What is up, Daddy Gang? It is your founding father, Alex Cooper with Call Her Daddy. Hi. Hi. Kate Hudson.

Excuse me if I have these disgusting cough episodes. Oh, are you sick? No, I had that lingering three-week cough.

You came here to get me sick.

If you get sick, it wasn't me. No, it wasn't you. I am not contagious.

You came in here to fuck this I'm going to get her really sick and leave and give her no tea. No, it's going to be great. Okay, so you're in an entire new phase of your life right now with this new venture of music. Congratulations. I know.

Well, only in In public. You know what I mean? Music has been in my life, my whole life, whether it was me or whether it was with my exes, partners. But yeah, no, I finally was like, You know what? If I don't share it, I'll just regret it.

That's what I think is interesting. When you think of Kate Hudson, everyone's like, actress. Is it terrifying to come out with music, or are you excited? Are you nervous?

I think it was terrifying, which is why I didn't do it. And I'm an Aries. I'm supposed to be fearless. And I was like, why am I so terrified to share my writing, really? And I think it's because when I grew up and was young and became well known, and I got famous young. So I was 20 years old, and At that time, you don't switch careers. There was no, Oh, you're going to be a movie star, and then you're going to be... And then you can be a rock star. It's like, No, stay in one lane. Everyone tells you to stay in one lane. Don't break what's not broken. So I had this thing. It was like, the one thing I loved the most was just going to take a back seat. And so my dream was like, Okay, well, I can do musicals, and then maybe that's how I incorporate music into my life. And then it just time gets away from you and kids and things and COVID happened. And I'm sitting on hundreds and hundreds of songs that I've never... I'm so scared to put that out, but why? And so I had to tackle that.

And then I was just like, fuck it. If I don't do it, then I will be on my deathbed, and it will be a great regret of mine.

Well, I think it's incredible you're doing it also because you have a really good voice.

Oh, thanks.

No, but I think sometimes, to be honest, I think people are always like, Oh, God, another fucking actress is going to now try to do a singing career or vice versa. Yeah, the singer goes to try to act. I'm listening to you and I'm like, Oh, you have a fucking great voice.

It's funny because that's been part of my hesitation is I don't see the instrument as a technician. I I think there's certain technicians of the instrument that are fucking brilliant. And you listen to them and you're like, Whoa, they can do runs for days, and they can hit certain notes and things. I never saw myself as a technician of the instrument. So when I'm writing music, I write for my voice, or I write what I'm feeling. So that always, for me, was like, oh, if I can't hit that note, then what does that mean? And so I also had to just let it go.

Let that go and just sing my own. Well, I also think what you were saying is your lyrics. As I was going through your music, I'm like, Oh, so much of your lyrics are about love and your relationship and heartbreak and moving on and knowing when to move on. And Romeo, I feel like is a great summer bop. You like Romeo?

Yeah. Oh, my God. I love it. I think it's a vibe. I love Romeo so much. It's a good vibe. Romeo makes me happy. That song just is like, I just want to put it on in the car in the summer. Yes. I love that. That's the one you mentioned.

But then I also love that you go to the complete opposite side and it's like, Love Ain't Easy. And I'm like, you're just flexing your vocals. I'm like, holy fucking shit. It's like a beautiful, I guess, ballad, and it's gorgeous. But so much of listening to it, I felt like I got to know you a little bit more. And I want to talk a little bit about that today because I'm like, okay, when you were When you were growing up, how was sex and dating discussed in your household?

In our house? Yeah. Oh, I mean, I have very open, progressive parents-ish, progressiveish parents. Those were things that were always very open. And I think part of why we were never super rebellious was because there was no mystery around those things. So even Even like, partying. My parents love to have a good time. And we grew up seeing them enjoy their life, laugh with friends, talk about naughty things sometimes, overhear things that were like, What are they talking about? But this mystery of connection and why we connect with people was never something that was hidden that we didn't talk about.

I think that's a good point because I feel like not to shit on the kids that parents were so strict. But I had a similar upbringing where my parents were very open about things. So I was never like, I want to go experiment and do all this shit behind their back because fuck you, you're making me stay home. I felt like I was lucky to have that. But I I don't see a lot of kids where you can go the opposite way because if your parent tells you not to do something, you naturally want to do it sometimes. So if you have people that are talking openly about, especially I think for women, about not actual sex. Like, your mom's not like, Kate, let Let me tell you about this. But when you're... Well, did she? No.

I mean, not when I was young.

What were you like with guys growing up? Were you confident? Totally boy crazy.

Really? Oh, yeah. I'm still boy crazy. You are? Yeah. Boys are fun. I have a good boy right now. I have a really awesome boy. But I'm doing this show right now where I play the president of a basketball team. So I'm basically surrounded by men all day. And you're just happy? I went home to Danny. I was like, Honey, I'm having the time of my life. I love you, and I am very committed. But I feel so lucky. It's like I was born for this job. Stop. But I was very boy crazy. Okay. But I was also very prude. Oh, really? Love to have fun, love to be flirty, super prude.

Really? Yeah. What was your personality in high school?

I did I didn't want to be there. Why? Because I was ready to have my own apartment somewhere in the world. I was in ninth grade, just someone give me a martini and a cigarette and some book on a balcony in Paris. I don't know. I can see it a little bit in my daughter. I wasn't into the high school party scene. I wanted to be in theater. I wanted to be singing. I wanted to be traveling the world. I was ready. Got it. To me, high school felt like it was holding me back. I get that. And I was like, Oh, you're just holding me back. Now I look back at high school, and I feel like it was one of the great experiences of my life. But I was definitely the mom of the bunch. When all my friends were partying, I was designated driver. I would take care of everybody.

I didn't expect that.

Yeah, Everybody thinks I'm a total party. I was the opposite.

So you're always DDing, still to this day? Always.

Well, I mean, not now, but back then, I was very straight.

Were you bullied at all? I'm still pretty straight. Were you octed? Totally.

Really? Yeah, because look, when you're young, if you're confident in something, people don't really like it. So I remember I was like, I knew exactly what I wanted to do. I was very focused. I I wanted to be in theater. I wanted to be working and doing things. And there's a lot of girls who just rolled their eyes at that. And so, yeah, I wouldn't say bullied, but there was a lot of gossipy talk behind back type stuff.

That makes sense, where girls are just like, She's fucking annoying. And then you're like, What? Because I know what I want to do.

And I guess because I wasn't... I think girls who don't party, you can sometimes get that, too. It's like, Oh, you're It's too good to get drunk with us. And I was like, No, I actually just don't want to do a keg stand with you right now. I don't want to get wasted. But I'm happy to hold your hair when you're throwing up. So I was like that girl, and it would, I think, sometimes bother girls.

I get that, too.

But it didn't bother me.

You're not judging them for doing the keg stand. No. You got the hair tie ready.

Yeah, and I just didn't- I just wasn't like that.

But I I think when you're at a place in your life where you're like, don't feel like you're in the same position as people mentality-wise, it's hard to fit in anywhere. If you're ready to move on and everyone's like, we're loving this. We're going to the tailgate tonight, and you're like, stab me.

I think these young social structure, clicky Lord of the Flies type things that happen are actually really important. How you deal with them at school and then how you deal with them at home with your family and how they're supported, I think, are so important. I feel like it's good to have a little bit of friction when you're growing up and people saying mean things. Sometimes it's like, Oh, you need a little bit of that to power through it and to realize in retrospect, to be able to reflect, look back and go, Wow, I'm so happy that that wasn't who I am and that I had a little bit of that scarring.

It's a good point.

Get you through certain things because it doesn't get better. No. It does not. The world is a... I mean, human nature is quite brutal. So how do we... Those small communities, you're going to have, for friction in high school. What was your friction?

I definitely had a similar experience where I was ready to get out. I knew I wanted to do all of this. I was the video production nerd, but I was also at the same time the jock. So I hid from everyone that I liked video production, and I would lie to everyone. They're like, Why are you doing that for your elective every year? I'm like, I don't know. They said, I'm good. It's so annoying, but whatever. It's easy. I would lie because I was embarrassed because everyone would make fun of me for liking that shit. And I was the jock. So they're like, You're the soccer girl. You can't be both. And what we talked about at the beginning of this episode, it's like, you can never be both. And I think, especially for women, it's like, You definitely can't be both. That can't be possible. And I was insecure. I was super awkward and gawky, aren't we all? And it wasn't great. But I do look back and in the moment I was like, fuck my fucking life. I need to get to college. Then when I got to college, I was like, I'm ready to go to New York City.

Get me the fuck out of here. I feel like at every stage of my life in those scolastic moments, I was like, I'm ready to leave. I'm not meant to be here. But then I look back and I'm like, I learned so much about myself.

I know. And then you look back, too, and you're like, oh, and then you had these great big, fun, awesome moments. Sometimes I look, there's certain people People, too, that were just always wonderful. You... This girl, Hillary and Jessica. And I look at these girls, I'm like, God, I wonder what they're doing now. They must be the greatest mother of all time because they were so even, and they had kind to everybody, and helping you organize your own thoughts. Did you get your homework done? Oh, yeah. Oh, shit. So it's like, I don't know. You look back on that little mic. It's like a micro bosom of what the bigger picture- No, you're right.

It's like, sometimes I think we have a hard time pinpointing the positives in situations. I found an old laptop from college, and I had some fucked up shit happened to me in college. And And I looked back at this really specific time in my life as negative. And I remember opening my laptop and almost getting so emotional because I'm like, I had the best time. I fucking love these girls, and I love these people. So when there's something negative that happens, it's hard to remember all the positive, but most of it- Well, our brain does lean more, unfortunately, to the negative.

Yeah, true.

Tell me about your first love.

My first love? Yeah. My My first real love was my ex-husband. I was young. I met him when I was 20. I actually met him when I was 18.

Okay.

19. And he was just not a very nice rock star type. I remember thinking, God, he was so mean. And then I met him again at 20, and he wasn't that mean. I must have caught him on a bad night or something. And yeah, first real I love him in my life.

How soon did you date to then get married?

Oh, gosh, it was a whirlwind. We were engaged in four months and married in nine months. And then three years, then I wanted to have a baby, and we had Ryder. And then it started to do that downward spiral.

The classic. The classic. We all know it. How did you know you were ready for marriage at 21?

There wasn't an ounce of me that I wasn't... I didn't question it for a second. Really? Yeah. We were so connected. And Chris taught me so much about love and connection. It was just a wonderfully passionate relationship.

Did anyone around you be like, Kate, please don't get married right now?

No. The people I live in let people make mistakes. Okay.

So your mom didn't care.

She's like- Yeah. And by the way, not a mistake. I look back at my entire life at this point, and I'm like, I actually feel like I might have gotten it right. Love. There's this construct that we're supposed to do it a certain way, which I understand because I really believe in the unit, and I think it's what's missing right now. But I do believe that a unit can exist differently than this very religious concept of marriage and male/female relationship. I really believe that a unit can be, even if someone is alone in their life and hasn't met the love of their life, that they could have a best friend, that they live close together, and they can raise their children together and have values inside of that that can be really important for children. So for me, having the means and the ability to choose choose to be more healthy in relationships means that it's been easier for me to exit unhealthy relationships. Interesting. Whereas if I probably didn't have the means, it would be a much more challenging thing. But inside of that, just because you're not supposed to be with someone doesn't mean that you can't create a big, beautiful experience.

Totally. I don't know how I've been able to do it, but it's like, we just do it, all of us.

What would you say? Because I think you're right, and I love how you describe that. I think so many people can be judgmental if you don't follow the traditional route. It's like, 21 is too young, but then 30 is too old. It's like, you can't fucking win as a woman. What was the best and then the hardest parts of being married in your early 20s?

I just jump in the deep end of everything. So it's like... I mean, the best thing was that I, in a time that could have been probably not very grounded, I've always sought home. I've always sought... I like my cozy... I'm a homebody, and I've always wanted a big family. I've always wanted to work hard and have a big, fun, crazy life. But I like to be home. And so even when I was young, I longed for that family, family family connection. I grew up like that. So when I met Chris, it's like when my career was taking off, it was also a time that could have been a whirlwind. And instead, I was in this very grounding, loving relationship. Right.

You had that stability, even though, externally, it looked all chaos because your life is like, you're thriving, you're a movie star, you get to go home to this guy and you're like, This is what I prefer.

We just had a cozy, great vibe. I think something I was reading about you that I think is really relatable is you talk about how when your marriage ended, you still had so much love for this person.

And I'm wondering if you have any advice for women listening of maybe someone just went through a breakup and they're still so in love with their ex, but they know they need to move on. How the fuck do you do that?

Let's be very clear. If I didn't have children, I probably would never speak Stop. I'm kidding. No. The thing is, I don't know if it has something. I guess it's an attachment thing, I guess. It's like how we attach to pain or why something isn't working or what the expectation is of what you wanted from the relationship, and then that expectation letting you down, and then people suffer because they've I put such an expectation on what something's supposed to look like. Versus my choice through life is just being more open. And that doesn't mean that it's without pain and sadness and working through stuff and reflecting and taking accountability. And I'll come back to the accountability part, because I think that's the most important thing. But at the end of the day, I believe you love If you love them once, you really love them in some way forever, even if you can't stand them, if you really loved them, if it was pure, it wasn't coming from someplace unhealthy. You'll love them through anything. Maybe not romantically, but that will always be there. And I do believe that it shifts, just It's like friendships shift.

My best friendships have gone through times where we are like, don't talk 40 times a day to not seeing each other for a year. But there's always that foundation. I believe that with great loves of your life. And I will always, even in the hardest time, to be able to see the people that I've been with and that I've shared intimacy with in a loving way. I also I also believe that that's a choice. I choose to do that. I do that because I think it's more peaceful for me, which makes it more peaceful for my children. But I think the biggest thing about relationships and when they end is how you're being accountable. And I think most people hold on to all the shit when they're not taking accountability for their own thing. It's a good point. It doesn't matter. There's always two people in the relationship. So you can't just point a finger out. You always have to look back and the old one finger and three pointed back at you.

It's a great point. I love everything you just said, because I think I had a conversation. I think it was with Camila Caballo, and she was like, Yeah, it's tough. Where does the love go? When you break up with someone that you love so much, it's a strange thing to know. They're alive and they're out there, and I'm here.

And that's why that Gautier song was so... It was so like it hit a nerve for everybody. Yes. Somebody that I used to know. You're like, God, why didn't I write that? But yeah, it's tough. But what did she... Is that...

No, she She basically just said, it hurts, but it's like, you know it's not supposed to be anymore. It was we change constantly as people. I'm the same person, but a different version of myself. When I was 21, oh, my God. I was madly in love. I'm not in love with him anymore, but I still, yes, I think you're right. I choose to know that I still have love for all these people that I loved. I think when it ends really badly, if someone like, did you fucking dirty and cheated on you and you find out and you're like, Oh, my God, I think you never respect me. Fuck. That can hurt. But again, it's like, how did it get to that point? You can always look back at yourself and be like, Could I have done this or could I have done that? And sometimes they're just a piece of shit, and you're like, You couldn't have done any better.

I have a friend who said something really great, which is when you're in something and you're going through a wave, he was also talking about it like a DNA strand. People say it's like a roller coaster, but it's more like when you're with someone for a long time, it's like it circulates, it moves. And I thought that was a very a beautiful image for a long term intimate relationship. And as it's shifting, when You start to feel yourself off balance. It's much easier for us to go out, to externalize it and go, I'm not getting this, or I'm not receiving that. This is what that would look like over here? And what if I had this over there? And what I believe happens as you get older or healthier, maybe not an age thing, but is when you go internal, that That issue, or that wave or that cycle, it starts to move differently. You're not seeking anything externally. You're only really looking at it internally, which can only in turn, really make the relationship relationship, more intimate, and honestly more, I would say, connective, because you're not seeking it from somewhere else. And then if you get to that place where you're like, I don't know if I can do this anymore.

It's not coming from anything you need from the outside world.

I think that the concept of accountability in relationships is not talked about enough. And I love that you brought up because it also gives you so much more autonomy over your own life when you actually take accountability as opposed to being like, he did this to me. And he's like, no, no one can do anything to you other than physically.

Unless you're in a very, very scary- Oh, my gosh.

Yeah. Abusive- Put all of that aside. If someone's making you feel a certain way, you have the ability to control your own emotions and your actions and what you're doing and how you're reacting.

Yeah. And look, everybody holds their own wild card. Yeah. Sometimes that wild card works for some people, and it really doesn't for others. And if you're holding two completely different wild cards, it can get fucking really tumultuous and wild. But if you're holding the same wild card, if someone is like, Hey, here's the deal. I want an open relationship. I could never be faithful to you. I'd be like, Oh, my God. Thank you for saying that. I can't be with you. But I have so much respect for your honesty. But if you're like, This person told me he couldn't be faithful to me, but I decided to be with this person anyway, and now we're in this tumultuous relationship and I'm miserable, I'd be like, If I was my own girlfriend, I'd be like, Babe, this is more about you than it is about him. That's on you.

He told you. He was honest.

He was honest.

And you still rode the wave.

Yeah. You're holding different wild cards. If you were like, great, then I'm going to do the same. Totally. Then you guys would have a... I mean, you No, it's a great point.

It's like, sometimes we also, I think people, and it depends on where you're at, I think health-wise. It's like, I, when I was younger, oh, blinders on. I'm like, he told me this. I'm like, no, he didn't. No, he didn't. He didn't say that to me. I'm like, short term memory. And it was because I wanted what I wanted, and I wasn't listening to what was being said directly to my face. It's like, you're an idiot. He literally told you he's cheated on his last 17 girlfriend. What do you think was going to happen? I'm going to change No, you're not.

And also, a lot of people, I think, find themselves in relationships where people feel insecure, and they want to put people down, and you take it. And at some point, I think a lot of women I know have been in this situation. At some point, you can point your finger out at them, but you can... Somehow you're like, Why am I accepting this?

Why am I here?

Yeah. And it feeds that push-pull thing that a lot of people get very toxically into. I love.

No, I used to love it. I was like, Oh my God, I'm alive. I was like, Kate, I'm alive. And now if I would meet someone at that point in my life, I think when I got to later in my 20s, I was like, I'm exhausted. Absolutely get the fuck away from me if you're playing games. But in my early 20s, it kept my heart beating. I was like, This is a thrill. And it was just all because I didn't want stability at that point.

I Yeah, you got to learn. You got to be like...

I have scenarios for you because you have wisdom. I'm going to give you a scenario. I want to know if you would keep seeing the guy or if this would be a deal breaker. I I'm going to give you a scenario. I want to know if you would keep seeing the guy or if this would be a deal breaker. Okay. You catch him going through your phone and he says it's because you've been distant.

How long have I been with him?

You've been together for eight months.

Oh, done. Out. See you later. Weird. So weird.

What about two years?

Then maybe I'd be like, Okay, what am I doing that's making you feel insecure? And by the way, you can go into my phone anytime. You don't need to look at that. If I'm with someone for two years, I'm not one of those people that's like, Why are you looking in my phone? It's like, Here's my phone. I wouldn't live with secrecy or feel like I need You know? Yeah.

Have you ever caught someone going through your phone?

Oh, yeah. Emails.

How did you find out?

I could tell where there was like, logins. It was stupid. It was Yeah, which also is like, bye. You got to be smarter than that.

You almost get the ick because you're like, wait, it would have been cooler if you were so sly. Yeah, but you're- I'm getting a notification.

It's like, what are you doing? No. Clearly, someone's on my iPad or my computer, whatever.

It's on my phone. It's like, ding. Someone just logged in to your MacBook.

Your boyfriend is on your- Stop.

And did you confront? Did you end it?

It was already on the way out. Okay. It was like- It's good to know?

Yeah. Have you ever gone through a phone?

Oh, yeah. Are you kidding? Especially with shady guys, like full on.

How do you get in?

Oh, girls, any girl who says I would never is alive.

Oh, my God. It's my favorite hobby back in the day.

I mean, at some point in your life, a girl has been like, No, I'm going to... No. Yeah. Something's up. It's one thing if something's not up, then you should feel It's just a random Sunday. Then you're like, Okay, you have Trust Issues. You got to figure that out. It's one thing if the guy is being fully shady and not telling you the truth, and you're like, No, I need some concrete evidence.

Don't CIA.

I'm going to figure this out. Then you get it, and then... Fuck. Yeah. I mean, please. Yes. It was a fabulous game.

Okay, but when you play the game and you find things, how do you handle it? Because most of the time they're like, Oh, it's Nolen Void. You went through my fucking I'm on the phone, you crazy bitch.

Yeah. Okay. It doesn't matter. You're out of my life. So what are we talking about? Yeah. Thank God, because now I'm never going to see you again. This is great. But I'm really You would have to be doing something really shitty. You know what I mean? Like, oh, no.

You wouldn't care.

You're telling me one thing and doing another, and I'm not going to do that. So I'm going to find out and then I also did do the thing, too, which is fun, where you just lie. Yeah. Where you're just like, no, I read it. I read it. I read this. Or I know you were here. How do you know that?

Because I have a friend that's the bartender, and she was there and she saw you.

Oh, it's so fun. I've done all of it.

And that's the best is when you know they've fucked you over, and then you come up with the best lie of all time, and it's like, oh my God. They can't even believe it.

And they're like, sweating. God, Head.

And you're like, you know what's really sad? I used to do this. It's like, I know everything. And then they'd go pale white. So I told you, I know everyone in New York. So when you go to the Great White and you're there and you're having drinks with her, what do you think I was going to... Do you think I wasn't going to know? And he's like, Shitting his pants. Meanwhile, I didn't have any friends at the Great White. Just saw on his phone that he was like, Meet me at the Great White. But you make it up, and then you get out of it unscathed.

But people wonder why women should rule the world because we're incredibly I'm resourceful. It's like, Guys, we're going to strategize this, and by the end of it, you're going to be sweating bullets, and I'm going to leave you.

The difference is we get notifications that you're hacking into our computers. We come up with lies. You didn't even know we went into your fucking iPhone.

I know. Guys are so funny. I love guys so much because they're very simple. Not that they're not complex, but the The foundation of how men work isn't that challenging. It's not. They're super straightforward. I think we expect them to be more complicated.

We give them more credit For sure.

Than it actually is.

Half the time, if they're giving you... If you get a weird vibe, the weird vibe is right. They're cheating or they're doing... Sometimes women will be like, Well, maybe it's because his grandmother was not feeling well, so maybe he's been acting weird. No, it's what you think it is. He's cheating. Yeah.

Or if there's three burner phones, there's a problem. You know what I mean? It's going to get weird at some point. If you see a burner phone in a DOB kit, just run. It's not going to be a good ending. Which has happened to a couple of friends of mine where I'm like, No. What do you do if you see this? And I'm like, Oh, my God, babe. Run. Well, first look on it because I would love to know. We need the thrill. You got to know. We got to know. I thought I was something to talk about over dinner. Or take it. Just steal it. Just take the phone and then never talk to him again.

And then you call the number, you meet up with the girl, you get cocktails, you laugh about it. No, you have to look at it, though. You're right. It's comedy because sometimes men are so dense. I also love men, and sometimes men are so simple, and they're really just showing you their cards immediately. How old are you?

29. Okay. See, I'm in the age where everyone's married, and we live vicariously through our late 20s or early 30s friends, where we're like, Oh, let me tell you the story. Now we're all like... We're in the Okay. Is your husband going to go to the four-year-old's birthday party, or are the girls going to this birthday? How many fucking birthday parties are there this weekend? What are we doing? Are we just staying home? It's just very normal. Now, you're in the normal. We're in the raising kids phase, which is just like, soccer games, baseball games, birthday parties.

There's no- There's no burner phones.

No. But sometimes we want a little burner I was like, someone could... I have a friend who is someone with a burner phone.

Sometimes you want a little burner phone action. No, I think that's such a good point, though. It's like, ladies, stop ignoring the fucking signs. If it's right in front of you, it's probably what it looks like. But it's hard.

I know. You have friends who are more dramatic than others, and we all have to let each other go through it. I just don't like when people... We know when it turns and it's unhealthy that we need to rally around our friends. If something is not right, and they're stuck in a really unhealthy, and it's not funny anymore.

Yes. When it's not funny anymore- Yeah, then you're like, okay, you know what?

What's going on?

It's almost like when the girl dinners because all of the girlfriends talk about each other, and it's not even behind your back. It's like, oh, God, she's with him again. We know he's going to cheat again, and we love her to death. From that, when it gets to, I don't even want to fucking hear about it. You've literally exhausted all of us. That's when it gets scary because you're like, now you've alienated yourself, and we feel bad, as opposed to be like, Jessica, what are you doing with him again?

And we can't help you or support it. That's hard.

That's hard. That's hard. Okay. He's really close friends with his ex.

Oh, interesting. How close is close?

They get lunch, I would say, every month, every other month, and they- Do they have a kid? No.

Oh, problematic. For me, personally.

For me, too.

If they had a kid, I'd be like, Oh, this is family, and we have to bring her all in. And my other thing is, if I'm going to have dinner with her, and then you're going to go If we have lunch with her, we're good. If we're all besties... My best friend was my ex's ex-girlfriend. Hold on. Well, it's not as complicated as it sounds. Basically, I met my best friend through my ex ex-husband who used to date her. Oh, fascinating. So when I was married to him, I met her. We became best friends.

Got it. And that was his ex.

And that was his ex. But we loved each other. There was no like, I'm going to go have dinner with or lunch with my ex-girlfriend.

You were included.

Oh, yeah. And she'd rather be with me than hang out with him. So that makes sense to me.

I agree. I think it does depend sometimes on did you meet the... Did you know the ex? This is fucking confusing me. Did you know the person before or after? If my best friend became best friends with my ex, I'd be like, Where's the fucking loyalty? You didn't know him before me. You know what I mean?

Okay, wait.

Okay, here we go.

You mean if you're bestie- I'm dating a guy.

Okay. And my best friend meets him, likes him, we break up, and she stays friends with him? Odd.

It depends.

I guess it depends how it ended.

It depends.

He ruined my life. He cheated on me.

I mean, it's tough. That's a tough one because I think it would be like... It also depends on if you... Is she into him?

Right.

That's fair. You can feel when it's is or when it isn't.

No, I think it's also just about respect. Communicate with your fucking friends. If you're staying friends with your girl's ex and you guys are in love, well- Okay, I'm going to give you a scenario.

Okay. You're not friends with this girl. You You have mutual friend groups. Mutual friend groups that run into each other here and there at a party. Oh, hey, nice to see you. They're like, Oh, good. She breaks up with her boyfriend. I don't know. Whenever six months, a year later, you end up with the boyfriend. Does she have a right to be mad at you?

Okay. You said the only moment I hang out with her is in big friend groups. Yeah. She's around.

Maybe you share a A friend.

We've never gone to a lunch. You don't text. No. Oh, my God. She can't be mad. Okay. Absolutely not.

Yeah. Well, there's a lot of people who would say otherwise. And I'm like, that's crazy.

That's networking. How are we supposed to meet anyone?

I don't know you. Right.

If you can't be mad at me. No, that's crazy. That's fucking crazy. If it's your best friend, that's it. It's all that matters. Yeah.

If it's even a close friend.

A close friend, of course. Then you can have a conversation of like, this is also tough where it's awkward. It's like, then you go on- But girls who throw shade to girls that are dating, but they don't know them.

I think that's weird.

No, you got to move on. And I also think if you don't have their phone number, you owe them literally nothing.

I agree. Okay.

Okay. I like that. We're moving on. He has an extremely high sex drive and is trying to go every day, twice a day.

I mean, I'm not mad at it. First of all, twice a... I mean, it'd be one thing if it's four times a day, you'd be like, this is...

We're exhausted.

And this is weird because what happens when I have to Leave. Leave for a week?

True. Is this something you need every day, regardless of whether I'm here or not?

And it also depends on his age because it would determine whether or not he was- Just gone through it. Yeah. Or if he was young, that would make sense. If he's 40 something, men's libidos go down at late 20s. Right.

So he's a sex addict.

So if his libido is that high, it's like, what are you on? Literally. I always say it's about women, especially as women get older, there's this concept around women that they should become less sexual as they get older. But the reality is that women, as we get older, our libidos more intensified to a certain age than men's. So it's this made up thing that women, as we get older, are supposed to be- Like, died out.

We're not even having sex. We're not sexual.

It's literally the opposite. So somewhere down the line, men didn't really want women to be very sexy as they got older, I think. So they made it so like, Oh, no. If you're no longer mating for us, then you should just go over here. So true. When in reality, it's like women into their 40s, sometimes 50s, are like, Very much. Sexual. Yeah.

Did I read this correctly that your therapist once told you to take a break from men for a year?

Yeah. Where did I say that? Yeah. I took a full year off You did it? I was like, What? I couldn't. I couldn't. No. Yeah, none of it. But it was great.

How old were you when you did this?

Thirty-something. I was at that place where I was like, I don't want to keep repeating any patterns anymore. I have a great therapist who was like, I can help you, but you have to do it.

You got to get off the sauce, Kate.

He's like, Get off the sauce. Well, mind me, I always get distracted. You like to flirt.

You like boys. You said you love boys.

I just love the... Like, oh, this is fun. I'm going to text this person. But it was really interesting because he took me... Basically, I was like, Okay, well, I guess I can't even text guys.

You couldn't flirt. If a guy came up to you, you're just not interested.

Yeah. I mean, I could talk to them, but I couldn't give them my number. So they'd be like, Can I have your number? I'd be like, You know? No. No. My therapist said no. I'm not there right now. But it was strangely empowering because it got very uncomfortable for me in the beginning, the first couple I was like... My mojo was like... I was just like, Oh, God. I was just felt like I hadn't... I was like, What am I doing? I'm not like... Not me. Yeah. It's not fun. And then because we were going through very specific type of therapy, it was really about figuring out certain things that were happening. And then I had this one breakthrough that was very emotional that I don't think I would have been able to access if I had any distraction. So it allowed me to see things much more clearly. And then within six months, I was like, I didn't care about my phone. I didn't care about If I was going to go out and meet my girlfriends, I wasn't that thing where I'm like, Oh, I wonder if so and so would be there, or like, Oh, we should maybe call up so and so and then do that.

There was no desire for me to be doing anything that had anything to do with potential flirtation. Right. So then when I was doing that, I remember my therapist a year A year later was like, Okay, I think you can flirt again. I was like, What? I can flirt? And he's like, Yeah. I was like, What does that mean? He's like, How do I flirt? I forgot. And then I remember all these guys would start texting And I'd be like, I didn't have the same attachment to it anymore. It just went away. That's fascinating. I didn't get that like, oh. I was just like, Oh, no. It just didn't have the same pull.

Interesting.

It became... And then the guys that I would normally have been like, oh, was like, mm-mm. No.

That's incredible.

It was pretty amazing.

So you lasted the year?

Oh, yeah. I'm very disciplined. Damn. Yeah.

It was good. One year.

One year, and... Yeah. It's pretty incredible. I did it a lot longer because then I was so happy single. I was single for three and a half years.

Being single is incredible. If you're in the right place and you're mentally focused on yourself, you're like, I am fucking great. I don't need anyone. And that's where you want to get to when you're single. I love it. I have empathy for women that when you get through out of a relationship, you almost have those withdrawal symptoms of like, oh, my God, I'm used to having a partner. I'm used to having them here. Then you get good at being alone.

You're like, and I don't think if I would have done that, if I didn't do that, I would never have ended up with Danny.

Let's talk about Danny. Yeah.

Because Danny, he's just such a good man. And I'm not so sure I was attracted to the good man. I mean, I was attracted to good men, but the uncomplicated, I like a feisty wild type. And whereas Danny has that in him, his values are very sturdy, and he's such a lovely person. And I would have never, I think, allowed that in if I didn't take those three years of just being so happy in my life alone.

But I think that's a great thing for all the women listening to think about. It's like, when you're single, you get anxious of like, okay, I need to find who's my next person. Like, oh, my gosh, my clock, what am I going to do? And it's like, if you just chill half the time, when you get to the end, you're like, oh, I don't need anyone. They got to be fucking great if I find someone.

There's this It's really funny. I, of course, get fed all these Aries memes. And there's this one where they're like, I'm an Aries. Of course, I did it. And there was one person that goes, I was like, I'm an Aries. Of course, I love to be in relationships. And then he's like, You like me back? And just runs in the other direction. I think there's a little bit of the Aries thing, which is we like newness. Yeah. Venture, like excitement. So the good man, solid relationship is Aries, I think, a little bit in our head, a little bit like, Is there going to be something that's going to keep this interesting, or is this the rest of my life? And I think a lot of fire signs would relate to this. So for me, those three years was like, Oh, I'm actually really love I loved being without... Because I was so happy alone, that excitement thing was like, I don't... That's actually not really what's going to- You don't need it.

You're like, I'm exciting. I excite myself.

That's right. It's like, I can create my own newness.

You and Danny had known each other for 15 years before you guys Got together?

I met Danny when I was 23, pregnant with Ryder, and Danny was in high school.

Who made the first move?

Danny. Yeah. He was very slow. Slow burn. So slow. I was like, I was like, this is weird. Is this a thing or is this not a thing? He's really cute. He's really great. That's so cute. I know. He's the best. Honestly, I'm just It's like, I'm so happy.

Good for you because I think it's incredible when you find... I love when you find people in your life that you... I can tell you're glowing when you talk about him.

I could just... I really believe that there's a lot of different people in your life that you could have, right? It's like the options are endless. When people are like, I can't find anybody. I'm like, you're not looking in the right places. There's somebody for Everybody. You have to just be open to it, and you have to let the expectation go. He's not going to look the way you want him to look, and he might not... All this, this is my vision board. Be comfortable if the person on your vision board is the opposite of who the guy you ended up falling in love with is. Because I really believe that part of what stops us from experiencing great love is that we are shrinking Taking the idea down to something really small, so we're not open to- You may be with someone that's right in front of you, but you're like, But that's not what I wanted.

And you're like, But if it's right, it's right. Don't run away just because it's not your vision board, bitch. Throw out Pinterest.

That's right. It's good to have vision boards. I like it. But be open to something totally different.

What does independence look like for you in a relationship?

Great question. This question is so important. I think it's so hard because communication. I think in order to truly have independence, you have to be good communicators. Because everyone's idea of their needs are so different, and I am very independent. The other thing about Danny, he just lets me- Be you. Be me. And it's like, I could be like, I really want to go out with my girlfriends tonight, and I really want to be with you. He'd be like, Go, babe, go. And I could be out till four in the morning, end up on some thing, and come back and be like, Oh, my God, I had the craziest night. I did it. And he's just totally okay with it in a good way. He loves when I'm happy. If it's the other way around, I'm like, not totally. Why were you Hold on a second. What were you up to?

Four in the morning? What could you have been doing? Whose car did you end up in?

No, literally saying. No, but I really... But independence is what works for you. What might work for me doesn't work for him. So in order for me to feel independent, I think you have to communicate what that is. My thing is, I just want to be told. Cold. Just tell me where you are. Tell me what you need, and then I'm good. I have a hard time with not knowing. Right. Some people are fine with not knowing. They're much more comfortable with that, secure with it. My thing is, if you tell me that you're going to call me at 11, but you call me at 2, that's going to not create independence for either of us.

No, I think it's a great point.

I I could talk about this shit all day long. I love it.

I could talk to you forever because I love having insightful conversations where we don't have the same background. So I'm interested to hear, what is your take on this?

I'm also a full disclaimer. I should just wear I don't know what I'm talking about. Me either, but it's fine. For me, I'm also like, I'm saying this, but I also am very happy to be wrong about all of it.

No, but women should run the world. Okay. This album, I think it's incredible because, like I said, you have an incredible voice, but the songwriting is phenomenal. And knowing that you said you have hundreds of songs just like- So many songs. In your house, how did you decide what you were going to put into this album?

We just started fresh. There was no... I mean, there's two songs on there that I wrote before I started writing with Linda. And then after we got out of the studio writing with Linda Perry, who's a writer on a lot of it. We went back, Dan and I went back, and we restructured two other songs that I had written before. But it's all of that time.

Well, that's why I'm listening to the push and pull and moving on. There's a lot. That's why I wanted to talk to you about you, and I think that's when people connect the most with lyrics, when they get to know someone more. And I'm telling you, my fans fucking love music. So they're going to be like, okay, now that we know Kate more, the lyrics will- Honestly, it's It's like, because I waited so long to put something out, it was really important that it was reflective.

So that there was, for me, that it was where I'm at now, but that there's the story of a life well loved. And whether that be with my son or whether it be in past relationships that didn't work out or where I'm at now in with my Romeo, which is... And that's just Danny and I wrote that together. But the freedom in that song. And I have always been a hopeless romantic. And I'm going to take the word hopeless out of it because I actually feel that I'm a hopeful romantic. And the hardest songs for me to write are the hopeful ones. And that was so important for me in this because my brain loves a depressing song. If you go into my vault of music, it's just there's so much depressing shit in there. It's crazy. And it will come out at some point. Okay, good. I really like-We need a good cry, Katie. I have to.

We need a good cry.

But for me with this, I wanted it to feel like what the album title is. To Love Fully is a glorious experience, and it comes to you in so many different ways. And we're talking about, if you're open to it, then I think you're living a really well loved life, as long as you're a good person, you're treating people respectfully and you're honest.

No, I can't thank you enough for coming on. I had such a fabulous time getting to know you, and I'm so excited that I got to sit with you for long to talk about all the girl things, but talk about the music because it is intertwined. You said this album is about love and the experiences that you've had. And I think it's inspiring, honestly. I think some people feel constrained to, that was the one love of my life. You can have so many loves of your lives, and you can have so many loves, and you can love people in different ways, and you shouldn't look back at your past in negative way. Every chapter is a new chapter and just lean in and have a good time. Yeah.

And going to find out is about not wanting a relationship. It's about being in that for three years. That's a song about when you just want to... When you don't... That little spark that you have with someone where you're just like, Is this going to go down?

Okay, last question, then I know you have to go. What is your favorite song?

I have to go make out with a guy. I have one scene to do today. Stop. I'm making out with a total stranger. What? I've been really stressing about this. Oh, my God.

And you're coughing.

I have COVID. No, fuck. I'm not telling him.

Wait, you have to make out?

Like, full make out time? I have to make out with this random guy.

How long?

You will see it on Netflix at some point. Stop. Yeah. I don't know, but I've been having anxiety over it. How do you get mentally prepared for that? I don't know. What I do is I'm channeling Emma Stone in-Poor things.

Poor things.

Poor things.

You're I'm feeling MSF. It's crazy. Poor things.

If she could do that-You can do this. I can do this. Come on. You know what I mean? I can make out with some random guy.

Easy.

Yeah.

Well, thank you so much for coming on. This was truly so fun. You're fabulous. This was so fun. Thank you.