What's more fun than a podcast with one guest? A podcast with two guests. I sat down with Brené Brown and Adam Grant, and well, as you would expect, there were fireworks. Stay tuned.

Hey, I'm Rachel Martin. You probably know how interview podcasts with famous people usually go, right? There's a host, a guest, and a light Q&A. On NPR's new podcast, Wild Card, we have ripped up the typical script. It's part existential deep dive and part game show. I ask actors, artists, and comedians to play a game using a special deck of cards to ask some of life's biggest questions. Listen to NPR's Wild Card on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcast.

A new season of Bridgerton is here. And with it, a new season of Bridgerton, the official podcast. I'm your host, Gabrielle Collins, and this season, we are bringing fans even deeper into the ton. Colin has returned from his travels abroad. Is Betrothal written in the stars for the eligible bachelor? Meanwhile, the ton is reverberating with speculation of who holds Lady Whistledown's pen. We're discussing it all. I sit down with Nicola Cochland, Luke Newton, Shonda Rimes, and more to offer an exclusive peak behind the scenes of each episode of the new season. Watch season three of the Shonda land series on Netflix. Then, fall in love Love all over again by listening to Bridgerton, the official podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Subscribe to catch a new episode every Thursday.

Hey, Are your parents looking for something fun to listen to in the car with your kids? Blippy and Mika have a brand new podcast, Blippy and Mika's Road Trip. Each week, the Blippy Mobile will take your kids to amazing places.

Click, click, put your seat belt on.

Get ready for a ride, we're going to have some fun. They'll explore and listen to the sounds of amazing places like farms, racetracks, the moon, and even-construction time. That's right, Flippy. Follow your ears, what do you hear? And they'll meet new friends along the way. Alongside Flippy and Mika, your kids will learn awesome new things about the places and things they see and hear. It's a fun, interactive listening experience for the whole family. Listen to Flippy and Mika's road trip on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

Welcome to Criminalia. I'm Maria Trimarkey.

And I'm Holly Frey.

Together, we invite you into the dark corridors of history and true crime. For each Each season, we explore a new theme, from poisoners to stalkers, art thiefs to snake oil salesmen.

We uncover the secrets of history's most interesting figures, such as Walter Minks, the man who built his own submarine hoping to escape with his blackmail way out under Lake Michigan.

It sounds made up, but it's 100% true. We'll explore the crimes as well as societal forces at play, from unfair sentencing to jaw-dissolving health risks, and tune in at the end of each episode as we indulge in cocktails and mock tales inspired by each story. Listen to Criminalia on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On a summer night in Paris, American artist Lee Krasner is drifting off to sleep when the phone rings. On the line, news that her husband, Jackson, is dead. Jackson, as in the painter Jackson Pollack. He might, to this day, be the most mythologized figure in American art. But how much of the story that we've been told about him is just that, a myth. On Death of an Artist Season 2, Krasner and Pollack, the story about how the art world changed forever, and the story of the artist who reset the market for American abstract painting, just maybe not the one you're thinking of. Listen to Death of an Artist, Krasner and Pollock on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

Every now and then, Brené Brown and Adam Grant and I like to get on a podcast and just talk, fight, bicker. We do all those things. And so this is one of those times. And like every time, I learn something about myself and I learn something about the world. And because we went on for such a long time, this is part one of our conversation. This is a bit of optimism. I always love it when the three of us get together because it's always a fun time. But here's where I want to start.

Oh, gosh.

What do you mean, Oh, gosh?

I'm gearing up. I'm gearing up.

No, this is not a difficult one, and there's no right answer. I'm genuinely interested in this because I I'm going through this right now and I want to get your input. I'm exhausted. I got a terrible night's sleep last night. Nothing bad, just it happens now and then. My brain is very slow right now. Energy super low, too late in the day to drink coffee, so I can't jack myself up. And literally, it went through my mind, I would like to reschedule this, but it takes us months to get our calendars to coordinate. So that an option. I thought, You know what? I'm going to just step right into it. I'm very curious how you manage energy in times when you have none.

Well, Simon, there is another option. You could go to bed, and then Brené and I will take over your podcast. And talk about you.

I mean, I'm game. What do they call it when you take over somebody's Instagram, that thing?

A takeover?

Oh, yeah, there you go.

That's how exhausted he is. He said the word and he didn't even recognize it. What do you call it takeover? Case in point.

So what do you do when that's your brain?

I think at this point in my life, I listen to my body. If there's just stuff I have to get done, I try to move through the day with a lot of grace for myself. Then I try to remember when I'm ready to go and geared up and someone across from me is in that place, I try to remember to have grace there, too. It's a very big struggle for me. I don't like that in myself sometimes, and so I don't like it in other people sometimes. I'm practicing a lot of grace around that, and I really try to listen to my body more than I ever have in my life. I'll get home from what I have to do, and I'll get in bed.

Do you have a history of not listening to your body?

Oh, yeah. Oh, my God, I realized, wow, I grew up believing that the only good a body does is to move your head around. It just gets your brain. It just gets your brain to where it needs to be to do your work. I think I'm trying to have a lot more grace for exhaustion in myself and other people.

Adam?

Well, I think my surprisingly recent realization, I should have known this a lot earlier, but I think I always thought, Well, I need energy to take action. I've realized that the causal arrow travels just as strongly in the other direction. The taking action creates energy. Sometimes for me, it's as simple as I'm dragging. I know I always get a bit of a charge after a workout. What's going to happen if I do 10 pushups? Is that enough to simulate the adrenaline of being on stage?

Oh, that's a good one.

All right, so let's pause, Simon. Drop and give us 10.

Yeah, I can't because I had surgery and I can't do pushups.

All right, can you do one-arm jumping jacks?

I can do jumping jacks. Yeah, I'll be right back. I'm going to just do 10 jumping jacks. Standby. I'm going to be over here doing jumping jacks.

You'll hear that. Oh, my God. He's really doing them. I'm doing jumping jacks. It's okay. All right. Watch your form.

Oh, God, now I'm exhausted. Okay, let's see how that goes. I'm realizing one of the things, there's two things I just learned in real time here that I think I'm going to adopt again. One is I raised it at the beginning, not in the middle. Because I think sometimes we drag, we get insecure, we offer shitty answers, brain's not working. We say, Sorry, I got a bad night's sleep. I like the idea of starting a meeting and saying, Hey, I'm all in. I'm going to give you everything I've got. Just please, to your point, Brené, just asking for just a little grace today, bad night's sleep. Don't have to worry about me. Let's have the meeting. I like that. And I think the idea of asking for help, which is, I'm not sure I can carry my full weight today. Can you help carry some of the weight on my back, which is what we did here. And it was spontaneous. And Adam, I think your thing of doing a little thing. I think all of these and having a little grace. This is very helpful. Thank you. I'm feeling quite a bit more energized as a result.

I didn't miss the fact that you said you had surgery, which will keep you from the planks or pushups. But I think it's very interesting. I would have never thought about this if you would not have started there. It's an interesting place to start. When I started doing a lot of consulting and advising with leadership groups during COVID, I told them that we were starting every meeting in our organization with a two-word check-in. It was a very helpful way to see people as humans first during a really hard time. I think one of the things I've grown very accustomed to, and I didn't even think about how much I took it for granted until right this second, is that even when we have really external meetings with lawyers who hate this question, I'll say, Can we start with the two-word check-in? It's not surprising for me ever if I hear someone on my team say, say, anxious and really tired, or vacation brain are my two words. We had a check-in yesterday that was one of my favorites. The co-CEO of our organization said, Deck tape and glitter. I knew exactly. We're holding it together, but barely.

I think those check-ins in the beginning are grace generators.

It's such a good strategy because what it allows for is it creates a safe space for, and especially the person who's leading the meeting, because they have to lead by example, right? Yeah. Especially if they go first. It allows everyone to say how they actually feel. You can't get away with fine, the biggest thing anybody tells. You can't get away with it. Starting with a quick around the room check-in, you get to say, off my game, a little tired, or if you're the lawyer, time and money.

The first time When I did it with lawyers, the first check-in was two words, what's happening? Yeah.

Is that technically three words? Did they charge for the contraction?

Yeah, I'm sure. Only if it was material.

But I have to believe, and I remember we were really good at this during COVID, and I think the practice has faltered. Covid was a slightly more human time. People welcomed it.

Lawyers even For sure. I think for me, this is what I tell leaders all the time, they're scared to actually know often what people are feeling because they don't know what to do with it. If Adam says anxious and overwhelmed, then I just say, I appreciate you sharing that. That's a brave thing to share. Simon, what's two words for you? I just keep going. But then after the meeting, it gives me an opportunity to say, Hey, can we jump on Zoom for a second? I just wanted to check in about your check-in. Yeah.

How are you? The leader has no responsibility to fix it in the meeting just to hold space for it, just to allow it.

Yeah. Then my favorite follow-up question, which I think resonates with a lot of folks that we work with is when I talk to Adam, what I would ask is, what does support from me look like today?

Such a great question. I'm just reflecting on a meeting I was in a while back when the leader looked at somebody who looked a little bit down and said, You look really mad or upset, and it's bumming me out.

Oh, my gosh. Oh, no.

That's hard. You were in the meeting?

I was in the meeting.

And play it out.

What happened? The leader happens to be an emotional intelligence expert. No joke, no joke, but forgot that only one facet of emotional intelligence involves reading other people's facial expressions, then there's a whole set of questions about what's an appropriate and helpful way to respond to those. And just, obviously, It was an all about me reaction. What happened next was the person got defensive and he said, No, I'm not angry, but I am now. That was just my resting face. It completely derailed the I love that.

I hate that it was derailed. I appreciate the irony so much. But it also raises this question of self-awareness.

I mean, that's it.

Lately, I've started thinking about self that self-awareness is actually, I don't know how to call it, a byproduct or result or it comes second, that it's hard to practice self-awareness without situational awareness. That self-awareness comes as a result of situational awareness. Because for example, it's very hard to be aware that I talk too much in meetings. The only way I'm going to learn that level of self-awareness that I keep interrupting everybody is by watching the room that I keep seeing people go... And I'm like, Shit, I'm doing all the talking. It's very hard to look internally because none of us are objective about ourselves, but it is much easier to look at people and read a room. To your point, Adam, this person, the emotional intelligence expert, may have awareness of their own emotional intelligence, but terrible at reading a room, which resulted in lack of self-awareness.

This reminds me immediately of, have you all ever gone through the Reflected Best Self exercise? Mm-mm. We should actually try this for a future podcast. It's one of my favorite exercises. It's one of the rare ones that I love as much with undergrads as I do with CEOs. It was created by Laura Morgan Roberts and Jane Dutton and their colleagues. In some ways, it was an alternative to the Gallup approach of assuming that people know what their strengths are and saying, Well, the real way to find out what you're great at is to look at yourself through the eyes of others who know you well. They created this exercise where they have you reach out to 15 to 20 people, and they ask you to pick some colleagues professionally family, some family members, some friends, and collect stories from each one of them about a time when you were at your best. Then all these wonderful stories about you come in, but you have some work to do. You have to create a portrait of the common themes and patterns across them. That's your reflected best self-portrait. It's a portrait of your strengths looking in a mirror.

What's so interesting about it is, in my experience doing it, people can't anticipate what their strengths are in other people's eyes. It turns out we have positive blind spots, not just negative ones, which is great. But also, so much of them, the work that comes after it, is not just knowing your strengths and using them more. It's, Simon, exactly your point. It's situational awareness to say, Okay, I have an awareness of now I have this capacity to do something, but I need to know when it's relevant and when it's not. How many times have you both interacted with leaders who are known for charisma, and then they dominate the conversation, or they show up unprepared and it becomes a crutch, and they have self-awareness but no situation awareness to say, Well, maybe actually this is a moment when I need to dial down my charisma and be a great listener. I love the idea of suggesting that self-awareness is useless and maybe even counterproductive without situation awareness.

Yeah, maybe even inaccurate.

Yeah. You know what I'm thinking? I'll be so curious to know what you all think about this because I've been spending a ton of time collecting data for this mental toughness thing I'm trying to understand. Because I've been studying Dunning-Kroger a lot, this whole idea that this cognitive bias that people who have deep mastery rate themselves lower on something. People who are not very good at things think they're much better. Just for the people listening, imagine that you've been taking guitar lessons for six weeks and you hear an amazing rift from Slash and you're like, Oh, man, I can totally play that, versus someone who's been playing for five years and listens to the rift and says, Wow, there's six cord changes here. This is tough. I don't know that I would do it well in the beginning. You have to have some set of knowledge Some level of knowledge to really be good at guessing how good you are at something. Is that a fair way to describe it, do you think?

I just did a podcast with David Dunning, where he corrected my description of the Dunning-Kroger effect, which- Tell me. You would hope. No, he I think what he was stressing was the famous finding is that the unskilled are unaware of how unskilled they are. But experts can be overconfident or underconfident, and it depends on how you measure their accuracy and what the domain is. I was like, Oh, there's some nuance there. That's interesting.

There's much more nuance than I think the meme- And there's a gender component. Oh, yeah, for sure.

She says with great confidence.

I do. I do. I do say with a great confidence. What I think is interesting is, guess what the number one... I'm going to come back to this idea of situal awareness, but guess what the number one predictor variable is for mental toughness when I'm interviewing coaches, scouts, fighter pilot trainers, people who are in... I don't think mental This is what we think it is, first of all. But guess what they think the predictor is?

What they look for?

Yeah. One of the first things that they look for, because actually the majority of people who need people to have some level of mental toughness don't believe they can grow it in people because of this one predictor variable.

If I had to guess, I would say some form of humility.

It's humility. What I think is interesting is when I was looking at Dunning-Kroger and some of the studies that overlay that theory on top of their findings, it's very quick to say the solution to not overestimating your ability is humility. But I think a more accurate... I'm wondering, I'm curious, if a more accurate antidote to overestimation or underestimation is a capacity for metacognition.

Define.

I I can think about my own thinking. I can be thinking about something and almost pull up and put a critical eye on how I'm thinking about something. The reason I bring this up is I'm starting to believe that self-awareness, anticipatory awareness, and situational awareness belong in a pot of metacognition. It's the ability to almost- Think the thinking. Think about the thinking. I don't know. What do you all think?

I love that.

The humility thing makes total sense to me for a mental toughness because not only can I not do this alone, is the bedfellow of I'll be there for them.

Yes.

Those things go together, right? I don't think you can have one without the other. And the people who I find the most mentally tough, the people I know who, by any definition, they are tough, they are more afraid of letting down the camarades than they are of dying. And they are not afraid to ask for help. I think it is the social animal in us that those who recognize that the human species did not survive as a lone hunter, a lone gatherer, a lone liver, a loner. We're not great white sharks. We're not built for that. I think those that have that awareness, they are good examples of human beings, which is why they have toughness.

Who's the loneliness researcher who, sadly, recently died from Chicago? John Caciopa.

Caciopa.

Caciopa. He used to say something like, the first time I heard, I saw your face, Simon. Something like, as a member of the social species, success is not the ability to go alone. Success is measured by being someone on who others can depend.

So good.

Hey, I'm Rachel Martin. You probably know how interview podcasts with famous people usually go, right? There's a host, a guest, and a light Q&A. On NPR's new podcast, Wild Card, we have ripped up the typical script. It's part existential deep dive and part game show. I ask actors, artists, and comedians to play a game using a special deck of cards to ask some of life's biggest questions. Listen to NPR's Wild Card on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcast.

A new season of Bridgerton is here. And with it, a new season of Bridgerton, the official podcast. I'm your host, Gabrielle Collins, and this season, we are bringing fans even deeper into the ton. Colin Bridgerton has returned from his travels abroad. Is Betrothal written in the stars for the eligible bachelor? Meanwhile, the ton is reverberating with speculation of who holds Lady Whistledown's pen. We're discussing it all. I sit down with Nicola Cochland, Luke Newton, Shonda Rimes, and more to offer an exclusive peak behind the scenes of each episode of the new season. Watch season three of the ShondaLand series on on Netflix. Then, fall in love all over again by listening to Bridgerton, the official podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Subscribe to catch a new episode every Thursday.

Hey, parents. Looking for something fun to listen to in the car with your kids? Blippy and Mika have a brand new podcast, Blippy and Mika's Road Trip. Each week, the Blippy Mobile will take your kids to amazing places.

Click, click, put your seatbelts on. Get ready for a ride, we're going to have some fun.

They'll explore and listen to the sounds of amazing places like Farms, racetracks, the moon, and even...

Construction time.

That's right, Flippy. Follow your ears.

What do you hear?

And they'll meet new friends along the way. Along alongside Flippy and Mika, your kids will learn awesome new things about the places and things they see and hear. It's a fun, interactive listening experience for the whole family. Listen to Flippy and Mika's road trip on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts. Or wherever you get your podcast.

On a summer night in Paris, American artist Lee Krasner is drifting off to sleep when the phone rings. On the line, news that her husband, Jackson, is dead. Jackson person, as in the painter Jackson Pollack. He might, to this day, be the most mythologized figure in American art. But how much of the story that we've been told about him is just that, a myth. On Death of an Artist, season Season 2, Krasner and Pollack, the story about how the art world changed forever, and the story of the artist who reset the market for American abstract painting, just maybe not the one you're thinking of. Listen Listen to Death of an Artist, Krasner and Pollock on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

From LinkedIn News, I'm Leah Smart, host of Every Day Better, an award-winning weekly podcast dedicated to personal development. Whether you're looking for ways to shift your mindset or seeking more fulfillment in your life, we've got you covered.

You can build internal resources. That's what the study of psychology is about, building internal resources.

Turning towards is one of the most important elements of successful relationships, no matter what relationship it is.

The thing that underpins all of this productivity stuff is finding a way to make the journey itself enjoyable. The journey is the destination.

The beauty of uncertainty is infinite possibility. When you don't know what's next, you don't know what's next, and thus, anything can be next. Join me as we dive into captivating stories and research-backed ideas that have empowered me and others to lead lives more clarity and intention. Every Day Better, making growth an everyday practice. Listen to Every Day Better on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Adam, when you did that exercise of asking people, what did you learn about yourself?

The first time I did it, I was in my first year of grad school.

I was 21.

There was a part of me that rejected the exercise because it started with the premise of going to other people and saying, Tell me how great I am. Now, of course, behind that was the goal of trying to learn and use my strengths more often and more effectively. But it just wasn't the way that I wanted to approach some of the people who mattered to me. I actually flipped it. I went to the people who I would have asked, and instead, I wrote them each a story about a time when they were at their best. When I learned about that- This was in your reflection part. Yes, exactly. No. But it was actually... I spent a full week. I did this over the holiday break, and I wrote a few people every day and told them each a story about a time when I really appreciated a way that they stood out or showed up. I was blown away by how surprised people were to hear that I appreciated them in general, but how surprised they were at the specificity of the story, that the thing that mattered to me, they didn't even remember, or they took it for granted as almost like, Yeah, I hold the door for people.

It was just trivial. I guess what reversing it taught me was we're incredibly bad at expressing appreciation for the people who matter to us.

Okay. Love that you did that. Now, the second time you did it, what did you learn about yourself?

Yeah, because what I'm getting over here is my refusal to be vulnerable barometer is going off around changing it around.

I recognize this as uncomfortable as people telling, giving speeches about you at a big birthday or at your wedding. Exactly. And that, which I don't disagree with. It's awful. But so the second time, did you follow the rules?

Yes, I'll tell you the second time, which is one of the things What I learned about my strengths in action was a lot of people have commented on my memory. It was never something I'd given any thought. I just assumed that the way that facts and sources stick in my brain, they stick in everyone's. I now know this because I heard it a lot of times.

By the way, Adam, whenever I quote a study, I talk about the Department of They because they were all the study.

Cynic 2024 did that very effectively at a recent conference. They did a study.

The numbers are about this, but you'll get the point.

Yes, you will. The point was I did. It was actually really clarifying for me, though, because it led me to say, Okay, that means that one way I'm actually contributing to people when I share knowledge is I'm giving them a source they can look I'm giving them some information they can follow the trail of. I want to be much more intentional about how I do that and how I use that to try to help other people. I think the concrete effect it had on me was I had to go and teach my first groups of MBA students, and I was really worried about building a relationship with them when I was basically their age. It's hard. Yeah, and it was a really short class. I said, Okay, well, I'm going to take that memory skill, and I'm going to memorize all their names and come into the first day of class already knowing something about them. And it completely changed the dynamic of our interaction. They were surprised, and it It was a gesture for me to say, Look, I might be really nervous in front of you all. I might not really be qualified to be here, but I put in a lot of effort to get to know you, and I want to keep building that relationship.

I never would have done that if I hadn't gotten this strength feedback.

How did it make you feel when you asked 15 people to tell you something about yourself and they came back with you, Have a great memory?

Well, I mean, after I got over the awkwardness of asking them for the feedback. I also, by the way, I managed that one by asking them also to tell me about a time when I was at my worst, which very few people were willing to do.

You were just not having it, are you? No. But I have to say that the memory piece It does not surprise me. It probably doesn't surprise Simon at all. I would not categorize it like that, nor would I categorize what you took from it and applied to your first MBA course. What I would say is under memory, because you could leverage memory for a lot of different stuff. You could go in and say, Hey, I'm going to do this MBA class, and I'm going to razzle-dazzle them with a lot of memorized facts. But I don't think it's for me, I don't know that it's memory as much as it is deep thoughtfulness. You are not going to take credit for work that's not yours.

Yes, yes, yes.

You are always going to attribute where things belong. I think if it was just memory, I think that's probably an easy handle to grab because that's how it expresses itself. But I experience you, especially as a scholar, as a deeply thoughtful person around other people's work and the application of other people's work.

Thank you.

I'm going to make you more- I'm trying really hard just to say thank you.

Yes. That's great.

That's correct. Say thank you. I'm going to double down on what Renee said. I said, to come back to you with a skill doesn't help us understand who you are. Richard Nixon had a great memory. Apparently, his recall was astonishing. I think what Brené said, which is it's not your skill of memory, it's the humility It's the rigor, and it's also the ethics. That was the thing, highly ethical.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, ethical.

That's the thing I wanted to say, which is you are unbelievably ethical in your approach to your work because you just think about the number of people that we work with That steal shit, head shit, bury shit. Some of it is blatantly unethical, some of it's a borderline unethical, and some of it they get away with unless you're in the know. You are none of those things.

Thank you. This is getting more and more uncomfortable. I know, but that's- Can it be over now?

Which is why you broke the rules in the first place. I did. The skill you have as memory, the character you have is highly ethical, highly rigorous, and highly generous, and thoughtful.

Yeah, you're just thoughtful. Because I think a lot of people who appropriate people's work, it's thoughtlessness.

Or insecure.

Yeah, but when it's not intentional, I think it's like it doesn't really matter. You know what matters because that's what you spend hours and weeks and years doing. I'm with Simon. I second you, Simon.

Well, thank you. But I'm torn between two reactions here. One is, let's not make this about me, and let's change the channel.

This is my podcast. I can make about whatever I want.

Okay. Well, Simon, you can- Today's episode is about Adam Grant.

Renee, what do you think about Adam Grant?

I'm supporting Simon because he asked for some grace, so whatever he wants to do is where I'm going.

All right. There you go. I'm willing to accept that. I will say then that if you insist on turning the spotlight on me, I do want it to be balanced, right?

I don't- And now it's time for a commercial break. No.

No, no, no.

Let me- Hi, everyone. Wondering how to get the best ROI from your company? I hate you both. Let me introduce you to- You are the worst adopted sibling I've ever had. Worst. Look, Phineas. Look, Phineas, Ferv wants to have his time with you. And as Candice, I'm just saying, you worry about the time-space continuum, and I'll just...

I'm looking forward to coming on your podcast, Adam, and you can make it about whatever you want. Fair.

But can I- No. I want to react.

No, I'm changing the channel. Moving on. Got other things to talk about. Look, I got a whole agenda here. A list of questions right here.

I was just about to energize you. Really disappointing.

Oh, I'm energized. This is actually what we're actually talking about, the discomfort you have and the things that you learned is actually how we do 360s, which is we do 360s by... What you do is you have to write three specific examples about yourself where you believe you need the most work or where you have the biggest weaknesses. So three specific. Then you have to write three specific where you believe you've grown the most or three strengths you have. Then you give it to everybody to read before the meeting. And then when we come in for your 360, you have to read out loud your three weaknesses, and then anybody in the room can add to the list. And so you do the three negatives, the three weaknesses, and anybody can add to it. And then we do the three strengths, and this is to your point, Adam, to the study, and then anybody can add to it. And usually the tears happen the second part. And the room gets to tell you how great you are, and you don't realize how much you are helping other people. And that becomes the aspiring stuff, which is, yes, you got to work on your weaknesses, sure.

We want to see growth. But at the same time, you get to realize how magic you are, and you get to build on that stuff, too. And it's a very similar exercise, and it's just as uncomfortable, but it's so rewarding.

Well, what I think is really powerful about that is when you give your self-analysis first, people are much more willing than to tell you what they really think. Konstantinos, Cutipharus, UT guy now, and I, we studied this in the last few years, and we found that when leaders criticized themselves out loud, it boosted psychological safety for their teams because they weren't just saying that they were open to feedback. They were actually proving they could handle the truth. So often when I've had people do this, the rest of the room is surprised. Oh, they already knew that. I'm not blindsiding them or attacking them. Also, they can see what you're aware of, and then they feel extra responsibility to point out the things you're not.

Yeah, I think that's good and true. With a caveat, which is, especially if it's a weakness, that's something they're struggling with. Because I had a guy, he wasn't on our team. He was like, So full disclosure, I'm an asshole. I'm like, That's not helping. He wasn't saying, Look, I struggle with it. I've been called an asshole. I didn't think I know I'm an asshole, and I'm working on it. I'm not there yet. I'm struggling with it. That I would have found gracious. But he just declared it like it is what it is and take it or leave it. And all that did was reinforce that he was an asshole and didn't want to work with There was no accountability in there.

I think that's just such a tap out.

Yeah, it's bullshit. It's missing the point of growth.

It's like the people who claim to be brutally honest as an excuse for being brutal.

Right, exactly.

You can be honest. You just don't have to be brutal. Just be honest.

We have a really different way of doing it, which I'll be curious to see what you think about what it taps into and what it misses, is we We look at, back to metacognition, we look at three or four situations that are similar where an individual handled things very well, and then in a similar situation where it was handled not well, what the consequences of handling it well were, and what the consequences of not handling it well were in terms of putting people into fear, hurting people's feelings, stopping productive work, squashing innovation. For me, it's been completely life-changing because I guess an assumption that's built into that is some choice. But one thing, what it's helped me really realize when my peers will say, Here's a situation where things got very difficult in a meeting, and you absolutely made it worse. These are the specific behaviors you engaged in. You shut everyone down in the room. People got fearful. Your intensity was overwhelming. Here's a very similar situation where things got equally difficult, and you brought the room together within 10 minutes, and here's what you did, and here's how it affected us. I guess the thing that's been different about…

I developed this way of doing it because I found it was organically how I was working with leaders is understanding where the inflection point was in those choices, if they were choices, if they were conscious or unconscious choices, and that there are moments that we all get to as leaders where we are very vulnerable in what happens next really matters. I have learned such hard things about myself. In every one of the scenarios where they said, this is what This is the situation. It was escalating. You made it worse. You hurt people. You shut down everything. Or this is what was happening, and we don't know. It was a master class in watching you infuse the room with accountability and safety. There was just one variable, and that is when I get afraid, when I get scared, I get scary. Yeah. And so when those things are... And so what I started to do as I was working with my coach, this is my disconnected body that just carries around my brain, I started learning what's happening in those seconds leading up to when I either make things worse or make things better.

Hey, I'm Rachel Martin. You probably know how interview podcasts with famous people usually go, right? There's a host, a guest, and a light Q&A. On NPR's new podcast, Wild Card, we have ripped up the typical script. It's part existential deep dive and part game show. I ask actors, artists, and comedians to play a game using a special deck of cards to ask some of life's biggest questions. Listen to NPR's Wild Card on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcast.

A new season of Bridgerton is here. And with it, a new season of Bridgerton, the official podcast. I'm your host, Gabrielle Collins, and this season, we are bringing fans even deeper into the ton Colin Bridgerton has returned from his travels abroad. Is Betrothel written in the stars for the eligible bachelor? Meanwhile, the ton is reverberating with speculation of who holds Lady Whistledown's pen. We're discussing it I sit down with Nicola Cochland, Luke Newton, Shonda Rimes, and more to offer an exclusive peak behind the scenes of each episode of the new season. Watch season three of the Shonda land series on Netflix. Then, fall in love all over again by listening to Bridgerton, the official podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Subscribe to catch a new episode every Thursday.

Hey, parents. Looking for something fun to listen to in the car with your kids? Blippy and Mika have a brand new podcast, Blippy and Mika's Road Trip. Each week, the Blippy Mobile will take your kids to amazing places.

Click, click, put your seat belt on. Get ready for a ride, we're going to have some fun.

They'll explore and listen to the sounds of amazing places like farms, racetracks, the moon, and even... Construction time. That's right, Flippy. Follow your ears. What do you hear? And they'll meet new friends along the way. Alongside Flippy and Mika, your kids will learn awesome new things about the places and things they see and hear. It's a fun, interactive listening experience for the whole family. Listen to Flippy and Mika's road trip on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

We all know what that music means. Is somebody getting coronated? No.

It's time for the Olympics in Paris.

The opening ceremony for the 2024 Paris Games is coming on July 26.

Who are these athletes?

When are the games they're playing?

You may be looking for the sports experts to answer those questions, but we're not that.

Well, what are we?

We're two guys. I'm Matt Rogers. And I'm Bowen Yang.

And we're doing an Olympics podcast?

Yeah. We're hosting the Two Guys, Five Rings podcast. You get the Two Guys, us to start every podcast, then the Five this time after.

Watch every moment of the 2024 Paris Olympics beginning July 26th on NBC and Peacock. And for the first time, you can stream the 2024 Paris Games on the iHeartRadio app. And listen to Two Guys, Five Rings on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.

From LinkedIn news, I'm Jesse Hempel, host of the Hello Monday podcast. In my 20s, I knew what career success looked like. In midlife, it's not that simple. I've been a journalist for two decades, writing cover stories for Business Week, Fortune, and Wired.

And now, every Monday, I bring you conversations with who are thinking deeply about work and where it fits into our lives, like Microsoft CEO Satya Nadella on growth mindsets. The learn it all does better than the know it all. Or MacArthur genius winner Angela Duckworth on talent versus grit. Your long-term effort and your long-term commitment are surprisingly important. Each episode delivers pragmatic advice for right now.

Listen to Hello Monday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

As you're saying it, I'm doing this self-evaluation myself as you're talking about it, and I'm thinking to myself, Because I like the comparison. I'm like, I like this when I'm good and when I'm bad, right? And what's the delta?

Which I find- In the same situation, holding concept.

In the same situation.

It gives you so much agency.

I just had an insight. I just had an insight. I just had an epiphany because I'm... It's when I ask questions. Because I can ask questions, an ooze of curiosity that makes someone feel important and special. I can also ask questions in a way that makes people feel cornered, backed against a wall, scared, and cross-examined.

I can't even make eye contact with you all. You just nailed it. Yes. You know what I came up with as my solution? This is basically if you did a qualitative analysis on holding context steady and then my different behaviors, it was curiosity versus declaration.

By the way, the parallels are striking here. My version of that is, am I arguing to win or am I arguing to learn?

There you go. For me, the difference, I think it comes in two forms. One is when I genuinely feel dumb. I like being dumb. I like not knowing. But when somebody is talking about something that is completely my insecure weakness, I'm not very good at numbers. I don't do finance. And so when somebody is telling me numbers and they're using all the financial jargon, I had a meeting with a financial advisor, let's just say it didn't go well and he didn't feel good at the end because he made me feel like a fucking idiot. And so I didn't understand what he was trying to tell me. And so I was asking questions legitimately to understand, right? Legitimately to understand, but it didn't come out well. The other one is when somebody is lying to me. And I'm asking questions to understand because the logic doesn't make sense. And so I'm going on a treasure hunting trip here. I'm not going to flat out say, I think you're lying to me. These numbers don't make sense. I just start asking all the questions that reveal that there's no logic here until somebody says, Okay, okay, I'm lying to you.

That second one doesn't happen that often, thank goodness, but it has happened.

Can I ask a question about the second one? Yeah. Okay, so first of all, it's really interesting because when we were doing a study on shame, one of the biggest things that came up as a barrier to asking for help from a financial planner a banker, a trusted friend or relative is how so many people in that industry use shame as a proxy for power and make you feel stupid about your money. I I just fuck it. That's just ridiculous. I'm with you there. Let me ask you this. I'm just curious because I think this might be for me, but I want to know. You said the second one was when you feel like you're being lied to. How would How would you name the emotion that you feel when you think that's happening? If you say to me, Renee, that deliverable was super important, and it was time sensitive, and I said, I mean, This is going to be much more blunt and nuanced way that people lie to us. And I say to you, Oh, I e-mailed you. It must have not... I guess it didn't go through.

Yeah, it's a perfectly good example.

How How do you feel?

I'm trying so hard not to throw out a menu of possible emotion. No, don't do it.

You got to struggle. In that moment, I feel... I say alone. Alone is the feeling, but it's not in the sense of I'm by myself. It's the sense that I've lost my teammate.

Is it grief? Confusion. Disappointment?

It's closer to confusion.

I I wondered if it was betrayed.

I wondered if it was betrayed, too.

Betrayed is quite good, but it happens. But it'll happen with strangers, too. It'll happen with strangers. For example, I'm in a restaurant and it's empty, and I go, Can I sit at that table, please? I'm sorry, you're two people, and that's a four-top. Your restaurant's empty. Can I sit there, please? It's by the window. I told you, you're two, and I can't see you at a four-top. How about this? If somebody comes in who's a four and you've run out of four tables, I promise I'll move without it. Is that going to work for you? It becomes a little bit difficult. I think it's because I don't understand the logic. I guess it goes back to the other thing, which is I don't understand. I don't understand the logic. It's like the other example.

Is it that you don't understand or like... You know how we were saying all these things about how we experience Adam as thoughtful and generous That's over now. I know. But the one way I would experience you, Simon, is that you move through the world with such a deep hypothesis of generosity toward people. You really do move through the world with a very generous assumption about people. I wonder if people are shitty like that for no reason.

It shakes your worldview. I think maybe it does shake my worldview. It's not a betrayal of trust or a betrayal of confidence. It's a betrayal of worldview. Like you're shattering my image of humanity, and you're doing it in a horrible way.

Yes.

Okay, I'm going to do this. I can't resist.

I think there's a there there.

I think there's a there there. I think there's a there there. There is. I agree.

Go ahead, Adam. No, I'm just thinking about two psychologists, George Kelly and Jerrard Clifton. Kelly would say that one of... I'm sorry, I can't resist. Kelly would say that one of your core personal constructs has been violated. That the generosity of people is one of the fundamental lenses through which you view the world, and that's being challenged. Or Jerr would say, your primal worldview is that people are decent and kind to each other. How dare you not operate by that?

Yeah, but the opposite is also true. When there's genuine curiosity, genuine When somebody shows up, there's a lot of empathy. So when somebody does violate that, when I'm in that curious mode and not feeling back against the wall or some way, shape, or form, the thought that goes to my mind is, holy cow, who's there leading leader that's putting crazy pressure on them that they have no agency and they can't make their decisions themselves? What's going on in their lives? But you're right. I think it really upsets me that Somebody thinks that they live in the world by themselves. It violates my worldview. As somebody said, We live in the world.

It's like- Such a bummer sometimes.

Yeah, but I'm struck by... There's an exercise I do in class where I have students analyze what are the common patterns behind situations where they got angry. Consistently, what comes out is that their values are under threat. Yeah, for sure. I think there's so much to be learned then from, Okay, well, what are the values that have been threatened?

This is so good because if you ask someone, What are your values? Going back to the conversation some moments ago about self-awareness. I'm not 100% sure we actually know what our actual values are, though we think we do. But to go to, I think this line of questioning, Adam, is genius, which is when was the last time you got angry? Then I'll show you what your values are.

Exactly.

If you enjoyed this podcast and would like to hear more, please subscribe wherever you like to listen to podcasts. And if you'd like even more Optimism, check out my website, simonsynic. Com, for classes, videos, and more. Until then, take care of yourself, take care of each other. A bit of Optimism is a production of the Optimism Company. It's produced and edited by David Jha and Greg Reutershan, and Henrietta Conrad is our executive producer.

Hey, I'm Rachel Martin. You probably know how interview podcast with famous people usually go, right? There's a host, a guest, and a light Q&A. On NPR's new podcast, Wild Card, we have ripped up the typical script. It's part existential deep dive and part game show. I ask actors, artists, comedians to play a game using a special deck of cards to ask some of life's biggest questions. Listen to NPR's Wild Card on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcast.

Hi, I'm Katie Loz. And I'm Guillermo Dias. And we're the hosts of Unpacking the Toolbox, the Scandal Rewatch podcast, where we're talking about all the best moments of the show. Mesmerizing. But also we get to hang out with all of our old Scandal friends like Belmy Young, Scott Foley, Tony Goldman, Debbie Allen, Kerry Washington. Well, suit up, gladiators. Grab your big old glass of wine and prepare yourselves for even more behind the scenes stories with Unpacking the Toolbox. Listen to Unpacking the Toolbox on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts. Or wherever you get your podcast.

A new season of Bridgerton is here. And with it, a new season of Bridgerton, the official podcast. I'm your host, Gabby Collins. And this season, we are bringing fans even deeper into the ton. Watch season three of the Shonda land series on Netflix. Then fall in love all over again by listening to Bridgerton, the official podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Subscribe to catch a new episode every Thursday.

From LinkedIn News, I'm Leah Smart, host of Every Day Better, an award-winning weekly podcast dedicated to personal development.

Whether you're looking for ways to shift your mindset or seeking more fulfillment in your life, we've got you covered.

Join me as we dive into captivating stories and research-backed ideas that have empowered me and others to lead lives with more clarity and intention. Every Day Better, making growth an everyday practice.

Listen to Every Day Better on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

From LinkedIn News, I'm Jessie Hempel, host of the Hello Monday podcast. In my 20s, I knew what career success looked like.

In midlife, it's not that simple. Work is changing.

We are changing guidebook for how to make sense of it.

Start your week with the Hello Monday podcast.

Listen to Hello Monday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.