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So today's guest on the podcast is Patrick Gagny, who identifies as sociopath and has written a memoir called Sociopath. And I'm in Greece shooting Malice, a limited series here, and I'm thinking about Greek gods because they figure into the show a little bit, but also because I grew up loving Greek mythology. Edith Hamilton's book on mythology was by my bedside all the time, and I just ingested the Greek gods and their misbehaviors. They were horrible to one another and horrible to humans. They were constantly raping and killing and being jealous of humans and transforming themselves into swans and bulls and just these incredible stories of the gods. As I got older, I realized, well, they're just mirroring the worst of human behavior, or let's say, the extremes of human behavior, what human behavior is capable of, or at least metaphorically capable of, these transformations, these acts of violence, these acts of transgression. It started me to think about sociopathy when I was thinking about interviewing Patrick Agne. Here I am in Greece, the of these awesome myths and amazing transgressive gods and goddesses. I'm talking to a transgressive figure, a person who, by label, would be feared, by label, would be an outcast.

We ascribe sociopaths certain powers. If they do have certain powers, different powers, let's say, from us, then let's talk to her. Let's talk to them. Let's figure out what we can learn from one another as we once learned from the gods. I'm David Ducouveny, and this is Fail Better, a show where failure, not success, shapes who we are. Patrick Gagny is a writer, former therapist, advocate for people suffering from antisocial disorders, and a sociopath. Her book is called Sociopath, a Memoir. But what is a sociopath, you might ask. It's a tricky and layered answer, but basically it's someone who can progress through normal emotional development, but they learn these social emotions like love, empathy, even jealousy, differently than the rest of us. Patrick is a very interesting person because she knew she was different from a young age. She describes a pressure that she would feel building up to act out. She wanted to break out of it, break out of a state of apathy sometimes, of non-reaction. And she'd lie, manipulate. She'd break into houses when no one was home and just wander around. As she got older, she eventually tried to better understand her mental state and got that diagnosis of sociopathy and eventually learned how to behave in a socially acceptable manner because as she says, she didn't feel compelled morally to act this way, but she wanted to stay out of trouble.

She wanted to stay out of prison. She wanted a life. And she knew that if she didn't get her behavior under control, that was going to be an impossibility. So I started out by asking her why she wrote this book.

I think, simply put, I wrote this book because I was trying to put a humanized understanding of an otherwise dehumanized disorder. I was diagnosed with sociopathy, and at the time, the definition was very much what it is now, which is sensationalized and one-dimensional. And I had this life experience. I found some research that seemed to explain that experience, and I wanted to write this book to reach other people who resonate with that experience. It's essentially research wrapped in a narrative. And by that, I mean it's a story about a child who was very different, who grew into an in a relentless pursuit of understanding. It's a story of how someone was able to identify and live with a diagnosis of sociopathy and what that journey of learning emotions and learning behaviors has been.

When you came out with this book, is there an identified sociopathic community of any kind? I don't think so. Did you get any... Because it's basically a coming out. It's a coming out. Here I am. This is who I am. So did you get a reaction either from a community, your family, whatever?

Yeah. And I misunderstood the question. I thought you meant an established community. No, I have been overwhelmed by the reaction that I've received from people who identify with my personality type, who have received similar diagnosis. And the through is consistent. These are people who have managed to cobble together some semblance of a normal existence, but they are very much living behind a mask. I assumed that would be the case. I assumed, based on the research, that there would be enough people who would identify that I would hear from them, and I have. It's been just a collective sense of, I think, relief would be the best word, and that aligns with my own experience. It was this feeling of, obviously, getting a diagnosis of sociopathic personality disorder. I think most people would not be relieved to have received it, but I think that really speaks to the personality type.

There's good news and bad news.

Yes. Well, it also it's like, all right.

I got a diagnosis.

Yes. I am not alone. There are at least enough people like me to have a personality disorder And I'm okay with that. And that seems to be shared by those who identified with the book in that I always knew that I wasn't alone or suspected, but now I have proof. This is my experience as well. And I was expecting that, but what I wasn't expecting was the number of neurotypical individuals who were also reaching out, recognizing their friends, recognizing their parents.

Now, when you say that, when you're talking about this to me, I'm feeling emotional because I'm feeling happy for you. And I wonder, do you feel that way?

Do I feel that way about the people who are reaching out to me?

Just about yourself? Yeah, just finding Brethren, finding kindred spirits, finding- Yes. Some community?

Yes. I do feel happy Although I had always known they were out there. So for me, it's- But I mean the feeling that you get. I see.

How do you describe that?

All right. So I think what you're talking about is an inherent emotion. So there are these inherent emotions that everyone is born with. It's the factory setting. Okay. So these are anger, anticipation, joy, trust, fear, surprise, sadness, happiness, and disgust. Everyone is born with these emotions. And so when you hear people talk about, oh, sociopaths don't feel, that's not accurate. We are all born with these inherent emotions, and sociopaths, like everyone else, has access to those. Where we struggle is with another set of emotions, the social emotions, okay? Examples of these are embarrassment, guilt, love, shame, envy, empathy, even Jealousy and pride to a certain extent. These are not inherent emotions. These are learned. Everyone learns these emotions, typically through modeling of friends, parent, caregiver. Sociopaths have a harder time learning these emotions.

Do you remember feeling that back then, even as a child? Yes. Because can you talk to me about what it felt like?

Yeah, for sure. I remember being a kid, and I had a sister, a younger sister. I have a younger sister. But I remember seeing her experiencing the world differently. Because I had this relationship with my sister, I understood what complex emotional development looked like, but I also understood that I didn't have it. I would watch her internalize things like shame or guilt. My sister has oceans of guilt, and I just never had it. And For me, the social emotions, it was like needing glasses. Without my glasses, I'm physically capable of reading. It's just that sometimes I really have to squint. And that's a lot like how I experience the social emotions. And it's also how I remember feeling as a kid, just, Oh, yeah, these kids say that they feel badly when they do this, and I don't feel badly when I do this. So I need to fake it. I need to act like I do.

Did you think maybe, Oh, I'm bad?

No, I never did. I remember I started to wonder when I was seeing myself in the sociopathic checklist, and then I would read things about sociopaths or psychopaths, and it was always that serial killer, that monster, every manner of evil. I remember thinking, Okay, so is this just a foregone conclusion for me? Because I didn't.

I never felt bad. That's terrifying. Well, me in your head thinking back, that's terrifying. No, it was.

It was for me as well. No, and I want to make that clear. My sense of fear is there. It might be muted. I might have a higher tolerance for it, but it's there. And I was scared. I remember thinking, just the idea that I have no control over how I'm going to evolve. If this is my personality type and everyone who identifies with this personality body type ends up in prison or murdering people, then I'm fucked and I got to figure this out. So I like being unnoticed, essentially. I like being perceived as, Oh, this is the cute little kid. And I understood that if I acknowledge Which, you know what? I actually don't have any remorse or guilt or shame. And I don't know that I ever will have any of those things. Saying that usually made adults very uncomfortable.

I can imagine.

Right. But That's what I'm trying to say is that as a kid, kids are smart. They pick up on things. I understood that I was different almost at the exact same time I understood that acknowledging that difference was a bad idea.

That feeling of difference. I wonder if you experienced this part of yourself as a failure, as I'm broken, as there's something wrong with me, or this is just another version of life. Consequently, this is too complicated a question, but I also want to get to when did you decide that you wanted have feelings? Were you not happy the way you were? When did you decide, Oh, I want to be more like those other people?

So to the first part of your question-Sorry. No, no, no. I know. There's so much good questions, and I just want to answer them all. I remember, I never... I don't think I recall feeling like a failure or bad. But what did speak to me when you were talking was, did you feel broken? Yes. I didn't feel bad, but I felt broken. I felt there is something wrong with me. Full stop, no question. And it really wasn't until I understood the personality type in that, okay, so you don't just grow up and become a serial killer. You aren't a foregone conclusion. You aren't a lost cause. Once I understood that and I had that agency, that's when I realized, okay, I'm not wrong. I'm just different. There's nothing I can do about it. I don't want to live my life behind a mask, but I also don't want to live my life without access to society. I enjoy having friends, not a lot, but I enjoy having some friends. I enjoy conversations like this. I enjoy the white picket fence. I enjoy peeking in and out of my windows within that white picket fence, But I understood, in order to be a member of society, you have to assimilate.

And when I made that decision, it was selfishly driven, of course, but it was also, I can't change who I am, but I'm also not going to mask it anymore either. I'm just going to lean into who I am and be more honest about it.

And it sounds like as a kid, somehow you were smart enough to figure out your own nature and how to try to fit it And how to not go to jail, basically, is what I hear you saying. It's like, I want to have a life, and I don't want to end up in jail.

And I also understood... I don't remember where or when I read this, but I remember... I want to say it was the FBI. It was some career where a criminal record automatically eliminated you from having the ability to pursue it. And I remember thinking, Well, that sucks. I don't want to be told- By the I don't think that's a thing anymore, looking at our financial landscape. I agree. And yet the rules do still apply for some and not for others. Yes, exactly. But I remember reading that and saying, No, you're not going to tell me that I can't have a career doing X, Y, or Z just because of a criminal record. So I remember not wanting to go to jail, not wanting to be arrested, not for any real moral reasons, but because I don't want to be told that my My life choices are now limited as a result of this. I also remember understanding that everyone was living in this box of feeling. It was a small box of emotion. And it's certainly not actually. If anything, everyone has these colorful emotions, whereas my world was more in black and white. But it was, you have to be in this box.

You have to have these feelings. You have to feel this way. I remember that rebellion kicking in and like, no, I don't, actually. But you know what I can do? I can get in your little box and I can act just like you, and I can pretend to have all these feelings just like you. Then when you're not paying attention, I'm going to step out of my box, but I'm still going to watch, and I'm still going to have all of these things to my advantage. So this coping mechanism, the manipulation, the lying, the destructive behavior, that ultimately evolved into a lifestyle.

You say in the book, What's so uncomfortable in your skin was this sense of apathy. So then you go and you commit some petty crime, which I want you to talk about, and that gives you some feeling, and then you're feeling a little better.

What I ultimately realized, at first I did, I thought it was apathy. I thought it was, I don't like to feel apathetic. But what I came to understand was that it wasn't the apathy that was driving this pressure. I speak about this in the book, about how I felt this pressure. At first I thought it was related to apathy, but what I have ultimately come to believe is that it wasn't just the apathy, it was the understanding that once I fell into an apathetic place and I couldn't get out of it, if I didn't somehow do something to jolt myself into feeling or meet others' expectations of what I was supposed to be feeling, that I would be outed. So as a child- That you would be outed, but also you would go further.

Not only that, but you would go further at some point.

Eventually, I realized that ignoring that pressure was the quickest way to fall into a place of being out of control.

So you're just releasing a little bit, a little bit, a little bit.

Yes. But it's interesting because although I understood this consciously as an adult, as an adult, I had been engaging in small acts of deviance as a kid, and those acts of deviance became more extreme as I got older.

Can you describe what those things give you?

Yes. When I was a kid, and this is such an interesting... It's really a testament to the power of the unconscious mind. When I was a kid, I didn't understand this. All I knew is that if I would feel this pressure, and I understood on some level that stealing this backpack- What does the pressure feel like? It feels similar to what I've heard people with OCD describe, just this cluster phobia. I got to do something, I got to do something, I got to do something, I got to do something, I got to do something. And the more you don't engage or diffuse that, the greater the compulsion, the greater the urge. So people who have OCD can't really explain to you why they feel driven to count or engage in repetitive behaviors, washing their hands, checking the door locks, et cetera. Similarly, as a kid, I couldn't explain to you why I felt compelled to stab this kid or steal that backpack or break into that house. All I knew was that, just do it. Just do it, you'll feel better. And I did.

Almost like hearing a voice, sounds like a voice of some kind.

Yeah, like a compulsion, an urge. Just do it.

I've done some of this research before speaking to you, and often they'll talk about people getting better at what they do. For instance, they'll attack a child first because it's more defenseless. But it's not that they're just going to attack children. They're getting better at murdering. Was there any sense to you? Did you fear at some point that this is not just letting the valve off, letting the pressure off, but I'm actually getting better at this, and this is fucked up.

Yes, I did understand that. I understood that, I want to say, when I was in my 20s, I realized this is not something on which I want to rely for the rest of my life, which is part of what contributed to my decision to seek or experiment with different treatment modalities. Interventions because I understood that I was getting better, and I understood that I was getting older. And I also was, and I've said this before, I'm very clear on the fact that I am a white woman of privilege. I understand that now, but I understood that then. And I understood that had I come from a different socioeconomic background, had I been a different- You're saying it was easier to get away with shit? A hundred %. But I understood that. But I also knew that it wasn't a guarantee. I remember as a kid thinking, I could do anything I want because your record will be sealed. Anything prior to 18. I remember having that knowledge. So I'm really good And I remember coming of age and realizing, all right, you no longer have a safety net underneath you. Anything you do from this point forward will stay with you forever.

You're going to have to figure out how to be smarter. And ultimately, I realized, no, you're going to have to figure out how to do it without the destructive coping mechanisms, because it really is just a matter of time. No matter how charming you are, you're going to get caught. That's just what's going to happen. And when that happens, you're going to be screwed.

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Com/failbetter. Tired of not being able to get a hold of anyone when you have questions about your credit card? With 24/7 US-based live customer service from Discover, everyone has the option to talk to a real person anytime, day or night. Yeah, you heard that right. You can talk to a human on the Discover customer service team anytime. So the next time you have a question about your credit card, call 1-800-Discover to get the service you deserve. Limitations apply. See terms at discover. Com/credit card. Sometimes when I invest in something new, it can act as this reset. It fuels my mood and motivation. I feel this new sense of inspiration, itching to learn how to use my new tennis ragged or really a new guitar, a beautiful new guitar that will inspire me to practice more, to write more. It could be anything, from cooking equipment to a new self-help book to a new vehicle, something that pushes you to live up to your potential. When we own exceptional things, they inspire us to do exceptional things. The all-new Lexus GX has an exceptional capability that will have you seeing possibilities you never knew existed. It's advancing Its technology and luxurious interior mean that wherever you go, you'll never go without.

The Lexus GX has features available like a dynamic sky panorama glass roof. Imagine that. Front row massaging seats, 33-inch all-terrain tires, and multi-terrain select. This luxury vehicle sets a new standard for excellence, because when we strive for excellence, we stop making excuses. That's when we can feel a difference. Live up to the all-new Lexus GX. Luxury beyond limits. Experience amazing at your Lexus dealer. Your relationship with your mother and father is very interesting to me because your dad's a little manipulative. Your dad does some pretty shady things in the book. Some? A little? I don't want to throw dads under the bus, but he's like... You do talk in the book about people using you because you'll do the dirty work without feeling bad. But what I want to get to is that even though your mom, you didn't share with her, she might not have understood. She might have had the fear of it or whatever. She loved you. When we talk about epigenetic and that shit in nature versus nurture, it's not so much like, Oh, I identify the disorder. I'm going to help you. I'm going to eat your drug. I'm going to eat your therapy, whatever.

But love, some acceptance. If your gene for what you have was going to turn at some point, if you had a different upbringing, is that something that you feel? Is that something that you feel with other sociopaths?

I I really do. I believe sociopathy stems from a genetic predisposition that can be unlocked, so to speak, by environmental stressors, that genetics and environment interact with each other to produce symptoms. But to your point, because I had a mother who taught me very early, or that my relationship with my mother, my sister, my father, I love them. I loved them. So I knew that very early. So later on, when I saw- But wait, what do you mean when you say love?

Because I'm not sure that we understand that word when it comes out of your mouth.

And I agree with you. And it's the same for me because All I have is my interpretation of that.

That's all we all have. Let's be clear. Love is just a word.

But when I look at neurotypical people, or when I listen to them describe it, and I've said this before, it sounds crazy, but I understand that love is that be all, end all of neurotypical emotions. But for me, I experienced it less emotionally. It was more of a matter of fact. I didn't have those sweeping overwhelming feelings that my mother or sister certainly demonstrate. But I love you. I love you. And the reason that I know that is because I care about what happens to you, and I don't want to see you in pain, and I will follow to the ends of the Earth anyone who's trying to hurt you. I don't think that my sister or my mother or some of my friends would fall in that ladder category. I think that they would be really mad at somebody who hurt me, but I'll end you if you hurt someone who hurt someone I love. And that's how I understand love.

But let's just say what I'm I'm fascinated, theoretically, and this is dangerous territory, I think, and I hesitate to talk about it, but fuck it. It's like, sometimes I think we're more like an ant colony than we like to admit, and that certain people are born with certain proclivities because that's how the hives, ants don't have hives. Let's say we're bees. I get it. So who are our warriors? But people who are okay with battle, people who don't have fear, people who are okay with hurting the enemy or fighting the enemy or killing the enemy. And so aside from being a spectrum, you call it a disorder, I can look at it as something just the I don't know how else to put it. We all have a place, I guess, is what I'm saying. And nature is a genius and creates the right pegs to fit in the right holes.

I really agree. And see, you can say that, and I'm glad you did because- You can't say that? Well, the last thing I want is anyone to think that I'm romanticizing this disorder.

Do you feel that was romanticizing it?

No, no, no. But coming from me, I can see that people are going to push back on. There was an article that ran about me. It said something like, LA Mom is a sociopath and loves it. I thought it was funny.

You know what? I read reviews of your book, and I thought They were snarky. The New York Times one, talking about your photographic memory. Well, there's so many books you can attack, memoirs that you can attack like that. I was pissed off reading those. I'm sure you were as well.

You know what? I really wasn't pissed off. I was disappointed because it was lazy to me. That's what I felt it. It felt petty and lazy.

It is lazy.

Listen, I knew that in writing this book, I was going to be met with a certain level skepticism. I identify myself as a liar on the first page of the book. The first paragraph, I think, even. I get it. What I wasn't anticipating was the degree to which some people would intentionally disregard facts in order to justify an inaccurate narrative. Understand, all I'm trying to do is expand the conversation. This isn't a zero-sum game. This isn't if I'm right, you're wrong, and if you're right, I'm wrong. So let's talk about it. Let's expand the research. Let's find more treatment options. Let's investigate different modalities. There's a much more elevated conversation we could be having. So it's mystifying to me that people want to pit my life experience against the pop cultural definition of sociopathy or apply skepticism to my name or my degrees, things that are just so easy to fact check. I think that ultimately, I represent an inconvenient truth in that people want to believe that all monsters look like monsters. All sociopaths are monsters, therefore, they're easy to spot. So I don't have to wonder whether I'm sleeping next to one or whether I birthed one or whether I'm one.

They want things to be neat and clean. But that's not reality. And to your point, I think that there is a tremendous advantage in certain elements of the sociopathic personality Well, first of all, you have a sense of humor, which I didn't think sociopaths had.

It's charm. Not just because you're, Oh, it's just charm, so you're faking it? You're not really- No, I'm not faking it.

But I think that for me, that was the easiest- You can tell me the truth.

Yeah.

I think that's the easiest way to For me, humor was always the easiest way to diffuse discomfort.

Yeah. So just like, you call us neurotypical. I think that's a weird term, but I don't think anybody's typical. But let's say, what can you tell us from the land of your land?

For the longest time when I was coming on this podcast, I thought it was fall better. I thought the name of it was fall better. And then I was like, Oh, no, it's fail better. And I think that I don't know. I think that just that name indicates an understanding that there is no such thing as failure. Everything brings you to the next space. And certainly it's easy for me to say because I don't have that feeling of failure. And again, which is not to say that I can't fail, that I can't do a poor job, but I don't internalize it that way. So if I- Why not? It just doesn't land with me that way.

Does this have something to do with you say at some point in the book, and please correct me when I misquote you, or in the checklist of sociopathy, inability to learn from mistakes?

Well, no, because I do.

It's my theory that mistakes have to hurt to learn.

And if you can't be heard- Yeah, I don't think they do.

Yeah, okay. So please talk to me about that.

I'm trying to think of... Okay, well, this is the only one that's coming to mind that I can connect to a sadness. And that was a failure. And even though I'm going to get an instant pushback because this isn't a failure. But this is the only one that I can remember having an emotional reaction to. And that was I had a number of miscarriages. I stopped counting at five. And I remember feeling sadness and frustration and rage. I can only assume that that's what a lot of neurotypical people experience when they have that sense of failure, which is that I have done something wrong. I am not good enough to produce what I want to produce. And that leads to shame and to guilt and to remorse and regret. But when you don't have those emotional constructs that are keeping you tethered, you have to look to an external philosophy. And if I write something that I don't like, or if I have pursued something that I didn't get, I don't remember ever feeling that shame, or I'm not good enough, or I need to work harder, or I need to do better. I just remember thinking, All right, I'm just going to figure something else out.

That's the superpower. I hate to tell you.

I think so. I agree. I agree with you, but a lot of people don't want to hear that.

Why not? I mean, I know you're a therapist, and you work, I think, mostly with people who have sociopathic tendencies, right?

Not anymore, but yeah.

If you had somebody in therapy, say me, and I'm saying, Fuck, I can't get over this thing, and this was a failure, and it's just sitting with me. What do we do?

I think that's where, therapeutically, I was able to offer something that not every other therapist could, which is, they talk about in the therapeutic process, you will lend your patients or you go Lending of ego strength is common. You have that in space. I would just send them sociopathic strength. It's okay. So let's take a look at the feelings that you have and let's observe them objectively. And be Because I wasn't coming to my practice with my own typical emotional baggage, my emotional experience never played a part in that. So I would have individuals disclosing all types of things that might make someone else react emotionally. Whereas for me, it was more... I didn't come to it emotionally. I came to it objectively. You have shame because of this thing that you can't get past. Let's talk about it. Let's get into it. Let's process it. And I think maybe even unconsciously, somebody seeing another person in front of them not having a Pearl clutching reaction or even a reaction at all, diffuses, takes the sting out of it a little bit.

It's a little different from, say, neurotypical therapy, where the therapist would model consolation or grief or empathy. So you're modeling objectivity, and for lack of a better term, just get over it. Let's Let's go. Let's go.

Let's get over it, but just not... Because my goal wasn't just get over it, it was observation. So it wasn't hurry up and get over it. It was, Oh, wow, let me observe this. Oh, that's interesting. So this thing happened to you. This was your reaction to it, and now you're carrying this reaction into all of these other reactions. And have you noticed that? Have you thought, did you notice that this action right here from 10 years ago looks a lot like this from yesterday? Isn't that interesting?

You're not clouded by any emotional reaction to the story. And you can just see the plot points and you go, Hey, you're just in an endless loop of repetition here.

Yeah. As opposed to, You fucking idiot. You did that 10 years.

Do you not see what you're- It's a nice way of saying you fucking idiot, but it can help.

You're helping them come to a place of observation, too, as opposed to reliving this trauma, reliving this shame, sitting in it, and certainly all of those things are helpful, and that occurs, too. But ultimately, it's observation and helping them, people, be more objective about what's going on with them, as opposed to this endless cycle of guilt and remorse and grief and shame.

Yeah. That's the ticket out, if possible.

Yeah, I think so.

Okay, we did it. I was wrong. We solved it. That's the end of the podcast. We're ready to move on to something else.

Thanks, guys. Thanks, everybody.

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Yeah.

The clinical understanding is that it hovers right around 5% of the population.

So we're talking about millions upon millions of people.

Millions. Millions of people. But when you consider that most of the diagnostic interviews for sociopathy and psychopathy take place within the prison system, there's no way that number isn't likely considerably higher. But even if we were just talking about 5%, that's roughly the same percentage as those suffering from depressive disorders, bipolar, borderline personality disorders. And yet if you walk into a bookstore, you will find dozens of books on every personality type, every disorder, every psychological ailment known to man, except for sociopathy or psychopathy. There are no self-help books. There are no support groups. There are books for those who have been victimized of sociopaths and psychopaths, but there's nothing for that personality type, specifically. It's because of that stigma.

It's just lazy Hollywood writers are your problem.

Well, and not just Hollywood writers.

Because depressive people can't drive a plot. They just lie in bed moping.

Well, if it bleeds, it bleeds. It's a lot more fun, I think.

And you're saying in the book, you call it a spectrum disorder, which to me, it's tough. Because once you say spectrum, all of a sudden it's very hazy. All of a sudden what I had was a diagnosis, and now what I've got is a mood. Yeah.

Certainly there are going to be those extreme examples, as there are with lots of different personalities personality types. But there are also individuals that fall on the mild to moderate side for whom treatment is possible, for whom self-awareness is possible. Learning, as you say. I think it's really important to understand that because the research indicates that the majority of the individuals who fall under the sociopathic umbrella are those mild to moderate cases. I think as long as continue to define sociopathy by the extreme examples, we're going to miss the opportunity to address the individuals for whom treatment is not only possible, but effective, potentially, especially when we're talking about juveniles.

You write about this in the book, and it's, to me, a major part of the book, and something that I'm very interested in from the experience I had when my daughter was nine months old and she got very ill, and I was afraid she was going to die. And I disconnected in a way because I was terrified. And you talk about having this maybe a fantasy of when you're going to give birth, you're going to feel that love, and it doesn't happen. And can you talk a little about that? And again, I would go back to if you could also address it as, did you feel like a failure? I mean, if you said that to a mom, Oh, my life It didn't change as soon as my child was born. I didn't feel that overwhelming thing, which is what you write in the book. Can you talk a little about that?

Yeah, and that's a really good point. I never made that connection, that I probably did feel like a failure in that moment. But what I felt... So I felt when my son was born and I didn't have that instant connection to him, I remember. It was rage. It wasn't sadness. It was rage.

And I remember- Who's the rage directed at?

Me. Because I understood that unconsciously I had been holding out hope that this would be the one time that emotion would not be robbed from me. And it wasn't playing out on a conscious level because I remember I had I had been through the graduations, I had been through the weddings. I'd been through all of these markers that are supposed to elicit these reactions. But this was it. If it wasn't going to happen here, it wasn't going to happen. I instantly understood that I had been holding out hope, and I was so angry at myself. It's like, what have you done? This whole experience now is once again proof that you can't feel, only now you've brought a small person into it. And what if you never feel for this kid? Like, way to go. Way to go. Mom, excellent job. And just this just fury at myself for having been so foolish. But once that part calmed down, and I...

How How long?

Probably a couple of months, weeks to months.

At that point, are you having trouble being with the baby?

Oh, yeah. I just went through the motions. I did what I needed to do. But again, without that emotional component, I understood that it was lacking. But I also understood there was something I could do about it. But after the rage came down, that's when I settled into the, Yeah, there's something I could do about this. I didn't choose this. All I have is this toolkit. That's what I got. And there are some tools missing, but there are also some tools added. So if I can look at this from From that lens, I think that I could be a good mom. I might not be a typical mom. I might not be like everyone else's mom or all the other moms on the block, but I also don't give a shit. So as long as my child is not being hurt, as long as I can give him what he needs, and when I can't, I know to bring in others who can, it's going to be okay. And I remember later reading about the postpartum depression and the experience of women that suffer from that, and also being better equipped to treat that as a clinician, because up until that point, I didn't really have any understanding of that, and my experience grew that understanding.

It was also nice to feel that although other women were not experiencing this necessarily based on sociopathy, they were having a similar experience, and they figured it out. So I'll figure it out, too.

Well, that gets back to you have this access to the non-apathetic version of Zen detachment. You have an access to what all the housewives in Beverly Hills are paying so much money to try to get, to try and be none. We all valorize non-attachment in this society. This is the Holy Grail. Then when we show it, we're vilified, though. When we show it in action, we are vilified. For instance, it would be caring for the planet more than the fucking people destroying it from time to time. So how do you experience other people's sense of Zen attachment or non-attachment? How do you experience that in neurotypical people? And can you describe it in yourself? What it feels like?

Well, it's funny because you referenced... It's what every housewife in Beverly Hills is trying to attain, myself included, by the way. I was one of those women that spent thousands of dollars to take one of these advanced meditation- You had it.

What were you doing?

I remember walking around Brentwood. We're all going to take a walk now. We're just going to be with the trees, and we're not going to say anything. We're not going to have any reaction or emotion. I remember we were walking around, I was like, This is it?

This is what I do every day. I can already do this.

I remember laughing about it with the guy leading it who's this extraordinary guru named Steve Ross, who I just think I adore.

I know Steve Ross.

God, he's the best. You mean the yoga teacher? Yes, we laugh about that to this day.

I've known Steve for 30 years, probably. Good friends of my brother.

I love him. I've probably known him for about 20 years. And he was like, I didn't understand why you were doing this. But my interpretation of others' detachment is that it is It's an effort and it's strenuous.

Well, as you have to make an effort to feel, they have to make an effort to not feel. So we can have sympathy maybe for one another and try to meet in some a middle. But maybe you have, again, your approach or your natural approach to failure, maybe you have some insight from the other side of what non-attachment is like and what it feels like. I don't know what I'm asking, but if you've thought about these things.

Yeah, no. From what I understand, it's so much of the clutter in the neurotypical mind comes from shame and guilt and what other people are thinking, this fear, this need to people please, this fear that they're not doing enough, that they aren't enough.

You really don't care what people think of you.

I really don't.

Not one bit.

I really don't. God bless you. God bless. Now, listen, that is different from not caring when I have hurt someone who I care. I hear you. Yeah, but no, I don't. I don't care. Not at all.

Let's go back to that New York Times, because when the New York Times doesn't like me, I hurt. You didn't hurt.

No, I was frustrated for the others like me.

What do you mean, the others like you? Other sociopath?

Other people who had done with my personality type. I was contacted by a magazine who wanted to write a profile on me. The fact checkers wanted to vet my credentials, proof of my degrees, proof of my clinical work. They wanted a copy of my dissertation. No problem. We sent it over. They acknowledged receipt. And yet when the article ran, it said, and I'm paraphrasing, While Patrick claims to have a PhD, we were unable to find evidence of it online, which was intentionally misleading. And that's when it dawned on me, Oh, it's not that you don't believe me. It's that you don't want to believe me. You would rather stick with your one-dimensional understanding of sociopathy because it sells, because what I'm saying is It's not as sexy as the serial killer composite.

No, I don't agree with that. What you're saying demands a lot of work.

Yes. Okay. Yeah, it's lazy. This isn't about me. This has nothing to do with me at all. This has to do with the word sociopath, the emotion it evokes in people, which I find endlessly fascinating that this personality, this word sociopath, which is synonymous with lack of feeling, actually elicits the most feeling. It's problematic, not really for me when something like that happens, but for others like me who are going to be less inclined to come forward because the climate is still so charged. I don't have that sadness or, Oh, I wish you liked me. It's just not there. It's just not there.

That's a superpower, if ever I heard. No, I'm not even making a joke. I wanted to ask you a lightning round. First, I wanted to ask you, do you think there's a difference between male and female sociopath?

A hundred %. And that's one of the things that I really hope. I've had this conversation with other clinicians, and I've had this conversation with actual researchers, people whose life is research. And in that, I find a tremendous amount of gender bias in the diagnostics, one of which being one of the dominant traits of sociopathy and psychopathy is social dominance. And the way that they have determined psychopaths and sociopaths assert social dominance is through overt physical aggression. But that was never the case for me. The way that I always asserted social dominance was through charm and sex. And I find that a lot of females are going to move through the world, female sociopaths, female... They're going to move through the world differently than men because we are built differently. We have a different set of skills.

Right. Two There's a couple of best things I want to talk about because I don't want to take up too much.

No, I'm loving this conversation. This could go on forever. This could go on forever.

One is I want you to talk a little about cognitive behavioral therapy because that's what works for you. And that's very interesting because it's very similar to 12-step stuff to me.

Cognitive behavioral, I always understood right from wrong. I just don't always have that emotional connection to it. So when you're missing that emotional connection, again, you have to make decisions based on external philosophies. For the longest time, acting out was rewarding for me in that it neutralized this pressure that I was experiencing. Could I act out now? Yeah. And I remember somebody asking me, What keeps you from kicking the dog? I just remember being like, I don't want to kick a dog. It's not like I need these invisible forces keeping me from injuring animals. But even if I did want to kick the dog, there's no more reward. For me, being able to live in society, being able to have these conversations, that's the reward. I understand that if I engage in in negative coping mechanisms, destructive coping mechanisms, I'm not going to get anything out of it. It's very selfish. It's very objective. But who cares? There's this understanding that, well, if we don't want to do good, if it doesn't come from your heart, then it doesn't count. I'm here to tell you that's insane.

Right. Yes. It's gotten dark here where I am in Greece, and It's like that...

What is that? It's one of my favorite songs. I can't read my notes. Not Dark Yet by Bob Dylan.

That's a great song. I know you love music. Oh, this is perfect. You led me right there. I wanted to ask you, do you think actors are sociopaths?

Actors? Yeah.

Because you have this line in the book which was very harsh, and I don't think I agree with it. But you say something about artists. Once they become artists, they stop evolving as human beings.

Oh, no. Yes, I remember. I was talking to someone about... It was less artist, it was more Fame. It was specifically related to Fame.

I can relate to both. I'll say I'm really interested in this topic because there is something about artists. Well, first of all, you take actors. Actors create masks. They mimic behavior. They plunder their world, the world, to try to come up with facsimiles that are dramatically palatable to an audience. How is that different from a sociopath?

Yeah, I would say that behaviorally, it's quite similar, but the difference is the motivation. An actor is doing that, why? For validation. They want the fame, they want the attention, they want to be liked, they want that constant- Or they want to escape themselves. Or that. Whereas the sociopath masks out of necessity. And listen, it's always tricky to generalize. Of course. Certainly, there is a current of manipulation. There is a current of masking. There is a current of deceit that runs through actors whose job is to impersonate others for a living. I think that there's something alluring about that when you become an actor. At first, it's like, Oh, this is fun. And then it's like, Oh, wait, no, this is actually really fun. I have all these tools, and I can do all these different things, and it's all an illusion.

Well, what I've said before on this podcast is I came from a very heady intellectual upbringing, and it was through acting that I learned how to access my emotions. And it reminds me a little bit of your journey as well, where you're trying to access something in yourself myself that was muted. In myself, it was not the lingua franca in my family. You weren't validated for being emotional. You were validated for being smart and intellectual. So I had to then go back and learn myself. We list a lot of shitty reasons why somebody becomes an actor, but there are also self-teaching and artistic reasons to become an actor.

Oh, 100%. And I hear that when When you're saying that it sounds like in order for you to learn emotions, it was probably easier for you to pretend to be someone else because you, David, can stand off to the side, whereas...

Well, it was like you. It was like you. It was the tricky thing of like, They don't know that I really have this inside me. I'm putting it through this character named whatever. But shit, I could do these things. Yeah. Can you spot the sociopath? Could we play that game with you?

Yeah. I want to be transparent in saying that it's not easy. You can't really spot the sociopath. It's tricky, but yeah, we can play that game. I don't know how effective.

You're walking down the street and you run into somebody and you have a little conversation with them, do you go, Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, or do you need more than that?

No, you need more than that.

It's Donald Trump.

It's tricky because- How many people have asked you that? Everyone. I don't have the answer that- I do.

Yes, he is. I'm giving you the answer right now.

No, I don't have the answer that everybody wants. You don't? No, because to me, when I look at someone like him, it's grandiosity, fragility, and the need for admiration.

Why are we holding back?

Why am I holding Why are we saying he's not? Because I don't think he's sociopathic, and that's the thing. It's like everyone wants that diagnosis for him, and I don't believe that to be the case. It doesn't match.

Inability to learn from mistakes.

Yes, but what you have to understand is that narcissism and sociopathy have a tremendous amount of overlapping traits.

I don't think narcissism is really a diagnosis, though.

It is. Narcissistic personality disorder is not only a diagnosis, but it's empirically recognized. Listen, sociopaths, they struggle with the ability to connect to other people. So they're going to fake it when they need to get something. Sometimes it's nefarious, most of the time it's benign, but ultimately it's a means to an end. Sociopaths take the path of least resistance. Other people's opinions don't matter to them. They don't need the validation. If a appeasing you helps them reach their goal, they're going to do it. If not appeasing you helps them reach their goal, they're going to do it. All they care about is the goal. To a narcissist, though, the goal is meaningless without the validation. They need that admiration. They need to believe that other people see them as a godly creature. It's all that matters. That's what I see, and that's not consistent with a sociopathic diagnosis.

Everything to me is a double-edged sword. Life is a double-edged sword. So Narcism and sociopaths, whatever we call these disorders or these whatever you want to call them, there's good and bad to what those things are. They give power as well as taking it away. They give beauty as well as being the ugliest things we can think of. I believe you can't be an artist without being somewhat narcissistic. Oh, no, no. You have to believe. You have to believe that you have something the world needs to come out of your mouth or out of your paint brush or out of your typewriter or whatever.

I agree, but I do believe that there is a difference between narcissism and what is described as malignant narcissism. When someone's talking about malignant narcissism, they're speaking to the personality type. The narcissistic ego defense has gotten so out of control that there is no coming back. But just narcissism, once you tip into that malignant area, that's when it is believed that it is not treatable in much the same way that psychopathy is not believed to be treatable.

So we'll see it as... You're saying at some point we'll start to see it seen as a spectrum disorder as well.

I really believe, especially when you're talking about something that is born out of necessity, as is with narcissism. Again, this need for grandiosity, this need for admiration, it comes from a place of pain. It comes from a place of deep inferiority, like primal life or death inferiority. So if If we can dismantle that coping mechanism, if we can redirect it before it gets to the point where you can't scale that wall, I think that in that case, treatment is possible, self-awareness is possible. But again, we got to get to this stuff early. We have to identify this stuff early, and you're not going to do that so long as everybody's just being tossed into the garbage bin of narcissism, sociopathy, psychopathy.

Of course. Well, I think I would like to end here because it's dark in Greece, and we ended with Narcissus. We ended back with the myths. I thank you for entering into that conversation. And like I said, I really enjoyed reading the book. Thank you. Thank you for your honesty.

I thank you for having me. Honestly, this was truly... It was such a fun and smart conversation.

I don't believe anything you're saying. That's okay. Because I know it's just charm. It's just charm. You're trying to get at my people, please. No, I'll tell you what. You're trying to manipulate my narcissism. I know what you're doing.

Here's why that's not true, because if I didn't mean what I was saying now, I wouldn't have stayed on the call. I enjoyed this, which is the only reason that I wanted to keep talking. Otherwise, I would have made an excuse and bailed.

When I finished my conversation with Patrick, I felt myself going back to that discussion we had about the failure she felt when her child was born, and she didn't feel that overwhelming maternal love come out of her the way she realized she had been expecting it. I thought back to my own mom, not because my mother was a sociopath, but just because there was a time when I was in first or second grade, when I was hyperactive or acting out or whatever, and they sent me to the psychiatrist. I didn't know they were watching me play. They were just watching to see what kid I was, I guess. My mom, bless her, she ended up telling them, Just because you can't handle them doesn't mean there's anything wrong with him. That just fills me with love for my mother and respect for her as a parent. That's the parent that I Patrick can be, that fierce, protective, draw the line in the sand mother. That's the love that she can give. I'm sure with other kinds of love as well, but that's what I'm thinking about after the conversation. There's more fail better with Lemonada Premium.

Subscribers get exclusive access bonus content. Subscribe now on Apple Podcasts. Fail Better is a production of Lemonada Media in coordination with King Baby. It is produced by Keegan Zema, Aria Bracci, and Donny Matias. Our engineer is Brian Castillo. Our SVP of Weekly is Steve Nelson. Our VP of new content is Rachel Neil. Special thanks to Carl Ackerman, Tom Krupinski, and Kate D. Lewis. The show is executive-produced by Stephanie Wittles Wax, Jessica Cordova-Kramer, and me, David Ducovny. The music is also by me and my band, the lovely Colin Lee, Pat McCusker, Mitch Stuart, Davis Rowan, and Sebastian Modack. Special thanks to Brad Davidson. You can find us online at Lemonada Media, and you can find me at David Ducouveny. Follow failbetter wherever you get your podcast or listen ad-free on Amazon Music with your prime membership.