This is The Interrogation Tapes, a special series produced by ABC News Studios in partnership with 2020. I'm Deborah Roberts. Welcome to episode 4, The Sins of the Father. We'll listen in as detectives re examine two suspicious deaths and unlock decades of family secrets.

Interrogations that involve horrific crimes like this one, involve making a connection with a person who has done something horrible. It does take its toll. Come on.

You're this close, man. You're the closest you're going to be.

Not everybody can do those. 911, what's your emergency?

The truck's now on my stepson.

Is he breathing? No.

Never heard him?

You did. The truth is the truth. It will not change.

I walked in there and...

Holy... That's not what you told me the other day.

With an interrogation, you need to be adaptive, allowing it to go where the interviewee wants to go.

I went through the same thing when my wife died. When did you work? 1990.

Interrogations are a slow burn. Question after question, hour after hour in search for the truth.

Did you notice the pregnant pause where Carson's really weighing up. I mean, it's palpable. You can see the click, click, click, click, click.

This is very much a life-altering moment.

I've been honest with you about everything that You are feeling that pressure. The only way that we can help you is if you are cooperating with us.

If investigators are going to learn the truth, they're going to have to do it inside the interrogation room. My name is Ryan Smith. I've been a lawyer for well over 20 years, and I've studied criminal law and criminal cases for decades.

I'm Colton Seale. I'm a retired supervisory special agent for the FBI and spent my career all around the world for the FBI's counterterrorism division, Fly Team and ultimately the high-value detaining interrogation group.

My name is Laura Richards. I'm a criminal behavioral analyst. I'm the former head of the Homicide Prevention Unit and Sexual Offenses Section at New Scotland Yard, and I trained at the FBI Academy at in interviewing and interrogation techniques.

I've been in that room interviewing murderers who have done terrible things, but there's a life that led them to doing that thing. If as an interviewer, we can recognize what came before and who they are, it does create that potential to get what you need.

Oh, no, no, no, no. Okay. You guys don't know what happened that day. That was good. The day that my son died.

I first met Carl in November of 1992. It was at a line dancing club. He was very charming. He had been into raising horses with his father. They partnered together. I would say my biggest attraction to him was just the fact that he He was a single father to three children. And we were married in 1993.

In 2008, Carl's three children from his first marriage have grown up, and they've moved out of the house that Carl shares with Cindy. But his son, Levi, lives nearby, and one day, Levi comes over to work on his dad's old farm truck.

My aunt had passed away a couple of days before, and we were set to attend her funeral that day. And as we were leaving the house, Carl said he was going to go out and let Levi know we were leaving. And Carl came back a few minutes later, and we got in the car and left for four hours.

911, what's your emergency?

The truck fell on my stepson.

The truck fell on your stepson?

And we just got home, and I don't think he's alive.

Is he breathing?

No. Oh, my God.

Levi He's taken straight to the hospital where his doctor pronounces him dead at the hospital and signs off on the death as being an accident.

Levi is 23 years old at the time of his death. He was a good young man.

He married early, had two young daughters. The marriage didn't pan out.

In his teenage years, him and his father seemed to clash. Prior to Levi's death, his life was on an upswing. He was coming back to the farm more often. His relationship with Carl definitely improved, and they were getting along good. It was Shortly after Levi died that Carl had told me that Levi had had a life insurance policy. When I questioned Carl, Why were you a beneficiary? He had told me that because Levi was going through this nasty divorce.

Carl made it out to be that Levi didn't trust his ex-wife.

He trusted in his father to ensure that these girls were taken care of.

I just trusted my husband. There was no reason for me to question anything. It wasn't until a couple of years later, Carl started changing his story a little bit on how Levi's death happened, and then I started questioning things. And I I lived in denial for a while because I didn't want my white picket fence of this family that I had to be anything than what I thought it was. One night, I had called my cousin and told her my fears. I think Carl might have killed Levi. She said, Why would Carl kill Levi? There's nothing for him to gain from that. And I said, Yes, there was. He Cindy's cousin called in a concern that she had to the police.

This family member has got some suspicions, concerned that things just aren't ended up. So to further an investigation, we choose to reach out to Cindy Carlson.

The first thing she said, she said, Thank God you called.

And I remember just thinking, I'm going to get a recorder. I'm going to start recording my conversations with Carl. I told him that I needed a separation, and that I'd consider getting back together with him. If he came clean about every single thing he did during our marriage. And he actually confessed to me that he pushed the truck over on Levi. I took that recording to the police, and it was inaudible.

At this point, we decided to try and recreate it. We're going to pick a restaurant, and we're going to wire her up professionally and see if they can recreate this conversation. Cindy agreed to do it. We wouldn't have tried to talk her into it because it did put her at risk. I could tell she was very, very nervous, but she was also very determined.

The meeting set up for a restaurant outside of Seneca Falls with investigators and plain clothes sitting inside the restaurant nearby, ensuring that we have enough presence in case something bad happens.Hi.

Two.yeah..

You're up by the fireplace, Tara?

Where would you like to fix it? Over by the fireplace, that I think. This time now, he's very suspicious that I want to hear the same things that he said before.

Yes.

Part of me feels like I'm walking into a booby trap.

I was terrified that he was catching on to what I was doing.

Did I purpose to do?

No, not at all. Okay, can you just tell me what happened that day.

When I went in there, I jacked it up. And then it went off like, and then it walked.

And what? Then it slibbed. It slibbed? That's not what you told me the other day. Carl, you told me that you didn't set it up that way, but when you were in there, you saw the opportunity.

No. After it has happened, then I can't saw the opportunity.

I mean, did it hurt hard? No. I mean, you just had to bounce it? Yeah.

I mean, it's a lot. He clearly makes enough admissions that from a police point of view, it's pretty clear that he did this. But obviously, do we have enough to convince 12 jurors? We don't think so.

At that point, we had reached a tipping point. We knew the interview was going to be crucial in this case. So we had reached a point where we either got to push forward or back off. We decided that Investigator Tom Crowley and I, we would attempt to see if he would come down voluntarily. He did.

You confess to your wife. I lied to my wife. Which is not at all. I'm used here. Are you ever wired? Yes, we do. I thought you did.

It's all recorded. We agreed that Tom would start off as the lead, and I would observe, and then we could switch roles depending on who he responded to the most.

You guys don't know what happened that day. Tell us about it.

There's a lot that goes into an interview, an interrogation. The planning and the preparation prior is as critical as being in that room, if not more so.

Part of your plan is who is going to say what, when. I'm going to go down this road for a while. When we get here, I want you to come in to help take it this way.

Tell us about the day that my son died. Her and I, we had a funeral to go to. Left at 11:30, quarter of twelve, somewhere like that. It was on the other side of Sunnaker Lake. Son was there. He helped me. We were working on the truck, changing the transmission lines, break lines, the whole nine yards. Went in. Left. Went in. Went in to book garage. Okay. And so we got done with it. Talked to him, said goodbye. And so then we left, come back, a little after 4:00, and went out there and found him. And then we went to the hospital. Where did you find him? I found him dead. The truck was on him.

I mean, there's a lot in that section. I don't know whether you notice, but the dropping personal pronouns, or even when he talks about his son, he doesn't say my son. So when you drop a pronoun, it means that you're not invested in it. And he does that a number of times in that exchange. And then found him, and we went to the hospital. Right from the start, you've got some clear indicators of deception.

All right, let's play on.

A lot of people think they're involved in this. They think they took that insurance policy the hour, and that you did this for the money. I don't believe that. No.

By the time Cleary and Crowley bring Carlson in, they've done their homework, and they know this isn't the first time Carl has gotten a big insurance payout.

That was what. Think about it, though. Think about why you didn't think about it. Oh, I know. Believe me, I went through the same thing when my wife died. When did you work? 1990. He took Levi out? Yeah. This is Levi's bit. He took Levi out, ran around, got the girl back. She got to get in the house for her.

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In the course of investigating Levi's death, the team learned that Carl's first wife also died in a tragic accident.

My wife had passed away. Sorry to hear that. Was she ill? No, she died in a house phone. Things just aren't ended up. Wherever Carl goes, tragedy takes place, and financial payouts follow suit.

In 1991, Carl's living in the town of Murphy's, California, with his first wife, Christina. They'd been married seven years at that point, and they were raising three young kids. One of those kids was Levi.

My mom's name was Christina, but everybody was really close to her, called her Chris. There's a beautiful mommy over there. She didn't see bad in anyone, even though somebody could have done something horrific, she would find a way to find something positive about them.

Carl met his first wife, Christina, when he was in the Air Force.

It was amazing when my father wasn't home, But when he was home, it was very tense.

He just had a very aggressive personality, that personality that either my way or the highway. When things would get to the point where she felt she didn't want us to witness the arguments or the fights, she would request that they go back to the bedroom. But we heard. I heard.

That Christmas, Christina was getting ready to move out, take the kids with her, and just wanted to wait to get through the holidays.

And all through the hills, the rainforest were playing, enjoying the spills of skating and coasting and climbing the willows. Tell me what Santa Claus is doing.

Yeah, it's Christmas morning, 1990. We got a tree full of goodies here. A robot. A robot.

That was all from you, Santa Claus, huh? Chris, get out of the dinosaur talk. What is it, Chris? Hold them up, sugar.

Oh. Get it real close in.

We got a antique.

On January first, 1991, It was a day like any other. We were just playing around the house. Our mom got us ready to go down for our nap.

Christina was taking a bath while the kids were napping.

And I saw down the hallway. It was engulfed in flames.

I was at the barn, 200 yards away. And what woke my youngest daughter up is And my wife yelling my name. And by the time I got up there, it was just full of smoke. And the kids are smoking house. And my son had got to the window, and I got him by the hair.This is Wilma?Yeah. And chucked him up. And I got the girls. She was up in the bathroom.

Suspicious about how the fire started, Christina's cousins take extensive video of the ruins of the house.

This here is the bathroom.

Where Christina was found. Yeah. It's here. It's the bathroom where Christina was found.

Yeah, it's here. I guess the bathroom door is here. Why he didn't knock this out? Yeah.

He should have knocked it out.

There's no way she could have pulled it off.

Christina Carlson died of smoke inhalation on New Year's Day, 1991.

Well, the window was That thing was brought it was boarded up. You should have stood there at the asses. I went, I went. Did you board it up? What's that? Did you board it up? No, we had to because it was an overhead. The kerosine had got spilled here. That's where the ablation started.

And they say there was paper sitting on the kerosine.

There was a piece of cardboard.

Carl claimed the fire started when a work light fell over onto a kerosine-soaked carpet. But just like with Levi, there was a silver lining to this tragedy for Carl.

I got to ask because now it's bothered. That's fine. How much was your insurance anyway? 200 on her. There was insurance on all the kids. It was a- You insured your kids? Yeah, the wife's. There was a little insurance policy on each kid. Okay. That's dramatic loss that you would imagine. Yeah, she- Don't you have tax to go right now? You don't get over. You don't get over. Anything they said you do.

One thing became very clear, and he liked to talk about his favorite subject, which was How's the shoulder doing?

Well, it's supposed to. I had a staff infection in it. I had surgery February ninth, and February 11th, the staff infection started. How's it? I think that is down the road.

So with an interrogation, you need to be adaptive of allowing at different points the interrogation to go where the interviewee wants to go.

My feet went off this way, so I went like that, and it tore three of them.

Lieutenant Cleary lets Carson go into flow of telling him about his ailments, his back surgeries, all these things that have happened to him. And what he's really doing is holding space for him, building rapport.

Seemed to be good.

They have to feel supported and understood if you are going to get them to trust you enough to tell you their biggest secret that they've been hiding, sometimes for decades.

Lieutenant Cleary is doing a good job of allowing him that space, then we just move it back to where we need to be.

How long you want to be gone?

At this point, investigators turn the interrogation back to Levi.

Over four hours. Four hours. Four and a half, maybe a little longer. Think about that for a moment.

So Investigator Crowley wanted to see what would happen if we told him that, All right, We know the time of death, and it doesn't match up.

Do you know how accurate that could do with a cause of death, fixed on body temperature, and a certain temperature? All I know is what they tell me. It's accurate. Within what's 3, 15, 25 minutes Basically, or specifically, it was before he left, he died.

It was not true. In that case, there was no autopsy performed.

Investigators are allowed to lie to subjects. The risk in lying is if you don't have your facts completely right and the person figures out that you're lying to them, trust is gone.

I did not kill me.

He did bite on that. He went for it.

As the interrogation passes the three-hour mark.

There's nobody I could have.

Carlson's story changes for the first time.

If he was dead, he might not know.

The minute there's a new story, that's when Cleary knows he has him.

As the interrogation passes the three-hour mark, Carlson's story changes. He now says that when he and Cindy left for the funeral that day, Levi was already dead.

You can do it. You can do it. I couldn't even look at it. I couldn't. Let's talk about what happened. I walked in there, and holy shit. And I just went.

One of the things that we look for are what are known as self-handicapting strategies, a reason that somebody gives as to why they're unable to answer your questions, basically. So it could be, I was tired, I was drunk. In this case, Carlson says, I just blank. I just blanked. Therefore, you can ask me anything you want. I don't have to answer it.

How did you study your life? Why did you keep it a secret for so long? Can I get another glass of water? Okay.

He's just been asked, Why did you keep it a secret for so long? Which he doesn't have a plausible answer for that. So rather than answer that question, he diverts, says, Can I have a glass of water? He's stalling to try to come up with some plausible thing.

Lieutenant Cleary starts rubbing his shoulder, rubbing his back, reassuring him, he's comforting him, and he's trying to encourage him to say more.

I blame myself every day, just like you said.

Cleary was showing tactical empathy and compassion, no judgment on what Carlson was telling him in this new story that he's concocted, but he knows that it doesn't make sense.

We knew that he went to this funeral and this dinner afterwards. There's no way he did that knowing that his son was dead or dying on the floor. And function as a regular human being.

So you came in there and you found him dead. You went back out with Cindy and spent four and a half hours. And all I could do is just think about that. You don't know how hard it was. It just didn't happen. It was like...

Clary is doing a pretty good job there of developing the discrepancy, the difference between you just found your son dead, which would be incredibly traumatic for anybody. And the physiological response to that would not actually allow you to just go out and pretend that nothing happened for four and a half hours. So he's pointing out that that makes no sense. Help me understand this.

You have not told us to complete your- Yes, I did. 100 %. No, you didn't. I don't mean to say that. I can't say the picture. I respect you as a person or a man. Do you want more? I I can tell by looking at it. You're not a good lie. And I think that you told the truth of that, that Levi was dead when you were in there. But I think you're afraid to take that last legal fait. I did I did not kill my son.

Cleary and Crowley continue to press Carl, but he refuses to admit to killing Levi. Six hours in, Cleary decides to pass the baton to Jeff Arnold.

When you're in an interrogation, It's really easy to get tunnel vision. You're playing a chess game in progress. There's a lot of stress, a lot of tension. It's good to rotate sometimes because you need a break.

You need to step out?. Sure.

Your cognitive load is really high, which means you can't remember everything that was said. Somebody outside the room, they can actually make a lot more sense of what you're saying and what's working and what that isn't working.

While Investigator Arnold is doing his part of the interview with Carl, I'm in the monitor room watching what's going on, learning from that, and trying to put together a strategy when I go back in. Jeff had a different approach. He was more confrontational.

Did you call 911 for help? I didn't call for help. So he needed help. If you're his biological father and you don't give him help, what father are you? He to that. You don't give them help. You let them be clustered in there. You go back and go, Okay, honey, let's go in your uncle's funeral down in Pantian. And you get in that car and you drive. And you're unmotional. Drive him along, four and a half hours in there. You drive now. You drive back and you say, Showtime.

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Levi loved his daughters. They adored him, and he loved them. Levi had decided that, I'm done being rebellious. I want to be a parent to my children. He loved being a dad. He loved having his first daughter. The second one was a blessing for him. He was struggling at that point, financially, obviously, living on his own, but he was happy. He was happy with where he was at in life.

And you come back and you say, It's showtime for Carla to put on my show. My miraculously, I'm a liar show. And you will run back to the house and go, Oh, my God, Cindy, hurry call 911. They'll truck all over on your son. Well, you know that for four and a half followers. You want them to come out to your lifeless son's dead body.

It appeared he wasn't really getting any progress with that approach. It also can set you up and puts me in a position where I can be more of the good guy, the old classic good cop, bad cop that everybody knows about.

You got to think about some damage control, Carl. Do you think it just ends in a good way? He's trying to build that trust back up.

He's trying to gain that rapport because Arnold has gone in pretty hard on him and Clarey wants him to trust him. He's the one that's been building rapport, the tactical empathy. And he's saying, It's your opportunity for damage control, i. E, you can control the narrative. That's exactly the right thing to say to someone like Carlson, who's all about power and control.

One thing that stayed in my mind, I remembered, was one of our many interviews with his estranged wife, Cindy. Her exact words were, He's a sympathy junkie. And as we got into the latter part of the interview, I gave a lot of sympathy.

You remember urgent? You did. It's all right.

Come on.

You're that close, man. You're close. Let it out. Let it out. Let it out. I'll walk with you, man. I'll walk with you.

I can't make of that?

I mean, for me, this is a very interesting moment because you've got Carson seemingly crying and upset, and then you've got Clarey who leans into him, and he's rubbing him and stroking him and reassuring him, trying to get tactical empathy to let him know I'm here and I'm on your side. They know that he loves a bit of poor me syndrome. So this is exactly the right strategy here.

Yeah, it's like he's trying to bring him over the finish line. Come on, get me there.

Was it just a split second thing? I couldn't hurt him, but I couldn't hurt him. You're this close, man. You're the closest you're going to be.

It's useful to have that close contact, hands-on, and not in a confrontational way or an intimidating way, but a supportive way. You want to be the person that understands them and is willing to listen.

I walk with you if What are you going to do? I'll stand up for you. What are you going to do for me?

Okay. Did you feel that geish?

What are you going to do for me?

Yes.

Yeah, so the emotion-Shad of straighter.

What are you going to do for me?

Yeah. Can you see how quickly the emotion's gone. So that tells me, and it probably tells Clary, it's not a genuine emotion. He's straight into, Oh, so what are you going to do for me? And there's a very direct look that he gives. So this is the real Carlson here.

I'm going to stand up and say this wasn't premeditated cold-blooded murder, that it was just something that happened. It happens sometimes, Carl. That's what I'll do for you.

Did you notice the pregnant pause where Carlson He was really weighing up? Yeah, I did. Do I say something or do I withhold? He's thinking, I want this guy on my side. And that's everything that Cleary's working towards. You can trust me. And He's weighing up whether he can or not.

When he actually started to break down, that made me think he's actually going to tell me something more.

With that pregnant pause, it's palpable. You can see the click, click, click, click, click.

I opened the truck door. Okay. When I did it.

If you get someone changing their story, once, it's a huge red flag, but twice, that's an even bigger red flag. So at that point, the interrogators know that they've got him.

Now, you see Carlos Martin? We've gone from... He was dead, and he walked in there to now that the phantom new opened the door. So take the final step. There is no more. I swear on anything, I will do anything. I will jump off on the bridge. I stepped in the truck and felt like a hell. And I was He just felt scared. I don't know why.

At that point, when we were nine and a half hours in, it just seemed the right time to say, Okay, enough is enough. We're going to call it.

Everything about ending the interrogation, it's very much about what's going on in that room. In this situation, they got three versions of events which shows that he was lying.

We'll come with me. You're under arrest. I think she knew that was coming. Do you have any weapons on your car? Knives, anything like that? I got us some money.

Those types of interrogations are emotionally exhausting. I can tell you that I didn't want to do anything but sleep for three days after that interrogation was over.

You want me to leave my phone there, sir? You want me to take it with you. I'll put it in there. I'm going to have him bring Nathaniel over to... Do you mind? I thought I would like to.

He was taken over to the correctional facility, and he was later arrained at court for murder in the second degree.

At the end, he admitted that he accidentally knocked the truck over on him, and that's what he was arrested on. I know that he's lying about that. I know he actually pushed the truck over because he told he did. What parent or father would push a truck over on their own child and let them suffer and die underneath that truck?

Even Carl's own brother, Mike, wanted to see Carl behind bars.

I wanted that thing to go to trial because there was no way he was going to walk off that thing.

So the day before the trial, Carlson decides to plea guilty. It was more like, You're not going to get me. I'll get me, not you.

Carl pleads guilty to second-degree murder. As part of his plea deal, he has to state in court what really happened to Levi.

He admits that he pushed the truck onto his son.

It was devastating for me to have my dad admit that.

Carl Carlson is sentenced to 15 years to life for the killing of his son, Levi Carlson.

I didn't like the sentence at all. Was my nephew only worth 15 years?

Some of the Carlson family say there's more work to be done, not here, but in California.

Once he was charged in New York, it gave me a glimmer of hope that maybe we could finally get some traction in Calaveras County.

In 2014, the Calaveras County DA files murder charges against Carl for the killing of his wife, Christina.

These are my two daughters. Look at those silly girl. I went to go visit him when I was like, I know that you killed my mother. And he'd smile like a Cheshar cat, and he said, It's been 22 years. They haven't caught me yet, and they're not going to.

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A wheelbarrel, as heavy iron as this wheelbarrel is, would have knocked That window out in a heartbeat. It wouldn't have taken a minute.

I was very eager to see California's trial play out. I think we, as a family, needed to see it play out. The evidence was there, the suspicions were there, and it got to the trial, thankfully.

The defendant, through cold and calculated measures, extinguished the light that was Christina, and he did it on purpose.

Despite To provide the defense's objections, the court allows the prosecution to bring in Carl's conviction from New York.

No, she don't. That's why you're here.

So I testified in Calvary County Supreme Court. My testimony was focused on Mr. Carlson his interview here and his conviction here.

It's really important for the jury to see the interview and the interrogation and to hear the suspect or the defendant in their own words. And in this case, so that they can understand he lies effortlessly. Now, of course, there are inherent risks. They might start to feel sympathy for him, but they're the risks that you have to weigh up.

Repeatedly through the eight-hour video that watched that Under Sheriff Claire presented you when the defendant makes protestations.

I wouldn't do that. I would never do that. I couldn't do that.

But he did.

He did, and he admitted that he did.

It is true. Carl has a conviction in New York for the murder of his son. I I can't argue against Dan, and I wouldn't try. Your job is to determine if the people have proven beyond a reasonable doubt that Carl killed his wife and that he did it for money.

After a three-week trial, the jury reaches a verdict.

We, the jury, find the defendant, Carl Holger Carlson, guilty of murder in the first degree.

The Monday that the jurors came to a verdict was actually Levi's birthday. He would have been 35 the day that the guilty verdict came in for my mother's death. It was surreal.

In this case, the defendant would be sentenced to state prison for a term of life without the possibility of parole.

The thing that stands out to me most on this case is that I think we prevented further acts from being committed. Through investigation, we knew that there was large insurance policies on the grandchildren. That after Mr. Carlson was convicted in New York, that Christmas, I got a visit from Cassie Han and the two grandchildren, and they came down and she said she wanted her children to meet the officers who saved their lives. And that meant a lot to us.

When you have that instinct or when you feel like something is not right, pay attention to it. I lived in denial. I lived in denial because I didn't want my a white picket fence life to not be real. And it wasn't real.

Interrogations like this one, which involved making a connection with a person who has done something horrible, it does take its toll. You have to really disassociate your professional life from your home life. I'm married. I have four children. I focus on the good things in my life and try not to let being exposed to that toxicity affect me. I won't lie and say it doesn't. It does. You pay a price for that.

Back in 2020, Carl Carlson appealed his conviction in California and the requirement that he pay restitution to his daughters in the death of their mother. In 2024, he lost that appeal. The Interrogation Tapes was produced by ABC News Studios in partnership with series is streaming on Hulu. Next time, mystery on the Hudson. Was it an accidental drowning or something more sinister? Thanks for listening.