They say opposites attract. own message that he's the only one that can win, and it's going to be really hard.Doug, for you as a messaging person, were you like, Biden could never come out of this, or I'm not shocked?Well, first, I think Kevin stole a memo that I wrote for our clients. I said 96 hours. Watch Biden over the next 96 hours to see. Whenever a decision like this is made, it's always a shock, even if it's not a total surprise. What I was looking for was the two things, so I'll slightly argue against myself. Sunday seemed to be the perfect time for Biden to do it. If he were going to do it, that would be when I would expect him to. But there was also a push and pull on this. Nancy Pelosi had essentially said, I think Kevin would agree, a lot of respect that we have for Nancy Pelosi and her political prowess and skills. She basically was saying, We're going to do this the nice way, or If you don't go, Joe, we're going to do this the not nice way. That was coming on Monday, 9:00 AM. It wasn't a surprise that Nancy Pelosi was all over TV more than she usually was. That told me there might be some movement, but what happened was still essentially unprecedented, so it is still a surprise.That was the part that really also helped me up was having worked on these things. They are so, so hard, you're not returning a rental car. This is, again, a multi-year organization with multi-billions of dollars behind it. The idea that you can just take one candidate, switch it out. One of the things that I found annoying was watching all the punditry and the reporting not really take stock of just how hard that is.There was a lot of flippant, all they have to do is if they only just did this.It was all coming from people who've never even been close to a presidential campaign. So for me, it was like, I think just people need to take stock of how hard it is. And here's the I think. It's been a really good week, week and a half. The tension and a lot of the challenges that still remain with a campaign switching candidates as quickly and then having to develop a profile with swing voters over the next three months, they're still coming.It's still going to happen. Yeah. So someone reached into the desk and found the Kamala book. Right.But I think where they've been fortunate is they had a really good rollout. They seemed to have a plan for making that transition much smoother. And then I also think they caught their opponents flat-footed, which Which is very, very surprising because somebody in that campaign should have spent the last month war gaming for what happens if they do switch.That's a really important point. When you say flat-footed, how did you see it? How did that manifest itself?For a few days, it seemed the focus remained on Joe Biden.From Republicans who came out to speak.Biden was slowly going into the rear view mirror, or at least should have been. Yes, I think he still remains an issue because he's still the incumbent President, but they were still focused on Biden for several days.The thing that surprised me was the lack of a very disciplined and uniform message. You really never get a second chance to make a first impression. The message that they wanted to send to surrogates, Republican, pundits, the activist base, GOP chairs around the country, it was not very clear, and you needed to be really clear. That's what a good campaign can do. I just felt that's why they got caught a little flat-footed.One of the challenges they faced, to use Kevin's analogy about the billion-dollar startup, is then you're also dealing with a series of small businesses. As Kevin knows, working in house leadership, You try and put a message out there that your members will follow, and you send them documents, and they may look at them, they may not look at them, they may use them or not use them, even if they've looked at them. You're talking about 50 state chairs. You're talking about members of Congress who different incentives in this process, and that makes it messy as well. When there's not the discipline from the top, it's very easy for that to get lost as you go further down the chain.That's one of the most important responsibilities of being senior staff on a campaign is that There may be 10 or 12 of you that are deputized to carry the message of the campaign, including, obviously, the principal and the VP. Everybody takes their cue from those folks. When they're off message, it does have a... It gets a little long. It has diluting effect all the way down to- And we have Republican members who are incentivized to not necessarily be on message.We'll get to that in a moment. So that compounds on that problem. We're going to take a quick break, and then we'll have more with Kevin and Doug in a moment. Hi, I'm Angie Hicks, co founder of Angie. And one thing I've learned is that you buy a house, but you make it a home. Because with every fix, update, and renovation, it becomes a little more your own. So you need all your jobs done well. For nearly 30 years, Angie has helped millions of homeowners hire skilled pros for the projects that matter, from plumbing to electrical, roof repair to deck upgrades. So leave it to the pros who will get your jobs done well. Hire high-quality certified pros at angie. Com.They say opposites attract. That's why the Sleep Number Smart Bed is the best bed for couples. You can each choose what's right for you whenever you like. You like a bed that feels firm but they want soft? Soft. Sleep Number does that. You want to sleep cooler while they like to feel warm? Sleep Number does disrespecting a woman, specifically. This is a gendered insult, and especially with her, the way they talk about her past relationships. This conversation about her relationship with Willy Brown in California is very prominent online. I don't think it's academic, Kevin.Oh, I am arguing that you need to get out of online conversations. I'm arguing that you need to get out of conversations that have, at their core, a divisive nature. I'm saying that the campaigns focus, if they want to win this campaign, and this goes for both campaigns, is to focus on the issues that swing voters care about right now. The number one issue they care about is the economy and how inflation is affecting their home budgets, how the housing lock-in effect right now is- But is this your Romney showing?Is that a real thing you can do in 2024?It should be. That's the thing is that I think in 2024, everybody gets baited into these conversations that are about motivating the base or driving a hard contrast between the right and the left when the big middle is going to matter in this election and that's how you win. It's talking to those voters. Doug High.I disagree as a journalist, but you're a message person. Do you see what I'm talking about, first of all? When you're watching cable news or whatever, I'm watching people step into bear traps.They're jumping into bear traps quite often.But that's a bad strategy, am I right? Yeah.In political- Is it so bad? I feel like as a black American, I have listened to the political discourse.People walking into bear traps This is really great content. It's really bad persuasive messaging for a swing voters.But the political discourse has been, things have gone too far. Things have gone too far. We shouldn't be talking about race all the time. We shouldn't be talking about gender all the time. There was a real, maybe it was only content, but there was certainly an audience for the idea that things had somehow gone too far and that diversity, equity, and inclusion was the villain of the story, was not a default value good, and that the candidate who could wind that back and speak common sense was going to win the day. Did I make that up?No, but welcome to the real world of American politics and American communications in the age that we're in now.I think there's the- Do you think that is not as meaningful for a candidate to carry?I think as a campaign, reporter, I'm probably parsing that too much, but it felt like two separate messages, which was like, Hey, she's a prosecutor who was really tough. She was especially tough on you, Black people. But then also she wasn't that really tough. She was actually really weak. This is the moment where I hear mixed messaging or unsettled messaging from the candidate himself.I would agree that that's mixed messaging and competing messages as well. I think the thing that I've always noticed about Donald Trump is it goes back to that old adage, When you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail.But are you thinking that's just advisor on Mitt Romney's presidential campaigns. That's it for this episode of The Assignment, a production of CNN Audio. This episode was produced by Dan Blum. Our senior producer is Matt Martinez. Dan Dizula is our technical director, and the executive producer of CNN Audio is Steve Ligtai. We had support from Haley Thomas, Alex Manasari, Robert Mather's, John Dianora, Lenny Steinhart, Bart, Jameis Andress, Nicole Pessereau, and Lisa Namerou. Special thanks, as always, to Katie Hinman and Wendy Brundage. I'm Adi Cornish. Thank you for listening. I'm Oprah Winfrey, and I am delighted to introduce you to my podcast, Super Soul Conversations.You can listen to some of the most universal, powerful life lessons. I hope these conversations will help illuminate your path to all that you've been meaning to be and all that you were meant to be. You want to feel better about your life, where you're headed? Subscribe to my Super Soul Conversations on Apple Podcasts and begin the journey to your best self.

own message that he's the only one that can win, and it's going to be really hard.

Doug, for you as a messaging person, were you like, Biden could never come out of this, or I'm not shocked?

Well, first, I think Kevin stole a memo that I wrote for our clients. I said 96 hours. Watch Biden over the next 96 hours to see. Whenever a decision like this is made, it's always a shock, even if it's not a total surprise. What I was looking for was the two things, so I'll slightly argue against myself. Sunday seemed to be the perfect time for Biden to do it. If he were going to do it, that would be when I would expect him to. But there was also a push and pull on this. Nancy Pelosi had essentially said, I think Kevin would agree, a lot of respect that we have for Nancy Pelosi and her political prowess and skills. She basically was saying, We're going to do this the nice way, or If you don't go, Joe, we're going to do this the not nice way. That was coming on Monday, 9:00 AM. It wasn't a surprise that Nancy Pelosi was all over TV more than she usually was. That told me there might be some movement, but what happened was still essentially unprecedented, so it is still a surprise.

That was the part that really also helped me up was having worked on these things. They are so, so hard, you're not returning a rental car. This is, again, a multi-year organization with multi-billions of dollars behind it. The idea that you can just take one candidate, switch it out. One of the things that I found annoying was watching all the punditry and the reporting not really take stock of just how hard that is.

There was a lot of flippant, all they have to do is if they only just did this.

It was all coming from people who've never even been close to a presidential campaign. So for me, it was like, I think just people need to take stock of how hard it is. And here's the I think. It's been a really good week, week and a half. The tension and a lot of the challenges that still remain with a campaign switching candidates as quickly and then having to develop a profile with swing voters over the next three months, they're still coming.

It's still going to happen. Yeah. So someone reached into the desk and found the Kamala book. Right.

But I think where they've been fortunate is they had a really good rollout. They seemed to have a plan for making that transition much smoother. And then I also think they caught their opponents flat-footed, which Which is very, very surprising because somebody in that campaign should have spent the last month war gaming for what happens if they do switch.

That's a really important point. When you say flat-footed, how did you see it? How did that manifest itself?

For a few days, it seemed the focus remained on Joe Biden.

From Republicans who came out to speak.

Biden was slowly going into the rear view mirror, or at least should have been. Yes, I think he still remains an issue because he's still the incumbent President, but they were still focused on Biden for several days.

The thing that surprised me was the lack of a very disciplined and uniform message. You really never get a second chance to make a first impression. The message that they wanted to send to surrogates, Republican, pundits, the activist base, GOP chairs around the country, it was not very clear, and you needed to be really clear. That's what a good campaign can do. I just felt that's why they got caught a little flat-footed.

One of the challenges they faced, to use Kevin's analogy about the billion-dollar startup, is then you're also dealing with a series of small businesses. As Kevin knows, working in house leadership, You try and put a message out there that your members will follow, and you send them documents, and they may look at them, they may not look at them, they may use them or not use them, even if they've looked at them. You're talking about 50 state chairs. You're talking about members of Congress who different incentives in this process, and that makes it messy as well. When there's not the discipline from the top, it's very easy for that to get lost as you go further down the chain.

That's one of the most important responsibilities of being senior staff on a campaign is that There may be 10 or 12 of you that are deputized to carry the message of the campaign, including, obviously, the principal and the VP. Everybody takes their cue from those folks. When they're off message, it does have a... It gets a little long. It has diluting effect all the way down to- And we have Republican members who are incentivized to not necessarily be on message.

We'll get to that in a moment. So that compounds on that problem. We're going to take a quick break, and then we'll have more with Kevin and Doug in a moment. Hi, I'm Angie Hicks, co founder of Angie. And one thing I've learned is that you buy a house, but you make it a home. Because with every fix, update, and renovation, it becomes a little more your own. So you need all your jobs done well. For nearly 30 years, Angie has helped millions of homeowners hire skilled pros for the projects that matter, from plumbing to electrical, roof repair to deck upgrades. So leave it to the pros who will get your jobs done well. Hire high-quality certified pros at angie. Com.

They say opposites attract. That's why the Sleep Number Smart Bed is the best bed for couples. You can each choose what's right for you whenever you like. You like a bed that feels firm but they want soft? Soft. Sleep Number does that. You want to sleep cooler while they like to feel warm? Sleep Number does disrespecting a woman, specifically. This is a gendered insult, and especially with her, the way they talk about her past relationships. This conversation about her relationship with Willy Brown in California is very prominent online. I don't think it's academic, Kevin.Oh, I am arguing that you need to get out of online conversations. I'm arguing that you need to get out of conversations that have, at their core, a divisive nature. I'm saying that the campaigns focus, if they want to win this campaign, and this goes for both campaigns, is to focus on the issues that swing voters care about right now. The number one issue they care about is the economy and how inflation is affecting their home budgets, how the housing lock-in effect right now is- But is this your Romney showing?Is that a real thing you can do in 2024?It should be. That's the thing is that I think in 2024, everybody gets baited into these conversations that are about motivating the base or driving a hard contrast between the right and the left when the big middle is going to matter in this election and that's how you win. It's talking to those voters. Doug High.I disagree as a journalist, but you're a message person. Do you see what I'm talking about, first of all? When you're watching cable news or whatever, I'm watching people step into bear traps.They're jumping into bear traps quite often.But that's a bad strategy, am I right? Yeah.In political- Is it so bad? I feel like as a black American, I have listened to the political discourse.People walking into bear traps This is really great content. It's really bad persuasive messaging for a swing voters.But the political discourse has been, things have gone too far. Things have gone too far. We shouldn't be talking about race all the time. We shouldn't be talking about gender all the time. There was a real, maybe it was only content, but there was certainly an audience for the idea that things had somehow gone too far and that diversity, equity, and inclusion was the villain of the story, was not a default value good, and that the candidate who could wind that back and speak common sense was going to win the day. Did I make that up?No, but welcome to the real world of American politics and American communications in the age that we're in now.I think there's the- Do you think that is not as meaningful for a candidate to carry?I think as a campaign, reporter, I'm probably parsing that too much, but it felt like two separate messages, which was like, Hey, she's a prosecutor who was really tough. She was especially tough on you, Black people. But then also she wasn't that really tough. She was actually really weak. This is the moment where I hear mixed messaging or unsettled messaging from the candidate himself.I would agree that that's mixed messaging and competing messages as well. I think the thing that I've always noticed about Donald Trump is it goes back to that old adage, When you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail.But are you thinking that's just advisor on Mitt Romney's presidential campaigns. That's it for this episode of The Assignment, a production of CNN Audio. This episode was produced by Dan Blum. Our senior producer is Matt Martinez. Dan Dizula is our technical director, and the executive producer of CNN Audio is Steve Ligtai. We had support from Haley Thomas, Alex Manasari, Robert Mather's, John Dianora, Lenny Steinhart, Bart, Jameis Andress, Nicole Pessereau, and Lisa Namerou. Special thanks, as always, to Katie Hinman and Wendy Brundage. I'm Adi Cornish. Thank you for listening. I'm Oprah Winfrey, and I am delighted to introduce you to my podcast, Super Soul Conversations.You can listen to some of the most universal, powerful life lessons. I hope these conversations will help illuminate your path to all that you've been meaning to be and all that you were meant to be. You want to feel better about your life, where you're headed? Subscribe to my Super Soul Conversations on Apple Podcasts and begin the journey to your best self.

disrespecting a woman, specifically. This is a gendered insult, and especially with her, the way they talk about her past relationships. This conversation about her relationship with Willy Brown in California is very prominent online. I don't think it's academic, Kevin.

Oh, I am arguing that you need to get out of online conversations. I'm arguing that you need to get out of conversations that have, at their core, a divisive nature. I'm saying that the campaigns focus, if they want to win this campaign, and this goes for both campaigns, is to focus on the issues that swing voters care about right now. The number one issue they care about is the economy and how inflation is affecting their home budgets, how the housing lock-in effect right now is- But is this your Romney showing?

Is that a real thing you can do in 2024?

It should be. That's the thing is that I think in 2024, everybody gets baited into these conversations that are about motivating the base or driving a hard contrast between the right and the left when the big middle is going to matter in this election and that's how you win. It's talking to those voters. Doug High.

I disagree as a journalist, but you're a message person. Do you see what I'm talking about, first of all? When you're watching cable news or whatever, I'm watching people step into bear traps.

They're jumping into bear traps quite often.

But that's a bad strategy, am I right? Yeah.

In political- Is it so bad? I feel like as a black American, I have listened to the political discourse.

People walking into bear traps This is really great content. It's really bad persuasive messaging for a swing voters.

But the political discourse has been, things have gone too far. Things have gone too far. We shouldn't be talking about race all the time. We shouldn't be talking about gender all the time. There was a real, maybe it was only content, but there was certainly an audience for the idea that things had somehow gone too far and that diversity, equity, and inclusion was the villain of the story, was not a default value good, and that the candidate who could wind that back and speak common sense was going to win the day. Did I make that up?

No, but welcome to the real world of American politics and American communications in the age that we're in now.

I think there's the- Do you think that is not as meaningful for a candidate to carry?

I think as a campaign, reporter, I'm probably parsing that too much, but it felt like two separate messages, which was like, Hey, she's a prosecutor who was really tough. She was especially tough on you, Black people. But then also she wasn't that really tough. She was actually really weak. This is the moment where I hear mixed messaging or unsettled messaging from the candidate himself.I would agree that that's mixed messaging and competing messages as well. I think the thing that I've always noticed about Donald Trump is it goes back to that old adage, When you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail.But are you thinking that's just advisor on Mitt Romney's presidential campaigns. That's it for this episode of The Assignment, a production of CNN Audio. This episode was produced by Dan Blum. Our senior producer is Matt Martinez. Dan Dizula is our technical director, and the executive producer of CNN Audio is Steve Ligtai. We had support from Haley Thomas, Alex Manasari, Robert Mather's, John Dianora, Lenny Steinhart, Bart, Jameis Andress, Nicole Pessereau, and Lisa Namerou. Special thanks, as always, to Katie Hinman and Wendy Brundage. I'm Adi Cornish. Thank you for listening. I'm Oprah Winfrey, and I am delighted to introduce you to my podcast, Super Soul Conversations.You can listen to some of the most universal, powerful life lessons. I hope these conversations will help illuminate your path to all that you've been meaning to be and all that you were meant to be. You want to feel better about your life, where you're headed? Subscribe to my Super Soul Conversations on Apple Podcasts and begin the journey to your best self.

reporter, I'm probably parsing that too much, but it felt like two separate messages, which was like, Hey, she's a prosecutor who was really tough. She was especially tough on you, Black people. But then also she wasn't that really tough. She was actually really weak. This is the moment where I hear mixed messaging or unsettled messaging from the candidate himself.

I would agree that that's mixed messaging and competing messages as well. I think the thing that I've always noticed about Donald Trump is it goes back to that old adage, When you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

But are you thinking that's just advisor on Mitt Romney's presidential campaigns. That's it for this episode of The Assignment, a production of CNN Audio. This episode was produced by Dan Blum. Our senior producer is Matt Martinez. Dan Dizula is our technical director, and the executive producer of CNN Audio is Steve Ligtai. We had support from Haley Thomas, Alex Manasari, Robert Mather's, John Dianora, Lenny Steinhart, Bart, Jameis Andress, Nicole Pessereau, and Lisa Namerou. Special thanks, as always, to Katie Hinman and Wendy Brundage. I'm Adi Cornish. Thank you for listening. I'm Oprah Winfrey, and I am delighted to introduce you to my podcast, Super Soul Conversations.You can listen to some of the most universal, powerful life lessons. I hope these conversations will help illuminate your path to all that you've been meaning to be and all that you were meant to be. You want to feel better about your life, where you're headed? Subscribe to my Super Soul Conversations on Apple Podcasts and begin the journey to your best self.

advisor on Mitt Romney's presidential campaigns. That's it for this episode of The Assignment, a production of CNN Audio. This episode was produced by Dan Blum. Our senior producer is Matt Martinez. Dan Dizula is our technical director, and the executive producer of CNN Audio is Steve Ligtai. We had support from Haley Thomas, Alex Manasari, Robert Mather's, John Dianora, Lenny Steinhart, Bart, Jameis Andress, Nicole Pessereau, and Lisa Namerou. Special thanks, as always, to Katie Hinman and Wendy Brundage. I'm Adi Cornish. Thank you for listening. I'm Oprah Winfrey, and I am delighted to introduce you to my podcast, Super Soul Conversations.

You can listen to some of the most universal, powerful life lessons. I hope these conversations will help illuminate your path to all that you've been meaning to be and all that you were meant to be. You want to feel better about your life, where you're headed? Subscribe to my Super Soul Conversations on Apple Podcasts and begin the journey to your best self.