This is going to delay this whole thing for voters. It's a relief, in a way, for Trump. But voters, I mean, is it all just baked in?

Well, I think the extraordinary thing is that Donald Trump didn't need to turn up at the appeal hearing today, and he did because he's really treating it like a fundraiser. Let's not forget that after he was found guilty of 34 counts, felony counts, after the Stormy Daniels trial, he raised 50 million million dollars. We know that he's not raising great amounts of money at the moment. He needs the attention. Kamala is in debate prep, and out he pops. What Donald Trump is really good at doing, which is getting attention for doing completely the opposite of what a regular person would do. It's worked for him, and he's doing it again.

Yeah, he showed up. He said he was going to take questions, didn't take questions, and then spent most of the time reciting the allegations against him, which is a baffling choice, attacking his lawyers and also attacking the women who accused him of all these things. Listen.

I never met the woman other than this picture, which could have been AI-generated. I don't know. She wrote a book and she made a ridiculous story up. I did nothing with her. Never touched this woman.

Can I just jump in? What I absolutely What I really love about that shot is the picture on his lawyer's faces because they have no idea what he's going to say next. Then he criticizes them at some point. He says, I'm disappointed in my legal team, and they're standing right behind him. It's astonishing behavior, and it's incredibly effective television.

I was going to say it's must watch TV.

It's must watch television, yeah. It's exactly what it is every day.

It is like watching a train wreck in a way because it's It's not leading to anything positive as far as I can tell. Can you see something that's good that comes out of this for Trump other than what Joanna just pointed out, which I think is very legitimate, the attention, maybe the money. I don't know how that's going to work out.

I think Joanna is right in the sense that if you go back to 2016, what we've learned, and I don't think the media has learned this at all, is that former President Trump likes to be the center of attention, right? He will do things to be that part center of attention so that the cable news is talking about it, so that maybe broadcast maybe talks about it for 30 to 45 seconds. But the real conversation going on with America are pocketbook issues that's not being addressed. He's almost winning the conversation by, A, we're talking about the scandal of the day, not talking about the issues that matter, and B, the issues that actually matter to the voters that they're thinking about and their subset of what's the most important issue to me. Trump's already having that conversation. They've already validated his position.

I don't think that that's winning. Bill Clinton made a speech at the I've had a convention, I think, really hit the nail on the head. He said, The next time Trump speaks, don't count the lies, count the I's. And Trump is all about, I, it's all about me. It's all about my agenda, the people who are against me. It's all about everybody in the world is out to get me. And people are tired of that. We've had nine years of Donald Trump's I statements. It's time for the President of the United States to focus on us. It's time for the President to talk about the policy, talk about jobs and health care and housing and college education, and talk What about fixing a criminal justice system? Talk about all these things.

Something tells me, Brian, I don't think you'd necessarily disagree with that. That seems to me like basic politics. You talk about the people, not about yourself.

Oh, absolutely. But I also remind people, this race is a jump ball. So whatever the criticism you have of the talk about eyes, it's a jump ball in the swing states. It's within the margin of error in nearly all the swing states. So the talk about eyes is clearly working. The victimization of politics where he's the victim of what's taking place is clearly working. Don't discredit that. And while we're having this conversation about non-policy-related issues that matter to the American people, somebody's going to the gas station and paying 40% more than what they paid four years ago. Somebody's buying four million.

I have no idea what jump ball is. That's 30% more expensive. What is jump ball? When you say it's jump ball, what on earth does that mean?

Within the margin of errors.

Okay.

I somewhat agree with you in that.

We'll have this conversation.

That's a sports metaphor.

Like a basketball. It's fixed, right? No, that's a jump shot. A jump ball is when you throw the ball the air and they tip it.

I thought it was some sporting metaphor.

In the break. I agree with you that in 2016, when the Access Hollywood tapes came out, many of us thought that that would be determining of Donald Trump's campaign, and it wasn't. I think, even though I don't think it's a good strategy, I think what Donald Trump is doing is like, It didn't take me out then, so it's not going to take me out now. That's why he continues to do it. But what I think everyone is missing in this moment is we're We're talking about this because the sentencing was delayed. Donald Trump has built this storyline that the system is against him, that they're so political. Instead of us talking about whether or not he should be doing it, we should be rallying and saying, I think he should have been sentenced. But the judge said, I don't want the appearance of politics to be played in this. So the system actually works yet again for Donald Trump in ways that it didn't work for the average American.

Can I throw in? It's not my counter opinion, but this is from Karl Rove, who takes a bit of a different view of it, a different way of looking at what happened with the sentencing today.

If he had gone forward with this, it would have, ironically enough, to serve the interest of Donald Trump. Donald Trump has risen in the polls. The more the people have reacted negatively to his treatment in the courtroom, he would have potentially gone after Donald Trump in his verdict, and the reaction of the American people might have been wholly negative on it and helped advance the cause of Donald Trump in the election.

That's exactly my point. God, help me. I'm agreeing with Karl Rove. Dick Cheney and Karl Rove in one night. The early 2000s are back. But that's what I mean.

How did freeze over? We've established that.

But if we were to sentence it, it would have played into Donald Trump's book. Instead of letting him continue with this narrative that everyone is out to get him, the system actually said, We want to let the American people decide. Even if as a a political person, I was like, I don't think that's the way it should have gone, but it did.

But even when it went in his favor, what was fascinating was he suddenly started attacking his lawyers. Because he can't help them. Right with his lawyers there. It's fascinating.

Because he's got to attack somebody.

He's always got to be a victim. I think this is going to be a race that's going to be win or loss on the margins. I do think that there is an effective message undercurring to what Trump is ultimately trying to say. It's not just necessarily about the establishment or the legal system or the President or the vice President is after just him. There's about 40% of the country who believes they're also after them and their values and their culture and their way of life. I don't think that should be dismissed. Many of those voters do look at Donald Trump as this mechanism to achieve some type of a restorative action for their place.