What is up, Daddy Gang? It is your founding father, Alex Cooper with Call Her Daddy.

Okay, here we are.

Here we are. Katie Perry, welcome to Call Her Daddy.

Thank you.

I am so happy we're doing this.

My first question for you- Oh my God.

She's already turned tables. No.

Is how edible are these? Are they a prop?

They are edible. They are. They are edible.

Do you refill them?

We We do refill them, but I don't know the last time that I've refilled them. But I eat from them, and I eat the blue, mostly. What is your favorite Sour Patch color?

Blue and red.

Blue and red. I'm a blue and freak. I'm a green girl.

You know how crazy it is? I saw a meme of It was like a mom hand that had only red and pink. And she's like, I have these so my kids can have these. And it was just orange and yellow. That's what I would do. And whatever color is left. And I was like, That's it.

That's it. You're sitting, you're I love this. Here's little green, you little stinker. What is your star sign? Scorpio, five times.

So all of my risings, moons, all that.

What does that mean? Can you give us the Scorpio rundown?

Well, I'm a cusp, Scorpio with Libra. So Libra, to me, and this is my paraphrasing, there's a lot of other people that are much better at this than I'm going to even give you right now. Libras are the arts, liberation, and so I feel very connected to that. They're also very good with reason and organization. And Scorpios are really intuitive. That's like our secret power is intuition. And being five Scorpios in one, it's like when I walk into a room. That's why it was like we were talking before this and I was looking at... I was just getting all these context clues. All that is information for me. Interesting. To know what person, how far I can go? Am I safe? Are they good? Are they here with me? All that. So Scorpios are very intuitive.

And for context, everyone watching, Katie walked in. We went through a whole tour of the house. She's walking We got upstairs. She's like, actually, let's go in the backyard. We did a whole walkthrough, and no one's ever done that with me. And I actually appreciate it because you're showing that you care and you're interested and you want to know what's up.

You're also building a business. And so I like to see how you build. I like to see your entrepreneurship. I like to see what your next steps are. I'm invested, especially in an alpha female, a female that is self-sufficient, that's taking the lead. I resonate with all of that.

Coming from you, I just have to say thank you because I have literally been the biggest fan for forever. Everything that you've built, no one can say anything other than you're an icon. So thank you for taking the time out of your busy life to come here.

You're one of my... Thank you. And you're one of my only interviews because I feel like you get it. You get it. You speak to the people in a way that they want to hear. You're super relevant and your real authenticity is really important to me. I grew up in a non-authentic childhood, and so I was always looking for who's the most authentic in the room? Who's going to cut all the small talking? Like, look me deep in the eyes and go straight for it. Should we acknowledge my dog that's here? I don't know if we should. It's a real dog. Oh, my God. This is Nugget. Nugget. All of my fans know her, but if you don't know her, her name is Nugget, and she's almost 10 years old. She is a permanent puppy. She's a micro teacup. So you see a lot of teacup poodle. She is 10 years old, and she's She's a great dog. I was more of a cat person, and I think I'm actually going to get a cat again very soon. I feel it in my soul.

How many cats have you had in your life? Two. What are the names? Kitty Purry. Katie Purry? Wait, that didn't hit until it hit.

It hit. Okay. And then the other one was Crusty.

Crusty? What inspired that?

It was a combination of my ex-husband and I's name. Love Crusty. Rusty. Katie Crusty. Okay. I don't know. Yeah. R-i-p. Katie Purry. But she is like a cat dog in that she travels with me everywhere, and she's always on my lap.

She looks like she's about to fall asleep. Do you think she will fall asleep during this interview?

I don't know. I mean, she's a good girl.

I think that my dogs would go on.

But her breath is literally like... Disgusting. It's like the inside of it, an asshole. It is so... I mean, not that I know exactly. But maybe. But we all know what butt smells like because we all have one. We do. And I have a child, so I really know another way, right? I've changed a lot of diapers, and this is the inside of her mouth. It's like a mouth only a mother could love.

So it's real love. You're like, I really love Nugget.

Yeah, she needs another little dental operation. She'll get there. I don't want to put her under too many times. She's so small.

We're happy that you brought her because it's giving me... I love dogs. I have two dogs myself. They're Golden Doodle. I feel like they'd get along with Nugget. So thank you for bringing Nugget today. I want to go through of your iconic moments because specifically with music videos, you are the queen of going all out for these things. I'm curious. I feel like this is the hardest question to ask, but if you had to pick one of your favorite music videos that you've ever made, tell me, or you can do top three.

Okay. I mean, I loved walking onto the set for California Girls. It felt like I was at my own bespoke Disneyland because I had an artist and the director who was great as well. But the artist who looked over the whole thing that made my teenage dream cover, Wil Cotton, he made these props and sets come to life in a way that I don't even know. Does it even exist like that? That was a different time, of course. So I loved that one. I loved ET, of course. I do a lot of flying and attempting acrobatics sometimes. I have another video coming out where I'm doing a lot of wirework. Okay. Very soon. Oh, Katie. Yes, that's really fun. But yeah, I like world building. I am a big fan of Disney, and a huge fan of Walt Disney and the worlds that he created. I love this a little escapism. And I think I love it because early on, I was trying to create a different reality than what I was born into. And just my imagination would just build these worlds. Like Minecraft, I was just building my own worlds all the time.

And I think that it's fun to have that release. And when people come to a concert, especially my concerts, it's sensory. Great overload.

No, I was going to say, I think that's very relatable for anyone that's in the creative business. I feel like a lot of us started because we were imagining things that didn't have to do with the immediate of what was going on in our lives. And so you can really run with And I think it's been really fun to watch throughout your career. You've maintained a pretty consistent theme, even though everything changes and looks slightly different, obviously. You're always pushing the creative boundary. So you're the type of person, because we're going to get to, I'm not ignoring everything that you're saying about your upbringing, because I want to get there. But you- Oh, I'm good. No, you're like, actually?

I'm feeling really good. I've made so much peace, so much forgiveness, so much wholeness. I'm super happy.

But are you... So you're the person that's like, I want to try to get on wire and do the wire work and do the flips and all these things? Or is someone being like, Are you down today, Katie?

Oh, no, I'm in. I'm doing all the stunts. And sometimes you're like, you're not allowed to do that. I'm like, I'm fine. You're fine. Let me do it. I don't like to overthink. I'm just like, yes, and we can do this. I have a great team I've had from day one. They are such a wonderful sounding board. And it's been imperative to the success of my career because they are not afraid to say no. And or you need to take a beat, and also, fuck this noise. Let's go.

I was going to say, I feel like that's huge for people in your position to have the right people around you.

That's where the five Scorpios come in. Right. There you go.

I will...

No, I'm doing this. I'm like, constantly. Are you here for all the right reasons?

I'm interested to get into romantic later to hear how that plays into decision making moments. I'm going to test you.

I'm going to test you. I'm going to test you. Do you really love me? Do you really love me? Oh, really? Well, how about this?

Did you always from day one of being a young girl, want to be a famous singer? Was that the goal?

I mean, Fame never came into my mind. I think it's a byproduct of everything that everyone's successful at. I just wanted to be scene, period. End of story. And I found my magic trick when I was nine. And I started... That was my thing. I started singing, and then the room would freeze. And so I was like, oh, this is interesting. And then I I enjoyed it. And it just soothed me. It healed me. My mother called me Bird from a very young age because I would sing myself to sleep when I was little. Then I picked up a guitar at 13. I started singing at church at nine. Started writing my own songs at 13. I made a gospel record when I was 16. And so I always wanted to be on the stage. My father was a minister, and he was on some stage, so I always watched that. I had a little bit of an example of that. Got my big break at 23, But before 23, I was in LA at 17. I was broke. I didn't have a pot to piss in or a window to throw it out. So what my Southern father would say.

But I was hustling, and I was always saying, yes, I can. I'll be there. I'll fill in. Tap me in, coach. It was a struggle bus. I had two cars repossessed. I was signed and dropped by three different labels. People only know me maybe because of teenage dream and the whirlwind and success of that and the accolades. Blah, blah, blah. But I remember very specifically being 19 in my black Jetta that I got with my small allowance that I got when I had first done a first signing, trying to meet friends at the Chateau Marmont. Classic. Yeah. But parking in some illegal spot somewhere in the neighborhood because I couldn't pay the $20. Going there, and there's a big, fabulous party. And it's 14 people at a long table. And I sit down, I have a glass of water, a side salad. That's it. And then at the very end, everybody's like, Let's just split the bell. And I'm like, My debit card is shaking. I am that meme. And so I go into the... I literally go into the bathroom and I just start crying. I just like, I don't know. And someone ends up taking care of me.

But that was every day from 17 to 23 couch surfing, just being Just being like, it works, yes. Go onward. It doesn't work? No, onward.

But that feels like from what I've read about you is like that feels like a theme in your life, because prior to being 17, if you go back to your childhood, you've talked about having been on food stamps as a kid.

Yeah, my family had that time. I mean, we were only by the grace of what the church could offer us, which fluctuated all the time. That was our livelihood. And it wasn't very much.

Can you describe your personality as a kid?

I was black sheep. I came out of the womb going, tell me why.

Why do you think that is?

I'm curious. I'm super curious. And that has been my education. My whole life is my curiosity. And that curiosity has just continued to unravel the layers of life. And I know myself so much more because of my curiosity. And so I just was like, nothing was so black and white for me. It was infinite. I was like, there's so much more out there.

How would you describe your household growing up?

My household was a little volatile. There was a lot of stressors, money being the biggest one, the biggest one, I think. And having three kids. I mean, look, I have a child. And you want to go? Okay. I love you. Go ahead, sweetie. Good job, Nugget. Don't take Oh, you want to go up there? Hi, sweetie. Okay, you can come up.

I'm not going to lie, I'm feeling a little confident right now. To anyone that's listening and not watching- You're like the dog whisper, you're the animal whisper. Katie's dog has departured off of her chair, and I now have... She's leaving. Goodbye. I love you. Okay, that was an honor. Bye-bye. So you were saying it was a little volatile.

It was a little volatile. Okay. So I have a child. Yeah. And after having my child, I always respected my mother. But the level of respect for my mother, my parents in general, it just went through the roof. Because I was like, how did you keep us alive without iPads? You told us to look out the window? What were you thinking? I do think my parents, with the tools that they had and their own upbringing, really did the best that they could. And my mother where she is a saint. She sacrificed every step of the way. She was the last to sit at the dinner table every single time. Some of my alpha-ing, which is now a lot more imbalance, is maybe a reaction to all of that. Like, oh, we didn't grow up with money. I'm going to make it. Let's go. Because I'm never going to be in this position. I don't want to feel this feeling again. But I'm aware of that now, right?

Interesting.

I chose someone like Orlando because there is a lot more equal energy there. And he wasn't intimidated by the power. And yeah, he wasn't- Intimidated.

No, I have so many questions. When we get to out of dating a man, that is intimidated by a woman's success is such an interesting dynamic. To close out that, your parents practice a very strict version of Christianity, right? How did that impact your day to day life growing up?

I went to church on Sunday morning, on Sunday night, on Wednesdays. Have I ever been trick or treating? I think I've been trick or treating once. I wasn't allowed to trick or treat. Why? It's a pagan holiday, and the devil's holiday or whatever We had a prayer meeting instead. We didn't even acknowledge it. I wasn't allowed to eat lucky Charms because luck is derivative from Lucifer. My mom was and still is really good at finding the positive in everything. And I do that.

But I think that's the gorgeous part of growing up, right? Is taking what your parents give you. And we get to be like, no to this, yes to this, no to this. And then you make your own reality.

They gave me my compass in a lot of ways. They really gave me a lot of integrity. They taught me how to treat people.

Did you ever go through a rebellious phase?

I'm still in it, baby.

The nipple rings?

No, I'm not rebelling. I'm just being myself. I'm finding, I'm playing.

How was sex and relationships described you growing up? I'm assuming it wasn't too sex positive in the house. No, no, no, no. Katie, get after it, girl.

No, no, get after it. No, I wasn't really allowed to even acknowledge the opposite sex. There wasn't a lot of talking about it, and that's okay. I mean, they did what they knew how to do, right? I didn't even know how to use a tampon until I was in high school. I didn't even know how they existed. I was like, do I have eight holes? In sex Ed, they teach you now at school. But I didn't have that upbringing. I didn't have that education. I was homeschooled, went to the Christian schools, and they didn't really teach that. So I was like, what is this? So I'm on swim team still wearing a fucking pad. The girls are like, girl, that's why you're last. You have a flotation device. Let me show you how to do this. I was like, oh, well, this works. No. I had no other way. I didn't know, but it was the girlies that helped me out.

I was going to say, I want to make every woman feel so seen, especially because you're making them feel seen of like, there are so many women that grow up and are completely detached from the belly button down because they're like, I don't know what I'm supposed to do down there.

You never even took a mirror down there. Never. I mean, even to this day, guys are like, You got to take the tampon out to pee. We're like, no, you cannot be President. No, you just need to go back to biology class.

Why I wanted to just establish all this to anyone who didn't know. And I knew you came from a religious background, but then one of your first giant hits is I Kissed a Girl, which is a complete departure from what we're talking about. How did this song come to be? Because I can imagine, what did your family think? Tell me everything.

My sister told them that it was coming out. I was like, you got to deliver the message. I moved to LA when I was 17, and it was just a whole different perspective boom. I met different people. I'm like, oh, you're not a bad person. I grew up thinking you were this way. I was taught this way. Oh, you're not. So I saw more humanity. And then even traveling around the world, once I had my success, I was like, well, these cultures believe in this, and this is how they work. And all this education and all this oneness, I feel from really observing people and getting to know them. That was my education. At 17, and that's when really my sexuality started and experimenting and not having as many rules and restrictions. I had those experiences, and then I sang about them. And I was like, oh.

So your sister told your parents?

Yes. No. Yeah.

You had everything recorded. They had no idea this is coming out.

Well, I was 23 at that point. So I was a young adult. But it was tough. It was tough for them. When any child takes a departure, when any child doesn't become the doctor, lawyer, it's tough. I'm going to have my tough moments, too, I'm sure. Even now, my daughter sings a song, Peacock, dancing around the house that I wrote as a double entendre funny song about dicks. And I'm like, Don't sing that song. And then, actually, there's been so many people that have sang that song, and so many young people that have sang that song. And so I want to come on Call Her Daddy right now to say, I'm sorry, and thank you, and we'll get through this together. And my karma has now served me.

I was going to say, you're staring at Karma and your little baby girl, and you're like, oh, my God, she's doing it.

She's doing what I created. I bought her a ballerina Peacock outfit from the London Zoo, and someone In the House, put that on because she loves to listen to Roar and Firework, and they're like, Oh, you should hear this song, Peacock. And then it's never been the same. And I've never been the same.

You're like, You know what? I deserve this. Moving forward.

I do deserve this. No, that's adorable. Anyways, so Yeah. I mean, sexuality really started for me when I was 17.

How would you describe your life changing when things really started to blow up?

It was a rocket. It was a real rocket. And it was like, can you hold on? And I wasn't present for some of it. It was really I have to be present for some of it. I was like, oh. Every day was a different city. And I'm really just grateful as I sit here at 39, that I'm alive, that I have tools, that I'm grateful. It's the first thing out of my mouth every single day is a gratitude prayer. It's the first thing. It's my very first thought. It's the first thing that I say. I'm grateful I have a home life, which is a sanctuary, which is an anchor. While I was having all these number ones, my personal life was in shambles. And so that was totally out of balance. And then it shifted along the way. Now it's been doing this, but that's okay because actually my core is intact. My foundation is intact. My joy is no longer at the mercy of anyone or outside of myself. My joy is within me. But it's been a long journey, and there is no there, there. I invest a lot of time and resources into therapy, retreats, evolution, even medicine journeys, all that stuff.

I just want to evolve. I want to not come back to this prison planet Your second album, you had five number one singles, and at that point, no one had done that other than Michael Jackson.

So oh, my God, you are now the biggest star in the world. What type of pressure?

I had no idea, by the way. What? I had no idea. And I also asked my managers, I'm like, is this normal? Does this happen to other people? Because I was like, is this... Especially as they kept on going, I was like, is this like, what is this? What is happening? What is happening? Because I was on tour, too. I remember asking that question. I'm like, Is this normal for an artist? And they just started laughing at me because obviously they're managers that have managed so many people. They're like, this is not normal. And I was just like, well, okay. I never even really celebrated being... I didn't even know how to take it in. I never knew how to take in compliments, none of it. And I was just like, you don't really like me because I had this imposter syndrome.

We see it every few months. Someone rises and it's like, oh, my God, they're the most famous. They're the biggest ever. And what I feel like, I've literally had so many people sit in that chair and tell me, I was barely able to comprehend what was happening. I was just trying to keep my head above water because then everyone starts looking at you. It's a very unnatural thing. And the talent that you had love, is now there are so many more things that come with the talent of the eyes, and the pictures, and the tabloids, and the gossip. Did you ever put so much pressure on yourself when you were having that level of success? Another one, another one, or were you more lenient on yourself? No.

I knew the feeling of What a good pop song made me feel. I still know that feeling, and whether people resonate with that or not, I still have it. When the goosebumps hit, when the tits get hard, I'm like, these are visceral physical reactions to this magic frequency feeling, right? And so no, I was never chasing anything. I'm just all about creating. I'm a creator. It's worked at times. It hasn't worked at times. It's It's been an amazing journey, and it's really a journey for me to evolve. Everybody else is on this, like watching, but it's really just about, this is my life, and this is my game, and this is how I'm living it. And some people are learning it. And some people take these songs that I write mostly out of... When I wrote Firework and Roar, I wasn't feeling that way. I was actually feeling the complete opposite. And I was like, what is going to pull me out of this depressed state? What is going to pull me out of this sadness? I'm going to write a song that's hopefully going to encourage me. And then it encourages... So many. Yeah, like a generation.

And it becomes this ripple effect. I mean, the fame has always just been a byproduct. And I see a lot of people going through it now. And I reach out to a lot of those young ladies. And I'm like, yo, there's not a lot I have people that have been through this. So if you ever want to have a very discrete tea indoors, let's do it. Let's talk. Let's vent. I know what they're going through. It's a different landscape now. So I don't want to assume that I know everything.

But I think the feelings are probably very similar. The loneliness, so many people staring at you, you being expected to hold yourself to a certain standard that no one is even teaching you. You just have to figure it out. Yeah.

There's no rule book. There's no playbook, really.

Because no one you're talking to is going to give you the advice that has been through it.

I didn't really have examples growing up, and nor did I have an education. So I've just been like, all right, let's learn. Let's fail. And I fail in public. I make mistakes in public. And I'm like, okay, well, I made a mistake. Let's keep... Let's go. I mean, that's the tough thing is sometimes this thing doesn't allow you to learn. And the process of learning anything is by trying and not aceing it.

Yeah. But it's interesting, Katie, when you're talking about that, because you're a human being and you're this mega pop star. And so you've referenced it a couple of times, and I want to go there, of your 20s. While you're on this insane rise to Fame, you're also trying to figure out your personal life. Can you just lightly talk to me about you in your romantic life in your 20s? What was going on in your life then? You in your romantic life in your 20s, what was going on in your life then?

Well, I've always been monogamous, and I've always looked for a partnership and for someone to witness me. I even called a record witness because of that feeling. So I wasn't doing very many one night stand type things, and I didn't do a lot of dating. And I met people in my industry. But I was always looking for long term monogamy. That's what I related to. And long distance really worked for me.

What do you think you were like as a partner? In a relationship in your 20s? Oh, when, though.

What time of life? In your early 20s. In In my early 20s?

What were you like as a partner?

I was really... I was wild. But I was on a crazy wild ride that probably made me very moody. I mean, I was also zipping all over the world for a day here, a day there. And my circadian rhythm was completely upside down. So there was a lot of other factors to bring into the equation of me being whatever hot, fiery personality as well.

Did you have a type? Do you have a type?

I really value presence. I value loyalty. I value adventure. So Orlando and I are super adventurous. We just literally jumped out of a helicopter together into the water. I mean, he's way, way more adventurous. I mean, he has no fear threshold. I'm like, I'm good. My karma is good. I don't need to press my luck. I value I value humor. I value light-heartedness. I value problem solving. I value playfulness. To be playful- Is so important. Is so important. Imagination and playfulness, that is to me intelligence. That is to me the currency that I look for. I value strength, but not just... There's a lot of people that can be powerful and strong in the world, but crumble personally behind mind in their private lives. And they could be man-children. They could be stunted at 12.

They could be man-children, Katie. I've dated a man, many men.

And some of those guys have a lot of outward success. They're financially fun, but then you're like... That's the thing. It's about balance. And that's the thing for me is I didn't have that balance either. I was like, oh, my God, number one, number one. And then also So going through a divorce and not knowing which way was up, really.

When you look back at previous relationships, what are some red flags that you now know as the Katie Perry sitting here are like, oh, I may Maybe avoided those or I maybe ignored those. But now I look and I'm like, I've never put up with that now.

Anyone that is constantly changing the goalpost or pulling the rug out from you emotionally, not it. They just don't have their stuff. They don't have it figured So how can they be a team player with you? Anyone that says that they know you better than you know yourself?

So rough.

You're like, whoa. Okay, I've lived in this body from day one. We've been dating for a couple of years. You know what I'm saying? Or whatever. Anyone that won't show up for you. I was in a relationship at one point where they never came to anything that I did. I was on a big tour. They never came to one show. Not one. And it was like, really? They just won't show up for I don't know what reason that was. They just couldn't handle me in boss mode of sorts, quite possibly. And yeah, those are some red flags. And then also someone that won't just help, help around the house, share the load or help the load be lighter. The load can be so heavy for women. And there's so many invisible things that we do. And it's literally about sharing that load. Just like, Orlando and I, we do a lot of couples therapy, and we want to evolve. That's I think why we're in our relationship is to become better humans so that we can raise this beautiful human being. One of my love languages is acts of service. So it's like, if I come downstairs and the The kitchen is clean and you've done it all, and you've done all the dishes, and you've closed all the pantry doors.

You better be ready to get your dick sucked. I mean, literally, that is my love language. I don't need a red Ferrari. I can buy a red Ferrari. Just do the fucking dishes. I will suck your dick. It's not easy. Sorry. Don't you know? It's facts. It's facts. And even when we went on a couple's retreat, they're like, Which guy has more sex. The guy that drives the Ferrari, the red Ferrari, or the guy that helps out with his wife every night in the kitchen? In the kitchen. In the kitchen. Was the answer. In the kitchen. And Orlando knows all that, and he hears me, and he meets me there now.

He does the dishes. Ladies.

I mean, well, we are fortunate to have a housekeeper, but on the weekends, he knows that that's important. It means...

Okay, there's so many things to say.

Also, if you can afford to get an electric toilet, get a fucking electric toilet.

Get a Roomba thing that just goes around the home. Yeah, get a Roomba.

Get a Roomba. All of a sudden, you have- Choose your battles. Choose your battles.

Men listening, get a Roomba. You're going to have so much more sex. So much more sex. The Roomba, stock price goes up.

When the toilet seat goes down by itself. So much more sex. So much more sex. It only turns on you when you have a hangover and you're throwing up and the toilet seat just goes down. It keeps going down. Katie. It's so dark. You're like, I'm so successful. Bunk.

I'm not done. I'm not done throwing up.

Bunk.

Okay. Rewinding for a second, because I think it's so important what you just said for women listening, is the feeling of... I have had someone say that to me before. I know you better than you know yourself. That is a full manipulation tactic to make you question every fucking thing you're doing. So if anyone is hearing that in their life right now, that is a red flag. We're here to tell you- That's a red flag.

And typically, they'll follow up with, If you leave me, you're going to have a really hard time, or your life is going to change, or it's going to be shit.

And you question yourself.

You're like, what? Do they? I was fine before I met you. Yeah.

Kind of.

There have been some relationships that have really helped me. Orlando, for one, I was going through a really tough time in 2018, and he was not shook. And I showed him the worst of me. I was like, here's the next test. I'm going to show you the craziest This bitch you've ever seen. And he's like, I ain't shook. And I'm like, You're my baby daddy. I was like, If you're not shook by this, then we're going the distance.

Let's have a kid. No, we're going to get to Orlando because it's from... I feel like I'm talking to a lot of my friends recently who are in these positions where it's like, is this person the one or is it time to move on? And that is so scary because you build lives with someone, right?

I think relationships are just about growing. And if you're You're not growing, both of you. If you've stopped growing with a person or you've graduated, it's time to go. It's time to go. If that person doesn't want to grow, it's time to go. I don't know about ones. I think it's just about, are you on a journey? Do you want to evolve together? In previous relationships, some people didn't want to do any of the work together. And it's like, we're really just here to sharpen each other. Yes, we are each other's mirrors, and we see both the best and the worst, because in your partnerships, they see the absolute It's the worst version of you. So it's then their responsibility to help show you that in a loving way that you don't need to operate out of that.

It's so true. And yes, it's so hard to get out of things that aren't right for you anymore. But we all watch our friends.

Especially if you're partners on YouTube, or if you've got a platform together, you've got all this invested business together.

If you have an apartment together, you have furniture together. You have whatever you have. All of it. And then you're like, how do get rid of this. Or if you have a child together, that's the next step.

There's a lot of people that have had children. They're like, well, I'm going to stay in this for 15 years.

I know it's complicated, but it is you talking about your experience is so helpful because it's like, life goes on. And it actually is better to be happy than to stay in something that you're not happy in, but trying to make it all work.

Well, happiness is relative because it's not about happiness. It's about evolution, because life is hard. Life is not peach a keen jelly bean. People get sick. People have accidents. Life sucks sometimes. It's about what you make of those moments. It's like, how do you find the opportunities of growth? How do you find the positive? It's not just happiness. It's not just dopamine. It's equanimity. It's finding the light in the darkness.

You're so right. It's finding that person that you want to go through those really hard times with. That's when you know a relationship is going to stand the test of time for however long you want it to last.

If they're not shook, if they don't leave.

I want to ask you another question that you mentioned about being a boss and being so successful and how intimidating that can be to partners. And I'm sure, like you just mentioned, you've been in relationships where, and I've been in it, where I've dated guys that I'm like, oh, my God, you're so intimidated by my success.

And they don't even know how to verbalize it.

And for a minute, if you're not in the best place, I've been there where I, for a moment, was like, oh, should I dim myself more? Should I maybe not- I've been there.

I have dimmed. Right?

I have dimmed. You dim because you're like, you can't see it immediately.

You also want to play the game, play a role.

Not be too much. So you're like, Okay, maybe I should take off this day so he feels- And now I'm taking up space, bitch.

I'm taking up space.

And it's like, you can't win. In with those people. And I feel like it's hard with the- There's one girl listening, and she's like, They're talking to me.

I have to go. They're talking to me. I have to get out of this.

But that's what's so crazy about this show is I legit Katie, have people after this will DM me being like, You guys were talking to me. If you are with a partner that is so intimidated by your success, and you keep making yourself smaller, you're not with the right partner.

Have you ever heard of someone say, your partner should be saying, I'm so proud of you, babe. Can I do anything to help you? I'm so proud of you. Even if it sounds like, even if they're saying it, they're clocking in sometimes, they're like, because you know this is my love language, vocalizing. It's like, thanks for saying it.

I appreciate it. And not making it feel like, oh, my God, I have to quickly finish because he's going to be mad.

Or I have to hide my success, or I can't celebrate. I've been in relationships where I've had number ones, where I've been... Or won things or got into big parts of my life or made my first million dollars, or whatever, where I'm like, do I tell them? Do I not tell them? Do I just slightly... You know what I'm saying? It's crazy.

Yeah, it's- And what's crazy is you're sitting here, everyone in the world is like, you're so successful. You You financially, career-wise, with your life, they must... So many people I bet are like, you had to dim your success for a man. It literally comes up in print. Everyone. Everyone.

It's a human experience. Nobody I mean, I also remember I wasn't born into any of this. This is all a product of my talent and my hard work and my hustle. So not that people that were born into something don't have that, because they do, because they actually have a bigger crust bear, and they have to fight in a different way. I think everybody has to play this human game, whether they like it or not.

In security and going through the waves of a career. You referenced earlier, Witness. And in 2017, you released Witness, the album, and it didn't chart as high as your other ones. And I think this is also going to be helpful to other women listening of, in moments where you are competing with yourself and comparing yourself to what you've done in the past, first, oh, my gosh, it didn't do as well, how did that affect you and your self-worth in your career? Where was your head out during that time?

It was just universe's way of saying Oh, you preach a really strong message of self-love? Let's see, baby. So I was like, oh, okay, here's the real lesson. Let's see. And it's interesting. I heard when ships big, these big ships out in the ocean, they go off one degree off chart. They land on a different continent. And yes, at that time, things were changing by small degrees. And I felt like I was on a different continent because I had only experienced... Before success, it was like, Am I enough? I'm going to show you proof, proof, proof. I was right. I was fucking right. Let's go. And then it shifts and it changes, and it settles for everyone. There's maybe a couple it doesn't, but it settles. It does. And hold on tight, because life is all about peaks and valleys. The valleys are where you sow the seeds. The peaks are where you enjoy the views and the fruits. But you wouldn't even know. The light cannot exist without the darkness. I had a really big shift. I had cut my hair because I didn't want to do this cute cutesy, pin-up girl thing that I had done previously.

I wanted to really experiment with different sounds. I just wanted to go into a different zone as an artist, which I am first and foremost. And so I was like, well, how I'm going to do I do that? Well, I'm going to change the look. I'm going to cut everything. I'm going to go. People that were used to being fed a certain thing, they got fed a different thing. And they're like, oh, that's different. I like it. When I go to a restaurant, And I like my favorite dish, don't change any ingredient.

Keep it right on the menu. I want this thing every time. Every time. But you're also a human being. And then you have to talk to me about how you are a creative. So it's like, would I do want to lightly try something different? And then people are like, uh-uh.

You're Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

But how do you deal with that?

Well, it's my life, and I'm going to live it now. I'm almost 40, and this is my life. I've realized I'm going to live it.

I appreciate you talking also I'm talking about you talking about how you came from your childhood fighting. You got to where you are. You went through what is so normal and natural in your 20s, figuring out your romantic relationships, figuring out your partners, Half of the reason we choose certain partners is because of what we're dealing with on the inside with our own selves.

We're trying to resolve that. Yes. That's why we're attracted to that. Yes. And then you find- You're no longer attracted to narcissists.

No, you're like, I'm actually not into the narcissist, Alex, anymore. Not really. You find Orlando. What initially drew you to him?

His adventure spirit. He's got a free spirit. He's super healthy, and he wants me to be healthy. Sometimes that can be annoying, but it's all for the good. He shows up. He is loyal. He's a Capricorn. He's not scared. I don't know if this Capricorn trait is for everyone, but what I've noticed and what he resonates with is that he can get his hands dirty. He He loves the elements. He's spontaneous, and he checks a lot of boxes. And not one person is going to check all the boxes. You know what I'm saying?

Was it an initial spark or was it a slow burn?

It's been different layers. The more we do the work, the more we find the next level. And sometimes we get stuck and we're like, okay, well, let's go into do the work, and this is going to be annoying. And I don't want to do it. And we don't have the time. And I'm tired. But we're going to do it. But we're going to do it. And then we find the next level. And that's why we're continuing in the relationship.

I know you guys broke up for almost a year at one point. What led to that decision?

It was really interesting. I mean, we met over an In-N-Out burger, mostly, at the Golden Globes. He stole one-off of my table, and I was like, Excuse me. And then his hand went and grabbed one. I was like, Okay, you can have one. You can have one.

Orlando Bloom. Hello. Hey.

And we had met before then, but it really locked then. I actually had like, I'd done a little spell before I went that night. I had like, I had wore pink rose quartz. I had written down the things I was looking for in a partner under a full moon, burn it up, let it go into the ash, spread it everywhere, cleanse my crystals. And it came. But it wasn't about Orlando. And And we manifested it. And then what was the question?

How did you guys decide to break up?

So what happened was we weren't really in it from day one. I mean, he was in a way because he had just done a huge time of celibacy, and he had set intentions. And I was fresh out of a relationship, and I was just like, I can't do this anymore. I need to go into a swim in a different pond. But I had to do a lot of some real work. He went to this place called the Hoffman Process, which is a place, a retreat you go to for a week, and you rewire the way you think about yourself. And it helps you rewire all the bad habits and rewires your neuro pathways through different physical activities. So there's no like, medicine or plant medicine. It's literally just like scientists and therapists that have put together programming that help you quiet that imposter syndrome and also find that new Can't awakeen yourself and find that mode, that reborn mode. So he went there, and then he came back, and he wasn't playing this cat-mouth game anymore with me. And I was like, this is boring. I'm moving on. Because I was so used to this push-pull because I was like, once you have it, then you're like...

I was playing games. It's addicting. Yeah. I was playing games because it was a dopamine hit, right? And it's what I knew and things like that. So I had a really tough year, and And I finally went to Hoffmann towards the end of that year that we were separated. And then I got the tools and spoke the same language, and it changed my life. It saved my life. I would be dead without it. I would not be on this planet without that process. Why do you think that? And validation because the noise got so large. When Witness came out and things started to shift, and I thought I really loved myself, and I thought I really had that center, but actually that core was all created from outside validation. Everything started changing. And then I went to this process and it changed my life. It just helped me rewire how I think about myself, and it helped me connect my head to my heart. That's even what this album is about, 143. It's coming out September 20th, and That means I love you. And that's my angel number. I don't know if anyone ever knows what that is or you needed an affirmation or a sign or a symbol from somewhere else to know that you're on the right path or whatever.

We were going through a really challenging challenging medical situation that was causing me a lot of anxiety. And then I started seeing one, four, three everywhere. And it's on a receipt in a parking spot. Random, random, random, random, like crazy, not even on your phone, because I get it. We see 1111 a lot. We do. And I looked it up, and it's the digital I love you from back in the day. And I just was like, oh, this is just my angel self saying, I got you. I want the best for you. I love you. Communicate with me. Commune with me.

Commune with me. You sitting here saying, if I had not gone away to this program, I don't think I would be here. I would not. If you could say something to that woman that was in that spot, what would you say to yourself right now?

I wasn't in my right mind, so I don't know if I could. And there's a lot of people that do have some moments where they're either extremely depressed or extremely anxious, and they're not really in that balanced right mind. So they're like, I don't even know to do. The first thing I did 15 years ago was actually the best thing I did, which is learn a tool like meditation, having access to meditation.

Everyone has their own thing that works for them to get them through tough times.

Yoga, dance, get into your body, out of your mind.

Did you in Orlando talk while you guys were not broken up or no?

I-ish. He was boundary.

Who initiated Getting Back Together?

I was doing a show that was close to where he He was on vacation, and I was like, I'll pop over. But I had promised that I was going to do the Hoffen process. But I literally was in a bad state, and I needed his... I needed his... We all have our strengths And then our opportunities for growth. But one of his strengths are when I crumble, he can step in and be that anchor. That's amazing. Because I'm usually just alpha, alpha. I'm like, testosterone, testosterone. I got this. I got this. I don't need any help. But actually, I do need help. I do need a partner. I went on a guided journey the other day. And for as strong as I am, I was like, no, I do need. I do need. I do have needs. I do need help sometimes. So it was a beautiful revelation. It was the one thing I got. And I did that last week. I could be so strong. But, yeah, everybody needs help being a mom.

How has it changed your life?

Everything. It was the view I was looking for. I mean, I appreciate and enjoy. And I probably, again, would not know that that was the view I was looking for unless I climbed other mountains. I literally got the opportunity to climb Mount Everest, and I planted my fucking flag in Everest. Not actually, not literally, but like, teenage dream is that massive mountain. And I had it and I did it. And then I tried to climb other mountains. And I loved those views. But then I was like, well, God, there's got to be something else. And I had my child, and it was like, oh, this is all the love I was ever looking for. And there's a song on the album that's called All the Love, and I wrote it out of that. I was at a place where I was like, oh, I guess I'll be okay with not feeling that intense love or not... I mean, I have an intense love with Orlando. It's a beautiful love. But I feel like a soulmate can come in any form. It could come... You could be soulmates with your mother. You could be soulmates with your sister.

You could be soulmates with your daughter or your son or your dog. Before they have kids, they have a dog. They're like, how am I going to love anything more than I love this dog? Sweetheart, wait for it. It just it shifts. It changes. I mean, when she came into my life, and she is a true king, she is a real king. She's very strong-willed, very outspoken, beautiful, and such an empath. She's very heart-centered. I mean, on the playground, at the beach. When we were in London, there was a girl that fell and literally she gave her lollypop to her. And I was like, you love lollypops. You gave her a lollipop away to her. And it just made her so... It made the little girl that felt feel so good. And so Daisy is such a kind empath and cares and worries about the world. And she's got a great intuition as well. She's my gift, I think, for doing all that work, too. We intentionally brought her into this world. We knew we wanted to have a child. We knew we were going to... Okay, let's do it. Let's do it as a celebration of all the work that we've done together and create this being.

And so she's the gift. She is exactly what I get for doing that. And I'm continuing to do the work. And so there is no there, there. But if you get the opportunity, it seems like it's the biggest cliché in the world is to procreate. But it's the reason why people still do it, and they've done it. It's everything. So I feel like I'm operating from such a more whole place. The biggest lie that artists are ever told is that we have to stay broken to create. So true. Because if we go to therapy, it's going to change me. It's going to turn me into a different person. That is a lie from the pits of hell. You'll become a different person. You will evolve a better person, a more centered person. And so for the first part of my life, into my, I would say, my 30s, I was operating on just pain gas. And then the car lit on fire. And I was like, I got to get out of here, or else I'm going to get devoured. And now it's a totally different. It's electric now.

I'm so happy for you because I see the way that you're lighting up when you're speaking about her. And it's so inspiring. And I'm so happy for you that that woman in 2017 pushed through and did the work and found herself and got the help you needed and found the way to get to where you are now because you have created this beautiful life outside of yourself.

And it's just- It's a sanctuary.

It's beautiful.

And I'm so grateful for it because I didn't have it. And I know what it feels like to be all career, all that, and to not have it, and to be coming home at the end of the night, literally so lonely, so sad. And everybody in the world thinks you're just like, yes, honey, kill, slay, boots the house down. You're like, I'm so sad. I hate life. I don't know anyone to celebrate. Nobody sees me. And then now to have this foundation, this core, I take my daughter to school on a Yeah. We go to preschool sometimes on a bicycle, and I'm just like, I'm literally that Leonardo DiCaprio meme where I'm sitting outside with my face in the sun just going like... I'm like a labrador dog. Just like, yes. Yes. This is living. I've never felt so free as I do on a bicycle with the beach and my hometown and all that. Happiness. Fine happiness.

One, four, three.

I always wanted to make a record like this. There's a A lot of dance, pop, rhythmic, I would say, because when I go out into the world, I want to dance with everyone.

What is your favorite song on the album? If you had to choose, that's the worst question I know, but if you had to choose for the Daddy Gang to go listen to one thing when this comes out, what are we listening to?

I guess I would say all the love because it also encompasses this conversation and the journey of me looking for a love, me finding the love, me having the love inside me all along and tapping into that. With me having a child, there is poetry in every moment. Everything is new again. It's like I get to relive life through her eyes.

I will also say what I really like about 143 is I feel like you have this great range. When I was listening to Gorgias and love Kim Petrace, and I- KP. Yeah. I just feel like- KP, KP. You have such great range. We're like, that's what I'm listening to, and I'm getting ready to go out with the girls. It's great.

I really wanted to make a record that was celebratory, full of love, light, joy, hope, and BPM, because get out of your head. Get into your body. Get into your heart. Dance. Sweat out those toxins. Feel yourself. Embrace your sexuality. Find your feminine divine. All of that.

I do want to ask you about one collaborator in particular. I know a lot of people have expressed disappointment and were really upset that you decided to involve Dr. Luke on this album. Why did you choose to work with him?

Look, I understand that it started a lot of conversations. And he was one of many collaborators that I collaborated with. But the reality is it comes from me. The truth is I wrote these songs from my experience of my whole life going through this metamorphosis. And he was one of the people to help facilitate all that, one of the writers, one of the producers. And I am speaking from my own experience. When I speak about woman's world, I speak about feeling so empowered now as a mother, as a woman, giving birth, creating life, creating another set of organs, a brain, a heart. I created a whole ass heart, and I did it. And I'm still doing it, and I'm still a matriarch, and feeling really grounded in that, that's where I'm speaking from. And so I created all of this with several different collaborators, people that I've collaborated with from the past, from teenage dream era, all of that.

In working with the same collaborators throughout your career, how do you think you've evolved as an artist?

I feel like I've always been authentic in trying different genres, investigating different sounds. I don't think I've ever been inauthentic. I don't think I went for a trend or anything. I just do what makes me happy and that I resonate with and that gives me those chill bumps. And even more so now, I don't feel like I have to make music. I don't feel like I have to prove anything. I'm doing it now from a place of celebration and love.

I cannot thank you enough for coming on. Thank you.

I wish the best for you. I hope the best... Not wish. I hope the best for you. I know you're on an incredible journey. You're a young lady that got a lot of attention and a lot of new success. And just remember your compass Just stay true. Keep your friends. I've had some of the same friends for 20 years. And just keep those people around. The people that tell you no, you keep them closer. You say why. And maybe Okay, maybe not, but just keep them closer and just get those tools. Go investigate meditation. There is a reason why it's been around forever because it works. Be connected to divine.

I love you. Thank you. Thank you. We did it.

We did it.