The Around the NFL podcast.

Big Bone Randy is beautiful.

From the Chris Westling podcast studio, it's Around the NFL. Yey is, because beauty comes in all shapes and sizes. Case in point, I am Dan Hanses. I am joined by Greg Rosenthal. Ladies, two options on the spectrum.

I mean, you might want a third option. I don't know. But yes, I think-You're only two options. We show the various ways men can be beautiful, and you can check that out. Our differing types on my last Instagram post on our little A photo shoot we took one day when Mark didn't show up for the photos. It's striking.

It's striking the differences in physical build. Sometimes we forget because we work so closely, and then you see a photo.

By the way-To be clear, Randy is Randy Bullock, the kicker.

Everybody knows that.

I know, but just to make sure because we do have someone in the chair also named Randy.

You're talking about Big Funk?

Big Funk. I don't want the listeners who are just joining the show and maybe weren't with us in the 2014 season.

It's such a Greg/Larry David moment. Why are you connecting the dot? That's borderline body shaming itself.

I'm not connecting any dots. We have three-Funk, I'm sorry.

That even happened.

Three people with the microphone right One of them is named Randy. I think it's okay to tell the people about the history of Randy Bullet from the Texas to the bangles.

The womb just feels a little fresh. It was Mother's Day, you go see your mom.

She's like, Have you been exercising? And then you come here. Get that one. I've got that one.

We all got That's what I'm doing.

Sometimes you get the birthday gift that's like gym clothes. It's like, Oh, yeah. All right, Mom, I got you. By the way, there's another body type not in the studio right now. Mark Sesler is not with us today, but he'll be back on Wednesday. Leave it there. Coming up on today's show, it's May 13th. Yes, Happy Mother's Day to all the moms who listen to this show, which there are dozens. Everyone, I hope you were good to your mom. Were you good to Deb Rosenthal?

Sure. I mean, She's in Massachusetts, so it would have been nice to be there.Tough, yeah.Spoke.Tough sitch.Finching some flowers.Tough.Tough. Talked. She had a big week. She had a special art show in Martha's Vineyard.That's right.If anyone It happens to be in Martha's Vineyard. That's great. If anyone happens to be in Martha's Vineyard, it's still going the next three weeks. Check out at the Vineyard Playhouse, the Debbie Rosenfall retrospective.

What? Do you ever think your Your brother, Dean, correct?

Yeah.

A very talented musician.

Yeah.

Almost a virtuoso, right?

Went to classical. He composed his classical music and went to school for it. Yeah, he's great.

More talented than you. Your mother, she actually has showcases and arguably more talented than you. In the Rosenthal Power Rankings, you might be third. That's all just throwing it out there as an option. It's me. Ready? I got your back.

Me versus Tom.

Give him something to think about. He lays his head on the pillow.

We decided who was more talented when I took him out as a 12-year-old on the tennis court, so he's fourth.

You can take your dubs where you can. Because it's May 13th, We're going to do random stuff, just talk about tight ends today. We're going to talk about tight ends, tight-end Palooza with John Ledyard, who is a really smart football guy who does the audibles and analytics podcast, among other things. And he's going to join us on that conversation. But before we do that, let's hit the news. Just overall, it hit me this morning, about 3:34 in the morning, woke up, staring straight at the ceiling and said to myself, It's not just another day.

It's today.

Maybe that's just another way of saying, Attack this Day with an enthusiasm unknown of mankind. But it was a great day. Oh, my goodness. Jim Harbaugh. Sometimes you have to pinch yourself and remind yourself that Jim Harbaugh is back in the NFL.

I love it. I love that he's Justin Herbert's coach. I love that he's the chargers' coach. It just gives them a certain stature. I've been wanting out of them. I've been wishing that they have every year when I predict them to do well and they disappear.

I know you will again this year. Yeah, now I will. Isn't it fair to say that, and maybe this is just my perspective on that he seems a little bit more off-kilter than his last NFL stay? Not deranged or anything, but maybe 8% more old Jim.

He's 60 years old, and we're starting to find this. We're in our 40s, and you see this with older friends or family members. As you get older, I think you become even more of who you are. Whatever care you had about trying to hold back the parts of yourself that maybe weren't as just boring or average. You're just like, he's Jim Harbor. He just won the national championship. He's going to lean into all things Harbor. Okay.

I feel like there might be a tipping point in that realm when you're the leader of an organization, but maybe We were not there yet. By the way, just out of curiosity, because there is, and check it out on YouTube, he's behind these like, shaded glasses and the eyes are bulging a little bit, and he's looking toward the heavens as he's saying these crazy things. I just figured, let's hear what it sounds like with a little music, music, accompagnment. Just overall, it hit me this morning, about 3:34 in the morning, woke up, staring straight at the ceiling and said to myself, It's not just another day, it's today. Maybe that's just another way of saying, Attack this Day with an enthusiasm unknown of mankind. But it was a great day.. You know what I mean?

That was what I was expecting, but I see where you're going here.

I'm just saying if you just look at it from a little bit of a different angle, it's a little disturbing that he's running an NFL team now. If I'm a Chargers fan. I'm 90% thrilled about this, 10% terrified.

I hear that. There's a little bit of terrifying. John Harbaugh, I always thought, has had that little... There's a little bit of a little scared of John Harbaugh, what's really behind that. Jim is like that to another level. The thing I'd be scared about is, yes, the history of guys after all the success that he had. At some point, they get to one stop, and then you look at it in the rear of your mirror and you're like, Oh, that was a bridge too far. That was the last contract that he got. I hope that's not the case here.

I disagree with you that John gives me any type of similar vibes, if that's what you're saying, because John is no doubt intense as well, and he could be very demonstrative when he gets fired up. But there's just something a little different about Jim.John would agree with you on that.I agree. All right, let's get to the news. Finally, yes, the schedule will be released. We can say this, not breaking news. It's coming on Wednesday, and our schedule this week will reflect that. It's going to be a little different. We'll do a Wednesday schedule release show. We don't know everything, obviously, about the schedule right now. Leaks are inevitable. That's how it works leading up to Wednesday. But the one thing we do know is what the NFL announced that the season will kick off with the defending Super Bowl champion Chiefs facing the Ravens at Arrowhead on Thursday night. The game will be on NBC. Of course, Greggy, a rematch of the AFC title game, which was played in Baltimore. The Chiefs won that game 1710 and then won their third title in five years. They are the Kings of the Castle, so it makes sense that they kick off the season last year.

A great opener where they got picked off by one point by the Lions. That is the Kedarius Tony game, as I recall it, as a Patrick Mahomes, and I think Kedarius Tony fantasy owner. But this game should be similarly exciting to watch.

Yeah, I wasn't thrilled just because I like the Ravens, and this is a tough spot, although lines pulled it off. Why not the Ravens? It's obviously one of the most exciting games on the calendar. I wanted Texans, personally. I just thought that'd be Nice. The new fresh C. J. Stroud opening night, like new quarterback versus Mahomes. But I guess I'll settle for a Raven.

Yeah, my only quibble is the... Because that's why I thought Chief's Lines was perfect last year. It was an intra-conference or whatever. These mega tilts that could decide tie-breakers at the end of the season happening in week one after nobody even plays in the preseason anymore. It's a little early for a game this Titanic, but also we're all going to be chomping at the bit to watch it. You can't really get after the NFL in that one either. That will be how the season starts. Then I believe, is it this year? They'll have a Friday night game also.

It's the Brazil game. So NBC gets back-to-back games. I think it's Peacock Friday night in Brazil, Eagles, packers, and Ravens Chiefs start you on Thursday.

How about that? How about that? In other news.

We also got to get the international games, get their own little mini show on NFL Network Wednesday morning to announce international game. That will be before the rest of the schedule. How about that?

I have an announcement, by the way, that will be coming up for the international audience. I'll say no more. But that's a tease as well. In other news, connected to the schedule. It's all connected. In other news, fire the trope alert off because the Las Vegas Raiders want you to know. Yeah, go ahead, Funk. Fire it off. Trope alert.

Trope alert.

Trope alert. Antonio pierce, with that interim tag, freshly ripped off, has a quarterback decision to make. Well, I think most of us assume it's Garner Minchu who they signed in free agency, who will be the QB. But pierce said this week, when was it? Did he say it?

I believe over the weekend.

Yeah, over the weekend, that Aiden O'Neill has, earned the right to have the first snap. Do we have the sound of Aiden is already taking a bull by the horn, and he's leading away, and Minchou is right there doing as well. Two guys have played, and you saw them play against each other last year, and they went neck to neck. But I'm really excited to see what happens. I think it's going to be a process.

We're going to stick to the process.

But as I said before, Aiden has earned the right to go out there and get the first snap.

I was actually a little surprised by that. I mean, it gave Garner Minchou a lot of playing time. It is worth remembering, and Steve Palizzolo from the PFF pod I did last week, actually, was the first person I heard say, he wants to see what Aiden O'Kunal can do. I was like, well, that's a take I haven't heard. And then you think about it, it's like, Aiden O'Kunal was pretty solid for a rookie. Put it this way, he was a lot better than Bryce Young. He was a lot better than a lot of first-round picks we've seen over there, it's in their rookie season. He was just a solid player, and he's an interesting, aggressive thrower. I think the upside is pretty small, but saying that makes me think, Okay, he's got a shot. It's not that crazy, Garner-Rinch.

Not that crazy. I see, but I find it to be unlikely. But he's playing the game the way he wants to play. By the way, I do like the idea of AFC West, Antonio Piers, and Jim Harbaugh. I feel like they're not going to like each other. I see. Like a nice little feud. You think that, too, Funk, right? He's shaking his head.

But it's weird. Eric Roberts is in the building. He's in the production base here, and he's just watching over Randy Chávez's shoulder. The back bench. It reminds me, it's like what Bill Belichick was trying to avoid when Bill Parcells tried to name him the Coach of the Jets.

That just sounds like another brilliant decision by management here. What's behind this anyway? Well, my baby is due soon.

No, I think it's good. I think it makes sense. It's funny, literally have him watch. He has sat in for me a couple of times in the past weeks for ultrasound appointments, stuff like that. I don't know what's more stressful, me being out of the building and knowing this is happening or me being within 5 feet of this. I don't want a back seat drive.

Right. How about for funk? The idea of someone not just figuratively looking over your shoulder, but literally looking over your shoulder and telling you whether you're doing things right or wrong. I'm used to it. I've known Eric for five plus years. Is he one of those buddies? Judging, commenting. I wouldn't press that one. I wouldn't hit that sound. I'm like, Okay, for sure.Unbelieve.Unbelieve. That's classic E2.That's how it goes. In other quarterback news, bully to the bears. They're not playing that game. Caleb Williams is supposed to be the guy who's going to take the franchise out of permanent mediocrity. They pick him number one overall, and they are not messing around because he is the QB1 on May 13th. Good job, guys. Here's Matt Iberflus on that decision. Has he been told that he's the starter going to training camp? You're going to have to have that conversation.

No conversation. He's the starter.

I mean, look at this Iberflus right now. I like that.

Actually, he looks good.

Totally different. The the fluce glow up is really crazy. This news item, I like he said that, and he said what he wants to see out of Caleb Williams, just don't get ahead of yourself and everything. It made me think for a second. I was like, Oh, yeah. Well, of course, he's the starter. But who are even the options? And I was like, It's Tyson Bajit and Brett Rippen. I wouldn't mind a veteran in there. I wouldn't mind Ryan Tannehill behind Caleb Williams. Maybe Ryan Tannehill doesn't want that gig. I don't know. But you're one injury away from Tyson Bajit, and you don't need a veteran there to maybe help out your guy.

Or, as Mark Sesler would say, Brett Ripian. All right, so let's see. Let's see. Let's see. Let's see. News News. This just went on before we... This just went down right before we started. We have a major payday for Antoine Winfield.

Four years, $84 million extension, $45 million guaranteed. I want to see how this is structured. You can make it sound any way, but it's probably the best contract for a safety ever.

Here's a huge, huge banner headline on nfl. Com's landing page, Winfield Jr. Becomes NFL's highest paid DB in NFL history.Okay.

That's where I want to see.Hello. Jack Pot, baby. I want to see the details. Is it an extension off the franchise tag that he had already? I don't even know. I guess not. That's amazing. I think he probably is the best safety right now to bet on. I think his season last year was so exceptional. It's hard for a safety to repeat that season year after year. The guys that can do that become Hall of Famers. He's been a little, not up and down because he's always been a very good player, but he's had two of these seasons out of four where he really popped out. They would not have made the playoffs, if not for Antoine Winfield making these plays, especially in that Panthers game where he to stop them from going up big, and they would have basically been knocked out of the playoff. So he has made an incredible amount of good plays. And yeah, considering Derwin James' health, he's probably safety one right now in the NFL.

Yeah, the last huge safety contract, I remember is Jamal Adams. I know there's been others.

Minka got a nice one.

Minka did, too. Adams, for instance, was known more as a box safety guy that can do some damage. But Winfield is a real all-around type player. This is interesting. Schefter pointed out he is the It's the first time a safety has been named the highest paid defensive in NFL history. That's a big deal. Again, the numbers and how it's cooked up, maybe it's not quite that. But also, he's one of those rare guys that was a first-team All-Pro and did not make the Pro Bowl. How does that happen? I don't know.

Probably Pro Bowl is overrated. We'll get to that later on our historic look back at the tight-end position.

Okay. Yeah, good call. In other news, the Jets, they have really improved their roster. I've talked about that. I'm trying to keep it in perspective and understand so many things.Cautious optimism.Cautious optimism. A lot of the reason for their hit the brakes on just full-out optimism is the Nathaniel Hackett of it all, which is an offensive coordinator that clearly was out of his depth last year once Aaron Rodgers went out for the season immediately. He had a terrible, of course, one-year run with the Denver Broncos. Didn't even make it the full year as a head coach. His stock is at its lowest. There was this idea like, why is he even still the OC? Let's hear some Nate Hackett, by the way. We got to hear some Nate. There was this idea like, why wouldn't you replace him? Now, Connor Hughes of SNY, who used to cover the Jets on their beat, but still remains attached to the team in some ways, said that the team did internally, Greg, made, quote, legitimate attempts this offseason to hire someone who would essentially replace Hackett, not as a new offensive coordinator, but a title above who would run the show.

My question of that is an easy one. It's like, well, then why did they do it?

My name is Nathaniel Hackett.

It's nice to see you out here. I mean, if they were that serious about it, how come they weren't able to identify someone? And now instead, you're just going to go into this year The same as last year, and it's a legitimate concern.

Well, they have to answer questions about that, too. That's my biggest takeaway from this, which is that's uncomfortable for him, for Robert Salah, for this to be out there. It's just going to be brought up. If they struggle on offense to start the season. The reporting of it's a little odd, though, too. Hughes puts it in a mailbag, gives it the headline, but it's like the fourth question in a May mailbag. If you're reporting something like this, to me, it's a real story. Report it with your chest and really make it-Damn, shot against the mailbag. No, I'm just saying, yeah, a little bit.

But he's not a regular Beat reporter anymore either. I don't know. We can't really... Who cares about Connor Hughes? The deep dive into what he does and how much writing he's doing, but maybe this just for him makes sense.

To be fair, they were going to try to hire someone above him. It sounded like he wouldn't get fired in that scenario, but they were trying to-Which would appease, hypothetically, the Rodgers. I don't take anything into the fact that he noted how often Rodgers, I guess this is in the practices, would just completely change plays based on what he was seeing and not run Hackett's call. If that was a sign that the OC is not a good OC, literally every OC Aaron Rodgers has ever had was a problem, didn't ever expect. That's just the way Aaron Rodgers does. It's mostly what has helped Aaron Rodgers be great. I'm not holding that against Nathanio Hackett, that part of it.

Yeah, Yeah. I don't know. Damn. I don't know. I don't know. Let's move on. Bill Belichick. Finally, I'm not happy with the way Bill is being meant to sing for his supper this this season. But here's one thing I can get behind because this feels like it's in his wheelhouse and doesn't put him in a situation beneath him. Bill Belichick will appear every week on the Manning cast this season. So that is the alternate Monday Night Football telecast that has both Manning brothers. I guess he'll... I don't imagine he'll be on the whole show, Greg, but he'll be on a section of the show, maybe one quarter of the show. That sounds like it's going to make that show even better because if I could say there is one negative to the Manning cast, it's very... When it goes guest-heavy, which is the nature of the show, if it's a guest I'm not really into, it ruins the flow of it because I do like, like I think many people do, you like to hear Payton and Eli chopping it and going back and forth about the strategy of the game. With Bill, they'll be able to do that, you would imagine, at a very high level.

I believe the report indicated it would be first quarter. So he's going to have all this preparation. He's going to be comment on what's happening by how these teams are looking. I mean, he's also can get to bed a little earlier that way, maybe if he wants.

More ageism.

That's perfect.

I'm with you. He's given this warm cup of milk, so he's in bed by 10:00 PM.

I'm just saying these games are on late.

I feel like he's 114 years old.

You just want it to be an easier It's your lift if you're Bill Belichick. Can I pick my quarter? Okay, I'll take the first. I'm with you. The part where it's just Manny and Eli, to me, they should just have faith that that's the best part of the show. I've always thought watching this show, if they did two guests instead of four, it'd be better. Just pick two guests. We don't need it every quarter.

Payton is so- Did you watch the game on Monday? Payton is so skilled in the media. He does a great job that he's able to show run in real-time. But sometimes you could see the gears turning on Payton, that he has to maneuver certain things as the host of the show while Eli is just doing his Eli thing. Just let Payton cook, too, so he doesn't have to worry about doing that because some of us can do it easily. Some of us can be high-level entertainers and steer the show. Some of us struggle a little with it. That's just the way it is, Greg. Tug Boat takes the show where it needs to go.

We've all improved, though. They're now entering year three. I'm with you.

I like-What about my-more Eli. My Barry Horowitz patting myself on the back monolog there?

I'm thinking about myself, too, that all of us, when I've listened to that first season of shows, we all got better.

Oh, yeah. Reps help in everything in life. Real quick, Mike McCarthy, Cowboy's head coach. Zeke Elliott is back in the building, and there's this horrifying thought of Zeke Elliott, and all the pop the hood stats around Zeke are horrific. That he's a good goal lineback, perhaps still, or a competent one, but is maybe the slowest running back in the league or high up on that list. He can't possibly be their starter in 2024. Well, Mike says, Probably not.

I don't think that's fair. I mean, what do you mean? The guy carried the ball more than anybody He's been playing history of football in the first couple of years. That's not going to be his role. We're running back by committee, but I think he'll definitely play at the level that he's played. I know my time here. I anticipate that. I don't see any drop off in the way he moves. He's in good shape.

All right. Mike's going to say that in May, but he's obviously a much lesser player at this point, Zeke. I feel like this is a team, they're going to add somebody. Somebody's going to shake free or they're going to make a move. It just feels like that depth chart is not done.

Yeah, I'm doing projected starters for nfl. Com. The first one's up, AFC East. Yeah, looking at that, Cowboys, it's like Rico Doudal or Zeke or Deuce Von. They'll probably add someone late in camp. You know That's what I found, though, looking this up, looking at Zeke's numbers. He was the leading receiver, by receptions, at least, for the 2023 New England Patriots. If you want to know why that offense, that's one way that zero in.

That's horrifying. It's pretty rough. Might have to have you say that stat again with this scary Jim Harbaugh music under you. All right, quick hitters. Patriots, Zeke's former team hire Elliott Wolf as their personnel chief. We talked about that last week, then it was coming, and now it is a deal. The Chargers sign, pass rusher Bud Dupre. Zay Jones, the wide receiver, heads to the Cardinals. Oh, your boy, Greg. Washington's second-round pick, Johnny Newton, needs yet another foot surgery.

It's explaining why he fell in the draft.

Remember you tried to bury that info to win a sandwich prop? I wasn't intentional. I said, Does he have any medical red flags? And he was like, No, no, no. Now he's having another... I mean, I hope he keeps the foot. I mean, at this point, another surgery?

It's not what you want right off the bat.

Finally, sad news. A former chargers general manager, AJ Smith, passed away over the weekend. Aj Smith, Greg, was a very notable figure in chargers history. He was there during... In fact, he's the winningest GM in chargers history. He was the architect of those great early Otts chargers teams and also never got over the hump in the playoffs, obviously, but built some really damn good rosters in his time there.

He's one of those guys that I think about if we had a podcast, then he would have been a sneaky, huge figure in it because those were the best teams. Here after, you had the 14 and 2 season, where it was one of the best regular season teams I've ever seen that lost in the playoffs of the Patriots. And then they fired Marty Schottenheimer after a 14 and 2 season. Aj Smith and Marty Schottenheimer had these knock-down, drag-out stuff where, in pressers, AJ Smith was really cutting to his team, to his coaches, to the reporters. And he was that dude. And he also stared down the Manning family, made Eli Manning hold up the Chargers' jersey. While that was happening live, this is pre-Twitter, we didn't really know how that was going to go. He didn't totally know either. He had a good feeling that they're going to blink and they're going to give us what we want. He got Philip Rivers. Yeah, they were always good. The Turner ones with him never quite got over the pump. They were always a 9-7 team. But he built up some super powers and was a weirdly huge figure in the NFL for like six, seven years.

So RIP, AJ Smith.

Yeah, they lost the crushing Patriots game with all that bad blood. As a Jets fan, the Jets knocked off two big-time chargers teams where they were the underdog in both years, both times in San Diego. That was obviously just the story of those teams filled with talent, big-time regular seasons, and they could never get over the hunt.

The one time they overachieve, they get to the conference finals, and there's Philip Rivers with a torny style.

Playing on a torny shot. Danny and Thomas are moving. Also hurt. Oh, boy. Aj Smith passes away at the age of 75. That's the piece. Let's take a break and we'll come back. Which John Ledgeton. Here he is, the rookie Laporta. Flars it out in the flat. Caught, Kelsey. 45 across midfield. Hurtle's a defender.

You can get high for this one.

George Kittle took it away. Go underneath, and this is caught by the Joker. Carries a defender on his back.

As Jackson points, Downfield, Andrews got three. Ramar couldn't give it two, but he caught it anyway. What a catch by Andrews.

Put two seconds back on the clock. Here he is, the rookie Laporta. Yes, it was a big year, 2023 for the tight end. And now we're going to talk about it, both the current class and a little ATN history lesson going back in the last 13 years or so. And to help us along on that ride is a man who knows his ball. He is a host on the audibles and analytics pod. You could find him all over the place, in fact. John Ledyard. Welcome to Around the NFL.

Hey, guys. It's an honor to be with you guys. I'm excited to talk some tight ends with you all.

How did it feel when Greg Rosenthal, the man who once built Rota World, brick by brick, with his bare hands, his calloused hands, connected with you randomly and said, Do you want to talk about tight ends in May.

Well, I didn't have it on my bingo card, but I was greatly honored. Greg and I have followed each other for a while. And so it was exciting when he jumped in. I was like, Hey, would you like to jump on this pod? And I was like, You guys have probably more fun than anybody else in the end of all space on a podcast, you're definitely in the top five of the fun rankings. And so I was like, Man, an opportunity to talk ball with those guys is a dream come true. So I'm excited.

I like it. And you mentioned, yeah, rankings. It's the offseason. I like little rankings. We're going to take a little Snapshot. We might revisit this various times in the offseason. It's fun to take a snapshot of a position, talk about where they're at now. And then also, yeah, we're going to look back and try to decide who are the best tight ends since 2010. And I'm thinking, who knows ball? And I've been listening to the the audibles and analytics podcast. I'm a relatively recent convert during draft season, a little later in the playoff season. You and Ollie Connolly, I should say, do a great job. Everyone should check out John's sub stack.

All right.

I also felt bad because I gave him a lot of homework. It was like a little last minute. We're a little last minute. I try not to give... We don't want to give homework, but he seemed like of all the people, and this is meant as a compliment, that It wouldn't feel like maybe it was a huge burden last minute to all of a sudden conjure up multiple sets of rankings. I thought John would be a guy.

Be honest, John. Is that how you feel about it?

Who would be embracing? Who would be embracing?

He read it extremely well. I may or may not do this in my spare time, so I may or may not have been prepared.

But while John is perhaps an exception, I just want everyone to know out there that has a podcast, which is Most of America and Beyond. When you have someone on as a guest, try not to give them a homework assignment.Depends..

It depends. It depends on what show. If you can avoid it. If you do give them a week's notice, at least, not 24 hours.

I mean, just take it easy, okay? They're coming on your show. That should be enough. Let's get into it. John, you came up with a list. Let's start with the modern day, the current, the 2023 into now 2024 tight-end class. We each submitted to our production team our top 10. And then I believe funk and ETP did their Wizard surgery and took those three options or those three lists and made it into one Mondo list.

Right. So we do not know the results of these rankings. Let's put them up. We do not see them yet. I see them back in the control room. We need to see them.

All right. Fly them up. All right. So this is what the interesting. All right. So here we go. I'll go 10 to 1 here. Dalton Kincaid, not on my top 10, came in at number 10. Evan Ingram of the Jaguar is number 9. Dallas Godert, number 8. David Njoku, my guy. Number 7, T. J. Hawkinson, number 6, Trey McBride of Cards, number 5. This is what I'm talking about. Listen, all these young guys, new on the scene. Number 4, Sam Laporta of the Lions. Number 3, Mark Andrews of the Ravens. Number 2, George Kittle of the Niners. And of course, number 1, Travis Kelsi of the Chiefs. All right, let's start. John, do you have, when we look at our combined list here, Do you have a name that does not jive overall, that you had somebody higher or lower? Let's start that way.

I don't have any big gripes with this list, honestly. It's not too far off from mine. The only player in this 10 that I didn't have in mind was Evan Engram, and he was 11 for me just outside, so very strongly consider him. I also split mine up into tiers a little bit. So when you get past the first six guys, to me, I think there's about six or seven guys after that that I would say you could put them in any order. And I would understand your reasoning, depending on the scheme that you're looking at, the fit with a certain quarterback or coordinator, offensive system. You could prioritize different things at that position, different skillsets, traits you value. So it really does become, after I think the first six or so, I think it does become almost like a dealer's choice.

I mean, almost the whole list. I thought it was hard to decide who is atop the tight-end mountain right now. Let's start there because our top three is Kelsey, Kittle, Andrews. I Kittle first. I feel like Travis... I mean, George Kittle was the best tight end in the league last year. I think I'm always going to lean a little bit to a guy who's that dynamic as a blocker. He hasn't stayed as healthy and explosive as you would want, but he's still much longer than Travis Kelsey, and he was healthy and mostly explosive last year. So I'm guessing the two of you both had Kelsey number one. I think I had a Kelsey a few spots lower because I was thinking about this year, and I expect that decline to come. And then As I did the process and went into it where I was like, I can't doubt this guy. It's ridiculous to put him any lower than two at least.

I had Kelsey at number one, but I could see why you went down that road. Kelsey wasn't quite as good as he was the previous season, where I think he was head and shoulders the best tight end in the league. Kittle, if you look at some of the advanced numbers at PFF, I'll cite them. First of all, he was their highest graded tight end by quite a margin over Travis Kelsey, who was second. And then he had some really nice numbers. Kittle had 29 gains of 15 plus yards, which was tied for first among all tight ends. He led all tight ends in deep receiving yards. He averaged 10 yards depth per target, 7.3 yards after the catch, gained 279 yards after contact John. And of course, everyone knows Kittle is the complete tight end and is a boss as a blocker as well. So for a guy that sometimes can get overlooked in certain conversations, he had a great season playing 568 snaps.

I thought the first three guys, which you've mentioned, two of them, Kelsey and Kittle. And then for me, it was Sam Laporte was the third, and we'll talk about him in a second. Those three were in a tier together for me at the top. And the reason why it was difficult to rank them, and I did rank Travis Kelsey first, as you mentioned, Greg, was that the playoff. So honestly, that was the big part of it. I don't think in the regular season that Travis Kelsey was as transcendent as he normally is. I think he was fine. He was very good. But I don't think you like, wow, this guy is just on a historic pace, still at his age, all this stuff. And then he goes into the postseason, 32 catches on 38 targets, 355 yards, three touch downs in four playoff games. To me, just the stage that he was in, the spotlight that was on him, considering the fact that they didn't have a lot of other weaponry, that to me took it to another level when you consider the role he played in actually winning a championship this past year. Now, we're projecting ahead, and you're right, Greg, at some point, that decline is to continue to come for Kelsey, and perhaps that was his last hurrah, and it goes downhill from here.

But with Kittle, who I think is the most complete tight end in the NFL, and probably the one if we were just saying, I'm starting a neutral team, and I want to pick a guy for this season just to be on that team, and the situation is just we don't know yet. It's all question marks a quarterback playing Klaher. He'd probably be the guy you pick because he can pretty much do anything. And also, you get the splash play element. He's probably the best downfield tight-end in the league. All of that combined makes him a very enticing target to pick even to be number one. But I just kept coming back to, okay, Kelsi has hardly missed any game since his entire career, and Kittle has had more nagging stories that he's dealt with and worked through. And perhaps that all changes this year, but that gave Kelsey a slight edge to me. But very close between those two guys and even Laporte being in that mix for me. I had a hard time splitting up those guys, thinking about 2024 as the barometer by which we're saying we want these guys on our team.

That's why it's good to have three of us combining on these because now you've You guys have talked me into it, giving anyone else the top of the mountain other than Travis, Kelsey, and giving it to a guy who, in Kittle, now thinking about it, had a total of four catches in those last two games. He wasn't a huge part of that offense. Kelsey had three times the production, you're right, in the playoff. So if you're trying to pick between the two, even though he's a little more dynamic, Kittle, it's hard to go against him. The Super Bowl was on yesterday, and I let Walker watch. It's like, I won't let you watch TV. Did you say let or forced Walker? Well, no, I'm not forcing. He's dying. But on the weekends, okay, you can watch some sports. Don't watch TV, but you're going to have sports on. So he's watching the Super Bowl. And you're reminded that it's like, it's Rasha Rice or Kelsey on all the big plays, which the situation they're in now, it reminds you how important Rice was to them. And otherwise, it's like Richie James on clear-out routes, and they won a Super Bowl that way.

Not like dominating. You forget they didn't score the first 25 minutes of that Super Bowl. They got it done. I I do want to hear from you why you had Laporta that high. I still put Andrews ahead of him, but Laporta was better as a blocker than probably we would have expected as a rookie. And just his usage was incredible, like how they used him for him to step in and be that good that right away. I had him fourth, so I wasn't too far off, but you had him a whole tier ahead. I'm curious why.

For me, the biggest thing with Laporte is that I think to already be able to... I'd rather be early than late on a guy like that that's that good. I was a huge I'm a fan of him coming out of college, too. He was my number two tight-end behind Kincaid in the class. I thought he was the real deal, and it was easily a top 30 player in the class. The fact that he was able to go into that situation in Detroit, where they obviously have a bunch of targets to earn the trust of the staff enough. From camp, you could tell right away they're like, Oh, not only are we going to play this guy, his role isn't going to be siloed. He's going to play in line 47% of the time, 26% of the time will play out wide for us. We'll match him up against corners, and he will beat them off the line of scrimage and at the top the route 1v1. He'll be in the slot 26% of the time. Give him a two-way go, he can function as a slot receiver for us. So just the fact that he can do everything at the position at his age with such limited experience.

I mean, almost 900 yards and 10 touch downs last year in the regular season. I already think he's the best tight end in the league at the top of his route. When we just talk about who creates max separation at the top of the route with footwork, quickness, explosiveness out of the break, to me, that's the port. I think it was a big calling card for him in college, too. They literally took what he did at and they said, It's going to be an exact carbon copy of what we're going to ask you to do in the NFL only against way better competition. And he was able to do that as a rookie. I just think that's incredibly rare. I think he is a very special player. Also 14 of 22 on contested catch situations last time, and he forced 13 mistackles. That's tough. So really, where are the weaknesses with Laporta is where I think I had a hard time ranking him lower than this.

Laporta and Goff in play-action was absolute death death to defenses last year. I had him as four. I put Mark Andrews just ahead, and he's a guy that maybe gets overlooked just because he missed the end of the last season with an injury. He's been banged up at times, but a good data point here. Andrews generated the second highest pass rating when targeted among tight ends, 135.1 when Lamar was targeting him last year before he went down. Here's a little good Ravens nug for you, Greggy. All right. The only person that had higher passer rating target was at 141.2, Isiah Likely of the Ravens. So that works.

He's on my long list. We'll get to some of the guys that didn't make the 10 because I do think at least one name is very interesting to talk about. But Likely, when I made my long list out, he was top 15. He's pretty dynamic. I do want to get to Trey McBride being so high. I thought I was going to be the highest on him, but apparently we all were, just about. If he ended up fifth. He is one of those guys thinking about him versus Kyle Pitz, who didn't make the list, and we can get to Kyle Pitz.

He made my list, by the way.

He was 11 on mine. Oh, really? He was just off-Trag. He should have been 10. He was just off of mine. Okay, so that's how Kincaid slipped on there because I had Kincaid quite high. I think Kincaid's movement is just crazy, and he's set to have a big season. And part of his production last year, being a little lower, I think, was just him getting used to the league. And by the end of the season, you can just see he is a special, special mover. I get why you had him T1 in a great class. But McBride, if you just watch Trey McBride's tape from last season and you told me he was taken in the top 20 picks in the NFL draft, I was like, I would believe that. To me, he does everything. He is a special ball winner. He's good after the catch. He's tough. There's nothing I don't see. And he just kept backing it up week after week. And he started to show it a little bit late in his rookie year, too, that I don't have that many more questions. To me, he's I'm at that level that now I expect him to be a Pro Bowl caliber player for the next some odd years.

John.

Where did you bury him? Okay, there we go. That's how it happened.

Yes, I'm a huge... Sorry, I had McBrideforth. I had him a huge I'm a huge fan of McBride. So this was the most interesting stat, one of the most interesting stats that I found. His yards per route run last year, he was first amongst all tight ends. Over two yards per route run last year for McBride. And better than Lapora, better than Kelsey, better than Kittle, all these guys here about how great their seasons were. And with McBride, I just kept coming back to, Man, what is the weakness? Was I watched him, and remember, he had that rookie year that was so nondescript, and everything was a mess, obviously. Then he did half this season without great quarterback play here. And Kyler comes in and it gets a little bit better, I think. But I mean, to be the ball winning that you talked about is a really valuable thing at this position, I think. Tight ends are often working middle of the field, down seams, windows on them are usually closing pretty quickly with guys working top down on them. And so to be able to make catches with your back to defenders, I think, is really important.

You often have somebody crowding your space as you're making catches at this position. So love that. Force 12 miss tackles. He's not super elusive in space or anything like that, but just the fact that he's so tough. He's just very physical player. When I watched him, I said, power forward type of player. He doesn't have this elite on ground athleticism, but when you watch him, you just think power forward and everything that he does. He bulldozes people. He knocks people back. His physicality at the top of the route where Laporta sinks and cuts and accelerates and is so smooth and you can see the athleticism, McBride just knocks guys out of his path. It's subtle, though. Nobody gets called for OPI consistently in the NFL, but he's just a very physical player. You are not going to set the tone on him. Good blocker as well. He can do a lot of different stuff, too. I think that's being to be one of the more valuable things when we talk about this position, how many guys can do a lot of different stuff. Mcbride can block in line. He can block on the move, which he does frequently for them, and on the perimeter as well.

A great stock blocker. And so they trust him a lot, I think. And that's the big thing with him and Laporta, to be really young and to be trusted as much as they are, to do as many different things as they are, is just not very common in today's NFL. So that's why I have them both so high up the list.

He also had like 30 straight minutes of them during a in-season hard knocks, I believe it was, or all or nothing. I don't even remember at this point that literally no on Earth watched other than me. A solid 30-minute chunk in one episode, and I think I'm just glad that I feel like now that paid off for me.

That's good. That's important, and I'm glad it enriched you and your analysis. Can we talk a little Dave and Joku? Because... Your guy. He's my guy. I always believed in him, and it was a little bit of a slow train to get where it needed to be, but I really thought it happened last year, especially when Flacko got involved. He set career highs in targets, catches, touch downs. He led all tight ends, John, in mistackles forced, also in explosive gains. This was a guy who was an absolute terror. I could just picture it. It happened against my team, the Jets, but happened against a lot of teams this year where N'Joku all of a sudden is streaking over the middle like a rampaging Mustang. It's hard to bring down. I think he could even be better if he ever gets truly consistent quarterback play. Your thoughts on N'Joku? N'joku for me was seventh, but I am a huge fan of his game.

He was my number one tight end in the draft when he came out that year. I remember that was OJ Howard, Evan Ingram. There was a lot of guys in that class. For him, the biggest thing I thought when I watched him was that just the post-catch ability, which honestly, we've seen a little bit of over the course of his career, but this was the first year where it felt like it really all came together for him. Man, I mean, just you speak about intangibles, and I think that bothers a ton. I mean, in Joku has those, right? One of the toughest dudes in the league. Physical, selfless. His teammates love him. Remember when we thought- His freaking face burned off and he was playing the next week, John.

Yeah, dude.

His face. Put the helmet on. He's one of those dudes that he will talk the talk and walk to walk. I remember when early in his career, we were like, Maybe they'll trade him. It doesn't seem like it's working out there. They were like, No chance we're trading this guy. We know it's going to come around. He's still only 27. I think that's just an insane part of all this.

When you could truck safeties with no eyelashes. That's different. You're built different.

Let's put the list back up there, Eric. You're right. Some of these guys are sneaky young. In Joko, you just mentioned, I couldn't believe T. J. Hawkinson, who I think comes in at number 6. Let's see the list, Eric. He's still just 26 years old. It feels like T. J. Hawkinson has been in the league forever. He's coming off a torn ACL.

That's such a bummer because he had found a perfect place in that offense, and hopefully, he's able to come back as the same T. J. Yeah.

John made a good... He asked me, and this is why you know he's a pro. He's like, if we're talking about... Yeah, John. Thank you for 2024. He's like, Are we holding it against Hawkinson that he's coming off a tour on ACL? Because he might not be even ready for the start. It's not personal. Don't hold it against him. I put him right in the middle. Goddard has been slumping lately. And then looking at Engram-He missed my top 10, by the way. Yeah. He just didn't look like the same guy, and you do worry about the miles that he's put on him. But if we had done this exercise Because last year, he would have been in my top four. So I had a hard time putting him much lower. I think I had him eight or nine. I'm guessing John had him somewhere in that ballpark because Dan didn't-I had him five, actually.

Okay, you still had him five. I had Goddard one thought ahead of Andrews. This is probably my most controversial ranking, I guess.

Well, no, that's where he was for me initially, and then I just kept sliding him down thinking he just didn't quite look like the same guy a year ago. But tell me if I'm wrong.

Well, both these guys have that. The Goddard and Andrew's conversation is both like, are they who they were last year or are they who they've been in the past? That's a good call. I think is the conversation with both of them moving forward. I believe in Goddard maybe a little bit more because it goes back to how much does your team trust you? How much does your team... How many different things does your team ask of you? How important are you to your team's success? And I think you saw it a lot, right? That Eagle's offense really struggled when Godert wasn't in there. And it's not so much about like, oh, he wasn't around to literally catch the football and produce in that way. It's because of how much he gives that offense and what he's able to do as a player, just in part of being a big part of their RPO game, their game as a blocker, what they do with him on the move as a blocker, a very hard player to find a facsimile for. He's a second best blocker on this list, I think, other than Kittle and Jokey in that conversation, too.

So he's formed himself into an all-around player. I really don't love Phil. Not that the way Philly uses him is bad. I think they use him in ways that are helpful to their offense, but not as helpful to Dallas Goddard as they could, whereas Andrews is the feature piece, I think, in Baltimore. To me, with Goddard, the ADOT is just plummeting. Can we get him targets down the field? I mean, he has done this stuff in his career. We know he can be this player. I think a big reason for what... If Philly is going to go back up on offense, if they are going to climb the rankings again and truly be one of the most feared offenses in the NFL again, I think they have to expand their usage of Goddard again. It just became so narrow of a usage for him, and I think he's just capable a lot more. So I did have him five and Andrew six. That was a very close one. They're in the same tier for me. Andrews, I think, is still very good. What is great about his game, I think last year, even when he played, he was 80 % of the time in the slot.

So he's become like a big slot receiver, which he's always spent a good amount of time in there. But is he much of an inline guy at all anymore? His ADOT was just way down last year in that offense. And so does that system know how to use him as well as another question with him, I think. He had some ugly drops. It wasn't his best season as a blocker. He's never been the biggest playmaker with the ball in his hands. But I think everything about his game is still pretty good, I think. And he's only 27, too, which is crazy. So who bounces back out of those two is probably going to determine which one's in the top five next year when we do this.

You think the Eagles going back to God, it's such a great situation for him. But you said it right. Actually, Jalen Hertz might not be the best quarterback for him because Jalen hurts his best attribute is on the outside. He's just not as consistent working in the middle of the field. He's great at throwing the goal balls, and they build the offense around that, so maybe that hasn't helped him. Vice versa, the flip side of that is Evan Ingram had 143 targets last year. I was like, I can't believe that. I'm glad Evan Ingram found the role that he deserves to have because I always thought he had something to him, and the Jaguars have gotten that out of him. Before we move on to- By the way, check out the splits, too, because Ingram was very quiet in the first half, even if he was getting targeted.

He was a really good player for them and productive.

He's great after the cat. He's great at what he does, which is just those drag routes and everything. Is Kyle Pitz... Are we sure he's good? I guess I'm the only person that didn't put him in the top 10. He's someone I have actually... I have watched a a lot of him, and I just don't think he moves the same way that he did coming out of college or even his rookie year. I know the quarterbacks have been bad, and that's a big part of it. But I look at Drake London, and I think, Okay, Drake London is really underrated. If he was in a different situation, he'd be a top 10 wide receiver. I don't know, watching week after week, I don't know if I've seen that totally out of pits. There's always a lot of miscommunications with pits, which is tough to know. Is that his fault or the quarterbacks? But when it's happening I'm not sure what you think it's him. So he was my number 11 player. I was like, these other guys have been a little more consistent, and I don't totally see the special athleticism anymore that I've expected, probably because he's playing through injuries.

What do you think, John?

Yeah, I had a Joku 7, Hawkinson 8, Kincaid 9, and then Pitz 10. And you're completely right about Pitz. He wasn't a better player than Evan Engram last year. So you could put Jake Ferguson over him. You could put him further down the list.

Colcomat was close for me. Freirmouth is in that mix. Guys that didn't make it.

Schultz. There were a lot of guys that were better than him last year. I just think about his age. I think about the offense he was in, and I just wasn't a big fan of a lot of the usage for him. And I think he basically just has to be this field stretcher. Well, what else can he do for your team? I think he can do more things for your team. All that said, there's no doubt, Cal Pitz, and I don't think we talked about this enough, Cal Pitz has not played well enough in the NFL, frankly. There's no question about it. When it comes to route running, when it comes to mental mistakes, when it comes to making tough catches, look at his contest to catch rates and then watch the tape and you'll see a lot of those concerns show up. So this is very much a 2024, who am I taking? If I need somebody, I still want to bet on the upside around this range just because I think the upside is a little more limited as you get further down the list. But there's no doubt that this is a critical year for Cal Pits, obviously for payment long term, all those things.

He goes into a pivotal fourth season. But this is it for him. I mean, he's got to put it all together There are still unbelievable traits here. We've seen the flashes. He had 1,000 yards as a rookie. This guy is capable of it. It just hasn't happened consistently.

We were in London for one of the high moments of his career. He lit up the Jets that game. He went like seven for 120 or something.

Yeah, he's got an 1,000-yard season on his resume, and maybe some of those miscommunications. He's had a lot of quarterbacks, a lot of bad quarterbacks. I think this is a perfect setup for him. He might only get Kirk Cousins for one year because of their absurd roster strategy. But give me a consistent quarterback that puts it on the numbers. How many times you see Kyle pits, Jack knifeing, trying to reach behind his body on throws over his career so far? I'm really excited by his upside, and we're going to take a break and then quickly talk a little more historical in the last 15 years or so. But I want to let everyone know that I put Taysam Hill at number nine. I know that doesn't count because he's not a real tight end. But if you can give me 300 receiving yards and 400 rushing yards and 6 touch downs, and you could throw a nice spiral, you could find the back 10, half of the back 10 of me.For me, every time.That.

Is bold. I got to say, last year was the year that I did start thinking, Okay, Taysam Hill actually is underrated now.He's a good player.He actually was very helpful to their winning and was making pretty consistent plays week after week. I got you, Taysam. Top 10 is a little rich for me.I.

Got you, Statesman.Pretty unique. All right, let's take a break, and we'll be right back.

All right, we are back just for fun.

This is Greg's idea of fun. I was like, Yeah, let's go for a ride. Let's go through the mind of Greg with John, along for the ride. He said, You know what's even more We're off on the talking tight ends? Let's crank back the clock and let's talk about our favorite and the best tight end since 2010, which is somewhat arbitrary. I thought it was a little like he just wants to talk about grunk. I thought to myself, here's my logic.It's.

A big even number.

Let me just say my logic here. It's a big even number. I know that a big part of this conversation for Greg now is so he could say, gronk's better than Travis Kelsey. Here's what I did. I, even if I don't totally believe it, put Travis, Kelsey, one over Grong. And my hope, my hope is that John, who we don't know each other prior to this conversation, he's probably going to put Grong number one. But if he doesn't, if he put Travis, Kelsey, number one, that's two to one. That means Kelsey beats Grong, and the entire idea of the exercise turns and collapses in on itself on Greggy in a big spot. So without further ado, the top-It also means I'm not allowing anyone else to vote next time. The top 10 tight ends since 2000. 10. Come on, Travis. Number one, give it to me. Give me what I need because we need it to stick it to Greggy in a big spot.

It sounds like you already know the answer. I don't know. Let's see it.

Oh, yes.

Kelsey.

Oh, big time. What a win. Oh, that's why I get up in the morning. That's why I love this job. Look, big focus, throwing his arms up in the air, too.

This is preposterous. All right, here it is. This is all we have for wins and losses. What is it that Jim Harba said at the top of the show?

The Abracious Loser. It happened, and now you got to live with it.

It's not today. It's today. What was it?

Number 10, Mark Andrews. Number 9, Vernon Davis. Number 8, Zack Ertz. Number 7, Antonio Gates. Number 6, Greg Olson. Yes, that Greg Olson. It was quite a fine tight end before his feet turned on him. Jimmy Graham at number 5, Jason Witton at number 4, George Kittle at number 3, Rob Gronkowski, Gronk himself, number 2, and Kelsey, the great Travis Kelsey, comes in at number 1. Let us, Greg, before you can... Because you deserve the opportunity, because now that this segment has imploded on itself in a big spot for you, I'm going to give you the floor. I'm going to out of the way. But first, I want to hear from our guest.I want to hear John.I.

Respect both your opinions.

Why John said Travis over Rob? Go ahead, John.

Yeah, Greg's probably regretting having me on the show. I apologize, Greg. I had to do this. This actually It's hard for me, too, because I covered Cronk in Tampa Bay for a couple of years and just an absolute joy as a player, as everything, to be able to cover. And honestly, this is obviously a great conversation, a pride discourse that will happen for years. These guys are obviously in the same tier. There's no wrong ranking here, in my opinion. Greg might disagree, but the big thing for me, I think, is when you look at games played, there's an edge with Kelsey. I think even though he still has... When you look at the starts of their career, Kelsey didn't even really play his first year. I think so you go back to that a little bit.

He's like a season up, just to put the stats. He basically is 6-8 games up on Gronk now going in.

And Gronk started at age 21. Kelsey's career didn't really start until age 25, which is interesting.

Right. And I think Kelsey's still adding to that. Plus, just really always being healthy is a big part of this ranking. Now, if you ask, it's like the Kittle Kelsey debate, honestly, in a little way. If you're just saying, both these guys are at the beginning of the career. I'm starting a neutral franchise. Who do I want to build my offense around? I think There's definitely a real strong argument for Gronkowski because of how good he was as a blocker. You could play Gronk, and you could do this with Kelsey, too, to a degree. You could play him as an ex by himself. You could put him on the backside of three by ones on the single door receiver side. And he was like, In his heyday, he was like cash money, basically.

That's the reason why they beat the Chiefs in that game was exactly that reason that they could do that.

Let him finish, Greg. You're going to get your chance.

I've just never really seen anybody win the way Kelsey win. I've never seen him. He isn't even a great athlete anymore, and he's open all the time. How? How is he? He knows everything that's happening around him all the time. Obviously, he has carte blanche to do what he wants as a route runner, which is incredible to watch. But I just don't know how anybody who moves the way he does is getting open to the degree that he is at his age and staying healthy all the time. It's just watching him is remarkable to me because I feel like, okay, you should be able to knock him around. You should be able to stay in his hip pocket. He's not that explosive. You look at his contested catch numbers, and it's like, he does a good job, but he's also hardly ever in contested catch situations. So it doesn't make any sense. And then you watch him in every single game. He's open all the time, all over the field at all levels. When they needed him to be the vertical guy last year because they had absolutely nothing, he goes out and he makes plays down the field.

I'm just like, I don't even understand. The production, the counting numbers are a little bit on his side over, like when you look at yards and things like that. But he's got the game's advantage there, too, a little bit since 2010. So it's a fascinating discussion. I've bounced around throughout my lifetime, uncovering these guys and watching them play. But I think that there really is no wrong answer on it. But I just had to go with Kelsey because of a couple of those factors.

I get it. Everything that you said is right on when it's talking about why Kelsey is so great. And he's a football genius in terms of route running, and he gets to play with another one in Mahomes. And that's awesome. You think about players that never got that chance. The fact Randy Moss gets to play with Tom braided at that point in both of their careers, you got to see greatness elevate each other. And Kelsey has done that. And the argument to me is a little bit, Compiler versus peak. But I have to give it to Kelsey that his peaks now are all also pretty awesome. So it truly is an argument where two or three years ago, I really didn't think it was an argument. The reason I feel strongly it's gronk is I'm going to take the guy who, if it's close enough, is better at their respective peaks. They're both four-time, first-team All-Pro, so they've been literally the best tight in the league, both four times. But there's two parts where Grank is just clearly better, and that's explosive plays, including touch downs and blocking. Those are two massive components of playing the tight-end position.

It took me looking at this to remember, Rob Gronkowski averaged 15 yards per catch for his career. That is just outrageous. He still has Kelsey by a good margin in terms of touch downs, in terms of if you're just playing fantasy points, just fantasy points. He'd even have Kelsey per game over that, and that's because of all the touch downs. So when I think When you think about what makes a tight-end special, scoring, explosive plays, and I do think the explosive plays gets a little lost in the grand conversation. To average 15 yards per catch, the tight-end, I'm looking at all these lists, and I sorted it on pro football reference. There's no other tight end that's even remotely in the ballpark. Everyone's two yards per catch behind grand, and then you add the touch downs. And then, most importantly, I think you add the blocking where at his peak, and he kept it going pretty well to the end of his career, they could just do so many things because of the way he blocked. Not only did he do a great job blocking, but they just could call plays in such a different way that was almost impossible to defend.

And that was because of Grank. I think he does have that in a way that's better than Kelsey at his peak. But I'm not going to kill you for going Kelsey at this point. I think it's an argument. It's not a good one by the way.

Here it is. To me, you can't say anything negative Grank. Maybe his durability, and there's a reason why he left the game in 2019 because he got so beat up over the years. He came into the league with the back surgery. Obviously, it led to the Patriots, I think, being able to get him in the first place where they did, whereas Kelsey has been just an Ironman for that team. The things that's more like, what excites me a little bit more as a football fan, Kelsey's cerebral nature is so incredible. John, I'll point to two instances in the last couple of years. One is one of the many plays that Kedari's Tony ruined for the team last year, that long play against the Bills where he catches the pass and then in stride, throws a perfect ball across the field to complete an unlikely touch down that would have swung that game, and it gets called back because Tony lined up offsides. Everyone was like, Can you believe that Travis, Kelsey, would do that? Then after the game, everybody's like, No. Kelsey does that stuff all the time in practice. He just sees the field in a way that other people don't.

Then he has this incredible ability to make plays because he's just so naturally, athletically gifted. The other play I'll point to is the 13 seconds game, the divisional round playoffs, also, obviously, against the Bills. And on that amazing sequence where they were able to tie the game, it's Kelsey who calls out or sets up the play on the first Tyreek Hill game and then says to Mahomes, all this in real-time. Hey, if they stay in that same defense, look for me because I'm going to have a seam. And sure enough, he gets hit for the huge pass game. So he set up both those plays and allowed them to escape and win that game. Those are just two samples. And while I'm not going to get on gronk because everybody knows gronk is not a rocket scientist, although I know he leans into the gronkness of it all, just, Kelsey, I think, separates himself with his ability to be, like his brother did on the offensive line, physically gifted, but also mentally a superstar.

It's also absolutely crazy that just when you look at the production for both these two guys, there's so many things to just be jaw on the floor about. But Kelsey has, since 2010, almost 300 more catches than Ron Gronkowski now, and Gronkowski still has 18 more touch downs than him, which speaks to Grace point. Also speaks to the fact that Andy Reid is just this savant near the goal line. And obviously, everybody, Anthony Sherman and those types of players are getting touchdowns that Kelsey probably would get if he was featured as much as Gronk down there. But yeah, it speaks to just the production that Gronk had as a red zone guy and as a big play guy. If he just never had all the injury concerns that he had, and now he's over 2000 yards behind Kelsey as well since 2010. The numbers in the production we would have seen from this guy would have just been off the charts. It's just such a bummer that he ended up, Hey, retired and missing that year. We got plenty.

I feel like, well, maybe I'm Speaking out of turn, but I feel like it could have gone different ways. We could have seen less of gronk. I mean, the fact that you got five or six great seasons. You think about the last two times he played Travis Kelsey, not for nothing. That AFC Championship game, they win it in part by putting gronk out to the left. On the game-winning drive, he makes big plays. Kelsey has a quiet game. Then he scores a couple of touch downs in the Super Bowl with the Bucaneers at the very end. So he still did get a nice little gronk spike at the end of his career, even if Even if you guys are going to put him first. Should we just zoom through the rest of the list at least?

I would say like Jimmy-Put that list back up.

Yeah, Jimmy Graham had four. He ends up five on this list. I had him three because he just for the-I had him four. For four or five years, he just had absolute monster years. He was a first-team all pro like Doreen Granks' prime a couple of times, and it fell off fairly quickly. But we have Kittle third, no problem with that. Whitten, who to me was a little bit of a compiled, I think-That's not fair, though, because he was what you dream of in a tight-end.

A guy, a great safety valve/move the chain guy in a big third down. He did so much for them and had some huge years as well in terms of straight production.

And got a couple first-team All-Pros, too. Then I was happy to see Greg Olson on this list. I sorted by a couple of different measures, but on Pro Football Reference, they have something called the proximate value, which it's not perfect, but it's trying to be their be all end all. I just wanted an initial list. They had him fourth since 2010 behind Kelsey Gronk and Jimmy Graham, and that just shows the production. And he was a very intelligent player, too.

John, I killed Antonio Gates' ranking here because I left him off only because his last big time year was 2010. And then he hung around and had the issues, obviously health down the line. But if he still finished seventh, you must have had him high up as well.

I had him. Yeah. What did I have him? Sixth, I think was on my list. I actually I had Graham lower. I had Graham eighth, and so I contributed to him being probably five. It seems like he would have been higher for you guys. Actually, my most controversial, I had Kittle third as well. I had Greg Olson, fourth, and went in first. Wow. Gate sixth, Earth seventh, and I had Graham eighth, and Vernon Davis, ninth, and then 10th. I was like, Mark Andrews, Jared Cook. I don't know.

Jared Cook made the list.

His production is there, though, on all these lists of yards when I sorted in approximate value.

He's top seven or eight, and you're like, Dang, Jared Cooke had a nice career.

When I sent the list that I refused to just put Jared Cooke because who would ever think of him as a top 10 tight end in the last 15 years? But he just underwanted.

He had one of the best catches you'll ever see from a tight-end in a playoff game against Dallas with the packers. I just threw Darren Waller at number 10, and I know that he has not been able to keep it up and sustain it. But when he did lock into that zone, he was as impossible to cover as anyone. So I gave him a little love. I don't even know if his career is continuing at this point, but a little pop for Derrick Waller.

Yeah, it felt like there was nine solid, apparently, for all of us. I actually had Vernon Davis' 10th. I split nine and 10 with Vernon Davis' old teammate on the Super Bowl reaching 2012, '49. I gave Delaney Walker a little love, an old West favorite. I almost did that. Three Pro balls, a great blocker, great at his very peak. And so he snuck in at 10. But I'm glad you mentioned Gates. That is the last thing I want to say because he didn't make the Hall of Fame last year, and I was just like... He'll get there. I know he'll get there. You got to wait. It's like Devon Hester and Pat... I love Patrick Willis. But if you had said in the middle of their primes, who's a better player? Antonio Gates was so good, and this exercise was interesting because this was the second half of his career where he just cruised as terrific, where he did the compiling that you often need for Hall of Fames, and he was still making a lot of Pro bowls, and he's 600 to 800 yards. But the first five, he has that Jimmy Graham and Gronk tight peak, too, before that, and then he cruised along.

So to me, it was crazy. He's even waiting a year, and it's just an awesome all-time great.

All right. All those guys are pretty... I think after the top three that are, I think, going to be pretty consensus, all those guys really are in a pretty similar clump up until you get probably to the Vernon Davis range and whoever's at 9 or 10 for you. But I just thought Olson is one of the forgotten. He had three 1,000-yard seasons in a row. And if he had not had the foot injuries, when you just talk When you think about peak of your power stuff, he was just amazing. Remember, they didn't have a ton of other guys in Carolina, and they got to see that super. He was the guy. Talk about cerebral leadership, consistency across the board until those injuries started up.

Awesome hands. Just got everything.

Great rapper. I mean, really friendly when we ran into him in Vegas and he was feeling no pain at all in the casino.

He's a very nice guy. He's doing it right. He's living well. He's had a great life. I tried to It's not the case to Andrew Marshawn that Greg Olson was really the big loser of the offseason in terms of the Tom braided of it all in the broadcasting booth.

But no, Greg Olson is doing great.

Greg Olson. He's the JJ redic of the... I think he's on that trajectory, right? Great player who was forgot about about a little bit.

Great analyst now. That's a good...

Although Reddick actually got a head coaching interview and might get more. Olson...

Olson has poked his head around there, too.

He tried to. He tried to. There was some... He did a poke. … Sourced report that Greg Olson would be open if you would want to talk to him, but they never did.

All right, John, you've said it all. Follow John on Twitter @ledyardNFLDraft. Like I said, the audibles and analytics pod, and he's a busy man, so just keep an eye on him because he's doing all sorts of great coverage of Ball.Thank you, buddy, for joining.Strong.

Jaw, too. Appreciate it, John.

Hey. Incredible jawline. My jaw has been comped to Bill Cauer at times.

Very nice.John Ledier, everybody. See you, John. We'll be right back to close things up. All right, we are back. Close some things up. Nice conversation there with John Ledier. Good addition.

I love that stuff. I don't know where I saw it. I think it was a book I read. It was just like, maybe it was a tweet, all men like to do is just rank things. Rank stuff. I was like, yeah.

Let's rank.

Yeah, I get that. Who better than us to do it? We've been doing this show. We've been following Who's got it better than us?

Yes. Again, Mark Sesler not with us today, but Mark will be back on Wednesday, so tune in for that. Also, Wednesday is the schedule release show, so we will be breaking down all the interesting tidbits that are coming out of that. Before we say goodbye, we were just talking tight ends and all the fun ranking of it all that men like to do. There's some heat between one of the great tight ends of all time. He retired before he would be part of this conversation we just had. But Shannon Sharp, who was most recently seen kicking the hell out of us in a podcast award show, right? They blew them down there. That's when we knew we were done.

Well, I knew when you got me that.Sharp's here? Not only that, they had their own roped-off section that I tried to get it to.

Oh, that was rough. As soon as we got to Austin, we were like, Oh, my God, this was all on a trap. But Shannon Sharp is one of the great tight ends of the '90s into the 2000s. But he came after Shaquille O'Neill, the NBA legend. What if Shaq really tried hard? Shaq didn't take too kindly to that. Let's check out this. This I just thought was awesome because Shaq cited Gilbrandt's nfl. Com write-ups multiple times. Okay. Shaq cited Gil, ranking Shannon Sharp 11th all-time tight ends. Gilbrandt, who, rest in peace, left us a year ago, former Cowboys general manager. I just like that Shaq's post, Got to be top 10 in your profession before he speak on someone in their profession. Tough there, there, there break for Shaq in a big spot there. But Shaq's pointing to Gilbrandt putting Shannon Sharp number 11 as the Bible and the be all, end all rankings. I just got to kick that.

Not only that, it's an old-school nfl. Com photo gallery. I can't believe Sharp didn't make the top 10.

A Levenberg special.

But then I look at who's in it, for instance, and you can't really fault Gil. Wait, actually, I do fault some things. He's got Jason Whitten fourth and gronk like two spots behind it.

You know Gil is going to give Jason Whitten a little extra pop.

But either way, I love this rap beef that I never knew I knew. I know.

This This is the new Drake and Lamar. Pull up the Instagram feed one again because I love coded messaging that it's like, What's going on? Does everybody know about us? But at one point, Shaq in his long diatrop against Shannon Sharp over nonsense writes, Don't forget, I know what you did to get where you were at. Oh, hell, yeah.

What's that all about?What's.

That all about?What's that all about?

I need more on that. I do It's like that Shaq said, Google me, Four Rings, Top 75 NBA player.

He calls himself, You think I have too many nicknames? He calls him... He hashtags at the end, Apex Predator. Young Shaq was the most dominant athlete I've ever seen in my life. We took a growing up right on the border of Northern New Jersey. We couldn't get into the garden to see the Knicks because they were very popular and successful at the time. But you could always get to a Nets game down at the Metta lands. There was a class trip to go see Shaq when he was a rookie with the Magic. We took the bus down. My dad was one of the chaperones, and we just saw Shaq just thrash a Nets team that was looking at each other like, How is this grown man on the court? And we are but little boys. Maybe Shannon needs to remember that he was a specimen, Shaq, and his numbers stack up pretty well with the all-time greats.

Football is completely different than basketball.

All right, we'll be back Wednesday. Great job behind the glass tag team effort. What tag team would they be in? Demolition, I think.

The Legion of Doum. Legion of Doum.

What a rush. He the goal..