Here's something I think about from time to time. So much of the legacy of the 2020 election was shaped by the act of voting itself.

I've requested a mail-in ballot. I'm trying to avoid indoor spaces, and so it seemed like an easy way to avoid indoor spaces.

I prefer to mail it in and just stay in the house and be safe.

The spread of COVID-19 forced many states to expand vote by mail operations. Ballet Dropboxes became a more regular site, and it was there that so many conspiracy theories found a home.

When you do all mail-in voting ballots, you're asking for fraud. People steal them out of mailboxes. People print them, and then they sign them and they give them in. The people don't even know where they're double counted. People take them away. They force people to vote.

Of course, we saw those lies culminate in the January sixth attack on the US Capitol. Well, four years later, workers had Voting companies and election officials are still being threatened, and some Republican voters continue to say they don't have faith in our electoral system. And with the first debate between Vice President Kamala Harris and former President Donald Trump just days away, the first mail-in ballots are expected to go out soon in North Carolina once courts rule on whether Robert F. Kennedy Jr.'s name will be on the ballot or not. But once they arrive, are voters ready for the rules that come along with them? My guest today is CNN's Diane Galliger. She's based in Charlotte. We're going to talk about what voters should know about early and mail-in balloting this cycle and how the Republican Party is embracing methods their candidate himself regularly trashes. From CNN, This is One Thing. I'm David Ryan. So, Diane, how is early voting and mail-in voting, in particular, going to work in North Carolina this year?

The bigger difference in North Carolina this year will definitely be voting by mail, and that's because of a couple of things. The first part that is probably going to be the most impactful, honestly, is the amount of time. North Carolina previously had a grace period of about three days for ballots that were postmarked before or on election day to arrive and still be counted. During the 2020 election, because of the pandemic, that was extended to nine days. Today, now, it's zero.

People shouldn't wait around is what you're saying.

No, do not wait till the last minute unless you're going to go deliver it by hand to the county office. Now, there are options to turn it in in-person at your county elections office. During early in-person voting, you can do that. But again, a lot of the reason why people outside of 2020 voted by mail was for specific reasons. It It's difficult for them to get into these places to go vote in person. They have disabilities, they're elderly, they work weird hours. So sometimes dropping it off isn't always convenient at those specific locations, especially if you live in a rural county. And in North Carolina, there's the second-highest rural population. So that's a lot of people. Filling it out is different now, too, David. During the 2020 election, the number of witnesses required was reduced to just one. North Carolina already had a very high bar. It required two witnesses or one notary public on an absentee ballot. That's back. So not only do you need two witnesses or a notary public to sign your ballot to prove that you, in fact, voted, but you also now have to include a photocopy of your approved photo ID.

That's completely new.

Wow.

Yeah.

You need two separate people to certify that, yes, they filled this out correctly, and then you need an ID. That sounds like a lot of steps.

It's definitely a hurdle. Now, there is an option for some people. If you, for some reason, cannot get to make a photocopy, because the truth is, how many of us do have photocopiers at our fingertips.

Seriously.

And printers even. There is an option to fill out a form asking for an exception. But voting rights groups are also concerned what the requirement is to always accept that, how that's going to work. They are advising people, If you can get to a photocopier, photocopy your ID. David, this is also the first presidential election in North Carolina that voters will actually have to show ID, period. This has been going on for years and years in this state. It's included a long legal saga, but it's finally in place. It's been very confusing for voters who years ago, thought maybe they needed an ID or didn't. The state of confusion is honestly It's a constant, it seems like, and people have to know. They got to present an ID to vote in person and also to vote by mail.

Also, what are the parties in the state doing to make sure people are aware of all this stuff?

The biggest thing that I've noticed in talking to both of the campaigns of the Republican and the Democratic presidential candidates, but also there's a really intense and important down ballot in North Carolina, and they're cognizant of what voters are dealing with. They are pushing early in-person voting, for sure. They know that voting by mail is harder this time. They also know that far fewer people are going to vote by mail than did in 2020. That's natural. But they realize it's more work and there's more room for error. The average voter doesn't pay attention to a lot of these changes until they're actually doing it. That is where some of the idea that these changing laws and intentions emotional confusion sometimes creates barriers for people voting. Not that they're impossible to overcome, but sometimes it just makes it easier for people to say, It's not worth it for me. Whatever. I'm not going to do it. And that is the concern. What is the Harris campaign doing as far as any education? Because most of those male voters often are mail-in voters or often Democrats. Look, we recognize that the barrier to entry to vote by mail is harder this time around.

That's why we've invested in an expanded voter protection team all over the state. We've hired- The Harris campaign in North Carolina talked to me about beefing up their voter protection units to actually help not just educate, but fight for voters who feel like they're being disenfranchized.

What we see with absentee mail, again, about 5% of the total electorate. All votes matter. All votes are important, especially as you talk about where we have margins very tight. President President Trump won North Carolina in 2016, won it in 2020, and we'll see him win it again in 2024.

Both sides do seem resigned that, look, there's going to be battles over the ballots, and they're already ready for those.

Beyond North Carolina, though, what should people in other states know about early voting and mail-in voting as they start to engage with this process and start to learn what these rules are?

I mean, number one, it's safe and it's effective. If that's the type of voting that is right for you, you should do it. But you also should make sure you are aware of what the rules are because they've changed in most states. 2021 and 2023 were both unprecedented years when it comes to the number of voting laws that were enacted. Now, I'm talking both restrictive and expansive voting laws. There are several states, including those all-importance swing states like Michigan, that have made voting easier or better in terms of accessibility. But honestly, more frequently, we're tracking the opposite. There's a report from the liberal leaning Brennan Center of Justice. There's a report that basically says voting in half the states across the country is going to be harder than it was four years ago. Now, Again, when you say harder, we're talking about those additional steps or hurdles that people may have to overcome to cast their ballots. Many of the states, especially those that have Republican legislatures and governors that have changed laws, they've actually made the act of helping the voters understand or physically assisting with that access or understanding more difficult or even illegal.

Some of these organizations no longer are able to assist with ballots. That's been their entire purpose because there's this suspicion that they're only assisting Democrats. That's unfounded, but it's oftentimes placating people who are concerned about meddling in elections and election assistance being one way.

You're talking about somebody that helps an elderly person deliver the ballot to where it needs to be, you're saying?

Sometimes, yes. Or help somebody in understanding how to fill ballots out properly. There are organizations that do this. Now, you can usually ask a friend or a relative to do that. Most of these laws still allow that. But it's the idea that these organizations that have made it their mission to try and make voting easier or more accessible for people, or if English is not your first language, or something like that, it has become more difficult in many states for those organizations to operate, including sending out simple voter registration information because there's a suspicion that they're trying to register people who are not allowed to be on the voter rolls. And there's also, I mean, talking about usage of ID, talking about regulations on registration, early and absentee voting. Georgia also empowered partisan poll watchers through some of its election overhaul legislation. So there's concern about intimidation at the polls. It's just this amalgamation of so many changes at once that not only creates this cloud of confusion around the voting process, but also in some cases, inserts fear. Whether that be election workers or voters themselves, for many voters, it doesn't take much to make them say, It's not worth it to me.

When you're talking about swing states that are hinging on a really relatively small amount of votes, if you get enough people who say, Hey, this is just too much hassle for me. I can't be bothered with this. That can make a big difference.

That's right. And look, in so many of these swing states, we're talking about one point or less. North Carolina was the only state on the 2024 battleground map, those seven swing states, that Donald Trump won in 2020, and he only won it by 1.3 points. That was his slimmest victory. Americans often only participate in these presidential elections. Sometimes the biggest hurdle of all is simply not knowing. The average person is not sitting around looking up every detail of how do I vote because they think they should, as they should, just be able cast their ballot. Sometimes that is what actually disenfranchizes people.

Can you send me straight about something? Yeah. Are Donald Trump and the Republican Party fans of mail-in voting or not? Because I've heard a bunch of different ways from them.

I can't set you straight on that, honestly. It's complicated. It's contradictory. It's hard to tell. Yes and no. It depends on the day or sometimes even what part of the day it Look, Republicans overall are going to tell you that they want their supporters to vote in the way that is most comfortable for that voter. Guess what? A lot of people prefer the convenience of voting early, either in person or by mail. Now, Trump, for his part, continues to rail against mail-in voting, but also he sometimes encourages supporters to do it, sometimes both on the same day.

The way you win is to swan Swamp them. If we swamp them, they can't cheat. It just doesn't work out. But if you can't make it, you need to make a plan, register, and vote any way possible. We got to get you to vote.

A good example is last week, the RNC and the Trump campaign rolled out an initiative called Swamp the Vote. The point of it was to encourage voters in that very important state of Pennsylvania to vote by mail. That exact same day.

Anytime you have a mail-in ballot, there's going to be massive fraud.

Trump is telling Dr. Phil in an interview that mail-in balloting shouldn't be allowed. And anytime you have mail-in ballots, quote, you have massive fraud.

You have ballot harvesting, but you also have people getting ballots. I mean, in California, you have people getting seven ballots.

There's no proof of those claims. So not only is it false, but it's counterproductive for him. The North Carolina GOP chair this week told me that the mixed messaging isn't a problem in North Carolina because Trump usually follows things up with make a plan. You need to make a voting plan. That is important. Every single voter out there should have a plan, but they are mixed messages. Is it difficult to convince people that, though, when the top of the ticket has for so long trashed mail-in ballots.

Well, again, what I would point is President Trump has been very clear, specifically, and when he's come to North Carolina- Would we call that clear? He has. When he's come to North Carolina, he's told people, Have a plan, whether, again, that's by voting by mail, voting in person early or on election day. Have the plan, execute the plan.

What if they're making a plan based on what the leader of the party says? And what if he's saying these bogus claims that you're talking about? That's just incredibly confusing.

We're hearing that, David. I will tell you that I have had multiple voters who have said that they don't trust voting by mail, even if it's how they used to vote for a long time. In the state of North Carolina, previous to the past eight or so years, Republicans actually outnumbered Democrats when it came to mail-in ballading. It wasn't controversial. While there may be concerns about specific small incidents, there's no proof of any of this widespread fraud or intentional distrust in that process. And the impact is there on voters. They tell us that they don't want to do that. They don't trust the system.

Look, we lost Arizona. Ten thousand votes was the difference between Arizona going for Donald Trump and 10,000 going for Joe Biden. Yeah, there were a lot of problems. There were a lot of problems. But 10,000 votes stand between us and getting those Arizona electoral votes.

And we got a lot of people-There are many of these changes that were made that were often done to placate people who were angry and upset and we're looking for something to fix. Sometimes there were solutions to problems that did not exist. There's nothing wrong with making an election run more smoothly, ever. But there have been so many changes in the the last four years. The cloud of confusion that will likely exist around the 2024 general election for an average, maybe less engaged voter is going to be thick.

Diane, thank you.

Thank you.

Just a reminder, we have something at CNN called the CNN Voter Handbook. It's got everything you need to know about voting in your state: key deadlines, how to register, ID rules. That is over at cnen. Com/vote. Again, that's cnen. Com/vote. We'll leave a link in our show notes. One thing is a production of CNN Audio. This episode was produced by Paola Ortiz and me, David Reind. Our senior producers are Felicia Patinkin and Fez Jamil. Matt Dempsey is our production manager. Dan Dizula is our technical director, and Steve Ligtai is the executive producer of CNN Audio. We get support from Haley Thomas, Alex Manasari, Robert Mathers, John Dianora, Lanie Steinhart, Jamis Andres, Nicole Pessereau, and Lisa Namarau. Special thanks, as always, to Wendy Brundage and Katie Hinman. We'll be back on Wednesday from Philadelphia to break down everything that happened in the presidential debate. I'll talk to you then.