If someone did the unthinkable, killed your brother, killed your son, would you have the moral courage to find the humanity in their killer? Stay tuned.

Hey, I'm Rachel Martin. You probably know how interview podcasts with famous people usually go, right? There's a host, a guest, and a light Q&A. On NPR's new podcast, Wild Card, we have ripped up the typical script. It's part existential deep dive and part game show. I ask actors, artists, and comedians to play a game using a special deck of cards to ask some of life's biggest questions. Listen to NPR's Wild Card on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcast.

A new season of Bridgerton is here, and with it, a new season of Bridgerton, the official podcast. I'm your host, Gabrielle Collins, and this season, we are bringing fans even deeper into the ton. Colin Bridgerton has returned from his travels abroad. Is Betrothal written in the stars for the eligible bachelor? Meanwhile, the ton is reverberating with speculation of who holds Lady Whistledown's pen. We're discussing it all. I sit down with Nicola Cochland, Luke Newton, Shonda Rimes, and more to offer an exclusive peak behind the scenes of each episode of the new season. Watch season three of the Shonda Lans series on Netflix. Then, fall in love all over again by listening to Bridgerton, the official podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Subscribe to catch a new episode every Thursday.

We all know what that music means. Is somebody getting coronated? No. It's time for the Olympics in Paris. The opening ceremony for the 2024 Paris Games is coming on July 26. Who are these athletes? When are the games they're playing? You may be looking for the sports experts to answer those questions, but we're not that. Well, what are we? We're two guys. I'm Matt Rogers. And I'm Bowen Yang. And we're doing an Olympics podcast?

Yeah.

We're hosting the Two Guys, Five Rings podcast. You get the Two Guys, us to start every podcast, then the Five Rings come after. Watch every moment of the 2024 Paris Olympics beginning July 26th on NBC and Peacock. And for the first time, you can stream the 2024 Paris Games on the iHeartRadio app. And listen to Two Guys, Five Rings on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. In 2012, American journalist James Foley was kidnapped while covering the Civil War in Syria. For two years, ISIS held James captive and tortured him and demanded a hundred million ransom for his release. And then the unthinkable. In August of 2014, the world watched in horror when ISIS uploaded a video to YouTube of a group of British jihadis beheading James. And what happened next would surprise most of us. Foley's mother, Diane, found the moral courage to meet one of her son's murderers, Alexander Coty. She has gone on to write a book, American Mother, about her experience, and also start the Foley Foundation to help advance the need for others to be able to find the moral courage to do difficult things. If Diane can find the moral courage to see the humanity in her son's killer, then it should be easy for the rest of us to find the moral courage to see the same humanity in people with whom we so vehemently disagree.

This is a bit of optimism. How long ago did ISIS take Jim?

Thanksgiving Day of 2012.

2012.

So, yeah, this fall will be 12 years. This summer is 10 years since he was killed.

The big question is, look, no parent should ever have to outlive their children, ever.

I agree.

And even less so in such a horrific manner, and such a publicly horrific manner as well. Does talking about it help? It's the One thing as I was getting ready to talk to you, the burning question I had is, do you still want to talk about it?

Sure. Because Jim has challenged me to be a better person. He's challenged me to be more courageous and to dare to take on things that I thought was right in a way that I've never been challenged before, to be honest. I'm very proud of Jim's legacy and grateful. I enjoy when he can inspire others to do good and make a difference in the world.

In which case, this is the giving back, isn't it? He lived a life of giving as a journalist, and now his legacy continues. I knew Jim's story. I remember playing out on television. I understand all the science, and I've read the studies and heard the stories about forgiveness. When people meet the killers of their family, where holding this animosity hurts you more than it hurts them. But still, I want to understand, where did you find the courage to decide to meet one of his killers? I'm not sure I have that courage.

Well, I've been blessed from the time I was young with a faith in a higher power, Simon. From the time I really was a teenager, my parents challenged me to choose what faith to follow when I was a teenager because my dad was Unitarian, my mom was Roman Catholic, and they said, We'll let Diane decide. So it made me quite interested. What is the idea of God God? And what is a relationship with such a higher power? So I've been blessed by that. But then when this happened to Jim, his courage and goodness challenged me even further to have more courage to act on my inner convictions, if you will. I really think it's God had been preparing me for this moment in a way, and Jim in his own way, and he handed me the torch, and I've done my best to continue Jim's legacy.

But at what point did you find that courage? Because obviously, denial, sadness are the first things, the anger. How long did it take for you to take that deep breath and say, I think I need to meet this guy.

Well, first of all, that was not the first thing that happened. I met Alexander seven years after Jim was killed. So time helps. In the beginning, I was shocked and angry. I felt very betrayed by my government. That is what propelled me and many of Jim's friends and supporters to insist that our government could do better and to do our part by starting the Foley Foundation to prioritize the return of innocent US nationals, Americans who are targeted simply because they're American. Also to work... Well, we had three goals, primarily was to prioritize the return of a fellow Americans taken hostage or wrongfully detained abroad, to improve safety for journalists and international travelers, and also to inspire a moral courage in all of us, ourselves included, to try to use what gifts we have to do the right thing, if you will. It's been that three-pronged approach that has fueled our work over the years. When Alexander Cody pleaded guilty to all charges without a fight, he just pleaded guilty to all eight charges and offered to speak to victims, I just I felt very strongly that Jim would have wanted to talk to him, hear his story, hear him out.

As a mom, I wanted to share who Jim was, to be honest, with him so that he might understand, too.

The first time you met with Alexander, can you share how it came about and where you had the first meeting? I'm very curious how you felt walking into the prison that day.

Sure. I was convinced that Jim felt very strongly that Jim would have wanted me to go. But then when it actually was time to do it, I had my own doubts, and I thought, Boy, I don't know. I really had to pray a lot about it for the grace to be able to, first of all, see him as a flawed human being like I am, to see him as a person, not as a terrorist who kidnapped and tortured my son, but as a person. My family wanted no part of it. They really thought it was ridiculous. They had no interest. It was over three days we met, two days in the fall of 2021, quite soon after his guilty plea, and then later in spring of 2022, after the trial of his colleague, El Shafy El Shaith. The first time I met with him, I was nervous. He was, too, It was very awkward. We had an audience of people around us in both defense teams and FBI and other people present. But you know the interesting thing, Simon, is once we sat down and started to talk. It's like they all mouthed it away.

I found him a good listener, and I tried my best to be a good listener of his story. There was a grace in the meetings. He expressed a lot of remorse. Particularly, one of the best meetings was the middle meeting. It was the second one. It was after we got some of the awkwardness out of the way. He tried to make his case of why he had done what he'd done. I tried to tell him a bit about who Jim was and such. It was in that second meeting, which was the following day, those two meetings were back to back. That was the most authentic, if you will. He showed me pictures of his family and started to cry. Three little girls who at that time were in the refugee camp in Syria. There was a real connection, a healing connection him. Like I said, he expressed a lot of remorse for what we'd gone through, and subsequently sent me several letters, which I never received until many months later. But nevertheless, it was a good thing. I was glad I went. It was important.

What did he say? How did he justify his case?

His case was mostly based on our country's mistakes, the times in our country when innocents had been killed in bombings or drone strikes. He talked about a specific time when one of his friends, the little ones, was killed in the midst of such a strike. He was very resentful, even about the a movie, Jim, the James Foley Story. Why should this white American have a movie done about him? No one's going to do a movie about his friend's loss of their child, thing. He was angry about a lot of the arrogance of the United States, the times we've made mistakes. Look at Abel Grea. We certainly have. Guantanamo. All of that was focused. She was not seen as a person. None of them, their captives, were. They were the epitome of anything the United States has ever done wrong, Western partners ever done wrong. That's what's his justification.

And yet remorse. Those two seem compatible to be able to justify one's actions and yet also feel bad for them. Usually when we rationalize it's because we're trying to distance ourselves from guilt.

Right. He justified what he did. It was a war. This was a war. Even though and the other captives were total non-combatants, which I pointed out to him, they never carried a gun or anything. They also were there to tell those stories, like his friend and their loss, the losses for the Syrian people and the aid workers. But he just felt it was war, and this was Jihad against the Western oppression, Western arrogance, Western bad deeds, and all those things. Everything we've ever done wrong was part of the reason for this intense hatred. All that hatred was embodied in these innocent folks they held captives.

You said that you were ultimately grateful and glad you did it. Have any of your family seen the impact that it's had on you and then thought maybe they should reconsider and go and meet him, too?

I don't think so. Everybody grieved differently, Simon. His remorse was more to do with me as a mother. Now, he wasn't sorry that he'd done those things. He felt those were justified in war, in Jihad. But he felt sorry for my suffering. I think he's fairly close to his mom. His dad had left when he was a kid, so he was raised by a single mother. I think he had some respect for my role and my own suffering. That was the area he expressed remorse. My family, everybody is grieved in different ways. Jim was the older brother. His presence is sorely felt by everyone in the family, but their grief is different. For me, I guess I need to walk through the grief somehow. And part of talking to Alexander was in hopes of gleaning some insight into what Jim's last two years of life were. And It was a hope that maybe Alexander could come to some remorse for his deeds and his own healing. But it was healing for me to see him as a person. I think we need to do more of that, as you said before, Simon, that we need to somehow have the courage and patience to listen to people who may hate us or who may disagree strongly That's why the Fulie Foundation seeks to be totally non-partisan.

We want to work with everyone. We want to do our best to hear everyone out because that's the only way forward, I think. To me, it's very clear that, hey, The mind is never the answer. I mean, if we hate one another, in the end, people suffer. The greatest challenge is to love one another, right? The greatest challenge is to hear one another and empathize with one another. Just Because this last year, we always give three awards in areas of moral courage, one for hostage advocacy, who dares to really help bring people home. One for journalists who dare to report the news in spite of issues and other for humanitarians because Jim really cared about people. That's the way Jim was, I think. He really wanted to peep us to understand someone else's suffering, someone else's story that we might care and better understand.

We'll be right back.

Hey, I'm Rachel Martin. You probably know how interview podcasts with famous people usually go, right? There's a host, a guest, and a light Q&A. On NPR's new podcast, Wild Card, we have ripped up the typical script. It's part existential deep dive and part game show. I ask actors, artists, and comedians to play a game using a special deck of cards to ask some of life's biggest questions. Listen to NPR's Wild Card on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcast.

A new season of Bridgerton is here. And with it, a new season of Bridgerton, the official podcast. I'm your host, Gabrielle Collins, and this season, we are bringing fans even deeper into the ton. Colin Bridgerton has returned from his travels abroad. Is Betrothal written in the stars for the eligible bachelor? Meanwhile, the ton is reverberating with speculation of who holds Lady Whistledown's pen. We're discussing it all. I sit down with Nicola Cochland, Luke Newton, Shonda Rimes, and more to offer an exclusive peak behind the scenes of each episode of the new season. Watch season three of the Shondaland series on Netflix. Then, fall in love all over again by listening to Bridgerton, the official podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Subscribe to catch a new episode every Thursday.

From LinkedIn News, I'm Jessy Hempel, host of the Hello Monday podcast. In my 20s, I knew what career success looked like. In midlife, it's not that simple. I've been a journalist for two decades, writing cover stories for Business Week, Fortune, and Wired. And now, every Monday, I bring you conversations with people who are thinking deeply about work and where it fits into our lives, like Microsoft CEO Satya Nadella on growth mindsets.

The learn it all does better than the know it all.

Or MacArthur genius winner Angela Duckworth on talent versus grit.

Your long-term effort and your long-term commitment are surprisingly important.

Each episode delivers pragmatic advice for right now. Listen to Hello Monday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

The missions of the Foley Foundation, the first two are very specific to people who are traveling abroad and who find themselves in trouble. But it's that third one, which is to help people find moral courage that I find the most universal. It is. If you look at the world that we're living in today, in our country today, moral courage seems to be, dare I say, desperately lacking. We're not talking about the moral courage to meet your son's murderer. We're talking about the moral courage to listen to someone you disagree with.

Exactly. We're talking about the moral courage to allow someone else to feel heard.

What has happened to our moral courage? Why are we in such a deficit of moral courage today?

Well, that's a good question. Some of it, I think, is because we have a dearth of spirituality in a way. I think we tend to think all the answers come from ourselves. We've lost some of the wisdom of knowing that we don't know it all, that we need one another, we need the inspiration of the Almighty, our creator, if you will, to teach us, to help us to come to wisdom about what our next steps are in our life. Some of it is the secularization, and some of it is just a lack of values in terms of the value of listening to one another. I think perhaps some of the electronics have taken us away from just plain having deep conversations with one another and instead, just doing things instantly quickly on our phones or whatever. I don't know it's a complex challenge, but certainly the challenge for our future. No question, Simon.

It's a good insight. People still have the desire to believe in something, and people still have the desperate desire to feel like a part of a, I call it a belief community. Though I think the church has lost relevance in a lot of people's lives, we can see people trying desperately to find something Some movement, whether it's what's going on in the Middle East, whether it's vaxing or masking. When people are feeling disenfranchized, perhaps, it's all anti-establishment anger, all of it, whether it's on the left or the right. They're finding these communities of belief in these movements. But it's not a higher power, nor is it a moral guidance. But it does provide some of the It does act as a salve and provides some of what faith provides. It seems like we've got some of the wires crossed.

Exactly. Because we believe in something. We do. But a lot of times, some of those movements are fueled by fear, anger, alienation from one another, resolve that we're white and everyone else is wrong, thing. It's not based on a wisdom or desire for good in the world, necessarily. I feel in many ways we've lost our moral compass. We also haven't had any war in country. Our generation of Westerners have not had a war. We've grown lazy, self-satisfied, and we are a little spoiled. We're not used to sacrificing for one another and all those other things that come in hard times.

Let me push a little bit. When you say they're against things and they're against each other, no one thinks they're on the side of wrong. Everyone thinks they're on the side of right. Even the jihadis, Jim's killers, they were driven by love, and they fundamentally believe they were on the side of good. If everyone in all of this anger still believes they're on the side of good, just reconcile that for me.

Well, but then you got to look at their actions. If what they're promoting is good, and yet it results in thousands of people suffering and being killed in poverty, and how is that a greater good? I think you can see the fruits of the actions of some of these groups, the results, tell you in a way that that they're misguided, that they, yes, you're right, they may believe and that community feeling makes them feel righteous and strong about what they're doing, but it results in suffering and suffering for the world. I think there you can see that the results do not bear fruit for good in the world.

This idea of moral courage, I've also become quite fascinated with the idea of moral obligations, which is the number of times I talk to leaders or hear leaders and I see the short term financial decisions they're making, sometimes that come at the expense of human beings, their livelihoods or the communities in which they operate. And when you question their decisions, they'll say, they'll justify their decisions like, Simon, I have a fiduciary duty to my shareholder. I have a fiduciary duty to whatever it is. They talk about their fiduciary duty. But I think it's correct that leaders should start also considering their moral obligation. It seems to me that a moral obligation is higher than a fiduciary duty. Moral obligation comes first, and once you have fulfilled your moral obligation, then you can fulfill your fiduciary responsibility.

Well, that's why I was so angry when Jim was killed, because throughout Jim's captivity, for nearly two years, I was told that Jim was the highest priority. I was sent in circles. People essentially patronized and lied to me, partly because they didn't know what to do with me. We had no hostage enterprise, no way, no structure to handle when any US nationals other than a soldier is targeted abroad. They didn't know what to do with me. Instead, they just lied to me, if you will, and told me, Oh, he's our highest priority, and just sent me to another person. They literally sent me in circles. I was angry. I was angry at our government. I had voted for Obama. I'd I thought he was a great leader, but I was so angry that he considered Jim and the other Americans collateral damage, that he didn't feel any high or moral obligation to at least be honest. Even just tell me, We can't do anything about it. We can't help you. Or just tell me the truth instead of sending me in circles. I wasted a lot of time and Jim died. I felt sure that we could do better.

It was It was an anger I had that, Gosh, I was appalled the way I was treated and the way Jim and the other Americans were treated, and the fact that we didn't even try to do a coalition with Western partners. I mean, there were at times, 20 to 22 Westerners held all together. Every country did their own thing, and all the Westerners negotiated, all their people came home. The Brits and the Americans were all herrifically killed and used for propaganda. I really thought our country could do better, and many people did after that. And so thanks to many good people, we were able to at least begin to change that. That now 122 Americans have returned home since 2014. We now have some experts working on the problem far from perfect. We have a lot to do because now some people are targeting Americans. Nation States are particularly like Russia and others. It continues to be a problem, but at least now we have a dedicated group of people who are working on it. We are and other nonprofits have sprung up to help.

Why did they lie to you? What were they afraid of? What were they afraid that you would do? Why not just say, Look, please understand this is a complex situation and we can't do anything?

Well, part of problem was I never spoke to anyone in real authority. I always spoke to middle people. They didn't know what to do with me. They knew there was no one to help me. I don't know why they didn't dare to be more honest with me. There was a lack of moral courage on their part, too. There was one individual when all the American families came together in April of 2014, who did very callously, very unkindly tell us the truth. At the time, I was appalled at what he said, but in reality, he was the one person who told us the truth at the end, just before Jim was killed.

How do we ever find a moral courage to listen with somebody with whom we want to hate? Where do we find the courage or the obligation if there's no foundation of unified belief? And in your case, Alexander still justifies and feels justified in his actions, but or and, he can still see you as a mother simultaneously and recognize that his actions have caused incredible pain to a mother. And at the same time, his actions can never be justified to you, but you can at least see him as a human being with little kids who also has a mother and misses his family. Those things don't have to be in opposition. Those sometimes conflicting feelings can live simultaneously.

Absolutely.

I wish more people had your courage.

I'm just a very ordinary... I'm a mom of five kids, a nurse, a nurse practitioner. I'm not anything. It's really my faith in God and the faith the goodness of people. Jim believes that that everyone down deep has a bit of the divine, if you will. If you look hard enough and listen hard enough and care about them, You can bring it out. Jim believed that, and he's taught me a lot of that, and I've seen it. I mean, none of the work of our little group would have been possible without many, many good people who stepped up after the horror of it in Africa. So good things aren't possible without one another. We can't do anything alone, I don't think.

We'll be right back.

Hey, I'm Rachel Martin. You probably know how interview podcasts with famous people usually go, right? There's a host, a guest, and a light Q&A. On NPR's new podcast, Wild Card, we have ripped up the typical It's part existential deep dive and part game show. I ask actors, artists, and comedians to play a game using a special deck of cards to ask some of life's biggest questions. Listen to NPR's Wild Card on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcast.

A new season of Bridgerton is here. And with it, a new season of Bridgerton, the official podcast. I'm your host, Gabrielle Collins, and this season, we are bringing fans even deeper into the ton. Colin Bridgerton has returned from his travels abroad. Is Betrothal written in the stars for the eligible bachelor? Meanwhile, the ton is reverberating with speculation of who holds Lady Whistledown's pen. We're discussing it all. I sit down with Nicola Cochland, Luke Newton, Shonda Rimes, and more to offer an exclusive peak behind the scenes of each episode of the new season. Watch season three of the Shonda series on Netflix. Then, fall in love all over again by listening to Bridgerton, the official podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Subscribe to catch a new episode every Thursday.

From LinkedIn News, I'm Jessie Hempel, host of the Hello Monday podcast. In my 20s, I knew what career success looked like. In midlife, it's not that simple. I've been a journalist for two decades, writing cover stories for Business Week, Fortune, and Wired. And now, every Monday, I bring you conversations with people who are thinking deeply about work and where it fits into our lives. Like Microsoft CEO Satya Nadella on growth mindsets.

The learn it all does better than the know it all.

Or MacArthur genius winner Angela Duckworth on talent versus grit.

Your long term effort and your long term commitment are surprising surprisingly important.

Each episode delivers pragmatic advice for right now. Listen to Hello Monday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

One of the lessons I'm learning from you is when I want to judge someone and describe them as evil or describe them as bad or wrong or whatever negative words we use to describe each other, to ask myself, what good are they motivated by? Maybe they feel lost and they're trying to find love. Maybe they feel they're just trying to do the right thing for their family. They're loving parents who believe this is the right thing to do. Can I find anything that I could at least agree with or find understanding for, as you said, what good is there?

Well, and by the other side of that, Simon, is where all very human, and so we all have a negative part of us that's self-centered, that's selfish, that's greedy, all those things. There's always that inherent tension in living. We're also capable of horrible evil, horrible bad things, too. My goal, and I think our goal as people who care about the world, is to try to nurture the good. That's what good, authentic communities do. That's what good business cultures do, that they try to emphasize what's good in their employees and praise them for working together and doing the next right thing together. Whenever we do that for one another, I think good is magnified, if you will, and fruitful.

You're amazing.

Hardly. I I mean, you're amazing. I mean, I think we need to use whatever platform we have to inspire other, Simon, to do the right thing. I applaud you. I applaud what you're doing in this guard. If I can be of any use, I would love it just because I think it's important. The world is so needs this.

When you said the three things that your organization focuses on, moral courage was third on the list. I actually think moral courage is the first thing on the list.

I do, too.

I think the primary reason for the existence of your organization is to help teach us the importance and how to live with moral courage. You happen to do it through this mechanism of helping us rescue Americans who are kidnapped around the world. You happen to do it by helping journalists who get taken around the world. That is the manner in which you're demonstrating moral courage. But I think fundamentally, what your organization stands for and what it exists is how to have moral courage.

Well, I think you make an excellent point, Simon. The things we actually do are niche things that sometimes people can't relate to, whereas the moral courage is what inspires our events and a lot of the people who join into our work.

I have no personal experience alliance with anyone who's been taken hostage in a foreign country that would warrant me to support an organization like yours if you described it as such. However, if you talked about it as an organization devoted singular to advancing moral courage in the world, hook, line, and sinker, where do I sign up? How can I help? And how you bring it to life through this rather niche thing becomes secondary to me because I desperately want to support you in your effort to teach us and advance the philosophy of moral courage.

But, Simon, what gives me the authority on moral courage? Do you see what I'm saying? I mean, to me, God gives me the authority, but it's just that's the part.

You are not the authority on moral courage. You are a preacher for moral courage. You are a messenger for moral courage. Okay. And your organization is a teacher of moral courage and an example setter of moral courage. And by the way, you have moral credibility by the mere fact that you have demonstrated moral courage in the work that you do. You have the credibility. You are about as good as a messenger as anyone could be for the cause of moral courage.

Thank you for that. You've taught me today, too. Yeah, I love what you're doing. If I can be of any use, please let me know.

Thank you. The feeling is mutual. For us to work together to advance moral moral courage is a fight worth fighting for.

It is, Simon. We can always use the help of incredible people like you. So thank you for that. Thank you so, so much.

If you enjoyed this podcast and would like to hear more, please subscribe wherever you like to listen to podcasts. And if you'd like even more optimism, check out my website, simonsynic. Com, for classes, videos, and more. Until then, take care of yourself, take care of each other. A Bit of Optimism is a production of the Optimism Company. It's produced and edited by David Jha and Greg Reuterschan, and Henrietta Konrad is our executive producer.

Hey, I'm Rachel Martin. You probably know how interview podcasts with famous people usually go, right? There's a host, a guest, and a light Q&A. On NPR's new podcast, Wild Card, we have ripped up the typical script. It's part existential deep dive and part game show. I ask actors, artists, and comedians to play a game using a special deck of cards to ask some of life's biggest questions. Listen to NPR's Wild Card on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcast.

A new season of Bridgerton is here. And with it, a new season of Bridgerton, the official podcast. I'm your host, Gabby Collins. And this season, we are bringing fans even deeper into the ton. Watch season three of the Shondaland series on Netflix. Then fall in love all over again by listening to Bridgerton, the official podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Subscribe to catch a new episode every Thursday.

Hey, it's Perez Hilton from the Perez Hilton podcast. Keeping you in the know, here's a bit of our show. Taylor Swift is bigger than Michael Jackson ever was. That's nowhere near fact. Yes, it is. Perez, then you don't remember the A. I remember the A. The media was the most insane thing I've ever witnessed in my life, and nothing will ever be bigger. She is bigger than Michael Jackson ever was. No, she's not. Listen to the Perez Hilton podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.