It was rocking yesterday. Joined on a sunny Sunday as the sun shines outside. Really, really warm. So apologies if you can hear a fan going. But joined by Mark Turner and Forest fan Steve Bennett, both Forest fans, both regulars to the podcast, who will hopefully tell us we're not going to concede 12 on the final day. Although you never know, it is Forest. Steve, let's start with you. At the game yesterday, as I was, what did you make of it? And just everything leading up to it, really, because I think everyone went into the city ground in a very ecstatic mood after the events from West Ham and Tottenham.

I got to the stadium a bit early. I was there with my son, Andrew, and we were in the concourse at the back of the Bridgeford end and everybody was watching the scores. And then this cheer went up as West Ham scored a second, and then Spurs scored, and then West Ham scored a third. I think at that point, everybody went, Right, it's all over. ' And the party started. And it's intriguing, isn't it? That 15 minutes to go, Callum Hudson-O'Doy's great but now typical goal really got the party started. And then, as you say, things didn't go quite as well as the last 15 minutes. And here we are the day after going, we're not going to lose a 12 goal deficit to Luton, are we? ' And I guess that says everything about being a Forest fan, really. How you can go from great party to ecstatic party to complete doubt all in the space of about two hours.

Yeah, typical Forest. We were just talking, actually, before we came and recorded this about that That's a stoke game, and how to never, ever trust Forest after that. I'm going to start the podcast with possible permutations for Forest to be relegated next week. Burnley could win 11-nil against Forest. Luton would have to win 1-nil. Burnley could win 10-nil. Luton could have to lose 10. Luton win 2. Burnley win 6-nil against Forest, and Luton wins 6-nil. I mean, come on. It's surely not going to happen, although you never know. Mark, what did you make of the game? Watching it from, I'm assuming, a sunny States and just the atmosphere, probably, I guess, in your living room, or were you out and about watching it somewhere in Colorado?

It's funny you should say that. I did have plans to go to the pub. Those, unfortunately, got waylaid. So yeah, it was just me in there. And the Poor dog again. He had to deal with my screaming. When that call of her's the dog goal went in, I literally, I'm a little bit raspy still. I drove myself horse when that ball hit the back of the net. That was fantastic. And Steve's right. I mean, that's a typical forest. It felt like we had our fairy tale ending. Callum Hudson-Hedoy, of all people, scoring the goal that secures our Premier League safety only for But I am delighted, Max, to be almost proven wrong. Obviously, I've been a bit of a naysayer here on the pod these last few months. But I was looking back over my notes from a pod, Max, when I think we had nine games to go. And you asked me whether I thought Forest would stay up. And I said, obviously, I want them to, but I'm really not sure that they will because I'm not sure where the points are going to come from. And I did some quick math and calculated.

I actually thought we might beat Chelsea yesterday. And I thought the best we could get out of Burnley was a point. Ending the season on 34 points, which I speculated, wouldn't be enough to stay up. We're on 29 points. If we get the draw against Burnley in the last game of the season, which I thought we'd get, that puts us on 30, and we know where the other four points are. Actually, my math would have been pretty darn good. But it is still just remarkable that we may end up staying in the Premier League this year on 29 points, which is, again, it feels very forest.

Yeah, it does. It's the worst, shall we say, that almost the teams in the relegation battle have been for a while. Thirty-five points is normally the average for clubs to stay in the Premier League in recent seasons. I mean, albeit that if Forest didn't have the forte If we were to have taken off them, we'd still be two points, one point away from that record.

I've got to say, I thought there was a great tweet today. I saw that this season PSR has done better than that derby side in 2007, 2008, because PSR got eight points from Everton and four points from us, and that's 12, and Derby only got 11.

Psr need to be careful, Steve, because they now need to sell a big player in the summer in order to stay within the parameters. So they're not going to be the same team this next year.

Let's see.

We are live on Facebook and YouTube, Willard. Nick says, Fantastic atmosphere yesterday. Mission accomplished. Chelsea are on form and have spent mega money on talent. An absolute pleasure to be at the city ground. Steve, let's start with your overall thoughts on the game, and in particular, the start. And we talk about the party atmosphere. Everyone goes into the city grounds. Muller Keentai was excellent yesterday. We'll touch on the chance about staying at the city ground later on in this podcast. But I thought we started really brightly, and for the majority of the game, it was a solid performance. The players seemed up for it. They showed that passion, that fight from the off, and really went for it, particularly in almost the wide areas. Obviously, Callum Hudson and Adoyu were going to touch on loads in a minute. And the same with Ola Eina, who had a brilliant game. And it just seemed like, as you just said, almost in a way, you go from a static to then typical forest, but it was a solid performance takeaway, almost the five minutes of madness.

I think it was... What can you say? It was very encouraging. It was a really strong performance. It was great to be at the city ground and not feel any pressure because in a sense, the other results had, hopefully, goodness me, have taken that out of our hands. We played really well. I thought Chelsea At times, it started in a frenetic style, and then it calmed down to a preseason friendly. And it was like one of those games when you play a European side before the season actually starts in a bright sunshine in the stadium, and everyone's really just sitting having a beer and going, 'Yeah, this is just an exercise. ' And Chelsea, for me, just didn't look bothered. And I kept thinking, 'They're there for the taking. ' And we played really well. I mean, to hit the woodwork three times in the second half Callum Hudson's 'O'Doy' goal. For me, the biggest change was the substitutions. And there are two elements to that: the level and quality of player that Chelsea were able to bring on in comparison to the level and quality of player that we brought on. And then that throws up the question, why on earth did we make some substitutions?

I mean, there are so many times, aren't there, where we've had games, when we've gone... Ryan Yates is not the technically most gifted player in the world, but flipping heck, he works hard. He knows how to play. He was doing a really good job against Cole Palmer, and he looked stunned when he was taken off. And why take off somebody like Ryan Yates with 15 minutes to play in that fixture when you two on up. And that then caused, I think, disruption in the forest set up. Chelsea brought on... When you bring on Ryan Sterling and Reece James and their other mega players. It reminded me a little bit of the Spurs game where we were on top, and then at halftime, he brought on Bentecker and Huyberg, just better quality players off the bench. But it was disappointing to lose it. And therefore, I think it does bring into question that some of the decision making, and I've talked about this before on the podcast, some of the decision making, and for me, some of the leadership off the pitch in terms of how those decisions are made. So very encouraging. If we play like that next Sunday, then you can come out, you can come away with your Hawaii shirt and everybody will be very happy, Max.

And, yeah, we've done enough just, but goodness me, 29 points is a ridiculous total to have the 37 games, even allowing for the four-point reduction.

Yeah, it'd be interesting to see whether I do get the Hawaiian shirt out. I'm undecided yet because mathematically, we aren't safe. It would be the most forest thing, wouldn't it, to do to concede 12 on the final day while everyone stood there in their Hawaiian shirt. It's not going to happen. I keep telling myself. Mark, do you agree there? And in particular, before we look at standout performances and the positives from yesterday, because there was plenty. But it was poor substitutions again. And Nuno has been criticized a lot for that in his short tenure as forest manager. But as Steve said then, why bring off Ryan Yates? I don't think Chris Wood should have stayed on the pitch as long as he did. I think that maybe he should have even made the change early with Taewo. Again, he's almost in this gold route that he's coming towards. And also bring the Langer on. Langer has massively gone off the boil, and it just felt like almost Forest didn't need to make substitutions for once. And they really did impact the game, an almost poor in-game management, you could argue from Nuno.

It's always easy to be wise after the fact. We bring these players on in good faith. You believe they're going to do something, whether it's turn the tide, whether it's address something the other team are doing. In the case of Ryan Yates, obviously, as you know, I'm his biggest fan. And so I did not want to see him withdrawn, but I don't know how well you guys could see in the stadium. He was involved in that tackle, I think it was in the first half, and they actually removed his shin pad. So we could see on TV, he had a nasty gash on his leg, and it already looked like it was starting to swell up. So there may have been issues there that necessitated him being withdrawn. I agree with you, Max. I'd like to have seen Taewo come on earlier. Chris Wood right now, I don't know what's going on. I'm not going to say, Oh, Chris Wood, he's rubbish, and this, that, and the other. He's had a fantastic year for us, and we're grateful for him in the absence of Tywo. But yeah, clearly, the last half dozen games, he's just gone off the boil massively.

So it would have been nice to see Taewo get on there and bully the Chelsea defenders. And I know we're supposed to be talking about Forest today, but I have to say the substitution that bored me the most, given them my attention is to start to turn. Anyone who's watching on my England mug here that I'm drinking that of Reece James. No, obviously, I wasn't happy to see him provide the assist for what ended up being the winning goal, but it certainly was nice to see him back on the field and bolster England's Euro prospects further.

Yes.

Yeah, I agree with that. I just wonder, unfortunately, whether it's too late for him. I mean, I'd love to see him go to the Euro.

Yeah, he's one of Gas' favorites. You know how it goes. I think Ivan Tony might still end up on the plane, and I don't know how.

No. Anyway.

Anyway, back to Forest. We'll talk your Euros in a few weeks. Mark says, Amazing atmosphere. We shouldn't have lost that game. Certainly poor last goal to concede. And again, poor subs. Changes were not needed. Boli, very good. And Eina, this one from Andy, similar to the looting game at home from winning positions and give up two goals in the matter of minutes.

That is right. Can I just say very quickly on the Eina thing? About 10 minutes into the match, I was like, he is on fire today. And then I made a point of watching him and watching him in isolation and also in context with the rest of the game. I'm going to get all hyperbolic here. Outside of Palmer, MgDub, and Murillo, I don't think there was a better player on the field yesterday. Ina was fantastic.

Yeah. No, I completely agree.

And we'll talk about transfer.

Right.

Although, I think he has signed for a third of the year, hasn't it? As has Chris Wood.

Yeah. I'm happy with both of those.

Chris Wood is back up. Yeah, it's good news on both. Yeah.

We'll touch on Aina in a minute. Wanted to get your thoughts, Mark, on typical Forest almost conceding too very quickly. It almost is the story of this season, and that's got to be something they have to work on in the summer. There's a lot of talk, whether a new coach or anything like that. But let's say that Nuno is here and it's part of the rebuild project, then that has to be such a big thing that him and his coaching staff and also the players on the pitch just simply have to work on because it almost seems to be this mentality thing, doesn't it? Of conceding quickly. And you almost know when Forest a goal, we're going to concede and they're going to go down the other end and score straight away. It's almost inevitable.

Yeah, it's the number one thing. It might be the only thing, actually, Max, that they need to be focused on this summer because I think midfield through a time is pretty good. We need to deepen our attack. We said this many times this season, but for a team of Forest's stature to essentially have one fit number nine is ridiculous. So hopefully, Taewo his fitness issues a resolve for this next season, and his impact is as negatively as it has this year. But I still feel like we need another number nine on the squad anyway, a good one, not a rigi. Beyond that, if we can hold on to everybody, then I feel pretty good about what we have in midfield and going forward. Defense is where the work needs to be done. The good news is that we have the raw talent there. We have a lot of experience and maturity in guys like Bolley and even Nikkarti, who I know is not an old head, but he's been around the block. He was obviously captain of his former team in the Bundesliga. So we have some guys in there who know what they're doing.

And then I think we have some good young talent that could be molded as well. Again, assuming we can hold on to, in particular, Marillo. But yeah, one thing I will say, Max, yesterday about conceding. We didn't We didn't see the goal from a set piece. Can we celebrate that?

Yeah, it's a round of applause. Yeah, you're right. Almost another positive to come from yesterday was not conceding from a set piece.

Yeah, I put on Twitter yesterday because And we scored from a set piece. That's right.

Yeah. Yeah, that's right.

And that was the moment, Steve. I put on Twitter. I'm like, Isn't it refreshing to be playing another team in the Premier League who are just as bad at set pieces as we are? Chelsea were pretty poor at both ends with their set pieces, so it could have equalized things. Yeah.

We can put that in the trophy cabinet for this season. It will take pride in there in Marion Ackersy's trophy cabinet. I wanted to talk Talk about Ola Aina, and you mentioned there, Mark, how brilliant he's been. I just feel like at the moment, and he did it against City, up against Kyle Walker, and we saw him almost skin him, as you like, a lot. And he almost seems free, and he's in that attacking role. It creates space. He's with Callum Hudson Ador. They've got a great partnership going on. And he just seems to be such a key player, doesn't he, Yeah, he really does.

And it's come out of nowhere. I think that obviously as a fan base, we knew what to expect from Toffolo. We'd seen in the previous year in the Championship. We knew what to... Well, we thought we knew what to expect from Montiel after having seen him in the World Cup. Can't believe we've got an entire season and he hasn't taken a penalty. That being said, we've been given what? One penalty this year or something ridiculous? So yeah. But if we go on against Burnet, I'd love to see him take it on his send-off. That's what I'm hoping. He'll miss it. I'm hoping he had. He'd be very forest. But no, Aina has been a breath of fresh air. And the thing I think that's most impressive about him is he's gotten stronger as the season has gone on. I think him, He and Nico Williams have been a real high point, surprise, defensively this year. In a defense that's been all over the place. It's been predicated on individual high performances like, Oh, Moreno had a fantastic game. Yeah, but as a unit, we didn't play well. Look, we can see it from two corners again.

That's been the makeup of the season. But I think Eina and Williams have been really solid. Like I said, they've gotten better as the season has rolled on.

Yeah, for sure.

I think it's interesting about Eina, and I wonder if there's a connection. His performances in the last five or six games have just been exceptional. I think that coincides with the announcement that he got a contract for next year. I've touched on this before. We forget sometimes that these players are human beings. And therefore, if you're somewhere like Eina and he's come to the club, and then all of a sudden He knows he's secure for another twelve months. All those pressures about, 'Where am I going to play next season? Where am I going to live? Where's my family going to be? ' are taken away, and he can then look forward to next season. That's got to have a positive impact on the person and therefore a positive impact on the way that those people play.

That's a really nice point. Totally agree. This comment from nick as well, which is quite interesting. We've had Cash Lolly, then Spence, Ben and Johnson. Now it's Ola, Eina, and Alan Hudson at all. That's a really good point, actually.

Isn't Cash Lolly? Aren't they interchangeable words for money. I love that. It just occurred to me.

Do you know what, Mark? I was actually talking to a friend about that the other day. We always talk about iconic commentary lines. When Matty Cash scored late on, I think it was against West Brom a few seasons ago in the promotion in the season, the commentator said, Matty Cash, priceless. It was brilliant. My favorite commentator lines ever. God, if we could have Matty CashCashback, hey. But who needs him when we've got-Cashback? Yeah. This isn't turning into a fun podcast.

It's like a carry on podcast over here.

God, it's Steve, Max won't know what the reference is to carry on. No, I do not. I've heard of it.

I was thinking of the days of Nigel Doe tea.

Oh, very good.

Right. Moving swiftly on. Let's talk Callum Hudson-Hedoy and just how brilliant he's been and been recently as well. Eight goals for him this season. It just brings that creativity, that attacking threat, and defenders still letting him almost cut inside and having that trademark Hudson Adoy goal against his former club. So nice to see Steve. What have you made to Hudson Adoy recently and how crucial can he be next season as well?

I think it's, and I hadn't done this deliberately, I think it's probably related to my last point. He's settled. He's in a side who know how he's going to play. He's playing with players who know where he's going to be. He's comfortable. And then all of a sudden, he's got a good run of games. And guess what? He feels better about himself and his performance improves. I remember going to the FA Cup game against Bristol City away, and there was a guy behind me in the crowd who, and I can't repeat what he was saying, but he gave Hudson and Doy absolutely dogs abuse to the point where, and I quote, he was the worst player he'd ever seen play football. Why was he on a pitch, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And there were a number of us who I had to have a word with this guy behind us because he was just abusive. Almost since that moment, he's been fantastic. I think that if you think of what's gone on beforehand for Hudson andoy, His time at Chelsea, he had a bad injury, and then he got released by Chelsea, and it didn't really work out.

He's found a place he loves playing in with other players who he gets on well with. It's clear the relationship that there is between him Alanger. Alanger was fantastic early in the season. He's dropped off a bit, and we can come on to reasons for that. I think some of the players are just exhausted, but I think Hudson Adoy is coming to his own, and therefore the prospects for him for next season are really, really strong. Let's be clear, the fact that we are safe, goodness me, we can now start planning for next season, and it's only May the 12th. I mean, that's a big difference. Because otherwise, I think if we were going to get relegated, players like Hudson Adoy, Langer, Gibbs White, Murillo, and others, Chris Wood, probably, would all be out the door. And heaven knows what would end up to our famous club. But I think if you can carry on and be loved, and that's often the secret with many players, then it could be a really strong That's it. And what a buy at three million quid.

Yeah, unbelievable. Do you know, Steve, you're talking about being unsettled and players getting contracts and the summer rebuild. Just wait until we have the Garibaldi red rebuild this summer. I don't know if you and Mark will still be around. We'll have to see.

I think it starts from the point of view. It depends whether we're invited, doesn't it? And then whether we get the chance to approve of anything is completely up to the... But anyway, you've signed your life away, haven't you? Some little lad who's after four years time, he's going to be taking over from you. Yes.

In fact, Steve, you've given me a nice leeway into giving a shout out to the young lad, Joshua, who came up to me at the game yesterday. And he asked me if he could take the podcast on. I said, Yeah, of course, mate, in a few years. So he got his little notebook and he made me a contract to sign to say that he has the podcast in four years. So shout out to Joshua.

You should get him on.

Yes. Well, hopefully we're We're going to get him on. So fingers crossed. You never know, he might be the next host. He might take over in a couple of weeks.

He've only got four years, Steve. Just got a hold on for four years till we get to work with a good host. Just hang on there, mate.

Somebody who respects the guests and everything else, mate.

Four years? Because that's a long time. You might be...

I want to jump in on the back of what Steve has said very quickly, not to gild the lily too much, but I think Steve's absolutely right. I think we forget that these players are human beings. We see them on these PR video pieces that come out of the club, these marketing clips, and these bright young men and tons of money and covered in tattoos and smiling and messing around. It just looks like they're on top of the world, and they are. They're doing the thing we all wish we could have done, right? Play football professionally. What a dream career. But the reality is they have the same trials and tribulations. They have the same mental stresses. They have the same worries and concerns that we all do. Money doesn't take that away exclusively. I think Callum Hudson-Adoy is a great representation of a confidence player, right? Somebody who needs to know who's loved, who needs to know who's wanted. I think as well, and again, I don't know him. We only see him on match day, but he looks to me like a player as well who's eminently coachable. That's a manager's dream, players who want to listen and learn and get better.

I think he has all the attributes to not only be around the communities and max, but honestly, to be a modern day Forest great. I think he's the player who could be around the city ground for five or six years and really rack up some good statistics and become one of those players who's truly loved by the Forest Faithful. So hopefully that's what we see from him.

You never know, Mark, by the time you and I are ground hopping in the 2026 World Cup, he might be back in the England's Cup.

I mean, stranger things have happened. Yeah, absolutely.

Where's my invite? That's why I'm asking.

Start saving, Max.

That's 2026, Max. We'll be working with a new host by then. Brilliant.

I can't even come back from that. Right, let's talk, John, on Morgan Gibbs-White, because I've got to give him a mention. This stat came out yesterday evening. Only Ollie Watkins, with 12, has more Premier League assists than Morgan Gibbs-White with 10 so far this season. So when you think about Morgan as well, and he has missed a couple of games this season, but not many. But just think about if Not if he was in a better team, that sounds almost disrespectful to Forest and the current players, but if Morgan was in a team like Man City, what contributions he'd offer there. And it just shows how crucial he is to Forest. And Mark, we run out of superlatives to talk about Gibbs-White. He just gets better and better, and he almost leads the line yesterday. And one thing I notice about Morgan as well is his almost can-do attitude, similar to Ryan Yates and even Callim Hudson, the joy we're touching on there. When he gets fouled or when he loses the ball, he's straight back up and he's there getting it back. And you just feel like he almost bleeds forest at the minute, Morgan gives white on and off the pitch.

Yeah. He's an odd one because, well, first off, he has a song, which I think is dead a lot for his confidence issue. Coming back to confidence. We need a song for Callum, Herson Adoy, If One Doesn't Exist. And I want to suggest Spandar Ballet Gold. So somebody needs to work with that. Chow, Gold. It's going to be something there. So anyway, coming back to Morgan Gims White, though. He is an odd one because I think you would characterize him as a flair player. When you generally look at flair players in the Premier League, your Fodens, your Watkins, your Cole Palmer's, You generally see them as being exclusively offensive. They're carrying the ball, they're dribbling, they're scoring worldies from 20, 25, 30 yards. You don't think about them really putting in the hard yards, rolling up their sleeves and getting back, getting behind the ball, and just giving it all. I think when we think about that in Forest, our intentions immediately turn to Ryan Yates. But Morgan Gibbs-White, he does both sides of it. He give you the there, please. He'll link up the attack. But he also gives 110 %. I hate using that phrase, but he does.

He gives 110 % getting back, hustling, getting behind the ball, getting his tackles in, shouting at the ref, stirring up his teammates. Yeah, he's been fantastic this year. It really has. I know a lot has been said about Murillo, and he's our player of the season. I think that's a good shout, but I think my vote would still go to Morgan Gibbs-White. I think he's been the most valuable player for us this season.

You agree there, Steve. You think that I was actually going to come onto that in terms of player of the season, that you'd be giving it Morgan Gibbs-White, or you'd be attempting to give it to Murillo?

I think I'd give it to Morgan Gibbs-White. I think Murillo has been fantastic, and I think I'm right in saying he's not missed the game. I mean, there's times he's gone off injured, but I don't think he's missed a game. But I think the team revolves around Gives-White. For me, I think he's the captain on the pitch. I think he should probably get that recognition next year. I mean, it was interesting. The last time I was on, I think it was Dave made a point about how he probably feels that he's got to repay the fee because it's a fee that's going to grow from the original 25 million. But he's a fantastic asset to the club. And you hear people criticize him occasionally There's a guy behind me criticizes him quite often with his flicks that don't come off. But you can't stop him doing that. You can't say to Morgan, gives me a wine. I only want you to try the 50 % of flicks and tricks that work. Don't try the other 50 %. And he's clearly built up a relationship now with Hudson Adoy in the same way as he had last season with a one year.

He's absolutely the focal point for me of the team. I'd build the team around him I hope, goodness me, I hope he stays.

I mean, that goal yesterday, that Callum Hudson Adoy scored, fantastic goal. I mean, the execution on that goal was fantastic. But that came from Morgan Gibbs-White, driving through midfield. The link up play with him at a langer, and then a wonderful ball to put Hudson Adoy in position to be able even to finish that goal. So, yeah, he's in the middle of everything. I agree with Steve. He's the heartbeat.

Yeah, for sure. And it almost is a shame the Media report that Forest have to sell somebody again to balance PSI. It's not just the media that think that, but staff at the club will know in terms of balancing the books, as you like, Forest will probably have to Sally the Murillo or Morgan gives. But you never know, it could be someone else or a few players together. When you talk about Callum Hudson, the Doys fee as well, Steve, for just three million, and then you look at 40 million, give or take, for Sangari and just the difference of quality already. I know they're two completely different players, but you just look at professional footballers and how much you pay for them is this barbie.

I think you need to be careful making that comparison, Max. I think Sangari He came and was played out of position, never got the chance to settle, then went to Afcom, and he's not really in it. And it's not a time to bring him back when we're just trying to be desperate for points, and Nuno is trying to get a settled squad. I would really hope that, when we've not really talked about the manager, but whoever leads the team into next season gets a really good preseason, which includes Sangari, because you don't bring a player in of his level for his fee who's rubbish. But there was some anxiety. My understanding is some anxiety when he first came in is they didn't want to play him in his position because that last line of defense in front of the back line, if he were to make a mistake, it would shatter his confidence, and then it would be a real disaster. So they played him out of position to not risk him, but playing him out of position didn't allow him to develop in the way that he needed to to play his game. That was the way that he was treated.

Then he never really got settled into the side. Then he went to AFCOM, so he's not really featured. You could argue, or I will argue, that come next season, he's a new player. And let's not put him on a pedestal and go, Yeah, it's Sangari, it's crap. ' Let's look at him. We've got a £35 million player there that we brought in from PSV. Avoid, decided to come to Forest and not play in the Champions League. He's a quality player. So let's give him an opportunity next year.

I want to just jump in. So I agree. I'm going to sound maybe a little hypocritical here in that If we sold Zangari this summer and it meant we didn't have to sell NGW or Rillo, I'm perfectly okay with that. That being said, I absolutely agree with everything you just said, Steve, largely because there's two things that players can't control when they come to a club. The circumstance finances surrounding their arrival, and how the coach sees them, or how they're going to get played. You have no control over that. You don't get to rock up to any team and say, Right, I'm here to play the six. You play me in the six. From the start, off we go. You have no control over that. You step in, and you roll the dice. It's up to the coach. The other thing is the transfer fee. Again, you have no control over that either. When I look at what players are assigned for, I try not to pay too much attention to that and certainly not let it influence my perspective on that individual. I think it's healthier to amortize almost the cost of the team and say, rather than looking at Sam Gowery at 35 and Chou at three, instead, look at what we spent for this starting 11 and say, does that represent good value for money?

Was that money well spent? Are we seeing the outcome from the money spent there. It's difficult to do that because Sangari was such a big ticket item, but I think Steve is right. I think you got to give him a fair... If he's still here, you got to give him a fair crack of the whip this next season. There's no doubt he is a decent player, and hopefully we see more from him next year because we're going to need to. We're going to need to, particularly if Morgan Gibbs-White is out the door between now and next season.

Let's wait and see. I think there's a lot of rumors of who will leave and who will be offered contracts. You forget that players like Harry Arta are still at the football club, which is just- When does it end?

When does his contract over? I know it's this summer.

Next Sunday, well.

Okay. All right. Good deal.

He might feature against Burnley.

Wouldn't that be awesome?

We should all turn up at Burnley and Harry Arta masks.

He does have a song as well. Going back to my earlier comment, doesn't Harry Arta have a song?

No, I don't think so. I can't remember.

If he does, Mark, it's probably no longer worth repeating.

He's been with the team so long. If he has a song, it must be set to the tune of a Frank Sinatra song, I would imagine.

Let's touch on the summer, even though we have got one game left and providing Forest don't lose 12-nil next Sunday. I keep saying it in case it honestly does, but it will be okay. It will be all over next Sunday, and then the summer ahead, the rebuild starts then. Steve, you touched on there about Sangari in which manager comes through the door and whatnot. You still think that Forest should keep Nuno? I know that you like talking about stability and you think that we should have stability. I can see you are in there, but do you think that Nuno Nuno is the right man to lead us forward, or would you be tempted to make a change and get someone in to have a full summer? They've got to make the change quickly, so they've got as much time as possible with the squad for preseason.

I think it's a really difficult decision. I think there's a lot to be said for stability, and I've always banged on about that. Personally, I'm just not convinced that Nuno is the right guy to take us forward. I was looking at some stuff on Twitter earlier, X on earlier, and There's a real balance of comments on fans, and it's probably 50/50 about whether you keep him, whether you let him go. The 50 in favor would say, We need stability and we are playing a more attacking style, but we need to sort out the defense. The 50 are not saying, Well, he hasn't really pulled up any trees, excuse the pun. Our performances, our points total haven't significantly improved, which they haven't. I don't I think it's going to be impossible, isn't it, to have the same rapport with the fans as Steve Cooper had. But there's lots of characters and personalities out there that would look to develop that rapport with the fans. And it just doesn't strike me as... There's no inspiration comes from him. There were some people walking away from the ground yesterday saying on 85 minutes yesterday, he was standing on the touchline, twiddling his and arms crossed.

I made the point a few weeks ago, it's exactly the same as happened at Everton. We were one-nil down at Everton. We hadn't got the third penalty or third potential penalty. And he was just standing there on the touchline with his arms crossed and not cajoling anybody, not encouraging anybody. Murillo came over for a drink. He never spoke to him, whereas Sean Deitch was up and around everyone. I'm not saying that Sean Dych would be right for us, but I think we need somebody on that such line who's more animated, who the crowd and the fans can relate to. I just don't see it being him, but I'm not sure who's available and who's around. I mean, there's going to be something of a manager, Mary go around this summer, isn't it? When you look at what Oliver Glazner has done at Crystal Palace, we missed a trick there, really, didn't we? By comparison, you have to say. I'm really, really not convinced. I'd be very happy if we made a change, but it to be made a week on Monday to give anybody coming in the door the maximum amount of time to do it.

If we didn't change him, I, of course, had to support him. He's my club's manager, but I'd have a question, Mark.

You agree there, Mark, because the football has been better since Nuno has come in. But you just wonder if you'd have kept Steve Cooper, where Forest would be now and if, buts and maybe's, and that's the Everyone talks about it in football. Billy Davis used to say, Fine margins and all of that. But do you think Nuno is the right man still, or would you make a change, as Steve alluded to?

As you know, typically, I'm not shy in voicing an opinion. This is one of the rare occasions where I feel like I need to sit on the fence because I genuinely don't know how I feel about this. I understand what Steve's saying in terms of the type of manager, but I think there's more than one way to manage, just like there's more than one way to skipper. Some people feel like MGB should be the skipper. I just feel it should be Yates. Everyone has their preference. They like what they like and they know what they want to see. I don't know that for me that has a particular bearing. I'm not looking for a particular style of manager. What I'm looking more for is, do I see the influence of a manager on the team? Do I feel like what has happened to this team since Nuno came in has elevated it above and beyond what we were doing with Steve Cooper? Is there a delta between what went before and where we are today? And on occasion, there has been. We've seen some high point performances. Yesterday was a good one. Game against City was a good one.

Nuno's first game against Newcastle. There have been moments. And then you have to ask the question, Okay, so is that Nuno? Or is that just the players showing up that day? So I don't know, Max. Like I said, I'm firmly on the fence for this one. I think I'm probably, though, at the end of the day, I'm where Steve is in as much as if opening a game in next season, Nuno is on the touchline, I'm not going to be ticked off about it. By the same token, I'm not going to be crying into my pillow if it's some other fella.

Yeah, we'll have to see. It'll be interesting what direction the club goes in, not just with the manager, but with everything, really, this summer. A huge rebuild project.

What do you think, Max? What do you think? Do you think Nuno is delivered on what Marenake has asked for? No, seriously, because the remit was, Keep us in the division. I mean, by the skin of our teeth, we're in the division.

Yeah. I just wonder when the Marenake's ownership made a change, did they expect... This is before points deductions even came. Surely the ownership knew that Forest were close. I think they did. But they probably wanted it to be slightly better.

Not think they did. They absolutely knew that they were going to come across PSR. Absolutely knew.

I think that they thought they could do better in terms of a lead position and finish. I just think we're not talking about challenging for Europe here, given when Cooper departed, we were near the other end of the table. But I think they're so ambitious and they almost have a plan in their head that Forest, whether you agree with it or not, they want Forest to finish in Europe in the next few years.

Absolutely.

And has the last six months Nuno shown that we can finish in Europe? Probably not.

That's exactly the question, Max. You've taken us to exactly the right conclusion on that, which is... I said the remit was keeping the division, we're in the division. But to your point, Max, that wasn't the ultimate remit. I think this was a job interview for Nuno to say, Keep us in the division and... Are you the guy that takes us up challenging for top eight, top six, whatever Lofty Heights Maranacas has in mind? I don't think we've seen evidence enough yet of So it'll be interesting to see what Marion Ackersvick thinks, because at the end of the day, that's the only opinion that matters.

Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised to see a change, certainly soon as well. And another manager coming. And I think their fairy tale is a big name. I think they really want somebody with a big name. No disrespect to Nuno and of course, Steve Cooper, but I just have an impression that the ownership will want a big name to be in charge of Forest. It's their dream and adds to that European fairy tale as well. Got a touch on it, talking about the ownership and off the field issues about the city ground and staying and talks this week. There was an article released by Danny Taylor for The Athletic, where he interviewed the chairman Tom Cartlidge. Many chants were around the city ground yesterday. I've got to say it, so excuse the French, but Totun is a shit hole. I'd rather stay here, which did make me laugh. Do you agree with that, Steve? I know you're involved with the Supporters Trust, so you might have dialogs and discussions with the club this summer. What do you think and almost what's your stance on it in terms of moving and ground redevelopment?

I think it's a really complex question. Let me try and explain that. It's not a simple, do we go or do we stay? I think, and we, as the Trust, believe strongly that whatever the decision is, there has to be some open dialog. The way that the news came out this week, and not everybody would, but credit to Danny Taylor for getting the story and publishing the story, because what a remarkable reaction that then caused yesterday. That's not the way to do it. Club, Tom Cartilage, the way to do it is actually to have a dialog with the people who are important, which are the fans, and to get some of the fans two points into the conversation. Ultimately, the decision might still be to move, and if it is, it's a purely commercial decision. It's nothing to do, I feel, personal view about, is there a dispute with the council? Are we being charged too much? Is the amount that the council want too much? I feel that's a bit of a red herring. It's convenient at the moment to go, right, the council are not playing ball. We don't want the rental raised from a quarter of a million to the figures that are being banded around around a million.

We're a Premier League side, for heaven's sake. I mean, £750,000 is going to keep Harry Arta employed for about four months. So next season, we can certainly afford it if that's where we choose to spend our money. What is clear, and I've been a season ticket holder for 47 years now, is the city ground is special. Now, it's a very emotional place, and football And football is a very, very emotional support, a sport. So when things are going well, you wouldn't want to be anywhere else than the city ground. When things are not going well, it's just another stadium. And there have been plenty of times in the last 47 years when it's been both. But it is our heritage, it is our history. And whether you're an old fan like me, you've been going for many years or a young fan like you and you've come into it more recently, it's a very, very special So if the decision of the ownership is going to be that we need to move or they feel we need to move, then I believe that they need to pay due respect to that decision and pay due respect to the people who it's going to affect, i.

E. The fans, the fans in the stadium, the fans who'd want to be in the stadium. They need to be able to have some consultation. It needs to be an open process. They can't just... I mean, I sent a tweet out earlier. I don't think they can impose a stadium change on us in the same way they've imposed season card, great, huge season card prices for some people this year. There has to be a dialog. There was no dialog around the season card prices. There was a presentation made to the FAB. This is all in the public domain. There was a presentation made to the FAB. And then a few days later, the new ticket prices weren't really established. There wasn't any consultation in any sense of the word consultation. So I and we as the Trust would really support and indeed the wider FAB, which includes a number of obviously, Fawzia, Punj Reds, a number of supporters groups, the US group. There needs to be some dialog. There needs to be conversation. There needs to be somebody saying, Look, guys, we have a stadium that's 30,000. We need to do something with it because we're not getting the revenue to survive.

We can increase it to 40,000, and Actually, if we do that, we're going to have to change all four stands because all four stands are in various states of disrepair, woeful facilities, not treating us as Premier League customers, if that's an interesting word. So there's a huge expense around that. But it is our family home, and there needs to be some respect of our family home, I believe. If at the end of the day, somebody says, do we as a fan group want to compete with the Man City, the Arsenal's, the Man United, the Spurs, the Chelsea's, et cetera? Yes, we do. Do we want to do it consistently long term? Yes, we do. Then we're going to need a 50, 60,000 seat of stadium, and the city ground can't be converted into that. So therefore, the only choice is, okay, at that stage, we need to find a new place to go and play football. But that That's the process. Once you've decided on, 'We need a new stadium, then you go and find somewhere. And let's be honest, this is not a two month or six month or a one year decision. This is going to take two, three, four, maybe five years to to get to that stage.

And then at that stage, where's the best location to accommodate all the desires and emotions or wishes, not only of the fans who do come to the ground, but also the city of Nottingham, the people of Nottingham, the businesses that are going to get affected, all the infrastructure around it. If you're an away fan or you're a home fan that comes into the city on the train, how the hell do you get to Toton from the from Nottingham Station? An immediate question. Yeah, you need to put a tram line in. Yeah, but a tram line doesn't come cheap, so that needs the council's consideration. So this is not a two-second conversation. Yeah, the Council are not playing ball. The city ground is not big enough, so we're going to move. And let's look at Toton, or let's look at the site in the city center near Binks Yard, or let's look at the A453 coming into Nottingham, or let's to look at Rack Cliff Power Station, et cetera. I believe you can't make that decision just like that. There's a whole process you've got to go through if you want to keep people on board.

If you don't want to keep people on board and just want to stick a finger up to them, then make the decision. But I thought it was remarkable yesterday, the singing that came out, because it wasn't planned. Nobody had put it together. There was nothing on Twitter beforehand. In this minute, let's sing this. And I posted a message to a couple of friends. I hoped that the management of the club were not only there, but were listening. And when I drove home, it was interesting on Radio Nottingham, they were saying that probably about 15, 20 minutes after the game, Evangelos Marinoffis and Tom Cartlidge were on the pitch, and Marinoffis was pointing at various stands almost as though, and this was the inference from Radio Nottingham, right, let's do that one, and then we'll do that one, and then we'll do that one, and let's have a go at that one, or what we're going to do with each of those, as opposed to, let's collapse them all and go somewhere else. Now, that's pure speculation, pure conjecture. But there has to be a dialog. A rant over.

Spot on. Spot on. It's a very, very, very good rant. I think you speak for many people, Steve, including me. Mark, just before we go, any final thoughts on the ground or from what Steve said there?

No, I'm definitely not going to try and gild that particularly. Clip it up and put it out there. Steve nailed it. Fantastic. Good job, Steve. What we just asked going to the final game in the season, evidently, Arsenal just taking the lead against Man United, for those who are interested.

Excellent.

Fantastic. Very happy about that. No, in closing, Max, just one thing for any of our American listeners, viewers. It's American Mother's Day over here. So it's all the American moms. Happy Mother's Day. You have a great one.

Very nice. That's lovely. What a nice note to end on. I've got a few notes to end on. Sarah messaged me to say, Can we give a shout out to Neil, Steven, and Sam from Sutton, Nashville, who met Sarah yesterday and said they were big fans of the podcast?

You got to be on the podcast, Sarah, to share messages. Sorry, Sarah. Editing that, no.

No, sir. He's having a day of rest on a Sunday.

On a Sunday? Good grief.

Yeah, see? Whereas I'm working. Give me a pay rise, eh. Right. That does us nicely. I think we will see you this week for our last preview before the last game of the season. Our way at Burnley, I am still deciding whether to wear my Hawaiian shirt. Steve, are you going to join me wearing one?

Well, this is going to sound a bit sad. The only way I could absolutely guarantee a ticket for Burnley next week, because you and I know that there's a group of us that go, and I end up being the ticket master because... Well, that's a strange phrase, isn't it? Because usually people are at work and us are the people who can manage your own time. And I knew this time I wasn't going to be able to do that because I was away in a meeting. So we've taken the bold decision, five of us, to go down the corporate train and pay an arm and a leg. So I'm not sure that Hawaiian shirts at the corporate do for Forest would be wholly appropriate, but we will be there, Max, cheering as we always do. It'll be my 32nd Forest game of the season. I don't know if you get a medal for that, but as you don't get a medal for 47 years, why should you get a medal for 32?

Enjoy your pride, Sam.

I was just about to say that while I'm slumming it in the away and with the wooden seats there are in Burnley's away end.

We'll still be in the wooden seats, Max.

Oh, right.

Is it still- We'll still be in the wooden seats, but we will get a little bit of catering beforehand and there's a conversation with one of the ex- players. I don't know. I don't think it's been completely confirmed yet, but we'll see. I look forward to seeing you in your Hawaiian shirt, you and your brother and your dad on Sunday, Max.

I'll give you a wave. I look forward to it. Filling your face with Prawn sandwiches. I will be down to the pub, just so you know.

Okay. I'm going to the pub with an Arsenal fan, so hopefully I'll be happy and we'll see if he's agonizing like a Forest fan.

Well, you don't realize, Mark, but if Forest Chris, do blow this twelve goal difference. You're presenting the podcast next week.

We've already got a replacement, Max. It's just a very young guy, but Mark and I can lead him through. It'll be no problem.

Yes, I'm sure. Good luck to him. That's all I'm going to say. Right, Sarah, we'll see you this week for a Q&A. I will be back with the preview, and then the season is finished, but we'll talk about all of that in due course before we go into the Euros and everything like that. Do give us a like, share, and subscribe. If you did enjoy this episode of Garabody read on YouTube, thanks for your comments and interactions whilst watching this live. And if you're listening back on Spotify and Apple podcasts, follow us and leave us a review on that. It really helps us. Thanks for all the support as well. We've hit record numbers recently. So thank you, and we look forward to creating more in the next few months. I can't end it with a pun because I can't think of anything. I can't end it with a sing song because I can't think of anything. So Mark, Steve, you'll be pleased to know, contract is signed. You're still in next season. See you later. Thank you.

See you, Mark. Thank you.