Trump's former lawyer, Rudy Giuliani, facing a potentially ruinous trial of his own tonight as he could be forced to pay up to $43 million in damages to the two former Georgia election workers, mother and daughter, Ruby Freeman and Shay Moss, you know them well, who were simply doing their jobs back in 2020 when Giuliani falsely accused them of voter fraud, trying to demonize them as symbols of a rigged election that wasn't rigged. He claimed that they were acting suspiciously. And, yeah, I'm being serious now, saying like, they were acting like drug dealers, accusations that led to them being harassed by people who even showed up at their home. Maria Giuliani has already been found liable for defaming these two women. But now we are in the penalty phase of this case. This is how day one went.

Do you regret what you did to. Of course I don't regret. I told the truth. They were engaged in changing votes. There's no proof of that. Oh, you're damn right there is. Stay tuned.

There is no proof of that. It's not true. It wasn't true then, it's not true now. Here tonight is someone with the truth, Andrew Kurtzman, who knows Rudy Giuliani extremely well, having followed him for three decades as a political reporter and the author of Giuliani the Rise and Tragic Fall of America's mayor. I mean, what do you make of the defiance that you see of him coming out of court as he did today?

It's absolutely extraordinary. I mean, it's very characteristic of Giuliani, who never admits fault in anything, but seeing what he's facing in terms of damages and sticking to that allegation is really something. It's really something.

I mean, he is about to potentially have to pay a lot of money that we know he doesn't have. His attorney today was saying that $43 million would be the civil equivalent of the death penalty. But I wonder, as someone who's covered him for as long as you have, what you make of the fact that.

He'S being held accountable for what he.

Well, you know, I think Giuliani is finally paying the price for a lifetime of character assassination. Destroying reputations is what Rudy Giuliani does. He did it as prosecutor. He did it as mayor. In my book, I write about an election campaign in catholic school when he stood up in an audience and eviscerated a candidate for senior class president. I mean, this is what Giuliani is and what he's, you know, in some ways, the public when he was mayor kind of appreciated it. I mean, he took over New York City as a mayor when New York was in decline. His predecessor was kind of a passive presence, and Giuliani was a fighter. And the New York Times endorsed him for reelection in 1997. They called him a human hand grenade. Right. There was something about him that people.

They meant it as a compliment.

They meant it as a compliment. Absolutely.

And now the pin has been, well.

You know, Donald Trump certainly liked those qualities in Giuliani. And the problem now in this trial is that he's under a microscope because they lost the election. And it was clearly easy to determine that Giuliani was wrong about this. And now he's paying the price.

But he's still defiant and coming out with his advisor there. But I've also noticed, just as someone who has covered this world and used to see Rudy Giuliani at the White House all the time, he seems very.

Isolated from this life that he used to have.

Sure. I mean, he was also broke, right. At one point, right after 911, his consulting firm earned $100 million in five years. I mean, he owned, was it seven houses and eleven country club memberships. I mean, he was on top of the world. Fast forward. He's selling his apartment as his last, I guess, asset, trying to stave off this. Trying to stave off bankruptcy.

So what does it mean if he.

Gets hit with $43 million? I mean, even half of that.

Right. I think he'll have to declare bankruptcy. I mean, he's got ten civil suits filed against him right now. He's been indicted. He's an unindicted co conspirator, conspirator in DC. He's just thinking of Rudy overwhelmed.

Rudy Giuliani having to file bankruptcy, though, is kind of remarkable to watch the.

Political world, to know what he used.

To, to, you know, it's one of the great rise and fall stories of our lifetime.

Andrew Kurtzman, as someone who's covered it, I mean, it's a dramatic story. Thank you for that. Sure.