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In 2007, Mitch McDonald became Senate Republican leader, and ever since, he's created this mythic reputation as a ruthless tactician. If he didn't like a piece of legislation, he knew how to get rid of it. He even gave himself a nickname, the Grim reaper. Then came Donald Trump, and McDonald grudgingly endorsed Trump in 2016. But over time, their shaky truce has raid. What are going to be the consequences of that for the rest of us? Well, we're going to talk about that with CNN's Manu Raju and Lauren Fox. They are congressional reporters, and Manu is also the host of Sunday's Inside politics. Welcome to The Assignment.

Hey, good morning.

Lauren Fox, how are you? Hi.

Thanks for having us.

I knew this was going to be the best time to talk to you because from covering Congress, we know that Monday mornings, they're not there. Exactly. Exactly. They get in very late. This is the best time to catch you guys. They basically fly in from wherever they've come from. They move super slow because I call Senate the world's oldest high school. Then you don't learn anything until Tuesday lunch.

This is a little It's a little bit different, though, because they've been in session all weekend to move on this very deal that put McDonald in hot water with this conference, and they actually are coming in to vote at noon. It's actually a little bit different than them.

Starting school early. I like it. Getting up early. Let me give people the background on the deal. Basically, there's supposed to be resources for the war in Ukraine. People also want to send more funding to Israel. Biden, I guess, thought that he could bundle this together with also maybe, was it funding for Taiwan at one point? Yes. It was going to be basically a democracy-supporting, war-supporting bill. Then there was a Republican demand that there would be no more money for any this stuff unless Democrats funded an increase in border security and made some policy changes, and then they got their wish, and then it fell apart. Which of you two better knows how it fell apart?

I think this bill fell apart almost from the beginning because the reality was House Republicans set up this process where they said, We probably aren't going to accept anything from the Senate unless it looks almost exactly like this hard right bill that we passed on immigration. And yet- Last spring.

Senator Mitch McDonald had gotten one of his guys to go in a room with them and negotiate. James Lankford. And, Manu, what was he supposed to do? Was he ever really supposed to negotiate in good faith? Is that too cynical to ask?

No, he did negotiate in good faith. I mean, they negotiated for nearly five months. I mean, they went around the clock. They negotiated over the Christmas holidays. They were trying to put together a pretty hard-fought compromise.

And the Republicans actually got significant concessions in this deal. The Democrats really didn't get a whole lot. The Democrats didn't get the things that they wanted, say, back in 2013, to deal with the undocumented immigrants in the country, and Back then in 2013, they had provisions to give a pathway to citizenship for the 11 million people here illegally. That was not even part of this negotiation. This was all about changes to border policy, to actually give the administration, give the United States more authority to require the United States to essentially turn away migrants in between ports of entry if crossings reach a certain threshold. That is much different than what Democrats were willing to give into. But they ultimately did because their big concession that they wanted was money for Ukraine. That is it. I mean, Mitch McDonald was a staunch advocate of giving money to Ukraine. He didn't really even want a big border deal. That was not his big push. It was his conference's big push. Their demand of changes to border policy. Ultimately, he agreed with them and said, Okay, let's cut a deal.

Yeah. Did he sound a little bit defeated, right? Donald Trump comes out against this bill. Everyone starts talking about how basically it's like Republicans don't want to hand Democrats any legislative win, especially on immigration in an election year.

I think one thing people don't necessarily understand about McDonald, if you're not in the building every day is his style, which is to let his conference have a robust debate, to let his conference lead on a lot of these issues. Then he takes in what they're saying and makes decisions based on that. I think what you saw last week- But does he bring down the hammer on them?

I'm trying to compare him to a Pelosi or something. That's really not his style. How does he actually get people to do what he wants?

He usually is just in the same place as the conference. I think, honestly, that is typically how I've seen McDonald operate so successfully is he doesn't make rash decisions, typically. He knows where the conference is, and he makes decisions based on that intelligence that he's gathered. He talks to the members a lot. They have these closed-door lunches often. But one thing that I thought was fascinating about McDonald is that this play on immigration is really similar to the one I saw on gun control, where he basically picks a deputy who he knows has conservative credentials within the conference. When he's serious about them reaching a potential bipartisan deal, he then gives his blessing. That's what he did with John Corden on guns. They were successful. This is what he was trying to do with James Lankford on immigration, and that didn't work out.

Why didn't it work out? Because not only didn't it work out, but you had Ted Cruz, Mike Lee at this press conference, basically taking shots at McDonald's leadership.

Senator Cruz, is it time for Mitch McDonald to go?

I think it is. A Republican leader should actually lead this conference and should advance the priorities of Republicans.

Yeah, look, I mean, immigration is one of those issues that Washington has simply not been able to resolve in decades. I mean, we've seen efforts But why did they feel it was okay to take shots at him?

Because this is, as you said, this bill, an immigration bill, falls apart almost cyclically every few years. But they just took a chance to needle him.

Look, this is a shift. I mean, there's no question about it.

I mean, in many years past, I've been covering, you know, Mitch McDonald for two decades now, and he is, including his rise to become Republican leader.

His power has long been keeping his Conference united.

That has been an increasingly difficult proposition, particularly in the last couple of years, and certainly in the aftermath of Donald Trump, as they've tried to do some work with Joe Biden, as Trump has ascended in the party. Once again, that has been a change here.

The change, too, has been that there are a growing number, small but growing, number of members within the conference who are not afraid to challenge him. That started at the end of the last midterms when the Republicans were unsuccessful in taking back the Senate despite everything indicating that they could take back the Senate.

There was a lot of finger-pointing that happened in the immediate aftermath of that.

Then for the first time in McDonald's tenure as leader, remember, he's the longest-serving party leader in the history of the United States in the Senate. The first time ever, he was challenged for his spot by Senator Rick Scott. Mcdonald had far more votes than Scott. He became elected leader once again. But that showed you that there was an uneasiness. There was anger. There was opposition among some quarters within the Senate GOP to take on McDonal.

You said he's the longest-is he tied? Is he officially the longest?

No, he's number one. Number one on either party, longest serving Senate leader either. That is a significant accomplishment and something that he wanted to get very, very badly, but he has that record now. But you're seeing, which often happens towards the end of someone's tenure, that there is dissension within the ranks.

Whoa, you're saying end of his tenure. We're going to get to that. I heard that. We're going to get to that in a minute. Sure. He's yet another leader in his '80s. We just interviewed one on this show, Jim Clibern. People are talking about Biden, so my long-running rant against the gerontocracy. This is another leader in their '80s. When McDonald has health problems, they're super public. He had a concussion last year in a broken rib, had an incident, he healed up. Then twice last summer on camera in front of reporters, he literally froze up, stopped speaking halfway through a sentence or didn't answer a question. That sparked a whole lot of chatter, even about his cognitive abilities. Has his health made him more vulnerable to political challenge?

I think definitely it has. The reality is when you talk to some of these members who are openly calling for him to be challenged, one of the things that comes up is those health issues. When I've talked to senators about this, they often will point out this miscalculation in their view on immigration, and then they'll pivot to last summer. I think that that shows you they feel like this is a moment where the public might be paying attention, and they do have an opportunity to be more vocal.

Manu, are they smelling weakness. What's going on?

Yeah, I mean, I think that that's part of it.

Which is to not say that I think he's weak. I'm just saying that right now because I'm afraid of him. Like, he'll pop out of a closet or something. But I think- Yeah. Is there a political sixth sense and people start to circle and get ideas?

Yeah. And I'm not sure it's about his health as it is much about where he is in his standing within the party right now.

And you cannot discount what that means about him versus Donald Trump because it has so much to do with the fallout of him and Donald Trump and the fact that Trump has been bashing him for months on the campaign trail.

This, of course, as you well know, already started right after January sixth.

Mitch McDonald voted to acquit him in a second impeachment trial over January sixth, but then went to the floor and absolutely eviscerated Trump and called him morally and practically responsible for the attack on the Capitol. And that has led to a feud. The two have not spoken in more than three years.

And the Trump wing of the party wants McDonald out. And there are members who are aligned with that wing of the party that are not afraid to speak out in no small part because the leader of their party, Donald Trump, is the one who is leading the charge against McDonald. So that has really put him in a difficult spot with some of those members. They don't represent a majority, but they are outspoken, and they do have a loud voice, a megaphone.

That's Moniraju and Lauren Fox. They cover Congress for CNN. We'll be back in a moment.

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I'm Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN's Chief Medical Correspondent. This week on Chasing Life.

This is a big deal.

I mean, the companies have been trying to do this for so long, and they just really haven't succeeded with medicines. That's CNN Medical Correspondent, Meg Tarroll. She has been following the rise of new anti-obesity medications. The evidence might suggest they didn't anticipate this because they have not been able to keep up with demand. Listen to Chasing Life wherever you get your podcasts.

We're back talking about Mitch McDonald. So earlier, I talked about this term, the Grim reaper. And this is something that McDonald actually said in 2019 before a crowd, and he was referring to the Green New deal and Medicare for All. And he says, So think of me as the Grim reaper, the guy who's going to make sure that socialism doesn't land on the president's desk. This is in line with how we think of him from the Obama years, which, Mono, you and I, I think that's when we met, running around on the hill, basically trying to figure out what the Senate would say no to. It was like this futile. I mean, I thought it seemed futile. Mono, did you think there was ever a pathway?

It was a wall. The futile and the Senate go hand in hand.

Yeah, exactly. But you mentioned this beef between McDonald and Trump and that the roots of it are the Capitol riot. But how has he managed to withstand Trump? Mccarthy went sincophant. He was like, I'm going to go. I'm going to be this guy's best friend. I'm totally on board, et cetera. Then Mitt Romney is like, Oh, extremely hostile and just the people who are just like, Forget this whole thing. How does he manage the relationship?

Yeah, the evolution between O'Reilly McDonald and Trump is just a really window into the Republican Party writ large in some ways. He didn't embrace him when he ran in 2016, ultimately endorsed him when he won the nomination, sidestepped any controversy that Donald Trump made.

Every time he opened his mouth while he was President, he was essential in getting Donald Trump's key achievements through, helped him usher through the massive tax cut package. That really is Trump's crowning legislative achievement, pushing through three Supreme Court committees.

You cannot discount that That is McDonald's role in all of that.

Right. Just to underscore that and pause, I feel like we should do that every once in a while. These are things that fundamentally changed American life.

Yeah, and not just the Supreme Court, all the lower courts as well. That was a key priority for Trump.

But even our lives as people. Yes. These are legislate, whether it's the tax thing or Roe v Wade.

Mcdonald quickly and early on realized in his career that the judicial branch a powerful tool for ensuring that you got what you wanted when it came to legislation, because legislation gets challenged and it has to go through the courts. He very quickly and early on, seized on that.

He has said that one of his number one achievements while being Republican leader was keeping the Supreme Court seat vacant after Antonin Scalia died and preventing Barack Obama from filling the seat with Merrill Garland. In some ways, that may have helped Donald Trump win the presidency, energizing the conservative movement in a lot of ways to ensure that he can get a conservative on the bench. And he still campaigns on it. Absolutely. That had a humongous impact on the direction of the country. You can't discount that about everything that he did. But the day that the Electoral College certification happened in mid-December, that's when McDonald went to the Senate floor and said, Joe Biden was the victor here.

And that caused Donald Trump to lose his mind, go crazy.

He was furious about McDonald. And they have not spoken since that moment, since the day before McDonald made that speech on the floor and told him, I'm going to the floor to say that Joe Biden won the election, and Donald Trump would not have it.

We know what happened in the aftermath of all of that, of course.

I want to know how this affects the races in November from a slightly different perspective, which is what does it mean for our choices as voters? Who are the Republicans we're going to see out the world, right? Because they represent these different polls of the party. I know you guys were reporting that basically the eight House Republicans who voted to oust Speaker McCarthy, they're losing a lot of money, right? They're not fundraising the same way. All those things that McCarthy did for them, they don't have that now. So there's been an effect. When it comes to McDonald, though, what's the difference if you're a McDonald candidate versus a Trump candidate?

Well, McDonald is extremely powerful. I I mean, the Senate Leadership Fund has a reputation of being extremely impactful in Senate races across the country.

Does that just mean you raise a lot of money or that you have an infrastructure of volunteers and workers?

It means that you have an influx of money coming into your race, and that matters, right? I do think that McDonald also has been extremely influential in picking candidates. That has been something that he has really prioritized, in part because he knows that these guys come to the United States Senate, and then he has to lead them there. He also wants to make sure he gets the majority back. I see what you're saying.

There have been some Trump-back candidates that have lost.

Exactly. The other thing to keep in mind here is that last week, despite all of the chaos that was happening in the Senate, despite all of the pushback he was getting, at the end of the week, the announcement was, Larry Hogan is running for Senate. Suddenly this race that Democrats probably had in the bag is extremely competitive.

But a lot of these candidates, they will accept the money that's coming from Mitch McDonald's Superpact, the Senate Leadership Fund, that spends an enormous amount of money in Senate races.

It will be the biggest player in Senate races by far on the Republican side.

They will accept that financial backing, and then they'll bash him publicly because politically, that is good for them, especially with their base. I mean, look at just JD J.

Vance, for instance.

He won the Ohio Senate race last cycle, a difficult race. He was not running a particularly great campaign. Mcdonald's super PAC came in and just spent an absolute enormous sum of money. And that has consequences, deciding to spend money to help J. D. Vance, pulling back money from other states instead. Vance got over the finish line. Here's Vance now in the Senate on the opposite sides of McDonald on so many issues and joining some of these Senate Republicans and criticizing the Republican leader. It just shows you where the party is.

I'm not just that, did he also say he wouldn't certify the election if he was Trump's running mate?

Yeah, I mean, that was a whole different story about trying to position himself.

No, but that's significant, right? Because it's like coming from you were backed by McDonald, who was like, This was bad, but it doesn't… There's a changing of the guard here that I don't know how to process because I can't tell how much control McDonald still has culturally in the party.

Look, if you want to dive deeper into the JD Vans being in a window of all of it, he replaced Senator Rob Portman, who was one of the biggest backers of Ukraine in the Capitol, who cut the infrastructure deal that is what that McDonald supported, that is one of Joe Biden's crowning achievements that Donald Trump has opposed, that JD Vance opposes. So you're seeing just a shift within the party and it being more aligned with Donald Trump, which explains why in a lot of ways, Mitch McDonald is slowly on the outs within some elements of his conference.

I was always told as a baby reporter that the Senate was where things cooled, the tea cooled. Cooler heads would prevail there because they didn't have to run every two years, so they weren't like little mice trying to get little crumbs everywhere like the house because they're constantly having… Monu Don't laugh. You know what I mean.

It just it just remind me of House Mouse, Senate Mouse, which I read to my kids.

All right, we're going to put the link to that in the episode notes. That sounds amazing. But yeah, so the house is like, I I have to raise money. I have to be in commercials. I have to do all the things because in 18 months, I have to do this all over again. And the Senate guys were all tall and the ladies were really strong, and they were a little more chill because they had a few years and they had a buffer. But More and more people are saying that the Senate is turning into the House and that that is a big problem because it means what?

Well, senators are getting frustrated a bit because what they feel like is happening. I had this conversation with Senator Kevin Kramer on Friday night, actually, when the Senate was voting late. He made this point of it's really frustrating when it feels like there are people out there who are riling up the base and getting people upset over Ukraine aid and also are the same people who might privately understand the importance of it. All of these senators are getting briefings. All of these senators know what is at stake. But at the same time, it feels like for some of these members, this is a critical moment in history, and yet it's becoming such a political issue because of Donald Trump's influence that you have almost... It feels like no choice.

And Mitt Romney said the same thing, right, Monu? He was constantly outing people in his book of there's a front-facing guy, and then there's what they tell us. There's what they're telling the base, and then there's what they tell us in private. And that there are some people, more and more people are getting frustrated with dealing with that, with those two faces. Yeah.

I mean, look, that's really the story of the Trump era, right? I mean, there's so many Republicans who will say something privately about Trump and say that we don't want anything to do with him, and he is bad for our party, bad for the country, but will publicly support him. So that It's just the way it is. And it's nothing other than to do than the fact that it's the easier thing to do, to go along with the party, go along with the leader of the party, especially one who is not afraid to attack you publicly in very personal terms and make your life very complicated with it from within your own party, within your own base. Go along with it. Just swallow your pride, if you will, and do that. There are not an insignificant number of Senate Republicans, in particular, who feel that way.

An interesting illustration of this, to some extent, is last week, obviously, Cruz was out bashing McDonald very publicly, and this detail is in Monu and I's story. There was this interaction on Thursday between McDonald and Cruz on the Senate floor. It lasted a couple of minutes, and you saw McDonald with his typical hands together, nodding occasionally with a smile that was peaking out every once in a while. I really wanted to know what that conversation was about. A source told me that it was actually Cruz trying to mend fences a bit with McDonald. Now, McDonald and Cruz's offices declined to comment on the specificity of their conversation. Cruz's office saying that the conversations that he has with senators are But I do think that that shows you a little bit of that tension.

Yeah. Also, that's not saying that's not true. Exactly. Just in reporter speak, right? There's different kinds of denials.

And just to add, just getting back to the McDonald political aspect of it. Ted Cruz may be one of two Senate Republicans who might be vulnerable this year. Texas is a hard state for Democrats to pick up, but maybe he might need Mitch McDonald's support and his Super PAC to save the day if things get a little hairy for him later this year.

More than Trump?

Well, Cruz may need McDonald's financial backing, which is what is going to be, could be a reason why he's saying, Maybe those things I said publicly, maybe he should look back on that.

What I meant to say, what had happened was that's what we witnessed on the Senate floor. All right, so do either of you believe Mitch McDonald is still going to be leading the Senate Republicans in 2025?

I just never count Mitch McDonald out. I think it would be very hard to imagine him leading the Republicans by that time, especially if Trump is President. But I don't know, Monu, would you count Mitch McDonald out?

I would never count him out, but I really have a hard time seeing him being leader, whether it's Joe Biden or Donald Trump. It just this feels like the right time for him to step aside, given all the dynamics we've been discussing here and we've been reporting about the challenges in the party, the changing nature of his party, his health issues. I don't think he wants to be like some of these aging senators who are known for their health issues more than what they've done legislatively.

To me, it feels like the time for him, he recognizes that his political antenna is sharp enough that he knows it's time for him to step aside.

Now, again, I could be totally wrong. Lauren is right. You don't count him out. If they take back the majority, which is their favorite to do, maybe he'll be like, I want to give it another go. But the betting would probably be on him stepping aside.

I do think it'll be interesting. We talk about this a lot. I think this is one of the favorite parlor games of Senate reporters, which is who succeeds him.

Which is when you're just standing around the hallway.

Exactly. Who succeeds him. You have seen with this incident over Ukraine aid, that Cornyn and Thune are probably more in the same mold as McCano when it comes to this issue.

Let me fill this in for you. That's John Cornyn of Texas and John Thun of South Dakota, not North Dakota. There's also John Barrasso, which tells you how many men are in the Senate that these guys are called the Johns. The three Johns. The three Johns. But they all came up under him and have his same point of view, arguably, meaning we care about foreign aid. We think that it is not necessarily always a bad thing.

But Barrasso actually has been voting against this package. So we can feel it changing.

So we can feel it changing. But then the flip side is, could there be one of these new leaders from what we would call the MAGA set, right? Whether that be maybe what? Mike Lee? Manu, who else?

Yeah, there's really no one in that wing that would have the votes to become leader.

I mean, you know. You You told me this is not the House. This is not going to be.

I mean, it's still not the House. Yes, I think there are some L aspects of it that you could compare it to the way the House GOP is. But the senators are still... This is a relationship business. At the end of the day, some of those members in the MAGA wing, they don't really have the deepest relationships. Michael Lee doesn't have the deepest relationships. Ted Cruz doesn't have either. Neither does Rick Scott among members. The three Johns that we've been talking about are widely seen as the likely successors. Barrasso has lined up with Trump more than the rest. He does have his own re-election this year, and perhaps one reason why he has chosen to go that route, not to get knocked off in a Republican primary in Wyoming. But Thune has so many more apprehensions with Trump. He won't even endorse him yet. Cornyn just endorsed Trump. He has been concerned about Trump's electability in a general election.

But the relationships thing, I think, is important that you're underscoring because over in the House, Speaker Johnson, in a way, is suffering because he's never actually had to put together enough votes for a piece of legislation, right? There's no real relationships. Yeah. I mean, he's very- Those bills aren't working.

He's very new. It's one thing to be a rank and file member or But not just new.

He didn't even have the resume. The resume is not one of master fundraiser, master legislator.

100%. There is a skill to being the leader of your party, and there's a reason it takes people so long to achieve it because you have to build those relationships. I do think, Mono and I have talked about this a lot, we're just seeing this really interesting moment for Emmanuel, where he's always been in the most politically convenient place. On this issue- Because his beliefs align with it. I won't cast judgment on why he's in a certain political place, but on this issue of Ukraine, he believes that this aid is essential for the US's national security, for the security of Europe. He's willing to put a lot on the line, to spend a lot of political capital on something that I think watching it, it's almost a little bit surprising in this moment.

Well, Manu and Lauren, thank you guys so much for dishing with me during the five minutes of slow time in your week. It was so fun.

Thanks for having us.

Absolutely.

Loved it.

That was Lauren Fox and Manu Raju, both of them cover Congress for CNN. And Manu is the host of Inside Politics Sunday on CNN. The Assignment is a production of CNN audio. This episode was produced by Dan Blum. Our senior producer is Matt Martinez. Dan DeZula is our technical Director, and Steve Liktai is the executive producer of CNN Audio. We got support from Haley Thomas, Alex Manisari, Robert Mathers, John Dianora, Lenny Steinhart, Jamis Andres, Nicole Pessereau, and Lisa Namerou. Thanks, as always to Katie Hinman. I'm Audi Cornish. Thank you for listening.

When you work, you work next level. When you play, you play next level. When it's time to sleep, Sleep Number smart beds are designed to embrace your uniqueness, providing you with high-quality sleep every night. Sleep Next Level. Jd Power ranks Sleep Number number one in customer satisfaction with mattresses purchased in store. Now, during Sleep Number's President's Day sale, save 50% on the Sleep Number limited edition smart bed plus special financing for a limited time. For JD Power 2023 award information, visit JDPower. Com/awards, only at sleepnumberstores or sleepnumber. Com. See store for details.