Hello, everybody, and welcome back to the Garabaldi Red podcast, a Nottingham Forest podcast. I'm Max Sate, your host. And as Forest, unluckily, exit the Carribell Cup on penalties to Newcastle. We discuss the performance, the positives to take because there was plenty of them. And as deadline day looms tomorrow, the latest transfers surrounding the city ground. Delighted to welcome, first of all, to the podcast, former Forest Defender, Michael Then Mance, good to see you. Thanks for your time. How are you? How you've been keeping?

Yeah, well, good. Thank you for having me on, man. Appreciate it.

Good stuff. And you were at Burton recently, Michael. You recently retired. But what was that like? Because you had quite a few injuries towards the end of your career. Do you miss playing?

I do. It's tough. I've done my knee, my meniscus flapped off the bone, and I had an operation for that. And coming back from that, it just It wasn't the same. I had literally no power in my knee, in my leg to jump or to sprint. I lost so many yards of pace. And to obviously chase after these young boys and not be able to get there is demotivating. And it was time, really, to be honest.

Yeah. No, I can imagine. Also joining us is someone that hasn't played for Forest, but he talks about Forest enough on the podcast. It is Mark Turner. Mark, good to have you with us again, mate. You okay?

Yeah. Good to see you, Max. Good to see you, Michael. Well, I'm actually sat here sympathizing with Michael because I spend all my time chasing around after young guys as well, Michael, trying to keep up with Max Hayes. So we have that in common.

How do you?

Right. Let's get on with today. And Mark, we'll actually start with you. And just your thoughts, really, on the game last night. I mean, Forest played well. There were some standout performances, which we'll get on to. I think there was five, six débutants as well. Just what was your general assessment assessment on the game, Mark, to start off with?

Yeah, general assessment on the game was very pleasantly surprised. I mean, we knew there were going to be wholesale changes for the cut. I don't know if we expected 10 changes, but given that these players won't have ever played together as a team, I think they gelled pretty quickly. I mean, obviously, the first 18, 19 seconds were a bit of a disaster. But after that, I think the team settled down nicely, started to connect really well. I actually thought there were some standout performances as well. I think there are definitely two or three players who have given Nuno something to think about for the next league game. So yeah, by and large, despite the ultimate outcome, I was pretty happy with Forest tonight.

I agree. I thought it was going to get a bit messy after those first 19 seconds. I thought this could be a bit of a horror score, but Forest did well and held out well and then moved in the right direction from there. And I thought we were really unlucky. We'll get onto the penalty is in a minute. Michael, in terms of because I know you didn't catch much of the game last night, you caught the first half. I mean, Forrest played Zack Abbott, a youngster. He made his debut in central defense. It must be quite difficult to come in against a Premier League opposition like that in Newcastle. But I guess that's what the Cup can give a manager a chance to give players a debut. Almost the Cup is utilized for that these days in football.

Yeah, definitely. So I think a lot of managers do tend to use it as a chance to give young players experience playing first-team football against tough opponents and testing themselves, being able to test themselves. But they wouldn't be getting the opportunity if they weren't good enough in the first place. So the manager obviously believes in the player to be able to know that he can go in and put in a good performance and be solid and do well, which is a massive positive for young players as well, because to get that experience of playing against top teams, you're not going to get that playing at youth level. Don't get me wrong. You do get some really good youth teams and stuff like that, but playing men's football is totally different.

Yeah, And I mean, when you played in the Carabal Cup as well, Michael, because it was probably called the League Cup. I don't know. It's changed its name so many times, hasn't it? I know. Yeah. But when you played in the Cup, I mean, under managers, what would often be the message if, let's say that, particularly when you were at Forest, probably the Carabal Cup wasn't the aim, promotion was the aim during the Championship days. So what's the message like from a manager going into a Cup game?

You still want to go in and do well. You want to go in a Cup run. So don't get me wrong, it's never to go in to just to play the game. If you lose, you lose. And if you win, you win. It's not like that. You want to win every game that you play. And The message is normally to obviously go and win and let's go on a cup run. That is normally the message.

Yeah. Mark, in terms of that first off performance yesterday, I thought Jota Silva played Excellent first off until he got his goal, obviously, in the second, which was deserved. But there was some real standout players for Forest. And despite that not being the strongest team, really wasn't even near the strongest team Forest. There was positives to take from that because Newcastle fielded a really strong team. You could tell that they were on a serious run in this competition.

As I said earlier, there were some great standout performances. As Michael was talking, I always feel bad for the young players or the clearly fringe players when you go out of the cup early doors, as we did last night. I always feel like those players feel that more because those are their opportunities to get to game minutes, right? And to put themselves in the spotlight for the manager and give him something to think about. So players like, looking at our starting lineup here, Miguel, you mentioned Abbott previously, Amouw Bamadele as well. Great players, but very much on the fringes of things as far as lead competition is concerned. Those are the players I really feel for. I'll be interested to get Michael's take. Actually, no, Michael was pretty much always a starter, so he probably can't even speak to that dynamic, but maybe- I can.

I can. I was young once as well.

Well, maybe teammates. I mean, do you feel like when you get back into the dressing room afterwards, you've got players like in the case of last night, Callum Hudson-Doy and Anderson and whatnot who are going to be like, oh, wow, that sucks. But lead match to look forward to. And then you've got the other half of the dressing room going, oh, man, there goes my chance to get extra minutes and show the manager what I can do.

I definitely think it is a factor, but not in terms of that the older players or the more senior players are not bothered, it's just that games come so thick and fast that you can't dwell on a loss. You need to think, all right, well, what's our next game now? We need to go into that. We need to win that next game. So obviously, yeah, the younger boys will probably be a bit more bummed out because they probably know that they're not going to be playing in that next game. And that was an opportunity for them to obviously go into another game and play another game in front of a massive crowd, in front of the fans and stuff. So, yeah, I don't think that they're... Yeah, not that they're not bothered, but they are bothered. But, yeah, there's too many games to worry about the last game. You got to move on to the next one.

Yeah, it's fair enough. And then, Max, to your question, there were three players that really stood out to me last night. I thought they were good performances all over the field, but I was particularly impressed with... You mentioned Jota. I thought Mareira as well was fantastic. Man of the match for me, though, was Moreno. I love watching him. I would absolutely love to see him in and about the first team for the next league match. So yeah, really surprising and I think really encouraging as well when you look at the depth of our squad. I don't think many of us as fans had much of a sense of, okay, are these players really improving us or are these players for a season from now or a couple of seasons from now? And they never I feel like it'll inevitably going to be shipped off to Olympiakos at some point during this season, maybe never to return. But based on what we saw last night, very encouraging.

Yeah, it did crack me up. Actually, I saw a comment on social media, Mark, that said, Jota Silva looks like a player that really doesn't want to spend six months in Greece at Olympiakos.. He was fighting for his place, and boy did he. It was a great goal. Yeah, it was a great goal. Let's touch on Moreno, actually, Mark, and just get your thoughts on how he played last night. Not only do I think his hair is absolutely brilliant and how he keeps that in place, but also his pace and just his technical ability, I just thought he brought to the game. And again, he slotted in to the side instantly. You didn't ever think he looked at a place. And that's a real positive for Forest. Do you think he could start against Wolves on Saturday?

I think he's capable of doing that. I don't know if he will, but then, no surprise just in the last match by bringing Anderson into the starting lineup. And also I thought Anderson was great last night as well. He looked really comfortable and confident on the ball. I wonder if part of that is a product to play against his old team, if he was playing with a bit more swagger, I'm going to show you. Don't forget about what I did at Newcastle. But no, I think Moreno absolutely could slot into the team immediately. Whether he will, I'm not sure. But I suspect there's still going to be some movement in the transfer market before the door, the window. I'm not sure what to refer to as, until it closes on Friday. And so don't be surprised if some of these players that showed up and showed off last night don't feature more prominently in the lead campaign moving forward because their opportunity might present itself if there is still some movement to be had in that transfer market.

Yeah, we shall see. You mentioned transfer market there, Mark. And Michael, Forest have been busy this summer. It's been a good off the pitch recruitment, people would argue. What have you made to Forest, really, off the pitch in terms of the transfers they've brought in? Because Elliot Anderson, as Mark mentions there, there's Jotta Silver, obviously, Raymond Sosa, who started. It seems that the recruitment has been working in the right direction, really.

Yeah, definitely. They've had their season in the Prem last season. It was tough for them. But with the recruitment that they've got in place and with the people that they're bringing in, they're only strengthening the squad. Like I said, I saw the first half of last night and the players that were playing looked comfortable. They looked good. Everyone technically was very, very good. So I think it's going to be a positive season for Forest this season.

Yeah. And what do you think the almost realistic aim is? Because the Premier League is such a tough league and it's Forest's third season in it. And many people would just say, 'survival again'. What do you think is almost a realistic aim for Forest this season, Michael?

I think, of course, you want to survive in the Prem, but I think you got to get that out of your head because I think mid-table is what they should be trying to aim for because the Prem is tough. It's tough. You can see there's not one bad team in the premiership. So every game is going to be a tough game. But I think, realistically, with the squad that they've got, they should be aiming for mid-table and then just carry on trying to build every season on getting better and finishing higher.

Yeah. Mark, let's go back a little bit to the game. And we've got to touch on him more because he obviously did score the goal that took it to penalties. Jota Silva, I I just thought he was everything you want from a player that's making their debut, right? Energetic, hungry. And I don't know about you, but I'd be tempted to start him on Saturday.

Yeah, I would, too. I thought it was interesting. I was I'm going to see if either Alanga or Callum Hudson-Adoy would come off the bench, and if either made an appearance, who Nuno would lean towards, because I thought it might give us some clues as to who he might Look, to bench in order to accommodate Jota. I think that his performance was so good. His performance was so good. I think Nuna must have been considering that, considering this next match. You're right, Max. He looked like a player out there with something to prove. He's a flair player, but still we saw high levels of that. You know what? It reminded me of a little bit. Obviously, he's a different type of player, but a little bit of Morgan Gibbs-White. Morgan Gibbs-White gets put in this category of flair player. But if you watch what he contributes to Forrest in any given game, he's box to box, he's up and down, he's getting tackles in. He's being more than a 10. And I thought we saw that from Jota last night as well. Yes, he did everything that his role, his position on the field would require him, and he scored a worldy, but he was really putting in a shift as well and giving Nuno, again, I keep saying this, but something to think about.

Max, before you transition off, I got to ask Michael here because to have a professional defender, defensive midfielder on the pod. It's a rare occurrence. Usually, it's just you and I talking about our successes in Six Aside. So I'm going to ask Michael, 19 seconds into the game, and Forest concede. You've been a central defender. You play pretty much anywhere across the back. You play defensive midfielder as well. So you're used to the opening whistle going in and then getting ready and making sure nothing stupid happens early doors. What was your What's your take on that first 19 seconds? I mean, have you been in those situations with something crazy like that? It's happened early on. So what's your take on how it went down? Why did that happen? And then what's the mindset if that does happen? Because you're already basically starting a goal down and you're giving yourself a mountain to climb.

Yeah, I've been in that situation many times. Oh, sorry.

No, I have.

It's tough because when you can see so early, you feel like your game plan has not gone out the window, but then you just need to get everyone focused and concentrated as quickly as possible, because after conceding a goal, teams tend to lose concentration, so you could go on and concede another one after a short while. So no, it's a tough spot to be in. You just got to stick to your game plan. Maybe, I don't know, sometimes in And a lot of teams that I played in, if we were to ever concede, we just tightened everything up. Everyone got back into their positions, tightened everything up. If we had to go long for five minutes just to get back into the game and then obviously slow the game down, get your passes on the ball, you have to sometimes do it. It's happened. And I've been on the opposite end when we scored early doors. And then, I don't know, it's a tough one mentally because in your mind, your game plan is we're going into this game, we're staying solid, and then 19 seconds in, you can see the goal. So, yeah, it is a bit of a crushing blow.

But, yeah, like I said, you've got to get focused up real quick and just in your mind, just tell yourself it's still nil-nil and then push on from there and hopefully try and get a goal back as early as possible.

Yeah. And I was just about to say, actually, that I thought Forest dealt with that goal brilliantly. And I just thought it showed that that back four did really well, almost to recover from that because obviously it must be tough mentally to deal with that quite early on. And funny enough, Mark, just as we're recording the podcast, Morgan gives white, it's been caught up to the England squad. It's just literally just been announced now. So just seeing it on my phone. So he's the first Boris player to get an England call up since Stuart Piers in 1997, and he'll be an England squad if Lee Corsley, who's the interim manager, wants him, England squad, to face the Republic of Ireland and Finland. So big news coming out of Forest. So It's awesome.

It's funny, actually. I was watching an interview with Lee Corsley yesterday, and they were showing back... What do you call it, Max? B-roll? What do you call it?

B-roll, B-roll. All right.

Playing in the background, and it was from when they won the It was the World Cup, right?

Yeah.

Okay. And the segment they took, it was him and Morgan Gibbs-White having a little bit of banter and laughing and joking as they went to go get the trophy. And all of a sudden, the snaps just started firing. I'm like, I wonder I wonder if that relationship will pay off. I wonder if we're going to see Eunji Durban in the England team anytime here soon. So that is fantastic news. Congratulations. And well deserved. Very well deserved.

Definitely. Michael, what do you make of Morgan as a player from when you've seen him? Because He gets a lot of praise, of course, from Forest fans, but he just controls the midfield so well. And Forest fans almost feel like he's one of our own because he just loves the club and you can really tell he wants play for Forest.

I think Mark hit the nail on the head, really, by how he described him. I think, yeah, he gives everything that he needs to give in his job, in his role, but he works so hard. He is box to box. Very comfortable on the ball and a great passer of the ball as well. So I think he's great. I think he's definitely been one of Forest's best players.

Yeah, for sure. Right. Let's look at maybe some other a few negatives potentially from last night. I don't want to dwell on the game too much, but more talk about players and the future of those players. Got to mention, Taewo Ohane, of course, missing that penalty last night over the bar and just the confidence for him being quite low at the moment. Mark, before I come to you, Michael, I just wonder from a player's point of view what it's like, not just missing a penalty, but before this, Tywo has had injuries. He's not featured much. He struggled. He's had some family issues off the pitch as well. Even though you are a professional, those things surely just must affect you going in to play football.

Yes, they do. Yeah, things off the pitch do affect you. But sometimes, I find with a lot of players that I've played with as well and myself, that playing football is almost like your remedy for all that stuff and your medicine, because you don't think about anything but what your job is on the pitch that night, and then you deal with whatever's going on in your life after your game. For me personally, it can affect you on the pitch, don't get me wrong. But I always feel like football always helped me if I was going through something to not think about that thing that's going on in my life. So, yeah, it's a tough one. It depends on, I don't know, how strong he is mentally and how he deals with things.

And Mark, I suppose if you just want to come in there and talk about Tywo. And just it's disappointing to see because when you look back to, especially when Taewo first signed and then even last season before he got injured, there was just those glimpses of just how he was worth that price tag that Forrest paid for him. And he was the quickest player in the Bundesliga when he won that stat. And he just had that almost... Because he does bring that sense of it's quite difficult to play against Taewo for other players and for him to get in those positions. And he scored so many goals for Forest. It's just disappointed to see the way it's turning out with him at the minute.

Yeah, it really is. I mean, you cited all of the things that could be impacting him. Michael's perspective is really interesting there. And again, I've only played a semi-Pro level, so I don't have the experience Michael does in any way, shape or form. But I would concur with him. When I've been in situations like that, the football has been the relief. It's been taking out that situation and just let you focus on this thing you love and just be wholly in it. But everyone's It's different. I think as fans, that's something we have a tendency to forget. This isn't a game of FIFA. These are real human beings we're talking about here. And everybody sees the world a little differently. Everyone has a different mentality, different value system, different. Some folks are very emotional, others much less so. We don't know what Thierry was going through or dealing with physically and mentally. But to your point, Max, it is sad, really sad to see this fall from grace. He was one of my favorite players these last couple of years because he was just the definition of chaos. I'm quite sure what you're going to get from him.

He's big, he's strong. He clearly troubled defenders. We saw what he did to Saliva last season. He was arguably the best central defender in the Premier League right now. So it is sad. So I'd love to see him get back to his chaotic best. Whether it's going to happen, I don't know. But this is a player that Chelsea was sniffing around last season. That being said, Chelsea.

Who do you want to be sniffing around?

Yeah, I think Chelsea are on the phone for Michael again. I think they're trying to bring him home.

It's never too late, Michael. It's never too late.

I will say, though, Max, and you and I were sending each other messages last night during the game. The minute I saw him walking up to the spot for that fifth kick, I'm like, No. Why? You shouldn't be thinking that about a number nine. You should be like, Where is he? We want him to take the definitive kick. And as I saw him walk up, I was just, Oh, no, man, this is not good. ' So it didn't surprise me in one bit when he blasted it over the bar, as sad as I was to see it. So hopefully he bounces back.

Yeah. And Michael, I suppose when you've watched Forest as well, Tywo was the number one striker, but then particularly last season when he obviously spent a long time on the sidelines, it became Chris Wood as the number one. And he scored Was it 10 goals now for Forest last season, and he'll no doubt probably score a similar amount again. But I just wonder from your point of view, whether you think relying on Chris Wood, relying on one striker, is good enough for Forest this season if they really want to push on? Deadline day, obviously, is tomorrow. So from your perspective, do you think Forest needs to go out there and get another striker?

Probably, yeah. Obviously, if you want to If you want to do well, you need backups, but you need, like Mark was saying as well, you need people to be confident as well. So if you do have another... What if Wood gets injured and Taewo is injured as well? So do you know what I mean? So you do need backups, but then you do... It's hard for a manager because how do you keep everyone happy? How do you keep everyone confident? You do have to, I don't know, split the game time a little bit, especially for strikers. Strikers are different. They all want to play, they all want to score goals. That's where that's their bread and butter. That's where they get their confidence from. So no, it's tough, but yeah, they probably should get another striker.

Can I ask Michael very quickly? So, Michael, you've been in the game a long time. And so it just occurred to me that your career probably bridged that shift between how it used to be, which was you had to start at 11:00, and they pretty much rocked out every single game. The manager maybe made one or two changes. Generally, they were predicated on performances or maybe someone being injured. To move into this position now where it's recognized that this is a squad game, right? And people can get moved around and tactically, you can shift from match to match. And you can see three or four players being switched in and out. Obviously, in the case of Forest, for instance, you have players like Morgan, Gibbs, White, who are going to play pretty much every game, but everyone else is interchangeable. So has player mentality changed over that time? Do you think players are comfortable with being part of a squad now, or do you feel there are still players there who are starting 11 or nothing? I'm not happy if I'm not playing, end of?

It's hard question, to be honest. To be honest, I think everyone wants to play. No one wants to be sat on the bench. Don't get me wrong, when I was young and I was at Chelsea, I was a squad player. I was on the bench for the majority of the games, and I'd maybe come on here and there, might start a game or two. But I knew that was my role at the time because I was young, and I knew the players that were playing were unbelievable. Most of them were captains of their country. So I accepted my role. I knew what my role was. But yeah, If you're buying players that are playing regularly at the club that they're at and scoring goals and they're confident, and then they come to another club and then you're sat on the bench, you're going to be asking questions like, Why am I not playing? Every player wants to play every single game to be honest.

Yeah. I'm assuming you're asking those questions as well during contract negotiations, right? Because you're talking about length of contract and how much you're going to get paid and bonuses and all that lark. But surely you're also asking, what do you see my role here? Are you looking for a number one striker? Do you want me to come in and just bolster the options? I'm sure you're asking those questions, too, right? Which is so difficult because if the manager is saying, well, yeah, we just want you to come in to help out and give us an option. Yeah, that's not very attractive.

A manager is never going to say that. He's never going to say that. He's probably going to throw a fishing hook out there and say, yeah, you're my number one. You're definitely starting. Get you there, and then you're on the bench. That's probably how it happened.

But, yes.

Good insight.

It's not happening like that. I'll tell you that right now.

That's how Max got me on this podcast. Every episode, you'll be a regular. When I'm not here, you've got... Actually, you did let me take the mic when you were.

Yeah, true. Yeah. Right. Let's talk a little bit, Mance, just about your forest career. Because obviously, Stuart Piers brought you in. You went through quite a bit of turbulent times. A few managers, I think, if I'm right, your last manager was under Mark Warbotton for Forest before you left. And then obviously you were under Fawas a bit at times and all the ownership difficulties. I just wonder what your standout really memories from Forest were, Mants, because I think the fans are quick sometimes to forget that, yes, Forest didn't get promoted until a few years ago. But during those times when you were there at the club, they were some difficult moments for the players to go out and play on the pitch, given what was going on off the pitch in a way.

Yeah, definitely. I've always said that was the thing that was the toughest because there was no real stability at the club. And managers It was just literally, there was like a rolling door. There was a new manager coming in all the time. So I definitely felt like that had an effect on the players. It was definitely tough because you always having to reprove yourself to the new manager. And obviously, you should be proving yourself every single day. But then obviously someone else comes in with a different way of playing. And then you've got to change the whole way that your team's, I don't know, trained the whole preseason. If a manager gets sacked halfway During the season. It is tough. But no, I had some great memories at Forest, especially when Stuart Piers first brought me there and we got off to a flyer winning, I think, well, not losing our first nine games, winning the majority of them. But then injuries hit like some big players and it killed us a little bit. Not to say that the players that came in weren't good enough, but that's where Their depth in the squad is obviously very important.

If you lose a big player, like we lost Brett, Asombalonga, who got a lot of our goals, to not replace him with someone who could potentially fill that void is tough. But no, great memories. Beating Arsenal as well with Eric Lehigh scoring, running off like a madman was a good one as well.

Yeah, I can remember that when Eric Lehigh ended up having the dog, didn't he? And yeah, that was it. Well remembered. Gun of the dog. Right, just quickly before we go- You can't skip, mate.

Come on, seriously, you can't skip over. I got to watch this fella in the Garibaldi. I got to chip in. I got to chip in.

Okay, go on, Mark. Go on.

Don't embarrass me, mate. You were quality. You really were. I mean, not like some of those cloggers you're out there with, like Foxy and Hobbes. I mean, you were proper quality, seriously.

That was a bit hard, Mark.

Very cultured, very comfortable on the ball. Yeah, very comfortable on the ball. I mean, you were a pleasure to watch. You really were.

I appreciate that, Mark. Thank you, mate.

Absolutely. Now, when you were in the team, Joe Warrell was coming through the team around about that time, right? Wasn't he? Okay. So obviously, just to party Forest, I've got to ask you very quickly, what were your impressions of Joe as a young pro?

No, he was a great young pro, to be honest. He was a good lad as well. Obviously, as a young lad, you're not really very loud around, I don't know, like the first-team players, but no, he was always a good lad, and you could always see that he'd have the potential to go on and do well. So yeah, but nothing bad to say about him. Yeah, he was a great kid.

Yeah, good stuff.

And he's gone on to do really well.

Yeah, he has indeed.

Yes, that's cool. Right. I think that does us nicely because I know, Mance, thanks for taking the time out of your day. We appreciate it. No worries. And we'll hopefully get you on soon when Forest, I don't And Forest finishing the Champions League place is at the end of this season. Love it. And then Chelsea will be coming calling for you, Mance. I'm telling you now, it's going to happen. Good stuff. Mark, thank you as well. If you did enjoy this episode of Gareth Mordy-Read, give us a like, share and subscribe on YouTube. Follow us across Spotify and Apple podcasts from two great pros. And Mark, we'll see you next time. Bye-bye.