My name is Pamela Smart. I have been portrayed as Black Widow, Ice Princess, a killer, and none of those things could be further from the truth. Just to be clear, did you mastermind the murder against your husband? No, I did not. That was then. This is now, and this is new, just this summer. I found myself I was self-responsible for something I desperately didn't want to be responsible for. This story had it all. A beautiful young woman, a seductress of a young teenage boy. Perhaps most importantly, murder. Pam, did you have anything to do with your husband's murder? People were asking why this happened and why Pam Smart could lure a young man into killing for her. I never would have done it if Pam didn't tell me to. She was the first girl I ever loved. I pulled the trigger. God, forgive me. Your trial defined media frenzy. This was the first trial to be broadcast live from start to finish before OJ, before the Menendez brothers. It was reality TV before there was reality TV. So when will it happen? It gets made into a movie, To Die For, which star, Joaquin Phoenix and Nicole Kidman.

Did you get the gun? No. A lot of people felt like they knew everything about me because they saw the movie. The boys who actually committed the murder are already free. How is it fair that someone who pulled the trigger is home and somebody else remains in prison? What do you think is your best hope for getting out? Will she do it now after everything else has failed? For me, that was really hard. We're going to sit here if that's okay. I know this is not your first rodeo. No, it's not. It was such a notorious crime that I was really intrigued when she agreed to a jailhouse interview, she had been maintaining her innocence for three decades.We're speeding?Move your light. We all wondered what it would be like to meet this woman, a woman that a jury was convinced had masterminded her husband's murder. It's been almost three decades, and it hurts. You talked about all that you've lost, including the potential to be a mom. Yeah, and that makes me sad because I love children. I wanted to be a mother, and now I've lost all my years. It seems like the whole world's passing by, and I'm still here.

Pamela was really the golden girl of true crime in the '90s. It was a story we had never really heard before. In the '90s, she was right up there with Tanya and Amy Fisher. This was the era of the bad girl, for sure. Right around this time is when you've Madonna doing Erotica and doing the sex book, and the idea that women are not the victims of sexual relationships, but they can put notches in the bedpost, same as men can. The reasons why the crime had taken place, the motivations, the passions that resulted in what happened, seemed to fascinate people. It all starts in Miami, Florida. My name is Diane Diamond. I am a veteran journalist reporter, and I've been covering the Pamela Smart case since the mid '90s. Pamela is one of three children. She has a sister and a brother. Her mother, a homemaker who took homemaking very seriously. She was always there. When we had a problem, we didn't have to wait till she came home from work because she was home. My husband was a pilot. Pam loved being with dad. She very close to him. She was very happy. She was a sweet child.

She had a lot of friends. Happy-go-lucky. I think so, yes. Then her family moved to New Hampshire. This is the American dream. A low crime rate, beautiful parks, greenery. People are friendly. Then came time for college. Pam Smart decides to return to Florida, and she enrolls at FSU. When I went to college, I worked three jobs, 52 hours a week, and graduated from college a year early. Pamela Smart was an overachiever. She received a degree in Communication Arts, and her goal was to be a television news reporter. My aspiration was to be a journalist and to be in the media. She wanted to be another Barbara Walters. Didn't we all? Don't touch that dial. You're listening to WBFS Tallahassee 89.7 FM. She was a DJ on the college radio station, and she hosted not one but two different radio shows. I did The Rock Show. At night. She loved Van Halen. She loved Motley Crue. She had a look at kill. Her moniker was the Maiden of Metal. I didn't go to college and go out partying. I worked all the time. So you skipped adolescence? I skipped relationships. I had no boyfriend in college until I met my husband, and that was it.

In 1994, everybody wanted to hear from Pamela Smart. Okay. She gave her first interview to my colleague, Diane Sawyer. Well, no beepers are going to go off. Yeah, we're rolling. All right. How did you meet Greg Smart? I met Greg when I came home for Christmas during a break one year. Originally, I wasn't attracted to him, but I then became attracted to him. What about him? He was very outgoing and always smiling. He seemed to be around. He was a rocker. The long hair, the attitude. She loved him. She said, Mom, he's the one. We liked him, too. Greg of Ham Smart bonded over Van Halen songs like, You Really Got Me.. Hot for teacher. Greg seemed very glamorous to her. He had this magnificent head of hair. That's the guy Pam told me she fell in love with. So what does he do? He leaves town and moves to Florida to be with Pam. There's something very innocent and very normal and very sweet about it. They fell in love. They dated for a while. He came down to Florida to be with her. He wasn't interested in going to college. He was just interested in being with Pam.

It's a relationship that heats up lightning fast. But fizzles out almost as quickly. You would never know that in less than one year, Greg Smart would be murdered. Welcome for the very first time, Mr. And Mrs. Greg Smart. Greg and Pam got married on May seventh, 1989. We gave him a very beautiful one. We look forward to having grandchildren. Pam Smart was decked out like Princess Diana. The big poofy white wedding dress. He was handsome in a still gray tuxedo. When you look at the photographs and the video of that wedding, I don't know that I've seen a happier couple. I was only 21 years old when I got married. I was very much in love with my husband. I thought that Greg and I would have a fulfilling future, that we would have a family and children. Do you still feel married to your husband? I do. It's weird that you would ask me that because I was just filling out an application for something for in here yesterday, and it says, Are you married? And I put, Yes. And date of marriage, because I am still married. I'm widowed, but I'm still married.

The couple moved back to New Hampshire. They move into a very well-to-do neighborhood in a beautiful condominium. Derry, New Hampshire's nickname is the Spacetown. It's named because it was the home of Alan Shepard, the astronaut. The poet Robert Frost comes from there. Something we were withholding made us weak. Pamela got a job with the public school system, and she became the media liaison among about a dozen public schools. She's introducing students into television. She was able to write press releases. She was able to create content. This job, by no means, was what her career ambition was, but it was a stepping stone. I had a very good job. I made a lot of money for myself. I was 22 years old. I had a 40-something-year-old secretary. I had a job work. I had four weeks paid vacation, full medical dental, all of that. I was my own boss. I really made my own money. Greg settled down a little bit. He cut off his long hair. He went into the respectable insurance business with his father. So years later, when Pam Smart's case is so infamous, there are TV movies being made about it. There's a scene in murder in New Hampshire where Greg's haircut is made out to be the first sign of trouble.

I remember exactly filming that scene on the doorstep when Greg comes home. Pam looks at him and hardly recognizes him. He's shorn, he's cut everything off. And instead of being pleased, she's absolutely horrified. Hey, Tramp. What happened to your hair? The barber's still sweeping it up even as we speak. He's gotten a haircut because he's gotten a job. Horrified, she goes, You cut your hair. And he says, Pam, I may look like Donald Trump. But I still feel like Jon Bon Jovi. She may have dated a rocker, but she married an insurance agent. Real life sets in. He became an insurance salesman. She got a good job. Pretty soon, it was a routine. It seemed that this couple had everything going for them. Good jobs, a nice rented home, good furniture. They even had a little dog. So on the surface, it looks great. It's just not going to turn out that way. Greg was working a lot, and he would work at night, go to people's homes, pitch insurance policies, and Pam was left alone. When she first met her husband, he was a rocker rebel, which is why she was drawn to him.

And then after marriage, segued into this very traditional role. Her mother later told me that during this period, it seemed like Pam finally stopped focusing on just work and became more social, but a little immaturely social. She started to hang around with the high school students when she went to work every day. Greg's working all the time. Pamela is hanging out with teenagers. This marriage is getting bumpy. They were very young, which probably helped their marriage to deteriorate. Clearly, there was a dynamic that wasn't working. In her first year of marriage, her husband had come home and talked to her about having an affair, and I think it crushed her deeply. I was very much in love with my husband from the time he was my boyfriend through when he was my husband, and he had an affair. And when that happened, I was devastated. I thought there was something wrong with me. I thought that I wasn't good enough. So she was feeling like her husband had betrayed her. In that exclusive interview with Diane Sawyer, Pam Smart remembers the night her husband didn't come home from work. One night, I went to bed, and I was expecting to come home.

And when I woke the next morning, he wasn't there. He was out with a friend of his, and he had been drinking, so he decided to stay at his house. And it turns out that that wasn't what happened. What did happen? He had met someone, and he had stayed with her the night. Was he sorry? Was it a fight? What happened? I was very angry, and I was very hurt. Did it change the marriage? Well, I believe it made me less trustworthy. It had an effect on my self-esteem. I had thought originally that it was just he and I, and now I realized that someone could come between that, and I was scared of that. When he cheated on her, it obviously broke her heart and changed her, changed the marriage. That's the turning point in this story, his affair. Pam had no idea that a chance encounter was about to change her world forever. I fell in love with her. On May first, 1990, Pamela is at a school board meeting. She gets home about 10:00. She goes to the front door and she notices that the light is out. This is odd. And she opens the front door, and in the vestible is her husband.

She had arrived at her home and began screaming that there was something wrong with her husband. She starts banging on doors. Somebody call 911. A hurry, hurry. My husband, my husband. Derry emergency. Yes. Emergency in 4E. Ms. Summerhill condominium. There's someone passed out. I don't know. A girl is hysterical in here. She just ran over her husband. He's passed out. I was working as an investigative reporter in New Hampshire, and the scanner radio goes off, and we understand that a young man has been murdered inside his condominium. The telephone calls that came to the Derry Police Department all came from neighbors who heard her screaming and yelling. You know why he's passed out there, ma'am? He's on the way. Do you know why he's passed out? No, we don't know. Pamela is outside. She's sobbing. She wants to know what's going on. Is there a burglar in the house? Is Greg okay? Is he breathing? What's happening? Pam Smart found his body. He was in the entrance way to his condominium. He was sprawled out on the ground. The first thing that we noticed was the body of the victim, Gregory Smart. There appeared to be a blue towel wrap around his head.

He's got a bullet wound in the back of his head. This looks like a mob hit. This is an execution. Right away, police had no idea who could be responsible. In most cases, pretty quickly, the murders make sense. Somebody's involved in gangs or drugs, or there's a history of domestic dispute in their lives. In this case, here's this young man at the beginning of his life and career in insurance. He's not married a year yet to a lovely young woman, and he's dead. The police were groping for leads at the time. He had apparently expired. They determined almost immediately. Pam called the house, and she was hysterical, and she screamed into the phone, Mom, come quick. Greg did. And inside, I was troubling, and I thought, Well, maybe there's been an accident. People in that house that night told me that she was a wreck. She was an inconsolable mess. She did seem extremely shaken at the time, extremely emotionally distraught. She was soaking wet. Her clothing from sobbing. We were all a mess, saying, How, why? Is Is it true? In that first interview with Diane Sawyer, Pam talks about the tragic night. What happened to Greg is the most horrible thing I've ever gone through in my life.

I'm still haunted every day by memories of what must have happened to him inside our house before he was killed. And although I wasn't there, I feel that because of that, I'll never know how Greg was feeling at the time. I keep thinking of how afraid he must have been and how senseless this whole tragedy was. A lot of times, I still can't even believe that he's gone. Greg Smart still has on the clothes from work. It looks like Greg must have walked into the middle of a botched, screwed-up burglary. We noticed that several things were moved. The stereo system had been ransacked. Cds were laying on the floor. Pillow cases had been ripped open. The stuffing had been removed. We found that the upstairs as well had been ransacked. The dressers had been gone through completely. However, Police find that Greg still has his wallet. He still has a gold wedding band on his hand. Pamela reported nothing much was missing except a few little pieces of her jewelry. This is not a usual burglary. Usually, The burglars in this region don't carry firearms or guns. They're not playing on any confrontation at all.

There was no forced entry at the front door or the back door. No signs, no disturbances of someone breaking in. Something just doesn't seem right here. Kitchen Chef's knife is stuck into the ground. He found a marijuana cigarette, a reefer in his car. So they think, Well, maybe there's drugs involved. Dead end. The The next lead is that Greg Byteve had a gambling problem. They search phone records and they find that he had been calling a gambling service. They go to Atlantic City. Maybe he owed somebody money. Again, dead end. Nothing there. Every single lead that we got, all of them led to dead ends. At that point, they really are searching and asking the public's help because they, frankly, don't have a break and they need one. A dead body killed execution style. That is a stunner for Derry, New Hampshire. Then a few days after Greg Smart's murder, something strange happens at his wake. A group of unidentified teenage boys show up, and everyone thinking, Who are those guys? And what's their connection to Greg? So after weeks of investigating by the police, and nothing is happening, nothing is popping, no new information, suddenly out of the blue.

A man walks into the police station with a 38 caliber revolver. And he says, This is my gun, and I think it was used in the Gregory Smart murder case. Part of me is missing, and that's Greg.It's gone forever.And you'll never be back. I remember it was a rather chilly day. It's always very cool in New England. But this day seemed colder. You have all these young people, and they're all crying. I didn't want to be covering this funeral. I didn't want to be anywhere near it. Throughout the day, I kept seeing he had this big, vibrant, beautiful smile. We can't sleep. I don't want to eat. I don't feel there's much left in my life. Pamela Smart is struggling, it seemed to me, to even make it down the walkway. She was crying so hard. It was a horrifically emotional moment. There is footage of me coming out of the funeral crying so bad that my father's holding me on one side and my sister's holding me on the other. And I did lose my husband that I did marry, and he did love me, and I loved him. There's no answers, and the police can't give them any answers.

And that made their grieving that much more difficult. He didn't deserve this. All I want is the people who did this sent to jail forever. All of these people are just shredded, just racked with emotion over this horrendous thing. Never forget this, it's just a few days after Greg's murder. And my news director goes, I guess you'll be interviewing Pamela Smart today, right? We'll have a story with you and her. And I'm like, Yeah, that's going to happen. He's just joking with me. And honest to God, three minutes later, over the loudspeaker, I hear, Bill Spencer, you have a phone call. It's Pamela Smart. Pam gave her first media interview to a local television reporter six days after Greg was murdered. She said she wanted to talk to me about the guy that Greg was. She wanted people to know the type of person he really was. At that time, she appears perfectly together. She has on a prim little outfit. Her makeup is perfect. I feel like in a whole condominium complex like ours, somebody must have seen or heard something. Everybody's saying they didn't hear or see anything. I keep thinking that I'll see him walk in.

But every day and every second that passes, I realized that that won't happen. And yesterday, I went out to the cemetery, and that's when it really hit me that he won't ever come back. She does appear introspective. She does appear to miss her husband. It's awful to just think about what happened in there. The only comfort I have is that it just seems to have been a situation where Greg didn't know what was happening. And he just never knew, and it was really quick. We usually don't like to bring animals or get dogs in your interview shot. But Pam invited Halen to come over. It's this little fuzzy dog, and We did the whole interview with Halen sitting right there next to us. She named her dog Halen because she was a Van Halen maniac. Sometimes I ask myself, I can't figure out where the strength is coming from, but it seems like it's coming from inside. Maybe it's a part of Greg that's helping me go on with everything. The interview comes and goes with no fuss, no new witnesses coming forward. Until The big break for police comes on June 10th, 1990, about six weeks after the murder.

Out of the blue. A grown man walks into the police station, but it's not the Derry police station. It's the Seabrook police station. It's about 40 miles away where in walks this man. He's carrying a handgun in his hand, and he says, This is my gun, and I think it was used in the Gregory Smart murder case. They immediately call the investigator investigators in, and this would turn out to be the major break in the story. And he proceeds to tell the investigators that he had this gun put away in his house, and when he went to retrieve it, it looked like it had been freshly cleaned, and he knew he had not cleaned it. So how did this happen? The man tells police that his son's friend, a teenager by the name of Ralph Welch, told him that the gun may have been used to kill Greg Smart. Police immediately get the gun. They do a ballistics comparison. The two bullets match up. The tests show that that gun is the weapon that killed Greg Smart. It is probably the most important physical piece of evidence they're going to find. This is big break for the police.

That very same day, June 10th, 1990, the police haul in that teenager, Ralph Welsh, for a videotaped interview. Okay, it's June 10th, and it's 15, 24 hours by my watch. I'm Detective Barry Cherewitz, and with me is Ralph Welsh. Ralph Welsh tells Detective Barry Cherowitz about a secret conversation he had with the son of the man who turned in that 38 caliber revolver. Turned in. And he told me the story, how it happened. Who was here. So police get Ralph Welch talking. And remember, he's a teenager talking to cops, and he spills it all. He told you the story about what? About how? He told me how they did it. How they did what? Killed Greg Smart. Ralph Welch tells police about learning of three teenage boys who went to Greg Smart's house that night with the intent to murder him. These are the three boys that Welch names in that interview, Billy Flynn, Pete Randall, and Vance, a. K. A. J. R. Latame. It's especially startling because they're just high school kids. Latame supposedly waited in the getaway car. So they went there and they broke into the place. And they set it up to make it look like a burgerly.

And I guess the guy tried to run or something, and they grabbed him, they threw his dog in the cellar. He said he held the guy's head while Bill shot him. The juveniles that were involved in the murder, beginning with Billy Flynn, all of them had specific problems in their lives or with the police, too. The Seabrook police, they were familiar with the kids involved already. So Peter was the one that shot him? No. Peter said he held his head. Did he say how he held his head? No, he just said he held it. He built a little trigger. But why? What was the alleged motive? Welch seemed to know that, too. Did they tell you anything else about it? This was, we get some insurance money or something. This is just what they said from Pam, like 500 or something. And you say $500. Is that what Pam was paying them? That's what they said she was going to pay. And you're talking about Pam. Who's Pam? The guy's housewife. Okay. Pam Smart. Ralph Welsh is the first one who mentions Pam Smart's name. Did Pam pay him anything else? No, he just said something about insurance money or something.

He mentioned $500 a piece. This videotaped interview with Ralph Welch blows the lid off the case. As police begin to dig, a clue may lie in, of all places, an amateur orange juice commercial that Pam helped some of the high school students produce. Since the beginning of time, man has enjoyed the taste of pure and natural Florida orange juice. The police have finally got a direction in which to take investigation. This was to be getting some insurance money or something. It didn't pay him like 500. This explosive videotaped interview gives police a clear motive and implicates Pamela Smart in her husband's murder. Yet it comes as no surprise to police who already think that Pam has been acting bizarrely from the moment they started talking to her. We met with her in an interview room, and she began immediately to tell us when she opened up the door. She saw that this must have been a burglary because there were speakers off a stand. It seemed strange that she had keyed in on speakers missing from a stand. It seemed at the time that her focus should have been on her husband who was laying there.

Police noticed that Pam didn't seem to be very emotional when they finally got a chance to interview her just hours after her husband had been murdered. You weren't emotive enough for people's taste. Yes. What do you make of all Well, I wasn't very emotional. I think I was in shock. You were the ice princess. Right. And I think that people's perception is interesting because I was watching something where it was JFK's funeral, and Jackie Kennedy, Onassis, was standing there, and she never shed a tear. And everyone was like, She's so stoic. Nobody said she was an ice princess. There was no proof that Pamela Smart had anything to do with this. But her actions really did make a lot of people, including investigators, step back and say, Wait a minute. Does she have something to do with this? My law enforcement friends told me that after I interviewed Pam Smart, that she became even more of a prominent suspect in their eyes because of what she said in that interview, and they said specifically, she talked about things that she couldn't have known about. It just seems to have been a situation where Greg didn't know what was happening.

She knew critical factors about what that crime scene looked like. How could she talk about what this apartment looked like when she wasn't allowed in there? And I expected that she would be breaking down, and yet that emotion never came. Sometimes I ask myself, I can't figure out where the strength is coming from. But the weirdest part of the interview was we were talking about Greg, and she said something to the effect of, If you think about it, this couldn't have happened at a better time. There's no better time in his life for this to happen. And I said, What? This couldn't have happened at a better time because if you think about it, had we been married for 20 years, I would have loved him that much more. I couldn't wrap my mind around that. When the murder first happened, you brought the media into your home and gave interviews. Well, no, I talked to one person, Phil Spencer, and he was hounding every day, calling us, saying that he was running with a story that Greg owed gambling debts in Atlantic City, and he owed money to the Mafia. They were saying, Are you going to give us a comment?

Because if you're not going to give us a comment, we're running with this story. And it was like, wait a minute. My husband's not even buried. What do you mean you're running with this story? Because we went to Atlantic City a lot, but he didn't owe anybody any money, and he wasn't killed because of that. I was pressured basically to try to defend him. So I did. I wouldn't say I pressured Pamela Smart into doing that interview at all. That call came to me. I didn't make the call to her that morning. She called me. Pam has an answer for everything the police called suspicious. So who do you believe? The police definitely don't believe Pam Smart. There's a whole lot of smoke, but no fire yet. They have the videotaped interview from high school kid who said she offered $500 for murder. They find her interview peculiar, but none of this adds up to murder until they make a stunning connection. So these boys, it turns out, are students at the same school where Pam Smart works. Not only do these kids go to Winnicott High School where Pamela Smart works. She's close to them because she's working on a school project with them.

Now there's a connection. There's a connection between the gun, the three boys, and Pamela Smart. Pam meets Billy Flynn through this project esteem that she is running at Winnicott High School, where she talks to teenagers about their troubles and tries to help them with their issues. There's a gigantic dichotomy between Derry, New Hampshire, where Pamela Smart lives, and Seabrook, where Billy Flynn and these boys lived. Seabrook is a gritty working class area. And in comes Pamela Smart, and she must have seemed like a fairy princess. Billy Flynn is 16 years old. He's attending Winnicott High School. He plays guitar. He wants to be a rock musician. There's nothing imposing about this guy. He's a skinny, guitar-playing teenager. I met Bill, who was making me feel like I was the greatest thing on the Earth. He was charming. He was. And I guess at that point, I was so low that I needed that boost. You were vulnerable. Yeah, I was. Pam learned about a contest for high school kids in which they made a commercial about orange juice. So she got the kids together and said, Hey, you can win a trip to Disneyland if you want to make this commercial.

Pam already knows Billy because she's in this project self-esteem with him, and she asked him to be the cameraman. This put Pam and Billy in very close proximity. She directed it. He wrote the music for the commercial. We still need energy and vitamin D to keep in shape and stay healthy. My friends and I start out today. The Florida Orange She's your Christian, no way. I meet Pam Smart, and she's beautiful. She's intelligent. She's an adult, and she likes me. As the police begin to dig, they can't help but wonder about the strange hold that Pamela Smart has on these teenage boys, especially the long-haired kid, Billy Flynn. The cops soon discover that Pamela Smart has been having an ongoing illicit affair with her teenage student, Billy Flynn. But another student from that very same high school is about to betray Pam with a secret recording. I'm afraid, Wendy, you're going to come in here, you're going to be fired by the police, and I'm going to be busted. Black widow jailed for squalid murder. It seems like the whole world's passing by, and I'm still here. They have a 22-year-old woman who's having an affair with a 16-year-old boy, and that boy is tied to the murder weapon.

This young boy who was having an affair with her believes that she has told him that the only way we be together is if you kill my husband. We'll act like I just used him, went larking through the school, looking for somebody to manipulate. And it just really wasn't even like that. Decades of denials, but now, new just this summer, a last-ditch effort to change the narrative. It really boils down to this. Pam Smart is asking for the opportunity, the chance, to express remorse and to discuss her transformation over 34 years from a 22-year-old to a thoughtful, accomplished, mature 56-year-old woman. A lot of people felt like they knew everything about me because they saw the movie. Did you get the gun? No. I had to acknowledge for the first time in my own mind, in my own heart, how responsible I was because I had deflected blame all the time. It makes the headlines when three teams are arrested in the murder of Greg Smart: Billy Flynn, Vance Latame, and Pete Randall. The police have now identified the murder weapon, and they trace it back to those three boys. This is what enabled them basically to get these arrest warrants.

There is a fourth suspect. Raymond Fowler was in the getaway car. Fowler ended up being charged. But other than being in the wrong place at the wrong time, he seemingly did not have much to do with the murder itself. Remember, police had been told that these boys were mere ponds and that Pam Smart had put them all up to it. But what was the motive? Why would they kill Smart? I'm going to go straight to Pam's condominium and get her reaction. I'm totally devastated by this. I can't comment. I was boggled by her reaction. Wait a minute. They've solved your husband's murder, and you're distraught? I thought, Oh, my God, they had the wrong person. You thought Billy was innocent? I thought there was no way. These three teenagers are in custody, but they are not talking to the police. Normally, you get three teens that are arrested for something this serious. One or all of them are going to sing. They're going to tell exactly what happened because they're teenagers. And then, out of the blue, a break in the case. Police actually get an anonymous phone call. This is Detective Pelletier. A young man killed a couple of weeks ago in his home.

From what I have heard, the wife had planned it. She said the woman had planned it, and there was someone that knows all about this, and her name is Cecilia pierce. Cecilia pierce is a teenager who goes to W cut at high school. She is the intern of Pamela Smart. They had worked together on that OJ video. We still need energy and vitamin D to keep in shape and stay healthy. Police interview with Cecilia, and that recording appeared in a documentary for Discovery ID called Pamela Smart: An American murder mystery. What a relationship do you have with Pam? We're close. She's calling her Big Sister. The revelations she makes are stunning. They were friends, and then they were having an affair. How did you find out about the affair? Pam told me that she was in the middle of a bill, and I didn't see anything on the text because I weren't in. Bill Flynn was a juvenile, just 16 years old. Cecilia tells police that one night, she Billy Flynn and Pam Smart are watching a movie nine and a half weeks. During the movie, Pam Smart and Billy Flynn go upstairs. Cecilia follows and actually walks in on the two having sex.

This is a bombshell. Imagine what the police are thinking at this point. They have a 22-year-old woman who's having an affair with a 16-year-old boy, and that boy is tied to the murder weapon that was used to kill the woman's husband. These are big pieces of a puzzle they're putting together here. You were technically an adult, and he was underage. Absolutely. That relationship seems predatory story. It was totally wrong. It was actually very difficult because I had feelings for my husband. I loved him, and I also had developed feelings for Bill. And I knew that I couldn't continue like this. It wasn't going to work like this forever. It was only a short relationship. You've had several bombshells in this case, but another one is about to explode. Cecilia reveals that she has heard the whole story, the conversations between Billy Flynn and Pam, and that she has heard that Pam wanted to get rid of Greg. According to Cecilia pierce, Pamela Smart planned the entire murder. She's the mastermind. We're going to conduct an audio surveillance of when Pam was smart using a confidential informant. They decide to ask Cecilia to get wired up, wear a taping device under her clothes.

And she goes to visit Pam at her office. The trap is set. Will Pam fall in? Hi, how are you? Good. Cecilia tells Pam that the cops have called her in for questioning about the murder. Pretty much, they've established that, yeah, you had great help. Why, though? Because they can't think of any other reason why I've been on I would do it. Yeah, but even if I ask you to tell somebody, you have to be so deranged to say, Okay, I will. You know what I mean? Where if someone asked you to or not. As far as I can see it, Bill did it because he loved you. She doesn't break into tears. She doesn't deny Quiet. Nothing. That's very telling. Let me tell you how out of whack I was. The day before this, I had a lawyer, and he calls me up and he says, Whatever you do, don't talk to her because she's coming in and she's going to be wired. That's an astonishing admission. She says her lawyer warned her, Cecilia's dangerous. She could be wearing a wire if you talk to her. And yet she still does. I'm afraid, what if you're going to come in here, you're going to be wired.

I have a police that I'm afraid of police. You're not going to be busted. Give me some signal that has ever come down to me in your wires that you're going to hit me. Why would you need that if, in fact, you did have nothing to do with it and you weren't part of all of this? Now, remember, Cecilia acknowledges that she knew in advance about the murder. And that's when Pam issues what seems like an ominous warning. I'm just like a lion. I'm just telling you, if you tell the truth, then I mean, it's not to be a murder. All right? Now, I know you're going to be on the witness stand. I'm just going to put you on that and I'm going to say, Do you know? And then I'm going to say, No. Do Pam do this? No. If you tell the truth, you're probably going to be arrested. Pam is really concerned about Cecilia now, so she's telling Cecilia to basically lie. And if you're not arrested, you're going to have to go and you're going to have to send me to the police. You're going to have to send me to the police.

For the rest of our entire life. And unfortunately, that's the situation you're in.It sounds like you're admitting something. It does. My great brilliant idea that I had was that I was going to go in and have these conversations with her to make her feel more comfortable so she could tell me whatever she was going to tell me. All I wanted to know was, did this guy really kill my husband? Because more than anything, I wanted this not to be true because I felt responsible. Ultimately, the wire that Cecilia Pears wore became the reason the police were able to go and arrest Pamela Smart. The good news is we've got the person that murdered your husband. The bad news is it's you. You're under arrest. It is August first, 1990. Time is 10:00 AM. Seabrook, New Hampshire. We're about to do a one-party consent via telephone between Cecilia pierce and Pam Smart. Police are now ready to arrest Pam Smart, But first, they have Cecilia call her at her office one last time. Hey, there, sir. Hi. Cecilia? Yeah. What's going I don't know. I was just thinking of you this morning. On that call, Pam does confess to feeling guilty about something.

She says she's feeling real remorse, but it doesn't have anything to do with her husband. You should have seen me when I hit a rabbit. I couldn't avoid it. It came totally bouncing out of the road. I felt like... Overkill in a rabbit? Yeah. Well, it's road kill. I can't believe that you felt bad about when I know from a rabbit, but not about break. I do feel bad about break, but I feel bad about the rabbit, too. That afternoon, the police arrive at Pam's office, and she has a lot more to answer for than running over a rabbit. Exactly three months from the day that her husband was murdered on August first, 1990, the police finally arrest Pamela Smart. Pam, did you have anything to do with your husband's murder? I was really not worried about it because I knew that I hadn't done anything wrong. I'm thinking this is going to get straightened out. She was charged with accomplice to first-degree murder. But at this point, the case against Pam is entirely circumstantial. The boys are in custody, but they are refusing to speak. They have convinced themselves that they will go free once they turn 18 if they just keep their mouth shut.

They suddenly learn the prosecutors are telling them that it doesn't matter that you're teenagers. We are going to try you as adults. They were looking at a lifetime in the penitentiary. Suddenly, they got very chatty. They changed and they became her accuser, and she became the person who planned it all. Then they were able to make a deal with the prosecution for lighter sentences. Sometimes to put the devil in jail, you got to go to hell to get your witnesses. My name is Paul Mangiano. I'm an assistant attorney general. We're going to tell you that he had a... That him and Pam would get a divorce. That Pam would get nothing, and had no care, treated her lousy. Just there was no way that Bill would be able to get in a relationship was great, all right? My recollection of Vance Lade to me wasn't the sharpest knife in the drawer. You had to sit there and wonder, how did you let yourself get involved in this? But he was extremely loyal to Bill. Did you ever go and answer my thoughts with that plan? Yeah. When he... How did you let yourself get involved in this?

But he was extremely loyal to Bill. Did you ever go to Vance Ladomy? Yeah. When he... When he... She was on the telephone. We should put the phone on speakerphone so everybody could hear. She was in a fight with her husband, Greg, and they were screaming back and forth, and they hung in. She says it felt nice. You know what I mean? I had it done. You listened to those interrogations, and you're struck by how they say Pam was just determined to get this done. How often would you talk to Pam about doing it? She made up her voice every day. She said, You gave it up. She started yelling at me. She's saying, Well, if you're never going to do this, I want to know right now so we can image right now because I don't want to Billy Flynn comes across as a kid trying to act like a man because he's in a man's relationship with Pam Smart. I think he wants to stand up and prove to her that he's that guy. But finally, police get down to the deed itself in the interrogation room. What did you expect me to get hands-off?

I was told that I'd get $500. Did the bill tell you where the $500 was in the He said it was going to be done on a spot. Do you know how much the transfer is supposed to be in the area? $140,000. So a lot was made of this $140,000 insurance policy, that this was about sex and greed. Right. Which makes no sense whatsoever, because I had a very good job. I made a lot of money for myself at that age that I was. I mean, I guess everybody needs money, but I really made my own money. The The teens lay it all out. They say Pam told them to ransack the house and make it look like a robbery. Hey, gentlemen, is there any conversation about the gun? Yes, we have it. And Phil said, yes. The teen's interrogation tapes were textbook, classic. They revealed every detail. So did they concoct this as teenagers frequently do, to to protect each other? Yeah, it wasn't us. It was Pam. Or did Pam really help them? Was she the mastermind of this whole conspiracy to murder plot? So now, since the boys have turned, they have enough to take it to trial.

The trial was a sensation. The local station, WMUR, starts to preempt soap operas to cover this trial because what they have is a soap opera taking place in the courtroom. Spectators have been arriving shortly after midnight just to get a seat. What were you doing with your right-hand? I had a knife in it. What happened next? I was supposed to cut a spell. 1990, that means we got the hair bands beginning to give way to grunge out of Seattle, bands like Nervana. Shows like Cheers were popular. It's a dog eat, dog world, Sammy, and I'm wearing milkstone underwear. In New Hampshire, the local station WMUR starts to preempt soap operas to cover this trial. I dreamt I spent the entire evening with my sexy, gorgeous husband. Testimony is about to be stated with truth, the whole truth, and nothing left. It's a happy surprise. I do. Because what they have is a soap opera taking place in a courtroom. The case had all of those elements, sex, and betrayal, and murder. The trial was a sensation in in part because it was at the dawn of cameras being in the courtroom. And so people could tune into their local station in New Hampshire.

Watch wall-to-wall coverage. It ushered in a whole new era, a whole new genre for TV, court trials. And before you know it, it becomes nationwide news. The media coverage was intense. In New Hampshire, Pamela Smart is on trial in what seems like the plot to a very bad movie. It was a tsunami of attention. Most of it was negative. Many people, very likely, had already formed an opinion of Pam Smart before the trial ever started. We did not have a jury that was sequestered, so naturally, we were concerned that they were going to be affected. Ladies and gentlemen, it was that woman who initiated, orchestrated, and directed with a plan to kill her husband. According to the state, Billy Flynn committed murder because Pam Smart put him up to it, luring him with money and sex. But according to the defense, Billy Flynn committed murder out of a jealous rage. What will be coming before you from prosecution witnesses will probably be one of the most vile concoctions ever assembled in one courtroom in the state of New Hampshire. The main takeaway that we wanted the jury to get is that the state of New Hampshire made a deal with the devil.

The prosecutor made a plea deal agreement with Pete Randall and Billy Flynn, the two who had actually committed the murder. J. R. Latame, who was the getaway driver, also cut a deal. By pleading guilty and agreeing to testify, they had a chance at getting out of jail someday, and they took it. Nice clear voice. Would you please state your name so that everyone in the jury box can hear it? Patrick Allen Randall. Randall came across as a little more matter of fact. Some people describe it as cold. I'd like to call your attention to make first, 1990. Can you tell me what you did after school? I went to Haverhill to pick up Jazz's grandmother's car in order to go to Derry to kill Gregory Smart. The goal is to show that Pamela Smart, with evidence beyond a reasonable doubt, masterminded this murder. Can you tell us what you said to the defendant and what she said to you? She told me that she think the back door is unlocked, not to hurt her dog, and that we could ran sac the apartment, the condo, take what we wanted, and wait for Greg to come home, and when Greg came home, we were to kill him.

What else was said at that time? I felt that staffing Greg would be a lot easier than shooting him and told me that if I was to stab him, he'd probably get blood everywhere, and not to get blood on the sofa. It was downright strange to listen to him describe so matter-of-factly, so unemotionally, him participating in the killing of Greg Smart. When Greg came into the door, he opened up the door and called to his dad. And Joe grabbed him, pulled him in to the house, and he was screaming and trying to run out. He switched and started asking about his dog. Just told him his dog was okay. Don't worry, your dog. No one hurt your dog. Randall says he then holds a knife to Greg's throat and orders him to hand over the wedding ring he's wearing. He told me you couldn't give it to me. Why? He said his wife would kill him. He just looked sinister. You know how a shark, his eyes don't look like they're living. It looks like he's dead. What happened next? I was supposed to cut his throat. Did you at that time? No, I did not.

Why not? I couldn't do it. Why couldn't you do it? Because of some of the things he said and because I couldn't do it. What happened after that? Bill took the gun out, shot him. He certainly came across as someone who didn't seem as bothered as you might think he would be for having been involved in this crime. What was your motivation to take me part in this murder? Bill was my friend, and I didn't want to see him get caught for committing murder. And there were financial gains. Your peers have a huge influence on what you do and don't do. But Billy was probably admired. The power of teen friendships is very strong. You get a bunch of misguided guided kids who feel like they've shown up for one another, that they're helping one another. They may not truly understand that committing homicide crosses a line that should never be house. State calls Vance Ladamey. Ladamey was a bit different in that he wasn't there for the actual murder. He was in the car outside. Pam had asked, How should she react if she comes home with fines during dead? She had asked whether she should scream, run house to house, or just running to call the police.

How should she should react. You get a sense of just how amateurish these teens were. Ladame made fawn of Randall and Flynn for buying latex gloves that were too thin to even hide their fingerprints. And why was that funny? Because I figured Carlos Flynn, he was supposedly doing this murder early on so bad. He had to bet his gloves on them. He said to stop at the store and put Scott's teeth around each of their fingers, and then put the gloves on, on the teeth, to prevent fingerprints. You know, in every big trial, there's that one aha moment, the moment everybody remembers with Simpson, it was the glove. In this case, it was Pam Smart in a white strapless bikini, posing suggestively on a bet. While Pamela Smart was the big draw today, the case against her was built on the testimony of several teenagers. Would you please state your name William Flynn. Aldi, Mr. Flynn. 16. Groupies of the Pamela Smart trial camp out for hours. If this story were a made for TV movie, and it surely will be, you might not believe it. Nobody really understands that these guys were not angels.

Bear in mind, Billy Flynn's sidekick, Pete Randall, was involved in several thefts, and Billy himself admitted to burglary. When Billy Flynn took the stand, he seemed to be every bit the innocent virgin that the prosecution painted him in the opening statements. He tells me the first time he was ever visit. She was saying, Are you going to kiss me? I said, Yeah. She said, Well, do I have to call that a raker? I said, Yeah. Basically, if you believed Billy Flynn, you didn't need anything else. Now, can you go take us back to her driving you home that night? What happened? She started crying. When I got me upset, she was saying that the only way we could be able to be together is if we killed Greg. Bill Flynn is supposed to be so innocent that he was manipulated by me, right? But at the same time, he was smart enough to manipulate his friends, to go kill a person they've never even met. She said, Anybody that help you can have anything in the house because she's insured. The camera's here, it's the same. Both days she leaves. And where did the defendant say she'd be?

Me. I said she had an hour. I wanted to get up and say, Stop lying. You think he lied to get a lesser sentence? Absolutely. Yeah, I know he lied. You know, in every big trial, there's that one aha moment, the moment everybody remembers. With Simpson, it was the glove. In this case, it was Pam Smart in a white strapless bikini, posing suggestively on a bed. As if this super sensational trial isn't crazy enough already. My God. They were made between her and a friend, a girlfriend, for a modeling contest. They took photos of each other. Those photographs made it into court, and the prosecution claimed that she had deliberately taken those to be seductive, to get Billy Flynn to do her bidding, to kill her husband. She said she didn't want them. She's just going to throw them out. If I wanted them, I could have them. When those photographs come in, you can see it was overwhelming for a teenage boy. This was a lot of sex for a 16-year-old to have. You can get that sense that it had a lot of influence on him, a lot of power over him, enough to make him kill.

The prosecution said, See, here's more examples of Pam using her wiles to keep this boy besotted by her. Not at all. Pam's side of the story is that she denies ever letting Flynn see those photos. Of all the people that took the witness stand, I think people were more moved by Billy Flynn than anyone else. I heard a great walking up towards the door. How was it that he overpowered? Well, he wasn't struggling very much. He was just asking. What was going on? What did you tell him? I just told him to shut up. I took the gun out of my pocket. Then what happened? I caught the hammer back, and I pointed the gun at his head. After you pointed the gun at his head, what did you do? I just stood there. How long was it? A hundred years, it seems like. I said, God, forgive me. You said, God, forgive me. What happened? I pulled the trigger. He started crying, and I'm looking at the jury, and I'm seeing that it looks like they feel sorry for him. I wanted to scream. When he killed somebody, a defenseless man on his knees, execution style, yet he became sympathetic on that stand because he was so young, so emotional, and Pam Smart is sitting over at that defense table.

She is the orchestrator. This was just a spawn. Okay, so you're saying that Pam made you kill Greg? I performed the act, yes, but I never would have done it if Pam didn't tell me to. You were just like a machine or something like that? She was the first girl I ever loved. Now it's the defense's turn to make their case. And in a bold move, they put Pamela Smart herself on the stand. The courtroom was hushed. She was, again, dressed in her prim proper little outfit with her hair done perfectly with a big bow. Where is your record? She was insistent upon taking the stand. Pamela and Smart. To make sure the jury know that she did not kill her husband. Why did you marry Greg Smart? Because I loved him. I wanted to spend the The best of my life with him. Did you have any problems with him? Greg didn't come home one night. He told me that he had been with someone else. How did he react? Mad. Because she had no expression, was immediately convicted as a nice princess and a cold-blooded killer. Maybe if Pam had cried, things would be different.

The defense argument was that Pamela Pamela Smart fully admitted she had an affair with a teenage boy. Well, I didn't set out to have an affair with him, but I did. Pamela Smart had broken the affair off, and he got mad, and that was his retribution to kill her husband in cold blood. I told him that I didn't want to have a relationship with him anymore, and he started crying, and he said that he couldn't live without me. It's a huge risk in any trial for the defendant to take the witness stand because you're then subject to cross-examination by people who do it for a living. You said when you heard Bill Flynn was arrested, you said, Oh, my God, they heard about the affair, they arrested the wrong person. Of course, you went right to the police to straighten that out, didn't you? No, because I thought if the police knew that I had an affair with Bill, then they would automatically conclude that I was involved in the murder. And also the police never asked me. Oh, they didn't ask you? I believe it was a huge mistake to put Pam Smart on the stand.

She was destroyed. She was torpedoed on cross-examination. You made a lot of mistakes so far, Ms. King. I sure have. Yes, I have. Was killing your husband one of those mistakes? No, it wasn't. You got to be even divorced. Maybe that was one of the mistakes. You should have gotten divorced, but you didn't. No, I didn't want to get divorced. Would the defendant please rise and face the jury? I felt like the jury was either going to be hung or they were going to find me guilty. I thought there was no chance at that point that the jury was going to say I was innocent. Jury number one, is the defendant guilty or not guilty? The verdict that's about to be handed down would be swift. The punishment, severe. And yet three years later, it was still must-see TV when Diane Sawyer landed the only interview with the trigger man himself, Billy Flynn. Bill Flynn, we asked him if there were one question he could ask you. I think I know what it's going to be. Wait, what do you think it's going to be? Would you please rise, and add a front, Please stand.

Has a jury reached a verdict on each of the three offenses charged? Yes or no. The adrenaline starts running through your body and your heart's pumping. After 13 hours of deliberation, it all came down to this. That's not that long. You Usually, quick verdicts mean a jury's going to quit. I'll say it was the defendant guilty or not guilty of the offense charged. Guilty. Greg Smart's family led out a howl. On Pam's side of the courtroom, her parents just sat in deathly silence, crushed. She went from finding out whether she was guilty or innocent to being sentenced within a matter of minutes. I am required and do hereby I'll sentence you to the New Hampshire State Prison for Women for the remainder of your life without the possibility of parole. Mr. Smart, you're in the custody of the Sheriff. This hearing is ajourned. Our feelings were overjoyed. I just don't know how to explain it. I wanted to scream and holler and jump and everything. The entire Smart family went to Greg's grave, and they knelt by the grave, and they formed a circle, and they told them it was finally over, that Pam had been convicted, and She was going to go to prison.

I remember Diane Sawyer interviewed Pamela Smart, and I was riveted. Tonight, Pamela Smart, her first interview since the arrest. Even four years after the murder, the country was still transfixed. I didn't really consider Bill to be a kid. I guess age-wise, he was. But at the time, I just felt that he was more mature. She also got the only interview ever with Billy Flynn. I was still in love with Pam. That trial was one of the hardest things I've ever done in my life, ever. I guess it's hard for a lot of people to think that you could do something like that for love. That was the whole world to me back then. I fell in love with her. Then she was really all I had. If you're in the hands of somebody who's older, they're going to have power to manipulate and to guide. And you can't always trust that. They're just not old enough to make that decision. The frontal cortex is not fully developed yet, so their ability to really think through consequences for their choices is not in place. Perhaps the most memorable moment in the Diane Sawyer special is when she tells Pam Smart about a revealing question she asked Billy Flynn.

We asked him if there were one question he could ask you, what it would be. And here's what he said. I think I know what it's going to be. Wait. What do you think it's going to be? Did you really love me? No. If you could ask her one question, what would it be? Whether or not she really ever loved me. In hindsight, that might not seem like a very big deal to most people, but knowing that she had do this and that I did go through with it and that she never really loved me would probably kill me. Yes, I did. I think I did really love him. If I were to ask you that question again now, is there a more nuanced answer? Did you love him? I feel like I loved him. I cared for him. I had feelings. People I just used him and went larking through the school looking for somebody to manipulate. And it just really wasn't even like that. For this broadcast, her mother, Linda Wojis, traveled to New York as part of her never-ending quest to win her daughter's freedom. You've been a tireless advocate. You would be, too, I would hope.

Do you think your daughter had a fair trial? No. Why? The three things you're supposed to do from the US Supreme Court, when you have publicity attendant to her, like as in her trial, 1,200 newspaper articles screaming her guilt, that you'll put in safeguards. Stay the trial while the publicity abates. You change the in you, and you sequestered the jury. Judge gray refused, motion after motion, to do any of that. I don't think it was necessary. I don't know about everybody else, but I got the sense that 12 good people told not to watch TV can pull that feet off without much difficulty. The reality is, however, that no matter where you try Pam Smart, a jury will likely convict her based on the evidence. She tried the appeals process. She exhausted every appeal. Remember Pamela Smart? Today, the US Supreme Court turned down her final appeal. What happened with Pam is that people see her as having committed a sin more than a crime. Her sin was the affair with a young boy. Pam's advocates, and a growing course of feminists believe that Pam Smart got a raw deal because she's a woman. It's an old, old sin.

And it's the same one that goes back to Adam and Eve, where Adam plea bargains with God and gets a reduced sentence, and Eve gets the book thrown at her. Pamela Smart has now been in jail for nearly three decades, but the boys finish serving their time. It made me sick knowing that these kids were going to get out of jail long before Pam Smart ever would. In my mind, they were more guilty than she was. I mean, these are some bad people. Even if you believe she's guilty, which I don't, the actual killers who said, Yes, we murdered him, are walking around and having their lives, and she deserves better. Pam said to me, You know, Mom, El Chapo has the same sentence I do. It's one thing for Pam's mom to rail against the sentence, but you might be surprised what the prosecutor who put her in prison thinks now. I'm not making a personal statement about Pam. What I'm saying is I don't know if it's fair for anybody who's been sentenced to life without parole to be in jail for the rest of their life. I don't know if that's fair.

Okay? There's a petition online. Clearly, you're never going to give up. No, I won't. I just hope God lets me live long enough to see her free. But now it seems Pam Smart walking free just might happen sooner than later, after all. My name is Pamela Smart. I've been incarcerated since 1990. Thanks to this stunning change of heart. I had to acknowledge for the first time in my own mind, in my own heart, how responsible I was. Pamela Smart is sent to prison. It winds up in Bedford Hills. Guess what movie they play for the inmates one night? Did you get the gun? No, not yet. To die for. And this fictionalized version of her life would now be taken as gospel. I just want to know when. Let's just do this. I don't know whenever. Jesus. Look, if you don't know, I guess I have to find somebody who does. She felt that she got a lot of attention and a lot of abuse in prison as a result of that movie, and people thinking they knew who she was. She was attacked by two inmates who thought she was a snitch. And They beat her and really harmed her permanently.

They fractured a orbital lobe in her eye. She's got a plate on the side of her face. It's been much easier for her in later years She has been a model prisoner in every way. She's tutored other prisoners. She's been part of the Ministry behind Bars. She's gotten two master's degrees. And in 2021, saying that she'd been fully rehabilitated, Smart petitioned the governor of New Hampshire, seeking a commutation of her sentence. Dear Governor Sunnu, without executive intervention, I will die in prison. I was struck by the letters of support, and then I got to the memo that she personally wrote. Although I never wanted nor asked Mr. Flynn to murder Greg. She claimed she had no involvement with his death. How do I trust someone who hasn't even come terms with her own responsibility for the death of her husband? The vote was for against giving her any sentence relief. Which brings us to Pam Smart's most recent effort, this video, released to the media earlier this summer, a new approach after 33 years. My name is Pamela Smart. I've been incarcerated since 1990. Taking responsibility. I found myself responsible for something I desperately didn't want to be responsible for, my husband's murder.

Pam, inside prison, began to undertake the really serious and hard work about taking stock of what led her to prison and also coming to grips with her own culpability, acknowledging her responsibility and saying, Look, my husband's death, it's my fault. I had to acknowledge for the first time in my own mind and my own heart how responsible I was because the truth of being so responsible was very difficult for me. Where is Pam Smart today? What has she changed? What has she improved? How has she made the case for her own commutation? And one of the things is her more public acknowledgement of responsibility. And I think that's important. I'm respectfully asking for the opportunity to come before you, the New Hampshire Executive Council, and have an honest conversation. There's a question of someone's remorse. There's a question of someone's responsibility. But there's also the question of who the person is today. It's a testament to her character, and she becomes a prime case for a sentence commutation. This is not someone who should perish in prison. Reacting to Smart's latest appeal, New Hampshire governor Chris Sunnu telling ABC News, New Hampshire's process for commutation or pardon requests is fair and thorough.

Pamela Smart will be given the same opportunity to petition the Council for a hearing as any other individual. What does redemption mean to you? It means that we don't define people by the very worst thing they've ever done in life. It means that people change, people grow, and they evolve over time. That's our program for tonight. Thanks so much for watching. I'm Deborah Roberts. And I'm David Muir from all of us here at 2020 and, in ABC News. Good night.