Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the Garibaldi Red podcast. Our final, I was about to say Friday brunch, but Thursday brunch, a day earlier, because why not? With Forest playing their final game of the season against Burnley on Sunday. Forest pretty much safe, although I don't want to say those words. I'm sure people will understand why. I just wanted to say as well before we started, thanks for all the It's a feedback recently on the podcast and the great comments towards the end of this season, which is mad and how quick this season has almost finished. And it just goes by quick when you talk about Forest most weeks. But we'll be here throughout the summer. We've got to talk about the last game of the season. Joining me, nice to see him back, glowing Dave Asprey. Dave, how are you, mate? How are you feeling? More of a sense of relief, probably, given that Forest will be playing Premier League football next season, hopefully given a no 30s.

The only thing I was... Yes, Max, I'm in good nick. I am relieved. I'm in a far better mental place than I was three weeks ago when I came in after the Everton game where I was sore of countenance and a right misery. I've probably annoyed all the viewers, so I'd like to apologize for my really gloomy outlook at the time. Now, yeah, I am relieved. The only thing I would say is there's two things I would say, Max, two little caveats to that sense of relief. One is that Nuno is treated Sunday as a big game and he wants to win it. He's taking nothing for granted at all. I love the fact after the game last week where Nuno was like... He was just putting a little bit of calm on things. And the other thing is, I still got it in my head from that night we played Stoke City in an empty stadium, lost 4-1, and Swansy She won at Reading and there was a big goal swing that night. But at the time, Max, that was seen as an extreme situation, that goal swing. And this one, a 12 goal swing, it's unlikely.

So yeah, a sense of relief. And just glad to have got to that point where we can not totally relax, but relax more than we might have imagined that we would do a few weeks ago. So yeah, it's been a It's been a really tough. It doesn't go down with any great... There's no glory attached to it. It's been a bit of a struggle. But here we are and we're just about safe. And that's a better place than where we might have been, mate.

Yes, definitely. What are you going to do on your Thursdays and your Fridays, Dave, and your Saturdays now? The season's over. There were no Friday brunch and then we had no forest.

We might have to go alive. I'll be in the gym, plenty. I'll be trying to sell Mom and Dad's house, which is an ongoing saga at the moment, seeing more of my family because sometimes they're like forest widows and gym widows, so I'm doing all this stuff. There are books to read. There are TV shows to be watching. The Responder is on at the moment. Good show. I'm watching lots of old Dr. Who's and things like that. I always find things to do, Max. I've got this, as you probably know, and as the viewers have seen in the past, I've got a really restless mind that goes... What are these people? I really struggled to sleep because I'm constantly thinking about the next thing. So I'll be fine. But obviously, looking forward to next season off the back of this one. And mate, I might be sticking my neck out, but I think we're going to do better next year. I've just got this feeling that we'll be a little bit... I think we'll be written off. I think when it comes to people making their predictions at the start of the season, we'll be in the relegation places as far as most are concerned.

But then, Wolverhampton Wonders with that team at the start of this season, and look what they've done. I just got a funny feeling that Forest are going to be much better next season. Hopefully, the football We'll do the talking next season. That's what I'd like from us. But I think there's the kernel of a good little side there. We've got some good lads in our squad, and I've been telling people this week, I think Forest will be all right next year. I I think Forest might surprise a few people next year. I don't think the expectation will be as great. I think we stayed up last year with a little bit more to spare than we have this year. And then people thought, Right, we're going to be kicking on. I think people might think it's a bit It's a bit tough for this time, but I'm quite positive about the future, mate, to be honest. I'll probably get clipped up like this time next year, mate. But no, there's lots to like about our squad. But at the same time, mate, I think there's lots of work that needs to be done. We need to set out set pieces, we need to chucking leads away and things like that.

There are lots of the floors in Forest on the field of It's not pretty blatant, I think, and it's up to Nuno or the club to address those. And that's what needs to be done, I think.

Yeah, the summer will be another busy one. I can't imagine it being Quite a quiet one. Borefool will go mad spending, they can't. They have to be very careful with PSR. They'll be a bit careful there. But I think there's got to be serious off the pitch stuff done at this summer, which Is expected in any football club to be fair. Let's look ahead to Burnley, Dave. You said Nuno treating it as a game that Forest wants to win, and it isn't over mathematically, mathematically yet. So it is a game that would be nice to finish on, of course, three points or at least a decent performance. Burnley already relegated, nothing to play for. Forest's obviously pretty much safe, but it's still got the feeling of a game where you think, Dave, that Forrest should be targeting on Saturday to win, given that the fans will be in a good mood. I imagine it'll be a party atmosphere. There's many fans that are going as fancy dress as referees.

Blind referees, I believe, Max.

Yeah.

I'm still- The old man gave the game away, mate. I thought it was hilarious, mate. Three blind refs instead of three blind mice.

For reference, my dad has bought us a fancy dress to go to Burnley on Sunday as referees, but blind refs. So, yeah, I'll decide whether I'm going to wear it on the day. That's all I'm going to say.

They're all going to be called Ashley Young, aren't they, mate?

So Dave, do you think this game is a game that Forest should be targeting to win, even though Burnley have nothing to play for. And it would just be nice to end the season on a high, surely.

Yeah, it would mate. I can't help thinking back to Crystal Palace at the end of last season, which was just the most unadulterated party there's ever been. It was like total relaxation. I mean, this is similar, but not quite, because there's still this prospect of some incredibly bizarre happening taking us down. But now I think it's difficult to know. From what I can get from Nuno said, Forrestal, we want to win this game. They're treating it not as a dead rubber. To all And for the purpose of purpose, it is a dead rubber, but Nuno is not seeing it like that. I actually think our lads, the last three weeks have played some really good football. Yeah, they've made mistakes. I thought they played really well against Manchester City, but just that extra quality the city had and which we've seen and which we're probably going to see for the next few years, took them through. Sheffield United away after a slow start. I thought second half was excellent. Did a cracking job there. And then I thought we played really well last week, and it was just so galling that switched off for those five minutes, which is one of the foibles of forests that needs addressing.

So I'd like to think that going into this game, Nuno will be saying to me, You lads have played really well these last three weeks. Let's finish with a win and leave a good taste, a nice aroma from the end of this season going into the next one. You know what I mean? So Nuno is not going to be treating it as a dead rubber at all. I think that's great. That's professional and that's integrity there for you. I think that's good. And I was glad to hear what he said after the game last week. Burnley, I don't know. I mean, Burnley might think, Well, let's just give it a whirl, last home game. They might chuck the shackles off and have a go at it, or they might do similar to Sheffield United, where Sheffield United flattered to deceive, did their usual of putting lots of effort in and then just tailing off and flagging after a while. I personally think it could be a high scoring draw. That's the way I'm looking at it, Max. But obviously, the ideal thing would be for our lads to win and to finish on 32 points.

Obviously, I keep thinking about the four-point deduction. If that had not gone off, then we'd have had no worries whatsoever. But hey, ho, that's happened. Can't do anything about it now. So, yeah, I think it would be I think it'd be a really open game. I think, I mean, Burnley, they've come up and tried to play expansive football. I think Vincent wanted to impress a style upon Burnley that then goes into the Premier League. Obviously, it's fallen short, they've gone down. I've always felt with Burnley that the intentions were incredibly honorable, but that they didn't wake up and smell the reality. We tried last year the way that we played in the Championship to try and translate it to the Premier League, and it clearly didn't work. I remember losing at Leicester 4-nil as a watershed, after which Steve Cooper decided, You know what? I want to play this open, expansive style, but it's leaving us too open. We have to do something that may be against our intention and against our nature. And Steve Cooper adjusted, and it was enough to keep us up. It was low block and all that. People were very happy with it, but it kept us up.

Now, I think Burnley, I almost think Vincent Company has refused to bend and he's going to cut his nose off despite his face. And there they are, they're relegated. And they have played some nice football. They've gone to places. I mean, winning at full-on was a really good win for them. They played really well at Manchester United. They've shown glimpses of what they're capable of, but they're relegated. So I think Vincent Company has to carry the can. But they might They'll think that they owe Turf more, at least a little bit of a consolation at the weekend by beating us. So I think both teams are going to go into it, not treating it as an exhibition and end of season game. I think they both want to, for their own personal reasons, we'll want to get the game on. So I think it'll be open. I think they'll both go for it. I really do, Max.

Yeah, I suppose it's been an interesting one with Burnley because Everybody tipped, particular the mainstream media, tipped Burnley to finish mid table, Vincent Company to push on him to get this city job in a few years.

And I think what's also interesting is that, let's Because the bottom three will most likely go down as it is.

They were the three that got promoted. And it will be interesting whether Luton and Burnley stick with Rob Edwards and Vincent Company rather than make a change. Obviously, Sheffield United have already made a change, Chris Wilder Whether they'll keep him. But it has been an interesting Premier League season. Lots of records broke, almost for the wrong reasons. And also, Dave, you look at the top of the table at the minute and it's going to go down pretty much to the final day. But Arsenal have been close to City for a change. It's been a bit of an odd season when you think about it. Two teams with point productions. That's probably never happened in Premier League history. It's just been a bit of a mental season, not just for Forest, but for other clubs, too.

To be honest, Max, I think we could almost say that at the end of every season. Over a seven, nine, 10 month period of life and time and what have you, odd things, bizarre things. We'll probably say to the end of next season when Forest are champions and Manchester City been relegated. You know what I mean? So it's football. Cluffy, the great one, always said, We always expect the unexpected in football. We seem to get it every day. Going back to The three having come up being the three to go down, I always felt Sheffield United were out of their depth. When you start before a season selling Sander Berger and Illiman and Jay, clearly, you're two best players. You're hamstringing yourself before you've even started. So they were on a slippery slope to start with. Burnley, I thought Burnley, based on their body of work in the Championship last year, where they came and strolled through it, really. They strolled through a division as tough as that. To their great credit, I actually thought that Burnley would stay up, but they haven't. I always thought Luton had the easiest job of any team in the league because nobody expected anything of him, no expectation.

Everybody thought that they would lose every single game. It made Rob Edwards' life easier because he just goes, Well, nobody thinks you win this game. They were expected to do anything. They were completely written off because they're Luton town and it's just regarded as a small club. But I always thought that That would give them a help. I do think had Luton stayed up, then Luton would find it incredibly difficult next year. It would be that fairy tale element that they've had this year, and if you like, which we have last I think we utilize quite well, and Luton have tried to utilize it. That second season syndrome would have killed Luton completely. I would have had Luton bottom of the table next year had they stayed up at the end of this year. It looks like they're not going to. But I do think Bernie will stick with Vincent Company. It seems that their American owners have got this long term plan in place. If I was a Luton town fan, and I know some really lovely Luton town fans, I'm privileged to meet some good Luton town fans and actually enjoy going to the It's a proper little English football ground.

No way are they getting rid of Rob Edwards. I actually think that Rob Edwards is in such a credit to the game, a credit to Luton town, credit to football. The way he's dealt with Tom Lockier collapsing at Wembley after the play-off, Tom collapsing again at Bournemouth, the way he's kept his team going, what he's done to help Ross Barkley come back to being the player we always hoped he would be. Rob Edwards, to me, he's like the Steve Cooper of Lutent, if you like. So Rob will be staying. Whether the three of them that have gone down come back, I don't know because I think that league is going to be bonkers next year because Pompey have come up there, a big club. That lot down the road have come up as well. They're going to be They wanted to make their mark on it. So it's going to be difficult. It's going to be difficult.

It's a hard league, a championship.

As we know, we went through it two years ago, didn't we? And it was a grind, but we got there in the end. And that's why I think it is a fantastic achievement to get out of that week because it's just so... It's a cliché, but it becomes a cliché because there's a grain of truth in it. It is relentless. It's basically Saturday, Tuesday, Saturday, Tuesday. And you have to You have to be fit, you have to be focused, and you have to not let it grind you down. So I don't see too many changes at Burnley Lou. And it's almost like they had it in the back of their minds. You know what I mean? But with With us, mate, I don't know. I'm resigned to the fact that we will lose somebody, maybe one of our bigger names in a signing to offset any PS So I think we want next season any more points deductions, mate. It is going to be very interesting. Like you say, Max, it's forest, so there's always going to be lots going on. It's a bit of a soap opera in I just wish it wasn't. I wish we'd have a nice, quiet summer, sign three or four strategic assets, and then get on with letting the football do the work next season, mate.

So, yeah, it's going to be very interesting, but it's football. We love it. I'm addicted to it.

Yeah. And I suppose, Dave, actually, you mentioned about Forest having to sell players there. You'd hope, wouldn't you, that the likes of... If only Forest could keep hold of Morgan Gibbs, White, Murillo. There might even be some interesting Callum Hudson, Adoy, given his recent performances and how young he is. You just hope that we keep hold of those two, three, and possibly just front four as well at times, because I just think with small adjustments next season, I genuinely think that Forest will be an okay Premier League side.

Yeah, mate, that's exactly my thinking. I don't think we need Overhaul. I think we need little tweaks here and there. I look at what I've seen recently, Matt Sels is a fine goalkeeper. I think he's been an excellent signing Matt's calm, authoritative. With Selsy, I was going with Celsea. I was going to go back to the thought that once Selsy came in, all those goalkeeping conversations that the forest community were having just stopped immediately. This guy has made incredible saves. He's got a bit about him. He's got an air of I think I'd hate to lose Morgan. I think Morgan has days where he tries too much and it doesn't come off, but he sees himself as having this important role, and he loves the responsibility. He's a great lad, Morgan. Not to lose Morgan. Morello, what a lad he is. I'm not being funny. The best pass any footballer in the Premier League has made this season was last Saturday tea time when he hit the ball wide out to Montiel, and he hardly looked. It's the best pass. You can have your De Bruyne's and your Foden's and your Odegard's and all these other people spraying passes around.

But that was the best ball anybody's played all season. In fact, the second best pass was the one he played to Morgan at Crystal Volley's when he hit however many yards for Morgan to try to just past the box. The kid's a fantastic footballer. He's got some rough edges that need knocking off. He's only 21, so sometimes his mind wanders a bit in defending, but he's a hell of a talent. He's a right, raw prospect. I absolutely adore. I think Ola Eina has been a fantastic signing. We talked about Murillo. Murillo has had his iconic moments, but so is Ola. I mean, to skin Kyle Walker, who's one of the best fullbacks of the world's seen for the last few years against Manchester City. And he costs nothing. And he can play right, he can play left. He's a fabulous asset, Ola Eina. He played in an NFCON final. And he's just tremendous. I think he's really, really good. Callum Hudson, I've got nothing but admiration for. I mean, he came as damaged goods, if you like. A guy who his career looked like he lost his way. I mean, a few years ago, I think buying Munich, we're offering 70 million to Chelsea for it.

This is unbelievable.

It is unbelievable. And then the context of that is we get him for three million. I remember seeing his first game for Forest, which was in the EFL trophy on a lovely Barmy Night in Harrogate, where the food in the ground was fantastic. I tell you, if you've never been to Harrogate town, get there. It's a cracking little place to watch football. I remember the bus pulled up outside Harrogate's Ground, which is hidden behind some trees. It's a lovely place to go, especially on a night. It wouldn't be so good in the middle of winter, but where we were, it was September or something. I remember all the Forest kids, most of the lot who just won the Nottinghamshire Senior Cup, fair play to them for that, got off the bus and you think, 'Oh, what's your senior players is it? ' Philippe got off and he had this glowing aura about him. I remember we just cut out the most beautiful human being I've ever seen. And then just after him, Callum got off the bus and there was a bunch of us hanging around him. I remember saying, Good to see you, Callum.

Enjoy your football, mate. We'll be right behind you. ' And he went, 'Oh, I'll do my best for you. ' And I just think he's been fantastic. He's for three million. If you think Ola Eina cost peanuts, if anything, and Callum cost, I think it was three million or whatever. We've had stick as a club for some of our transfer deans, and quite rightly, it's not always gone to plan. But in Ola Eina and Callum Hudson Adoy, we've picked up gems for bargain basement shopping that's been absolutely brilliant. And Callum Hudson Adoy has become just... He's undroppable at the moment, the way he plays. He's got a great attitude. I love him when he gets the ball and he faces his fullback and he wants to take it. Everybody in the world knows what he's going to do. Everybody in the world knows he's going to come in on his right foot, maybe beat one, and then he's going to look to bend it inside the wall.

Is Dave gone? What a time for the WiFi to disappear midway through his point. Hopefully, he comes back in a minute. I'm there, mate. You're there, mate. You've come back. Technical difficulty. You were just talking about Callumud's and the Doy cutting in on his right.

I'm loving Callumud's. I tell you what it is, there's a bus just pulled up outside, mate, and I think the vibrations have jiggered the Wi-Fi, mate. But no, Callumud's and Adoy, I think it's been absolutely wonderful. Anthony Lange, not to the same extent, but Anthony has done good things. Just needs to be a bit more consistent, a little bit more end product. Yatesy gives a lot every week. With Yatesy, the sound of the ball leaving his boot at Sheffield United to go in the back of their net, oh, mate, that boom. And the thing is with Yatesy, every time I go to a match, I'm thinking, What river am I going to get What's the nearest river to hear? So fabulous lad. Like I say, most of what we need is there. It just needs boosting a little bit. It just needs to coalesce a little bit. I'd love us to have time He won't fit for an entire season. That would be great. Him and Woody... Let's talk about Woody. This time last year, everybody thought Woody was a busted flush, myself included. We all thought that Chris had gone over the hill and he wasn't ever going to get back.

He scored a dozen goals. Yeah, he's missed a few these last few weeks, but he's still getting into the position. I'd rather him get in the position to the miss him than not be there at all. And I think Chris Wood has been fantastic. A leader, good human being. I think a guy in the squad that the lads look to. So there's lots to like about us. There's lots to be positive about the good guys. Nico Williams, another one who's had a really, really good season. It's weird that we're clearly the fourth worst team in the league. And let's be honest, we're a long way drift of the next team, which I think is Everton or whoever. We're 16. So there's a bit of a gap. And you could quite easily say, Forest have been lucky because he've been in a Premier League, which has had possibly three of the worst teams it's ever seen in there. So again, everything's qualified. But I think there's a lot to like about us. And I think there's a makings of something that's not going to tear the roof off, but it could be more fun to watch next season, just with a little bit of...

I think we need somebody in midfield who's going to pull all the strings. Ideally, somebody McGinn-esque to go down midfield would be really good, I think. And I think maybe another centre-half will do. You know what? Willy Bollie. I mean, if we could get Willy Bollie fit for the This is what we're doing for the whole season, Willy just exumes calm. He doesn't seem to worry about anything, Willy. I mean, his tackling is fantastic. Our tackling, I think our tackling has got better since he's come back in the side. So we keep our big Willy. I think We'll be all right. The next season, I had to get that one in, didn't I? Sorry. So again, Dominguez, I tell you what, we're talking about Woody, Max, right? And what Woody has done this season has been fantastic or better than we imagined it would be. I think next season, and again, so I'm saying that we're going to be far better as a team, and I think we'll improve next season. I'm not sure why. I don't know where the evidence is. It's just a gut feeling. I've also got a gut feeling that Ibrahim Sangari will become a key man for us next year.

He started with no expectation. Would he start with no expectation at the start of this season? Look what he's done. And I think a preseason Working through, getting more acclimatized with the country and with forest. And I think Ibra, I think Ibra will be really good next season. I'll probably die on that hill. But there you go, mate. Now, lots to be done. So lots to be done. Sort, set pieces out. Stop giving leads away. Don't be passive at times. Be more consistent in aggression towards the opposition. These are the things we need. But I think there's lots to think, Yeah, I'm looking forward to next season because you bet your bottom dollar, mate. When it comes to... We won't do it, but the cognizenti in the mainstream media will write us off. They'll probably look at the relegation battle next year. They'll have Ipswich, Leicester, Us, and whichever one of the four comes through the game tomorrow night and then the game at Wembley. They'll be the relegation favorites, I think. We'll be It will be the survivor this season that will get choked into all the relegation discussions next year. I think, like wolves were this year, everybody had wolves going down at the start of the season.

And wolves are like, okay, they're struggling a bit at the moment, but the job for wolves has been done for a while and Gary O'Neill has done great things. I just got a feeling that we'll be the Wolves of next season. I don't know why. Do you know what, Max? Talk about inconsistency. I was on here three weeks ago. It was a right misery, a right I've paid in the back. I'm on here this week and I'm really, really, really positive about Boris.

That's what football can do to you, mate. It's just mind maddening, you know what I mean? I wanted to touch on VAR quickly, and we're going to also touch on the city grand with all the news surrounding that off the pitch. Never a dull moment. But wanted to touch on VAR. No. Reported yesterday that the Premier League clubs will vote on whether they're going to scrap it. They need 14 out of 20. That's the motion to basically pass it. I looked at I think it was a joint article that was released, actually, I think it was joint from the Telegraph Sport yesterday, and that showed the teams that were worse off from VAR, and they basically calculated it on a points basis. Forest would have had four more points if it wasn't for VAR this season. They calculated that. But there is obviously instances where VARs favored Forest, not much, but it will have some weight. I can't think of one-off the top of my head.

No, it's a symmetry, isn't it, Mike? Four points off. Yeah, either way.

Would you keep VAR next season, David, you were a fan of it in general, and in terms of how Forest have been affected from poor refereeing decisions this season. If you were working at the football club, would you be looking at scrapping it simply and voting to go against it?

Yeah, get rid of it. It's caused more trouble than it's worth. If we get rid of it, there'll be trouble. It's such a difficult one, but the worst thing- Do you think it's Do you think it's more the people, Dave?

Do you think it's more the people in control of VAR? I often feel like VAR can be used well. It just needs to be improved and the people, the referees, simply using it need to be improved.

I think that's a really good point, Max, to be honest. I saw... I'm on a WhatsApp group with some lads from another podcast they're doing, lads from all the clubs around the country. And one guy said, Wouldn't it be better if we had ex-pros looking at the situation? I ex- players understanding the pace of a game and the immediacy of a tackle or a header or a penalty shout or whatever, somebody more attuned with the rhythms of football might help. But all I can think of when I think about VAR is thwarted celebrations. It's like you're going for it, you're celebrating. We've had it so many times at the city ground, and there's nothing worse. It's like you're left hanging I'm hanging by this. Is it going to be given? Is it going to be taken away? You cannot give full vent to your emotions, Max. And for supporters in football, emotion is a crucial aspect of the whole experience. We're having like games, like 30 minutes added on because of all this faffing with what these guys are looking at. I appreciate the need for correct decisions. I also think that there has to come a point in life where people have to realize that a good decision isn't necessarily one that goes their way.

Nobody's got a divine right to have every decision to go their way. So there has to be some balanced thinking about, You know what? Yeah, that was a penalty against us, or, you know what? Yeah, we didn't get that penalty, or whatever. I think there has to be some... I think the problem with football is everybody wants a decision to go their way all the time. But personally, I want the decision to be correct. But I think with VAR, it'd be interesting if they put the vote to the 20 fan bases instead of the 20 clubs, it'd be gone in a second. I can't think of anybody I've met either in a football ground or just in general life talking about football. I love VAR, it's great, isn't it? Nobody ever says that. And I think general feeling about it is it's a blight. I absolutely If you're right, it could be utilized far better. But at the moment, we haven't really progressed, Max. We brought in the technology, and before we had the technology, it was a perception. That is my subjective view of that decision. I think it's either a penalty or it's not, or that's a free kick or it's not, or that's a red code or it's not.

Actually, we're still in that place now, even though we've had the technology, because people are still looking at the thing and then making a human decision. We actually haven't progressed that far, I don't feel. But for supporters in Grounds, for people who want to... We need to stop cutting short this thing. It's a bit like if you're heading towards an epiphany or some amazing feeling, an idea, this is the best. And then, oh, hang on a minute. And that, oh, hang on a minute, we need to get out of football. I I've been in a tumultuous Trent End or looking at a tumultuous A block or tumultuous Bryant of standard or tumultuous Bridgeford End. People are celebrating like mad, and then it all stops. And for the players as well, these guys love scoring a goal. It's one of the great feelings of life. You're like, I don't know, you're like Callum, scoring at the Trent end. Callum is off wheeling away, and then all of a sudden, Sorry, mate, no, it's not a goal. And then the celebration looks It's embarrassing. I actually would be very surprised if they vote to keep it, but the trouble is there are hidden forces in football, Max, that often we don't see.

I think the two clubs would definitely get rid of it, a Wolverhampton Wonders and Nottingham Forest, because- I wouldn't be surprised if Forrest voted to keep it, Dave.

Honestly, I would not be the most Forrest thing to do.

Can you imagine if it's Mr. Marenackis voting? He'll vote proxy and just tell them, get rid of it, you're not going to win. The big fellow will be like, Oh, get rid. I think, really, it's interesting that we brought it up after Everton in whatever fashion we did and provoked good conversations, actually. Once, I think we calmed down a little, we provoked good conversations with the statements that we made, and I thought the statements then were adult, correct, fine. You I would have thought it would have been us racing, but in a way, it's good. It's wolves doing it now. So whereas the focus has been on us, has been the club, done by, by, by. And you know what? Personally, I'm a bloke. I accept decisions. If they go against it, so what? But the Willy Bollie sending off against Bournemouth, right? Shocking decision. Moda should have been sent off for Brighton for the awful tackle on Nico. He was looking not to get badly hurt. The one I was at Everton, and then there have been others. Do you know what I mean? So you can see why people are thinking, Why is that...

Was it Balotelli had the T-shirt on under his shirt where he said, What do we need? And there's a feeling like all the Forest fans are absolutely entitled to think somebody's got it in for us somewhere. I'm not one of them, but I can understand it.

Yeah, you can. But this week, it's not us, it's wolves.

And so if you like West Midlands to East Midlands, you almost think wolves have run Forest and said, What do you think? Forest said, Well, we've stuck our head above the forest, but wolves go, Don't worry, we'll do it for you this time. So wolves are leading up. So I'm absolutely Two of those 14 votes that you talked about, Max, are probably already there set in stone. That's Wolverhampton, Wonders, and Nottingham Forest. You talk about symmetry. They need 14 votes I want to be interested if the six that they didn't get were Tottenham, Hotspur, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool, Manchester United, Manchester City. And then that would get people thinking because obviously everybody, a lot of the ire and the disgruntlement is this idea that they're protecting the real big guns at the top, which, again, you can't dismiss out of hand. So 14 vote to get rid of VAR, six to keep it. Which are the six that kept And then we look at the list and, oh, the big six. To be honest, Max, when I saw it yesterday, I was thinking, Where's that coming? I was out most of the day anyway doing so.

And then saw it and I was like, Blimey, where's that come from? And it's come from Wolverhampton. We'll see what goes on, mate. Personally, I get rid of it because I think it takes away from the fan experience, and I don't think it helps the players to fully, emotionally invest in the game. Yeah.

No, I agree. God, could you imagine if they let podcasts vote on it? I think the Garaboyer team would be unanimous about voting against it.

Red card for the area.

I think The problem with it is, I'll chip my view into it, I think it could still exist, but they would need to basically, massively, almost reinvest it and look at it. And you mentioned there, XPro, was getting people like that involved. And also, I know as football fans, we don't have the most amount of patience in a stadium waiting for it to be decided, but feed the audio through from Stockley Park, through the PA system. Let fans in the ground listen to what they're saying and how they come to that decision. And also maybe treat it as a bit of a tennis system. Hear me out here, potentially the captain or the head coach of the team, you get maybe three challenges a half, for example, or five, and you basically can challenge anything. You could challenge a throw in a corner, a free kick, a yellow card, anything you want, you can challenge.

Great point, Max.

And then that way it stops the whole, well, VAR is always disrupting the game. Well, it isn't because the teams decide when it's used or when it isn't.

Mate, that's a great point that you make, actually. And I think why have you been talking so eloquently? There's a couple of things I've been thinking that in the NFL, one of the coaches gets to throw, I think, a red flag or something, say, I'm challenging that decision. Decision. In tennis, the challenge system in tennis has actually added to the experience, I feel, and it's added to the crowd experience, whether it's center court or number one court or whatever. A players get a certain amount of challenges per set, and then they get challenges per tie break, and it actually adds to it. In cricket, the review system, I think, works really, really well. Rugby League, Rugby Union, I know that I watch a lot of NRL, Australian Rugby League. They They get challenges right. So I think the point you make is a brilliant one. And with us, it'd be like our captain, whoever, it would be Yatesy or Morg or whoever making the challenge. That's a really good idea. The other thing I would say If you like the counter argument to dismiss it out of hand and get rid of it is that actually I don't have TNT, so I don't watch a lot of Champions League games, but the inference I get from listening to the media talking about is that actually, VAI is used really, really well in the Champions League and in Europe, where decisions are made quickly and effectively, and then they're more often than not right.

And there isn't the same level of irritation about what goes on. So I'm arguing against myself, if you like, but there's a second side to this argument that actually, when it's used correctly, it is powerful in helping the situation along. I think the problem with football is, not not a problem. The great thing about football that sets it apart, if you like, for many of the other sports that we talked about and we talk about, is most of those are games of distinct phases and set pieces and stages in the game. So in rugby, you've got a Scrum, and then you've got a line out. In the NFL, you've got the line of scrimage, and cricket, you've got an over or whatever. Football is all of one piece. It's constantly moving from one end to the other. It's almost like one entity that's not broken up into sections of play. And I think that's why with football, my view is that with football, that's why it's been so much more difficult to bring it in, because Because the game flows and it's almost like by the time you've considered a decision, the game's moved on.

And so by its very nature, we're always going to have to bring it back in a reverse time. And I think that's the real problem. I think it's the real conundrum.

We could talk about it for hours. I think you can do podcast- We could, mate. Literally forever on VAR. It's safe to say that Stuart Atwell won't be on our podcast in the summer. Sorry, I had to say that. All that well and good. Yes. Let's finish on the city ground and just a bit of a quid, and I'll let you have this say. I'm sure me and you are on the same path with this. Much talk this week, Marenackus did an interview with the male sport with his tattoos in an interesting photo about the city grounds and whether the forest will move. Basically, he So I can't say outright that Forest should move, but questioned for the club and the plans moving forward, whether Forest would have to reallocate eventually. Obviously, the Council have been in hot water with it. They're saying one thing, the ownership is saying the other thing. It's quite political with the whole thing. We're going to do more on it next week. We're hoping to get a few special guests on to talk about stadium plans and things. But Dave, just as a fan, as someone that's followed the club for so long, as someone that's been at the city ground as a season ticket holder for someone, follows the club week in, week out.

I'm assuming that you want everything done for Forest to stay at the city ground. It's as simple as that for you.

Absolutely, Max. Again, mate, we talked between the two of us at length of that in motion. And I get, maybe I'm an old romantic, I don't know. Often, heart leads head with me, which is why I've always ended up in a few dodgy positions here and there, mate. You know what I mean? Scenarios rather than positions, mate. Well, let's just get that clear. I just could not countenance leaving that incredible location at all. It's just the most brilliant place to watch football in the universe. There are some great football grounds, football stadiums in the world, right? But there isn't one like the city ground. It's unique. My heart beats faster every time I see it, whether it's like walking down the banks of the river or going around the back of the Bryant Club to get on a coach, go to an away game at seven o'clock in the morning or whatever. It's our home. It's where our heart resides. If we're going to move, I said to somebody, Can we take the river with us? Because the river gives it this mystical, sacred feel to it. I've heard some guys talking this week, some terrific Forest fans talk beautifully.

I know I admire when I listen to them talking about the walk over Trent Bridge, and you see it on the left, and you think... And I think for any away supporter, they wouldn't want... For a lot of away supporters. So next year, there'll be young Ipswich town fans, for example, who've never been to the city ground and will be, wow, when they see it, because it's unlike any other ground in the world. It's got its own character, its own aura about it. And they'll walk across, Dad, that's the city ground there. Mom, that's the city ground, whatever. And little young Ipswich town fans will think, Wow. And they'll be able to see it. I went to the city ground. I saw it. I walked over Trevor Bridge and I saw it. And it's home. My first experience with the city ground was when I was a young lad and I had a trial. I was really lucky because my dad was on the scouting staff and the legendary, the great man himself, Alan Hill, my absolute footballing hero. And big shout out to Alan. He's still one of the all time greats of me.

I love listening to talk about football.

And he listens to the podcast occasionally.

He does. He does. But I was lucky to have a game. I was a little lad, mate, wet behind the ears. And I remember Having this trial match, it was poorly not in July. I'll tell you when it was, it was between promotion to the first division and the start of the season where we won the league, right? And it was July. And I remember getting changed in the forest dressing room, going up the tunnel, out onto the the cinder track, which it was at the time, looking at the city, and it was a little bit ramshackle. There was like, Trent End was terracing, then the far side was terracing, and what's Bridgeford Road now, that was terracing. And it looked like it needed a lick of paint and all that. But it had a wow feel to it. And then you run down the banks of the river to where the training ground was. It's just I would be devastated, utterly, emotionally wrung out if we left there. I can understand that there are financial considerations and all this stuff. What is hamstrung as, Max? We're victims of our success, I think, with regard to this, because had we not won promotion when we did two seasons ago, I think the redevelopment to the ground would be either well underway by now or completed.

I think if we were still a Championship side, we'd say, Hey, we play the games with three sides of the ground and we get on with it. But having got to the Premier League, you cannot play in the Premier League. Nottingham Forest, from an atmosphere point of view and from a revenue point of view, could not have gone into the Premier League with just the Trent and the Brian Clough and Bridgeford and no Peter Taylor. We couldn't have done it. So I think promotion is where we were stymied a little bit because you think the plans came out, what they were going to do to make it. It was going to be 38,000, whatever. It looked great. They were going to help the boat clubs. There's all these other ideas that were going to make it. I thought when I first saw the plans, Max, the graphic realization of what was going to be done, I was like, wow, this is going to be fantastic. What an amazing stadium it's going to be. It's already an incredible stadium. Actually, the way it is, in many ways, it's our greatest weapon because the atmosphere that can be generated inside that quadrant has done wonders for us.

Last season, it was amazing. It's been a little bit more tempered this year, but then it's risen again to a crescendo. I thought the atmosphere last Saturday was fantastic. So I don't want to give a tone, Max. I hope I'm speaking for most of the sports. In the very name, it's Nottingham Forest. It needs to be inside the city limits, right? I mean, you could say Notts County. They can move to anywhere in the county because they are notts of the county. We're in Nottingham. We need to be in the middle of Nottingham. Whatever is said about Nottingham Forest, Max, forgive me from getting on my high horse now. Nottingham Forest is about the city of Nottingham, and it's about the people of Nottingham, and people like myself who live outside Nottingham, but have a great association with the city. And it's part of what makes Nottingham the most amazing city, in my view, on Earth, along with Rock City and all the other places in the city. And for me, it has to stay where it is. I think what's going on, and I've listened to some people who are far more knowledgeable than I about the situations, I think in these negotiations, there's a level of threat If this doesn't happen, we're going off to token, or if you don't do this, then all this business.

So it doesn't interest me. That's my niche that I'm not really bothered about. But I'm telling you now, mate, I don't want to watch Nottingham Forest anywhere, but on the banks of that river. We won't be able... Cluffy wouldn't be wanting to go anywhere else. And I always go back to Cluffy because he's the greatest. He's the God of Nottingham Forest for me. Always will be. What he says goes. So no, I'm latently passionate about. I think talking about it, Max has released all this pent-up passion. No, I don't go from there. And I don't think... It's when I think about an So many lovely people go to Nautican Forest matches. You travel home and away, but especially at home. I mean, take last Saturday, for example, there's so many people milling around outside the boot room by the club shop in the sun, having a drink, families together. We're all together when we hear Luton have taken the lead and Burnley have taken the lead. And then we all have this family upsurge where we hear that West Hamer have equalized and Tottenham have equalized, and it's all part of it. I just think it wouldn't be the same anywhere else, So I want to stay where we are.

It might happen. I'm 60, so if you're going to move, it wait till I'm gone. But actually, no. On behalf of everybody who's not in your voice, please let's stay where we are. I do. I heard Greg Mitchell this week. I listen to Greg, and Greg's another guy who's city-ground-centric. He's part of the fabric of the city-ground. And I listened to Greg, and he was very eloquent. He I don't want to go, and I don't want to go. I'm with Greg on that. Now, it's something I feel strongly, but I don't want to go to some out of town. I mean, Toton, right? All I knew about Toten when I was at Kibli, it was a train spot. It was a massive load of railway I didn't say it. It was like a big depot.

I don't want to go there, mate.

Say by the River match.

Good. Good. Spot on. Right. That does us nicely, I think. We could talk for hours, me and Dave. It's me rambling on, mate.

I'm really sorry.

It's all right, mate. You're welcome. It's a good job we let you do it. Thanks for coming on as always. Thank you, everyone. And also just to be transparent with viewers about the city ground situation, we asked Tom Cartler as a chairman for an interview last week about the plans and basically to do a podcast with him and for fans to put questions to him. Forrest rejected the request, so we've had nothing back. So maybe it will change in the summer. And if Tom's listening, Tom, we'd like to have you on the podcast and talk about it because it is such a big thing for Forrest.

Very emotive issue, Matt. It's very emotive. I mean, there's lots of emotive stuff. We've been emotive about VAR, we've been emotive about decisions. But this one is so fundamental to the Forrest way of life. It's the core of everything. It's the hub of everything. So the one thing that I wouldn't want is I wouldn't want the club over here and the fans over there and never the twain shall meet. We need to be all as one. When we've been all as one in our history, at the end of the '70s, in the '80s, a couple of years ago, we have done great things as this football club, and it needs to be all on the same page, singing off the same hinge sheet. So a hell of a lot of fans are going to have a hell of a lot of questions. And if Forrest just say, 'Spe to the hand, that is one of the worst PR mistakes that they could make for me. So let folks have this say. So many people care so deeply about this football club, me being one of them, you being another match, your family, my dad worked for Forest.

It's vital to keep that rapport between fan base and the club itself, because if that breaks down, then it's something wicked this way comes, mate. You know what I mean?

Definitely. Spot on, mate. Good words to end the podcast. Right. Fingers crossed, Forest, don't throw away a 12 goal advantage, please. Because that really wouldn't be great going into next week, especially given it's my birthday next week. I'm off to see take that at the city ground, and I don't want to be reminded that Forrest have thrown away a 12 goal advantage. Dave, I'm not going to get there because you'll start rambling on about your music. You need to listen to them once. The best of your views, not ours. Right. That'll do us nicely. Do give us a like, share and subscribe on YouTube. Follow us and leave us a review on Apple and Spotify podcast. We'll be back on Monday for our main final episode of the season, and then we'll announced summer plans in due course. But don't worry, we're not going anywhere. We're here for the foreseeable. You can't get rid of me and Dave, sadly. Yeah, do enjoy the rest of your week. Hope to see plenty of refs or blind refs in the away end at Surfmore. From me and Dave, come on, you, Reds.

Come on.