Hi, my name is David O'Yalawo, and I feel winning-est about being Conan O'Brien's friend. Winning-est?

Yeah. You win. You beat everyone.

I've just always wanted to use that word in a sentence.

Fall is here, hear the yell, back to school, ring the bell, brand new shoes, walking loose, climb the fence, books and pens.

I can tell that we are going to be friends.

I can tell that we are going to be friends.

Hey there. Welcome to Konan O'Brien. Needs a friend. I don't know why you always laugh at the intro. We always look at each other. We do. Matt, Gorley. It's just between me and Gorle. Nice to have you here. And Sona, you are, I guess, a necessity.

What? No.

Thank you. Come on. I love you. Is it a thank you? I love you.

I love you, too. But there's There's nicer things to say.

I'm not sure there are. It's a wonderful day out there. It is. You guys are always telling me, Oh, don't think first about what to say, Konan. Just start talking. And then I do, and you say, I got nothing.

But the weather is like It's the lowest common denominator.

But it's also fun when you don't have anything because we get to pounce on you.

Okay, that's good.

Because it's also so against... You're such a preparer. You like being prepared for things. Yes, I do. This, I think, takes you outside your comfort zone, and I like that. Yeah, me too.

Well, I was walking down the street.

Okay, this is boring.

It's nice. I enjoy this neighborhood a lot. A lot of young people, and they shout at me out their windows, which is nice. It just makes me feel like, Hey, I'm living in a nice little world where people shout out their windows at me. It's usually drop dead. Okay.

Yeah.

Do you walk- I get murderer a lot.

Do you walk so people will recognize you?

I'm wearing a shirt that says, I am Cona O'Brien. There's an arrow going up to my head.

You have one of those like Statue of Liberty tax boards that you just twirl around that says Konan on.

I'm a sign flipper. I'm a sign flipper. Spinner. That's right. I did a remote. I have a lot of remotes out there. Over the years, people have said, Oh, I really like the remotes you do. Not all of them made it to public viewership.

Oh, this one didn't?

Yeah, we did a sign spinning remote.

See, look, we found something.

Don't get excited yet. This is great. But I'm going to call him out. Matt O'Brien, one of our writers, I think was on this remote, and he said, Oh, this will be great. We got some sign spinners. He had us shoot it in an empty back lot at Warner Brothers. I immediately sensed this is a comedy vacuum. There's no one to bounce off of here. There's a sign spinning guy, but he's just pretty serious about it. He occasionally made puns about sign spinning, and I couldn't do it. And the remote was going nowhere. And then I looked up and I saw vultures circling.

Oh, no. Why did you guys do it on the street?

There's a It's a vulture that circles when it knows a remote is going down. And if you're in my line of business, it strikes terror in your heart. Exactly. Why weren't we out in the world? We were on the back lot. So I started just saying things into the lens. Sometimes I think about the writers watching this later in the edit room. Oh, my God. I say little things like, You did this to me. I'll get you. I'm talking into the future. I know this remote will not get made. I know that this is all going down in flames. I just start saying, Having a good time editing? This isn't going to make it. I'm literally talking to the writers two days from now who are going to be looking at the footage. Oh, no. I remember that one. There was that one, and then there was another remote where one of the writers thought it'd be really funny if I hooked up with those people that have those shows where they claim they see the paranormal, and they took me through an empty studio. Again, there's a calm denominator here. No other people open space or enclosed space with nothing in it.

Then the person kept saying, I think I maybe see a ghost, but I'm not sure. Me going like, trying to make something happen, saying, Oh, not sure. Well, echo, echo, echo, echo. It just didn't go anywhere. I wake up at night sometimes thinking about science spinning remote and ghost hunting remote. And I just covered in sweat. Those are the ones that got away. No, those are the ones that never were there. I see. They didn't get away. There was nothing there to catch in the first place.

Signs spinning seems fun.

Now you're implying I failed.

I don't know. I feel like it sounds to me like it was all there. No. And just, you probably just didn't pull your weight. There's puns. There's signs that are spinning.

What was he dressed like? Was he dressed like an uncle Sam?

Just a normal guy. I think he was just- There's a backlog. He was just doing it. Wait a minute.

He was doing- This is your third uncle Sam. You got to dress like uncle Sam. No, I didn't say uncle Sam.

You said uncle Sam. I know I did. Then you said this is your third uncle Sam. No. That's a totally... That is such a shitty... You keep mentioning scuba diving. No. Then I'm like, What? Let me explain. Hold on. What? Yeah, scuba diving. What did you say? Repeat after me. Scuba diving. Okay, scuba diving. You said scuba diving again. What is he with you in scuba diving?

Listen. Matt, you're terrible. You're the worst therapist ever.

Worst therapist ever.

What's even worse- You sit there with the patient and you keep saying things.

I'm excited. You keep saying things.

Also, the thing is- This is Matt.

What I'm talking about hasn't even come out yet.

I know. Oh, no, no. There's nine reasons why what you just did is a shit show. But I'm just picturing you as a therapist.

But this Easter egg is going to pay off for people when they listen to Summer Smoors, and then I will be vindicated and writing high.

You're a podcast expert. I think of those things. What order is it? What's been said? I'm going to contain it to this episode. You're just always shooting off your mouth left and right.

That's because I know the listeners with us, and I know they can do a memento-like time jump back and forth.

This is just a prequel.

Okay, this is my impression. Matt Gourley, therapist. So, Konan, I'd like to talk to you both Bowl of corn, bowl of Corn, Bowl of Corn. Excuse me, Dr. Gourley, what are you saying? Bowl of Corn, Bowl of Corn. You're telling me why am I a therapist? Dr. Gourley, why you keep saying Bowl of Corn? Mmm, Konan, you seem obsessed with Bowl of Corn. Did your father molest you with a bowl of corn as a child? No, you said it nine times. Well, that's it for my impression of Matt Gourley.

This is Konan O'Brien. Therapist. Therapist. Therapist. Therapist. Matt, why do you keep mentioning therapist?

The old switcheroo.

Oh, you know the lingo in comedy? Good for you.

Thank God, he's on you.

Incredible. What happened? Go back to him.

No, go on her. She really took you down. You got to get her.

I am the T-rex in Jurassic Park. Yes. If I see slight movement, I go to it, and you just stepped out of an outhouse.

Yeah, I know. You know what? When the glass starts to wiggle?

It doesn't wiggle. It makes little concentric circles of movement.

Don't say concentric. Don't say concentric. You know words, but it does a thing. Oh my God. It ripples.

Yeah. Concentric? Is that a word? Yeah. Actually, my formal name is Concentric O'Brien. We just shortened it to Cona. I was named my There's a geometry thing.

I was trying to say when you come to the studio, the glasses.

That's true. Oh, that's right. You just see it ripple. Then you two jump in the back of an open Jeep and try to escape.

Do you remember when Jeff Goldblum was on the podcast and he left holding a big flare just to get you out of the building? You guys don't really know your Jurassic Park.

Oh, boy. Yeah, I do. Oh, boy.

You went a while.

It took me a minute.

Can I just say also, you bailed on that as you said it, which is always my favorite thing. Remember when Jeff Goldblum left with a big flare? You guys don't know the reference. Wait, I know I know the reference. I saw the look in your eyes. I wasn't laughing, but I know the reference.

I saw you smelling blood, and I just wanted it out.

Okay, here's the new one. You were so scared of me.

Matt Gourley, stand-up comic. Hey, everybody. Welcome to the show. Yeah, the other day, Hobo asked me for a bite to eat, so I bit him. You guys don't get it. You don't like it. Why did chicken cross the road to get to the other side? Why did people hate me? I don't know why they don't like it. It's because he actually crossed the road. That's not the reason why. Well, I've I've demolished you both. Time to introduce our guest, if our guest still wants to be part of this. My guest today, star in such movies as Selma, Lincoln, and the Butler. He deserves better.

What? He does.

Than this dumb intro.

I thought you were laughing because These are the most serious movie titles.

I know because I were- I thought you were like, Selma, Lincoln, the Butler. That's what it sounds like.

I know, but I'm laughing because he's such a serious good actor, and we're idiots, and I don't know what we're doing.

I think you two are idiots, and I portray an idiot. That's the way I look at it. I'm a great fespian who portrays an idiot. Anyway, you can now see him in the Paramount+ series, Lawman, Bas Reeves. He is one of the finest actors living. I'm excited he's here today. Again, unless he's left. David O'Yellow-O.

You've been on the show several times on the Late Night show. I remember the first time you came on, I was a bit intimidated. I'm being honest because you're such a superb actor and you have such great acting chops. I just thought, this is a very serious man and I need to-Gravitas is probably the word you're looking for.

Yes, I know.

Although I call it gravitas. Then you came out and you were immediately just so hilarious and charming that This is a lot of pressure now, Konan. Oh, yes. Well, I'm saying it all went away. That was just the first time I met you. Then I don't know what happened after that. It had just been a complete bore. Then I was thinking, Konan, you've been here before because I've been lucky enough to talk to some great actors in my day who are also very funny. I always find it it angers me somewhat because I think, how can you have both? All I've got is I think I'm funny, and then that's my excuse for not being able to act my way of a paper bag. Here you are, Shakespearean, accomplished actor, and you're one of the funnier people I've talked to.

Well, thank you. I appreciate that a lot. You are a very statuesque man. I mean, even just greeting you just now.

That's usually what people say about blonde women in the 1950s.

You're also very voluptuous.

That's how I think of you as a blonde, statuesque woman. But no, you have a certain presence. I have a presence. I gravitate to you. I'd like to think I do. You You have some intimidation factor.

I have a presence, but a creepy presence, wouldn't you say? A little bit.

You know what?

No, jump in on right of that. Wow.

You just agreed right away.

You're not only a great actor, but you're funny. He's like, Well, you're tall.

Something you had nothing to do with.

You're tall and not unwomen-like. Well, I think we're off on a really good fun.

Yes. Thank you for the interpretation there. That was beautiful.

There's so much to talk about, and I want to talk about your new show, and there's so many things to discuss. First of all, I was nervous for you when I heard that you were going to play Coriolenus. Oh, yeah. I know that you're a Shakespearean trained actor, but I think in my nightmare, and you're playing it, where is the production going to be done?

At the National Theater in London. Oh, my God.

My nightmare would entail being in a Shakespearean play, playing the main role, because My whole life is, I don't know what to do here, so I'll make it up. You can't do that in Coriolain. You can't start to say, Well, anyway, what's going on here? Did you see what's in the paper yesterday?

If you do, I think They're going to turn on you pretty quickly.

You know what? I actually have that experience. I did a Shakespeare play at the Royal Shakespeare Company, and I just had one of those moments where all the lines went out of my head. The weirdest thing... You can make it up, actually. Not with much success, but I found... The words went out of my... I found myself saying, Sheeps and goats. What role is this? I literally… It's Anthony Cleopatra. Sheeps and goats is not something that gives your acting partner anywhere to go. The blank expression came back, and you know what was so awful that I did? I exited the stage. How terrible.

I've screwed them twice.

It's so bad. It is one of the things I'm the most ashamed of.

I love recreating this because you blank on your lines and you're up there. This is the worst place to butcher Shakespeare. It was in Stratford upon Avon at the Royal Shakespeare Company. The Ghost of Shakespeare is there watching. He's there every night just heckling. And some sheep and goats. Yeah, but to just be there and to shout sheep and goats and then turn on your heels and stride out.

Literally. That was really bad. Now you have me thinking what Shakespeare's expressions go, what his ghost must have been looking like at that point, I'm going, bloody actors. Exactly.

That's a badass move, actually.

Or maybe Shakespeare's like, I should have worked that in. It worked.

Oh, so poetic of me.

You have such a fascinating story because you were born in Nigeria, moved to England, but then moved back to Nigeria?

Is that what happened? Born in the UK, moved to Nigeria for about six years, then moved back to the UK. Yeah. Born in Oxford, moved to London, then to Nigeria. Formative years of my lifespan in Nigeria, from age of 6 to 13. Then born into an immigrant family, immigrant parents for whom the arts was just not on the docket at all.

Because there's the immigrant experience of you must climb the ladder, legitimacy, and then you're telling them, I have an idea, I'll put on costumes and pretend to be people.

I remember saying to my dad that I was thinking of being an actor, and he said, Why do you want to go and be with all these promiscuous... Cot jestas.

Oh, would he be proud of you now? This Konan O'Brien.

Here I am with the ultimate court jester.

That is fantastic that he had that attitude. If I'm correct, he's royalty.

Yeah. His father was the king of a part of Nigeria called hour. So, yeah, the idea of me becoming a promiscuous court jester was very low on the royal ambitions my family had for me.

So how did you convince them? Was there a turning point where your father looked at you and said, I get it?

Yes. And Ironically and beautifully, it was tied to royalty yet again. After that season, believe it or not, after I had said Sheeps and Goats, I was invited back to the Royal Shaper Company to play Henry VI. In Henry VI, it's parts one, two, and three. On a Saturday, we would perform all three plays in a day. We would start at 10:30 in the morning and finish at 10:30 at night. Now, my dad, he's no longer with us, but when he was with us, he was someone who quite easily would fall asleep in the middle of a three-minute duologue between actors. You gave him a warm room, a nice comfy seat, and he's out. My wife was sat next to him on this Saturday, where he was there to watch all 12 hours of Henry VI Part One, Two, and Three. She was armed with mints, her shoulder to jab him in the ribs, the whole thing. He stayed awake for the entire thing. He came on the night that then Prince Charles also came for all the performances. You're talking about a man who came to the UK in the '60s, dealt with unbelievable racism.

The notion of any Black person playing the King of England was so impossible. I remember him coming to the stage door afterwards, and the phrase he said to me is, I cannot believe they allowed a Black man to play the King of England, and it is my son. That was the moment. That was the turning point. That's the point beyond which he became my number one fan until his passing. It was a truly beautiful thing.

It's getting all tingly, but just the... I can only imagine, I can't imagine, but what your father, what your family encountered when they come to a very different England in the '60s. Then to see this come about, to see... It's unbelievable.

Yeah, it is and it was. It's one of the most beautiful things. My dad was a minicab driver in London. Years after that moment at the Royal Shakespeare Company, I've now moved to LA, and I'm getting to be in movies, and I could always tell when he had a passenger in the car because he would go, David, are you doing that movie with Tom Cruise? And I would go, Daddy, who's in the car? Nobody's in the car. Have you met Steven Spielberg? I am not making this up. I am not making this up. The worst.

And the background, Hey, you missed my house.

Exactly. Daddy, please focus. The one that I will never forget is when he goes, David, where is it you live in LA? Is it Beverly Hills? And I said, Sherman Oaks. Yes, that is it. Beverly Hills. I was like, okay. Sorry, whoever's in in the car.

Also, you can imagine the person in the car thinking, what it may be. I mean, this could be a madman just calling anyone at random.

That is exactly what they are thinking. They are thinking, I want a refund. I'm giving this guy the worst review. Because that was exactly how he would scream at me on speakerphone with these poor people just wanting to get from A to B.

What's the pop culture you're growing up with? What are you watching on TV, for example, that's influencing you when you're young? What's hitting you? What's tugging at your strings? Oh, wow.

The show I became obsessed with was LA Law. The reason why is, again, going back to my dad. My dad had three sons, and he wanted a lawyer, a doctor, and an engineer. I started to get this acting bug when I was younger. But Blair Underwood played this very snazzy lawyer- Sure, I remember that. In LA Law. Unbeknownst to me, the The inflation of the two things was why I was so gravitated. I gravitated towards that show because I was like, Gosh, I just love TV, I love films. I love the whole idea of storytelling, but my dad wants me to be a lawyer, and that guy is both. I went as far as applying to law school, the whole thing.

Just because of Blair Underwood.

Because of Blair Underwood. I have told him since, and he's horrified. But yeah, that was That was one of the more influential shows on me.

I was flipping through notes on you, and then I saw that you were a Happy Days fan. I thought, Happy Days. Were you watching Happy Days when you were in Nigeria? I mean, obviously, these are reruns because you're way too young. But why is that show grabbing you?

It was the Fonds. It was all about the Fonds. It was all about Henry Winkler and how cool he was and the comb through the hair, the whole thing. But it was also a very thing for me because I had a little Afro, and every time I took the comb to my Afro, it wouldn't go through like it did for him. And many years later, because obviously, he was in this with Ron Howard, and Bryce Dallas Howard is a good friend of mine. I was at her wedding, I met Henry Winkle. I was like, Oh, my gosh, I'm meeting the Fonds. I said, Oh, it was so hard for me because I would always try to imitate the comb going through my hair. And he went, I only I never hold it up. I never put it through my hair. He never does put it through. I went, Oh, my gosh. All of that pain. And you never actually ran the coat through your hair.

It's true.

He starts and then he realizes it's perfect.

And he goes, Hey, in front of the mirror. I was like, That would have been so much more achievable for me. Yeah, I got that all wrong.

You went to a, not a military academy, but you were educated-Similar. It might as well be. Similar military academy. In what way? Did you have to wear a uniform when you were- Had to wear a uniform.

It was very, very regimen. It It was a boarding school in Nigeria, incredibly strict. When I talk about it, especially in a Western context, because you will get lashed if you did naughty things, and I was a very naughty boy. But yeah, it It was pretty intense. But I was the kid who... I remember for a dare, this is so stupid. For a dare, I went in to steal something out of the headmaster's fridge. I got into his house, and I'll never forget the silhouette of this guy in the door looking at me. I'm in his fridge. I didn't want anything out of his fridge. I just did it for... It was a learning point. But it was... He had one of those voices. You know those people who you can barely hear what they're actually saying? I was just like, I saw all I heard. I It's all I heard. But I spent the next term washing toilets. Our uniforms were white, which is not the best uniform for doing that job.

The closest I have to anything like that was, I was very happy my parents sent me away to a camp, and then for some reason, they switched me to another camp the next year, and I got there, and they issued me a uniform, and it had a stripe down the side. I remember thinking like, What the hell is this? But that's the closest I ever came to feeling like I was in the military. It shows. Thank you. I went to a camp where it was like a camp in every other way, except there was a stripe down the side of my pants. And yet when you're telling your story, I'm like, I've been there, man. I remember roasting a marshmallow. There was a stripe down my pants. So don't complain to me about your military academy. It's hard.

It's hard having a stripe down your pants. I get it.

There's so much to talk about in your film work, but I remember when you came on my late night program for Salma for your brilliant portrayal of Martin Luther King Jr. I remember we were talking about it and then realizing later on that you had been method when you did that role, meaning that you really wanted to inhabit what you did so brilliantly. I think there's no more difficult task if you're, we're talking about you playing these Shakespearean figures. If you're playing someone from distant history, you can interpret. But when you're playing someone who lived concurrently with our times, died in 1968, and there's all this footage, you need to create your interpretation, but it also needs to ring true. You really felt like you had to inhabit him all the time and be in character. How long did you do that for?

It was three months of the shoot. As you can tell, I have an English accent. We were shooting in Atlanta. The worst thing about being an actor, especially playing that role, is imposter syndrome. You go, Well, I am not him, obviously. But you have all these people daily who you feel the need to convince you are him. But the worst thing you can do, I think, as an actor is to be playing that room, in a sense, as opposed to the film, which is what people are ultimately going to see. If I'm having to convince the crew, the extras, my fellow actors, moment to moment, that's too many things. The margins for error are already what they are. The way to take that out of the I think, is for people to, by and large, just go, Oh, that's not Dr. King, but that's David's version of Dr. King moving around the set. It's not and roll, camera, action, and it's like a switch. It's too much to be constantly doing that switch.

No, for you to be at the craft service table joking around with the crew, and then, Okay, put down that pretzel, and it's time to... We're going to be Dr. Martin Luther King now. It seems like that would be impossible.

I had so many speeches, whether it be in a church, at a rally or whatever. There were people there, because of the locations we were shooting, who had been at marches with Dr. King, who had been in churches with Dr. King. I mean, John Lewis visited the set one day and decided to stay for one of my speeches. I was like, Dude, please don't. That really doesn't help me at all. You're lovely and I love you. Please leave. Any time you do any gesture, I can just picture John does, Nope.

Can you imagine?

He was lactose-intolerant.

Didn't like almond either. Put the almond down. It's too much.

It's literally too much. The way I oxidize that is to just be in what I would call king light, where it's always there so that the extras aren't suddenly going, Oh, look at Look at that trick he's doing. You're trying to not act is the reality. The best way to do that is to just be. If I'm being all the time, then hopefully that's what the camera is catching.

People don't realize that this is for people in your life, friends, I would think, especially family, if you're trying to maintain a certain persona or inhabit a character for three months, okay, that's one thing on the set, but what happens when you go home?

Yeah, it's a nightmare. It's a nightmare, particularly for my wife. At the time we were doing Selma, we had also just moved into a new home. I remember her calling me to discuss curtain colors. I literally went, Well, I think the gray. She went, Okay, stop. I am not discussing curtains with Dr. King. I absolutely I draw the line there. We will pick this up after the film. Thank you very much. The other awful thing is- I have a dream of Venetian blind. I know. She's like, Stop, stop. Time out.

Did you ever ask her to call back as his wife?

I should have done that. She should have done that. I should have done that. No, but what also happened was I put on about 40 pounds to to play Dr. King. He had, or I should say I had as him, what can only be described as manboobs. My wife was incredibly tolerant of this. I I had… I wasn't in the shape I normally pride myself in being in. The day that this thing wrapped, she came up to me, jiggled my mamboots, and said, So what are we doing? What are we doing? I was like, Oh, my Lord. Give me a second. What are we doing here? What are we doing? What are we doing with this?

Speedbag. Come on.

Oh, come on. Feedback. But they would have been very good speedbacks. But yeah, I was like, Okay, I guess my grace period is over.

I will say this, though, for you, David. At least you had that excuse because I step out of the shower and I can't say, No, I'm playing Orson Welles at the end of his life. Or my skin has been artificially freckled in a most horrifying way because I'm playing a striped bass in in a movie. There's no way for me to go. It's like, I'm going to play Conan in the Conan story. You're just stuck. I'm stuck. There is nowhere else to go. How do you relax? Because you are clearly very professional and capable of really focusing, what takes you out of all of that?

I have a very bizarre way of relaxing, which is to watch mixed martial arts. I am obsessed with UFC, and it's completely weird, but watching two men turn each other's faces into burger meat literally calms me down. The reason I know that is because a lot of my Saturday tends to be dedicated to this means of relaxation. My wife cannot bear it. Neither can my daughter, just how bloody these guys can get. My wife will watch me watching it in order to spend time with me on a Saturday. She was like, I'm so tense watching this. Why are you so calm, relaxed? I realized what it is, is in what I do, because I produce movies and TV shows as well, it is so hard to get anything made. It is so hard to get to the point of a result. Two men or two women go in this cage. They have three five minute rounds. Someone will win. Someone will get a result out of this endeavor. It will be on the base. You're looking at me like I'm crazy.

I agree with your wife. For any time I've watched UFC, I've tensed up, and it makes me so... It does the opposite of calm me down. So I'm shocked. This is how you chill out.

I know, but it's on the basis of so much preparation. They do something truly unnatural. They They have to master five, six, seven, eight different disciplines, the amount of training, the amount of the weight cut, all these things they have to do to prepare, which is tantamount to some of what you do as an actor. You prepare, prepare, prepare. As an actor, you don't know what the reviews are going to be. You don't know what the box office is going to be. You don't know if the film is ever going to come out. There's something so satisfying that within those 15 minutes, if it's a three-minute, if it's three rounds or 25 minutes, if it's five rounds, you will have a result. That just me in such a Zen place. It's bizarre, but that's how I relax.

When did you discover UFC? When did you realize this is my drug? This relaxes me.

It is like a drug for me. It's probably within the last 5-7 years, which is synonymous with when I've done some of the work I'm most proud of from a screen perspective and from a producing perspective. To be a Black person in Hollywood, to be a producer in Hollywood, to be someone who has the taste I have when it comes to the stories I want to tell. I'm always trying to color outside of the lines. I'm always trying to give context to hitherto unseen, unknown characters' stories. My mantra is, how do we normalize the marginalized? In an industry that is so fear-based, so constantly looking for a comp or what has come before, and you're trying to do something that is hopefully ground-breaking. It's just you spend your days in a state of wanting to bash your head against the wall quite a lot of the time. This has been that.

Have you considered participating in a UFC fight?

Thankfully, I discovered this when I was a bit older. You have quite a nice face, and I would hate to see anything happen to that face. Yeah, it's not a sport that does well with... Not the face, not the face. No.

I would be not the body or in any way. Not to me. I would enter with a producer. I would enter with Jeff Ross or Jordan Slasky. They would beat on that person. I see. Then if for some reason, one, I would take the credit for it.

You can do the victory lap.

You're talking about the marginalized and getting these stories, which is so difficult. It's always been difficult to get things made. We're in this time right now where it's extremely difficult. I have a lot of friends that work in, mostly writers, but work in the industry, and less is being made, less is being produced right now. There is a lot of fear. Can it be a superhero? Basically, yeah. The story that you want to tell, Can We Make It A Superhero? And this series that you made, Lawmen, About Bass Reeves, is a great story. And you're depicting a real person who... I can't imagine a character who's more marginalized than this character. This is a story you've been trying to tell for a long time.

For a long time, yeah. It was eight years. Eight years. An eight-year journey, yeah. I first encountered the notion of Bass Reeves in 2014. And as someone who was a fan of Westerns growing up, as I told you, I was a bit of a TV addict, so I loved watching them. I never saw anyone who looked like me in them, but I still wanted to be a cowboy. I didn't even realize that there was an image I was missing in terms of me as a Black person in relation to that beloved genre and that incredible history in America, specifically. In 2014, when I found out who Basrius was, and it felt like a story that writes itself in a sense in terms of his achievements. Like you say, born into enslavement ends up escaping enslavement by beating his master nearly to death and then living with Native Americans for a time, which is where he accrued the skills he used when he was deployed as a Deputy US Marshal and went on to have a 32-year career at the most dangerous time in the most dangerous place in America's history. And the only reason we have him is because of the reconstruction era that came directly after the Civil War, where Black people were given the agency that they had never had before.

And that's what enabled him to have the rise, whereby, can you imagine the whiplash of being enslaved and being treated so poorly by white people, and suddenly you are empowered to arrest those, a lot of who were disgruntled because you are now no longer a slave, but someone who has agency.

The very idea that someone who grew up in slavery, a black man who grew up in slavery, would be able to hold a gun was something that was completely unimaginable, let alone then be in charge of enforcing the law.

And then have a badge.

I was watching, there's this moment where early on in this show, it wasn't clear what your relationship was. You're in battle. Then there's a moment where It very much looks like you're serving alongside this general, this officer. Then at one point when the battle's over, you start to walk in one direction and he says, Where are you going? You shift your whole tone to this very servile, which was a great moment. You could see you're playing a character who also has to play a character. Exactly. I don't understand why, because when you hear about the story, and I then went and looked up Bass Reeves, you think, Why did this take eight years? This is a fantastic story. Yeah.

And more importantly, why did this take the entire advent of cinema and TV before we have, in my opinion, a a film that is commensurate with the show? I mean, he's turned up in shows as peripheral or tangential, but never central, never with this focus. And when you think about where the Western occupies in the lexicon of cinema and TV, you can only point to one thing, which is racism, in relation to why we haven't yet seen this character, someone who many people believe is the inspiration for the Lone Ranger, in fact, in terms of the exploits that he engaged in and with and what the Lone ranger represents in terms of what we see in those stories. But it's interesting what you talked about there, the code switching that he has to employ in order to survive, something that is very much alive and well for the marginalized in any society nowadays, if you want to get ahead, especially here in America. But that was what was such a gift to play as an actor, because he was always incredible. It was an opportunity that came along that he seized that allowed him to be the totality of who he could be and who he was.

That was afforded in this country in the 1860s. The thing that I- Then tragically taken away. Tragically taken away with Jim Crow. But it's exactly why it was taken away, because people like Basri were rising to the fore, and that was in and of itself a threat.

What's amazing is I was thinking about it because in your career, you've played so many roles in different historical periods, and I was thinking you're from the UK and Nigeria, but you may know more American history than most Americans, just because of these roles that you're playing.

Yeah, you're absolutely right. It's funny. It's 1865 through to the now. I had my Daniel Day Lewis moment in Lincoln playing a Unionist soldier opposite him, berating him for spouting the Gettysburg Address, but not living by its tenants and saying, When are Black people going to get the vote? And then in Selma, 19 presidents, 100 years later, in 1965, I'm asking the same thing of Lyndon Johnson, When are Black people going to get the vote? And then in the Butler, we go from the '50s through to the 2000s when Obama becomes President, I play a Tuskegee Airman in Red tails as well. I was a preacher in The Help. And then you have with Bas Reeves, the 1860s. So yeah, it's this 150, 160 period in America's formative history that I've been blessed to tell some of those stories.

Yeah, you've had an amazing education in American history in a very unusual way. I think a lot of people, maybe they either don't know it or they forget that right after the Civil War, there was this moment in reconstruction where many former slaves are running for office and they're office holders. It really does look like the promise is being met And then bang, the door comes down, and it becomes very regressive the other way. Yeah.

And that was one of the reasons I was so passionate about telling this story, because that is such an incredible moment in this country's history. And for reasons that I'm sure we can guess, that period has not been mined enough. It's actually a shameful period in America's history because it was the opportunity to deliver on the promise of what America wanted or said it wants to be. Then the reneging on that was so extreme with Jim Crow coming in and anyone who was marginalized, whether it be sharecropping or or lynching, or all the way through to the civil rights movement was the next time there was any push towards the agency in justice that was promised by Lincoln. It is the moment that birthed Tulsa and that awful situation. But there are African-Americans who did extraordinary things in those 12 to 13 years, which I'm just so desirous that we get to see more of that because in many ways, it is a celebration of what America is, could be, should be. That's why I love doing these historical films, because we are so quick to forget. I mean, the moment that we're in, in Hollywood right now, is a pendulum swing from the Black Lives Matter movement, the #MeToo movement, these moments very recently where there were huge gains made that are now being clawed back because we just refuse to learn from history and build on the knowledge accrued, which is why for me, storytelling is not just about entertainment.

It's about holding culture and our communal community accountable.

I always go back to the same thought, which is we're a work in progress, America, the United States. It's a work in progress, and you have to acknowledge the terrible mistakes and flaws. You also have to acknowledge the great aspects of the culture, and you just have to keep going back at it. Absolutely. Keep going, getting back into the conversation and saying, How can we move the puzzle piece a little bit further? And the pendulum will swing. It'll go right, it'll go left. We just have to keep nudging it along.

Absolutely. I always say, You cannot be what you cannot see. And you need to see it. You need to see those great moments in order to continue to aspire towards them. To me, Bas Reeves is a great moment, not just a great man, but it's a great moment. To me, I know it sounds a bit lofty, but it's a clarion call to how do we keep on finding our way back to our better selves. That's what Selma was for me as well. That's what Queen of Cartway was. That's what a United Kingdom was. That's certainly the work I'm most proud of. I think that's an element of it because I agree with you. That's part of how we be better is to know more.

Who are the actors that you were watching when you were seeing cinema, when you were seeing film, you're coming along where you thought, Okay, that person is inspiring me. That person is showing me the way.

Yeah. My two big heroes, probably Sydney Poitier and Daniel Day-Lewis. My mom's favorite film was Guess Who's Coming to dinner. We would watch that time and time again. His poise, someone who looked like... I get emotional just thinking about it, but someone who looked like me and had the bearing of my father and my uncles. That was just not something you saw almost at all. Certainly not in films that were universally acclaimed, in the heat of the night as well, which is just a formative piece of cinema for me. But then also just seeing Daniel Day-Lewis in my left foot and just thinking, I simply do not understand how it is possible for an actor to achieve that level of embodiment. When I found out he was able-bodied, when I heard him speak, and he was so opposite to that, it was the moment I determined that as an actor, the thing I want to aspire to be the most is chameleonic, someone who you roll to roll, you're going, which way is he going to go next? Because that's what I love about Daniel Day-Lewis. That's what I love about Christian Bale. That's what I love about what I get to do is I have no interest in playing some version of myself.

I always want to go to the character.

Yeah, there's also, obviously, there's a tradition in movies where someone's always playing a version of themselves. And not just Americans, but worldwide people make room for that and they really like it. Some of the iconic movie stars are just playing. You almost want to laugh when they say, Well, my character in this, you're like, What do you mean your character in this? I'm sorry, Clint Eastwood, I love you, but you're always, let me guess. You're squinting, you're a man of few words, and you're going to kick the shit out of somebody if they wrong you. And we love you for it. And we love you for it. But this idea of that you can shapeshift, I don't understand it. It's mystical to me.

I'm so glad you used the phrase mystical because this is where you can get into what feels conceited territory. But to me, in the moment of playing Dr. King or even With Bass Reeves, I remember us shooting on an actual plantation, and it was a plantation where 80 people had been enslaved back in the day. It was an incredibly difficult place to shoot because I kid you not, the ghosts of that fact were present. The nature of the scenes that we were doing were all the more difficult, all the more true, all the more lived in for that fact. There is a exchange that is mystical, spiritual, and it's about how much you're prepared to open yourself up to that in order to be flowed through by the history, by the writing, by the direction, by the other actors, with the audience in mind. What are you, by way of service, offering up to them? And what we do, what I am so privileged to do, is you're constantly in the pursuit of trying to capture lightning in a bottle. There are certain circumstances under which there is more likelihood for that to happen than others.

It's about an openness. That openness, if I've done my work, if I am staying to a certain degree in the character, if I'm open to what is coming at me by way of stimulus, that has been the moments where even now when I watch Selma, I have a complete disconnection from it because I was in a place I almost can't fully quantify or understand because of the alchemy of what was happening in that moment. And that's the joy. That's the benefit of when you're doing it at the highest level with directors like Ava Duvenay and incredible actors around you and great writing. It's a mystical thing.

There's also, you mentioned something that I completely believe in. Of course, it makes sense that you go back to a plantation and pick up on this trauma. You know what I mean? And And that would inform what you're doing.

I'm so glad that you've talked about this because it's one of the tricky things as a producer you face when you're trying to tell a true story and you go, Oh, yeah, there's a good tax break in Canada. And you go, Actually, with this story, I think we've got to fight to be in the place. Every time it has yielded intangible but indisputable benefits. We had that. We shot on the Edmund Pettus Bridge for Selma. We were there. We were on the Montgomery State House steps where Dr. King gave that speech. It's going to sound so crazy, but that morning of giving that speech, the FBI had told him, You will be assassinated if you do that speech. It's too open. We have no way to protect you. And he chose to give that speech anyway. And I woke up with this just overwhelming sense that I was going to be assassinated that day. I know it doesn't fully make sense, but it wasn't until the end of that day where we had shot the scene and it was done, I found myself going, Gosh, I'm still alive. And it was to do with being in that place.

We shot a United Kingdom in Botswana. They wanted us to shoot it in South Africa. There was a complete It's a completely different vibe from being there. Same thing with Queen of Cartway, shooting it in Cartway. There is energy that you pick up, finds its way onto the celluloid, finds its way through the screen, into the audience. At the end of the day, the The true job of a storyteller is the pursuit of the truth. The audience can feel when they are getting a watered-down version of that, and you come out just going, The film was okay. No, you're not necessarily saying it wasn't true, but when you have been served up something that feels truly authentic, it speaks to the human being in you, which is why the best films we love, you have a protagonist that you can tether yourself to and you go, I am relating to this character. I am working out what I would do in this scenario. That's because they are a three-dimensional, believable human being that you can relate to.I'm.

Invested in them, too.That's it.I'm invested in them.I'm invested in them. I really care what happens to this person.

That can only happen if it's true, if it feels true to what it is to be a human being.

Well, I could talk to you for 50 hours. I sure as I could. Likewise. The delightful thing, there are many delightful things about you, but the fact that we started out, there's so much just laughing, just really good nature humor, and then we get to this other place that's really beautiful. That's my favorite podcast conversation. I shouldn't even say podcast conversation. That's my favorite conversation. It really means a lot to me. Go forth. Continue to do great things. Thank you. I am just a massive fan. You're welcome here anytime. I appreciate. If you see a really good part for me as a producer. A statuous blonde. A statuous blonde. A statuous blonde. You could have ended it. I'm just saying- You could have ended it. Sort of a- You did end it. Later in life, Maryland, just before the end. Oh, wrap it.

I can see you being a great incompetent senator. I can see that in Coriolenos.

I'm there.

Fabulous.

I am there. Trust me. Maybe not your production.

I don't think you have. You know what?

He'd bring it down. You know what I love?

Okay. He's local theater. David would be recommending me to every other Shakespeare production. In London.

They'd be like, Well, how come you don't?

No, I think he's better for you.

He's going to be fantastic.

His reviews raved and all the other ones.

Exactly. I'd be like, Yes, mission accomplished.

We took him down.

Conor O'Brien has ruined yet another Shakespearean play. David, bless you. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you.

This was great. Thank you so much.

We're actually recording a segment when we did not expect to do one. That's right. We have no idea for a segment. We just sat around trying to think about what to talk about. We really did.

Let's just dive in.

We spent about 30 seconds, and then you said, Let's just dive in. Because you guys seem to be allergic to thinking about anything beforehand. Yes, our guest, who will not be named, has been delayed. We thought, Let's get some work done. We're here. Let me describe the scene. Oh, right. You can watch this on these nice high-def cameras. So there goes that whole idea.

Do you guys ever look at the camera when you're saying anything? Because you, especially, late night TV, you were always looking down the camera barrier.

Yeah. You know what's funny? And this is a true story. Maybe a week ago, I went into a store and it had the security camera that has the big screen where you can look at yourself. And I started walking backwards and forwards to the security screen. Oh, what? Oh, my God. And I was just having fun the way I did when I was a kid. And then I remember I did this for a living for 9,000 hours. I'm like, Look, there's me there, but here's me here. What is wrong with you? I know. It was very sad, but I really did that. But I don't I understand most people just listen, they don't watch, or is it half and half? Yeah, Adam, let us know. Adam, maybe you can break it down for us. Don't be afraid to approach what we in the business call the microphone.

Still more people listen than watch. I think that's good.

But we do have clips that go on video that will sometimes get up as high as our podcast episodes. Actually, recently, Dr. Arroyo-oh, my God. That did huge numbers. He was so funny. Separately, when you broke down your experience on Hot Ones, that did huge numbers on video.

But typically the podcast audio episodes is where we get this for audience.

I like to act like no one can see what we're doing.

It feels like anything referencing Hot Ones does well.

Why don't we just talk about Hot Ones all the time? There's a whole generation that thinks I'm a guy who came out of nowhere, did Hot Ones, and now I'm trying to cobble together a career based on Hot Ones.

If we start to lose listeners, we could turn this into a Hot Ones rewatch podcast.

That's a great idea.

Good idea.

Or else just occasionally say, Man, that's a crazy thing that happened to me. Then, Sony, you could say, What are you talking about, boss? I could say, Oh, no one would care. Just a really insane behind the scenes in Hot Ones story that nobody knows about.

Or we could We should start making the guests eat-Yes. Chicken wings. Sure. That get increasingly more spicy.

Then when the Hot Ones people come after us, say, This in no way has anything to do. Yes. How dare you?

Then we'll get a black tablecloth and you'll shave your head.

I'll shave my head.

We'll call it scorchin ones.

Temperate warm ones. Temperate warm ones.

No, warm ones. We're going warm?

Yeah. We're going Cooler than hot.

Oh, yes. Thank you. This one's better than the Konan one. Wait, I don't understand what this is. Than the Konan one.

This is hot ones.

This is the latest one with Chris Hemsworth.

Oh, they started a new season.

Okay.

How'd it go? Anyone watch it yet?

It's Chris Hemsworth. I think it's going very well because it's Chris Hemsworth.

You know, that's the thing. Look what I had to do to get the viewer interested. I had to destroy intestinal tract, okay? Yes. But then Chris Hemsworth can just be there and smile. How cute he is.

Look, they're having fun.

Sorry. Are you still here?

Yeah, we're busy right now.

I hate it here.

You're still here? I hate it here. I'm sorry. I thought you left.

I was cursed with this puss. God gave me this face. You can turn that off now. I mean, it's ridiculous. No, you can leave it on. No, no. Turn it off for now.

Because- Conan O'Brien is cursed with this puss.

' Can I just say when I was born, The doctor held me up to my mom and she said, Oh, my God, what happened to his puss? Which is how people talk back then.

Is that a true story?

No.

Because my mom cried when she saw my face. What? Yeah, she thought I was a really ugly baby. I'm not joking because My nose was crooked, too.

Even so, who told you this?

My mom did.

She did. That's not cool.

Now, a lot of babies get smushed on the way out.

I got smushed. Yeah. I was smushed.

And then it takes a while for things to pop back.

I don't know if pop back is the right way to describe it.

How long was your nose smushed for until you were- It's still a little crooked.

It's not normal. My nose is not normal, but it was really crooked. I saw the first picture that they take. They take the first picture of you in the hospital, and I was like, I get it.

My baby picture is horrifying. It's just horrifying. I just have this, it looks like copper wiring on my head. I was the only one in my family of six kids that had this copper-colored hair. It was just a freak show. I asked my mom once, and she said, You were a fat little Buddha with orange hair. I was like, okay. She said it like that? She said, A fat little Buddha with orange hair. Then she gets all happy when she talks about my brothers and sisters.

That's your mom's way of saying, You were not the cuteest baby.

And unloved.

But you knew that.

I did know that, which always helps. Hey, thanks, good friend. But no, it gave me this drive to overcome.

No, it didn't.

Yeah, it did.

Sure, it did. No, it didn't. It always goes back. There's a rosebud somewhere, and mine is my mom saying, You fat little Boona with orange hair.

You're your rosebud is your cursed puss.

Yes, my cursed puss. Yeah. It's just, look, I got a face for radio. Let's put it that way. Come on, man. No. Well, that's good that we're doing a podcast. Oh, good defense, Zona. You didn't come up with one thing. Oh, this part of you looks good. This part of you, you just went, Oh, No. Let me tell you something. For years, people have said, Hey, you're real funny. Too bad about your puss. I get that all the time.

You've never gotten that. All the time. You know what? It's not fair to talk about this after we saw Chris Hemsworth because he is a freak. He is just like a chiseled.

I know. I hate to look like that.

I know.

Awful. To go through life like that, that's a perfect puss.

That's a perfect... It's not just the puss, it's the whole package.

I'll tell you something else. What a charming fellow. I know. That's the other thing. Yeah, God damn it. That's okay. He also seems funny. He seems like he's got the whole thing. That's where I get mad.

Adam's really nodding.

He is funny. Because of Thor. He's funny.

He's a very funny actor. He's got the whole package.

I bet his Hot Ones is hysterical.

Well, it probably is. It's not important. I'm not a competitive person. I'm someone who's just happy that my Hot Ones was considered the greatest of all time. That's all by virtually every periodical. Now, let's move on.

I'm sorry. Just for my mom's sake, she doesn't think I'm ugly now.

Well, that's a big- Because everything popped out.

I felt like I made her a bad mom because she was like, You were an ugly baby, but I actually appreciated the honesty instead of her just being- You were precious.

There's no reason to be honest at that point. That's just not something you're supposed to be honest about. What do you know?

You don't have to be honest. It's like, okay, mom, you were going through a lot. You just gave birth and you had an ugly baby and you were sad about it.

That's okay. Yeah, but maybe she smushed you a bit on the way out. She smushed me. Well, you had to pass through your mother, and so maybe she smushed you. How? Please explain. Contracted. Maybe gave you a little smush So maybe it's her fault. She did it on purpose? Yeah. Maybe she felt you coming out and she said, Tell me when the face is coming out. And then they said, The face now, and she went, I smush you.

She is a cursed puss.

I smush her face. Your mother timed it. What is wrong? Your mother timed it and then did what? What are they? Hagle crunches? Kegels. I thought they were named after Dr. Hagle.

No. Whatever.

There's Hagle crunches and Kegels.

Kegel exercise.

Okay. Anyway, your mother was like, Just tell me when face come out so I can give it hard time for first 15 years.

The accent is so insulting. But also very accurate.

But tell me, doctor, tell me when face come out and I do Kegel. Then the doctor's like, Okay, if you want, and the face is out now, I swoosh you. Oh, my God.

What is wrong with you?

She's got dizzy.

Oh, no. I just laughed so hard that the blood went out of my head.

To come full circle- I swoosh you.

Who says that to their baby as it's coming out of the vaginal canal? I'm giving a look to the camera like…

To come full circle, you look at that camera and you apologize to America right now.

America, I smush you.

And my mom.

You know what you did, Nadia? You smashed her. She's beautiful now, but all those years of unsmushing, the operations, the procedures, just tell me when face passed through. Okay, that's unusual. We don't... I smush you. All right, I need a drink and I need some pills immediately. I went too far. I love your mom. Love you, Nadia, but you know what you did. Peace out, everybody.

Konan O'Brien needs a friend. With Konan O'Brien, Sonam Ofsessian, and Matt Gourley. Produced by me, Matt Gourley. Executive produced by Adam Sacks, nick Gleow, and Jeff Ross at Team Coco, and Colin Anderson and Cody Fisher at EarWolf. Theme song by the White Stripes. Incidental music by Jimmy Vivino. Take it away, Jimmy. Our supervising producer is Aaron Blair, and our associate talent producer is Jennifer Samples. Engineering and Mixing by Eduardo Perez and Brenda Burns. Additional production support by Mars Melnick. Talent Booking by Paula Davis, Gina Batista, and Brit Kohn. You can rate and review this show on Apple Podcasts, and you might find your review read on a future episode. Got a question for Konan? Call the Team Coco Hotline at 669-587-2847 and leave a message. It, too, could be featured on a future episode. And if you haven't already, please subscribe to Konan O'Brien Needs a friend wherever fine podcast fine podcasts are downloaded.