Hey, everyone.

This is Andrea Canning, and I'm here with Keith Morison, and we are talking Dateland. Hey, Keith.

Hello, Andrea.

All right. So let's dive in. This episode is called Secrets on the Emerald Coast. It's about the October 2011 disappearance of a mother of two named Marie Carlson, and the web of secrets and lies police uncovered before zeroing in on an unusual relationship and an unlikely killer. If you haven't listened to the show yet, it's the episode right below this one on the list of podcasts you can choose from. So go there, listen to it, or if you want to watch it, you can stream it on Peacock and then come back here. And when you do come back, Keith has a clip he wants to play for us from The Killer's Confession. Later, we're going to answer some of your questions about the show from social media. So stay tuned for that. Okay, Keith, let's talk Dateland.

All right. Good.

So you grabbed me from literally the first line in the show where you called Marie the dancing Sprite. What did you mean by that? She was. That's like a Keith line, I feel like, right now. I feel like you had to have written that.

Yeah, well, I didn't get the chance to meet her, unfortunately. I'd love to have met her, but this was the description of the person who I was told about, that she was that young woman.

Marie struck me as different sides to her, where on one hand, she liked to have fun, and she had this great relationship with her and she was beautiful. She was also a mother, but then she was also lost.

She had some difficulty adjusting to life, if I can put it that way. She was a free spirit. She was a lovely, talented, happy person. But then again, she could be depressed. She certainly welcomed the attention of the pastor and his wife and became a devout member of his church. And she really needed to feel at home somewhere, and they made her feel at home somewhere. And everybody in the church adored her. They thought she was wonderful. And as things progressed and got a little stranger, they continued to support her. Some people knew some things, some people didn't know some things. The sermons got a little weird. People in his church were a little puzzled when the pastor would bring up these verses that suggested polygamy wasn't a bad idea. There was polygamy going on in his own house.

A lot of secrets in this one.

A lot of secrets, yes, indeed. But Marie got pregnant. And while Marie was pregnant, it was put out by the pastor and his wife that she had an abusive boyfriend. And to escape the abusive boyfriend, she had gone to live with the pastor and his wife. They were protecting her, and she was going to have the boyfriend's child, and then that child would be at a certain point in its development, be adopted by the pastor and his wife.

That story really started to fall apart, that boyfriend story.

It did fall apart, all right. Eventually, the inner circle in the church learned that it was not a boyfriend's child, that the child was actually theirs, or the pastor's rather, and that they had used in vitro fertilization, and then it was a turkey And then it was okay.

And then it was old-fashioned.

Yeah. And not only was it old-fashioned in the real thing, but the pastor's wife was there in the bedroom when it happened.

I mean, what is she just... I was actually trying to visualize this. I'm not trying to be crude here, but I'm thinking to myself, is she sitting in a chair watching? Is she participating in this in some fashion? Do we know exactly how that went down?

Yeah, we don't know more than just the fact that she said she was in the room watching as it occurred.

They describe it as a sister-wife, right? Like, possibly another woman would come into the picture and they would all live happily ever after which doesn't always work that way.

Sure, it doesn't. But what happens, and it's happened before in other stories we've done, is that somebody who's maybe not quite as moral a preacher as one would like preach to began to read some material in the Old Testament, which suggested that having plural wives was not only a pretty good thing, but was a necessary thing for certain leaders of the community. In the Bronze Age, that was a dandy idea. They had all kinds of weird things going on. But in modern world, we don't do that thing, except that his sermons, and we read through quite a few of them, began to take on that character. But plural wives in relationships is not that uncommon in some more informal preaching situations, and it generally ends up in some difficulty.

And this one, while only involving three people, went really wrong, where that jealousy comes in, perhaps, all kinds of issues.

Yes, because Marie wanted to keep that child. She believed, I believe, that she was going to have the relationship with the pastor. The pastor would probably divorce his wife, and they would go on to have a happy life together.

Marie's sister, she just had a strange feeling from the very beginning of Marie going missing. She said something to you. She said, I watch a lot of law and order, and that's why she knew something was wrong. It is interesting when people tell us as well that they watch Dateline, and it's the same thing that that they've learned something from it or that it has them thinking about things a little more than they might have otherwise.

There are very similar kinds of behaviors that emerge. And when you see that behavior emerging, you know, pardon my use of a cliché, But that's a red flag. I got to watch that.

Yeah. We always say trust your gut, right? If something doesn't feel right, it probably isn't.

Exactly that.

When we come back, we have an extra clip from the suspect's confession.

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I was so impressed by the detective on this case. She really She latched on to it immediately. She brought it. Coming from maternity leave and having just had a baby, she felt this connection.

She had been back less than two weeks. She saw this case come up, and she made sure she was on it. She was not assigned to it. She elbowed her way onto it. And she did because her first feeling was, I know how it feels to have a baby. I wouldn't leave my baby under any circumstances whatsoever. Her. How could I believe this young woman would have left her baby? And she just didn't believe that was possible. And that's what drove her. And she was a star of the investigation. She was, however, the one who was so heartbroken that she had searched that backyard where Marie's body was eventually found and came so close but couldn't find it. And so then the three-year delay before they finally got the confession.

I felt really bad for her when she talks about, I was there, and I missed it somehow, or I didn't do enough, or however she was feeling.

She really beat herself up.

Yeah, it was right under their noses, that piece of the puzzle.

But eventually, the husband agreed to plea guilty to what manslaughter, I think it was, and took a 15-year sentence.

The family was quite disappointed in the manslaughter charge in the plea deal. Not not enough.

Well, and when you look at the circumstances of what happened, the eventual confession, you can see why they would be disappointed. If a conviction for first-degree murder requires no more than a few seconds of contemplation of what you're going to do, as we are told repeatedly by prosecutors, is what it requires, then first-degree murder would have been a reasonable charge to bring. And so I don't blame the family at all. The trouble was they couldn't prove it. And I think that's why our detective was so upset with herself, because had they found that body when they did, she felt they could have made the case.

Well, yeah. If it in the backyard, hard to explain that away. Do you think that James planned to kill Marie, or do you think it was in the moment?

I don't know. The The story, I hesitate to use the word evidence, but the sequence of events suggests that he and Tania, maybe especially him, realized they had a problem. And Marie had gone from being a delightful companion in their house to being problematic. She wasn't going to give up the baby, and that was a real problem. They had to figure out a way to make that happen.

Are there some people who think Tania was involved, that she knows way more than she's saying.

Yes, there are some who, I think, would tell you to this day they were convinced she was involved, that she knew more. Yes. But there's no evidence for that. There's no way to prove it.

And if she did, James certainly didn't throw her under the bus.

No, not at all.

You have more of James's confession to investigators that did not air in the episode. Let's take a listen to that.

Did you get a You were buried before Tania came back? Oh, yeah. Yeah. And you're on a farm. And that's one thing I can do is just dig. When I was with the dig, it was hard. And I was in the dark during the day until I couldn't go anymore. And I just got to eat, et cetera. I was buried, and I went back to the house and I looked at myself, covered in pink dirt, and I took off my shirt and my pants and shoes, and then I jumped in the shower.

Well, that is raw listening to him talk about that, those final moments there. A far cry from who he was. He's this cool pastor in the jeans and sneakers in a strip mall. He's on YouTube.

Right. And again, loved by his congregation, and he was charismatic, and he was a good preacher. It was one of those upbeat four-squared gospel-type churches, but he was good. He was an effective preacher.

You can only imagine how explosive this must have been for the members of that church.

It's not a church anymore. It was a strip mall, and it went back to being a strip mall after All of this ended.

His official title was Pastor? Yes. Would you say he's more like a preacher?

They're interchangeable. They give them different names. My father was, he would have called himself a Minister. He ministered a people, Minister of a Certain Church. It was the United Church of Canada, actually. You're familiar with it. Yes. But if the specialty was preaching great sermons, they'd get called preachers. If they were known for their ability with caring for people, they'd be pastors. Sometimes there's no formal definition. It goes back and forth. What is true is that preachers, pastors, ministers, ministers call them what you will. Priests are like other people. We put them on a pedestal, and we believe that they're going to be perfect in every way, and they're never going to do terrible things. And very few of them do, but some do. And in recent years, we've seen so many scandals of people who have supposedly been above any criticism, have been men or women of God, particularly men of God, and have abused children, and have gotten themselves into all kinds of trouble.

And And also have ended up in a lot of Dateland episodes.

And they've ended up in Dateland episodes.

Killing people. I mean, we've done quite a few.

We have. I shall never forget being in a prison in San Diego talking to a preacher who had murdered his younger, plural, wife because she had become a problem for them, and cut her up into little bits and took her out and buried her in a caren in the desert. When I was trying to question him about his views on various theological issues and how he managed to find a way to rationalize that behavior, He said, I'm not that concerned about what will happen after I die. I'm going to meet my young wife again and we'll all be together, my older wife, my younger wife, and me and our children, and we'll all be happy again.

You might be going in another direction. You never know. You might not be heading to heaven after that. I mean, Keith, I have to say you are one of the kindest people I know, and you're such a thoughtful person about everything. Do you think any of that came from being the child of a minister, or was it- Well, yeah.

I'm not compared to most people, probably.

Oh, my gosh. Stop. Of course you are.

But it does. Yeah. My father was the sweetest man who ever lived.

Do you think that's where... Not to take away from your mom, but- I hope so.

I hope it's where it came from. My mother was wonderful, too. But He remains, though he's been dead many years, he remains a guiding post of life for me.

Well, that's so nice. Do you feel like he impacted a lot of people in his time?

Oh, Yeah, he really did in his kind and charismatic way, but kindness, mostly.

I'm so glad we have a positive example of a minister. Okay, after the break, we'll be back to answer some of your questions from social media. So, Keith, we have a lot of viewer questions about this episode, this very salacious episode with that thruple element. Mz cat64 on the lines of the thruple says, Anything that has to be secretive is not good. Five exclamation marks. Poor Marie Carlson.

You can only sympathize with that idea. It's very true. Unfortunately, it's a rule that gets broken all the time. Secrecy is pretty common when sexual relationships are involved.

All right, this is from work Right calm. So he killed Marie and buried her 5 feet deep before Tania came back, and Tania never noticed that her yard had been dug up, not buying it.

Reasonable speculation, a reasonable suspicion, I should say.

I think a lot of people who saw this episode, myself included, were thinking the same thing, that it is hard to believe that Tania didn't know anything.

As we did the story, we were feeling that, too. It's hard to believe. It may be, but it's hard to believe.

And again, she was never arrested, never charged with anything. This is from at Denny, with four Ns and two I's. Denny, at Denny. James doesn't deserve a deal, but anything to find Marie's body at this point.

That is exactly what the police thought. They didn't think he deserved a deal either, but they couldn't prove otherwise.

So it was like, let's get something here. We may not get everything we want, but let's get him behind bars.

We can find her body. We can give her family some answers, and we can...Put him away.get something against him, at least.

All right. Ron, 67592179. No wonder Marie wanted James. She just wanted someone to care for her after all those years. Very sad.

Yeah, I'd agree.

Yeah, it's like Marie was searching for something I feel like her whole life. It almost started from when she was little girl finding out that this man was her father. It just seems like... I mentioned it right near the top that she was lost.

Yes, I think that's a good way of describing it. She was, and they made her feel at home, but they were not to be believed necessarily. Who knew? I mean, your minister, your preacher, your pastor tells you that you're safe in this situation, and his wife, who's a wonderful woman, makes you feel safe, too. And the gradual submission into a thruple relationship didn't happen overnight, obviously. And Marie seemed to enter into it voluntarily. He was a Vibrant, interesting man. And apparently, both he and his wife thought that was a great idea. So she did.

He's supposed to be safe in that role. This is supposed to be someone who can help you and listen to you and guide you.

If you can't have faith in your pastor, who can you have faith in?

All right, Keith, on that note, thank you for that fascinating episode.

Well, thank you. It was pretty interesting, all right, to follow around.

That is our Talking Dateland for this week. Thanks so much, Keith, and thanks everyone for listening to us. Remember, if you have any questions for us about our stories or Dateland, reach out to us on social at datelandnbc. See you Fridays on on NBC. Also be sure to check out the newest season of our podcast, Dateline Missing in America, featuring missing person cases brought to our attention by our followers on social media. All episodes are available to listen to now wherever you get your podcasts.