Hello, and welcome to Talk the Thrones. We are back to talk about House of the Dragon, episode one, A Son for a Son. My name is Chris Ryan. I am your host here today, Joanna Robinson, senior Ringer staff writer, and the worst babysitter in all of King's Landing, it's Mallory Rubin. Guys, here we are. We are back. Before we get into the show, a little bit of admin. I just want to mention that on June 25th, the three of us will be doing a live show for Talk the Thrones.

Join us.

Be better. At the El Rey Theater in Los Angeles, go to the El Rey website or go to theringer. Com/events to get tickets. We would love to see you there.

Special guests.

Who knows? Maybe. Winged Beasts. Could they be arriving? Guys, I'm so excited to talk about this episode. Joanna. Yes. Did the end of this episode mark something of a throwing brand from the window moment for House of the Dragon?

Wait, what are you talking about? Did it happen? Yeah, well, this is a huge moment that a lot of book readers have been waiting for, for sure. And not to overstate it in terms of what's going to happen next, but this is how George puts it in the book, right? For both the Blacks and Greens, blood called to blood for vengeance.

Is this the-Very chill. Yeah. It's that light touch with the pros is what we go to them for.

Things about to get real personal.

Now, were you more taken back by the child murder in this episode or the sight of the wall and the North and the Stark?

We're home. We heard the words Winter is Coming uttered on a television program on our screens. The only thing that is better than being here with Joanna Robinson, first of her name, and Chris, the Magnanimus.

Oh, thanks.

Heading back up north, seeing a shocking, horrific conclusion to the episode. Did either of those things shock me quite as much as Chris and Cole abandoning the cap to stick his head into Allison's crotch instead? I don't know.

Less than three minutes.

We're already on to oral stress. Here we are. We're already here. People come here for a reason. Yes.

Why don't I break down the episode? Oh, my God.

The Chris Ryan recap.

This has been fact-checked and spell-checked by Mallory Rubin, so there will be no mistakes in this.

I refuse to accept any blame or culpability for Chris getting character names wrong.

Let's get into the episode breakdown. Is that the Stark family music I hear? We begin Season 2 with some classic Stark bars about being cold and doing your Katie as Jack Valerian, a. K. A.

Jusaris.jusaris.jusaris. Jusaris.

Continues his whistle stop tour through Westeros to garner support for his mom's claim to the throne, John McCain style. Just taking that bus. Interesting com. While chatting with Craig Stark at the top of the wall, Jack received-We're going with Craig Stark.

Yeah. Yeah. You and Craig are already on Craig Stark terms. That's nice.

One scene in. He receives news that his brother Lucerius has died, so maybe take it down a second. Yeah.

Okay. We're getting to a more somber headspace.

Okay. Luceres dies with a career record of zero wins and one loss in dragon fights against Amun, two of them in Targarian.

Is that bad? Well, I mean, it's a small sample size, so the advanced analytics guys need to pour over the data.

Back on Dragon Stone, Renice and Damon argue about load management for their Dragons and the best way to maintain their naval blockade currently choking King's Landing. Damon wants to toast a dragon and a kid, but Renees wants her winged vehicle to get some electrolytes. The important thing to know is that Damon says the name of the episode, and he is not going to let that go.

No. I heard Bernese, but I know he meant Rainies.

I said Renees, didn't I? Recoveries on the mind of many H. O. T. D. Characters, Reneera is wandering around in the morning, apparently, without any foaming cleanser. And Corlas is finally up and at him. I'm so happy for that guy, walking around the docks and giving thanks to a guy named Allan for pulling him out of the water.

It's Alan spelled exactly the way that you anticipated it would be?

Absolutely. It's the common spelling for Alan.

Very normal.

At King's Landing, Allison is getting head. Helena is having premonitions, and Aagon just wants to party all the time. It seems like life during wartime to me. During a small council meeting, we see some of the competing impulses of the Greens. Allison wants peace. Aagon wants to have fun, and Jujarris just wants to ride a Lannister, while Eamonn wants his blood, and Laris wants everyone to know he is the worst HR guy in history.

Great to see him back in the mix. You're wearing socks and shoes today?

Laris is wonderful. Double pair of socks. He's also got his eye on Otto Hightower's job. Now, if you're anything like me, you spent the last two years dying to know what happened to Misari.

Thought about her every second. Thought about her every second.

Sleepless Nights. Yeah. Damon naps the de Mois of Westeros as she tries to flee. I don't know why I'm laughing at my own jokes.

He presses her. That's how you know we're back.

Chris laughing at his own jokes. That's the classic CR move.

He presses her about weaknesses in the King's Landing security apparatus, which he will exploit in order to satisfy Reniera, who has moved on to the eighth stage of grief, pure vengeance. There are some funerals. There's some candle lighting. It's all very sweet. Then there is an excruciating 15-minute sequence of Damon hiring Hitman to get that son for a son.

Did you actually get the stopwatch out?

I did clock in. Mentally, yes.

Two dudes named Blood and Cheese. I met them at a Boston bar once.

Can you start calling us that? By the way, we've been meeting to ask.

Wait, but which is which?

I think I'm Cheese.

Yeah, Blood for me.

They're assigned to bring Damon the head.

I would never kick a dog. Sorry. I don't want to be Cheese. I would never kick a dog. Continue.

Is that the worst thing that happens in this episode? Yes, it's the worst thing that happens in this episode.

It's slightly worse crimes. They're supposed to get the head of Eamonn Targarian. What happens next is sad, gross, and an excellent use of sound effects, and we'll change the course of this show. They kill a son Just the wrong one. Executing Jujarras in front of his mother. Now they've gone and done it, and that is the recap.

There's only one you. There are a lot of people competing for the Iron Throne, but there's only one us, Ryan. I want to start Big Picture. Chris the Dragonheart.

Thank you so much. Your support means everything. I want to start Big Picture. Just for TV viewers, did this episode feel different? Because obviously it picks up pretty much right at the end of Season 1, action-wise. But did you feel any differences in the storytelling?

Well, I'm going to speak in the parlance of The Watch, a podcast that you do co-host. There's big changes behind the scenes at House of the Dragon because Miguel Sopocznik, who was for the director, producer for season one, is out. Alan Taylor is in, and Alan Taylor directed your favorite movie, Terminator: Genesis. It is.

It holds the whole thing together.

But he's also... I mean, he directed Baylor, one of the great Game of Thrones episode where Ned Stark lost his head. Spoilers for Game of Thrones Season One. A lot of decapitation in this. And also, really recently, the interview with a vampire pilot, which is one of the best episodes of television. Oh, great boy. He did that. Yeah, so good. Alan Taylor is back. He's very well-versed in Game of Thrones, and something that I noticed was, especially in the small council scene, there's that vignetting that you get from anamorfic lenses that have been really popular in television. They didn't really use those in season one. We're getting those blur. If you were like, Is there something wrong with my TV? No, that's intentional. Yeah, Shogun did that a little bit, too. A lot of Shogun vignetting. What about you, Mel?

I've got a quick triple header for you here. Three things. One, new opening credits, right? We've got a remark on the new opening credits. We will probably go frame by frame.

Which I learned when you said new opening credits.

Thread by thread. Thread by thread on our house of our Deep Dive on Tuesday.

So stay tuned for that. The hand turns loom, dragons of flesh weaving, dragons of Thread, Helena prophecy was one of the very intriguing lines of season one, and to lean into that imagery for the new credits while also giving us this literal tapestry of Targarian history. What are the Harbangers? Portents and signs, signs and portents. That was really cool to see.

The blood's still here. It's just not working CGI, unintelligible blood.

Then just widening the map, right? When we think of opening credits, we think of the map in the original Game of Thrones series. And you mentioned the north already. We're not just going to in Kings Landing, Dragon Stone, and DriftMark this season. We're going to be out in more seats with more houses.

They talk about all those different places.

Otto's got a whiteboard on him. Exactly. They're sketching out all of these different characters who are going to come into the mix and the places we're going to go. So that's exciting for people. And relatedly, you mentioned already, Chris, we pick up right where season 1 left off. Yeah. We can never stop mentioning how many years season 1 covered. We move through, in essence, three decades of canon in 10 episodes of television. To pick up, we get that she's been gone for days line from Damon about Reniera. I think that will just be orienting and mooring and very refreshing for viewers to know that we're like, all right, we're going day by day, week by week here, not like, Oh, my God, there was a 10-year jump between episodes. That's very welcome.

I noticed the pace. It just felt like scenes were anecdotally, like I would have stopwatch. Felt like they were moving through.

Until we have a child.

I thought you said you had a stopwatch.

Well, the child murder.

You're like, what's quicker? Carvin through a six-year-old's head I'm going to carbon my Thanksgiving turkey.

Wow. That's not a hobby of mine. Anyway, I thought it just felt like we were already moving. The major criticism I think people had of the first season was that while really effective and important to building character and understanding this viseros and this father figure that looms over this whole thing, that it felt like you started the show twice, and now it really feels like we are rocking and rolling. Mel, I want to start a little bit with the wall that you brought up. Speaking of a swift pace, It just zooms through the north. Why did we start there? Is that a breadcrumb for fans, or is that an essential part of the story you think?

All of the above. I think there are actually a lot of things to hit here, given how relatively compact and succinct of a scene this was. I think that we probably had, for book readers, a shared sensation of absolute euphoria, and then, Oh, wow, Jace left the north quickly. That was zippy. But if you Remember back in season one, we open with the prolog in the Great Council, and then we get this card, setting the stage for us, and then it morphs into 172 years since Daenerus. It's like, Right, this makes sense. You're hooking it directly to a tether that is familiar to people from Game of Thrones. There's that here, too. I know you have thoughts on what that did to you emotionally, spiritually, mentally, philosophically, all of it. I'll let Joe talk about that part. I was, of course, elated because the North is just... I mean, Game of Thrones fans love it, right? That was a thrill.

What went through your body when you heard this dark theme that opens?

I was quivering like a raven flying on that late summer wind.

Then every time you heard duty in the Northern United States.

Fantastic. I mean, everything about this was just bliss for Thrones fans. We have a lot to cover inside of the scene.

I want to ask two follow-ups, and I understand that you guys are going to probably get really deep into this for the-We'll be going beat by beat, word by word. Yeah, right.

Ooth by oath.

This is maybe a basic question, but who is in the elevator?

Yeah, this is your guy, Craig. Craig. Yeah. You know him. You're guy Jack and your guy, Craig. This is Jace, Reniera's eldest son, and he is there with Craig and Stark, who Chris will be calling Craig. He is the Wolf of the North. He's the Lord of Winterfell.

Is that what you want to be called? Or blood and cheese, are you the Wolf of the North, Chris?

Wolf of the Mid-Atlantic, yeah.

If you remember at the end of season one when Luke ventured off on his ill-fated trip to Storm's End, RIP, tough one still. We're all in Mourning, and Jace was going to the Erie and to Winterfell. In the book, he also hits White Harbor. He visits the Manderleys. One of the things that really struck me in this scene is that we see that Jace is good at this, which I think is important. Runeera was like, remember the season one finale, You're just two bros, two young dudes. Hit it off. You'll have better luck than I would. You see how Jace knows how to navigate a circumstance like this, diplomacy, friendship, et cetera. The pact of ice and fire.

Amazing to see that, though.

I've got gray beards I can send you.

That's true. But what we will say is that book fans were hoping this would be a longer sequence. In the book, they drink together, hunt together, train together. They were boys together. They swore an oath of brotherhood together. And then this, they took an elevator ride together.

And then he gets an email.

You ride the winch in the wall, though. You're good for life.

Okay, briefly, what do I need to know about the Torin Stark and the Conqueror history stuff that gets mentioned? Because as a casual viewer, I'm watching that and I'm like, I feel like this is important, but I don't know why.

I mean, it's a big moment for book readers, too.

Yeah. Torin is known as the King Who Nelt. Yeah.

Because-the title you want.

I mean, the thing that I've always liked about the King Who Nelt, and this was actually at the trident in the books, this is during the Conquest, Agan's Conquest. I think that's the big, to me, takeaway of this entire sequence is linking it to the Conquest, which links it to Egan's Dream, the Song of Ice and Fire that Vissara shares with Reniera in the first season. We learn in the season finale by... Yes, stop naming all of your kids Egan. That would be That's the one note. A helpful note that we could pass along to the Targarians, but it's a little late for that. Of course, when we hear a character anywhere on Thrones, but certainly in the north talk about duty, we think of John, the Song of Ice and Fire, Incarnate. We think of Mr. Eamonn, up at the Night's Watch. Love is the Death of duty, a line we love to return to in reference in Thrones. So duty is a key touch point for Thrones fans. But for Jace, he walks up to the top of the wall. He hears Craig and Stark say, Jiharras and Alistair, their dragons would not fly beyond it.

The oath that I have to the north to the... The north has an oath that is older and more important than anything we owe to the seven Kingdoms. We have not seen Jace receive this information from Renier.

He doesn't know the prophecy.

We will remind people that this is a show invention. This is not in the books at all. But our assumption is that as Renier is heir, Jace will receive this information from her at some point. To me, the main takeaway was like, what will this trip mean for him now that he's been up there? And not to- And heard about death marching on the wall? What's beyond there?

Looking out and being like, oh, it's just savages. It's just weather. We didn't build this for savages. The other Toran was the last king of the north until Robstar comes along. Okay, great. The last king. And then he's like, Never mind, let's unite the kingdom. And the implication here is that they did it because Eagon told them about the prophecy of Icen Friar. And That's a big thing for book readers. Well, Mollet and I dig way into that, but that's something that even book readers didn't quite know.

Okay, that's good. So let's take that book reader framework. And I do want to ask about the final scene in the episode, which is obviously this drawn-out murder of Jehara's. In my casual scholarship here, it turns out they actually soft-pedaled it in the show versus the way it is in the book. It's much more violent, sexually violent, and grotesque ask, right?

Yeah. So Allison is there. In the books. In the books, Allison is there. They tie her up. There's another child there, a two-year-old there. This is the big one for me, Maylore. Maylore, the two-year-old's there. They do threaten sexual to the six-year-old girl that's there. But the big difference is that Helena... In this one, they're like, Which one is the boy? Which, as they say in the episode, they could have figured out themselves. That's just like- Tough for first episode back. But It's. Even Game of Thrones has a limit. Even Game of Thrones has a limit. But in the book, they have Helena pick which of her two boys, the two-year-old or the six-year-old, she wants them to kill. Helena's choice, as it were. Exactly. Meryl Streep wishes. Then they They pick the opposite, further traumatizing her if she weren't already completely traumatizing. They did broadly soften this. I know.

I feel like it's going to really make us sound like sociopaths to say, blood and cheese, wildly scintillating and horrifying television, but.

They have a point.

Relatively speaking, I think that... I think Helena in the book picking Mailer. Yes. And then she's saying, You hear that little boy, your mama wants you dead and then kill you, Jared.

Mailer's two. He's not going to remember it.

Oh, man. I mean, it's all so harrowing. I think on the one hand, there's a level of processing this in real-time where you're like, this is just the most horrific thing imaginable, which it is. I think that we should talk about what this is going to mean for the story moving forward and what kinslaying means in this world. Because something that we talk about a lot is a recurring through line in Westeros in the text, no man is as accursed the kinslayer. This is a response. A son for a son is a response, of course, to an act of kinslaying. But aiming to the kinslayer, this becomes a stain that you can't shake off.

But the other, the major key difference, and this helps soften potentially Damon's character, is that the original instruction from Damon in the show is, go get Amand. He's the one who killed-He's also like, he's the one with one eye. You can't miss him.

You can't miss him. They all have the same hair cut.

He's got a flat-eye routine. You'll know him when you see him.

It's impossible to get good help anymore. Maybe he has to do it himself.

But in the book, it seems like the toddlers were always the aim. Then they did this thing that they did in season one that I actually really love, which is when blood and cheese are like, Okay, and what's plan B if we can't find the leg of loss with the eye patch? And then they just cut off, and we can all at home decide whether or not Damon said, Find a toddler, find the nearest toddler. But they cut it off the same way they did in season one.

It reminded me exactly.

Air for a Day.

Which I know is one of your favorite things to nude along with Damon's character. When Vesperius is like, Did you say this? Did you toast my dead child by saying, An Air for a Day? And that just felt so intentional on the show as part to pull away so that we have to fill in that space in our minds. My assumption is that most House of the Dragon fans will say, Damon either said something very specific like that or said, Kill any son you can. Find a boss. Make sure you get someone. It seems very unlikely that he would have said, If you can't find Amand, head right back out the passages of Try Again Tomorrow. That just doesn't seem likely. Correct. But I think it is impossible. Obviously, he's doing this in response to Reniera returning. He's standing at the pain to table and saying, Eamond, I want Amand. This is not what Reniera wanted. There's just no way that this is what Reniera wanted. Look at how she is in warning for her own child. We have to remember, Helena is Reniera's half sister. This is just a horrific, horrific thing, and Reniera is grieving her own son.

To take away a son in this capacity, Daman, you just got to be more precise with the instructions.

Okay, so it's don't name all your children to Egon. If you're going to hire two would be assassins. Just be very specific about which blonde they're allowed to kill.

Let's talk a little bit about some stuff outside of this last scene, right? Joe. It was very cool to be back in this world. Who was the character that leapt off the screen for you and why was it Eagon?

I would really appreciate if you could use his correct title, which is Eagon the Dragon, Cock, the Untamable Beast. That would be my preference.

He's got away with branding.

No one knows what magnanimus means. It was very amazing.

What about shrugging and saying cunt in the small council meeting? That also was great.

That was my favorite. Him flopping out.

Tom Glencarny is doing so much good work for Eagon in this episode. Rewatching the end of last season, he only got a couple of episodes to make an impression. Even then, he was quite fun when he's fighting Eamonn in the street and he bites him. When he and Allison, he gives Alicent his version of, I don't want it. I don't want to be king on the way to being crowned. The fact that he didn't want it, she gives him this speech about, Your father loved you. He left you this dagger. He wanted you to do it. We see Eagon actually trying to be king, less so in the small council meeting when he's distracted by the small ball.distracted by Jeharras.

When he gets out in front of the audience, he's like, let's get these smithies paid, man.

Let's get you your goats.

Happy to give you your sheep back. You're worried about your salt. Happy to let you know that my battle intention is to burn the blockade, so you needn't worry.

But like, Aagon sitting, the other quote that we love to talk about from... Well, we love to talk about many quotes from this book, but this idea that Aagon had all of the official pieces office. He has the Crown, he has the throne. He was sworn in the dragon pit, all of that. To see him just splayed on the throne, this very important seat of power that Reniera will kill many people to try to get. He's just getting drunk with his mates. He's just a bro being a guy with his-The Zen shortage hit hard.

Those guys are just laid out.

I thought that was really notable, too, the way that his relationship to rule has evolved because so much of it came from... Now, we saw Egan do horrific things in the first season, but there was this real aura of insecurity. My father had-It's still here. Oh, yeah. But my father had his whole life to change his mind, and he didn't. You're telling me this, and it is fascinating that one of the people who is most reluctant to believe that in season one is the person who it directly impacts the most. To see him take the petitions, to see him decide when he needs to heat Aldo's counsel or push back and say, This is the thing I'm going to do, how is he interacting in a little side chat with Laris? When can he sniff out when somebody is manipulating him, is seeking to work their own agenda or actually giving him counsel that would benefit him? I thought, I mean, obviously, our time with Jujarris is brief, right? But his desire to bring him to the small council.

But that's the only thing. I will just say, I think Tom Glincarty is amazing. His charisma and performance- Are you making a case for Egan as a dad?

No. In terms of how he's thinking about rule, he's like, I got to teach him to be prepared for this.

They had very little time to be like, Actually, Egan cares about his kids, which is something that they forgot to establish in season one.

But I don't think-I would counter that.

Egan actually cares about one kid.

Yes, because he goes over and he sees Jahera and he's like, Oh, you're not that one. I have nothing to say to you, and I have no interest in engaging. He just wants his son because he's going to be the heir. So he's thinking about what his legacy as a ruler would be, which was just not a part of his... He literally says to Amen in the first season, I'm not suited for it.

You mentioned the person who jumped off the screen for me, actually, who was my favorite Foot Locker employee, Laris. I love the fact that he is consolidating soft power. So he's basically replaced the support staff for Allison in the palace.

With all of his people.

All of his people.

Were you ready to say goodbye to Talia in this session?

I know. Should we do 10 minutes of silence on this show for that?

And then move into the Messaria's next.

Can you do a little impromptu in memoriam, Talia?

Did you get bagpipes out? So, yeah, he basically replaces Allison's support staff with his own spies, ostensibly. I have a question about that scene with her in the bathtub, by the way, but I'll get back to that. I'm excited. She just only washes one body part.

I don't think she's going to stop there. I think that what they're trying to-For Kristen's sake, I hope that's not true. Yeah, exactly. Oh, wow. I think that-Oh, my gosh. What's happening with Laris there is that he indicates to Allison that he definitely knows that she was with Kristen Cole when he tried to see her.

I came by before the small council to check in.

Yeah. And So and he was like, I've got all my people watching you. So she's in the bath, she's completely exposed, and she's surrounded by Laris' people, Laris who makes her show him her feet. And she's just like, Get out of here. And she feels so violated and watched and filthy about that, that she just obsessively scrubs one shoulder. But I think she does that the entire rest of her.

I don't want Laris' people spying on me while I bathe is obviously part of the text, but it also made me think of in season when Viseras and his increasingly gaping and festering sores is being cleansed by the staff.

You love a soar.

I love a festering soar in my television program. He dismisses that, and Allison takes over. The show is really deft at little things like that where characters leave us and people grow apart and they make new alliances and new relationships and they have new agendas. But those little things can port you back over years and years of canon to a moment when a much younger Allison, who was in a situation she didn't want to be in and was working her way through, still had that. What was that relationship like? It makes you think of that and then what stemmed from it. Because Allison's relationship with all of these characters, it's like in some ways that and obviously her relationship with Ramiera, but all of the other relationships that they then forge with the people around them, that's the skeleton of the show. Everything else is stuck on top of that.

But very crucially here, the fact that she is very done with Laris It's very apparently. She is no longer getting her sexual-It's getting increasingly difficult to schedule you. Right. And so that's why he latches on to Egon. At the end of last season, Laris is always doing this. He's like, Who can I ally with? Can I possibly ally with everyone? At the end of last season, Otto is like, Hey, I noticed you spent a lot of time with my daughter, maybe looking at her feet or something like that.

There's no reason those hours cannot in the end benefit you. One episode later with Laris because they're not in episode 10, he's like, Fuck, Otto.

Yeah, exactly. He's the one who brought Otto back to be Hand of the King. So he's just like, That is Laris's survival mode. It's just like, Who can I latch onto? Who can I whisper to? And and promise them that I will boost their power? And so now he's latched on to Egon for now.

And then to Otto's credit, or at least in an interesting piece of parallel story, it's like Otto going to Amand and being like, We're going to get your blood, but we're going to do it at my pace.

One thing on the Laris front, though, that I do feel compelled to note, because obviously, he's like, Hardcore Littlefinger coded, right? And we have the always keep your foes confused Littlefinger ideology in our minds. The bulk of our exposure to Laris and the way that he works and manipulates people and how ready he... We should not forget that in episode 6 of season 1, Laris kills his own father and brother. It just sits down with Allison and is like, This was what you wanted, right? Let me know if you needed anything else before business hours conclude. I'm curious to see how Allison responds to this because you're right. There's a palpable visceral change. It's apparent to her that he's like, Something's different. I'm on to you. What will he do when he finds out about her relationship with Kristen? But what will she do knowing that he is watching her? That's something that she should clock, I think. I'm curious to see if that happens.

Now, the two people who know about her and Kristen are Helena, presumably.

I think Otto knows. Otto. When she walks into the small council chamber with Kristen, Otto gives them a look, and I'm like, I think Otto knows. He might have perhaps smelt something. Can I say that on the Amand front, my actual favorite line in this episode is, as you recall, you may or may not recall, season one ends with Amand and his dragon chomping a Child, the smaller dragon. The Caprice of Youth is how Otto Sun said, Oh, the Caprice of Youth. Yes. Don't worry about it. It's the Caprice of Youth. But there is... What is the line that you love to quote most that Otto says about Amand?

That rogue Amand? Have you heard of him? I have heard of him. Worth a thousand times the price he paid. That's how Otto sums up.

Winning Végar to our side.Winning Vágar to our side.In Drift, the Drift market.He has to handle and pander a bit to Amand because Eamonn has the biggest dragon.

There was a lot of attention drawn to that, too. Not just like, Vágar, but even like, Damon, when he's setting up blood and cheese, it's like, yeah, if you find them, he's a pretty formidable fighter. Eagon's like, he's my best source. Because Allison is like, why are you here, Eamonn? Why did you come to the small council meeting? You don't have a seat at this table. You're not welcome. The conversation between Allison and Otto about how Otto is cutting out her knees with the boys was so fascinating because there's this, how are they all talking? All of them. Egan, Allison, Otto, about Eman, about what he represents. We see Eamonn and Kristen like plotting in secret, and Otto comes in and is like, I really need you to check in with me as Hand of the King. But Allison going to her father and saying, Egan will not feel aware of. She still listens to me. We'll get sick of this, and then we'll be able to steer this how we want. She is now doing what her father used to do to her. She's thinking about her own children as just ponds on a chess board.

They're also all playing the blame game, specifically at that small council meeting, but just throughout the episode. They'll just give each other a little bit of looks.

There's no time for amusement, Thailand.

Mistakes were made in the final hours of Viseras's life. This happened. They all have a way to blame each other.

They're very eyes forward, guys. Let's not dwell on the past. Exactly. The flip side of this is the the Blacks, where we don't get as much palace intrigue as we do with the Greens, but we get a little, and we obviously see... I was intrigued by the fact that the two people closest to Reniera are Damon and Renice, both of whom at various points in their life thought that they might rule the land. That obviously is going to inform. They're not long term politicians or operators the way Laris and Otto are on the margins, and accrue power by moving people around. These two people, both ride Dragons, both have an incredible amount of power.

That armor?

Yeah. They are essentially the Air Force of the realm. At any given point, they're basically like, Oh, we could just go over there and light that place up if we wanted to. Now, they're maybe underestimating Damon and Vegar. No, Damon and Vagar. But at the same time, I thought it was cool the way they propped up both the two of them, their relationship, and their The way that they interacted with Renier. Renies was more like, You got to understand, I lost a kid. She's going to be in Mournington.

Who was that kid, though? Damon's wife. I think we can't-And Lanor.

Yeah, and Lanor. She pushes the Lanor button, too.

I think that was impossible not to think about in that exchange. I think we cannot forget because on the one hand, it's interesting to me to hear you frame Damon as Renier as closest ally, sure. Renies, I would describe as an incredible incredibly reluctant ally for Reniera. Dating back to episode 2 of season 1 when she gives her, she thinks she's there to provide counsel, and Reniera receives it as the lecture of that is the way of things.

But I think she's come... I think the end of season 1, she's come around.

She's the last one to bow.

But I think now she's in because she's very pro-Reniera in this episode, and Reniera is so significant in her absence in this episode, and she's like, Let's not do anything until Reniera is here.

So that's the thing got her was that Reniera seemed to be the one in the season one finale who was cautioning restraint. And so she evokes that here when she's talking to Damon about the more vengeful path that other characters would take. It's a good thing that Rhaneera is not here to act in hast like you would. But the history between all of those characters is so deeply fraught. Rhaneera blames Damon for her daughter dying, period. Renice blames Damon and Rhaneera for her son dying. That was the other thing that was so fascinating to think back on now through the perspective of what happens in this episode is back in episode 7 in season 1, Damon and Reniera are courting that response from people. We had so many questions about that at the time. Wait, you need the Valerians as your fleet and your allies. Is it worth the collateral damage of them thinking that you were directly involved in their son's murder? But one of the things that Damon and Reniera say to each other is they'll fear what we are capable of, they being the realm at large, not specifically. Corlus and Renies were the collateral damage of that strategy.

Think about that now through the lens of blood and cheese. How quickly is that group going to move, the team Black, going to move from, We want them to wonder what we're capable of to like, Oh, fuck. It's probably not a good thing if people think you're capable of this, of sawing off a toddler's head. Maybe not.

Maybe not the move.

Okay, so we've covered Otto and Laris. We've covered Damon and Reniera. Remarkably, this episode hinges on the return and performance of a character who I think was, generally, I would say somewhat ridiculed or somewhat criticized last season, this Messaria. I actually was pretty into this appearance and the plot line of like-I think a huge improvement.

Doing the reverse little finger. The accent is getting increasingly moderated instead of increasingly extreme.

I was thinking about it, and this is what it is. Almost all the characters in this show are prisoners of whatever faction they're a part of. Within that prison have become fanatical about like, this is the only way that this can be fought. We're going to be on these two separate points and we're going to collide. Masara is just like, I'm just trying to get out of here.

I'm no longer in your thrall. Go scheme with someone else.

I have one for Damon to hear.

My occupation is gossip. My whole thing is people being in my thrall. Are you sure about that? Have you seen my new armor?

But I loved her privatism and I loved her cynicism. I loved her just being like, I was obviously playing both of you against the middle. That is literally my job description. What did you guys think of this appearance and specifically the scene between her, the scenes between her and Damon?

Not the scenes between her and Eric, your favorite cargo driver?

I thought that was fine. Yeah, that was cool. He stuck up for her.

We got Eric and Eric in this episode. Who could ask for anything more?

Yeah, but the Eric stretch was traumatizing because he was by a scorpion. Anytime you see a scorpion now in the wider Thor's universe, you just think of Yuron and bigger Crospo and Regal, and it's like PTSD. Because he's like, Look, oh, no, dragon. It took him a while the clock that that was being our easily the biggest Swiss cheese wings.

Yeah, exactly. Don't worry, it's got a lot of holes in it. But Messaria. Yeah, Messaria. No, I really loved this. I loved the discovery of her. I loved her like, weariness. It is the opposite of Lara. She is an equal master of whisper. She is equally connected. She does hook him up with a rat catcher that he needs and all of that. But she's just not enjoying the game the way that most people who are playing the game are enjoying the game. I guess a similar-ish comp would be Varus because Varus loved the game, but towards the end on Game of Thrones, Varus is just like, What on Earth can I do to protect the realm? And hers is just like, What on Earth can I do to get out of here? I just don't want to be here anymore. I really like that different energy.

She also like, Damon doesn't really have the power over her because she's just like, Kill me, do whatever.

I mean, think of the first time we see them together in season one. They're fucking in a brothel as people watch them through basically these exact-Oh, I remember.screens that we have here. And then he's like, Can't get Yeah, I got to cloak myself.

That's where we got the cup.

So it's a totally, just like an utterly different dynamic. And there is actually a steady evolution because there's the midseason stretch where he's after he takes the Bowels of the Pleasuredent, an iconic moment in House of the Dragon history. He's passed out on her floor, and she's just basically like, I'm not in your thrall thing starts there, really. This is just a more overt stating of it. The Varus comp is an interesting It's an interesting one because if we think back to the Dragon Stone sequence when Damon is using her as a chip to fuck around with your service. I'm going to marry her and have a kid with her. I stole an egg. We're going to have a family, and she's like, What is happening here? I'm The reason that I want to be a part of your life is for protection, and you're actively putting me in harm's way and using me as a tool in your fucked up warped game. When she made her move with Otto in the penultimate episode of Season 1 and did the whole, remember, it was me who put him there about Egan, but also made her pitch for protecting the small folk.

I will just say, I think we all in real-time thought it was one of the weaker moments of the season. This didn't feel that way. This brings you into that headspace where she's like, This was my life before. These are the horrors that I worked through. These are the people in power who have used me for ill, and I tried to make that work for me, and now I'm done with it. But what actually happens here, like you said, she does actually give him actionable intel. That was interesting, too, because Damon does have knowledge of the-And connection.of the passageways and connections. He's the commander in the Goldcloaks. That's why he's greeted by blood like, Hey, Commander, what's up? Yeah. I was wondering how he was pretty durable guy. Damon, back in his signature murder cloak.

One of the stuff. Blood, by the way, in the book, has already been drummed out of the service. The Goldcloaks in the show.

He's got a little bit of a rap sheet there. But Damon left for Niera in season one, the little map of here's how you sneak out and make your way through a mega or secret tunnels to go out on the town for a night with your uncle who's going to become your husband. But I see that Messario might be a connection to a rat catcher.

I'm not sure that Damon would know a rat.

That's what I like about it, is the fact that we know he actually is in possession of some of that information but still had to seek out something he knows she possesses that he does not, that is a level of equilibrium in their relationship that was just missing previously.

The last thing I want to say on the Messaria front, I know you want to stay here with Messaria forever, but this is the last thing I have to say about this. Mel mentioned when we meet her in Season 1, Episode 1, I did go back and I'm just thinking about that scene. Thinking about passage of time on the show and characters who have been with us from the beginning. Sure, Matt Smith has had different wigs. He got a haircut, blah, blah, blah. But he looks pretty much the same. Matt Smith, yeah. Matt Smith himself. But Damon got a haircut, growed his hair, etc. But he looks pretty much the same as he did when we first met him. Seeing Messaria just weary and bedraggled compared to crisp. I was just like, oh, my God.

She looked like somebody who was living on a boat.

She was hanging out, but she was so much younger when we first met her.

Decades ago.

Do you want us to... We're We're going to call us Blood and Cheese. Do you want us to start calling you the White Worm?

Sure. No. You want to be the first one. Wolf of the North, I like for him.

Okay, let's just open up a little bit here because we've talked about a bunch of the different major plot points. I don't want to get too into what we think is going to happen and get into predictive nature of it, because for one thing, we haven't seen the scenes from next week yet, so there's a fool's errand somewhat. Also, because of the nature of these books, the completeness of the history, and while there might be some surprises along the way. I don't want to get too into, What do you think is going to happen with this guy? And you guys can just tell me. I'm more curious whether or not-Reliable narrator.

Sometimes we don't know.

Oh, yeah. There was a scene in this episode that you thought was maybe sneaky important, maybe more important than I would have thought. I was thinking about the Allen scene, which went on for quite a while, and I was like, Why? I don't know this guy. They seem to be having a tender moment of exchanging a scepter and gratitude with each other.

Dagger he had made for Luceris. Oh, his Dagger.

Okay.

It would be air in a drift mark.

It was a longer scene than you would get.

Yeah, we had time to watch them mop the blood off the deck of the...

That's right. Is that your favorite part?

Chipping the barnacles.

That's right.

I was like, That's a lot of barnacles. I like to see the detail of how they maintain the fleet.

No, but I just love that they're already on chipping particles when the front half of the ship is just completely wrecked.

I was like, maybe this is like, I need my ship out there so that I can be a part of leading the blockade. Alan's like, We sent seven more ships out earlier today. Can you chill?

But also, have you seen your ship?

It's demolished. So that seemed like a relatively important scene going forward.

Watch the space, I think, is what we're going to say about that.

A new character who was introduced.

Was there anything else from the episode that jumped out at you where you were like, Oh, how about that?

I have something for you.

Oh, sure.

We have Egon Small Council. He does not have a master of ships. They mention a name, Dalton Greyjoy. Okay. And I think it's okay for me to say this. Red Kraken. He's the Red Kraken. And I know how much you miss the crabfeeder. I do. Are you excited that there's a character called the Red Kraken?

He'll have to do. What was that? The trifecta? The Trioarchy. The Trioarchy. The Alliance. Yeah, I miss that weird subplot. It seems like this is going to be much more this side versus this side.

The Greyjoys. How do you feel about The Greyjoys possibly being back? This is a great take.

We got some stacks. The Trioarchy.

Yeah, the crabfeeder. He's taking back to the steps.

I thought it was cool.

I love that part. Yes, I'm excited for the Greyjoys to be coming back if that is indeed in play. There was one other thing. Oh, Helena's Premadition. Yeah. And her being like... I mean, that was actually one of my favorite little exchanges in the episode was like, I'm scared, and he's like, Of what? And she's like, Rats. And he just goes, The Queen remains enduring. Great line delivery.

But also right before that when he was like, Where is he? Come on.

Is Egon perceptive enough to have noticed that his wife called that?No.Wife/sister.Wife/sister.Let's.

Just not forget. That always bears mentioning wife/sister.

Is Egon perceptive enough to notice anything about Helena? I would say no. Definitely not.

I think we have ample evidence at this point because her season One, many dream dispatches included, he'll have to close an eye about Amen.

The beast beneath the boards.

The beast beneath the boards about Rhaenys in the dragon pit, and of course, the Dragons of Flesh weaving Dragons of Thread that we already discussed. So yeah, I don't think that we should expect Egan to clock this, though I am interested in more broadly beyond Egan, the family units awareness of Helena's abilities. That's the thing.

It would almost be good homework for the viewer to be like, Listen to what Helena says. Oh, yes.

Oh, everything she says. For sure. But just when we think about, again, what is the story about? What is the Dance of the Dragons? It's the Targarian War of Succession. It's a family civil war. All of these people, in theory, have a proximity, a closeness, and awareness. In season one, when we realized that Helena was a dreamer, we were so interested in thinking about discussing whether Viseris, her father and the king, who was obsessed with the idea of being a dreamer.

What is the power of a dragon next to the power of prophecy.

Had ever spoken to his own child about that even once.

I'm going to go with no. Probably not. A little busy with the dropping wind.

It didn't feel like the answer was yes. He's like, Half my face fell off. My hand's got to go back in the mellows magot bowl. I don't have time to talk to you about your prophecy.

I don't care all about that.

These divides and ruptures can stem from things like that. When Damon and Reniera have their absolutely harrowing fight in the season one finale, and he issues the line that we heard of the bizarre introduction to the whole series in the first Easter trailer for season one. Dreams didn't make us Kings. Dragons did. Damon has a resentment of that. For Viseras, it could have been a bridge with one of his children. But these people don't talk to each other.

But that's what's so key about the Greens. Then they're constantly contrasting that with the Blacks and how Ronira actually has a connection. We get the funeral, but when Jace comes in-Jace weeping her arms. And he's trying to give his dispatch and he's crying, and she just wraps him up in her arm. We should say, not a lot of Runeera in this episode, but Emma doing so much with their face. Fantastic. Just incredible stuff.

Yeah, great The inner cutting of Allison at the Septe and Reniera at the funeral, the tie, we think back to the sept in season one, Allison taking her there. It's only for you and the gods to know, explaining what it meant for her to be there and think back to her own mother and to her close to the people that she had lost. That's the first person she lights a candle for here. She lights one for Viseras. She lights one for Luke. The handing over of the paper on the Dragonstone Bridge.

She's also pressing on the small cancel. She's like, All right, let's get some new terms over to them.

Let's figure this out. Yeah, and it's not going well so far. Is she responding to me? Small council where you're saying, Sorry, your kid is dead. I am being like, About her dead kid?

She's leaving me on red or what's happening?

Yeah, the contrast, not only the of their friendship and their shared history. But then the contrast of how either the parallels of Aldo is trying to work you, Damon is trying to work you, they want to control you. But then the contrast of how they interact with their children was really stark.

Yeah. It's pronounced Stack.

I realized the one thing that I forgot to ask you guys about.

Kristen and Allison fucking up a storm?

Well, that was pretty cool. But in-I was going to say he's a complete hypocrite. The title of this show is House of Dragons. I haven't asked about Dragons.

Oh, I've got some thoughts.

We got two dragon disamounts in this episode.

A couple of dragon disamounts. This was a big one for me.

Is the amount of rest and relaxation that these dragons need in between flights going to become a thing where they're just-I think it's more the amount of also the amount of sheep that they need to eat.

Got to take a 10th of the sheep. Yeah.

I like how much-This is what we say to the crew.

We're like, We need a 10th of the snacks from out in the pit stop. We can gorge as soon as we finish recording.

You should go to Sweet Creams and just keep it level. He doesn't need to-No free ads. That's true. No free ads. It was cool to see the dragons. I thought that the Vágar scene where it was just like, Oh, shit. And then it was like, No, that's our good dragon. It was cool. Any dragon points you want me to know about?

Cyrax Mourning. Like with Reniera.

Man. I know I... I'm just going to be honest. I know that the substance of my emotional response should have been, Reniera has found the cloak of her dead child. But I was like, seeing Airex's wing, that was what really made me.

I was like, this is probably going to bum now out. But I was also more like, isn't it disturbing that these fishermen are like, oh, no, we're dead?

But yeah, I think we're going to respond it appropriately. We're going to get a lot more like how the small folk are affected by dragon warfare. How does that affect everyone on the ground? It's not just going to be about salt and sheep and iron, but it's going to be about that as well. But also, I just want to float this to you because as we know, in Fire and Blood, there's a bunch of different narrators, a bunch of different what-ifs for various characters.So I just want to ask youSliding doors moments. Yes, exactly. We love Gwyneth Paltrow. We wish you were here. Luke, do you like the theory that the prince survived the fall, swam to safety, lost his memory, and became a fisherman?

Oh, that's awesome. No.

No. Begar ate him in one bite.

I really love this theory, though.

One bite. Like a.

I want a future cameo for Luke just working the nets down at the shore in a future season.

It would be great if he just set up a small gambling book in a village somewhere. Carrying on Beesbury's legacy.

His body was never The Hound. He says it's because he's inside Vegar's intestines. I would say-In the history of Game of Thrones, with the exception of what was the mom, and then she comes back, but it wasn't the show.

Catlin. Catlin? Yeah.

Lady Stoneheart.

Is anyone ever actually alive when they're like, We didn't see Stannas get killed. It's like, yes, you did. The hound. That's right. Yeah.

Remember that episode? Vengeance.

By this logic, Jujarris could be alive.

He didn't have time to get on that horse.

We heard The word that happen.

There were still a couple other interesting quick little dragon things. We mentioned already the scorpion, right? When Hugh is making his petition to Egon about the cost of iron, it's to make scorpions. There's a prep level happening.

I like all that detail was so cool.

Amazing, yeah. Even the way Egon is, the way they all talk about their dragons because we had the Damon dragon math sequence of the season one finale. We have this many. They have this many, and Runear is like, Hit pause and chill. I love Amy. This episode was so heavy, not the first one, but so heavy on Amen, Damon parallels. They literally use the same language, toehold, to talk about why they need to get a seating the river. Riverlands, get it, Harrenhal. Hearing Damon say to her, Anis, You have to come with me. We need cracksies and malies. Let's head out together. I can't beat that hoary old bitch on my own. The way that they're thinking about each other, we see in Aymen's room a painting of Valarian's attack on hair and all. This obsession that Aymen and Daman share.

Is that the dragon mural you're hoping for?

I also have that in my room. No, I missed it.

You missed the Dragon Rage's tapestry.

It's on our mind always. That or Gwera. On our mind always.

That's just a starry night.

They're both second sons. They're these formidable foes who are revered by others for their prowess in battle. They're both Those cops are just always so interesting. Hearing them actually, hearing, again, Damon talk about Amand in this episode was really fascinating. Because in the show, we have heard Damon compared to Maegor the Cruel before. He would be another Maegor. And Maegor is mentioned in this episode, Maegor's Tunnel. Not sure if you've heard Chris, but cheese knows the shape of them better than his own cock.

That's a direct line for the book. Thank you, George.

Wonderful stuff to see that make it into the show.

Glad you got one more seating there.

Thank you. We're wrapped up today. One of the things that we got in the opening credits was Maegor impaled on the Iron Throne, a blade from the Throne through his neck, which is how he died. There's a lot of speculation like, what really happened? Another classic unreliable narrator bit of history. But Maegor's constantly, the show constantly, reminding us of Maegor and his history is just something that I love. Craig and mentioned Jaheras and Alacane and their Dragons not wanting to go beyond the wall, which we talked about. A little It's a bit of an update on Book Canon. Alacane is there writing letters to Jaheras about how her dragon, Silver Wing, didn't want to fly there. It troubled me then, and it troubles me still. In Fire and Blood, Viseras' last night is spent telling his grandkids about Juharris going up north to the wall. One of the things that we don't see here is Burmax, Jason's dragon, up in the north with him, but he hates it. In the book, it is clear that he hates it. One of the things that we did get to see in Game of Thrones, and it did not go well was what it's like for the Dragons Up North.

Solar Power, guys. Not sure if you guys have heard of the Song of Ice and Fire, but there's something there.

I'll leave it here. It's cool that we're in episode one of season two and the connective tissue is becoming so apparent, which I think for people who are more Game of Thrones TV fans, that was like, that's a nice thing when you're like, now the stuff that I watch is starting to payoff in a little bit more of a significant way.

Can I just say one thing that I think is really funny is that when people watch House of the Dragon and they're Game of Thrones fans, they're like, this is close to the show I love, but not quite the show I loved. And one of those things is that it looks different because it happened over 100 years ago. The style, the costumes are different, except for the Starks. They wear the exact same thing. Identical. Over 100 years ago.

Those guys have been wearing American work wear.

It's working. Just graded leather.

This was so much fun. We're going to be here every Sunday night right at the conclusion of House of the Dragons. You can join us here on the RingerVerse YouTube page. You can listen to us on the House of Our podcast feed on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. You can watch us on Spotify. You can watch us on Spotify. It's been awesome to hang out with you all. We'll talk to you next Sunday. Bye.