The Jedi are bad.

The Jedi are good. This isn't about good or bad. This is about power, and who is allowed to use it? You're a very powerful girl. Right now, you want to be a Jedi. But as you grow, what you want it changes, it shifts. Like the seasons. What's up, bad babies? And welcome to House of R on video. If you hadn't already heard, we're now doing House of R, Midnight Boys, and Talk the Thrones on the Ringerverse YouTube channel, in addition to wherever you get your podcast.

That's right.

So this is House of R. Welcome. I'm Joanna Robinson. Joining me today, She's the red moon to my blue moon. It's Mallory Rubin.

Joanna, what the thread has tied together, no one can separate.

Oh my gosh. What a beautiful.

I'm thrilled to be here with you in person today in a studio with cameras.

It's a whole new world for us. Yeah, we're going to be here all summer doing this in person. You're definitely not going to get sick of me. No, impossible. Our bond is just going to grow closer and closer.

It's still possible. Yes, that part's true.

Yeah. Because the thread tied us together. Since before, we have a podcast together. Okay, so Listen, we're doing Talk the Thrones, and that is very important and exciting for us. We're going to be doing it on video. There's a whole set involved. It's going to be amazing. So Talk the Thrones after House of the Dragon on Sunday, and that's really exciting. Can't wait. But also, but wait, there's more. Talk the Thrones live. Oh, man. Tuesday, June 25th at the L. R. A. Theater. Thrilling. Tickets are still available. Get them now. Joanna Robinson, Mallory Rubin, Christopher J. Ryan, I think. And some pals, some guests, some pals.

Hang out with us on the podcast or video platform, if you're choosing, on Sunday nights, right after the episodes, and then come hang out with us in person. In The L. R. A.

On Tuesday, June 25th. Thrilling. Who could ask for anything more? So that's it. Yeah. House of the Dragon, acolyte. That's what we're covering for the next couple of weeks. Over in the Midnight Boys, they're being a little bit of overachievers because doing House of the Dragon, Acolyte, and the Boys. So you're going to hear from them twice a week. You're going to hear from us three times a week. I guess we're all overachievers here at the Ringerverse. Also overachieving, mintedition is going to be doing Inside Out, too. If you want to get your Pixar takes in or out. Always. That is where you're going to find them over on mint edition. That's a program reminders. Yeah. Find us, again, on YouTube, the Ringerverse channel. Subscribe. Subscribe. What? Smash that Bell or something like that? I don't know. I'm new to YouTube. That's exactly what everyone says and how they say it. Smash that Bell. Okay, great. Do that. Molly Rubin.

Joanna Robinson.

How else can people find us.

Oh, thanks for asking. Yeah, you're welcome. After you smashed that bell. Yeah.

I got that right.

Yeah. You follow the pod on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast, subscribe to the YouTube channel, do all that stuff, and then find Find the Ringerverse on the social media platform of your choosing. We're everywhere, Jo.

You looked right down the camera just for Jomi for that moment. I love that for you.

We're everywhere. The Ringerverse is on Twitter, the Ringerverse is on Instagram, the Ringerverse is on TikTok. You can find video clips from these video podcasts that we're doing.

It's true.

You can find all sorts of updates, programming reminders, little glimpses of our wonderful in-person time together. Why would you not be following the Ringerverse on the social media platform if you're choosing? Then, of course, you have a thought that's maybe longer than a tweet. Oh, yeah. You send an email because the inbox is open, the inbox is active. Yes.

Hobbitsanddragons@gmail. Com. We're at the point in what the Midnight Boys are calling the Content Cornucopia.

I like Content Cornucopia. I like it.

I like Content Gauntlet because it rimes and it describes what we're going to be writing this summer. In the midst of the Content Gauntlet, I We had a ton of acolyte emails. As soon as the episode was over, people were firing off their hot takes. We're back in session. Hobbes and dragons at gmail. Com. Very exciting. Spoiler warning today.

Yes.

All of Star Wars?

All of Star Wars.

Movies, comic books.

Everything.

Animated shows.

Certainly episode 3 of The Ackolite. Certainly everything that's happened in The Ackolite today. But yeah, if it's ever happened in Star Wars, it's something that we might talk about today. We might. If it's a witchy thing, it's possible it could come up today.

Okay. You I love a witch? I do. Spice Creams?

Spice Creams. You might be talking about some vaginally inclined art.

Great. Love that you went there first.

That's an exciting thing to get into the intro.

Also, speaking of, I don't know about speaking of, but that's the transition I choose to use here. Benjamin Lindberg is going to be on the podcast today to do a Lore corner with us. It was an immaculate transition. I don't know what you're talking about. Ben's going to be here to talk to us about We're piping him in on the monitor. He's not going to be running in that door. He's going to be on the screen.

Yeah, he's on the monitor exactly where we all left him in the Ringerverse YouTube trailer. Right. Great stuff. Great bit from Ben and Arduna in that one.

Wonderful. Very good. Let's get into it, shall we?

I mean, I suppose we might as well.

Quick facts. We're here to talk about Aqelate episode 3, I can't stop. I damaged Mallory's brain by mentioning a couple of weeks ago that every time I hear the word acolyte, I think of the Dave Matthews band song, Satellite. I can't stop. And have been singing acolyte to the same tune, and now Mallory just responds to everything with that little tune in her mind. Okay, so we're here to talk about episode 3, Destiny. Yep. No duality in this episode title.

Yeah, I miss it.

Do you think that's because the twins are together in this episode, or do you think it's because we're only seeing this episode from one point of view?

Would you say a certain point of view?

I would say a certain point of view.

This is a podcast about Star Wars. Oh, yeah? Is that a one for Star Wars?

I didn't know. That's a good question.

I guess we'll probably find out for sure come episode four, whatever the titling is there. Maybe we'll give us the clarity of what titling parameter we're following. I I have some questions about whether we are only definitively in one point of view.

We are definitely not only definitively in one point of view. But maybe it's because they're together rather than... I think it's definitely a skewed point of view. For sure. But it is not a strict, clean...

This character's point of view.

I got very particular about that when I was going back through the episode. Okay, this episode was written by Jasmine Flournoy and Eileen Shim. Eileen Shim wrote episode 8 of Season 1 of House of the Dragon, an episode that we love. Have you heard of it, lots? And she will be on the upcoming Vision Quest show, so that's excited. And this was directed by the great Coconada, who directed the films, Columbus, and After Yang. After Yang stars Jody Turner-Smith as a Concerned Mother of a special child. Sound familiar? Sure does. Yeah, Coconada doing this. We were really excited preseason to hear that this director was going to be working this season of television, 44 minutes. A long-ish one compared to episode 2. Let's just do the opening snapshot. Let's do it. Let's do it.

All right, Mallory.

Quick overall thoughts about the episode. Thoughts about getting the flashback, episode so soon. You were asking about this when we talked last week. Did this satisfy you? Was it additive to what we already knew about May and Oshia's backstory?

I also asked last week if we might see a Jedi just steal a child's blood without asking it at some point.

You sure did. Sure enough, we were rewarded.

That was a thrill for me. I'm pretty mixed on this episode. It's the episode where in real-time, I can feel that I am unable properly assess whether it totally works for me until I see the entire season. I could see going back to this episode after we complete the eight episode, first season, and thinking that this was a brilliant way to expand not only the timeline, but the nature of the mystery and how we're navigating parsing the mystery in I found it to be emotionally compelling, thematically intriguing, and in other ways, a little bit odd. I'm still having some of the... I'm liking the show overall. I'm incredibly excited to keep watching, and overall, I'm enjoying the show. I love the chosen focus, the examination of the Jedi. The Jedi as gatekeeper, the etc. I'm genuinely really into that.

Child stealers, intergalactic cops.

The Jedi do not come off well in this episode, and I think that's fascinating.

This is what we're talking about when we cover the first two episodes, the proposition of the show was from a sith point of view. And so whether or not you would consider this strictly a sith point of view, we don't know where these witches align necessarily. But it's certainly not a pro-Jedi point of view.

No, absolutely not. I like that, and I like the show's ambition in that respect. I'm really excited to keep watching what the assessment of the jedi pursuits are and where the show comes down and where the characters who are either outside of that or a part of it end up coming down or what they might be complicit in. I think that's fascinating. In terms of your question about was this the right time for a flashback episode? That actually didn't really bother me. I, again, we'll see because part of what I leave this episode thinking is that maybe we get another flashback episode and that maybe it is not only another flashback episode, but maybe it in this exact same stretch of time. Perhaps we extend a little bit in either direction because I think we still need to understand what brought the Jedi to Brendock and then that particular permutation of being there. Then certainly what happened during the fire, which was a to the witches.

Quite a lot. When they all cry out and we very specifically don't see what happens. And they do not look burnt at all. So you're saying there's going to be more that we see there?

A lot of scrunched-up face response to that as you're watching in real-time trying to what's happening, which is, of course, by design. We're not supposed to leave this episode with a totally clear picture, either because of, to your point, whose perspective are we seeing this from, or because we just haven't actually seen what all of the characters are up to and those things are entwined. If we get another flashback and it feels like, okay, every couple of episodes, we're in the present day, and then we move back, and we have an increasingly full picture of what unfolded, and we're gaining that clarity in lockstep with the characters, I think that could actually be cool. It didn't feel too soon to me to do a flashback. I just to beat scene minute to minute. It just wasn't the strongest episode. There's something about the pace and the cadence and the way the characters are speaking that I'm still just acclimating to. I did think that Jody's performance was exceptional. Absolutely. Absolutely exquisite. I know you love a witch, so that was exciting. What did you think of the episode?

There were so many witches. They were.

They're cloaked. They're singing. You got an impromptu musical number.

There was a musical number. There were lesbian witches. Who could ask for any more? You sold. A beautiful forest, a poison tree.

The Poison Bunta tree was absolutely gorgeous.

I think this was a half of a great episode. I think all the Jody stuff works. I think every time she's talking, I'm mesmerized. I think the fact that there are a ton of witches here is really exciting for me. You love a witch. I think watching- You love an ocean vista, you love a witch. I love a flashback wig and flashback bangs, and we got so many of those. Everyone had bangs in the past, and that is great news for all of us. So All of that worked for me. I think the kids were a little tough for me. Star Wars, of course, has a grand tradition of... I don't love critiquing children in their performances. They're doing their best. But I feel like I think maybe one was a little bit more dialed in than the other. But I just think overall, these two kids and the fact that we watched them have a very similar conversation over and over and over again. I really felt like I got that dynamic from the first conversation, and then we had six other versions of it in the episode. That dragged for me. But I think you're right.

Perhaps if this were just episode three, I'm always pro week to week, but if this were in a binge, probably it would not stick out as much to me, but as it is, yeah, this is a mixed bag for me. But there's a lot to be had in terms of theorizing that is really exciting. A lot of possibility here. I definitely agree we're going to get more flashbacks We're going to fill in the gaps of what we didn't see in this episode. But as you alluded to, we're not strictly in Osha's POV because we get scenes without her in it. So how could she know what happened when she wasn't there? We're not 100% in Osha's, but we are mostly in Osha's point of view. So are we going to get what May saw or are we going to get what the Jedi saw?

That's the one that I feel is more essential. Oh, yes. And I'm excited when we get to the fire because the fire sequence is emblematic of the entire episode to me, where I was simultaneously like, This is… I'm thinking about questions. I'm looking at Torben's face in the background.

The wound is there.

When Soul is tending to OSHA after she wakes, and he's scarred.

It's freely bleeding. Something horrible is happening.

You already mentioned, Wait, so there's a and are shaking, and then all the witches are dead. How did the fire... We'll talk about all that more when we get there. But it's prompting the fun theorizing of, Why was Soul there so quickly in the first place? Shouldn't they be off over on their ship? What are they doing there? Is there some other guiding hand at play? All of that's interesting to me. But I don't think that changes the fact that in real-time, it just feels a little inelegant.

I Except for literally everything Jody Turner-Smith does. Wonderful.

Would you let Mother Anissa give you a forehead tattoo? A hundred %.

Great. I think it's beautiful. The white swirl. It's lovely.

Yeah, wonderful.

Mostly hidden by my banks, but when I need to let people know.

When someone needs to tell which twin you are.

Are you Valter or are you Joanna? I'll be like, I've got the forehead tattoo. Otherwise, we're identical. So last but not least, before we get to the deep dive, we got a lot of emails from people asking. We can hear the call on our ear. So that's a delight. Thank you, Steve. Where's Yoda? Many emailers asked, Where's Yoda? Shouldn't Yoda be here? I'm not... Just because someone's alive in an era doesn't mean they need to be in the show. But do you even want Yoda in this show? How do you feel about it?

Absolutely not. And this is It's actually pretty uncomplicated for me. I love to say I'm at war with myself or I'm off two minds. Or I'm a glutton for, give me all the content, give me the nostalgia, give me everything.

This is pretty easy for me.

The fact that Yoda is alive is not actually relevant. I think part of what we need to understand about this era is the scope of the order. We are focusing our attention on a Padawan, and her actually not dead twin. Still a fun episode one twist. That was great. And this quartet of Jedi who made their way for mysterious reasons. I mean, it's not mysterious that they're stealing people's children. That part's clear.

We'll talk about that. Just Saul just snooping and sneak in behind trees. Tough one there for our guy who got one hurt.

But we're focusing in on a group of people, and the order is vast, and everybody's going about their business in the galaxy.

And so, Yoda's posted up at a noodle bar elsewhere in the galaxy.

Yoda's got things going on. There's that. I don't know that we need to imply that everybody is in touch and in each other's lives all the time.

Because there's so many active Jedi out there.

I think if he were referenced or something, that would be fine to me. But to me, it's actually more about what we talked about last week, which is how different and separate and standalone is this show really? I remain a little... I'm still finding my bearings with that, and I'm Again, I'll reserve judgment until the end of the show because there are some parts of the connection to just how we think about what a Star Wars story is. Putting aside the Skywalker saga piece of it for a minute, this idea of how the jedi think about attachment, etc. All the stuff we talked about last week. It makes sense to me that that's a part of this. The idea of taking a theme that we're accustomed to examining and perhaps inverting or in some way recalibrating what the story does with that, I think is great.

The more we We will be saying things like Palpatine and Anakein and Force Diad and Immacular Conception a lot today. Quiagon, midchlorine Jesus. That midi count. That midi count. Stolen blood, blah, blah.

Parallels, cycles, ripples across time. Into it. Too many direct tethers to the story that this show was positioned as not being a part of. Again, how you walked that line to intentionally and deliberately paving the way to something so that we better understand how those characters wound up in that circumstance. Okay, but then if it's just Yoda sitting here, it actually, at some point, it becomes impossible to accept that he allowed Palpatine to rise. I just think he can't be a part of this.

I mean, this is Welcome to the Dark Side, because this is where I was with, I don't want Leia in the obi-wan show because that is hard to make sense of. Or, I actually don't want that much Luke Skywalker and Mando. I really like that Mando was his own thing. So I agree with you wholeheartedly. I also don't want a Darth last name that we already know to be a part of this. That's how it works in the sith, right? That's your last name? You're like, Mr. Plagues. Okay, just making sure. That's where you get your mail addresses, like Mr. And Mrs. Plagues. Just making sure. Okay. Let's go now to the deep dive.

Do you think Darth Plagues was a big handwritten scroll?

Oh, yeah. Have he been to correspondence? He's But also, he's pretty susceptible to chain letters. I mean, have you heard? Deep dive. Let's do it.

I always forget that that's there. Me too. Every time.

Dateline.

Frienduck. I love that you're sticking with this.

Sixteen years ago.

Yeah.

The first thing we see as we, again, in one of the many incredible establishing shots of beautiful... We are definitely in real nature. We are not in the volume shots. We get this beautiful, craggy cliffside. Then we get this Stonehen Stonehenge-esque shape that can invoke either a tythoon from Maedalorian Season 2 or Ceto's from Asoka. We've seen these stones before, and they're either for the jedai or It's witch stuff. And in this case, we're pretty sure it's witch stuff. But who's to say? But did this spark anything for you? Are you a big henge person in general?

I love.

Yeah, you're pro-henge. Oh, yes.

Just making sure. Yes, yes, yes. It makes me actually think of your Prestige TV potting on Shogun and discussing what a rock can represent. I love a henge. I thought this introduction The introductory stretch of the episode visually was stunning.

Yeah, the Buntutri.

Lembert wrote about this in his recap, and I thought this was an astute observation. The gap between the exterior shots and the interior shots in this episode was… It was impossible to not think about as you were watching it. When we were just sweeping in, you have a sense of place. One of the things that we love about the sense of place is not only what it tells us about a community, but about the galaxy. We always talk about in Star Wars, the galaxy is so big, and so places should feel different.

They should feel special. There's one weather system per planet, but they should be different from each other.

This is one of my favorite obsessions of yours. I mean this, sincerely. The why does every planet seem like it's just one square block of one town? It's a fair point. It's a fair point. But we go to the Bunta tree. This was gorgeous.

A blue mushroom. Yeah, this little fluttering creature comes in.

It's like a hummingbird, morphed with a fish, morphed with a gummy bear.

I thought it was beautiful. But also a butterfly.

Sure.

Most obviously, a galactic butterfly, for sure.

That's fourth on my list below Hummingbird. A big bird, fish, and gummy bear.

We get this... Osh is sitting there. She's messing around with the force, and by the force, I, of course, mean the thread. She's freezing the creature. I've seen a lot of interpretations of this of what Osh is doing is just curiosity, and what May is doing is cruel, the difference between the way that they're freezing these creatures. I actually disagree. I feel like what we see in Osh there is she She's also capable of this. She just tamps it down a bit faster than May does. But that idea of pulling wings off the butterfly, which is what they're invoking here.

Or the hummingbird/fish/gummy bear.

Or the gummy bear. You know how you wings off a gummy bear. I think people do and say. They're like, Osha has a bit of that in her.

Yeah, there's this question of how much is Osha tamping down the darkness that is also present in her? I think any time, whatever the exact maybe intention or conscious aspect of what she's doing is there. It's hard not to think any time you're seeing a character hold another living being in a position of stasis like that and controlling another life form, that there's something sinister about it. I think actually that question of, well, is it curiosity versus control? That's what was cool about it to me because I think we can simultaneously say what we're both saying, which is there's something there that pings as alarming, which is also how I felt about it. But that idea of reinforcing to us that maybe it is only a matter of degree. Exactly. And that a tiny thing in your life If a choice somebody else makes, a choice you make, whether the light fixtures on everybody's door have uncontrollable voluminous flames coming out of them, can tip you over the edge.

I think also there's a really interesting... What I love more than almost anything else about this episode is the needle that they thread, no pun intended, with the witches in terms of, are they good or are they bad? I think what the show is really asking you to consider is it depends on your point of view entirely from that certain point of view. But the show, I think, and I hope continues to, refuses to take a stand on whether or not... I don't think there's going to be some big reveal later on that this is actually a sith cult or anything like that. There are some... I think, obviously, there are some connections that we can draw. We can talk about those things. There's definitely certain mother Coral's certainly quicker on the trigger of who's going to miss these four jedi, that stuff. But it's complicated. That made me laugh so much.

I'm like, If only Coral had been around to enjoy Order 66, Coral would have fucking loved Order 66.

She's like, No one's going to miss these four. Get rid of these guys. But let's get rid of them all. Oh, man. But that I hope that it's not going to be a reveal later on. Actually, when we see the jedi point of view, the witches are just evil. The witches are trying to protect something that belongs to them. And what would you do if someone showed up, knocked in the door and said, Hey, we want to take your children. Your children that you created in unnatural ways, then maybe we should be a little scared of it. But it's like, it's tipping really back and forth constantly with these witches. And I just never want the show. I want it to be up to us to decide whether or not these women deserved to just be left alone. Because coming out of this episode, I'm like, Just leave these women alone. None of this would have happened if the Jedi had just minded their own business. But the Jedi are going to feel like, as Torben said, in a tremendous wig before he took some Binta poison. We thought what you were doing is right.

There was a little bit of a rings of power, touch the darkness element to this, right?

Especially for the kids. I think that question of, is it dark side? Is it light side? In a Star Wars story, we're always thinking Well, what is in between? I agree, very present here. I like what you're sketching out about leaving it up to, this is a way that the journey for the viewer and the characters can really be joined. Leaving it up to us to make a decision, whether it's a logical one or a moral one or a philosophical one, about what it means to align yourself with another person, to live your life a certain way. The Buntatree is so beautiful, but oh, it's dangerous only if we eat it, Line, felt very entwined with that idea. This thing, you are literally sitting under this thing.

Poison tree, you don't do that?

I like personally to be in my home.

That's true.

In pajamas under the comfort of a fleece blanket with my cat on my lap as safe as I can possibly be. I do not think I would choose to spend my leisure time under a poison tree, but I do like this idea that this stunning canopy that seems so welcoming and inviting and peaceful could kill you. We actually have seen that happen in the prior episode, right? The Buntipedal put into the poison that Torben drank. That only if we eat it line, I thought more than something other parts of the episode, definitely summed up that idea of, well, you can decide how you engage with that. You can decide whether you activate that possibility.

I also really like that Garden of Eden, the idyllic imagery of the tree that is beautiful but dangerous to you if you eat it. Here we meet the twins in a place of innocence, and everything that happens after is an intrusion on this paradise.

Yeah, and there was a highly religious quality to the entire episode. Yeah, for sure. Whether it's the sermon-like nature of some of the speeches or the idolation and worship at play in some of the rituals. That felt very throughout.

Mae is accusing Osha. She's like, Why do you always run off alone? Why are you always doing this? We don't need to dwell on this because they go back to this well a couple of times in this episode. But I do want to just underline something that Leslie said in the conversation that we had with her last week. Peak is this idea of thinking about Mae and Osha, and again, this episode really underlines this as diametrically opposed in their I want nature. We're so accustomed to the I want of either a Disney princess or A moisture farmer from Tatooine or whatever. You stare off into the distance. I want to go adventuring. And the fact that there would be someone like May who was like, like you, I want to stay home. I'm good where I am with my cozy blanket on my cat. I don't need to go adventuring. I have everything I want right here. I can door-dash whatever I need. I'm fine. Anything. That idea of May as a creature who exists to be in opposition to the classic Star Wars heroic, I want to get off this rock and go see another...

Does it rain on another planet? I would like to know. You know, stuff like that.

Tell me of your home world, Usal. Yeah, it's That part of the twin dynamic and the recurring nature of their conversation, that aspect at least was interesting to me because I think one of the things that the episode does well, it's neither of them is really or clearly right or clearly wrong. That's the point. It's about what you want. There are some lovely conversations later that we'll get to between Mother Anaseya and Osha about the episode's called Destiny for a Reason, this idea of pulling on the thread, making choices, doing something different. We should not think that Osha's desire to heed the call to adventure is in any way wrong. It's a very relatable thing to say, Oh, my God. I was going to say, if I got my Hogwarts letter, The Jedi Coming to steal you and you'll never see your family again. At least the Hogwarts kids get to go home on holidays.

That's a little different. And like, hybrid open with a cake, not, Would you like to handle my lightsaber?

I have some questions about the lightsaver handover.

But of course, the idea of going out into the wider world and discover.

I think we both were thinking a little bit of the Harfoots and Marigold and Nori from, again, season one of Rings of Power with that.

I Why would you?

Yeah, Norea, haven't you ever wondered? The Harfoot, the village, this group of people, like, Well, nobody walks alone. We stay together.

We do our thing. This is how we do it. We walk on our path. Why would you want to do it any other way?

Out there lies danger and risk and harm. Then similarly, for Mae, I think that Mae comes off as... The difference between them ultimately is that OSHA doesn't tell Mae that she has to do what Osha wants, whereas Mae does say, You have to do what I want. That is That's the distinction that the episode was. Or I'll kill you.

Or I'll kill you.

That happened quickly. That's a real Anchor Man, that had an escalated quickly.

A gift moment for me. We have some questions. We have some theories about that for sure. Oh, man.

But you can understand wanting to stay home with your family and not losing the person closest to you in the world. You can understand wanting to go explore something new.

When staying at home means you're never allowed to leave the fortress, that's a bit of a bummer, right? When all you want to do is sit under a poison tree and pull the wings off of gummy bears. Then when your twin is, let's say, our codependent rhyme together, right? I'm with you, always one, but born as two, as above sit the stars, as below lies the sea, I give you you, you, you, give me, me. That's not healthy behavior, even though it is a jaunty little rhyme. I'm going to hit you with our first of many Force Diad references, and I refuse to apologize because it's just the text of this show. Here's what Ben Solo says, My mother was the daughter of Vader. Remember this, Rises Cowaker? My mother was the daughter of Vader. Your father was the son of the Emperor. What Palpatine doesn't know is we're a diad in the forest, Ray, two that are one. That language, two that are one. Yes. Always one, but born as two. It's very intentional referential die edge.

This idea of one force being. We're going to talk more about the Immaculate Conception stuff, which obviously ties to... You're talking about Kylo right here, but that obviously ties us to Anakein. We're connecting in interesting ways to some key figures, and in Star Wars canon here. The later line about their particular connection via the thread also.

Before they were born. Reinforces. Yeah, tied together before they were born.

Reinforces this. This definitely feels like theory corner fatter.

Here comes, Why can't I kill these jedi? Mother Quarrel. A zabrech. And she's like, What are you doing outside the fortress? We got to go home. What are you doing out here? And you're like, Wow, that's a little harsh. And then the music gets ominous. We see a hooded figure lurking behind a tree. And we're like, who's this villain? And then we're like, oh, it's our favorite character, Soul. Tough moment. Hot bummer for us. The Soul Patrol, as one of our listeners called it.

Wow, Yord, Hord, and Soul Patrol.

Yeah, exactly. I love it. I love it, too. So I love this. Again, this is the what point of view. From a certain point of view, Soul, our favorite character of the show so far, with the hood up, lurking in a sneak in a snoop in a behind a tree, had some children.

One of the things that makes the is this Osha's point of view episode really a complex? Because at least so far, we still don't know why Osha left the order, but it seems like that relationship is intact and strong, and that there would not be a reason. And OSHA is the one in this timeline who's like, I want to go. I want to be a Jedi. So if it's just OSHA's point of view, then why is that the frame?

She would not have called for that music cue.

Yeah, exactly.

She would not have been like... She would have scored that scene differently. She wouldn't have been like, cue the Sinister Bastions, please.

And so that makes it feel like it's more of the Coven perspective or a mix or entwined or just not quite as tidy.

It's just a little messy because we'll talk about this a little later on. Or we can just talk about right now, the Rochamont perspective of this. No one's ever seen the 1950 classic Curaçao film Rochamont. It is a story where multiple people tell their version of a and every time you see it because you see it over and over again, it is told differently.

If you'd like a more contemporary example, you could watch Modern Classic, The Affair, where each episode- I can't believe. Yes, you can.

You can believe it where each episode is structured. Is it because Jody Turner-Smith was married to Joshua Jackson, who was on The Affair, and that's why you're thinking about The Affair?

Man, yeah. Cole is always on my mind. The first time Half of the episode is one character's perspective on events, and the second half is another's, and they're off to the details.

They're quite distinct. Watch either The Affair or Rashaun. Same level of quality. We all agree. Rashaun is very strictly in a point of view. This is not what we're watching here, but I would say skewed towards OSHA's point of view, just because the key things that we don't see, the reason we don't see them is because we're with OSHA, is how it feels. Okay, here's my question for you. Yeah. Did Georgia O'Keefe, Fame painter of suggested flowers, design this fortress? Could be.

Okay. Yeah, could be. Not the first thing in Star Wars, whether it's a mountainous lair or a sarlack pit.

I was thinking what Ray dives into. Yeah, or that.

On October. A lot of moments in Star Wars where we we are, the camera and the audience alike, penetrating some vaginal abyss. So there's a lot to think about there.

Thank you. Given that we're about to head into an all-female coven, and given that Oshan may have two mothers, given how little fair core we are in our time here, I think the shape of this particular fortress is wholly intentional. We get the first glimpse of the dual moons in the background of the fortress. We'll see them much more when the sky is dark for the ascension, we'll see them aligning, we'll see them aligning. But I think that seeing them there, noting that the red and the blue form the O in the acolyte logo, that's a really fun moment for me. Anything you want to say about spice creams?

Sounds absolutely delicious.

I have some questions about the trade policy of this enclave of women. How do they get all their goods? Are they wholly self-sufficient or do they take their long bowls and go out trading in the galaxy?

Because we know there They're hunters. They hunt in all seasons. Interesting conversation about that later in the episode. Where do they get the reeds for their baskets?

You know what I mean?

I just have some- Yeah, interesting. Perhaps they're involved in an exchange with another coven of exiled witches? Yeah. Could that be possible?

Coven trade.

Like dotted across- Us mattering.

Us mattering. Us mattering covens.

Which covens across the galaxy, the different natural resources at your disposal in a given location. It's a great question. This is why you're the best, because you were thinking about how would this society actually function? I was thinking, how can I get my hands on a spice cream immediately? What is the commute at this exact moment in time down to Galaxy's Edge from my home? If Coral wants the children to remain content in the fortress, let them have a fucking snack.

A sweet treat. Yeah. My girls.

I'm not a parent, so I don't actually know how to ensure the children have balanced nutritional diets. But when halo is like, I'd like to treat him like, You got it, buddy.

What if he had misbehaved and gone outside the house when he's not supposed to?

Well, he's an angel.

Oh, he never does anything.

Everything he No, I forgot.

It was perfect. Okay, so one thing I will note is when they walk into this courier filled with many goods and services that one creator could not provide, the women seem to be bowing to the girls. So they have this place, and we'll find out later that they're the reason these women aren't going to go extinct, that they've found some young women here. Leslie Hadlin has said, These witches are not the Night Sisters, but they are inspired by the Night Sisters, and also the Path of the Open Hand, which is a fringe sect, I would say, that you could read about in the High Republic novel. So if you want to do your High Republic homework, again, you don't have to, but you can. But the Path of the Open Hand is one of those groups that had a different point of view when it came to the Force and how to use it.

And that the Jedi shouldn't be allowed to. Yeah. Night Sisters, of course, on our minds here, the thread language that we got some real, Oh, it's pinge in great mothers in Asoka for me, comps there. Just helpful in terms of clarifying for us that it's not the same to give us Purple Mist instead of green. When we're pulling the magic down and using it to plant a farm and tat on a youngster.

We've got beautiful face tattoos and not horrible white makeup like we saw on the Night Sisters of Nesoka. Our robes are purple, they're not red. Yeah, all the color coding is really helpful. Do you think May's purple robe in her, I'm going to sneak around and kill a lot of Jedi mode, is that a nod to her? Oh, interesting. Her origins, her culture.

Could be. There is a pretty ominous, Hey, kiddo, if I die, make sure you carry on our traditions moment during the ascension. So it could be part of how Mae is honoring this history and honoring what at least she believes is her effort to do exactly that. It could be that she, like me, is a passionate believer that this is the year the Ravens will win the Lombardi Trophy. It could be that. That's possible.

Okay. All right.

Do you not think that's what it is? No.

For you, I will choose to believe this whole episode is dedicated to the Ravens. Okay.

Thanks, pal.

We get a lot of other stuff between Coral and Anaseya, who have different ideas of how to raise these children. A lot of these things will come back more, so we'll talk about them later. But the Twins are not Normal Children is a big moment that happens here. And then we get into this force lesson. By force lesson, I, of course, mean a thread lesson with Mother Anaseya. Again, this is like one of those moments where they just let Jody Turner-Smith cook. It was wonderful.

Like hypnotic and mesmerizing.

Steve, will you hit us with this clip? All living things are connected by the same thread, a thread woven through all of existence. Some call it a force. It's a nice name. I came to use it. But we know the thread is not a power you wield. Pull the thread, change everything. It ties you to your destiny. It binds you to others. Valar Rubin, as you mentioned, I love witch stuff.

You love a witch. You hate a crevice, but you love a witch.

I love threads and fate and destiny. So we, of course, have to talk for a second about the fact that when we covered Asoka, we were noting every single time House Hottie or One of the Night's Sisters or Morgan- House Hattie.were mentioning threads and fate. The threads of fate. Fate has decided our next move. What thread is she spinning? It was a loose thread, they say, about something they couldn't see coming. The thread of fate has spoken to us. The thread of destiny demands it.Demands it.Right? It is a classic.It.

Is a loose thread. It was a really fun one.

It was a loose thread. It was a really fun one. Obviously, they were a reference to the fates, and we talked a lot about the mythology around that. But I think it's no coincidence that we're talking about magic and the force in similar language across these different witchy covens.

Yes, which I love. The tie to the coven, the tie to... Because even though, again, these are not the Night Sisters. That is another interesting... We don't have enough information about this coven to really make a call, but the question of, well, what is darkness? Magic. When you're realizing your magic and tapping into some dark power, then the way that other force users or other pockets of society think of you as a threat.Unnatural.Unnatural. So that's fascinating. It just feels very intentional. It could have been a force by any other name here, But the fact that we got the thread language is intended to make us think of this.

As Ben pointed out, and I have to agree, when Mother Anaseya says, We know the thread is not a power you wield, but then they go on to talk about power a lot in this It's just a little like, I think that has to be intentional. They're not sloppy writers here on this show. So I think it's just like, Mother Anaseya, who I really like, and I would absolutely join her, Coven, in a minute. Yeah, of course. She's incredible. Is perhaps a bit hypocritical or slightly deceptive in the way that she talks about. When she says later, no weapons, no violence, and then takes over the mind of Torben. Yeah.

And again, I like It's maybe too soon to say whether that's just not a perfectly executed line or whether that's almost intentional hypocrisy, because that's another interesting parallel. If this group of characters looks at the Jedi and say, what gives you the right X, Y, and Z, your relationship to the force, the way you think about who else can use it or tap into it, or even what it is inherently. I thought the, obviously, everything about the thread and Destiny, because Destiny is the name of the episode, there are a number of other lines about Destiny that we'll talk about as we go. Certainly, that's the thrust of this. But I thought the claim to use it language was as notable because the idea that the force is something you can tap into or channel versus the idea that it's a great tapestry that you are stitched into.

And pull the thread, which I don't feel like I have a full grasp on what is meant by that. It's used again later. In another beautiful moment. I don't think we have a clear comp for that. It's not the same as use the force loop. It's not the same thing. I would love to learn more. If they want to just do a full short spin-off on on social media.Website? Yeah. We're still doing websites, right? Like a quibi, maybe? Mother and a Stan's sermons. I would go watch them all. But I think that what we want to talk about is this idea of the power of two, the power of many. We could talk about dyads again if you want to, of course. It's hard not to. But this idea of combining power amongst Jedi, and please tell me if I'm wrong about this, is not something we've seen a lot of. There's a few examples. There's season 2, episode 3 of Clown Wars. We've got, and we talked about this, I think, leading up to the Asoka podcast. We've got Yoda, and obi-1, and Mace, and Anakean are meditating to find the force. They are meditating together.

That feels like a combination of force power. But overall, this idea of combining power is much more of a sith concept, at least in the legends, than it is a jedi concept. Do you agree or disagree about that?

Interesting. Yeah, I think that inside of the jedi, across the canon, it can be all of the above. I think it could be all of the above one or the other in a given moment with a given character set for either the Seth or the Jedi. Because we talk about the rule of two a lot with the Seth. A diad is Two beings who become one force being. What is the master and apprentice relationship? Now, that's not the same as rule of two, but- Yeah, but it's never like, Qui-Gon is never like, Kobe 1, join hands with me and we will use the force stronger together. Exactly. This is what I think is interesting about it. It's like the Jedi, it's a wide, vast, especially in the stretch of the canon, collective. You have temples everywhere. You have these groups of people. Local temples. It always goes completely fine for the younglings who are assembled at a given local. But then there is this... The defining relationship in your life is going to be with this one other person. I think all of those things are true at once. It was hard not to think about on the power of many front.

We have not seen this yet. We have no idea how this will come into play in the season. And trailers can often be deceptive. But the shot of all the lightsabers activating at once, that feels like, Oh, power of many. You were asking last week when Soul and May were fighting. You asked a couple of things. Why doesn't everybody just kick dirt up into somebody else's face? But also, do you think you're One of your questions was, do you think Jord pulled the blade? Is that something that's priming us for the idea of, let's work together and tap into some larger force? I think that's interesting, but I was also struck by, and this might be an inaccurate overreading of the scene wouldn't be the first time. But in the stretch where the power of two stretch, where Mother Anaseya is first… It's a little bit of a tutelage for the youngsters, right? Mother Anaseya is first off against one other person and then against two. There seemed to be a little bit of a… There's a pushing gesture, and then there was against two, a pulling and then a holding, a harnessing. She had actually…

She It seemed to me like they were implying that there was an ability to actually harness more power with more people, literally. To hold more power in your hands. It's greater than the sum of their parts. Yeah, and obviously, that's happening then later in the ascension as well, where there's I'm not an astrologist nor an astronomer. I don't really…

It's a lot of things I'm not. What? Star stuff? Star stuff? Yeah.

But it almost looked like the two moons were in an eclipse state, right? At that max power.

They were aligning.

Two as one, an alignment, and a pulling, a channeling of that power from two as one that is then ported.

Yes. The blue and the red of the moon being pulled down into this purple-tinged power.

It is a power.

Sure is. What happens when you combine a light cider saber and a dark cider saber? You get your blue and your reds. You get Mace Wendu. Okay, so we had the public thread force tutoring, and we get private tutoring. This is the benefit of your mom being in charge of the coven. You get private It's thread tutoring.

We love prep.

This is where we get the line where it says, When their mother tells them that the thread tied them together since before they were born. This is the most dyad Force Diane talk that we've heard so far, I think, right?

Yeah, I think so. I mean, it's difficult not to think. Okay. Force Diane.

Let me hit you with a Palpatine quote. Please. Legends claim that two beings shared this profound connection gain access to a great number of ability skills beyond the grasp of even the most powerful forcebuilder.

That's a good Palpi. Thanks. Well, great Palpi. Love that Palpi.

What about Mother Anaseya saying that the ascension is going to require that they walk through fear?

Yeah, some litany against fear, dune energy.

Jedi trial of courage energy. We love that.

Yeah. That's interesting, too, with the ascension and the trials, thinking about similarities and differences between a different ritual in a different group and how they relate to the force and think about what it means to graduate to a different level of readiness or connectivity to that. This was a fascinating stretch because I think that idea of being tied together, the fear, all of it, there's a lot of guidance and nurturing, but also then, Here, let me literally put your hands together.

Don't let go. You're going to have to give up a part of your sofa the greater whole. There's so much... And again, this is the... This is something that I like about this episode, this inherent contradiction inside of Anaseya, where she will be so, as you say, nurturing and supportive, but also like, But, Osha, you're going to do this. Osha is literally trembling as she walks up to the Ascension ceremony, and none of those would just seem to care at all. No, everybody has compelled her to do this thing that she clearly doesn't want to do.

I thought even the, You think you want something different, the life in this coven, but that is because you are young. The galaxy is not a place that welcomes women like us, was It's another instance of it's a duality at play there because I think the first part of that, just because you're young, that's again, that marigal, nori, a Harfoot idea, right? Nobody goes off the trail. But there's this... You can't fast forward those formative years in your life when you discover things for yourself. That's not a bad thing to want. So trying to say, it's just because you don't know. It's like, well, right, go find out. That's part of what it means to be a person and go on your own journey of discovery. But then you get to the second part of that, and you see that that comes from a nurturing and protective instinct. It feels like the thing that is driving that is well intended We are in exile. We've been persecuted.

We were persecuted.

Don't leave the fortress because somebody might be waiting right around the tree bend to take you away from us. But then if it manifestsates ultimately in you feeling like you can't live your life. Yeah.

It's real King Triton, people on land eat fish, so you can't go up there, Ariel. She's like, But what if I have legs, though? Another part of the Ascension ceremony is to sacrifice a part of themselves, which is a very, again, this very socialist force user idea. There's a Council of Twelve here. We are in a Share Power coven, but Mother Anastasia does get final word. She's like, Everyone share power, but also I'm the final word on everything. Great stuff. Because I cooked us up some midi-clorian special twins. Oh, man. Is the specialness of these twins, why the Seth are so interested in May or in May and OSHA. Because there is this, outside of the movie's doctrine of the Diad is this Seth lore, long promised carved into the wall, the siths, Citadel in Exegol. I know you're so I'm excited to talk about Eccigal again.

Always love to go to Eccigal.

You're like, take me back to Eccigal, always. But in canon, Garth Plague has tried to create a diad with Citius. Citius has tried to create one with Vader, and that failed attempt is how we got Kylo and Ray. So the The Diad is something that the synth had been after for a very long time. And I'm wondering this. This is something that a friend of the pod, Dave Gonzales and I, were talking about recently, which is like, Mando was bogged... The MandoLorean in season 2 and 3 is bogged down so much by trying to explain the cloning Palpatine plot. Is a mandate of this show make us feel more comfy with the concept of the diad? What do you think?

Any time we can talk about the Sith eternal and Egsgol, we have to do it. I think that it is, again, impossible not to be thinking about these things when you're in the stretch of the episode. We were hunted, persecuted, forced into hiding all because someone consider our power dark. A I mean, of course, this makes us think of Palpatine. It makes us think of Anakein, it makes us think of Revenge of the Seth before we get to somehow Palpatine return and rise with Skywalker. The great seduction sequence, he could use the force to influence the midi-clorians to create life. The dark side of the force is a pathway to many abilities, some consider to be unnatural. Then you go back to, okay, how are the characters in this episode, they act like talking about this other than the very deliberate utterance of the word unnatural. We were on the brink of extinction, and then we were blessed with the miracle, the gift of life. There's the sequence with Coral and Anaseia talking about, I carried them, I created them, which is very active, a first-person way of talking about this. This, We were blessed with the miracle, the gift of life, makes it sound like something that they have received, that there is another presence.

Bargained for?

Yeah, maybe, right? Made a deal with the devil for? Yeah, this question of using the word unnatural to make us think of that Palpatine speech in the association with potentially using the midi-clorians to create life.

Was Mother Anastasia guided in some respect? Was this something that they knew they wanted to do, and then they had to seek some assistance or boon. If they have, in fact, succeeded in creating a Force Diet in some capacity, then is this something that the Seth and the Jedi I would be seeking either to use or to eliminate. You could look at that from any different- Separate.perspective..

All of that.

What the thread has tied together, no one can separate. And so what if somebody needs to or thinks they need to because what that thread represents when it is intact is too dangerous.

Yeah. This idea of separation, I think, is a good one to transition into this email we got from Sarah. I really love this email because... I did hear the car. I really love it. The car. The car coming through the in studio was really...

That was good.

What Sarah is underlining here is this idea we're talking about, okay, we're reminded of mannequin, we're reminded of Quiagon, we're reminded of twins we've seen before in Star Wars, all this other stuff. She's underlining here how intentional that might be. So she says, Sarah writes, Even though Yoda is not mentioned at all in the show, So instances or phrases always make me think of Yoda's scenes. Saul and Osha's conversation about grief made me think of Yoda and Anakean in episode three, when Yoda talks to Anakein about his dreams. Saul's conversation talks about grief, naming that emotion for Osha. Whereas Yoda says to not to mourn or miss those who return to the Force. Learn to let go of all that you fear to lose. The other thing that keeps popping into my mind is Yoda's decision to separate Luke and Leia. Yoda says that they need to split them up to hide them from the It makes you wonder if there's something special about twins born of the Force and what power that unlocks. Force dyads is a term that's been thrown around a lot, but I know Luke and Leia weren't force dyads as both don't have the healing powers like Ray and Kylo.

It's small, but why was Yoda so insisted on keeping the twins separated to hide them from the gaze of the Emperor? Maybe it goes beyond having two powerful force users together, which would tip off Citius. Maybe it's a power he's seeking. Also, to address if Osha and May's conception cheapens Anakins, It reminds us of the potential Chosen One trope that is in so many stories like Harry Potter, Game of Thrones, Dune, and even the Bible. Perhaps Oshan May are the reason the Jedi Council in the prequels is so afraid and wary of Anakins' power. Maybe this instant sparks the Chosen One prophecy, and also pointed to as an example when deciding not to take older children to begin training. So it's not just like, as we were talking about, oh, them saying OSHA is too old makes us think of Anakein. Maybe that's the reason why they were so scared of taking Anakein is because of someone like Osha.

That last part is pretty compelling to me.

Yeah, it is.

Because as you know, I actually bumped on that a little bit in the premiere. Okay, another. But if that's an example of the active connection that I would find pretty rich and interesting. We should say the chosen one prophecy dates back.

Definitely.

Back, back, back, back, back. That's just the story The specific language, there's obviously a long explanation in legends, but in canon, in new canon, the specific language includes born of no father. The idea that they would be, or one of them, or both, is it a threat? Are you a candidate? Who sees you as a threat? Who sees you as a candidate? That is really interesting and fascinating.

It's very Neville Longbottom, right?

Yeah. My sweet Neville. Yeah. Who does that make Nagini in this situation then?

I'm scared to tell you.

The Fantomenus-Schmie line, There was no father. I carried him. I gave birth. I raised him. I know I'm jumping forward a little bit, but obviously, I think it connects to what is being raised in this email. I can't explain what happened. The comics, D arth Vader, number 25. That stretch where we see Palpatine, it's absolutely horrific, right? Like, arms around, schmie. This seems to like, we get the there was no father, we get the Unnatural, we get the chosen one as our little werbs. It seemed to be canon confirmation that Palpatine had used the force to use the midi-chlorians to create midi-chlorian Jesus. Yes. Matt Martin from Lucas Film was very active on Twitter saying that that was not the case and encouraging people to keep in mind that we're in Anakein's head when we're reading those panels.

Are you saying it's from a certain point of view?

Which, again, feels very thematically interesting. When I read that comment, I think a lot of Star Wars fans read that comment. We got it. It's canon. That's what happened. Maybe it is, but maybe it isn't. The fact that we still don't know that, and now we have other characters who are interesting pathways into assessing that is pretty interesting to me. I'm intrigued by this part of it and connection.

I really like this idea. I mean, whether or not it applies to the Luke and Leia. But I think that's interesting, this idea of, let's keep Force Twin separate. Let's be wary of children born of no father who are a little too old to join the order. We've been here before. Whether or not Yoda actually enters the fray, which you and I both agree we do not want. It is, hopefully this story survives the people who are in this show somehow. Somehow someone survived, but still was surprised by the sin. Somehow Palpatine turned and somehow someone remembers every lesson here and allowed Palpatine to rise. Yeah, and dinner, sorry, I forgot about the iron froze. Things happen. Okay, listen. We're going to skip to the Ascension. Here's what I have to say, and I'm going to say it down on the camera. It's the Ascension, baby, and it fucks. It rules. This is one point on which Benjamin Lindberg and I wildly disagree because he thought this was dumb and hokey. I think these cool witches in their hot velvet outfits, swaying and singing. There's a musical number. There is a musical number. There's a magic.

A magic? There is magical threads being pulled from the very stars themselves.

Yeah, that part I like. This rules. Pulling down the magic from the... I love this. The moon was cool. I enjoyed parts of this.

No, come to the light with me.

The mother on a say, moving through the front.

The thing that was in the trailer? That was... I was like, This is great.

I'm actually afraid to say this to you because I love you and I don't want to hurt you. But the The musical number? In part to a musical number, I was not totally sold on. It bothered you? No, it didn't bother me.

I was just like, What if I just call you occasionally or leave you an occasional voice memo? They were like, The power of one, the power of two, the power of many. Is that going to-Let's find out. Brighten your day? Let's find out. I would love it.

I think I would love it. I would love it.

But alluded to this in his recap. There are two mysterious robed figures, and some people are wondering if they're just some sith pals hanging out at the front of the congregation here. But you also see similarly robed figures in the back, and they have long bows. So I really think these are just more like, we're not actively participating in the ceremony because we've got some guard duty to do it. I am He's inclined to believe that those are two siths standing at the front of the ceremony.

I am absolutely not ruling out some sith manipulation, either of the coven or the jedi.

Or why not both?

Yeah, right. But I don't know that the hooded figures are necessarily Sith.

As we think about how much the musical number rules and no one has any comments or concerns about it and how great it is, let's hear from Mother Anaseya about this particular ceremony. Tonight, we enact a ceremony we have not performed since our exile. We were hunted, persecuted, forced into hiding, all because some would consider our power dark. Unnatural. We were on the brink of extinction. And then we were blessed with a miracle. The gift of life.

Hey, Steve, can we ask you to in the middle of our pod, just every couple of sentences to start making that sound for us? The yipping? Yeah, so we know we're doing great.

Thank you, Steve.

If you could incorporate that into your process, we'd, I think, appreciate it.

I really am remiss that I mentioned the velvet, I mentioned the dancing, I mentioned the musical number, and I forgot to mention the Xena warrior princess, Yululations, that also happened here. The closed captioning said, Laps manically, and I thought that was the closed captioning like, tipping their hand of like, this is an evil coven if they're laughing manically. But I'm like, that's just a jubilation. That's just a joyous yip. Listen. We have, out of nothing, created some twins, and now we're going to, one of them against their will, imbue them with a power that we have drawn down from the very stars themselves.

You know, also, it's a lesson for us all because mere hours later, they are all mysteriously killed in a A very powerful fire/rock slide.

How much time do you think passes? Because there's the whole, they have to walk over, do the Jedi test, come back, have a lot of different conversations. It's like, they've got 20 Four hours to live. It's thereabouts.

You can only have so many spice creams in that time.

Listen, says you. Okay, so we get it, right? The lesbians can't procreate without midochlorine IVF. And they did it. They made these twins. I don't know if it's important that we learn May and Osha's full names, but I thought that they were really pretty, Meihō and Verosha. And I like every time they call Osha O'She, I think that's very cute as well. You already mentioned that Mother Anastasia is like, When I die, protect the secrets in 24 hours. Protect the secrets of the coven. Here comes the Jedi. What could go wrong? What could possibly go Slicing in.

We're back with DJ in the last Jedi. Love a slice. There was also that before we get the slicing here and then before we get, of course, the crackling explosion of the control room amid the very powerful fire leader. There was the moment earlier in the episode. When they're like, What's all that? What's all that? What is that? Is that like, is someone like, yeah, running like a iOS update engine room?

What was that? The rats in the wall of the It primes us like, something feels a miss before this.

Is that something the Jedi are doing? Is there a saboteur inside the coven?

Stay tuned. Oh, it's an inside job. Stay tuned for the next flashback is what I would say when it comes to that. Here come all the Jedi. We had already seen Saul, but we get Indara, we get Torben, and we get Kalnaka, and every single one of them has banks. A friend of mine texted me. He's like, Next time I go get my haircut, I'm going to tell them I want the flashback Saul. And I'm like, It's a good look. It is. It's a really good... It's very talonsoul. It looks great. Loved it. We talked a lot about this already. Anything you want to... I will say Indara, I love Kari and Moss. I love Trinity. I am a big fan. Indara, I'm not that into. And I think, especially when we think about whatever happened here, and we'll talk about our theories in a little bit, but whatever happened here, Torben's like, I got to go meditate for a decade about this.

And Dara's like, I'm going to hang out at the bar with my pals.

Kalmaka is like, I'm going to live off the grid forever. Soul is like, I'm going to dedicate myself to the teaching of children. And Dara's like, whatever. Tell me about your IPA and your noodles. Exactly. Oh, you got some dinner noodles? Okay.

I feel like they did look delicious.

But she seems to have no-ish with what happened here. Totally.

If anybody hasn't listened to the Midnight Boys episode yet, obviously, check that out. Charles is officially planting his flag on-I don't like this theory. Indara Island. It's not my theory either, though. I do think, obviously, the jedi did something very wrong here. That's clear. I don't think that Indara is going to be the sif, the stranger, the he, the person we keep hearing about under the helmet in the premiere. But I do think whether it is just a misreading of the Jedi mission, some power, media.

She's their leader in this, right? Saul is seemingly second in command. She's first command. Torben's only a Padawan, and Kalmack is there for the vibes, it seems like. We have to fix the motorcycle.

We have to talk for a second before we get back to what Indara voices about the Jedi might is right presence here, which I think was horrifying, and we were meant to think was horrifying. Yes. Just for a second, we must luxuriate in the levity of... Okay, there's like...

I love to luxuriate in the levity.

I love to luxuriate in the levity. I know we've got some notes on, Okay, hide the children. They're here to steal our children, hide the children, and then the children are just loudly conversing while I'm hiding. Oh, sure. Shut.

I know that that did not sit well with you. Bothered me. And then narcs on May, too.

Yeah, it's like, When does your sister come down? Yeah, May. You definitely don't want to do this. We do get the little nod from Mother Anastasia. But the moment where Coral says, Coral doing her best, There are no kids here. We all know there are kids. There are no kids here.

The January is like, Can't I didn't know there was anyone here. And she's like, There are no kids here. We're all telling the truth together. No kids here.

And then Kelnaka loudly roars and the subtitling says Sniffs.

This is just so funny to me. Anyway, Indara. I'm in that levity. Thank you so much for it. I love your hit in levity. Thanks for sharing it. And Dara. And Dara.

Okay, so the wild, yeah, like, Oh, sorry, we just happened upon your secret fortress. We thought this was an uninhabited planet. Obviously, horse shit. Everybody knows it's horse shit.

We think you have children here because Soul was snooping around the tree line.

Which and they out themselves because Soul, later in the scene, will be like, She didn't have that tattoo before. That kid didn't have that tattoo that morning.

When I was spying on them in the woods. But yeah.

As they're lightly tormented beautiful creatures.

This is something forbidden by Republic law. Yes. And Anaseya very reasonably points out- We're not in the Republic. We're not in the Republic, bro. So what's your jurisdiction here? So what's your jurisdiction here? So what's your jurisdiction here? So what's your jurisdiction here? So what's your jurisdiction here?

So what's your jurisdiction here?

Slicing the platform. You slice your way.

Now, has someone made it easier for you to do that? Maybe. But you've done that. You state that it is your right to be able to test these children. Obviously, this opens up some interesting thinking. We have a to noodle on always with what it means for a youngling to be taken away from their family to make their way into the order. You gain something, this new life and opportunity, but you leave something behind. Like, Anakein, a character who grew up with a family, and now we have these other characters who are older at this point. Okay, well, why would the Jedi... Why would you not be able to ever see your family? Why would you not be able to maintain that attachment? Well, here's a character like Anakein Skywalker who had to go back and sluck him in a mass slaughter.

The women and the children. And the children I'm going to do. But to see it, to see them go in and say, Their ours, was really disturbing.

Really, really disturbing. And this question of, again, the gatekeeping of power that you were raising last week and how that plays here, but also just who is entitled to what. We think about this on a sayaline about power, which we'll talk about. It's all connected, right? We're entitled to It makes me think a little bit of Allison and Reniera in the great eye for an eye fight in season one. Even that, you feel entitled, right? This question of, what is the limit on what you think is yours?

It goes back to our very first moments with Indara and also her very last moments on Earth when she says, Who trained you? And then, I have an unidentified force user. So of all the Jedi that we see here, Indara is the hardliner, which is part of why I really do not think that with love and respect to Charles, he's a great, smart, wonderful critic, but this theory corner, I cannot join him on. Sol says, The Jedi do not take children, which is deeply untrue.

I mean, it's just not accurate. It's just untrue. I love Sol, but That is just simply not the case.

Then just planks his saber into the hand of a child. Also not great. That was wild.

I like the moment of playing on our anxiety there when he reaches for it like, Oh, are we about to resort to violence? No, it's something very innocent.

I'm just I'm just going to put this...

I'm just going to hand this weapon to a child to try to lure her into our way of life.

Violar her.

This is just a horrible weapon.

Yeah, exactly. From a most civilized age. So listen, mistakes were made on all sides because Mother Anaseya then takes over Torben's mind, and we're going to come back to this.

This was a tough one.

But this was a tough one. Were you thinking about Sabine in Rebels being taken over by the Night Sisters? Sure, yeah.

And of course, also the changing of the eyeball that we saw in the dream state. For For May. For May in the premiere of that, I think really exacerbates the question of was somebody, like we talked about last pod, planting that vision for OSHA intentionally. We came down on the YES corner, I think, seeing this year. And is that a hint? It makes us feel even more certain. Yeah, right. Is that a hint who might be doing it? That feels like just apparent now, right? That somebody's doing that. But that question of, okay, this was almost watching this happen to Torben, returned to his right mind. But he also was gasping in pain. It was this imperio crucio combo play there. I think it is right and reasonable for us to be discussing, well, is it fair that they were persecuted and forced into exile because other people think their powers are dark when maybe X, Y, and Z points to otherwise? Then you see something like this and you're like, this is a vile thing.

It is. Again, to the point, it's constantly teetering back and forth, I think. The witches council happens. We have that whole carried and created line that we talked about. The girls will take the test. They're supposed to throw the test. The girls just have the same fight again and again about who wants to stay and who wants to leave. We don't need to go into it too much. What do you want to say about the Jedi test? How do you feel about young Padawin Torben just Stealing the blood.

I never like it when the jedi do this.

Just jabbing someone.

I never like it when the jedi do this.

This is standard jedi procedure to take the blood and test it. Yeah, real Qui-Gon. Qui-gon move. Well, no, but Qui-Gon is way worse because he's like, Let me just clean your wound for you. Oh, what am I doing? I'm just checking your blood. I rewatched that Qui-Gon scene and I was like, That was so dicey, dude. So at least Torben is like, This is what I'm doing. But I'm just saying, Say that before the jab, not mid or post-jab. That's my note for young Padawan Torben there.

Yeah, it's all a little fucked up. I think any time you're taking the blood of a child to test and screen it, to decide if they're worthy of your tutelage without telling them what you're doing when also they're only there in the first place after you basically manipulated their coven and family into feeling like they had no choice but to grant you. So did I not look great in this episode so far? It's an interesting one. Again, this larger question of the grayness at play. Because we have this, is it light? Is it dark? Is everyone gray in this story? I think the dyad and good or evil twin trope is also connected to that, because there's a version of this, and it's the one we've, on the surface, at least, seen so far where it's like, Osha's the good twin, May's the evil twin. But we don't... That's not what we believe is.

We've already seen nuanced behavior in that when May walks out of the noodle Exactly.

That almost feels like the expectation that we are going to then subvert. Because we're talking a lot about dyads. The other thing that was pinging for me in this episode with all the like, We're one, we're born still.

No, say it the right way. You'll have to sing to me. The power of one, the power of two, the power of many. Yeah, you already love the song. You love it.

It is growing on me. I'm a bit of an ear worm. I was thinking a little bit of the ones, the Mortis gods, and this idea of a very powerful force family where you have the daughter associated with the light side, the son associated with the dark side, and the father as balance. Whether certain characters would, whether it's true or not, think that that's what was happening here, or whether inside of a diad, that is part of how you achieve balance, is if that actually is happening, and then part of what will disrupt or upend how this diad functions. Is that flipping or morphing or not ending up being such a clean, tidy divide?

There is so much that I hate about The Rise of Skywalker. But something that I really like is when we get that vision of dark Ray, and when we get Kylo Ren as Ben Solo. So that idea of pulling towards the dark, pulling towards the light, and is the purpose of the diet to find some balance in the middle. We get the testing of OSHA straight out of Phantom Menace, same prop that the Jedi Council uses. I have a note on this. Okay.

Now, the actual things that Aniken... Okay, so crucially, we're not in there with May. We know we can glean that May successfully failed the test, but we're not in there with May.

May knows how to follow orders from her mom.

Osha That was good. We're in there with O'Sha, so we see the test. I just think this reminds me of back in the day when I actually did go to the eye doctor many moments ago. I would just be like, I just can memorize the bottom line. Then every time they test it, I just know what the letters are.

You used to cheat your eye test? Maybe. Why? Maybe not.

But my point is, if you're a kid in a situation, you just go in and you be like, ship. You're probably going to be right. Spider, ship.

If you just throw- Other ship. Some cat.

It's like a sweet little love cat. I think part of what we're able to read from Soul there is that he There is a moment where you're like, does he just want her to be failing on purpose, or can he actually tell? What can you sense through the force?

Oh, I feel like he can tell. I think so, too.

That's another thing, by the way. This connection between them, joined by the thread, the dyad theorizing. One thing that I am struggling with a little bit here is accepting. This episode made it even harder for me to accept that they would not know the other was alive in terms of their connection, which, here's how I then work through that, to me just further cements the fact that somebody is manipulating this. Maybe that means there's an active block from another party on their connection.

Like Indara blocked her force Qi. I love this.

What did you make of Sol pulling Osha aside during the test to share his history? This was such a major moment for me.

Steve, can we hear our guy, Sol? I was younger than you are. When the jedi tested me, I was only four. Really? Yes. But I knew I was different from my family. The jedi saw how special I was. And I can see that in you, OSHA. I was very scared to leave my family. But when I joined the Jedi, I found out there were many other children like me. There are other children there?

Thousands like us.

But you You must have the courage to say what you want. This was already on my list as really key moment of the episode, and then the Midi boys were also talking about how it felt so key to them. But I had already written my notes that every time someone tells a story of being taken by the Jedi, it sounds harrowing. We've seen some slightly nicer versions, like Asoka, stuff like that. But it reminded me so much of that scene in OB-1 episode 3 when OB-Wan is talking to Leia, and she's like, Are you my real father? And he's like, I wish that I could say that I was, but no, I'm not. And she says, Sometimes I try to imagine what he was like, and OB-Wan goes, I know that feeling. As jedi were taken from our families when we're very young, I still have glimpses, flashes, really. My mother's shal, my father's hands. I remember a baby. A baby? Yes, I think I had a brother. Terrible.

2b1, can OB So sad.

Really don't remember him. I wish I did. Then I joined the jedi and I got a new family just like you. No problem. Who cares? I had a brother. And then everything was fine.

And then everything was fine.

Nothing went wrong. I had a new brother in Anakein. You were my brother, and now we're fine. I never screamed. You My brother. And that was fine. I never screamed, You were my brother. And that was fine. Then I watched someone else melt in the end of the llama. I definitely didn't have flashes to my original brother. Anyway, obi-wan, like consummate company man, also has this harrowing origin story. So it's It's like, Saul is telling this story like, this is a good thing. You're going to find a family. There are other children out there. You don't have to be stuck with your codependent twin as your only playmate. There's other options. But he was afraid. He was scared to leave his family because he was four.

Yeah, of course. Again, that idea that you have to leave them behind not just for a change in a new adventure, but forever. The finality of it. Of course, this connects to this attachment through line. That was one of the things I really loved about… I mean, this was a fascinating episode to play on our attachment to Saul because like…

What does he know?

When did he know it? Yeah, we're just in like, Oh, my God, Jedi. We have some notes, a headspace throughout this entire episode, but the tenderness on display from him here is just so winning and the charisma is so warm. That idea, but you must have the courage to say what you want, is in a very, I think interesting and satisfying way, quite contrary to a lot of the lessons that the Jedi try to enforce on each other. It's about selflessness. It's not about you. It's not about what you want. It's about this other thing, this grander mission that we have. And so for Soul to be a character who not only voices that aloud and thinks that about himself, but that is part of the lesson that he wants to impart to the person in his charge, felt very, very, very, very notable to me.

I totally agree. We got a name from a listener, Jack, who there's a... I love the call. It's a theory I don't necessarily agree with, but I think it leads to somewhere interesting. Where Jack was wondering about the May and Soul fight in episode 2, and how May does not do the whole, We have unfinished business, fight me with all of your strength, line. When she throws the knives, they go at Soul's feet. Did she throw a warning shot on purpose, or did he pull them down into the sand? We could debate that. But is Soul actually her target here? We can talk about this in just a second when Soul is looking for May and Osha, and I believe that that's true. But is he on her list? We know that four Jedi are on her list, but she never says Saul. Osha is the one who's like, Obviously, you're on the list. So is it someone else on the list? Is it Vern? This is not Jack's theory, this is my theory. Is it Vern on the list because she's part of the cover up? Is that true? This Jack's theory is the idea of killing a jedi without a weapon not about doing it with a force, but about seducing them to the dark side.

Jack cites the times that Vader says, I killed Anakein Skywalker. By seducing him to becoming a dark side.

And this connects to kill the dream.

Yeah, kill the dream. Is Saul going to be seduced in the dark side? I don't see that as a future for Saul, but I am worried always about Saul. I'm worried that if he dies, it might be Osha who does it. If Ocha finds out more about what happened in the fire.

Yeah, that feels more likely and I think would also fit the kill the dream idea, certainly. For both of those characters and for all of those characters. The idea of the Vader, Anakein, that's how you could kill without a weapon, solve the dark side. It's intriguing to me, but I don't see it going that way, but I think it's maybe more that I don't want it to, if I'm being honest, because I just feel that could it be done well? I'm sure. Could it be done tragically and poignantly? I Certainly. Another character in Star Wars who the thing we know most to be true about them is you're a poster boy for attachment, and then you fall to the dark side again. I think I would actually really dislike that.

I really hope that's not what happens. I don't mind his attachment and his tenderness and Oshia being his Achilles heel, being his downfall, being the thing that stays his when he needs to in a fight. That makes sense to me, but you're right. We don't necessarily need to do exactly that story anymore. I also... We'll see. The Bunta leaf keeps coming up. We've seen it in tree form. We've seen it in absolution form. Is it a theory about what happened to the witches that I've seen going around is we know that they have stores of Buntalief because they use it to hunt. Did the Buntalief supply go up in smoke and they inhaled it and died in a Jonestown poison thing? Perhaps the checkoff thing that I am more closely tracking, and we already mentioned this in our breakdown of one and two, is when Kymer mentions the Jedi memory wipe. Don't wipe my memory. Whatever you do. And we're dealing with, what does OSHA know or remember? What does May know or remember? Who has holes holes in their memory about that evening. What have we suppressed?

Even when OSHA wakes up on the ship, she's like, what happened? Maybe it's just a state of disorientation.

Smoke inhalation.

But yeah, I'm not subscribing to the bunta cloud. Theory, I don't know how quickly a bunta gas dissipates from a room, but they still and Osha do walk through there. I don't know if that holds. I'm mostly basing that off of the moment where Osha is escaping through the tunnel and looks up through the great. It's a flash. There's a shake. The fortress shakes, we hear them all scream, and then they're dead and they're surrounded by some pieces of fallen rock. It just seems like someone used the force to kill them all or to sabotage the structure in a way that they all plummeted to their deaths or something. Something. It feels like Bunto would almost… I mean, maybe someone activates that, but that almost feels more passive. I think this is like, we are meant to believe that there was an active attack on this group of people. Whether that's because of control, is Torben still in his mind state, and that's part of why he's living in such a state of regret. Maybe it could be something like that, but it definitely seems like someone did something to those people.

Wasn't just the fire. I'm going to skip past, honestly, as conversation with Osha Destiny. Pull the thread, change everything. We've already talked to somebody about these concepts already. Mae takes this quick leap to murder, and as we've already discussed, we're a bit concerned that Mae, despite the fact that her eyeballs are not all blacked out, it feels like she's being... Especially the look she gave the fire. She looks like she's under some spell.

There was definitely something like the way the camera lingered on her staring at the flame that made you think, Oh, is she under an influence of some sort?

Then later, when we encounter her again at the bridge, she's walking slowly and groggily.

Yeah, and she's like, She's dead. There's no urgency of like, Holy shit, everything's up in flame.

She just seems really out of it.

It just feels like we don't have all the information. Something else is happening. Other characters. Again, how was Sol there so quickly? Clearly, because of the torban injury that we glimpsed later. Everyone was there. Why were they there? Also, before the staring at the flames trance, the discovery of the notebook that Osha was drawing in earlier. What do we see in there? We see the jedi crest. There's a little bit of a question of, is that just meant to show us to reinforce? Yeah, I do want to be a jedi. I do want to go live this life. This is what I want for myself. I've been doodling in my notebook like kids do when they're thinking about the thing they want. Is there some other, again, you're planting desires, ambitions, visions, dreams, aspirations that they're being put on these paths by other characters?

Here's my current best theory about what happened here. Okay. Coral, as we know, is pretty much team, let's just kill these jedi. Anaseya seems pretty anti that idea. But we should note that- Happy to take over her mind. Anaseya is in a different spot than the rest of the company. Yes.

Her body is discovered separately as they're making their way through. Right.

This is a light spoiler for official material that Lucasfilm has released, basically trailer material. So if people don't want to, if you don't want to hear that, skip ahead. But there is footage from a trailer of, I don't think it's Torben, I It's like, it's Kalnaka. It seems to be going ham with his lightsaber and both Saul and Torben, and it really seems to strike down on Torben. It seems like that's how Torben got his scar.

Perhaps Slacy's face opened and blinded him in one eye.

That's how Torben got his scar. So That if they take over the mind of Kalnaka, it reminds me a lot of like, Loki manipulating the Hulk in Avengers, and unleash this Woki jedi on his cohorts in the idea of like, Oh, well, then we won't be blamed for the death if they kill each other. But I like this idea, what if, again, wildly theorizing, because of the power of one, the power of two, the power of many. Maybe it took a group of them to take over the Woki. And in order to break that control, Indara, probably Indara, let's be real, to break that connection, that's the flash bang that kills all these women at once.

You were harming our friend. You were harming and controlling our colleague and our pal. We had to act to stop it. We thought we were doing the right thing. It went badly wrong.

We thought we were doing the right thing just being there in the first place.

That was what I was going to ask. I like that for accounting for in the moment, what is happening in this actively confounding fire sequence where it's like, how does the fire spread this quickly? Is somebody manipulating and powering it? How is it melting and crumbling? Stone? This is where the fact that we have that control room glitch earlier makes it seem like the facility is being primed to collapse. Why are they on Brandok in the first place? Is it just because It was like they're tracking force sensitives, and they discovered them here, and now they're here to recruit the kids. But then again, this gets to the... We're going to talk about this with Ben, but this gets to the Torben May interaction in episode 2. There's simply no way to read it other than Torben knew she made it out alive. And so do they know that in the moment?

I've been waiting for you, May. Is there a discovery later?

Here's a related question. Why is Soul. What is the hurry? Okay, he's rushing Osha out. I have another question. Actually, let me ask this one first, then I'll get back to why the rush. Very quickly, have to say it. Can't get through the pod without saying it. The characters have to start using the force. They have to.

Why can't Saul use the force to save both kids? Why can't he save both kids? That moment where he does grab her by the wrist in parallel to him using the force later. I would like to know why he can't use the force in that moment.

Because if there's an answer, which is like some block or control, okay.

It seems like there's an answer because when he does use the force on her in episode one to save her from the cliff, it's a very much like, I did it right this time. I was able to do it this time, and I couldn't do it the time before.

If it's like that, okay, it's part of the mystery, and all will be revealed, cool. If it's like Indara just didn't stop the blade going toward her chest, and Soul didn't catch both kids by using the force, that starts to feel compromising at a certain point. So again, I'll reserve judgment until we know more, but it's on my mind. In terms of why the rush, there's the like, all right, Soul picking her up and hurrying her out of the complex. I get it. It's collapsing all around them. Seems dangerous. That's not my question.

He rips her away from her mother. The haste with the farewell to your mother, you'd think you'd have a moment, but you really think you're in mortal peril.

Sure. I'll allow it. Why do they have to leave the planet so quickly?

Yeah, they're already on the way to Corazon.

Something is going on there. How many of them know? Does Soul even know the reason they had to go? He's like, Osh is like, Let's go back. She goes full Jack Shepard. We have to go back. He's like, We can't. No, we can't. Why? What are they running from?

I feel like I can connect the dots on so many things of what happened here.

To be clear, that mystery is all interesting.

Yeah, I feel like I- But it does make this episode a little… No, I feel like I can slot all these things except for Soul. He's actually the real question mark for me because he's I agree. He's running to save May and O'Sha. So was he not there when the flash bang happened?

And then- And maybe he's like, I want to save both kids because that's what we're here to do is to guide and nurture these kids. And some of the other characters have this like, No, what we need to do is split up a dangerous diet. We need to prevent the doctrine of the diet.

I wanted to say both of you, right? Yeah. Maybe they're like, actually, no. They're like, No, we're just going to dump May by the Bunta tree, actually. Soul says that May started a fire and that it killed and then he's cut off, significantly. It seems like he's telling the truth, right? He seemed very upset on her behalf. Is he lying or did they just not loops all into the bigger picture, or was it really all that straightforward?

It's more interesting to me, ultimately, if he is on a journey of discovery along with Osha. That's the way here. If he also has to learn uncomfortable truths about the jedi.

I think he doesn't know everything that happened, right? Yeah.

Which could then fuel that theory from the email a few minutes ago about a potential pull to the dark. If he loses, if his faith is shaken in the institution that he's devoted his life to.

Here are things that Sol has said about this incident. Yeah. Indara When I saved her from a terrible fire in Brenda, she saw us as our protectors. I mean, certainly true of Sol. I was there when her sister started a fire that killed her entire family. That doesn't seem true. Yeah. Oshia was a sole survivor. That's not true. But did Saul know that? I took her as my Padawan because he was like...

Right away.

You know? And then, I wanted to save you both. And then she says, What happened that night wasn't your fault, Saul. I've told you that. And he's like, You did. I've made my peace with what happened on Brenda.

Definitely not.

I know you have. That was a lesson you tried to teach me many times to accept what I'd lost. I wasn't a very good student. Perhaps I wasn't a very good teacher. Then this is the last bit, Look what revenge has done to your sister. I couldn't save her. When you were children, let me try now. Yeah, he's like, Let's take both. I'm just going to blame this all on Indara. I don't blame me on Indara. Because Torben's like, Oh, my face wound. Kamak is probably sedated because he's not even there. They probably have him just it locked up somewhere. And then Indara is like, Here's what we're going to do. I'm going to get a cosyne from Vern. I have my eye on Vern.

That all sounds right to me. I think then the question becomes, who else is involved? Or Or is it just an attempt to thwart something by the Jedi? This, again, we've been talking about this across many shows recently, like Hubris of Control idea, gone wrong. And then a cover up that leads to this festering, corrosive guilt and shame for some.Noodles and al for others. No noodles and al for others.

Let's make that our goal for the summer.

No noodlesandale@gmail. Com.

Anytime we're feeling crippled with guilt or shame or remorse or anything about the amount of work we have to do, I'll just look at you and I'll be like, noodles and beer. I love it. Noodles and beer for some. Okay. All right. Last thing I want to say, we get May. And again, looking for her sister in a way that does not feel like, I'll kill you, consistent with that version of May. So we get that. But I just want to shout out. If he turns out to know more about what happened and is lying to everyone, I'll be very disappointed in Saul. But the noise he makes when she reaches out to hug him him, and he says, You will never feel like this again, I promise.

Heart-wrenching. Devastation. Heart-wrenching. How long was May on her own? When did helmet face swoop in?

Is that where we're going with helmet face?

God, Good old... So many questions. I am excited.

Good old Silvertooth.

Silvertooth, yeah. The Stranger.

Venomouth. Venomouth.

Uneven episode, but one that I leave full of intrig. Yes, I to know what happened. With a ton of questions in an exciting way. Not one that necessarily means this was a perfectly structured or executed episode. But I am as enticed as I was heading into the season, honestly, to learn what awaits. I can't wait for next week. Can't wait for the back half of the season. We got five episodes left, and that doesn't sound like a lot, but at the pace at which the episode's moving, it feels like a good amount of time to give us some clarity here. I mean, some Star Wars shows are only six episodes, so if you think of it that From a certain point of view, we have a lot more to go.

Let's go now to our chat with Ben Lindberg. Ben. Ben.

Hello.

Ben, welcome to a video podcast.

I know. Now that we're on video, do you think I could get some blue hologram filter for me when I join you for these segments?

We have the budget for that. Only if you then crop up on this table right here in the center of the table. I love that.

Great idea. Guys, can we have that ready by next week? Shoot on the volume. Thanks.

Yeah, let's just get right on top of that. Thanks so much. Ben, this is not a very lore-heavy episode. No. But you had an idea of what you might be able to talk about that connects to what went down on Brenda. What do you want to talk about today?

Yeah, if you're not listening or if you are listening, not watching, just picture me serenely sitting cross-legged in the air floating a few feet above because we're talking about the barash vau today.

Your hair looks much better than Torben's hair. Oh, thank you.

Yeah, the barash vau takes a toll on your hairline, as we saw with the progression. I know you're on Wig Watch, But we're going back to episode 2 here. This is when it was first mentioned in the show, the barash vau that Master Torben took, and he was meditating silently for 10 plus years. Just a passing mention, the first mention we've seen on screen of the Brash Vow. But I thought it was worth going back to this this week because we've had some new developments with Master Torben or the future Master Torben, who's still Padawan Torben. I think maybe the lore behind the Brash Vow could clue us in, perhaps, to what's going on with these Jedi. What did they get up to when we weren't watching them? I will tell you a little bit about the Brash Vow, which dates back just several years in the canon, and it was created by the writer prolific Star Wars author, Charles Soul. And he actually posted about this on Instagram after the acolyte episode because he was delighted to see his creation on screen. I will read you his definition from Instagram. Not sure Instagram is considered canon, but this more or less matches up with what you'll find elsewhere.

The Vow is taken by Jedi who feel they have done something deeply wrong, particularly a misinterpretation of what they believe the Force wanted them to do. And while they don't leave the order, they decide to sit and listen to the Force until they better understand themselves and what it's saying. So the first time this was mentioned in canon comes from 2017, the Darth Vader comics run, which was written by soul. This is the Darth Vader comic that picks up right after Revenge of the Smith. So he's still settling into the Seth and the suit. One of his first tasks given to him by Darsidius is to go get a a Kyber crystal so that he can make a red blade because he can't use his old one. So the way that he's supposed to do that is to track down a Jedi and get their lightsaber and then bleed the Kyber crystal to turn it red. The only problem is they just killed most of the Jedi. So he's like, How am I going to find a Jedi to take a Kyber crystal from them? And his solution is to look for a Jedi who was taking the barash vow when order 66 struck.

So this is like your phone is on airplane mode or something, basically. And then you land and you get a bunch of notifications. And in this case, the notification is like, Oh, all my friends are dead. So that sucks. Tough one. But the reason he wanted to look for someone who had taken the barash bow is he's like, Well, I'll take them by surprise because they don't know everyone's dead. They've been out of the loop. And so he goes to this droid that has a backup, a record of where all the jedi were before order 66. And Vader says, Hey, send me a list. Any jedi pursuing barash has sworn to refrain from activities related to the order. Complete disengagement from anything but the force. It is a type of penance. While a barash taker would have felt the purge, they would not have allowed themselves to respond to it or take action of any kind.

It's like a thousand voices cried out and you were like, and- I just continued to sit there.

When about my day?

Yeah.

The droid him that you're going to have to narrow it down a bit because there have been 14,000 Jedi who have taken the Barash Vow in the Archives of the Order. This is something that is not in the canon, but Charles Soer clarified on Instagram, again, which is this is named after a jedi named Barash Sylvain, but apparently people had been doing the Barash Vow for many years before that, and it just got named after her. So this goes way back, and it also continued after Barash Sylvain. So he He shows up, Vader, and he finds this jedi who's been hanging out, taking the Barash Vau, and fights him, and kills him, and gets the Kybra Crystal mission accomplished, et cetera. So that's the first time that this shows up in canon. The jedi's name is Kyraq Infila. Then it shows up in the High Republic a few years later in another comic written by Charles Soul. And some people have asked me since the acolyte started, where How do I start with the acolyte? How do I get into this? Where should I start? And much like obi-1 says, the jundlin' waser not to be traveled lightly, the high republic also not to be traveled lightly either, as I discovered when I was prepping for the acolyte and realize just how much time it would take.

You need to basically barash bow to catch up with the high Republic. So you got to have a lot of time on your hands to read all of it. But if you just want to dabble, if you want to dip in with something where you don't need to know what else is going on, there's a great four-part miniseries called The Blade, written by Soul, that ended last year. And this comic gives us the origin of the barash bow and tells us about this jedi named Porter Angle and another jedi, Barash Sylvaine, and what led to Barash taking this bow. This is hundreds of years even before the acolyte. They went to a planet far from everything else, out of contact, at the distant reaches of the Republic, and their Jedi, they're trying to settle a dispute. And Barash's great attribute as a Jedi was that she could listen to the Force and know what to do and know who was lying and who was telling the truth. But in this particular case, she allowed her own personal sympathies and biases to sway her from hearing the message of the Force. So she's settling this dispute, and she sympathized with this monarch who told this story about a young family in trouble and a child in danger of being taken from her parents.

That's the origin story of Barash. She said, Yeah, this sounds right. She wasn't really listening to the Force. Because of that, she made a mistake. She vouched for this fake story. She tells Porter Enkel to engage, and there's this big battle, and a lot of people die, and she feels very bad about it. After the battle, she says, This is my fault. I told you to escalate, to confront the mercenaries directly. I did that because I believed what Princess cicatra told me, a story about a young family in trouble, a child in danger of being taken from her parents. I did not listen to the Force. I listened to myself, my own history, clouded my vision. I was certain and I was wrong, and now so many are dead. And so she says, I cannot trust myself. I cannot allow you or any other Jedi to trust me, not until I know I am hearing the Force clearly again. So she's not leaving the order, she's just disengaging. And Porter goes back to the council and tells them about this. And Yoda characterizes it as she's uncertain. She's lost her feel for the force, essentially.

So that is usually what causes the barash bow. It's not just a minor mistake. It's not just, Oops, I've screwed up. Maybe I'll meditate and say some, Force our fathers to make up for this and do some penance. This is a serious mistake that calls into question everything know about the force and your connection to the force. There's really only a handful of examples that we know. There's one other where a jedi was essentially cut off from the force because of contact with the Drangier, this species of carnivorous plants also in the High Republic. To get back in touch with the Force, he had to do the barash vau for a while. It's extreme circumstances. One of the only other Jedi we know who took the Barash Val, our boy, obi-wan Kenobi on Tattooine. There's a brief mentioned in a book from a few years ago about the Skywalkers, Skywalker: A Family at War, that refers to him as a practitioner of the barash vau on Tattooine. So clearly, cutting up sand whales doesn't break the vow. You don't actually have to be silent and motionless and floating in the air.

What about taking a side quest adventure with a young Princess Leia?

Yeah, that seems to me like that might be verging on breaking the vow. So It's not clear from the mention when exactly he took the vow, whether he could take a hiatus from the vow. Maybe it was after that little side quest. But at some point, obi-1 took the vow, too. That's the circumstance that would lead you to do this, because we know he's scarred, not literally, I guess. Anakein is quite scarred by that experience, but he's scarred emotionally, certainly, by what went wrong with his Padawan, his friend, his brother. So he disconnected for a while. He just unplugged, basically, from the force. That's what Torben is doing here.

Yeah. Would you say, breaking into a sacred ritual that a bunch of women are doing- To steal a child? Trying to lure away their children and then later killing all of them? Does that qualify for the barashmaal?

Maybe? I would say so, yeah. That might satisfy the criteria. Okay.

We just wiped out a whole coven. Yeah.

I mean, merely Slicing the platform and interrupting the ceremony, that might not be barashworthy. And so there's clearly something else that's happening here.

What about paring that perm with the Padawan braid? Does that qualify you for the barashmaal? It's a bold look. It's quite a lot. It is.

Because we know that Torben did not have his wound at the start of episode 3, and then we see him blurry out of focus in the background, and he has been wounded, he has been slashed, perhaps blinded in that eye, something happened here while we were unaware, while we were just seeing events from OSHA's perspective. I think maybe the history, the precedent here for the barash vau clues us to what might have happened here, because if we look at that canonical example that it's named after, the Barash Sylvaine example, this is a case where she let her sympathies, her preconceptions sway her and blind her, not literally, but figuratively speaking, to the truth of the situation. That could be happening with the Jedi here with Torben. Obviously, it seems like they have some suspicions about the dark side usage that's going on here. They have perhaps prejudged the coven, and they may be apt to leap to conclusions about what they are trading these children to do, what exactly this coven of witches practices, and maybe that puts them on edge. Maybe Maybe that makes them do something that in retrospect, they should not have done.

In fairness to Torben, he did get his mind briefly taken over, which maybe would not predispose you to- I was going to ask if there was any fine print on what if somebody else took over your mind right before you did the thing that made you question your ability to parts the truth. Mitigating circumstance, for sure.

I want to ask you one more follow-up. We've already been doing some speculation on this podcast about what we think might have happened. But in terms of the conspiracy and the cover up of all of this, because when May goes to offer him absolution, which is what we're calling it, and he not only says, Forgive me, we thought we were doing the right thing, he also said, I've been waiting for you, May. So what's your thought on what did Torben... Because I'm inclined, but then again, I'm biased in his favor, to believe that Saul genuinely thinks that May did not survive all of that. But do you think Torben, and I mean, probably Indara, let's be real, knows that may have survived?

Certainly would seem that way. He's not surprised to see her. Clearly, the Vau is not really working so well for him. It doesn't seem like he's made a lot of progress in his self-therapizing over the past decade here because he's pretty quick to take that poison. For him, for some of these Jedi, It's about working your way back to the force and regaining your good judgment. For him, it seems like it might just be about shutting down that he's decided that he's not going to find his way back. Whatever he did was unforgivable. If anything, he's just taking himself out of circulation until may arrives to take her vengeance or offer him penance, however we want to phrase this. But it could be that there was manipulation going on here, that there's another party, that the Seth, maybe those mysterious cloaked figures at the ascension ceremony, maybe they prodded the Jedi into doing something here. Maybe it was Mother Coral, whose whereabouts are still unknown, but clearly resented the intrusion. Maybe someone was goading the Jedi into something that they were predisposed to do. Again, because they're coming into this not just reacting and listening and feeling, but thinking that they know best, that they of what's happening here, even though they claim that they thought the planet was uninhabited, which seems dubious.

What were you doing there? If that was the case, just taking the scenic route.

That's a real telebevehvi moment to me.

What about the I do not take children. What about that one? Thank you, Ben. That was an incredible lore download. I really appreciate it.

Wonderful as always.

Thanks. It's nice that there's a little bit of high Republic linkage here because even though this is technically set in the high Republic era, just right at the tail end of it, there's not really a lot that links back to the earlier high Republic material, if you have taken the brush bow and dive deep into all the material that's out there. So this is a nice little nod, a little reward for those who did the reading.

Your homework matters, Ben. My homework paid off.

It did.

It did. Brilliant. Thank you.Thank.

You.thank you.Thank you.Thanks, Ben.

Let's just dip a toe into Theory Corner. Okay.

This is the way.

This is the way. This whole thing was Theory Corner, but I just want to mention something. After David Hairwood, who I love.

Estes from homeland.

Sure. Fake Barack Obama, Dr. Who, whatever you prefer. Wonderful British actor. There was a casting announcement that he joined the cast at late in the game. Not a really official one, but a very well-sourced one.

This person's in the show. Yeah. Okay.

What would David Harwood be doing? I do not think he is... What did you say, Venommouth? I think we feel pretty confident we know who that is, but what that introduces me here in Theory Corner, where all theories are welcome, is this idea that is Venomouth, the stranger, is he the apprentice and Hairwood's the master?

Whether it's Hairwood or anyone else, that feels most likely to me that if our... Because he's young. Yeah, if our chimere theory is right. Let me just say one more thing. It's a flashback episode, so it makes sense that he's not in it.

You missed Manny.

I missed Manny. Yeah, me too. I did. We got the taste of what Manny injected into the show, and to be deprived of that in the next episode, I actually really felt his absence. So again, we had a lot of wonderful performances.

Let's never do that again, Echalite.

Echalite. It feels likely to me that Kymer will be revealed as Venomouth, and he will be revealed as the apprentice of a sinflord.

Whether it's David Hairwood, whether that casting rumor is false or whatever, I was just like, oh. Interesting. That's another player on the board that I hadn't considered. Okay.

Wigwatch? Last but certainly not least.

Certainly not. Wigwatch.

Do you wear wigs? Oh, man.

I just need you in this moment with me, Mallory Rubin, to I would like you to shout out your favorite flashback wig.

I think that Soul's hair looked the best, but I got the biggest kick out of Torben's. Torben's. Yeah, I got the biggest kick out of Torben's wig, which we had seen this wig in the trailer because there's the shot of him in the trance. But what you couldn't really tell in the trailer- Wait, I'm sorry.

Can you do this? Yeah. Thank you. This is a video podcast now, so I just needed to... Yeah. Okay. Thank you.

What you couldn't really tell in the trailer, or at least what didn't... I'm sure it was visible, but it didn't catch my eye as much in real-time, was the Padawan braids.

The braids plus the curves. Yeah, the combo of the Padawan breed and the perm.

Wonderful stuff. Delightful.

On the plus side, Jody Turner-Smith's hair looked...

Everything beautiful. Resplendent.

Iconic. All right, that has been Wigwatch TM with Molly Rubin and Joanna Robinson and flashback Bangs TM. This podcast is made not just by the power of one, the power of two, by the power of many. All right, so of course, we have to thank...

Great stuff. That got me.

Oh, ma'am. Steve Allman for his long distance cause that we heard here in the studio. Wonderful stuff. Thank you, Steve. Everything else that you do. Arjuna Ramga Pal.

Always.

For everything that he has done for me here today and for you and for everyone listening at home. Jomi and dinner on the social. Wonderful stuff always from Jomi. Always. Thank you to Benjamin Lindberg for joining us for the Lore segment. Yeah. Thank you to John Richter, our new name.

John, welcome to the The cast list. Thank you. Power of many. Welcome to the house of our John Richter.

You will be able to listen to us.

Poor John, what a first experience with our show. Like a 97 hour in studio recording where we were both locked out of the studio mid-recording, separately from each other.

It only took us an hour to figure out that we didn't want to have any headphones on. Great stuff. Wonderful time. Love this. Smooth sailing. Mallory, when is the next time that people can both hear and watch us?

Sunday night, the minute. Dare I say the second. The very second. The instant that the House of the Dragon Season 2 premiere concludes. Head to Spotify, the RingerVerse YouTube channel, wherever you get your podcast, because we will be there with Chris Ryan for Talk the Thrones. Sunday night.

Pals, there's a whole set. It's a whole thing. It's a whole production.

There are candles.

Goblets.

Yeah, there are goblets.

Yeah, they're goblets. It's a whole thing. So please tune in for Talk the Thrones. We'll see you then. Bye.