My new book, What This Comedian Said Will Shock You, is out in two days, May 21st.

He met with me, and I said to him straight up, I said, Listen, if this is going to be about Bruce, I understand that, okay? But let's stop this right now. Who's going to know about this stuff?

You think they're not going to be playing Born to Run in a 100 years? Oh, please.

I hope you're right. I'm not sure. I have no sense of time. Really? But since I saw you, was it more than a year ago?

Maybe it was. Breakfast at the Polo Lounge. When we breakfast, we had eggs at 1:00 in the afternoon.

More than a year ago, you think?

Oh, yes. I would say three.

Oh, okay.

Then yes. I mean, Soul Fire was just out.

Oh, all right. What year was that? That's 2017.

No, it was after that.

The Summer of Sourcery was 2019. Maybe it was my second album.

It's It's funny what your mind remembers. I remember, well, probably because I play it all the time. It's a great album, Soul Fire. Oh, thank you. Soul Fire. I mean, the title track is great. What's that ballad you sing?

The City Weeps It Night. Weeps Tonight.

That's a great-Real duwop. You have real chops. I swear it's like singing. I don't think people know that. I mean, that is a song that you never hear in the East Street Band. It's almost do-up, right?

It is do-up. It is du-up. It's really pretty authentic du-up.

It's very authentic. It's awesome.

I love that genre, which is really a lost genre.

Billy Joel did, yes, you know. Big Hits. Uptown Girl.

Yeah.

What was that one? And then there was another one that was, of course, deliberately in that style.

Yeah, he's a big Four Seasons fan. Right.

As am I. I opened for them. Really? Yes. When I was 26, I did one Tonight show or something, and I opened for Diana Ross in Las Vegas, and then I opened for Frankie Valley on the tour. Oh, no, I'm sorry. This was right before my first Tonight show. I did the tour, went right to the... This was 1982. It was their 20th anniversary tour. I was even on the tour bus. That was horrible. When's the long time since you've been on a tour bus?

You see what we go through in the rock and roll world, right? What? I mean, the old days. The old days. Tour bus was a step up.

Right.

Step up? From the station wagons.

Oh, the van, right.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Tor bus, you were starting to make it.

Right. You have a bus. You're right. Everything's relative. Some guys don't have a bus.

No.

But now it's a plane. Which is great. I know you're a big revolutionary, but I hope you don't ever feel guilty.

All the environment stuff?

Any of it. Having money is not a crime.

Oh, no, I got no problem with that. Well, Good because? Because I'm broke most of the time.

Really? What are you talking? Why are you broke?

Well, I got a big overhead.

You got a big nut?

Yeah, big.

Big nut?

I got...

What's your nut? What's in your nut?

Well, I got a record company that barely breaks even. My entire radio network loses money. The garage band one? Yeah.

Oh, it's so good.

Yeah. No, that's what I mean. Well, the thing I feel like that is most in your DNA is one, integrity.

You do what you like, what you want, what you think is important. Two, it never aligned with what the public may think.

You're so right. You are so right. It's like You can't worry about it because I feel like I'm doing good work, and that's what counts.

You're not exactly starving.

No, I don't mean to be a winding rock star, God forbid.

You're not winding at all. I'm insisting that you- No, but I'm just Me and money just don't get along too well.

You know what I mean? I just don't think. Really? I'm not an entrepreneurial guy.

You got that shirt. I can't. That thing doesn't look cheap at all. Where did you get that shirt? I don't know. What do you That's how rich you are, but you don't know. There was a time in my life, if you went through my closet and where did you get that? I could tell you exactly where I got that because I had four shirts. My first sport jacket that I bought for doing standup cost $5. Then I had it tailored, which cost $20. The tailoring cost four times what the jacket was. But I had my $25 jacket. I still have it.

So you're open for the Four Seasons. To me, I did, too.

What?

With the Dovels.

You opened for the Four Seasons? Yeah. We have that in common? Yes.

What year? 1973.

Wow.

I joined a group called the Dovels, which had a couple of big hits in the early '60s.

The Dovels? Terrific. That was before my time. Oh, yeah. The Dovels.

Yeah, they had You Can't Sit Down and Bristol Stomp. Terrific record.

You Can't Sit Down. What was that about? A colosmostomy?

What?

You Can't You can't sit down. Hemeroids. It's a dance thing, a dance thing. Oh, I see. That's so funny. At my age, I hear the phrase You can't sit down. I think hemeroids, not that I have hemeroids, but I know people who do and travel with a pillow. But of course, when you're 16, you're thinking, you can't sit down. You got to get up and dance. Okay.

Not a bad idea for a commercial, however. Right. There you go.

You make a fortune.

Anyway, I just By some chance, ended up in the backup band for the Dovels. I was so glad I got to Vegas in '73. It was like the last year the mob was there. I got a chance to see the old Vegas before the new Disneyland Vegas. It was really different. It was really different. I'm glad I got a chance to see it.

Now, when you say last year of mob rule, it's not like the contract ran out. But I know what you mean. There was an era, and a lot of people say that era was better.

No doubt about it.

I'm sure that's not true if you were buried in a shallow grave in the desert. You know, recently, this is true. This was in the paper, two years ago when we had horrible drought. You know that. We've had it forever. Luckily, we've had rain recently. And Lake Mead got to the lowest level ever. So where there had been water forever. And they found tons of bodies, pinky rings. Like just a skeleton with a pink. Oh, man. I mean, there was a lot of shit down there, but I agree. It probably was better when it was more of a rat packy town. That's what It's meant. It's an adult playground.

Yeah, but here's the thing. First of all, it was only seven or eight casinos and nothing in between. So we played a Flamingo.

Just the Strip. When they said the Strip, I remember, even when I was there in '82, it It was just one road, every hotel on either side of one road. That's not Vegas now.

But a long way from each other. We played a Flamingo, and Caesars was like three football fields away. It was at the end of the block. And nothing in between. You know what I mean?

Nothing in between? No.

No. Land, I'm telling you. Really? Yes. There was nothing. There was literally seven or eight casinos on the entire strip other than downtown.

The Riviera. The Sand. Desert End. The Sand. Desert End. Dunes. Dunes. Flamingo, maybe the original.

Yes, the original. Was probably still Which I was thrilled.

Right. Caesar's Palace is probably the end of the block. You're right.

Well, yeah, it was diagonal.

There was no Luxor. There was no... No.

But here's the thing. The whole intention of the town was to make money from gambling and nothing but gambling. These buffets were like 279 lobster and steak. The rooms were $29. You know what I mean? Yes. The lounge was $6, and Frank Sinatra could walk in, $6. Here's the mob problem.

The lounge, you mean not the main-Not the main room, but there was a main room, and then there was a lounge. To me, that's what Vegas is missing the most currently is there's no Lounge acts.

Yeah, that changed.

Which is a shame because that's where you saw Don Rickles. Or you could see acts who are coming up or on their way down. It happened at 11:00 at night, midnight, 2:00 in the morning. It's a late town. If you want to do something after, like when I work there, I'm playing at the same time all the other shows are. When I'm done, everything's done. Then people go to discos. I don't go to a disco.

Yeah. There you are. They're making nothing but money from the gambling. The mob's probably grabbing a third off the top, right? And everybody still got rich. Everybody got rich with no money from entertainment, food, or rooms, right? With the mob taking a third off the top, and everybody still got rich.

I think they had entertainment pretty much from the beginning.

Yeah, but it was a lost lead or whatever they call it. They lost money.

It may still be a lost lead. It was always meant to be.

Yeah. Now they make money from everything. They charge it for the fucking Wi-Fi now. They're not going to leave a dollar on the fucking table. No.

And they don't know how to treat people anymore. Oh, no. Not really.

Yeah. Unless you're a whale, unless you're a big gamut.

But even the entertainment, I mean, they've been very nice to me. I was at the Mirage for a long time. Now I'm at the MGM Grand. They're great. I mean, they're very nice people. It's just that the way the hotel business is, you just can't... I mean, I blame the millennials. I'm sorry, but I do. I mean, I have this long running thing, and I guess you want to say that this makes me a diva, okay, but you're wrong. It's not. All I want in my room is a fan. Just one person who's watched all my shows. No, an electric fan. I just want an electric fan because it never gets cold enough in the room. Do you like it cold when you sleep?

Not too cold, but yeah, I know what you mean.

I like it cold. Get under the cover. Okay. And also for noise, white noise. I like the sound of a fan, but it helps me sleep. It's harder for me to sleep on the road. Okay, you call up, can you put an electric fan on the road? If you can't, just say no. But these are five-star hotels. Of course we can. For Mr. Maher, what else can be? It's like nothing. Just a fan, water. Again, I don't think this makes me a giant diva. And again, if you can't do it, just say so. But they say so, and then you When I get there, it just seems impossible for a simple message to be transferred for more than one or two people. I hear you. I feel like this has great repercussions for our country in general, because if they can't get a fan in my room, I can see why they can't close the border if they want to. Whatever it is. It's a direct correlation. I do. I just think people just can't fucking do anything anymore.

Well, yeah, I think you're right. I mean, part But part of the problem, of course, is just they got bigger and bigger and bigger. Until now there's 3,000, 4,000 rooms, whatever they are.

That's it, of course.

What are you going to do with that? Plus, since COVID, nobody wants to work. They're having trouble finding workers. All the hotels that we tour always had 24-hour room service. Not anymore. They can't find people to work. Partly that, partly the bigness, and partly the corporatization of everything where nobody gives a shit.

One more thing that Frank Sinatra, I really feel had going for him that got him great service, the threat of violence. I feel that is what's missing in R. We don't have enough threat of violence so that they're like, Oh, the fan? We put three fans in that room. No, they know I'm not going to do anything to them. It was better when Vegas read it. That's all I'm saying. A little threat of violence is not the worst thing in the world when you're running a government.

You're not wrong.

I mean, why do we have police? I mean, what is that? A military threat of violence. If you get out of line too much, we allow a monopoly on violence. You're allowed... There are people who go into the army because they're like, I'm allowed to shoot somebody. And cops, I mean, some of them certainly enjoy authority, shall we say?

Too much. Well, they say this sometimes.

Joy, authority, Keep in mind, I hold the biggest police fundraiser in the country. I am a big supporter in the police. You know that.

I know you are. And a critic when they deserve it. I am an independent law and order liberal, which that's how I describe myself.

That's great.

Now, in New York, we have the opposite problem going on with the police have their hands tied behind their backs and they can't arrest anybody. Exactly. They're going crazy. We have five people, I think, throwing on the subway tracks in the past week or two. Two people in my neighborhood punching women in the face. The no bail thing was big for a minute. You can punch a cop in the face and be back on the street the next day.

It is amazing, the recidivism. I read these stats many times. A third of all the like, smash and grab type of stuff or like, petty robberies are by the same 600 people who just keep being put back out there to do it. Some of them done it dozens and dozens, I think maybe even 100 times. Insane.

And this law that you can steal anything under $1,000 and it's okay? Who comes up with these things?

I'm so glad you're saying this because I feel like I'm always in this position where I'm having to explain to people, okay, I'm still the liberal I always was, but this woke shit, if I can use that word, this is not liberalism. Liberalism was never about, Yeah, let's legalize crime.

Yeah. It began with the privatization of prisons, which is the most insane concept ever.

That's more of a right wing thing.

I mean, it's insane.

That's a corporate thing. That's a greed, corporate operations should take over as much as they possibly can. That's definitely a right wing thing.

Hey, let's make crime profitable. What a concept that is, right? I mean, there's that going on on the other side. Yes. Look, you're totally right, though. Look, up top, at the higher echelons, it's mostly a Republican problem. And locally, it's a Democratic problem, okay? Certainly in my neighborhood. Do you still live in the old neighborhood? I'm in a village, in Greenwich Village. It was the best neighborhood in New York. It was the best neighborhood in New York. And now it's terrible. It was just totally peaceful and hippies and artist type people. Bohemian. Bohemian and safe. I live a half a block from Washington Square Park. Living near a park used to be beachfront property. Now, they're homeless encampments. There's nobody solving these problems.

Again, if I may, the difference between liberal and woke. Liberal was in the name of compassion, for God's sakes, let's get these people off the street. Woke, that's not their view. Their view is homeless people are like an endangered species that needs to be protected in its natural environment. That's insane, frankly. Living their best life under a bridge. It is insane. But again, that's the argument. You see why I almost have gray hair now? Because I'm always having to make this argument. I've heard people come up to me and say, Well, I don't like it when you make fun of the woke. I'm woke. I'm like, No, you're a liberal. Woke migrated to this other place that I'm making fun of for a good reason because it desperately needs to be made fun of. But the word does trigger people, that word woke.

It means different things, I guess. Exactly.

People don't- Because at first, it was a That was a good thing. At first, it was a great thing. Consciousness. Alert to injustice. Right.

A consciousness about- Who would know better than the man who ended Apartheid?

No, people don't know. When you were on real-time, I think you were surprised at the direction I went with that interview. But I really wanted to highlight that part of your life, the least financially rewarding part.

While my bandmates bought mansions on tour.

No, but it is what I was saying then, I will reiterate, it's true. Musicians, in my estimation, I've said this here before, I'm sure, I think they overestimate their place in changing the world. They like to pat themselves on the back and say, Oh, we change music, bass, art, no art really can change the world. One of the few exceptions is I really feel like what you're marshaling those people for who is it the right time for Apartheid to fall, But peaceful revolutions are rare, and South Africa had one. I mean, they went from an Apartheid country to another. And then some of that credit goes to that, was it the clerk or whoever? He was the Gorbachev of South Africa, and But he was forced into it. Of course he was. But still, to manage it without a lot of bloodshed.

Well, that was Mandela's genius of coming out and saying, Yes, of course.

Let's be cool. It had to be Mandela.

That could have been a massacre. It could have been. Like no one would have believed. But he came out and was like, Let's be cool. And again, that's like a liberal thing to do, not a woke thing.

It wasn't pure. Purity would have been, No, we must kill the people who were... Yes, they were wrong. And history is always wrong if people are schmucks. But that was for practical reasons. I always feel like liberals are more practical. What can practically get done? And we should have also punished a lot of the 2008 Wall Street assholes who crashed the market. But we didn't. Why? Because it would have actually made it worse. So Obama was not pure. I've heard that criticism a lot. Obama, he sold us out. He didn't put anybody in jail after. Yeah, because that would have fucking put us in a depression. Warmer, sunnier days are calling. If you all up for them with Factors No Prep, No Mess Meals. Meet your wellness goals in time for summer thanks to the menu of chef-crafted meals with options like Calorie Smart, Protein Plus, and Keto. Factors Fresh, Never frozen meals or dietitian approved and ready to eat in just two minutes. So no matter how busy you are, you'll always have time to enjoy nutritious, great tasting meals. Make today the day you kickstart a new healthy routine. Crush your wellness goals this May with dietitian approved meals and ingredients that you can trust.

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No. Depending on the issue, this issue by I've been writing a political book now for 20 years. I don't know if I'll ever finish it. Really? I wanted it to come out. Speaking of which- I have a book coming.

I just wanted to give you a headshot of me, really. Although then I remembered I gave you one for Christmas. I have a book, What This Comedian Said Will Shock You. It looks like a clickbate. I love it. Anyway, it comes out in May. I signed it to you.Oh, well, thank you.It's an advanced copy. I think you'll be amused. It has been L-O-L-tested because these are mostly the editorials that I did on real-time at the end of the show. Okay. Collected, edited, put them in a sentence. Great stuff. Only the best stuff. It's amazing. I had 20 years to work with to pull the best stuff. I think you'll be laughing on every page. I'm confident now that you'll I agree with- With a camera. There's no cameras here. It's just us. Thank you.

I should sign mine to you. Please do. Did I do that?

Yeah, you did it, but you can do it again.

Okay. Well, first of all, let me just say, and I said this before, you were a great writer right from the start. I read your first book. I think it was your first book, True Story. I think it was called.

Yeah, that was a novel. I'm telling you, it was a fantastic book.

I read it when it came out. I'm not even sure I'd seen your stand up by then or not. I think that's a movie.

Why wasn't that ever a movie? We tried to because you know why? Because that's just not my area of my forte. I've learned as the years go by certain lessons, and one is you're not really given that many multiple great things you're good at. So just be happy with the one or two you have. If you have two, that's a lot. So I just don't think that getting something made into a movie, getting the script right, all the stuff that goes in, that's just not my forte. And I think the reason why is my mind works this way. This book is great because it's editorials I wrote, which is like me saying one thing, driving toward a point. The script is the opposite. The script is like, I have to think about how 12 different characters think. It's not really-But you wouldn't I don't have to do it necessarily. In the book, it worked because I can do it as a novelist where you can explain everything at length. And it was based on all these guys I started with. It's about my early years in standup. It was not hard to make composite characters.

I mean, a lot of the dial blog is things we actually said to each other. I believe that. But in general, that's just not my field. So that's why it never got me. But it would have been a great movie.

But you don't have to make the movie. Somebody buys the rights and you approve the script.

That's I never got a script that I liked enough. And it's so funny. It's full circle because one of the reasons I wrote the book was because I was so frustrated of watching how stand-up was portrayed. It's so hard to get it right. When you try to portray it, like when someone plays a comic in a movie, and you can see that they just told the extras who are the audience, laugh at this, but it never reads like, Oh, that really wouldn't get a laugh.

Did you go for Mrs. Maisel at that show?

I've never seen that one because I was afraid that I would watch it and think just that.

It's pretty good, man. I think.

Oh, I've heard it's great.

I mean, you would know better.

But does it show her doing stand-up?

Oh, yeah. Okay.

It looks like real stand-up.

To my eyes, yeah. I mean, you would know better.

It might be that. It might be as a comedian I'm especially attuned to it. It's like, finger nails on a blackboard. Just the way if you- You see a musician in a movie, it's never good.

You're absolutely right. It's always phony. No No matter how they try, it's pretty hard to pull that off. But Lenny Bruce was in it for a while. That was exciting. He's a cameo character, which is great to see him. He was good. The guy who played Lenny Bruce. Really? Yes.

Yeah, pretty good. I love it when people play famous people. I like impressions like that. Even if it's not an impression, I thought Shia La Buff was great as McEnroe. Did you ever see that movie? I did see that. Borg and McEnroe. Oh, they made a movie about their rivalry. Shia La Buff was perfect to play John. At that time of his life.

Must be kidding.

You cannot be serious. You know what? I love him. He's become such a great friend. He's such a great guy. And his wife, Patty. I know. But he is still him. There was a party right here in this room. My friend who was a high school tennis player, he goes up to John. He was so nervous to meet him. I was like, Go ahead, just say hello. Look at this room. There's 12 people here. He says, Hey, I just want to say hi. I'm such a big fan. I was a tennis player in high school, and I, of course, wasn't on your level. John stops me and goes, Of course, you weren't on my level. I was number one in the world. I love it when people get caught in the act of being themselves. I don't feel like they ever really captured you. I saw your 60 Minutes. No bit. Congratulations. That's a big thing to get a 60 Minutes profile. I had one in 1997 when the show was moving to ABC. Wow. Cool. I'd be afraid to look at it now. 1997? Oh, my God. What the fuck was I thinking? And how did my hair look?

Well, I was lucky because they did a good job. You never know how those are going to go. They did an hour in Rome and an hour in New York and got it down to 13 minutes. It's amazing.

Maybe it's just because I love you so much, but it always just bothers me that they put you... It always has to be something with Bruce Springsteen. Who's great? I know he's your boyfriend. I'm a fan, a huge fan. But I just feel like that Soulfire record, that to me is as good as any Bruce Springsteen record.

Thank you, man. Thank you. No, but I have to be conscious of it. You know that.

Because it's the same sound. Obviously, you're incremental to that or instrumental or something to that sound.

Yeah, and we have the same influences and all that and grew up in the same neighborhood. But it's something I got to be conscious of my whole life. I said to them when they called me because I was surprised, they called me. First of all, I want to meet with the boss, not some correspondence. Very rare.

The boss, Bruce Springsteen?

No, the boss of 60 Minutes. You see why I'd say that.

It's his common moniker you picked.

I found out the guy very rarely meets with anybody, but he met with me, and I said to him straight up, I said, Listen, if this is going to be about Bruce, I understand that, okay? But let's stop this right now. Because... Good for you. All right? He said, No, we don't want Bruce to begin it, or nothing to do with him, right? I gave him one more test. I said, All right, now, if you're really serious, you'll come to Rome, okay? Because we're playing Rome, and it's a really cool audience. You can take a shot of the audience. But no E Street stuff. And they come to Rome. Okay. Now, the course- Of course, if you're a 60 Minutes producer, you a trip to Rome.

That's what you're like, going to fight for the budget. It's so important we do this story because Stevie Van Zand. This is a gruesome story. It's the war in Syria and this. We've got to go to Rome. Send the other guy to Syria. Yeah, I got to be on the Stevie Van Zand story. It's too important.

Now they're passing every test, right? Now I'm thinking to myself, now it's right to the end of the interview and the end of this whole filming, I started thinking to myself, jeez, I don't want Bruce thinking I don't want him in the piece. You know what I mean?

I'm starting to feel a little- It's almost damned if you do.

Because they were totally holding up their end of the bargain. Nothing to do with Bruce. I said, you know what? I'm going to have him come in at the end because I want him to be in it. He's my best friend. I don't want him thinking I don't want him in the piece. I had him come in right at the end there, and it was wonderful. It was a nice little one-minute bit, but most of it was legitimately about my life.

Well, I mean, they asked you about you played the consigliere on the Sopranos, and it's...

Well, that's all right. That's all right. It was because it was true.

There are just some things they can't resist in the media. I remember almost the first piece I did, I must have been living out here. It must have been 1993, my old house. They shot me. Suddenly, they do in your house, around your house. It wasn't a mansion or anything, but it had a pool on the back. They shot me in the pool. They wanted to... I don't know what the fuck. Of course, the name of the article was in too deep. I just knew that if I had been on a tree, which they might have made me do that to, the name of the article would have been out on a limb. Then they'll fit the article to the picture. Really? Was I in too deep? Jesus. They've been kind to you, the media, pretty much.

Oh, very.

Yeah, I think so. I mean, you have a great reputation.

I've never gotten a bad review on any record I've ever done. I mean, it's amazing, really.

Also, it's cooler to be not the front guy. Keith Richards. A lot of people would...

It's easier.

Well, it's also like, did you see... It's my favorite of his movies, and I love all his movies, but did you see Once Upon a Time in Hollywood?

Oh, yeah.

Isn't that awesome? Awesome. Especially for people our age who remember TV in that era, how funny it is with all the references to the TV we grew up as kids. Remember the FBI? By the show, and also Screen Gems. It's a screen gem.

The best moment was Leo doing Hullabaloo.

Hullabaloo, exactly. But my point is, in that movie, Leo was the frontman. He's the actor. He's the star.

He was terrific.

He was terrific. But I'm saying the character he's playing. Brad Pitt plays the stuntman and his gopher. Best friend. Take one for the team guy. You get shot at.

Fix the antenna on the roof.

Fix the antenna on the roof. Drive me around. But because he is so confident in how cool he is, I mean, it's Brad Pitt, the perfect casting for this. It's like he's cooler. Dean Martin with Frank Sinatra. It depends on your taste.

I'm with you.

I feel like a lot of people are in that camp that I'm in. That guy is cooler because he doesn't need the spotlight. It speaks of a greater confidence. I guess I'll never get Bruce Springsteen on this show now.

No, it's true. It's true to some extent. People become that big a star.

He's handled it beautifully.

Yeah. I mean, I don't envy that obligation.

No, but some people handle it better than others. I mean, to still be as cool as he is without selling out. At that age.

And the quality of his work at this age is astounding. The latest album is fantastic. It was taken for granted, a letter to you. Oh, no, I love it. When you read those lyrics, I mean, come on. Incredible at this age.

I I still love the one he did right around the same time. It was all covered.

Oh, yeah. The Soul Tribute. Oh. Yeah. Terrific. Terrific. I mean, we played... Where were we? San Francisco the other day, he flies home to New Jersey to sit in with some country guy, Luke Bryant. Sure. Just because he likes him. And then flew back to San Francisco for the second show. You know what I mean? You don't have to do that.

No. Well, did you see the documentary on We are the World?

Yeah.

Okay. I remember when the song came out, like it was yesterday, even though it was 1985, I was doing a little sitcom called Sarah on NBC with Gina Davis, Bronson Pinchaud, and Alfred Witterer. We were four lawyers in San Francisco. I remember being in the makeup room as we were all getting dolled up for the show, and it had just come out, and someone had it on their boom box. We all just listened, and Mark Hudson was also on the show. He was a musician, and he was calling out who all the people were. Oh, there's Billy Joel, and there's Bob Dylan, and I mean, everybody was on that.

Yeah, amazing.

And Bruce had the lead. He had more lines than anybody. He was the... Oh, yeah? Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. And he was very raspy, which worked for the record because it was... It's great in the documentary, that moment where Quincy Jones, they're driving home at 8:00 in the morning, and he says to his friend in the car, Boy, the white guys really brung it. What a fucking tribute from Quincy Jones.

And he did bring it.

But in the documentary, they showed he was in Buffalo the night before, flew all the way to California, horse after the show, and showed up and just went, I think, right into the studio.

I love it. I love the documentary. They're completely wasted and tired They're doing the whole thing in one night. It's like five in the morning. Stevie Wonder decides we should have a versus why are you leaving?

Yes.

This was the highlight of the documentary.

Was it Wayland Jenny? Just walks right out.

This red neck, don't do no Swahili. I never heard that story. I mean, no one had ever said it. I'm like, Oh, my God, that's worth the price of It really is.

How do you feel about that? Do you feel he was justified in that? To just say, I'm not comfortable. Oh, really? Yes. I was told this was going to be a I mean, probably looking back on it, he probably he regrets it.

He probably says, well, they didn't end up doing this while he was after all, so it probably would have been fine. But I don't know. You can see both points of view.

I'm not that familiar with Mr. Jennings' work, but I don't feel like when I listen to the song and I still love it, I don't feel like I miss whaling Jennings. That's the thing. You know what? This song was over the top to me, but a little whaling Jennings, because I feel like Willy Nelson covers. I love his, My burning stone to bread, or whatever the line is.Yeah..

No, the Outlaws. I started a whole radio station based on those guys, on Sirius satellite. What were they called, The Outlaws? Oh, okay.

Whalen and Chris Chrisofferston and Johnny Cash.

Because country radio wasn't playing them anymore.

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85, that's right when you were doing yourself. South Africa thing, right? Yes. You had quit the band?

Yeah. I just got obsessed with politics.

That's the year, right around there, right?

Yes. Right around that time, I'm in South Africa doing the research. I went twice.

What year did a part that end? '89?

Yeah.

What year did they...

No, jeez, I should know that, shouldn't he?

Governments were... You said at the beginning, you were bad at times.

Yeah, he gets out of jail around '89, '90. I think they had the election like '90, '90. Something like that.

Yeah. What do you think of what's going on there now? It's not good. Not good? No. Because?

Well, I think it's still corruption going on, I think is-So hard to fight that in countries. I mean, really, it's tough.

Like, look at Haiti.

Oh, man. It's a shame.

Why do you think a place like that is It's never... People ask this a lot now. It shares an island with the Dominican Republic, the island of Hispaniola. Why is one place so markedly different than the other? And you know what the Dominican Republic is doing now? They're building a wall. Sound familiar? And they're going to make Mexico pay for it. No, that part I made up. They are building a wall.

Why one-half? I don't know. I know.

It's a puzzle.

The country needs to be reimagined. They were the first ones to declare an independence. They were extremely influential and ahead of their time in a lot of ways.

The first ones to get rid of slavery in the Western hemisphere, wasn't that?

Yeah, it was some amazing accomplishment.

Toussaint Revolution? Yeah.

One bad thing after the other. But I said to everybody, Sean Penn and everybody else was down there trying to help. I said, let's reimagine this place. Have the Amazon and Apple and go down there and you're like, you know what I mean? Put their companies down there or something like that where you just have a workforce and can reimagine the neighborhoods here because There's no other way to save this and bring it back. It just never stops.

Well, it's gangs, isn't it? That gangs are too powerful.

Now, it's all through Latin America, it seems like.

We're in a gang. Were you ever in a gang?

No.

Not a crime gang. A band is a gang.

Yeah. Well, that was the thing. What? That was the attraction for me. I wasn't interested in show business. I wasn't interested in the single person in the spotlight. Not at all. It was until when the Beatles came- You're Brad Pitt.

You're Dean Martin.

Yeah. When the Beatles came- You're Bud Abbott.

The Beatles came, and we had never seen bands before.

There were no bands in America. If you went to your high school dance, it was an instrumental group. Really? Yeah. You didn't see people singing and playing.

Like the Ventures?

Yeah. Big.

What is the Ventures? Why do I know them? Is it Hawaii 5:0?

Walk, don't run, Hawaii 5:0. In those days, there were a lot of instrumental hits on the track.

I always hated instrumentals on the radio. No, I actually like that song. I mean, it was good, but as a kid, you want singing. You just do.

Of course.

I was always... Remember Time is tight?

Yeah. Booker T and Booker T and the MGs.

That's your...

They were great. They were the house band for a lot of- That's your jam. Yeah. Right? Yeah, they were a house band for Sam and Dave. Is that right? So many others, yeah. Otis Redding.

Oh, yeah. That's why they never learned to sing. Can't even need to sing. Can't even sing. What does it cost? Nothing. You make money, then he gets.

Anyway, but the bands come and suddenly it is four guys or five guys, and they were like a gang. They were like a posse, a team. It just communicated an entirely different thing to me. I wanted to be part of that. I wanted to be part of something that we're all heading towards the same goal. That's when I wanted to be in a band. That's when I started playing. But up until then- The camaraderie. Yeah.

All of us who have no musical talent, and I speak for multitudes, even though many think they do. I at least know I don't. But I think we all crave that in a way, again, not just the music, but that feeling that you're doing something with four or five or 20 or 80 other people. That's so in synchronicity. It has to be. And when it is, you probably feel a connection to them that is very hard for other people to...

True. It's satisfying.

It has to be very satisfying.

Because you're part of a team.

It's a relationship that's working.

Yeah. It's not easy.

And relationships, like band relationships, can work on stage musically when they're working horribly in every other way. I mean, what band is ever not hating each other?

It's true.

You could almost not... You could certainly easier make a list of bands who didn't.

No, you're so right.

It's just the nature of the beast, obviously.

Luckily, when we grew up, they kept posting Secret. You know what I mean? You didn't know that until later. You bought the illusion of friendship. We were third-generation rock and roll in the '70s, right? We bought the illusion that they were all best friends.

Third-generation?

Yeah, the '50s being the first-generation.

I see. Then the '60s.

In terms of rock and roll, years. So we bought the illusion that they were best friends. I don't know if you ever see the Beatles second film, Help?

Of course. Yeah.

Well, that scene where they walk up to four different flats, four different apartments, doors. They open the doors and then they're all in the same apartment, right? Well, we thought that was how it was. You know what I mean? You lived together. You were a band, and you're in the same apartment.

The Beatles, they were so early on the curve of when rock got huge that they really did. When they were on the road, they're the biggest band ever, and they were sharing hotel rooms.

They never had their own rooms.

They were sharing the mic.

How crazy is that? Remember?

Oh, yeah. And I think, and of course- The mic was for harmony, balance. And of course, all of that made it better.

Yeah.

That's one reason why they're the primus into Paris gods on Mount Olympus. Totally. Partly because of that. When you're talking about the van and the traveling by bus and car, they tell that story of freezing England in winter, the van being driven by their roadie, and they're in the back lying on top of each other for warmth. Well, they said for warmth. Can you imagine? They'd have to switch after a time because the guy in the bottom was getting squished. I mean, that That band was tight.

It was hard to believe they never got their own rooms. It's so funny. But they were just making up the rules as they went.

I also loved it when they... I loved the sharing of the mic, just as a fan, just as an eight-year-old kid watching them. There was just something about watching them spit in each other's faces from two inches away.

But keep in mind, there were no monitors. Monitors was a recent development. When they played Shea Stadium-It was the PA system. The PA system. There's no monitors on stage.

What do the monitors do for you?

That's what you hear. You don't hear the PA. You only hear the monitors. The Beatles are not hearing anything.

Right. I know. Okay.

Ringo has said he had to follow.

Right. Visually.

I And I was at Shea Stadium, and they sounded like the records. They sounded perfect because they were on the same mic. They could hear each other. So the harmony was balanced and beautiful.

And because they were lying on top of each other and they spent eight hours a night on stage in Hamburg.

That's right.

They were forged in a way. I don't know if a band will ever be forged again.

It's true.

It's probably right to YouTube.

Well, that's the problem. I've talked about this many, many times, a lot of speeches after speech. You can't skip that bar band stage, man. Don't skip it. It's such an important stage. These days, you can learn your instrument and make your own record at home and put it right out on the internet, man. But you're skipping that most important stage of interacting with an audience, interacting with a band, seeing what effect those songs have on an audience, all of that. It's like doing stand-up without an audience.

Are you saying Justin Bieber isn't hard? Because didn't he go right from grade school to ushers? Wasn't he ushered into show business? Or am I getting that? Somebody adopted him and then...

Certain genres work better than others, okay? Straight to the online business. But rock and roll isn't one of them, okay? Rock and roll is more like I stand up to copy.

Do you ever collab with any... I'm not a collabor. No, come on. You know what? That is not the worst idea anybody ever had. Any of you kids listening out there, you would be a very cool, out-of-the-box collab with any of these kids today.

You know your kids. You never know.

You're saying you're not waiting for it. I'm telling you, it would be cool.

But you can't emphasize certain common ground. I mean, the craft is craft, man.

There's lots of cool acts out there who I think are great. You wouldn't collab with Post Malone? I'll collab with anybody.

Call me. Call me tonight. I'm not busy. No, I'd be happy. For the weekend. I'd be happy to do it.

That would be awesome.

I'd be happy to collaborate with anybody.

You could fucking I just don't think of it. You know what I mean?

I don't reach out to them.

Bring the soul fire to Justin Bieber. Could use a little... I'm right here. I mean, look at this guy. What are you, 70 and you got hair on your chest? It's completely black. What the fuck is that? I don't know. I can tell you, you don't die it.

No.

That's pretty great at your age.

I guess. I never thought about that because in my mind, I'm still 25. That's probably That's probably why.

That's probably why you... I mean, we all age, obviously, but you basically look the same. Some people, they just have a very different look, and some people are just like, Oh, that it's their look. That's the brand I've gotten used to. Yeah, it's a little rough around the edges. But that's as good as you can do as we go through life. Yeah. I mean, Mick Jacker is about to go on tour.

Got to love it.

You got to love it. He's 80, right? Yeah. To do the show he does at 80?

Come on. That generation and the whole baby boom generation are just completely changing the concept of time and chronological time. When I grew up, I didn't know anybody was over 65. I didn't know anybody in their 70s. The grandparents were... Half of them were in homes in the '60s.

They were dead.

Yeah, they were dead. I know a dozen people in their 80s who were on stage working, and the whole British invasion is turning 80. This is Pete Townsend, right?

All of them.

They're all going to turn 80. I mean, these are my heroes growing up, and they're still out there.

But you can't go on forever.

Eventually it'll end, I guess. But I don't look forward to that day. I tell you.

In movies, I mean, Clint Eastwood, I thought, went as far as you possibly could. Credibly, because first of all, I'm a giant fan. I just love his movies. I think he's a great filmmaker. Of course, yeah. As an actor, also, I think, very underrated. I think he should have gotten an Oscar in The Line of Fire. Did you ever see that one? That was a good one, yeah. Such a great movie, Wolfgang Peterson's. Anyway. But very late, he's making great movies.

Great movies. I mean, the one with Morgan Freeman, I think it did win. It might When was the movie of the Year? The Western. Oh, jeez.

Oh, you're talking about Unforgiven? Yeah. That was 1992. That was? You don't know time. Jesus Christ. Was it Jean Hackman?

'92?

1992. He's made 50 movies since then.

That's the most recent clip I think I've seen.

You didn't see Gran Torino?

No.

Oh, you are for such a treat. Yeah. Grand Torino. He was maybe '75 when he did that one.

How long ago was that?

Oh, like 15 years. I mean, he did one. Look, he did one last year when he was 90. And I was like, okay, for all you've given me in the past, I'll let it go. But come on, man.

It's done.

It's over. I mean, you can be a director until you're 150, I guess. But I just feel like, yes, there is a limit to everything. We are only human.

I just love the fact that the Rolling Stones is still out there, man, because that makes us the new guys on the block.

You have a show tomorrow night, right? Yeah. Okay. So what is your routine? I mean, is there any difference in prep? No. You were 23? No? No.

In fact, I do more now because I do the meet and greet before the show.

You have a meet and greet?

Hundreds tomorrow.

Hundreds of people. Hundreds. They paid an extra...

Oh, no, that's a different meeting. I also do that for my foundation. Oh, I see. This is for charity. This is just friends.

This is just friends? Yeah. You do it before the show? Yeah. Because you want to get out of there after?

Well, yeah, I have a certain philosophy about this, and everybody's different. Everybody's different. But when I'm off that stage at the end of the show, the office is closed. Now, I'm like, no. I'm done.

Do you do an Elvis exit? Where you just go right from the building?

Sometimes. Really? Yeah. But usually just to beat the traffic. It's horrible to get caught in your own traffic. Yeah. Most of the time we do that.

It's not horrible compared to so many things in life.

Not bad compared to the station wagon and the van. We keep things in perspective here. Exactly. But, yeah, tomorrow will be LA, New York, London.

And these are all... I mean, this is almost But every city, I will do a meet and greet for the foundation.

Right. I bet you do. I'll raise $3 million this year.

Who wouldn't want to get this close to you?

Yeah, we just charge more for the ticket and shake your hand, take a picture.

I understand. Oh, yes.

But it's like $3 million for the foundation.

Every year or every show.

Every tour.

Every tour.

Now, some people do it for their own profits, and that's fine. I don't want to mention their names. Right. Oh, they all do it. Not all, but many. Many.

I mean, there's what they call gold circle. I've been offered these things. To me, I'd have to be a lot poorer I went for this. You're right, I could do it for a foundation or something, but I'm not as good as you. I'm just like...

Well, not everybody likes to do the meet and greet before the show. They have a routine, like you were saying. Some people have to meditate and do all these things. I'm like...

Right. Also, I'd rather give my actual money. It's so funny when I was younger, they asked me to do a charity I always do it. And very often it was tough because charity audiences are the worst, certainly for me, because I'm politically incorrect. And charity is the most politically correct atmosphere because it's a charity. We're good people doing a good thing, and it's a good night. It was always painful to me. I got to a certain point in my career where I was like, Whatever it is, don't make me perform for those people. I'll give you the money. Whatever money you think I would have raised by being there, I'll just give you the money and not have to face this fucking oil painting of an audience that I could never possibly do well in front of. I mean, these people who should love me, I did one for animal charities. I mean, that's my cause. Peter, I love them. I'm with you. They get the lion's share of my charity. And that's where my whatever people, some people love babies. I love animals. Okay. Yeah. But I before audience is there and it's like, it's just, come on.

I know we're good people for a good cause, but you got to loosen up a little.

Well, that's why it was probably you, among others, I think Seinfeld, or We just stopped going to colleges at a certain point, right?

Similar- All of us. I did a piece on it once. Maybe you're remembering, and I quoted him. It was him, Chris Rock, and Larry, the cable guy, had all, at about the same time, announced they weren't playing colleges anymore. I had given them up long ago. Because I remember saying, a Jew, a black guy in a red neck walk into a college campus, and they can't wait to get the fuck out of there. But it's true. When Jerry Seinfeld, Chris Rock, and Larry the Cable guy all find it intolerable, maybe it's you. And it is. I mean, college is where humor goes to die. These fucking kids, these Hamas-supporting morons who go to these elite colleges, the mouth of the river from which all the woke nonsense flows down from.

Yes. It's an early An early woke thing in the extreme sense that you were talking about, right? Maybe started with colleges, right?

Collegees is absolutely where it is. That early woke philosophy. Because academics, they very often live in this I mean, that's where we get the term ivory tower, where everything is theoretical because they're in the classroom and they're very often left leaning. I mean, they're almost all left leaning from the beginning. And then they're partial to theoretical stuff. I mean, communism, which is still fairly popular, even though on that far, far left, because first of all, the younger ones, they don't study history, so they don't really get it that, yeah, no, we tried it. It's actually way worse than what we had, way worse, and makes more people more miserable and is way more oppressive. If oppression is your thing, you do not want to live in a Communist country. I mean, you know that.

Well, yeah. And again, there's different forms of it because I spent a lot of time with the Italian Communist Party, which is very different than Soviet Union or China or whatever they used to be. But most of the time people don't actually learn the definition of these words anymore. They just adopt them.

But the Italians got over their flirt with communism. I mean, for good reason.

But in its political philosophy, and I'm not here to defend it other than to say as a political philosophy, it That had nothing to do with the dictatorship of the proletariat did not mean dictatorship. It was a misinterpreted and turned into this fascist, basically a fascist on the other side of the spectrum. But the idea of communism, this idea of everybody sharing things, was not altogether. It's in and of itself a bad thing. It was just turned into a very bad thing. Everywhere, it was used.

It's not a bad idea. It's a bad idea to take it seriously as a model for how you could govern any place because people are selfish. Exactly right. You have to take advantage of that selfishness, which is what capitalism does. As bad as capitalism is, it's still better than any other thing because we've tried all the others. True. All you have to do, if you don't believe that, is watch that movie, The Lives of Others. The German movie was one best foreign film 10 years ago, something like that. Oh, you should see that, The Lives of Others. It's genius. It's about East Germany when it was communists. And this is factual. I mean, they reflect it in the movie and the story. But two out of the three people of the were reporting on the other one. I mean, you just don't want to live in that country or a country where you can't get rich. People have to think, I could be next. I might win the big check next time. They just do. It creates energy. Look, this country has a lot wrong with it, but one of the things we still have going for it that I know when I talk to anybody who's young or foreign is they still feel, well, this is a place where you can reinvent yourself every day and maybe make a fortune.

There's not a lot to hold you back if you're willing to really have something new and work hard. A lot of countries don't have that.

No.

They stop you.

No, it's true. Absolutely true. A couple of little fixes would make a big difference, man. I mean, some a billionaire tax I would start with. You know what I mean? When you start sending ships to Mars, maybe make a little too much money. You know what I mean?

It's something to consider. That's why I always compare capitalism to a raging river. You wouldn't want to reverse the flow of the river because that's communism. It's not going to work. But you want to harness that power as it goes in the direction it's meant to go to, towards selfishness, because we are. But you do need dams and locks on the river because otherwise you do wind up with... I mean, we're going to have a trillionaire at some point. Trillion.

And the disparity of wealth.

I mean, it's not- At that top levels, it's insane because I've read pieces where people prove that even if you tried and you were up 24 hours a day, you couldn't spend all that money. You couldn't spend $200 billion. It's really hard.

Unless you're building a ship to Mars. Spending too much on Twitter and then killing it.

Well, Elon legitimately believes, and this is an opinion I don't share, but deserves respect, I think. He legitimately believes that we need to be a two planet species because we're going to fuck it up here. I agree, we do look like we're going to fuck it up here, but we've always looked like we're going to fuck it up here. My argument always has been knowing what I know about Mars, which is not what an astrophysicist knows, but I do know there are basic facts like it has no fucking air and it's 200 below zero. And When there are dust storms that last for six months and you would have to live underground because the radiation. That's what I know about Mars. So my point is...You.

Have no room service.

How bad would we have to fuck up Earth where it was worse than that? And it was like, If it was worse than that, okay, I just call it a day. But I'm not going to Mars.

No, I mean, it's not.

I'm sorry. But he's sincere about it, and he's probably right. We probably will need a side piece planet because we're going to fuck this one up so bad. If you think the human race should continue, some people don't. I don't care. I really don't. Do you?

Would it be horrible?

It hasn't gone well. It has It's gone well. I think it's amazing how well it's gone.

Look at us. But not for 90% of the country of the world.

That's not true anymore. The amount of progress we have made in the 21st century about what they call extreme poverty, like people live on a dollar a day. There was a time when a billion people defecated in the street. Those stats have all gone way down in the 21st century. Country, muchly due to capitalism, even though there are purists who are like, How dare they build sweatshops? Because you know what? Sweatshop was better than sitting in the street. The rice patty. Whatever. The rice patty, exactly. Whatever. It's a bridge to... I mean, look at all these countries like Vietnam and Korea and Singapore and Malaysia and China China that started out like agrarian. In our lifetime, we've seen them move to sweatshop and then to a really discernible, respectable middle class. India has a lot of poor people. It also has a very big middle class and some very rich motherfuckers. True.

You can just even up the score a little bit. I think it'll make a big difference. And if Musk-No, I agree.

You know what I mean?

I agree. If Musk put his money into maybe Maybe some practical use on the ground rather than going to space. Well, maybe things would improve a little bit more.

This is the guy who already gave us the electric car, so you can't rob him of that.

Maybe the stupidest invention ever.

The electric car?

I mean, come on.

Why?

Oh, not the electric car. I mean, the self-driving car. Okay.

I don't mean the electric car.

Which one is- The self-driving car is the stupidest invention I've ever heard of.

I agree.

I mean, all What he's doing is putting tens of thousands of people out of work. Are you going to trust one of those things? No. That's got to be the stupidest invention ever.

Also because to work properly, again, theoretical versus real life. In theory, they work because they're tested on very smooth, good roads. Where are they? I live in a rich neighborhood, and the roads are horrible. Exactly. La cannot give you the roads you need to have for self-driving cars, and they probably never will.

But I mean, it's insane.

It's insane.

They spend billions on this. Billions.

He's got a lot of bad ideas. He's got a lot of great ideas and a lot of bad ideas. He's I put a lot of bad people back on Twitter.

A lot of bad people.

Well, and you think people should be banned from free speech?

Well, I'm with the Germans on the Nazis. I got to tell you the truth, okay? I just about had it with this First Amendment stuff, okay, at this point. I'm like, you know- That's not very liberal. No, I'm issue by issue. But I'm telling you right now, Nazis are a special class of people in my mind. They definitely are.

But then you think they just disappear? That's the problem. No. Wouldn't you rather know what they're saying?

No, I know. You have a good point. Where do you know? But if you own the thing, do you have to let him in? I don't know. We're at a dangerous point right now.

Are you optimistic?

A little bit, okay. I don't think he's going to get reelected. I really don't.

You mean Donald Trump?

Yeah, I really don't think so. I think this want to be Fourth Reich that he's part of. I don't think he'll succeed, but we have to admit that Oh, it's very impossible. He's certainly smarter than our justice system. Okay? I mean, that we know. Okay? Forget about the Justice Department. He's smarter than our justice system. I mean, at this point, it's not built for people like him. Well, a lot of- Spitten in judges' faces.

A lot of history, there is a theory they call the great man theory of history, which basically is saying, obviously, that certain men come along and you're men because most of history, but I'm Joan of Arc, maybe in this category, person of history will say, that's the important person, the Winston Churchill, the Napoleon. Other people say, no, history has its giant tides, the ebb and flow, and people just basically manage them. I would say technology is the determining factor in most of history. The technology changes in people, but that Then we just have to adopt. But in the great man theory, who are you talking about? I have to forget a minute ago why I started this whole conversation.

Well, the Oh, no.

I was the great man theory. I feel like with a great man in place where Robert Mueller was or a great man in place where Merrick Garland is now, I feel like things could have been different. I feel like a great person in those jobs. I feel like Mueller blew it. I'm with you. I did a whole thing on it once.

I'm with you.

And I feel like Merrick Garland blew it again. Here we are, almost four years after the elections right around the corner, and nothing has still come to trial. I got to blame that at somebody. I got to say that- I'm with you.

I don't blame the bad guys. I blame the good guys. What do you mean? We're the tough good guys. You can't blame the bad guys for being bad. That's what they do.

Okay? You know what I mean? Who would know that better than- Who would know that better than- Who would know? Who was your character?

Silvio Dantes.

Silvio, right.

I blame the good guys. I don't blame the RNC for the problems we have. I blame the DNC.

Do you have any acting things coming up? You like to be an actor, too.

I know. I want to get back on TV, but I'm stuck. We postpone a lot of shows, so this whole year now, we'll be making that up.

The tour is just starting?

Restartet, yes.

For how many?

We will do 52 shows, I think.

In how long?

The rest of the year. The rest of the year. They get a month off here, a month off there, but mostly the rest of the year.

Do you ever do two nights in a row?

Never. That's good. No, it's very civilized at this point. I mean, very. It's wonderful. It couldn't be more civilized. I mean, a lot of times, two days off in between shows.

So you always feel fresh.

Yeah. At this point, it takes a day or two to heal. It's like playing a football game. Yeah.

It's very physical.

Yeah. I mean, it is. Bruce, it is because you're standing up for three hours, that alone.

The show is still three hours long?

Yeah, just under.

That's a long... That's a lot Your fingers must hurt.

Well, that's what I mean. Do they? We're in good shape. No. Once you're in shape, it's okay.

Really?

But that's what I mean. If you have two days off in between.

Just mentally, you know what amazes me? How you guys can remember all the lyrics, all the cords.

Well, I have to tell you, I don't mean to blow our cover here, but there are telepromters now.

Of Yeah.

A lot of bands don't have them.

What about the notes?

Well, on my telepromter, it's chords and lyrics.

I just go full hog and I got a fucking holograph. Well, that's next.

That's next. I saw the Avatar Show. I saw the Abba Avatar Show. It's quite remarkable.

Wait, the what?

There's an Abba Avatar Show in London. They're showing what the future is going to It's going to be avatars.

And what does it look like?

Amazingly good.

It looks like Abba.

Yeah, it really does. And that's going to be the future of this because we're up here.

But you can't tell it's an image?

No, I I mean, maybe if you were in the first row, but we were 20 rows back and it looked very good.

As if you would not even know it was not Abba.

Pretty close. Yeah. And for the Renaissance period of music, which ended, that stuff that's not being replaced ever again is going to live forever, I think, as Abbatons.

What is the Renaissance period?

Well, I consider basically the '50s, '60s into the '70s as a Renaissance period, where the greatest art being made was also the most commercial.

But that's not what Renaissance means. Renaissance means rebirth. A renaissance has to do with something from way back when. The renaissance is- Art. Art, but it's taking the ideas of stuff from antiquity, which were dormant in the Middle Ages.

Well, but shrink the time now, the chronological time, to the '50s being the naissance.

Okay.

The '60s becomes the renaissance, where the best art, the greatest art, was also the most commercial. That's how I define a renaissance. That's not being replaced. It diminished every decade since in terms of the quality level.

Well, of course, the kids would just say, That's in your opinion, grandpa.

I don't think they would argue with that.

Oh, I do think so. I don't know. I think every generation... Look, I don't get a lot of what the young kids listen to music, but that's what my father said. I agree.

I agree with you. That's what our father said, only we're right. But I didn't diminish Frank Sinatra's value. I learned about it later. I didn't like it at the time when I'm growing up, but I certainly love it now. That's what kids, by the time they get to 17, 18, 19, everybody goes to a pop period. That's natural, right? 11, 12, 13 years old, you're into pop music. By the time they get to 16, 17, 18 now. They discover the doors, they discover Led Zeppelin. They discover us. We got a lot of kids in the audience. The pop stuff fades away now. It's a little bit more transparent, a little bit or... You know what I mean? As opposed to the '60s when the pop music was the greatest music being made. It was wonderful. I don't know. Yes, it's a matter of opinion. It's a bit subjective, I suppose. But all I know is they're not There's going to be a whole lot of future looking back at this period of time, I don't think, musically. There's exceptions to the rule. Of course, there's exceptions to the rule.

I'm pretty much exactly where you are on this, except that I don't feel like there's anybody who is consistently putting out just your number. I go by, How many songs are you in my iPod of yours? That's how I... Could I put together a great playlist of stuff from the last 10 years. Yeah, but it would be like two from this person, one from this person. I could do it, but it's just, to me, there's so much more crap surrounding it. Now, when we were kids, there was crap, too. Of course, there was bubble gum music, which we didn't like, or maybe we did.

I don't know. Appreciate it now more. Bubble gum? But even bubble gum.

Not yummy, yummy, yummy. I got love in my tummy. That was bubble gum music.

No, but Sugar Sugar. Did you hear Wilson Pickett's version of it?

Sugar Sugar is not the worst. It's not my favorite, but I agree. It has potential.

You could do a funky version.

He does of Sugar Sugar. It's fantastic. Really? You got to get it. Wilson Picket?

Yeah, Wilson Picket. But anyway, your point, though, is correct. Of course, there was lesser stuff. But we had rock and roll pop hits. There hasn't been a rock and roll pop hit in 20, 30 years.

And also, here's the difference. Our stuff from that era is still heard all the time. Commercials and movies. People know lots of songs from this Late '60s, especially, '70s, '80s. But when you go back from when we were kids, if you go back that same amount of years, '55, nobody knew anything from-Exactly. '19.

That's exactly That's exactly right.

This music has really endured more. That's right.

And that's why I think it's very important right now for the publishers or the writers or whoever it is to change the law. Because you can record... If I Can't record a song, you can record that same song without any permission. You have to give a little percentage of it. You have to pay a percentage of it, whatever, nine cents a song, whatever it is. But you can record the same song, right? That's not true in comes movies and film. You need a special license. Right now, because the record industry is dead, there's no more record sales other than Taylor Swift and Beyoncé.

It all goes to Spotify.

Well, that's the thing. You get no money. But worse than that, you got a bunch of whatever, 25-year-olds with a songlist with a number next to it. So if you want to make a movie or a TV show, you ask for the song, they at the number and they charge you that number, which is always high because there's no other income, right? The problem is, I know right now three or four great documentaries that are not going to come out because they can't afford to license the songs. This is a real problem. I think 10 years from now, 20 years from now, it's going to be a problem because all this music is going to die. If it's not promoted and heard like you're talking about, it's going to be like Motown Who, Rolling Stones Who.

No, it's not.

No, believe me. Believe me when I say this. When we started, music and movies was free. It was free. It was part of the... Artis Crosese didn't even ask for permission to put Be My Baby in Mean Street because it was free. People thought of it as promoting the records.

Nobody's promoting the records anymore.

When our generation goes, who's going to know about this stuff?

You think they're not going to be playing Born to Run in a 100 years? Oh, please.

I hope you're right.

Oh, of course.

But it would be helpful if they saw it in a movie where a lot of kids discover music. You see it in a movie, you see it in a TV show. Things I've come back on the charts from a song in Stranger Things.

I hear you, bro, but I got to say, of all the problems in the world, I cannot put movies are going to be bereft of great songs, like right at the top of the list.

No, That's not that type of list. But I'm just telling you right now, a lot of documentaries are not going to come out. I just feel it shouldn't be a permission thing. It should be a percentage of the budget. You know what I mean? If your budget is 200 million, then 5 or 10% can go to music. But if it's a $10,000 documentary, you know what I mean?

How much do you think documentaries have actually changed the world? Like, actually changed? Getting back to my thing about you and the Parkside, I really think you put an issue on the map, and then soon after there was movement. It started a ball rolling that didn't stop till it was finished. I do find that very rare. And not to pick on documentaries. I mean, I made one, Religious. It's a documentary, a comedy documentary. It did very well about religion. And there are people who come up to me privately. I'm out and say, I saw your movie and I'm an atheist now. But I don't feel like it... Okay, yes, I guess one drop in the ocean.

That's all we can do.

What else can we do? Well, I do feel like your Apartheid thing was a bigger than a drop in the ocean. I feel like it- I got lucky.

I got lucky, okay.

The timing was right. You stepped into a thing and you saw an issue and you laser focused on it. And that is really an anomaly because honestly, as W. A. Jordan wrote once, Art is small beer. He said, Art never stopped one Jew from being shoved into the ovens.

Well, if they see a documentary on the Holocaust, it might keep this Fourth Reich out of the White House.

I don't think it will. I just don't think people- One vote, two votes, nothing? I don't know. How do you know? He might make them vote for him. You just don't. These kids today, kids today with the marching for Hamas and the crazy haircuts and the jeans. As I say, we drop them as stinkponds on Vietnam. Am I right, Stevie? Okay, we'll be back to rock chat. Let's do a show together. I should be on your radio show and do rock chat. Yeah. Because I know a lot about music.

I'm sure you do.

No, really. I do. People note that. I mean, just as a fan, it's very liberating to not have any musical talent because then you're just a fan. Really?

Yeah, absolutely. Any time.

Let's do something. You never ask me.

We'll invent a new segment. You know what I mean? The Bill Maher Coolest songs in Cory DeBille this week. Something. We could do something.

Well, we could do a whole show on the iPod as opposed to modern streaming, even though people are sick of me hearing me talk about how I still use the iPod, but I would like to have the time and space to make a full brief for the iPod, the old iPod, the one with the circle in the middle. What?

It looks like the transistor radio.

It looked like a transistor. You're right, it did. I remember having a transistor radio at the beach on Long Beach Island. Oh, yeah. Do you know Long Beach Island? We used to... You're from Jersey, right? Yeah.

You I know the area, yeah.

Did you ever go there? Yeah.

That's Jerry Blabbit territory, right?

What was that?

Yeah. We're famous DJ.

Oh, no. But isn't that near where your Asbury Park?

No, it's further down.

Of course it is, but not that much. Was it considered bougey to you guys? Maybe it was a little more.

No, it's 45 minutes.

Right. I guess you had to... Well, see, there was a storm in 1962, a hurricane or something that blew the houses all the way from the ocean into the Bay across the island, and it was declared a disaster area. So my father swooped in in 1964 when it was like a disaster area and bought a beach house for $18,000, a duplex. Good move. Yeah.

Right on the beach?

It was- Across the street. There was the beach, and then the street started, which is barely paved. There was one house, and then we were the second house from the beach. I mean, you could be in the water if you ran in 90 seconds.

Right. You were protected by the wall, right? There was like a wall, a stone. Oh, no? Just a road?

Just a road in between. It was a jetty at some point.

When you get up a little bit further north- No, I mean, that's one reason why it was so cheap was because That did happen once, but I guess they just were like, fuck it.

At some point, they started to build again, and people, I don't know.

Got suckered in again.

There's definitely no wall. How can you build a wall? You can't build a wall.

No, up Seabright and Longbri. There's a stone wall in between the beach and the road. On the other side of the beach, there's a big wall.

That's fucking ugly. Who wants to live with it?

Until the hurricane comes, it's Then it- Well, I don't want to live by the water at all, anyway.

So you still have the house down here or no?

No.

I mean, we sold it in the '80s.

It's probably worth 10 million now.

It is. It probably is. It's amazing. I would shatter the thing. It's probably a million dollar property. That's amazing.

Your father had the foresight.

Yes, 18. But you never went to the Jersey shore? That wasn't a part of your whole? Oh, yeah.

We were considered... I was in Middletown, which is 20 minutes.

What county is that? Essex?

Mahometh County.

Mahometh, right.

We played all the beach clubs. That was part of the circuit.

Right. That was your Hamburg, the Beach Club?

Yeah, and Asbury, and the Upstage Club.

Are beach crowds better or worse?

What, now?

Like anytime. Like beach. Because I feel like the beach is a world of its own. Even though I only live like, what, 10 miles from the beach. Whenever I go out to the Hermosa Beach or one of those towns, it's like a whole different world.

Different culture Sure.

Yeah. Not better. I'm not criticizing. I'm just saying I don't know what the crowds would be like. Would it be more laid back or would they be so relaxed? They were great. I don't know.

Well, that whole scene was the first Stoneers, the first surfers. They were all ahead of the curve with that stuff. But a little more relaxed. But we never were a member of a beach club. My family was middle class, but not that high up. But we played all the beach clubs, and it was mostly middle class audiences back then. It was great because when you were a teenager, especially then, there was no rules, no adult telling you what to do because they didn't know what rock and roll was yet.

That's how great you had that because I'm sure as long as it's been now that you've been in front of the stadium crowds, I'm guessing it just never gets old. You never take that for granted, having lived through the lean years.

Especially now.

It just must be such a joy to hear so many people so excited by you. Yeah.

No. Because I have a record label with a lot of little bands, and we can't get people to come out. We just did a tour with four bands, all of whom could tour on their own. Terrific bands. We didn't do 50% of the capacity of any club. It's hard to get people to come out. So you're so right. I don't take it for granted for one minute.

When you look at that list of who makes the most money touring, it's almost all the older bands. I mean, obviously, Taylor Swift, Beyoncé, I'd say that there are ones that probably are at the top. But other than that, it's Paul McCartney. It's the Rolling Stones. It's you guys.

Yeah, you two are the new guys. They're the latest ones to break through. Probably the last one is a breakthrough. All right. Well, there's a couple, Green Day. There's some that do well.

You don't look like you need to rest up for the show, but I'm going to let you go and release you back the wild because-I don't know.

I like it here. Can't I live here?

You can. I'm sitting here all night. They told me you wanted to be out at 7:00. Look how good I did. What is it with the drugs? You have such a good life. Why do you need drugs on top of it?

It's been so long, man.

I don't even remember. Yeah, me too.