Welcome to NFL Daily. I'm Greg Rosenthal. Beyond lucky today to be joined by Jordan Rodrieg of The Athletic with me in the studio, the Chris Westling podcast studio, and somewhere in the sunny environs of Las Vegas, Nate Tice of Yahoo Sports. I'm really excited about this show. We We've been doing it a little bit here, and as you hopefully have learned, if you're a listener, we're going to have a bunch of different flavors of this show. Different shows will have different flavors. This show's flavor, Nate, is dork. That's our flavor. That's our flavor. Let's get into schemes. It's good to see you, buddy. You look very rested, and you look handsome, and I haven't seen you since the Super Bowl. Are you glowing? You're glowing a little bit.

The wife hasn't killed me yet. That's what's going on. That's I think I have a lot of takes pent up, and maybe that's where I'm glowing with. I'm bursting at the seams with takes. That was a very fun... Is that from the NFL Films archive there?

We're leaning hard into NFL Films.

Yeah, that's not the autumn wind. That was the preamble to it. Beforehand, it was the summer wind. I can't do that either. That's not true. But no, I'm happy to be here. I usually get like nerd or anything, but one time it got described as... Actually, it was my old co-host with Dane and I, Dane Brooger. He was like, Oh, our draft geeks. And I felt like I almost got inserted there. Yeah, it's too much. Yeah, geek. That's a step-along nerd and everything.

You're none of those things. You're a tall, strapping former D1 athlete, and back up to Russell Wilson. So that's more, at least, athletically, as far as I know, Jordan, than me or you have accomplished.

As far as you know. I don't know. I don't know. You don't know all about my life.

It's great to have you back in the studio to Jordan. You're here, obviously, for our first show. I wanted to get you back for this show because I just felt like you and Nate are the two perfect people to talk about what's coming next, what we're interested in in terms of NFL schemes. That's why today is the flavor of Dork. I mean that in the best way possible. I love this stuff, and it's a good time of year, I think, to talk about what trends we've seen maybe on field and what we're looking forward to. And I left it pretty open-ended. Nate, I know you have a piece coming up on Yahoo Sports about this, so you are very well-prepped. You also have a podcast coming up on Yahoo Sports in a couple of weeks. So I'm really looking forward to listening to that. But it can be league-wide, it can be a specific team, it can be coach, it can be anything. And Jordan, I want you to get us going.

Well, I'm excited to start because I'm going to steal Nate's answer from him immediately. You know what I'm going I think so. Okay. At the same time. Ready? One, two, three.

Pistol. The ramps. Oh, your ramps pistol. I was going to say ramps pistol. Okay.

I knew you were going to- I knew you were going to bring...

Someone's going to bring this up, so I have a bullet point on this. So I'm ready. I'm ready for the pistol.

Well, okay. So I'm not going to be the person who comes on here and talks about the Ram's all the time. I do want the listeners to know that we're talking about a lot of different things. But this was extremely fascinating to watch and cover last year. The RAMs started deploying significant amounts of pistol formation, especially in the latter half of the season. They ended up with about 100 snaps by all said and done. They didn't just start it after the buy. You saw a little test of concept earlier in the season, but they really spammed it later in the season. It basically allowed Matthew Stafford to do what he likes, which is be a shotgun quarterback and a dropback quarterback, while also having the entire run menu at his disposal because was the Under Center run menu was you can keep that in the play sheet and in the call sheet if you're in the pistol, even though you're in what looks a little bit like the gun with the running back immediately behind the quarterback. What was really good about this was it helped them get back to some of their zone runs.

Nate, I know you wrote really well about this over at Yahoo. I love that piece that you wrote. It was super helpful in parsing some of this that we were watching last year. I think it's next because it works. I think you're going to see a lot of teams using it because it works. The dolphins used it a lot, the falcons used it a lot. But when you see those teams, dolphins and RAM, specifically, that other teams are studying their cut-ups and their run packages and their sequencing and all of that, you're going to see teams copy. And I think this is a really good example of being able to blend this concept, specifically, to not only keep your entire menu open to you, to not give tells to aggressive defenses, But also to just keep adding things back in once they shifted to the duo team for the first time in the last several years, they were able to get back into some of their zone.

Explain that to listers. Even just explain to listers what pistol is in general.

Yeah. So pistol is when... I mean, it literally looks like a pistol. It's when the running back is lined up directly behind the quarterback, and the quarterback is, in this case, four steps or so behind the center. So instead of purely under center, where you also see the running back lined up behind the quarterback, the quarterback has some space between the center and himself. And instead of the shotgun, where the running back is off to one side of the quarterback, this blends the two together. And by doing so, the defenders can't really tell which direction the running back is going to go. And it's a little bit closer to formation, so the play can develop quicker than if it were just a pure shotgun. And if the back was offset, then the defender has a tell not only for some of the blitz and the pickups and things like that, but also which direction maybe the gaps are going to unfold because the running back is literally to one side. And then you can keep running things like play action. A lot of coaches don't like to run. Nate, you can elaborate on this. A lot of coaches don't like to run a full play action menu out of shotgun.

It just limits them. But pistol, you have a full menu open to yourself, and then you can also get to some zone stuff a little bit easier that way because, again, you're not just on one side of the quarterback as the running back.

I love that the Rams, and we've this with the entire Sean McVay career in Los Angeles, but even with Matthew Stafford, who's such an established quarterback and has things that he does well, they change what they do a lot, and they don't stay static. You can't stay static. And it's pretty cool, Nate, I know Stafford is one of your favorite quarterbacks, to see him evolving and doing stuff that you haven't seen before. It's not like they're the first team to ever run Pistol, but the league is just different now than it used to. I mean, the Pistle Of course, famously created by Tyler Thigpen in Kansas City. No, I'm joking.

Well, I know.

But he really was a fun one. And obviously, Kaepernick with the 49ers.

Yeah, people have done it. This isn't new. I don't say it's next because it's new. It's not new. But you see it a lot in the College.

Everything in the NFL has been done in some way before. But the way you're talking about marrying the running game, what gets you going about this, watching Stafford in this evolution, Nate?

Yeah, it's merging two worlds like Jordan was alluding to. And I thought the most important part is that defenses are really smart now. They've been smart before, but I think they're just that level of defensive play is higher than ever. And when teams... I mean, shoot, when Payne Manning was with the Colts, they were the first team to be 50 % shotgun. And that was insane at the time. That was crazy. They were 50 %. And now most of the teams are easily over 50. Some teams are over 90 % in the shotgun. And okay, when we have standard runs, if the runaback away from the tight end. It's all based on where the tight end is and where the runaback is. So if he's away from the tight end, they only can run this run, this run, this run. Okay, if we can limit it to rock, paper, scissors, and they only run rock and paper, okay, we can really make it easier on our defenders. So when you get to the and we're going to try Today.These are complicated things. They're big concepts. We're going to try to hit a few quickly, and then we'll wrap things up. It's been great to spend this Monday morning with you. I mean, let's be real. It's not Monday morning. It went in the feed overnight. We obviously taped it before. Let's talk about 12 Personnel just because this is obviously not a new thing, but it did pop up a little more in fun places last year. It is the second most common personnel usage. It was relatively at a high. Not that it had a huge spike last year, but it was one of the highest years of the last 10 years. But the team that used it the most was the packers, and it was just very effective with Luke Musgrave and Tucker Kraft, and it was just awesome. I think they're going to expand on that. We've seen it. We've seen, as the NFL evolves, and we've seen different times when it's more popular than others, obviously, the Gronk, Aaron Hernandez, when they really came out, that offense had a lot of new elements, but really, the way they used those two tight ends was a specific part of it.I think about, again, we're talking about lighter defenses. How can you take advantage of them? This is one way. I think of the packers and Lefleur, who had the Lefleur-assance last year, just cooking. And I think of the Bills with Kade and Dawson-Nox. I think of the Raiders this year with Michael Mayer and-Brock.Brock, of course.Your favorite name, I know already.I know. And Mark Andrews and Ezea likely in Baltimore. And so those are also... Those are all really compelling teams. And I'm curious just how they're going to be used. And I think there, at least, it's going to be ticking up, and especially the packers are going to be fun.Yeah, they love Yeah. I think, and Nate, I think, can speak on this, too. It's like teams don't like to sub, especially if they want to go fast. And so I think you might be onto something with an increase in a specific personnel usage increasing in that way, because if it's working, They're going to want to move the ball down the field. They don't want to sub back in, get another receiver on the field, float those guys in and out. They're going to want to just go, right? And I think that's another step in this that will, by proxy, increase the percentage of snaps that you see with those teams and with more teams who are running 12 personnel. They're not going to want to sub. And you see it with... I remember Matt Lafleur was talking last year about how he always was fascinated with the way that some of his cohorts used the larger receivers to be hybrid, fullback, tight-end guys who are doing some of the same type of disguises and blocking looks and basically making everything go. All these different personnel go out of 11 personnel. And I know Nate Classic joke that I'll always take with me everywhere was, you call it 11 and a half personnel between 11 and 12.But I think that with some of these coaches who do like that because you don't have to sub, you can go fast, and you don't have to bring guys on and off the field, what coaches like now is that you can capitalize against smaller, lighter defenders. You can, again, find the similar voids in the field the way that we've talked about this entire show. And you don't have to sub if you have multiple of tight ends who are capable of... Maybe you don't have three receivers. You want to keep on the field and your 12 works really well.Look at these teams, Ravens, raiders, those second tight ends. I mean, it's why I think Nate, not to cut you off, but I know you're getting used to it. I know we keep I know. I think Nate, when they drafted Bowers, you thought it makes sense because those two tight ends work together, and they don't have a third receiver. Now they have.I wanted them on the Rams. That's where I really wanted it. The Rams wanted it. I No. And I couldn't believe I almost manifested that. I was like, yeah, I was gitty about that for a minute. Well, are the Rams going to run more 12? Because they signed Kobe Parkinson.So I'm interested in that. I 100 % believe they're going to run more 12.I think so, too.Tyler could be coming off a serious injury that might take a while.Nobody sleep.Davis Allen.Fantasy football people don't sleep on Davis Allen. He had a good moments last year, and again, against the Ravens.Let's wrap up this show with you, Jordan, and you're going to give us our after dinner meant today.Yeah. So I like the concept of the after dinner meant that you introduced in the debut of the show. And I was a little nervous when you asked me to do it because I gravitate toward earnestness and bitter sweetness, right? Those are the spaces I like to be in. And I think about training camp's opening. You think about what the bubble of camp really means. It is a space where the players and the coaches are all... It's all very raw and real, and there's no hiding from anybody. You are who you are in that space for two, three weeks. You learn a lot about each other, and you work really hard, and there's a lot of pain. I remember, I think about some of the things that we pass to each other and some of the experiences that we pass to each other as humans. I remember a young man named Austin O'Connor, who went out to Carolina Panthers Training Camp in Spartanburg every single year with his dad, and sadly, his dad passed away. This was several years ago. And he decided that he was going to take his father's ashes and spread them all over the world where they'd taken trips.And one of those places was he traveled to Spartanburg, and he made the same drive that they did. And he went out to the field very, very early in the morning. And I want to paint the picture of Spartanburg there because it is unlike any other place to have a football practice. There's this humidity that rises from the ground down there. And it's this mist that swirls all around you. And so he walked to the edge of the field into the end zone, and he placed some of his father's ashes there. I remember thinking, that's happening. Then all of this players were having babies in camp. Their wives were having babies. Another player's brother passed away during camp. I mean, there was so much of existence and life happening in that very confined space. All of those things are part of the human experience and what we pass to each other. This is the mint that you expected. I know. No, I love it. But that's what every year when training camps open, I think of Austin O'Connor, I think of his father, and I think of walking through the mist that morning and him having that quiet moment and passing that into the field, the very field on which these players were about to have these very real, very honest, very vulnerable, raw, hard experiences with each other and build a team and camaraderie that they would then pass to each other through the rest of that season and beyond.I think it's beautiful. And I think as people that we've been working in football for a while, it's the start of the year. It's rebirth. It's everything. And yeah, rookies are reporting this week at a few places. The Texans will be the first team to report fully later in the week because they're in the Hall of Fame game. It is happening. And it's not just the feeling of, Okay, school starting, we're back. I know, Nate, you feel that that the NFL calendar is just your body clock at this point, and it's a certain fun, innocent, excitement. But I love that you pointed out the family aspect to it because the NFL is expensive, and training camp is affordable, and it's easy to go to. For anyone that hasn't gone to training camp, and if you have kids or if you don't, it's a great experience because you just see these players up close in a way that you would have to pay. You couldn't see them up close. No matter much you paid, if it was during the regular season, and the players are cool, they're in a better mood, you can scout and see which days that they're maybe doing a little extra versus days where they're not going through that much.You can find that out if you look at the beat writers and what the schedule is. But my son, he can't wait. He's begging to go because I think he has as much or more fun going to watch a training camp practice than he does going to a regular season game. There is just a beauty and an innocence about it.It was my first job. Training camp ball boy was my first job. It all makes sense now. Originally, yeah, I I always like the equipment guys, man. My first boss was Dennis Ryan, a long time equipment guy for the Minnesota Vikings. But it was... So for me, growing up, camp was... At first, it was work, and I was like, I'm missing all of August. Could be hanging out my friends and some in Mankado, Minnesota, staying at a college dorm with no air conditioning. And then as I got older, really, once I realized the path I was going down.Yeah, that's never happening for you. At some point, you just give it up and you're I was like, I'm not going to be that friend here.Yeah, right. And then camp started. And then I started looking forward to camp once I hit high school. Once I, ninth grade or so, hit, I was like, Oh, this is cool. I'm reading the script behind these players. So my memories of camp, and And I've gotten this as I got older, maybe away from the day to day of the game, but in my own media career and being around the draft a few times now and seeing what the drafts like is that it's hope. And I think that's what's so cool about Training Camp and the draft is that you're selling hope to the fans. And I think that's awesome. Not just the fans, I should say to the entire organization, into teams, into coaches. Everything's a clean slate. Oh, they caught us last year, but now we got Karl on our team. We didn't have Karl last year, but now we do. But you don't know who the secret What's your key is going to be. It could be Karl, it could be some six-round rookie, or it could be the number one freaking pick. And I think that's what's so cool. Nfl is not for long in a negative way, but it's also the opposite of that, is how much you can get built up.And I think that's why so many quickly, too. And I think that Puka Nakuwa, a great example. But I think that's what's so cool is that you can start seeing those flashes in the draft, and then you start seeing them camp, and then you start seeing it week one. And if you're a kid at 12 years old with your dad watching practice, you I remember when Puka caught that breakdown, and we said he was going to be good. And I think that's why camp, I think, has so many special memories for people. And I think, Greg, you brought the best point. It's usually very affordable. It's a very... It's free. It's free for a lot of people. I mean, the fans, they have fan events with them.Sweat equity.Yeah, right. Yeah. But the fans of fan events around them, I'm getting to see this from a media perspective because, again, I was always involved with the game, so I never stepped out into the parking lot. And so it's got pretty cool for me to see that from maybe a different perspective as I've gotten older, and I think it's great.Well, it was a great way to take a look at a big picture around the league a lot. We're looking forward to, and yeah, training camp is coming. Hope to have you back on some time, Nate, and obviously, Jordan. Loved having you again. That's it for NFL Daily today for Nate Thais and Jordan Roderick.ice and Jordan Rodriegue. We will be back on Tuesday, excited for this show with Colleen Wolf back in the Chris Westling podcast studio in Patrick Claibon. We will see you then.

and we're going to try Today.

These are complicated things. They're big concepts. We're going to try to hit a few quickly, and then we'll wrap things up. It's been great to spend this Monday morning with you. I mean, let's be real. It's not Monday morning. It went in the feed overnight. We obviously taped it before. Let's talk about 12 Personnel just because this is obviously not a new thing, but it did pop up a little more in fun places last year. It is the second most common personnel usage. It was relatively at a high. Not that it had a huge spike last year, but it was one of the highest years of the last 10 years. But the team that used it the most was the packers, and it was just very effective with Luke Musgrave and Tucker Kraft, and it was just awesome. I think they're going to expand on that. We've seen it. We've seen, as the NFL evolves, and we've seen different times when it's more popular than others, obviously, the Gronk, Aaron Hernandez, when they really came out, that offense had a lot of new elements, but really, the way they used those two tight ends was a specific part of it.

I think about, again, we're talking about lighter defenses. How can you take advantage of them? This is one way. I think of the packers and Lefleur, who had the Lefleur-assance last year, just cooking. And I think of the Bills with Kade and Dawson-Nox. I think of the Raiders this year with Michael Mayer and-Brock.Brock, of course.

Your favorite name, I know already.

I know. And Mark Andrews and Ezea likely in Baltimore. And so those are also... Those are all really compelling teams. And I'm curious just how they're going to be used. And I think there, at least, it's going to be ticking up, and especially the packers are going to be fun.

Yeah, they love Yeah. I think, and Nate, I think, can speak on this, too. It's like teams don't like to sub, especially if they want to go fast. And so I think you might be onto something with an increase in a specific personnel usage increasing in that way, because if it's working, They're going to want to move the ball down the field. They don't want to sub back in, get another receiver on the field, float those guys in and out. They're going to want to just go, right? And I think that's another step in this that will, by proxy, increase the percentage of snaps that you see with those teams and with more teams who are running 12 personnel. They're not going to want to sub. And you see it with... I remember Matt Lafleur was talking last year about how he always was fascinated with the way that some of his cohorts used the larger receivers to be hybrid, fullback, tight-end guys who are doing some of the same type of disguises and blocking looks and basically making everything go. All these different personnel go out of 11 personnel. And I know Nate Classic joke that I'll always take with me everywhere was, you call it 11 and a half personnel between 11 and 12.

But I think that with some of these coaches who do like that because you don't have to sub, you can go fast, and you don't have to bring guys on and off the field, what coaches like now is that you can capitalize against smaller, lighter defenders. You can, again, find the similar voids in the field the way that we've talked about this entire show. And you don't have to sub if you have multiple of tight ends who are capable of... Maybe you don't have three receivers. You want to keep on the field and your 12 works really well.

Look at these teams, Ravens, raiders, those second tight ends. I mean, it's why I think Nate, not to cut you off, but I know you're getting used to it. I know we keep I know. I think Nate, when they drafted Bowers, you thought it makes sense because those two tight ends work together, and they don't have a third receiver. Now they have.

I wanted them on the Rams. That's where I really wanted it. The Rams wanted it. I No. And I couldn't believe I almost manifested that. I was like, yeah, I was gitty about that for a minute. Well, are the Rams going to run more 12? Because they signed Kobe Parkinson.

So I'm interested in that. I 100 % believe they're going to run more 12.

I think so, too.

Tyler could be coming off a serious injury that might take a while.

Nobody sleep.Davis Allen.Fantasy football people don't sleep on Davis Allen. He had a good moments last year, and again, against the Ravens.

Let's wrap up this show with you, Jordan, and you're going to give us our after dinner meant today.

Yeah. So I like the concept of the after dinner meant that you introduced in the debut of the show. And I was a little nervous when you asked me to do it because I gravitate toward earnestness and bitter sweetness, right? Those are the spaces I like to be in. And I think about training camp's opening. You think about what the bubble of camp really means. It is a space where the players and the coaches are all... It's all very raw and real, and there's no hiding from anybody. You are who you are in that space for two, three weeks. You learn a lot about each other, and you work really hard, and there's a lot of pain. I remember, I think about some of the things that we pass to each other and some of the experiences that we pass to each other as humans. I remember a young man named Austin O'Connor, who went out to Carolina Panthers Training Camp in Spartanburg every single year with his dad, and sadly, his dad passed away. This was several years ago. And he decided that he was going to take his father's ashes and spread them all over the world where they'd taken trips.

And one of those places was he traveled to Spartanburg, and he made the same drive that they did. And he went out to the field very, very early in the morning. And I want to paint the picture of Spartanburg there because it is unlike any other place to have a football practice. There's this humidity that rises from the ground down there. And it's this mist that swirls all around you. And so he walked to the edge of the field into the end zone, and he placed some of his father's ashes there. I remember thinking, that's happening. Then all of this players were having babies in camp. Their wives were having babies. Another player's brother passed away during camp. I mean, there was so much of existence and life happening in that very confined space. All of those things are part of the human experience and what we pass to each other. This is the mint that you expected. I know. No, I love it. But that's what every year when training camps open, I think of Austin O'Connor, I think of his father, and I think of walking through the mist that morning and him having that quiet moment and passing that into the field, the very field on which these players were about to have these very real, very honest, very vulnerable, raw, hard experiences with each other and build a team and camaraderie that they would then pass to each other through the rest of that season and beyond.

I think it's beautiful. And I think as people that we've been working in football for a while, it's the start of the year. It's rebirth. It's everything. And yeah, rookies are reporting this week at a few places. The Texans will be the first team to report fully later in the week because they're in the Hall of Fame game. It is happening. And it's not just the feeling of, Okay, school starting, we're back. I know, Nate, you feel that that the NFL calendar is just your body clock at this point, and it's a certain fun, innocent, excitement. But I love that you pointed out the family aspect to it because the NFL is expensive, and training camp is affordable, and it's easy to go to. For anyone that hasn't gone to training camp, and if you have kids or if you don't, it's a great experience because you just see these players up close in a way that you would have to pay. You couldn't see them up close. No matter much you paid, if it was during the regular season, and the players are cool, they're in a better mood, you can scout and see which days that they're maybe doing a little extra versus days where they're not going through that much.

You can find that out if you look at the beat writers and what the schedule is. But my son, he can't wait. He's begging to go because I think he has as much or more fun going to watch a training camp practice than he does going to a regular season game. There is just a beauty and an innocence about it.

It was my first job. Training camp ball boy was my first job. It all makes sense now. Originally, yeah, I I always like the equipment guys, man. My first boss was Dennis Ryan, a long time equipment guy for the Minnesota Vikings. But it was... So for me, growing up, camp was... At first, it was work, and I was like, I'm missing all of August. Could be hanging out my friends and some in Mankado, Minnesota, staying at a college dorm with no air conditioning. And then as I got older, really, once I realized the path I was going down.

Yeah, that's never happening for you. At some point, you just give it up and you're I was like, I'm not going to be that friend here.

Yeah, right. And then camp started. And then I started looking forward to camp once I hit high school. Once I, ninth grade or so, hit, I was like, Oh, this is cool. I'm reading the script behind these players. So my memories of camp, and And I've gotten this as I got older, maybe away from the day to day of the game, but in my own media career and being around the draft a few times now and seeing what the drafts like is that it's hope. And I think that's what's so cool about Training Camp and the draft is that you're selling hope to the fans. And I think that's awesome. Not just the fans, I should say to the entire organization, into teams, into coaches. Everything's a clean slate. Oh, they caught us last year, but now we got Karl on our team. We didn't have Karl last year, but now we do. But you don't know who the secret What's your key is going to be. It could be Karl, it could be some six-round rookie, or it could be the number one freaking pick. And I think that's what's so cool. Nfl is not for long in a negative way, but it's also the opposite of that, is how much you can get built up.

And I think that's why so many quickly, too. And I think that Puka Nakuwa, a great example. But I think that's what's so cool is that you can start seeing those flashes in the draft, and then you start seeing them camp, and then you start seeing it week one. And if you're a kid at 12 years old with your dad watching practice, you I remember when Puka caught that breakdown, and we said he was going to be good. And I think that's why camp, I think, has so many special memories for people. And I think, Greg, you brought the best point. It's usually very affordable. It's a very... It's free. It's free for a lot of people. I mean, the fans, they have fan events with them.

Sweat equity.

Yeah, right. Yeah. But the fans of fan events around them, I'm getting to see this from a media perspective because, again, I was always involved with the game, so I never stepped out into the parking lot. And so it's got pretty cool for me to see that from maybe a different perspective as I've gotten older, and I think it's great.

Well, it was a great way to take a look at a big picture around the league a lot. We're looking forward to, and yeah, training camp is coming. Hope to have you back on some time, Nate, and obviously, Jordan. Loved having you again. That's it for NFL Daily today for Nate Thais and Jordan Roderick.ice and Jordan Rodriegue. We will be back on Tuesday, excited for this show with Colleen Wolf back in the Chris Westling podcast studio in Patrick Claibon. We will see you then.