Here with Reaction, Harris Poll Chair, Mark Penn, the host of Tommy Lahren, is fearless. There's no such thing as a fearful Tommy Lahren, anyway. On Outkick, Tommy Lahren. Tommy, let's get your take. It's a long list of people now. It's James Carville. I won't speak for Mark Penn. I'll let him speak for himself. But it's Van Jones. It's David Axelrod. It's Maureen Dowd. Nate Silver now joining the chorus. You have been saying, do you still believe 40 days out, you think they're going to replace Biden?

I absolutely believe they're going to replace Biden. I believe it's going to happen either at the convention or shortly thereafter. I think the Democrats are far too strategic and they're far too used to winning, and they enjoy winning far too much to take a risk with Joe Biden. I know they took a risk in 2020, but when we look back at the debates in 2020 and we look at when he was newly elected, he was in far better shape then than he now, and he was slipping then. I don't think they can possibly take that risk. I do believe they're going to swap him out. I also think that when it comes to this first debate, we need to actually raise our expectations of Joe because us counting it as a win if he's able to sit upright and complete a sentence is giving him far too much credit because then he'll claim a victory just like he did after the State of the Union because he was able to get through it in one piece. We have to raise our expectations of Biden, and we also have to put the onus on the Democrat agenda and not just not the messenger, but the actual message.

Because if and when they do swap out Biden, we have to be ready on the Republican side, and we cannot be caught flat-footed if they bring Gavin Newsom in, and he's a shiny new toy. We can't let that happen. The strategy of the Democrats is unmatched. Never forget that. I don't think it'll be Gavin.

I think it would more likely be Whitmer if they have the ability to bypass Vice President Harris. Mark, can anybody really conclude anything else that smart Democrats like yourself, you really don't want Biden, do Well, I think I'll defer that one per se.

But look, I didn't think he was going to run. He decided to run. You know what? He swept the Democratic primaries. These are his the elegits. It's his convention. The idea that he's not going to be the nominee, I think, is a fantasy. I think the party is around him. I don't know why James said what he said. It's not really particularly useful at this point. The only thing I'll say is this debate in June before the convention is a little risky.

You know why he said it?

What's the point of saying that now?

It's obvious this guy is a mumbling, bumbling, stumbling, fumbling. He could barely string sentences together. However, I do take Tommy's admonition really seriously. I think we'll see the return of Jacked Up Joe. Whatever Joe drank, ate, took before or the State of the Union. Maybe it was just Red Bull and caffeine pills. I don't know. Whatever it was, that was not the normal Joe. We never saw it before, and we haven't seen it since. But we will see it for the debate. Now, there are some even saying, Mark, that Donald Trump might be wise to just pass on the first debate, wait till he's nominated, then debate him. What would you say to that?

I'd say he accepted it. He accepted it in the lion's den. If I were Donald Trump, I would have done some better negotiating here. But I don't think he can back out now without really looking cowardly. I think Biden has said he's going to meet the challenge. I think it's a big test whether he Whether you think he's jacked up or not, if he can get through that debate, he'll lift his campaign. If he can't, I suspect that it might actually be in some jeopardy.

Joe might have done Donald Trump a favor, and I say this affectionately, Tommy, by insisting that when it's not his turn to speak, that they mute his microphone because I think that was a mistake in the first debate in 2020. Your reaction?

Well, I would hope a lot of things for that first debate. Obviously, it's stacked against Donald Trump, and we know that. But I think Donald Trump has an incredible opportunity in this first debate to act more presidential than he's ever acted in his entire life, push everything on Joe and Joe's failing agenda and his failed policies, which is the Democrat failed policies and agenda. If If Donald Trump just sits back and he lets Joe talk himself into a corner, then Donald Trump will win that first debate. He just has to restrain himself, which I believe he can do, pull it in, act as presidential and dignified as possible, and he will win against Joe Biden in his failed policies. He simply can't stand on those, and quite frankly, he can't stand at all.

All right, let me ask you this. If, in fact, Joe, for whatever reason Mark Penn went out, Tommy is convinced it would be Gavin Newsom. I I don't think it would be Gavin. That's just my guess. I have no inside knowledge, except that he told me over and over and over and over again when I interviewed him, and in the debate with Governor DeSantis, that he wouldn't do it. Okay, so I Who do you think the most likely person, if it's not Vice President Harris, would be Governor Whitmer. That's my take. People have floated the name of Michelle Obama. I don't think she's up to the job myself. Who would be the most likely Democrat? Who Who would you pick if you had to choose somebody?

Well, again, you have to go through the history here. These delegates were nominated for this ticket. Harris, I think, would be the likely nominee if for some reason, any reason, Joe Biden had to remove himself. You could bet on that as almost a certainty.

You think it would be Kamala Harris?

Yes, absolutely.

All right. Well, bet the game's on. I don't know what you guys want to bet, but feel free off air. Thank you both. Hey, Sean Hannity here. Hey, click here to subscribe to Fox News' YouTube page and catch our hottest interviews and most compelling analysis You will not get it anywhere else.