Jackie, I can't hear you. Where are you?

I'm at the beach.

You're at the beach?

At the ocean.

Are you wearing plenty of ointment?

A lot of ointment. How are you?

I'm good. I had a medical question for you. Are Audi belly buttons preferred to innies because they need less key? I was talking to my dentist and when I pushed him on it, he says that yes.

What?

I know there's a shark.

What is that? A baby shark. Oh, my God. He's so cute. I'm going to send you a picture. Wait.

Baby shark.

Baby shark. Baby sharkstein. And this is heavyweight. Today's episode victor and Maite After the break, depending on how you look at it, the story of Victor and Maite is either a love story for the ages or not a love story at all. Since first meeting Victor, I've been trying to decide which it is.

When she gets into a room, it's like the sun enters, you know, everything is nice and warm.

Victor is a painter living in New York and he's describing Maite, the woman who first stole his heart 35 years ago.

The truth is, every time I see her, it's the most beautiful that I have seen her in my life.

Victor paints huge, spectacular canvases. There are common motifs like rotary phones, skulls, butterflies. But the thing that nearly every painting has in common, the thing Victor can't stop painting, is Maite. They first met at a party back home in Mexico 35 years ago. Maite was 18 and Victor was 19. All these years later and no detail has been forgotten.

She was wearing a white lace suit which was from her mother's. Like a 70s thing. From her mother.

How can you forget that?

Victor, shy by nature, said nothing to Maite at the party. But a couple months later, he ran into her at the university they both attended.

And I asked her if she could model and she said yes.

And that's how everything started.

He almost did not even talk that day.

This is Maite.

He just said, Please sit here. And then he started painting. The whole studio smelled of paint, of oil. I was so nervous that I could barely think. My hands were shaking. And I brought a book. I think it was Crime and Punishment. And I was pretending that I was reading, but I could not focus on the reading at all.

Victor already knew he was going to be an artist and had even begun to show his work in galleries. His drive made him seem older than his 19 years.

I felt that I was in the hair and the body of a child. And here's this guy who was enormous, enormous in what he was and believed and knew. I barely knew anything.

Sitting there, holding still, pretending to read. Dostoevsky maite was falling in love. After several hours, Victor stopped painting. He thanked Maite, told her she could go. But before she left, he showed her the canvas he'd been working on. As Maite recalls, it was almost blank.

And I was surprised that there was not much on it except for traces or something. But not as I had imagined.

I was too overwhelmed that this completely out of my league, beautiful, popular girl came. I couldn't do anything. It's just like but in the days after I made from memory 35 paintings.

After that first meeting, the two started dating. A couple years later they married and moved to New York where they had a daughter. Victor found success In New York. He was discovered by a famous art dealer and began showing in Europe, South America and Asia. He sold enough paintings to support his family. But as time went on, his relationship with Maite began to deteriorate.

My nature is very depressive and more introspective and isolated. So I never want to do anything. Never want to go to a picnic or hang with friends or go to roller skating, Central Park, that kind of thing. I couldn't. And she was the opposite. She was like, let's do everything, let's go out.

He was not very fond of me going out with friends. But he didn't want to go out with friends either. And that was like a pain in the ass. I think maybe he was always possessive. It's just that as we were growing older it felt more intense.

Everyone falls in love with her. Men and women, everyone. It's impossible not to. She's that kind of person. And I dealt with that for eleven years. And then I had to divorce.

You.

In 2003, Victor and Mite mutually decided that it was in their best interests to go their separate ways. But here's the thing. Even now, 20 years after their divorce, maite is still the face of his work. The hands, the neck, the lips scrolling through his portfolio. It's image after image of Maite. Maite reading, maite drinking, maite talking on the phone.

How many paintings would you say you have of her?

I made more than 4000, probably.

Was there ever a point after you guys had broken up where you made an effort to stop painting her?

Yes, of course.

When I've had girlfriends, the question always comes are you planning to paint her forever? And my answer is if you have a better idea, give me a better idea and I might change it. That's my answer.

And that's the only answer Victor offers. Which makes me feel like a kid who won't stop asking, but why? But why? Why his ex wife? Why Maite?

I don't really know. But I've done experiments. I've had other models, professional models I hire. And the result is not the same. Because when I am working on those, I am working on everything. That it's not her. I am just describing what it's not.

Is Maite your first love?

I don't know. I had other girlfriends that I thought that I loved. Et cetera. But not like this. No. So the answer might be guess.

Is she your only love or have you found love since?

I fell in love since, but something died. I don't want to be dramatic, but the innocence, I don't think it can be replicated.

Victor broke up with Maite as a husband and yet he can't break up with her as an artist. But can the two things be separated? To me, it seems impossible. But on this point, Victor is clear. He is an artist pursuing his inspiration, not a man pursuing a no.

No. I'm not trying to conquer her heart and to make her think that I love her. No. Absolutely, absolutely nothing at all.

So for you, it's not Pining?

No.

In my Latin American markets, this is like a full on telenovela where I have all ladies come to me crying, telling me that I will get her in the end. And everyone sees the art and uses it as a mirror to tell themselves a story.

I've been telling myself the very same story that boy wins girl, boy loses girl, and boy wins girl back by making thousands of paintings. Am I no different than the old ladies of the Latin American markets? Or do I see something about Victor that he himself does not? Eventually, Maite got remarried, started a new family, and Victor kept his distance, respecting the fact that Maite had moved on. He continued to paint her, though, using old photographs as a reference. But then Maite got divorced and I.

Asked her, Can I take some pictures? And she said yes.

Which is how Victor and Maite came up with an unusual arrangement. One that I've been trying to understand. One day each year, Maite goes to Victor's studio, just like she did when they were teenagers. And for this one day, she gives herself over to his art. She dons the costumes he chooses and holds the props he hands her. She sits still as he paints her face with makeup and allows herself to be posed in the exact ways Victor wishes. After a couple of hours, he pays her, as he would any model. Then Maite leaves and Victor spends the rest of the year painting her image. In the Greek myth of Persephone, persephone marries Hades, but is unhappy living in the underworld. So Hades agrees to release her to the world above if she promises to return to him once a year. Over time, however, Persephone falls in love with Hades. I can't help wondering if Victor carries a shred of Hades'hope in his heart too.

I'll read to you something that he said here in talking about you. I think the physical is not even her most attractive quality. I mean, of course she's super beautiful, but her personality is incredible, like a nuclear bomb of charisma. When she gets into a room, it's like the sun enters, everything is nice and warm.

Wow, that's I mean, that's very nice.

I.

I don't really know what to say. I worry about him. I worry about how, you know, his state of mind or heart. I want him to be fine and happy and find joy. What do you think? How do you see this?

I'm not sure how I see this. Maite doesn't think Victor is in love with her. But enough people have asked her to raise some doubts. It is not easy to differentiate where enjoyment ends. Curator Gonzalo Ortega writes of Victor's work and where an obsessive fixation begins. It's this kind of thing. It's people like me. Then make Maite question herself.

If someone says to me, looks like you're hurting him, then I would do things differently.

Having talked to Victor about it at length, I don't think Maite is hurting him. But seen from the outside, the arrangement is unconventional.

If I try to give it too much thought, I could go crazy. A little bit, yeah. So when I have doubts, it's important to know what Michaela thinks. And I feel that she can be my compass.

I think it really was, for me, normal that my dad painted my mom.

This is Victor and Maite's daughter, Michaela. She's 25, but was just five years old when her parents divorced.

I do remember one moment in high school, friend of mine asked me, oh, your dad still paints your mom? And I said, yeah, he does.

Yeah.

And my friend said, well, he's still in love with her then, right? He must still be in love with her. And I guess I did pause. I didn't really know what to say. And I think there was a moment of, is he could he be? Maybe I should ask him. And so I did. I asked him.

What did he say?

He said no.

Like any kid, Michaela likes to see her parents getting along. So when her mom asks her if she's okay with her modeling, she's always said yes. But like me, Michaela still has questions.

I'd be curious to learn more about my mom. What's going on through her mind, what she feels when she's doing it.

Talking to Maite, I got the impression that she might agree to help Victor out of a sense of responsibility or even worry. But is that enough to keep someone returning to their ex husband over and over, year after year? Now, along with my question about why Victor continues to paint Maite and only Maite, I have a new one. Why does Maite model?

Have you ever stopped to imagine what it would be like to be on the receiving end of such attention? Like what it's like for her?

Yes. I have thought how it must feel for her. And I have told her the date that you don't want me to do these things. I'll stop.

And she hasn't. She hasn't so far, no. Why do you think she comes to your studio?

I jonathan, I truly have no.

Hmm. I wonder. In a few weeks, Victor and Maite are planning their annual photo shoot in Victor's studio. Perhaps the only way to truly understand why Persephone returns to Hades is to follow her down to the underworld and see firsthand, after the break, Victor's studio. Victor.

Oh, hello. Hi.

Thanks for coming.

Wow, what a place.

On a warm Friday in May, I arrive at Victor's studio. A loft space with high ceilings and a concrete floor. Victor is dressed in black. Black leather leggings, black boots and thick black glasses. There are paintings and photos of Maite everywhere. On one shelf I notice a photo of 2ft raised on tiptoes.

Is that my taste feed?

Yeah. They're coming.

You can hear her voice. You can hear the footsteps.

Okay.

Can you distinguish her footsteps from other footsteps?

Oh, man.

As Maite's steps grow louder, victor turns to me suddenly.

Yes, I can.

Maite arrives in a T shirt, knee length black skirt and cowboy boots. She's objectively striking. She and Victor? Both are. It's the first time I've ever been with them together. And it's like they go together like Jack and Meg White or Ant Man and the Wasp. I watch them as they watch each other. But of course I cannot see what Victor is seeing. And I cannot feel what either of them is feeling. During the photo shoot, Victor poses Maite beside a Greco bust. He poses her against a stack of books. He poses her talking into an old fashioned rotary telephone. And with a handful of rubber super balls he poses her lying atop a keyboard that he bought especially for the shoot. He poses her looking soulfully into the eyes of a Cookie Monster hand puppet.

I should have bought some cookies.

In spite of the surreal edge to the props, the shoot is surprisingly casual and relaxed. It has the mood of two old friends out for coffee. Sometimes Victor gives Maite direction, but mostly he doesn't say anything.

She's a natural, as you can see. It's incredible.

I don't do anything.

Up until now, Maite has been reserved from the moment we met. Her body language betrayed someone who doesn't like attention. Yet as soon as the camera starts clicking, something happens. She comes alive. At one point, Victor compares Maite to Audrey Hepburn who he says is, quote, not as pretty, not even close, but.

In the same style.

Wow.

So excessive. Observing the day, one thing seems clear. In answer to Michaela's question about why her mother does it maybe it's for the simple reason she enjoys it.

I think we're done. Okay, I think we're done.

After about an hour, the photo shoot is over. Victor thanks Maite and insists on calling her a car. She's teaching a Spanish class this afternoon. She has a life to get back.

To, thank you very much.

Maite walks out, leaving me and Victor alone. Victor seems tired in that way. Introverts get after expending a lot of social energy. After watching the shoot, I'm still not sure what to think. I was hoping that seeing Victor and Maite together would answer all my questions, but it hasn't. I ask Victor how the shoot went, and he says he's pleased, but he says, I always want more. You know, I can't tell if he means more material or more time with Maite. Is he already counting the months until he can see her again?

This time, when Maite walked through the door, did you feel again that feeling of like she's more beautiful than the last time.

Multiplied by 100? I find with her that her beauty or her type of I don't know what to call it can be. Once she had a tooth extracted when.

We were married and the dentist brought.

It to me and it had a certain shape, and that shape was exactly the same type of beauty.

It's like the part contains the whole.

In micro and in macro.

Okay, let's take it a step further.

I mean, do you think you would be able if you replaced ten teeth.

For sure, different people, you would be able to identify her tooth?

I'll go further. If you put ten thyroid glands, I think I have a good chance of guessing why. Listen, I don't know, man.

I know this sounds like this is madness. It's crazy. I understand. I know if I present my portfolio in an institution, mental institution, they will welcome me. It's like, hey, do you belong here, man?

Victor has insisted since the moment we met that he is not in love with Maite. And I want to believe him, but when he starts talking about how he can pick her thyroid gland out of a lineup, I find it hard to if that's not love, albeit a love bordering on obsession, then what is it?

The force of your admiration doesn't seem like it's the right word of your.

I don't know, what do you think.

Is the right word? Is adoration not the right word?

No. It's because you're trying to avoid the L word, which is love, right?

Victor pauses.

I do feel love for her.

But as quickly as he admits it, he returns to the same old saw.

But to me, the only thing that matters is the final art product you're painting.

This time, though, after having spent the day with them, after seeing the way he looks at Maite, the way that he hangs on her every move, I push back.

But you ever feel like it flows backwards also? You know what I mean, that the artwork is also a means of having a relationship where your love is permissible.

Victor needs Maite to make art. But might Victor's art, in some ways be in service to spending time with Maite also?

Yeah. The answer is yes. Real love real love doesn't stop, right? It continues existing. It transforms itself. It moves in different ways.

So you're saying that this is real love?

Yeah.

For Victor, real love doesn't require wooing and rings and shared health insurance. Real love is simply delighting in the object of his affection. But Maite has a different idea of what real love is and what it isn't. I'm reminded of something she said the first time we spoke. She told me that even though Victor was always looking at her, she didn't feel seen.

It's easier to see someone from afar and idealize the person than to be in the everyday and just dealing with the juggling of life.

But he was with the everyday for many years.

It's not like he yes, but I.

Think that even then, I was kind of an hologram. It was like the ideal.

Maite has a point. Real love isn't about the ideal. It's hard work and requires seeing a person in their entirety, imperfections and all. But then Victor tells me a story from after their divorce that makes me think he sees more than perhaps Maite knows if he cannot exactly see her imperfections, he can at least see his own.

One day, I was going back home in an Uber in a taxi, and I saw her with her boyfriend and friends sitting outside a table in a restaurant or bar. And they were all, super know, having a great time.

Victor had spent the whole day in.

A studio doing, like, a very realistic depiction of her all day long. But there she is, sitting down with those guys, having a beer and talking about whatever and enjoying the day. And I thought I couldn't provide her with that happiness or that regular, normal, just enjoyment of life.

I couldn't.

That was my feeling as a husband.

You you.

Know what I'm thinking about in cave? Cave paintings, like, from 50,000 years ago. They were the people living in the cave went to hunt, like, for a bison or something. And there was always a dude who stayed behind to depict what happened. And sometimes I think that's my job. I don't go out and have experience, but I'm okay with it. I'm a different yeah, yeah, I'm a different thing.

In college, I didn't really know how to be alone without feeling lonely.

This is Victor and Maite's daughter, Michaela.

Again.

Every time I was alone, I felt like I was doing something wrong or know, I felt a little ashamed.

As it happens, Michaela is a social psychology doctoral student, and her work focuses on, of all things, the study of loneliness. A little bit. It feels like she's dedicated her life to trying to understand her dad.

There was a moment my sophomore year of college when I was feeling really alone and very lonely. And I called my dad and we talked for a while. And he told me something that has stuck with me to this day. He said, being alone does not mean being lonely. It really struck me.

And do you think your dad was talking about himself.

Yeah. I think of him as someone who really enjoys his solitude. Yeah. If he wanted to have a significant other, if he wanted to have a big group of friends, he totally could. He doesn't want to, and he knows that's a choice, so he's making a choice, which I think is hard for some people to understand.

Victor's alone, but not lonely. He's not with somebody, and yet he is, sort of finally, I think I understand. Victor couldn't handle being with Maite in her three dimensions, but with this arrangement, he only has to be with her in two. Victor can worship Maite as he did that first time he laid eyes on her as a teenager, and then he lets her leave. For Maite's part, she loves Victor, too, but she needed something more. So if Victor expresses his love by letting Maite go, Maitei expresses her love by allowing him, for one day at least, to keep her. It's Friday, and so before parting, I ask Victor what I always ask people on Fridays do you have weekend plans?

You know what? I don't. I don't have anything to do. All I do is come here and work.

You'll be here working?

Yeah.

Victor then tells me he's looking forward to the weekend, and I believe him.

Now that the furniture is returning to its goodwill home, now that the last month's rent is scheming with the damage deposit, take this moment to decide if we meant it. If we try what?

This episode of Heavyweight was produced by supervising producer Stevie Lane and me, Jonathan Goldstein, along with Phoebe Flanagan.

Our senior producer is Khalila Holt.

Production assistance by Mohini Mcgowker. Editorial guidance from Emily Condon. Special thanks to Lauren Silverman, Neil Drumming, nene O'Donnell, Anya Schultz, Jackie Cohen, and Jessica Bashir, who directed a short documentary about Victor's art called Heroin, which is where I first learned about Victor and Maite. Bobby Lord mixed the episode with original music by Christine Fellows, John K Sampson, Blue Dot Sessions, Michael Hurst and Bobby Lord. Additional music credits can be found on our website. Gimletmedia.com slash heavyweight. Our theme song is by the weaker thans courtesy of Epitaph records. Heavyweight is a Spotify original podcast. Follow us on Twitter at heavyweight on Instagram at heavyweight podcast, or email us at heavyweight@gimletmedia.com. You can also follow our show on Spotify and tap the bell to receive notifications when new episodes drop. We'll be back in two weeks time.

With a new episode, Sam.