As the Israel Hamas war continues, we are hearing words like genocide, war crimes, and crimes against humanity thrown around. But what do they actually mean? And more importantly, how are they enforced? Joining us now is an expert on this exact topic, omer Bartov, professor of Holocaust and Genocide Studies at Brown University. Professor, thanks so much for joining us. Let's start with October 7. Hamas entered Israel brutally murdering, kidnapping adults and children. How are the events of that day defined?

Hello, good evening and thank you for having me. The attack of October 7 could certainly be defined as a war crime and a crime against humanity. And if you connect it to Hamas ideology, you might call it also a genocidal act.

The word genocide. In what context is it actually appropriate to label this on either side as a genocide?

Well, genocide is actually quite notoriously difficult to identify, unlike war crimes or even crimes against humanity, because the UN definition of genocide from 1948 defines it as the intent to destroy in whole or in part a national, ethnical, racial or religious group as such. So in genocide, what is needed to identify genocide is first to see that there is an intent and then that the intent is being implemented visa vis a group. So it's not simply the killing of individuals, but killing them as members of a group. And these are very difficult to identify. And I would say that at the present, while there have been statements, certainly by Israeli political leaders and military leaders, that indicate Genocido intent, I do not think that that's what's happening on the ground and that's the goal at the moment.

So on either side, you don't feel it's appropriate to describe it as a.

Genocide on the side of Hamas because the Hamas founding statement from 1988 speaks about the destruction of the state of Israel. You might be able to draw that line, but I would be skeptical about that. I would say that it's clearly a war crime that massacre, and it's likely a crime against humanity, which means that killing large numbers of people, but not necessarily genocide.

And on the reverse, just that we have at least 4000 Palestinian children who've been killed, that also does not qualify as genocide.

Well, it would if the goal were to destroy the Palestinian people as such. That is, that you are killing people with the intent to destroy the group. And generally Israeli statements don't put it that way. What they're trying to say is that their goal is to destroy Hamas as a military and political organization. But Hamas is hiding among civilians in highly congested areas, and therefore there's a great deal of so called collateral damage. I would say that the law of proportionality for war crimes, which has to do with the relationship between your military goal and the damage you cause to civilians, has been breached. To the extent that it's quite possible that one could define these acts as war crimes because of the very high numbers of civilians who were killed. But I don't think it rises yet to the degree of genocide.

You co wrote an open letter on the misuse of Holocaust memory and invoking in the aftermath of October 7. In it, you and fellow colleagues say, appealing to the memory of the Holocaust obscures our understanding of the antisemitism Jews face today and dangerously misrepresents the causes of violence in Israel Palestine. Explain to us what you mean by that.

I think both the word Holocaust, the name Holocaust and genocide are being misused on both sides. In the case of genocide, people want to use the term genocide because it sounds like the most extreme crime, which it is. But it doesn't mean that crimes against humanity or war crimes are any better. They are just defined differently. In terms of using the word Holocaust. What it does, it identifies your enemy as someone who is filled with hatred and anti Semitism. To the extent that there are no longer any partners that you can deal with. And to a large extent, I would say that the Israeli government has wanted to do that because it does not want to negotiate at all with Palestinians. It's not interested in any two state solution or any political solution. And so it would rather identify, as it has Hamas as human animals or as Nazis to say, well, we can't talk with them. The only thing we can do with them is either kill them or put them behind a fence.

Omer Bartov, professor of Holocaust and Genocide Studies at Brown University. So appreciate your time. Thanks for coming on the show.

Thank you very much.

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