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Go beyond the headlines with the MSNBC app. Watch your favorite shows live. Get analysis from live blogs to in-depth essays and the latest updates on the 2024 election. Visit msnbc. Com/app to download. Msnbc's special coverage of the presidential debate between Kamala Harris and Donald Trump begins now.

It is 9:00 PM on the East Coast.

We are 60 seconds away from the presidential debate between Vice President Kamala Harris and Donald Trump. It is hosted by ABC News, moderated by David Muir and Lindsay Davis. The two candidates have never met face-to-face, and of course, the differences between them couldn't be more stark. If elected, Donald Trump would be the oldest person ever inaugurated to the US presidency. He has spent the last few days threatening to imprison his political enemies. And being derided, even in very mainstream press, for being just plainly incoherent. Vice President Kamala Harris is a former prosecutor and US Senator and Attorney General. She has had lightning in a bottle, running an as yet short and highly energized campaign centered around the theme of freedom. We all know at this point that the stakes could absolutely not be higher. Somebody says some version of that in every presidential race, but this year we all know deeply in our guts that that is true. Here now is the presidential debate.

Good evening. I'm David Muir, and thank you for joining us for tonight's ABC News presidential debate. We want to welcome viewers watching on ABC and around the world tonight. Vice President Kamala Harris and President Donald Trump are just moments away from taking the stage in this unprecedented race for President.

I'm Lindsay Davis. Tonight's meeting could be the most consequential event of their campaigns, with Election Day now less than two months away. For Vice President Kamala Harris, this is her first debate since President Biden withdrawn from the race on July 21st. Of course, that decision followed his debate against President Donald Trump in June. Since then, this race has taken on an entirely new dynamic.

That brings us to the rules of tonight's debate, 90 minutes with two commercial breaks. No topics or questions have been shared with the campaigns. The candidates will have two minutes to answer questions, and this is the clock. That's what they'll be seeing, two minutes for rebuttals and one minute for follow-ups, clarifications or responses. Their microphones will only be turned on when it's their turn to speak. No pre-written notes allowed. There is no audience here tonight in this hall at the National Constitution Center. This is an intimate setting for two candidates who have never met.

President Trump won the coin toss. He chose to deliver the final closing statement of the evening. Vice President Harris selected the podium to the right.

Let's now welcome the candidates to the stage, Vice President Kamala Harris and President Donald Trump.

Kamala Harris. It's a good debate. How did you see. Have fun. Thank you.

Welcome to you both. It's wonderful to have you. It's an honor to have you both here tonight.

Good evening. We are looking forward to a spirited and thoughtful debate.

So let's get started. I We're going to begin tonight with the issue that voters repeatedly say is their number one issue, and that is the economy and the cost of living in this country. Vice President Harris, you and President Trump were elected four years ago, and your opponent on the stage here tonight often asks his supporters, Are you better off than you were four years ago? When it comes to the economy, do you believe Americans are better off than they were four years ago?

I was raised as a middle class kid, and I am actually the only person on this stage who has a plan that is about lifting up the middle class and working people of America. I believe in the ambition, the aspirations, the dreams of the American people. That is why I imagine and have actually a plan to build what I call an opportunity economy, because here's the thing. We know that we have a shortage of homes and housing, and the cost of housing is too expensive for far too many people. We know that young families need support to raise their children, and I intend on extending a tax cut for those families of $6,000, which is the largest child tax credit that we have given in a long time, so that those young families can afford to buy a crib, buy a car seat, buy clothes for their children. My passion, one of them is small businesses. My mother raised my sister and me, but there was a woman who helped raise us. We call her our second mother. She was a small business owner. I love our small businesses. My plan is to give a $50,000 tax deduction to startup small businesses, knowing they are part of the backbone of America's economy.

My opponent, on the other hand, his plan is to do what he has done before, which is to provide a tax cut for billionaires and big corporations, which will result in $5 trillion to America's deficit. My opponent has a plan that I call the Trump's sales tax, which would be a 20% tax on everyday goods that you rely on to get through the month. Economists have said that that Trump sales tax would actually result for middle-class families in about $4,000 more a year because of his policies and his ideas about what should the backs of middle-class people paying for tax cuts for billionaires.

President Trump, I'll give you two minutes.

First of all, I have no sales tax. That's an incorrect statement. She knows that we're doing tariffs on other countries. Other countries are going to finally, after 75 years, pay us back for all that we've done for the world, and the tariff will be substantial in some cases. I took in billions and billions of dollars, as you know, from China. In fact, they never took the tariff off because it was so much money they If they can't, it would totally destroy everything that they've set out to do. They're taking in billions of dollars from China and other places. They've left the tariffs on. When I had it, I had tariffs, and yet I had no inflation. Look, we've had a terrible economy because inflation has, which is really known as a country Buster, it breaks up countries. We have inflation like very few people have ever seen before, probably the worst in our nation's history. We were at 21%, but that's being generous because many things are 50, 60, 70, and 80% higher than they were just a few years ago. This has been a disaster for people, for the middle class, but for every class.

On top of that, we have millions of people pouring into our country from prisons and jails, from mental institutions and insane asylums. They're coming in and they're taking jobs that are occupied right now by African-Americans and Hispanics, and also unions. Unions are going to be affected very soon. You see what's happening. You see what's happening with towns throughout the United States. You look at Springfield, Ohio. You look at Aurora in Colorado. They are taking over the towns. They're taking over buildings. They're going in violently. These are the people that she and Biden led into our country, and they're destroying our country. They're dangerous. They're at the highest level of criminality, and we have to get them out. We have to get them out fast. I created one of the greatest economies in the history of our country. I'll do it again and even We are going to get to immigration and border security during this debate, but I would like to let Vice President Harris respond on the economy here.

Well, I would love to. Let's talk about what Donald Trump left us. Donald Trump left us the worst unemployment since the Great Depression. Donald Trump left us the worst public health epidemic in a century. Donald Trump left us the worst attack on our democracy since the Civil War. What we have done is clean up Donald Trump's mess. What we have done, and what I intend to do, is build on what we know are the aspirations and the hopes of the American people. But I'm going to tell you all in this debate tonight, you're going to hear from the same old tired playbook, a bunch of lies, grievances, and name calling. What you're going to hear tonight is a detailed and dangerous plan called Project 2025 that the former President intends on implementing if he were elected to gain. I believe very strongly that the American people want a President who understands the importance of bringing us together knowing we have so much more in common than what separates us. I What does it mean to you to be a President for all Americans.

President Trump will give you a minute here to respond.

Number one, I have nothing to do, as you know, and as she knows better than anyone, I have nothing to do with Project 2025. That's out there. I haven't read it. I don't want to read it purposely. I'm not going to read it. This was a group of people that got together. They came up with some ideas, I guess, some good, some bad, but it makes no difference. I have nothing to do. Everybody knows I'm an open book. Everybody knows what I'm going to do, cut taxes very substantially and create a great economy like I did before. We had the greatest economy. We got hit with a pandemic, and the pandemic was not since 1917, where 100 million people died. Has there been anything like it? We did a phenomenal job with the pandemic. We handed them over a country where the economy and where the stock market was higher than it was before the pandemic came in. Nobody's ever seen anything like it. We made ventilators for the entire world. We got gowns, we got masks. We did things that nobody thought possible. People give me They give me credit for rebuilding the military.

They give me credit for a lot of things, but not enough credit for the great job we did with the pandemic. But the only jobs they got were bounceback jobs. These were jobs bounceback, and it bouncedback, and it went to their benefit. But I was the one that created They know it, and so does everybody else.

Vice President Harris, I'll let you respond.

Donald Trump has no plan for you. When you look at his economic plan, it's all about tax breaks for the richest people. I am offering what I describe as an opportunity economy, and the best economists in our country, if not the world, have reviewed our relative plans for the future of America. What Goldman Sachs has said is that Donald Trump's plan would make the economy worse. Mine would strengthen the economy. What the Wharton School has said is Donald Trump's plan would actually explode the deficit. Sixteen Nobel Laureates have described his economic plan as something that would increase inflation, and by the middle of next year would invite a recession. You just have to look at where we are and where we stand on the issues. I'd invite you to know that Donald Trump actually has no plan for because he is more interested in defending himself than he is in looking out for you.

That's just a sound bite. They gave her that to say, Look, I went to the Wharton School of Finance, and many of those professors, the top professors, think my plan is a brilliant plan. It's a great plan. It's a plan that's going to bring up our worth, our value as a country. It's going to make people want to be able to go and work and create jobs and create a lot of good solid money for our country. Just to finish off, she doesn't have a plan. She copied Biden's plan, and it's like four sentences, like run, spot, run. Four sentences that are just, Oh, we'll try and lower taxes. She doesn't have a plan. Take a look at her plan. She doesn't have a plan.

Mr. President, I do want to drill down on something you both brought up. The vice President brought up your tariffs. You responded, and let's drill down on this because your plan is what she calls essentially a national sales tax. Your proposal calls for tariffs, as you pointed out here, on foreign imports across the board. You recently said that you might double your plan, imposing tariffs up to 20% on goods coming into this country. As you know, many economists say that with tariffs at that level, costs are then passed on to the consumer. Vice President Harris has argued it'll mean higher prices on gas, food, clothing, medication, arguing it costs the typical family nearly $4,000 a year. Do you believe Americans can afford higher prices because of tariffs?

They're not going to have higher prices. What's going to happen who's going to have higher prices is China and all of the countries that have been ripping us off for years. I charged, I was the only president ever. China was paying us hundreds of billions of dollars, and so were other countries. If she doesn't like them, they should have gone out and they should have immediately cut the tariff, but those tariffs are there three and a half years now under their administration. We are going to take in billions of dollars, hundreds of billions of dollars. I had no inflation, virtually no inflation. They had the highest inflation, perhaps in the history of our country, because I've never seen a worse period of time. People can't go out and buy cereal or bacon or eggs or anything else. The people of our country are absolutely dying with what they've done. They've destroyed the economy. All you have to do is look at a poll. The polls say 80 and 85 and even 90% that the Trump economy was great, that their economy was terrible.

Vice President Harris, I do want to ask for your response. You heard what the President said there because the Biden The administration did keep a number of the Trump tariffs in place. How do you respond?

Well, let's be clear that the Trump administration resulted in a trade deficit, one of the highest we've ever seen in the history of America. He invited trade wars. You want to talk about his deal with China, what he ended up doing is under Donald Trump's presidency, he ended up selling American chips to China to help them improve and modernize their military, basically really sold us out when a policy about China should be in making sure the United States of America wins the competition for the 21st century, which means focusing on the details of what that requires, focusing on relationships with our allies, focusing on investing in American-based technology so that we win the race on AI, on quantum computing, focusing on what we need to do to support America's workforce so that we don't end up on the short end of the stick in terms of workers' rights. But what Donald Trump did, let's talk about this, with COVID, is he actually thanked President Xi for what he did during COVID. Look at his tweet. Thank you, President Xi, exclamation point when we know that she was responsible for lacking and not giving us transparency about the origins of COVID.

President Trump, I'll let you respond.

First of all, they bought their chips from Taiwan. We hardly make chips anymore because of philosophies like they have and policies like they have. I don't say her because she has no policy. Everything that she believed three years ago and four years ago is out the window. She's going to my philosophy now. In fact, I was going to send her a MAGA hat. She's gone to my philosophy, but if she ever got elected, she'd change it, and it will be the end of our country. She's a Marxist. Everybody knows she's a Marxist. Her father's a Marxist professor in economics, and he taught her well. But when you look at what she's done to our country, and when you look at these millions and millions of people that are pouring into our country monthly, where it's, I believe, 21 million people, not the 15 that people say, and I think it's a lot higher than the 21, that's bigger than New York State pouring in. Just look at what they're doing to our country. They're criminals. Many of these people coming in are criminals. That's bad for our economy, too. You mentioned before, we'll talk about immigration later.

Well, bad immigration is That's the worst thing that can happen to our economy. They have, and she has, destroyed our country with policy that's insane. Almost policy that you'd say they have to hate our country.

President Trump. Thank you. Lindsay.

I want to turn to the issue of abortion. President Trump, you've often touted that you were able to kill Roe v Wade. Last year, you said that you were proud to be the most pro-life president in American history. Then last month, you said that your administration would be great for women and reproductive rights. In your home state of Florida, you surprised many with regard to your six-week abortion ban because you initially had said that it was too short. You said, I'm going to be voting that we need more than six weeks. But then the very next day, you reversed course and said you would vote to support the six-week ban. Vice President Harris says that women shouldn't trust you on the issue of abortion because you've changed your position so many times. Therefore, why should they trust you?

The reason I'm doing that vote is because the plan is, as you know, the vote is, they have abortion in the ninth month. They even have, and you can look at the governor of West Virginia, the previous governor of West Virginia, not the current governor, is doing an excellent job. But the governor before, he said, The baby will be born, and we will decide what to do with the baby. In other words, we'll execute the baby. That's why I did that, because that predominates, because they're radical. The Democrats are radical in that. Her vice presidential pick, which I think was a horrible pick, by the way, for our country, because he is really out of it. But her vice presidential pick says, Abortion in the ninth month is absolutely fine. He also says, Execution after birth. It's Execution, no longer abortion. Because the baby is born, is okay. And that's not okay with me, hence the vote. But what I did is something for 52 years, they've been trying to get Roe v Wade into the States. And through the genius and heart and strength of six Supreme Court justices, we were able to do that.

Now, I believe in the exceptions for rape, incest, and life of the mother. I believe strongly in it. Ronald Reagan did also. 85% of Republicans do. Exceptions. Very important. But we were able to get it, and now states are voting on it. For the first time, you're going to see, look, this is an issue that's torn our country apart for 52 years. Every legal scholar, every Democrat, every Republican, liberal, conservative, they all wanted this issue to be brought back to the states where the people could vote. And that's what happened. Now, Ohio, the vote was somewhat liberal. Kansas, the vote was somewhat liberal, much more liberal than people would have thought. But each individual state is voting. It's the vote of the people now. It's not tied up in the federal government. I did a great service in doing it. It took courage to do it. And the Supreme Court had great courage in doing it. I give tremendous credit to those six justices.

There is no state in this country where it is legal to kill a baby after it's born. Madam Vice President, I want to get your response to President Trump.

Well, as I said, you're going to hear a bunch of lies, and that's not actually a surprising fact. Let's understand how we got here. Donald Trump hand-selected three members of the United States Supreme Court with the intention that they would undo the protections of Roe v Wade, and they did exactly as he intended. Now, in over 20 states, there are Trump abortion bans, which make it criminal for a doctor or nurse to provide health care. In one state, it provides prison for life. Trump abortion bans that make no exception even for rape and incest, which understand what that means. A survivor of a crime of violation to their body does not have the right to make a decision about what happens to their body That is immoral. One does not have to abandon their faith or deeply held beliefs to agree. The government, and Donald Trump certainly, should not be telling a woman what to do with her body. I have talked with women around our country. You want to talk about this is what people wanted? Pregnant women who want to carry a pregnancy to term suffering from a miscarriage, being denied care in an emergency room because the healthcare providers are afraid they might go to jail, and she's bleeding out in a car in the parking lot.

She didn't want that? Her husband didn't want that? A 12 or 13-year-old survivor of incest? Being forced to carry a pregnancy to term? They don't want that. I pledge to you, when Congress passes a bill to put back in place the protections of Roe v Wade as President of the United States, I will proudly sign it to law. But understand, if Donald Trump were to be reelected, he will sign a national abortion ban. Understand, in his project, 2025, there would be a national abortion, a monitor that would be monitoring your pregnancies, your miscarriages. I think the American people believe that certain freedoms, in particular the freedom to make decisions about one's own body, should not be made by the government.

Thank you, Vice President Harris.

Well, there she goes again. It's a lie. I'm not signing a ban, and there's no reason to sign a ban because we've gotten what everybody wanted, Democrats, Republicans, and everybody else, and every legal scholar wanted it to be brought back into the states, and the states are voting, and it may take a little time, but for 52 years, this issue has torn our country apart, and they wanted it back in the States. I did something that nobody thought was possible. The States are now voting. What she says is an absolute lie. As far as the abortion ban, no, I'm not in favor of abortion ban, but it doesn't matter because this issue has now been taken over by the states.

Would you veto a national abortion ban if it came to your desk?

Well, I won't have to because, again, two things. Number one, she said she'll go back to Congress, she'll never get the vote. It's impossible for her to get the vote, especially now with the essentially 50/50 in both Senate and the House. She's not going to get the vote. She can't get the vote. She won't even close to it. So it's just talk. You know what it reminds me of when they said they're going to get student loans terminated and it ended up being a total catastrophe? The student loans. And then her, I think probably her boss, if you call him a boss, he spends all his time on the beach. But look, her boss went out and said, We'll do it again. We'll do it a different way. And he went out, got rejected again by the Supreme Court. So all these students got taunted with this whole thing about this whole idea. And how unfair that would have been, part of the reason they lost, to the millions and millions of people that had to pay off their student loans. They didn't get it for free. But they were saying it's the same way that they talked about that, that they talk about abortion.

But if I could just get a yes or no, because you're running me, JD Vance has said that you would veto if you did come to your desk.

Well, I didn't discuss it with JD in all fairness. Jd, and I don't mind if he has a certain view, but I think he was speaking for me, but I really didn't. Look, We don't have to discuss it because she'd never be able to get it. Just like she couldn't get student loans, they couldn't get student loans. They didn't even come close to getting student loans. They taunted young people and a lot of other people that had loans. They can never get this approved. It doesn't matter what she says about going to Congress. So wonderful. Let's go to Congress. Do it. But the fact is that for years, they wanted to get it out of Congress and out of the federal government. We did something that everybody said couldn't be done. Now, you have a vote of the people on abortion.

Vice President Harris, I want to give you your time to respond, but I do want to ask, would you support any restrictions on a woman's right to an abortion?

I absolutely support reinstating the protections of Roe v Wade. As you rightly mentioned, nowhere in America is a woman carrying a pregnancy to term and asking for an abortion. That is not happening. It's insulting to the women of America. And understand what has been happening under Donald Trump's abortion bans. Couples who pray and dream of having a family are being denied IVF treatments. What is happening in our country? Working people, working women who are working one or two jobs who can barely afford childcare as it is, have to travel to another state to get on a plane sitting next to strangers, to go and get the healthcare she needs, barely can afford to do it. And what you are putting her through is unconscionable. The people of America have not... The majority of Americans believe in a woman's right to make decisions about her own body. And that is why in every state where This issue has been on the ballot in red and blue states both. The people of America have voted for freedom.

Vice President.

Excuse me, I have to respond. Another lie. It's another lie. I have been a leader on IVF, which is fertilization. Ivf, I have been a leader. In fact, when they got a very negative decision on IVF from the Alabama courts, I saw the people of Alabama and the legislature, two days later, voted it in. I've been a leader on it. They know that, and everybody else knows it. I have been a leader on fertilization IVF. The other thing, you should ask, will she allow abortion in the eighth month, ninth month, seventh month? Come on. Okay, would Can you answer that? Why don't you ask for that question?

That's the problem. Why don't you answer the question, would you veto?

Because under Roe v Wade, you could do abortions in the seventh month, the eighth month, the ninth month, and probably after birth. Just look at the former governor of Virginia. The governor of Virginia said, We put the baby aside, and then we determine what we want to do with the baby.

President Trump, thank you.

We're going to turn now to immigration and border security. We know it's an issue that's important to Republicans, Democrats, voters across the board in this country. Vice President Harris, you were tasked by President Biden with getting to the root causes of migration from Central America. We know that illegal border crossings reached a record high in the Biden administration. This past June, President Biden imposed tough new asylum restrictions. We know the numbers since then have dropped significantly. But my question to you tonight is, why did the administration wait until six months before the election to act? And would you have done anything differently from President Biden on this?

I'm the only person on this stage who has prosecuted transnational criminal organizations for the trafficking of guns, drugs, and human beings. Let me say that the United States Congress, including some of the most conservative members of the United States Senate, came up with a border security bill which I supported. That bill would have put 1,500 more border agents on the border to help those folks who are working there right now over time, trying to do their job. It would have allowed us to stem the flow of fentanyl coming into the United States. I know there are so many families watching tonight who have been personally affected by the surge of fentanyl in our country. That bill would have put more resources to allow us to prosecute transnational criminal organizations for trafficking in guns, drugs, and human beings. But you know what happened to that bill? Donald Trump got on the phone, called up some folks in Congress, and said, Kill the bill. You know why? Because he'd prefer to run on a problem instead of fixing a problem. And understand this comes at a time where the people of our country actually need a leader who engages in solutions, who actually addresses the problems at hand.

But what we have in the former President is someone who would prefer to run on a problem instead of fixing a problem. And I'll tell you something, he's going to talk about immigration a lot tonight, even when it's not the subject that is being raised. And I'm going to actually do something really unusual, and I'm going to invite you to attend one of Donald Trump's rallies because it's a really interesting thing to watch. You will see during the course of his rallies, he talks about fictional characters like Hannibal Lector. He will talk about when mills cause cancer. What you will also notice is that people start leaving his rallies early out of exhaustion and boredom. I will tell you, the one thing you will not hear him talk about is you. You will not hear him talk about your needs, your dreams, and your desires. I'll tell you, I believe you deserve a president who actually puts you first, and I pledge to you that I will.

Vice President Harris, thank you. President Trump, on that point, I want to get your response. Well, I would like to respond. Let me just ask, though, why did you try to kill that bill, and successfully so, that would have put thousands of additional agents and officers on the border.

First, let me respond to the rallies. She said people start leaving. People don't go to her rally. There's no reason to go. The people that do go, she's bussing them in and paying them to be there and then showing them in a different light. She can't I'm going to talk about that. People don't leave my rallies. We have the biggest rallies, the most incredible rallies in the history of politics. That's because people want to take their country back. Our country is being lost. We're a failing nation. It happened three and a half years ago, and What's going on here, you're going to end up in World War III, just to go into another subject, what they have done to our country by allowing these millions and millions of people to come into our country and look at what's happening to the towns all over the United United States. A lot of towns don't want to talk. It's not going to be Aurora or Springfield. A lot of towns don't want to talk about it because they're so embarrassed by it. In Springfield, they're eating the dogs, the people that came in, they're eating the cats, they're eating the pets of the people that live there.

This is what's happening in our country, and it's a shame. As far as the rallies are concerned, as far as the reason they go is they like what I say. They want to bring our country back. They want to make America great again. It's a very simple phrase, make America great again. She's destroying this country. If she becomes president, this country doesn't have a chance of success. Not only success, we'll end up being Venezuela on steroids.

I just want to clarify here. You bring up Springfield, Ohio, and ABC news did reach out to the city manager there. He told us there had been no credible reports of specific claims of pets being harmed, injured, or abused by individuals within the immigrant community. I've seen people on television. Let me just say here, this is the-The people on television said, My dog was taken and used for food.

So maybe he said that, and maybe that's a good thing to say for a city manager.

I'm not taking this from television.

But the people on television said, Their dog was eaten by the people that went there.

Again, the Springfield City Manager says there's no evidence of that. Vice President Harris, I'll let you respond to the rest of what you've heard.

You talk about extreme. This is, I think, one of the reasons why in this election, I actually have the endorsement of 200 Republicans who have formally worked with President Bush, Mitt Romney, and John McCain, including the endorsement of former Vice President, Dick Cheney and Congress member Liz Cheney. If you want to really know the inside track on who the former President is, if he didn't make it clear already, just ask people who have worked with him. His former Chief of Staff, a four-star general, has said he has contempt for the Constitution of the United States. His former National Security Advisor has said he is dangerous and unfit. His former Secretary of Defense has said the nation, the I think would never survive another Trump term. When we listen to this rhetoric, when the issues that affect the American people are not being addressed, I think the choice is clear in this election.

President Trump, I'll give you a quick minute to respond here.

Thank you, because when I hear that, see, I'm a different a person. I fired most of those people, not so graciously. They did bad things or a bad job. I fired them. They never fired one person. They didn't fire anybody having to do with Afghanistan and the Taliban and the 13 people who were just killed, vicious and violently killed. I got to know the parents and the family. They didn't fire. They should have fired All those generals, all those top people, because that was one of the most incompetently handled situations anybody has ever seen. When somebody does a bad job, I fire them. You take a guy like Esper. He was no good. I fired him. So he writes a book, another one writes a book, because with me, they can write books with nobody else can they. But they have done such a poor job, and they never fire anybody. Look at the economy. Look at the inflation. They didn't fire any of their economists. They have the same people. That's a good way not to have books written about you. But just to finish, I got more votes than any Republican in history by far.

In fact, I got more votes than any sitting President in history by far.

Let me continue on immigration. It was what you wanted to talk about earlier. So let's get back to your deportation proposal that the vice President has reacted to as well. President Trump, you call this the largest domestic deportation operation history of our country. You say you would use the National Guard. You say if things get out of control, you'd have no problem using the US military. You also said you would use local police. How would you deport 11 million undocumented immigrants? I know you believe that number is much higher. Take us through this. What does this look like? Will authorities be going door to door in this country? It is much higher because of them.

They allowed criminals, many, many millions of criminals. They allowed terrorists. They allowed common street criminals. They allowed people to come in, drug dealers, to come into our country. They're now in the United States and told by their countries like Venezuela, Don't ever come back or we're going to kill you. Do you know that crime in Venezuela and crime in countries all over the world is way down. You know why? Because they've taken their criminals off the street and they've given them to her to put into our country. This will be one of the greatest mistakes in history for them to allow, and I They think they probably did it because they think they're going to get votes, but it's not worth it because they're destroying the fabric of our country by what they've done. There's never been anything done like this at all. They've destroyed the fabric of our country. Millions of people let in, and all over the world, crime is down all over the world, except here. Crime here is up and through the roof. Despite their fraudulent statements that they made, crime in this country is through the roof. And we have a new form of crime.

It's called migrant crime. And it's happening at levels that nobody thought possible.

President Trump, as you know, the FBI says overall, violent crime is actually coming down in this country. Excuse me, the FBI, they were defrauding statements.

They didn't include the worst cities. They didn't include the cities with the worst crime. It was a fraud, just like their number of 818,000 jobs that they said they created turned out to be a fraud.

President Trump, thank you. I'll let you respond, vice President Harris.

Well, I think this is so rich coming from someone who has been prosecuted constituted for national security crimes, economic crimes, election interference, has been found liable for sexual assault, and his next big court appearance is in November at his own criminal sentencing. Let's be clear where each person stands on the issue of what is important about respect for the rule of law and respect for law enforcement. The former vice President called for defunding federal law enforcement, 45,000 agents, get this, on the day after he was arranged on 34 felony counts. Let's talk about what is important in this race. It is important that we move forward, that we turn the page on this same old tired rhetoric and address the needs of the American people, address what we need to do about the housing shortage, which I have a plan for, address Address what we must do to support our small businesses, address bringing down the price of groceries. But frankly, the American people are exhausted with this same old tired playbook.

Vice President Harris, thank you. Excuse me.

Every one of those cases was started by them against their political opponent. I'm winning most of them, and I will win the rest on appeal. You saw that with the decision that came down just recently from the Supreme Court. I'm winning most of them. But those are cases, it's called weaponization. Never happened in this country. They weaponized the Justice Department. Every one of those cases was involved with the DOJ, from Atlanta and Fawnie Willis to the attorney general of New York and the DA in New York. Every one of those cases. Then they say, Oh, he's a criminal. They're the ones that made them go after me. By the way, Joe Biden was found essentially guilty on the documents case. Now, what happened in my documents case? They said, Oh, That's the toughest of them all. A complete and total victory. Two months ago, it was thrown out. It's weaponization, and they used it, and it's never happened in this country. They used it to try and win an election. They're fake cases.

President Trump, thank you. A really quick response here, Vice President Harris, on this notion of weaponization of the Justice Department.

Well, let's talk about extreme and understand the context in which this election in 2024 is taking place. The United States Supreme Court recently ruled that the former President would essentially be immune from any misconduct if he were to enter the White House again. Understand this is someone who has openly said he would terminate, I'm quoting, terminate the Constitution of the United States, that he would weaponize the Department of Justice against his political enemies. Someone who has openly expressed disdain for members of our military. Understand what it would mean if Donald Trump were in the White House with no guardrails, because certainly we know now the court won't stop him. We know JD Vance is not going to stop him. It's up to the American people to stop him. Vice President Harris.

Thank you. Lindsay.

Vice President Harris, in your last run for President.

This is the one that weaponized, not me. She weaponized. I probably took a bullet to the head because of the things that they say about me. They talk about democracy. I'm a threat to democracy. They're the threat to democracy with a fake Russia, Russia, Russia investigation that went nowhere.

We have a lot to get to. Lindsay.

Vice President Harris, in your last run for President, you said you wanted to ban fracking. Now you don't. You wanted mandatory government buyback programs for assault weapons. Now your campaign says you don't. You supported decriminalizing border crossings. Now you're taking a harder line. I know you say that your values have not changed. Then why have so many of your policy positions changed?

My values have not changed, and I'm going to I'll address at least every point that you've made. But in particular, let's talk about fracking because we're here in Pennsylvania. I made that very clear in 2020. I will not ban fracking. I have not banned fracking as vice President of the United States. In fact, I was the tie-breaking vote on the Inflation Reduction Act, which opened new leases for fracking. My position is that we have got to invest in diverse sources of energy so we reduce our reliance on foreign oil. We We have had the largest increase in domestic oil production in history because of an approach that recognizes that we cannot overrely on foreign oil. As it relates to my values, let me tell you, I grew up a middle-class kid, raised by a hardworking mother who worked and saved and was able to buy our first home when I was a teenager. The values I bring to the importance of homeownership, knowing not everybody, got handed $400 $1 million on a silver platter and then filed bankruptcy six times, is a value that I bring to my work to say we are going to work with the private sector and home builders to increase by 3 million homes by the end of my first term.

My work that is related to having a friend when I was in high school who was sexually assaulted by her stepfather. My focus then on protecting women and children from violent crime is based on a value that is deeply grounded in the importance of standing up for those who are most vulnerable. My work that is about protecting Social Security and Medicare is based on long-standing work that I have done, protecting seniors from scams. My values have not changed. What is important is that there is a president who actually brings values and a perspective that is about lifting people up and not beating people down and name calling. The true measure of the leader is the leader who actually understands the strength is not in beating people down, it's in lifting people up. I intend to be that president.

President Trump, your response?

First of all, I wasn't given $400 million. I wish I was. My father was a Brooklyn builder, Brooklyn Queens, and a great father, and I learned a lot from him, but I was given a fraction of that, a tiny fraction, and I built it into many, many billions of dollars, many, many billions. When people see it, they are even surprised. We don't have to talk about that. Fracking? She's been against it for 12 years. Defund the police? She's been against that forever. She gave all that stuff up very wrongly, very horribly, and everybody's laughing at it. They're all laughing at it. She gave up at least 12 and probably 14 or 15 different policies. She was big on defund the police. In Minnesota, she went out... Wait a minute. I'm talking now, if you don't mind, please. Does that sound familiar? She went out in Minnesota and wanted to let criminals that killed people, that burned down Minneapolis, she went out and raised money to get them out of jail. She did things that nobody would ever think of. Now she wants to do transgender operations on illegal aliens that are in prison. This is a radical left liberal that would do this.

She wants to confiscate your guns, and she will never allow fracking in Pennsylvania. If she won the election, fracking in Pennsylvania will end on day one. Just to finish, one thing so important, in my opinion. I got the oil business going like nobody has ever done before. When they took over, they got rid of it, started getting rid of it, and the prices were going up the roof. They immediately let these guys go to where they were. I would have been five times, four times, five times higher, because you're I'm talking about three and a half years ago. They got it up to where I was because they had no choice, because the prices of energy were quadrupling and doubling. You saw what happened to gasoline. So they said, Let's go back to Trump. But if she won the election, the day after When we have an election, they'll go back to destroying our country, and oil will be dead, fossil fuel will be dead. We'll go back to windmills, and we'll go back to solar, where they need a whole desert to get some energy to come out of it. You ever see a solar plant?

By the way, I'm a big fan of solar. But they take 400, 500 acres of desert soil. President Trump, we have a lot of issues that we have to get to. These are not good things for the environment that she understands.

We're out of time. Thank you.

Lindsay, thank you. We have an election in just 56 days. I want to talk about the peaceful transfer of power, which, of course, we all know, is a cornerstone of our democracy and the role of a president in a moment of crisis. Mr. President, on January sixth, you told your supporters to march to the Capitol. You said you would be right there with them. The country and the world saw what played out at the Capitol that day, the officers coming under attack. Aides in the West Wing say you watched it unfold on television off the oval office. You did send out tweets, but it was more than 2 hours before you sent out that video message telling your supporters to go home. Is there anything you regret about what you did on that day?

You just said a thing that isn't covered, peacefully and patriotically, I said during my speech, not later on. Peacefully and patriotically. And nobody on the other side was killed. Ashley Babet was shot by an out-of-control police officer that should have never, ever shot her. It's a disgrace. But we didn't do this group of people that have been treated so badly. I asked, what about all the people that are pouring into our country and killing people that she allowed to pour in. She was the Bordasar. Remember that. She was the Bordasar. She doesn't want to be called the Bordasar because she's embarrassed by the Bordasar. In fact, she said at the beginning, I'm surprised you're not talking about the border yet. That's because she knows what a bad job they've done. What about those people? When are they going to be prosecuted? When are these people from countries all over the world, not just South America, they're coming in from all over the world, David, all over the world, and crime rates are down all over the world because of it. But let me just ask you. David, when are those people going to be prosecuted?

When are the people that burned down Minneapolis going to be prosecuted? Or in Seattle, they went into Seattle, they took over a big percentage of the city of Seattle. When are Most people are going to be prosecuted. But let me just ask you.

You might ask her that question. You were the President. You were watching it unfold on television. It's a very simple question as we move forward toward another election. Is there anything you regret about what you did on that day?

Yes, sir. I had nothing to do I knew that other than they asked me to make a speech. I showed up for a speech. I said, I think it's going to be big. I went to Nancy Pelosi and the mayor of Washington, DC, and the mayor put it back in writing, as you know. I said, This is going to be a very big rally or whatever you want to call it. Again, it wasn't done by me. It was done by others. I said, I'd like to give you 10,000 National Guard or soldiers. They rejected me. Nancy Pelosi me. It was just two weeks ago, her daughter has a tape of her saying, She is fully responsible for what happened. They want to get rid of that tape. It would have never happened if Nancy Pelosi and the mayor of Washington did their jobs. I wasn't responsible for security. Nancy Pelosi was responsible. She She didn't do her job.

The question was about you as President, not about former Speaker Pelosi, but I do want Vice President Harris to respond here.

I was at the Capitol on January sixth. I was the Vice President-elect. I was also an acting Senator. I was there. On that day, the President of the United States incited a violent mob to attack our nation's capital, to desecrate our nation's capital. On that day, 140 law enforcement officers were injured, and some died. And understand, the former President has been indicted and impeached for exactly that reason. But this is not an isolated situation. Let's remember Charlottesville, where there was a mob of people carrying tiki torches, spewing anti-Semitic hate. And what did the President then at the time There were fine people on each side. Let's remember that when it came to the Proud Boys, a militia, the former President said, Stand back and stand by. For everyone watching who remembers what January sixth was, I say, We don't have to go back. Let's not go back. We're not going back. It's time to turn the page. If that was a bridge too far for you, well, there There is a place in our campaign for you to stand for country, to stand for our democracy, to stand for rule of law, and to end the chaos, and to end the approach that is about attacking the foundations of our democracy because you don't like the outcome.

And be clear on that point, Donald Trump, the candidate, has said in this election, there will be a bloodbath. If this and the outcome of this election is not to his liking, let's turn the page on this. Let's not go back. Let's chart a course for the future and not go backwards to the past.

Let me just follow up here.

It was a different term, and it was a term that related to energy because they have destroyed our energy business. That was where bloodbath was. Also, on Charlottesville, that story has been, as you would say, debunked. Laura Ingram, Sean Hannity, Jesse, all of these people, they covered it. If they go an extra sentence, they will see it was perfect. It was debunked in almost every newspaper, but they still bring it up, just like they bring 2025 up. They bring all of this stuff up. I ask you this, you talk about the Capitol. Why are we allowing these millions of people to come through on the Southern border? How come she's not doing anything? I'll tell you what I would do, and I would be very proud to do it. I would say we would both leave this debate right now. I'd like to see her go down to Washington, DC, during this debate, because we're wasting a lot of time. Because she's been so bad. It's so ridiculous. Go down to Washington, DC, and let her sign a bill to close up the border, because they have the right to do it. They don't need bills.

They have the right to do it. The President of the United States, you'll get him out of bed, you'll wake him up at 4:00 in the afternoon, you'll say, Come on, come on down to the office. Let's sign a bill. If he signs a bill that the border is closed. All he has to do is say it to the border patrol who are phenomenal. If they do that, the border is closed. Those people are killing many people unlike J6.

We talked immigration here tonight. I do want to focus on this next issue to both of you because it really brings us this into focus, truth in these times that we're living in. Mr. President, for three and a half years after you lost the 2020 election, you repeatedly falsely claimed that you won, many times saying you won in a landslide. In the past couple of weeks leading up to this debate, you have said, You lost by a whisker, that you didn't quite make it, that you came up a little bit short. I said that? Are you now acknowledging that you lost in 2020?

No, I don't acknowledge that at all. But you did say that. I said that sarcastically. You know that. We said, Oh, we lost by a whisker. That was said sarcastically. Look, there's so much proof. All you have to do is look at it, and they should have sent it back to the legisl for approval. I got almost 75 million votes, the most votes any sitting president has ever gotten. I was told if I got 63, which was what I got in 2016, you can't be beaten. The election, people should never be thinking about an election is fraudulent. We need two things. We need walls, and we have to have it. We have to have borders, and we have to have good elections. Our elections are bad. A lot of these illegal immigrants coming in, they're trying to get them to vote. They can't even speak English. They don't even know what country they're in, practically. These people are trying to get them to vote, and that's why they're allowing them to come into our country.

I did watch all of in these pieces of video. I didn't detect the sarcasm, lost by a whisker. We didn't quite make it. We should just point out here as clarification, and you know this, you and your allies, 60 cases in front of many judges, many of them are Republican-No judge looked at it.

And said there was no widespread fraud. They said we didn't have standing. That's the other thing. They said we didn't have standing, a tacticality. Can you imagine a system where a person in an election doesn't have standing? The President of the United States doesn't have standing. That's how we lost. If you look at the facts, and I'd love to have you Do a special on it. I'll show you Georgia, and I'll show you Wisconsin, and I'll show you Pennsylvania. We have so many facts and statistics. But you know what? That doesn't matter because we have to solve the problem that we have right now. That's old news. And the problem that we have right now is we have a nation in decline, and they have put it into decline. We have a nation that is dying, David.

Mr. President, thank you. Vice President Harris, you heard the President there tonight. He said he didn't that he lost by whisker. So he still believes he did not lose the election that was won by President Biden and yourself. But I do want to ask you about something that's come up in the last couple of days. This was a post from President Trump about this upcoming election just weeks away. He said, When I win, those people who cheated, and then he lists donors, voters, election officials, he says, Will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, which will include long-term prison sentences. One of your campaign's top lawyers responded saying, We won't let Donald It won't intimidate us. We won't let him suppress the vote. Is that what you believe he's trying to do here?

Donald Trump was fired by 81 million people. So let's be clear about that. Clearly, he is having a very difficult time processing that. But we cannot afford to have a President of the United States who attempts, as he did in the past, to upend the will of the voters in a free and fair election. I'm going to tell you I have traveled the world as vice President of the United States, and world leaders are laughing at Donald Trump. I have talked with military leaders, some of whom worked with you, and they say you're a disgrace. When you then talk in this way in a presidential debate and deny what over and over again are court cases you have lost because you did, in fact, lose that election, it leads one to believe that perhaps we do not have in the candidate, to my right, the temperament or the ability to not be confused about fact. That's deeply troubling, and the American people deserve better.

I'll give you one minute to respond, Mr. President.

Let me just tell about world leaders. Viktor Orbán, one of the most respected men. They call him a strong man. He's a tough person. Smart. Prime Minister of Hungary. They said, Why is the whole world blowing up? Three years ago, it wasn't. Why is it blowing up? He said, Because you need Trump back as President. They were afraid of him. China was afraid, and I don't like to use the word afraid, but I'm just quoting him. China was afraid of him. North Korea was afraid of him. Look at what's going on with North Korea, by the way. He said, Russia was afraid of him. I ended the Nord Stream 2 pipeline, and Biden put it back on day one, but he ended the XL pipeline. The XL pipeline in our country, he ended that, but he let the Russians build a pipeline going all over Europe and heading into Germany, the biggest pipeline in the world. Look, Viktor Orbán said it. He said, The most respected, most feared person is Donald Trump. We had no problems when Trump was President. But when this weak, pathetic man that you saw at a debate just a few months ago, that if he weren't in that debate, he'd be running instead of her.

She got no votes. He got 14 million votes. What you did, you talk about a threat to democracy. He got 14 million votes, and they threw him out of office. You know what? I'll give you a little secret. He hates her. He can't stand her. But he got 14 million votes. They threw him out. She got zero vote. When she ran, she was the first one to leave because she failed, and now she's running. I don't understand it, but I'm okay with it because- Mr..

President, your time is up. I think we're going to do very well. We've got a lot more to get to.

Turning now to the Israel Hamas war and the hostages who are still being held, Americans among them. Vice President Harris, in December, you said, Israel has a right to defend itself, but you added, It matters how, saying international humanitarian law must be respected. Israel must do more to protect innocent civilians. You said that nine months ago. Now, an estimated 40,000 Palestinians are dead. Nearly 100 hostages remain. Just last week, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said there's not a deal in the making. President Biden has not been able to break through the stalemate. How would you do it?

Well, let's understand how we got here. On October 7, Hamas, a terrorist organization, slaughtered 1,200 Israelis. Many of them young people who were simply attending a concert. Women were horribly raped. And so absolutely, I said then, I say now, Israel has a right to defend itself. We would. And how it does so matters because it is also true, far too many innocent Palestinians have been killed, children, mothers. What we know is that this war must end. It must end immediately. The way it will end is we need a ceasefire deal and we need the hostages out. We will continue to work around the clock on that. Work around the clock also understanding that we must chart a course for a two-state solution. And in that solution, there must be security for the Israeli people and Israel, and an equal measure for the Palestinians. But the one thing I will assure you always, I will always give Israel the ability to defend itself, in particular as it relates to Iran and any threat that Iran and its proxies pose to Israel. But we must have a two-state solution where we can rebuild Gaza, where the Palestinians have security diversity, self-determination, and the dignity they so rightly deserve.

President Trump, how would you negotiate with Netanyahu and also Hamas in order to get the hostages out and prevent the killing of more innocent civilians in Gaza?

If I were If I were President, it would have never started. If I were President, Russia would have never, ever, I know Putin very well, he would have never, and there was no threat of it either, by the way, for four years, have gone into Ukraine and killed millions of people when you added up. Far worse than people understand what's going on over there. But when she mentions about Israel, all of a sudden, she hates Israel. She wouldn't even meet with Netanyahu when he went to Congress to make a very important speech. She refused to be there because she was at a sorority party of hers. She wanted to go to the sorority party. She hates Israel. If she's President, I believe that Israel will not exist within two years from now. I've been pretty good at predictions, and I hope I'm wrong about that one. She hates Israel. At the same time, in her own way, she hates the Arab population because the whole place is going to get blown up. Arabs, Jewish people, Israel. Israel will be gone. It would have never happened. Iran was broke under Donald Trump. Now, Iran has $300 billion because they took off all the sanctions that I had.

Iran had no money for Hamas or Hezbollah or any of the 28 different spheres of terror. They are spheres of terror, horrible terror. They had no money. It was a big story, and you know it. You covered it very well, actually. They had no money for terror. They were broke. Now, they're a rich nation. Now, what they're doing is they're spreading that money around. Look at what's happening with the Huttis and Yemen. Look at what's going on in the Middle East. This would have never happened. I will get that settled and fast, and I'll get the war with Ukraine and Russia ended. If I'm President-elect, I'll get it done before even becoming President.

Vice President Harris, he says you hate Israel.

That's absolutely not true. I have my entire career and life supported Israel and the Israeli people. He knows that he's trying to, again, divide and distract from the reality, which is it is very well known that Donald Trump is weak and wrong on national security and foreign policy. It is well known that he admires dictators, wants to be a dictator on day one. According to himself, it is well known that he said of Putin that he can do whatever the hell he wants and go into Ukraine. It is well known that he said when Russia went into Ukraine, it was brilliant. It is well known he exchanged love letters with Kim Jong Un It is absolutely well known that these dictators and autocrats are rooting for you to be president again because they're so clear they can manipulate you with flattery and favors. That is why so many military leaders who you have worked with have told me, You are a disgrace. That is why we understand that we have to have a president who is not consistently weak have done wrong on national security, including the importance of upholding and respecting in highest regard our military.

Vice President Harris, thank you.

They're the ones, and she's the one that caused it, that's weak on national security by allowing Every nation, last month for the year, 168 different countries sending people into our country. Their crime weights are way down. Putin endorsed her last week, said, I hope she wins. I think he meant it because what he's gotten away with is absolutely incredible. It wouldn't have happened with me. The leaders of other countries think that they're weak and incompetent, and they are. They're grossly incompetent. I just ask one question, why does Biden go in and kill the Keystone Pipeline and approve the single biggest deal that Russia has ever made, Nord Stream 2, the biggest pipeline anywhere in the world, going to Germany and all over Europe, because they're weak and they're ineffective. Biden, by the way, gets paid a lot of money.

Thank We have a lot of issues to get to.

We'll be right back with much more of this historic ABC News presidential debate from the National Constitution Center right here in Philadelphia. Back in a moment. Rte, the home of great local drama. A devastating earthquake.

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Now back to the National Constitution Center in Philly.

Abc News presidential debate tonight. We're going to continue here, and I want to turn to the war in Ukraine. We're now two and a half years into this conflict. Mr. President, It has been the position of the Biden administration that we must defend Ukraine from Russia, from Vladimir Putin, to defend their sovereignty, their democracy, that it's in America's best interest to do so, arguing that if Putin wins, he may be emboldened to move even further into other countries. You have said you would solve this war in 24 hours. You said so just before the break tonight. How exactly would you do that? I want to ask you a very simple question tonight. Do you want Ukraine to win this war?

I want the war to stop. I want to save lives that are being uselessly people being killed by the millions. It's the millions. It's so much worse than the numbers that you're getting, which are fake numbers. Look, we're in for 250 billion or more because they don't ask Europe, which is a much bigger beneficiary to getting this thing done than we are, they're in for $150 billion less because Biden and you don't have the courage to ask Europe like I did with NATO. They I made billions and billions, hundreds of billions of dollars when I said, either you pay up or we're not going to protect you anymore. So that's maybe one of the reasons they don't like me as much as they like weak people. But you take a look at what's happening. We're in for They're into $150 to $275 billion. They're into 100 to 150. They should be forced to equalize. With that being said, I want to get the war settled. I know Zelenskyy very well, and I know Putin very well. I have a good relationship, and they respect your President. They respect me. They don't respect Biden. How would you respect him?

Why? For what reason? He hasn't even made a phone call in two years to Putin, hasn't spoken to anybody. They don't even try and get it. That is a war that's dying to be settled. I will get it settled before I even become president. If I win when I'm president-elect, and what I'll do is I'll speak to one, I'll speak to the other, I'll get them together. That war would have never happened. In fact, when I When I saw Putin, after I left, unfortunately left because our country has gone to hell. But after I left, when I saw him building up soldiers, he did it after I left, I said, Oh, he must be negotiating. It must be a good, strong point of negotiation. Well, it wasn't because Biden had no idea how to talk to him. He had no idea how to stop it. Now you have millions of people dead, and it's only getting worse, and it could lead to World War III. Don't kid yourself, David. We're playing with World War III, and we have a president that we don't even know if he's... Where is our president? We don't even know if he's a president.

Just to clarify here- They threw him out of a campaign like a dog. We don't even know. Is he our president? But we have a president that doesn't know he's alive. Mr. President- That doesn't know he's alive.

Your time is up. Just to clarify the question, do you believe it's in the US best interest for Ukraine to win this war, yes or no?

I think it's the US best interest to get this war finished and just get it done, negotiate a deal because we have to stop all of these human lives from being destroyed.

I want to take this to Vice President Harris. I want to get your thoughts on support for Ukraine in this moment. But also, as Commander-in-Chief, if elected, how would you deal with Vladimir Putin, and would it be any different from what we're seeing from President Biden?

Well, first of all, it's important to remind the former President, you're not running against Joe Biden, you're running against me. I believe the reason that Donald Trump says that this war would be over within 24 hours is because he would just give it up. That's not who we are as Americans. Let's understand what happened here. I actually met with Zelensky a few days before Russia invaded, tried through force to change territorial boundaries, to defy one of the most important international rules and norms, which is the importance of sovereignty and territorial integrity. I met with President Zelenskyy. I shared with him, American intelligence, about how he could defend himself. Days later, I went to NATO's Eastern flank to Poland and Romania. Through the work that I and others did, we brought 50 countries together to support Ukraine in its righteous defense. Because of our support, because of the air defense, the ammunition, the artillery, the javelins, the Abrams tanks that we have provided, Ukraine stands as an independent and free country. If Donald Trump were President, Putin would be sitting in Kyiv right now. And understand what that would mean, because Putin's agenda is not just about Ukraine.

Understand why the European allies and our NATO allies are so thankful that you are no longer President and that we understand the importance of the greatest military alliance the world has ever known, which is NATO, and what we have done to preserve the ability of Zelensky and the Ukrainians to fight for their independence. Otherwise, Putin would be sitting in Kyiv with his eyes on the rest of Europe, starting with Poland. Why don't you tell the 800,000 Polish Americans right here in Pennsylvania how quickly you would give up for the sake of favor and what you think is a friendship with what is known to be a dictator who would eat you for lunch.

Vice President Harris, thank you. We've heard from both of you on Ukraine tonight. Afghanistan came up in the last hour. I wanted her to respond to something you said earlier. Please, I'll give you a minute here.

Putin would be sitting in Moscow, and he wouldn't have lost 300,000 men and women, but he would have been sitting in Moscow... Quiet, please. He would have been sitting in Moscow much happier than he is right now. But eventually, he's got a thing that other people don't have. He's got nuclear weapons. They don't ever talk about that. He got nuclear weapons. Nobody ever thinks about that. Eventually, maybe he'll use them, and maybe he hasn't been that threatening, But he does have that, something we don't even like to talk about. Nobody likes to talk about it. But just so you understand, they sent her to negotiate peace before this war started. Three days later, he went in and he started the war because everything they said was weak and stupid. They said the wrong things. That war should have never started. She was the emissary. They sent her in to negotiate with Zelenskyy and Putin, and she did. The war started three days later.Vice President? That's the talent we have with her. She's worse than Biden. In my opinion, I think he's the worst president in the history of our country. She goes down as the worst vice President in the history of our country.

But let me tell you something, she is a horrible negotiator. They sent her in to negotiate. As soon as they left, Putin did the invasion.

President Trump, thank you. You did bring up something. You said she went to negotiate with Vladimir Putin. Vice President Harris, have you ever met Vladimir Putin? Can you clarify tonight?

Yet again, I said at the beginning of this debate, you're going to hear a bunch of lies coming from this fellow, and that is another one. When I went to meet with President Zelantzky, I've now met with him over five times. The reality is it has been about standing as America always should, as a leader upholding international rules and norms, as a leader who shows strength, understanding that the alliances we have around the world are dependent on our ability to look out for our friends and do not favor our enemies because you adore strong men instead of caring about democracy. That is very much what is at stake here. The President of the United States is Commander-in-Chief, and the American people have a right to rely on a President who understands the significance of America's role and responsibility in terms of ensuring that there is stability and ensuring we stand up our principles and not sell them for the benefit of personal flattery.

We've talked about Ukraine and Vladimir Putin. I do want to talk about Afghanistan. It came up in the first hour of this debate. I wanted to move on to Afghanistan.

Said, Trump did the most amazing thing I've ever seen. He got these countries, the 28 countries at the time, to pay up. He said, I've never seen. He's the head of NATO. He said, I've never seen. For years, we were paying almost all of NATO. We were being ripped off by European nations, both on trade and on NATO. I got them to pay up by saying, one of the statements you made before, If you don't pay, we're not going to protect you. Otherwise, we would have never gotten it. He said it was one of the most incredible jobs that he's ever seen done.

Thank you. I want to turn to Afghanistan. It came up in the first hour of the debate, and we witnessed a poignant moment today on Capitol Hill honoring the soldiers who died in the chaotic withdrawal from Afghanistan. I do want to ask the vice President, do you believe you bear any responsibility in the way that withdrawal played out?

Well, I will tell you I agreed with President Biden's decision to pull out of Afghanistan. Four presidents said they would, and Joe Biden did. As a result, America's taxpayers are not paying the $300 million a day. We were paying for that endless war. As of today, there is not one member of the United States military who is in active duty in a combat zone in any war zone around the for the first time this century. But let's understand how we got to where we are. Donald Trump, when he was President, negotiated one of the weakest deals you can imagine. He calls himself a dealmaker. Even his national security adviser said, It was a weak, terrible deal. Here's how it went down. He bypassed the Afghan government. He negotiated directly with a terrorist organization called the Taliban. The negotiation involved the Taliban getting 5,000 Taliban terrorists released. And get this. No, get this. And the President at the time invited the Taliban to Camp David, a place of storied significance for us as Americans, a place where we honor the importance of American diplomacy, where we invite and receive respected world leaders. And this former President, as The President invited them to Camp David because he does not again appreciate the role and responsibility of the President of the United States to be Commander-in-Chief with a level of respect.

This gets back to the point of how he has consistently disparaged and demeaned members of our military, fallen soldiers, and the work that we must do to uphold the strength and the respect of United States of America, around the world.

Vice President Harris, thank you. President Trump, your response to her saying that you began the negotiation with the Taliban. Yeah, thank you.

If you take a look at that period of time, the Taliban was killing our soldiers a a lot of them with snipers. I got involved with the Taliban because the Taliban was doing the killing. That's the fighting force within Afghanistan. They don't bother doing that because they deal with the wrong people all the time. But I got involved. Abdul is the head of the Taliban. He is still the head of the Taliban. I told Abdul, Don't do it anymore. You do it anymore. You're going to have problems. He said, Why do you send me a picture of my house? I said, You're going to have to figure that out, Abdul. For 18 months, we had nobody killed. We did have an agreement negotiated by Mike Pompeo. It was a very good agreement. The reason it was good, we were getting out. We would have been out faster than them, but we wouldn't have lost the soldiers. We wouldn't have left many Americans behind. We wouldn't have left $85 billion worth of brand new, beautiful military equipment behind. Just to finish, they blew it. The agreement said, You have to do this, this, this, this, and They didn't do it.

The agreement was terminated by us because they didn't do what they were supposed to do.

I want to move on.

These people did the worst withdrawal, and in my opinion, the most It's an embarrassing moment in the history of our country. And by the way, that's why Russia attacked Ukraine, because they saw how incompetent she and her boss are.

President Trump, thank you. I want to move on now to race and politics in this country. Mr. President, you recently said of Vice President Harris, I didn't know she was black until a number of years ago when she happened to turn black, and now she wants to be known as black. I want to ask a bigger picture question here tonight. Why do you believe it's appropriate to weigh in on the racial identity of your I don't, and I don't care.

I don't care what she is. I don't care. You make a big deal out of something. I couldn't care less. Whatever she wants to be is okay with me.

But those were your words.

I don't know. I don't know. I mean, all I can say is I read where she was not black, that she put out, and I'll say that. Then I read that she was black, and that's okay. Either one was okay with me. That's up to her.

Vice President Harris, your thoughts on this.

I think it's... I mean, honestly, I think it's a tragedy that we have someone who wants to be President who has consistently, over the course of his career, attempted to use race to divide the American people. I do believe that the vast majority of us know that we have so much more in common than what separates us, and we don't want this approach that is just constantly trying to divide us, and especially by race. Let's remember how Donald Trump started. He was a land. He owned land, he owned buildings. He was investigated because he refused to rent property to black families. Let's remember, this is the same individual who took out a full-page ad in the New York Times calling for the execution of five young black and Latino boys who were innocent, the Central Park Five, took out a full-page ad calling for their execution. This is the same individual who spread birth or lies about the first Black President of the United States. I think the American people want better than that, want better than this, want someone who understands as I do, I travel our country. We see in each other a friend.

We see in each other a neighbor. We don't want a leader who is constantly trying to have Americans point their fingers at each other. I meet with people all the time who tell me, Can we please just have discourse about how we're going to invest in the aspirations and the ambitions and the dreams of the American people? Knowing that regardless of people's color or the language their grandmother speaks, we all have the same dreams and aspirations and We're not a president who invest in those, not in hate and division.

Vice President Harris. Thank you. Lindsay.

President Trump, this is now your third time.

This is the most divisive presidency in the history of our country. There's never been anything like it. They're destroying our country, and they come up with things like what she just said. Going back many, many years, when a lot of people, including Mayor Bloomberg, agreed with me on the Central Park 5, they admitted, they said they pled guilty. And I said, Well, if they fled guilty, they'd badly hurt a person, killed a person, ultimately. And if they fled guilty, then they fled. We're not guilty. But this is a person that has to stretch back years It's 40, 50 years ago because there's nothing now. I built one of the greatest economies in the history of the world, and I'm going to build it again. It's going to be bigger, better, and stronger, but they're destroying our economy. They have no idea what a good economy is. Their oil policies, every single policy. And remember this, she is Biden. She's trying to get away from Biden. I don't know the gentleman, she says, She is Biden. The worst inflation we've ever had, a It's a horrible economy because inflation has made it so bad that you can't get away with that.

Thank you.

Your time is up.

I want to respond to that, though. I want to just respond briefly. Clearly, I am not Joe Biden, and I am certainly not Donald Trump. What I do offer is a new generation of leadership for our country, one who believes in what is possible, one who brings a sense of optimism about what we can do instead of always disparaging the American people. I believe in what we can do to strengthen our small businesses, which is why I have a plan. Let's talk about our plans, and let's compare the plans. I have a to give startup businesses $50,000 tax deduction to pursue their ambitions, their innovation, their ideas, their hard work. I have a plan, $6,000 for young families for the first year of your child's life to help you in that most critical stage of your child's development. I have a plan that is about allowing people to be able to pursue what has been fleeting in terms of the American dream by offering help with down payment of $25,000 down payment assistance for first-time home buyers. That's the conversation, I believe, David, that people really want tonight, as opposed to a conversation that is constantly about belittling and name calling.

Let's turn the page and move forward. Vice President Harris.

Thank you. Let's turn to policy.

We have to move on. President Trump.

Let's turn to policy, please.

She has a plan to defund the police. She has a plan to confiscate everybody's gun. President Trump will do have to move on to other issues. She has a plan to not allow fracking in Pennsylvania or anywhere else. That's what her plan is until just recently.

I just need to respond. President Trump- The former President has said something twice that I need to respond to.

I'm sorry, we're going to move on, vice President.

I just need to respond one time to what he has said multiple times.

President Trump, this is now your third time running for President. You have long vowed to repeal and replace the Affordable Care Act, also known as Obamacare. You have failed to accomplish that. You now say you're going to keep Obamacare, unless we can do something much better. Last month, you said, We're working on it. So tonight, nine years after you first started running, do you have a plan, and can you tell us what it is?

Obamacare was lousy health care. Always was. It's not very good today. And what I said that if we come up with something and we are working on things, we're going to do it and we're going to replace it. But remember this, I inherited Obamacare because Democrats wouldn't change it. They wouldn't vote for it. They were unanimous. They wouldn't vote to change it. If they would have done that, we would have had a much better plan than Obamacare. But the Democrats came up, they wouldn't vote for it. I had a choice to make when I was President. Do I save it and make it as good as it can be? Never going to be great. Or do I let it rot? I felt I had an obligation, even though politically it would have been good to just let it rot and let it go away. I decided, and I told my people, the top people, and they're very good people. I have a lot of good people in that administration. We read about the bad ones. We had some real bad ones, too, and so do they. They have really bad ones. The difference is they don't get rid of them.

But let me just explain. I had a choice to make. Do I save it and make it as good as it can be, or do I let it rot? And I saved it. I did the right thing. But it's still never going to be great, and it's too expensive for people. What we will do is we're looking at different plans. If we can come up with a plan that's going to cost our people, our population, less money and be better health care than Obamacare, then I would absolutely do it. But until then, I'd run it as good as it can be run.

So just a yes or no, you still do not have a plan?

I have concepts of a plan. I'm not President right now. But if we come up with something, I would only change it if we come up with something that's better and less expensive. And there are concepts and options we have to do that, and you'll be hearing about it in the not too distant future.

Vice Vice President Harris, in 2017, you supported Bernie Sanders's proposal to do away with private insurance and create a government-run healthcare system. Two years later, you proposed a plan that included a private insurance option. What is your plan today?

Well, first of all, I absolutely support, and over the last four years as vice president, private health care options. But what we need to do is maintain and grow the Affordable Care Act. But I'll get to that, Lindsay. I just need to respond to a previous point that the former president has made. I've made very clear my position on fracking, and then this business about taking everyone's guns away. Tim Walsh and I are both gun owners. We're not taking anybody's guns away. So stop with the continuous lying about this stuff. As it relates to the Affordable Care Act, understand, just look at the history to know where people stand. When Donald Trump was President, 60 times he tried to get rid of the Affordable Care Act, 60 times. I was a senator at the time. I will never forget the early morning hours when it was up for a vote in the United States Senate and the late great John McCain, who you have disparaged as being... You don't like him, you said at the time, because he got caught. He was an American hero. The late great John McCain, I will never forget that night, walked onto the Senate floor and said, No, you don't.

No, you don't. No, you don't get rid of the Affordable Care Act. You have no plan. And what the Affordable Care Act has done is eliminate the ability of insurance companies to deny people with pre-existing conditions. I don't have to tell the people watching tonight, you remember what that was like? Remember when an insurance company could deny if a child had asthma, if someone was a breast cancer survivor, if a grandparent had diabetes? And thankfully, as I've been vice president, and we, over the last four years, have strengthened the Affordable Care Act. We have allowed for the first time Medicare to negotiate drug prices on On behalf of you, the American people. Donald Trump said he was going to allow Medicare to negotiate drug prices. He never did. We did. And now we have capped the cost of insulin at $35 a month. Since I've been vice president, we have capped the cost of prescription medication for seniors at $2,000 a year. When I am president, we will do that for all people understanding that the value I bring to this is that access to health care should be a right and not just a privilege of those who can afford it.

The plan has to be to strengthen the Affordable Care Act, not get rid of it. That's this pro-luck in terms of where Donald Trump stands on that.

I want to move to an issue that's important for a lot of- She made a mistake.

Number one, John McCain fought Obamacare for 10 years, but it wasn't only him. It were all of the Democrats that kept it going. You know what? We could do much better than Obamacare, much less money. But she won't improve private insurance for people, private medical insurance. That's another thing she doesn't want to get. People are paying privately for insurance that have worked hard and made money, and they want to have private. She wants everybody to be on government insurance where you wait six months for an operation that you need immediately.

President Trump, thank you. We have another issue that we'd like to get to that's important for a number of Americans, in particular, younger voters, and that's climate change. President Trump, with regard to the environment, you say that we have to have clean air and clean water Vice President Harris, you call climate change an existential threat. The question to you both tonight is, what would you do to fight climate change? And Vice President Harris will start with you. One minute for you each.

Well, the former President had said the climate change is a hoax. And what we know is that it is very real. You ask anyone who lives in a state who has experienced these extreme weather occurrences, who now is either being denied home insurance or it's being jacked up. You ask anybody who has been of the victim of what that means in terms of losing their home, having nowhere to go. We know that we can actually deal with this issue. The young people of America care deeply about this issue. I am proud that as vice president over the last four years, we have invested a trillion dollars in a clean energy economy while we have also increased domestic gas production to historic levels. We have created over 800,000 new manufacturing jobs while I have been vice president. We We have invested in clean energy to the point that we are opening up factories around the world. Donald Trump said he was going to create manufacturing jobs. He lost manufacturing jobs. I'm also proud to have the endorsement of the United Autoworkers and Sean Faine, who also know that part of building a clean energy economy includes investing in made products, American automobiles.

It includes growing what we can do around American manufacturing monitoring and opening up auto plants, not closing them like happened under Donald Trump.

Vice President Harris, thank you.

It didn't happen under Donald Trump. Let me just tell you, they lost 10,000 manufacturing jobs this last month. It's going... They're all leaving. They're building big auto plants in Mexico, in many cases, owned by China. They're building these massive plants, and they think they're going to sell their cars into the United States because of these people. What they have given to China is unbelievable. But we're not going to let that. We'll put tariffs on those cars so they can't come into our country because they will kill the United Auto Workers and any auto worker, whether it's in Detroit or South Carolina or any other place. What they've done to business and manufacture Manufacturing in this country is horrible. We have nothing because they refuse. Biden doesn't go after people because supposedly China paid him millions of dollars. He's afraid to do it between him and his son. They get all this money from Ukraine. They get all this money from all of these different countries. Then you wonder, why is he so loyal to this one, that one, Ukraine, China? Why is he? Why did he get three and a half million dollars from the mayor of Moscow's wife?

Why did he get... Why did she pay him three and a half million dollars? This is a crooked administration, and they're selling our country down the tubes.

President Trump, thank you.

Thank you.

We'll be right back with closing statements from both of our candidates. An historic night, this ABC news presidential debate from Philadelphia. Back in a moment. Rte, the home of great local drama. A devastating earthquake.

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Welcome back for the final segment of this presidential debate between former President, Donald Trump, and vice President Kamala Harris. It is at the National Constitution Center in Philadelphia. Final segment starts now.

Welcome back tonight. The time has come for closing statements. And vice President Harris, we begin with you.

I think you've We've heard tonight two very different visions for our country, one that is focused on the future and the other that is focused on the past and an attempt to take us backward. But we're not going back. I do believe that the American people know we all have so much more in common than what separates us, and we can chart a new way forward. A vision of that includes having a plan, understanding the aspirations, the dreams, the hopes, the ambition of the American people, which is why I intend to create an opportunity economy, investing in small businesses, in new families, in what we can do around protecting seniors, what we can do that is about giving hardworking folks a break and bringing down the cost of living. I believe in what we can do together that is about sustaining America's standing in the world and ensuring that we have the respect that we so rightly deserve, including respecting our military and ensuring we have the most lethal fighting force in the world. I will be a president that will protect our fundamental rights and freedoms, including the right of a woman to make decisions about her own body and not have her government tell her what to do.

I'll tell you, I started my career as a prosecutor. I was a DA, I was an attorney general, a United States Senator, and now Vice President. I've only had one the people. I'll tell you, as a prosecutor, I never asked a victim or a witness, Are you a Republican or a Democrat? The only thing I ever asked them, Are you okay? That's the President we need right now someone who cares about you and is not putting themselves first. I intend to be a President for all Americans and focus on what we can do over the next 10 and 20 years to build back of our country by investing right now in you, the American people.

Vice President Harris, thank you. President Trump?

She just started by saying she's going to do this, she's going to do that, she's going to do all these wonderful things. Why hasn't she done it? She's been there for three and a half years. They've had three and a half years to fix the border. They've had three and a half years to create jobs and all the things we talked about. Why hasn't she done it? She should leave right now, go down to that beautiful White House, go to the Capitol, get everyone together and do the things you want to do, but you haven't done it, and you won't do it because you believe in things that the American people don't believe in. You believe in things like We're not going to frack. We're not going to take fossil fuel. We're not going to do things that are going to make this country strong, whether you like it or not. Germany tried that, and within one year, they were back to building normal energy plants. We're not ready for We can't sacrifice our country for the sake of bad vision. But I just ask one simple question, why didn't she do it? We're a failing nation.

We're a nation that's in serious decline. We're being laughed at all over the world. All over the world, they laugh. I know the leaders very well. They're coming to see me. They call me. We're laughed at all over the world. They don't understand what happened to us as a nation. We're not a leader. We don't have any idea what's going We have wars going on in the Middle East. We have wars going on with Russia and Ukraine. We're going to end up in a third world war, and it'll be a war like no other because of nuclear weapons, the power of weaponry. I rebuilt our entire military. She gave a lot of it away to the Taliban. She gave it to Afghanistan. What these people have done to our country, and maybe toughest of all, is allowing millions of people to come into our country Many of them are criminals, and they're destroying our country, the worst president, the worst vice President in the history of our country.

President Trump, thank you. That is our ABC News presidential debate from here in Philadelphia at the National Constitution Center.

I'm Lindsay Davis. I'm David Muir. Thank you for watching here in the US and all over the world and from all of us here at ABC News. Good night.

Lindsay Davis and David Muir wrapping this This presidential debate between former President Donald Trump and vice President of the United States, Kamala Harris. You could not have two more different candidates with two more different approaches to the task at hand here. I had a television executive once tell me that everything you need to know about a live event on television, you can tell with the sound off. If you had the sound for this debate, which I'm sure nobody did, what you would have seen was Trump looking physically hunched, angry, squinting. I never saw the YTS of his eyes the entire debate, shouting, constantly interrupting himself, not just going down tangents, but being unable to finish a thought, seeming very frustrated, very angry, very negative, and very tired. In contrast, Kamala Harris, appeared to be light on her feet, quite puzzled by him. The two-shot of him squinting and hunching and seeming to be having physical trouble squeezing the words out, certainly squeezing the sentences out, while she just looked at him absolutely puzzled by where it was he was going. I think that visual may be as much of a takeaway as anything that was said.

That said, boy, what was said? Trump repeatedly coming back to the same lines over and over again about world crime rates being low, and that being the explanation for America having high crime rates. He said strange things, like all Democrats wanted Roe versus Wade overturned. He said that it is legal to kill children in the United States. He insisted that he saw something on television about eating dogs. That was one of the weirdest moments of the debate, saying he saw it on television, so therefore he knows it's true, and so therefore what the police said about it That might be true. Kamala Harris kept going back to her plan, her campaign, but also kept going directly at him. She told him that military leaders who have worked with him have told her that Donald Trump is a disgrace. As she said to him that you are a disgrace. She described him as confused and unable to understand that he lost the election. She said he was fired by 81 million people, and he's having a very difficult time processing that. She he was handed $400 million on a silver platter and then filed bankruptcy six times.

She said people leave his rallies early due to exhaustion and boredom. In talking about the Russia-Ukraine war, she said Putin would be sitting in Kyiv, if you were President, with his eyes on the rest of Europe, starting with Poland. Why don't you tell the 800,000 Polish Americans right here in Pennsylvania how quickly you would give up for the sake of favor and what you think is a friendship with what is known to be a dictator who would eat you for lunch. I've never seen a starker contrast in presentation from two candidates in any debate, in any type of contest, in any political race.

I think that's because there hasn't been one. Now, I think that we all know that maximum humility is required of us, particularly in the next 57 days. We do not know the outcome of the election. But if these matter at all in the outcomes of said elections, it should be over because she didn't just prevail in every exchange. She prevailed at the humaning. Questions that were deeply personal. She turned into questions not about herself, not about her campaign, not about the Democratic Party, not even about Donald Trump, but about the country. The whole beginning was... I don't know if he noticed. His synapses did not seem to be firing, but she got out her entire economic agenda. The thing that Chris Christie suggested she do, use this as an opportunity to say which-In the first two minutes. She did it in about the first eight minutes. It was all out there. To the degree that Trump has support because his supporters are scared or nostalgic about an America that's slipping away, I suppose That was somewhere in there. For what it's worth, the Drudge report has a picture of him with the cat saying it's over.

To the degree that it's her job to cover what the campaigns do and the political apparatus, the Trump campaign is going to plans B, C, and D, and they have them. They're dark and they're dirty, and they're heinous. What do you mean? They're going to the types of things that Trump tweeted about, the threats, the retribution, the placement of allies on election boards as they've done in the state of Georgia, because this did not win Trump. Any new voters?

Laura.

We are now seeing maybe the second presidential debate in history where Poland might be the deciding issue. That point you isolated, 800,000 Polish people in the state of Pennsylvania.

Kamala Harris reached out directly to those voters. If she got 10,000 of them to focus on the threat to Poland that Vladimir Putin represents, she may have won the presidential election in that particular response. Let's start at the beginning. When they entered, I was wondering what was going to happen. Would there be a handshake? We're going to see that video more than once. It's Donald Trump running away from her. It's Donald Trump trying to turn away as the adult in the room approaches and crosses to do what every presidential candidate before her has done in that situation, which is to extend her hand to the other candidate, and Donald Trump runs away from it until he can't. She literally has to corner him to shake his hand, and she does it. Two things I would point out quickly about it. You heard the person who was President, President of the United States on January sixth say to the American people, I wasn't responsible for security. President of the United States, Commander-in-Chief is what this job is about, and he's saying, When they're attacking the Capitol and I'm doing nothing for two hours and more than two hours, I wasn't responsible for security.

Another thing you isolated where he said that Democrats and everyone wanted Roe versus Wade overturned. Here's the problem with that lie. That's his worst lie of the night because he was lying to the voters about the voters. He was lying about you and you know it. More than 60% of the country is sitting there saying, He's lying about me. I'm a Republican, and I didn't want Roe overturned. I'm a Democrat. I'm an independent.

I didn't want Roe overturned.

He actually lied directly to the voters about the voters.

Joy.

I think the moment that the debate went completely sideways for Donald Trump was the moment when vice President Harris was very smart about saying, She's I'm the only person. This was an answer about immigration. David Muir asked about illegal border crossings. We knew that that question was coming, that they were going to talk about it, reaching a record high. Numbers have dropped blah, blah, blah. She says, I'm the only person on this stage who's prosecuted transnational gangs, trafficking drugs and human beings. She talks about that bill that was on the table that Donald Trump called Republicans and said, Don't vote for it because he wanted the issue, but he didn't want. He didn't want to solve the problem. He just wanted the issue for the election. Then she did what I think is the smartest thing of the night, and it is the thing that we got from Hillary Clinton that she was being advised to do, get him with the one thing that will completely destabilize him for the rest of the debate, and it did. You named it before. It's when he said, essentially, she said that, We need a leader who focuses on solutions.

He's going to talk about immigration when it's not even the subject because he kept going back to the millions of people in there, all criminals. He She kept doing it, and she called him on, and she said, Note that he's going to talk about immigration when it's not the question. I invite you to attend one of his rallies where he talks about Hannibal Lector. I want you to know that people at these rallies start leaving early. What you won't hear him talk about is you. That ended Donald Trump's the cheese being firmly affixed to the cracker. He literally, after that, could not stop interrupting. He could not stop going back. He could not stop going right back to his special place where he went on about immigration. He argued. He then turned around and interrupted and tried to keep arguing about crowd size. He tried to say, We're going to World War III. He said, Millions of towns, Aurora, Springfield. He said that multiple times. They're eating dogs and cats. It was after that that he went into the dogs and cats. David Mouir breaks in and says, No, sir. There is no credible reporting about that.

He kept rambling. I think what Vice President Harris managed to do was every single thing that the campaign beforehand said they wanted her to do. She got her policy points out. After this debate, what people will think about when they think about Vice President Harris is $25,000 for building a first home, $50,000 for a new business. They will think about the $6,000 tax credit because she kept saying it. What he kept saying was rambling bizarre nonsense that made him look old. It made him look unstable. It made him look not just unpresidential, But the look that was on vice president Harris's face, I kept screenshotting her face. The look said pity. She looked like she pitied him, and she kept looking at him like, Are you okay? She finally said, I think you're having a hard time connecting with reality. Donald Trump got destroyed in this debate because he can't control his mind. You don't want a president of the United States that is not in full control of his mind.

It was by far the best debate performance against Donald Trump ever by anyone, I think.

Just a quick parentheses, it may very well be the best televised debate performance ever.

I cannot think of a better one.

I thought it was Except. I thought it's the best anyone's ever done against him. Both in Republican primaries and those big group brawls and one-on-one, even though I think both Biden and Hillary had acquitted themselves well against him.

The thing that she did, and it almost became like comical at a certain point, was she's doing two things every time?

What do I want to communicate? Because we're talking about how you negotiate this, right? How much him, how much you? What do I want to communicate about what I'm doing? Then in the midst of that, just this little lure for the fish, and it could be John McCain. You know if you bring up John McCain, he's going to litigate John McCain. It could be very fine people at Charlottesville.

You know if you bring up very fine people, he's going to swim upstream to go talk about very fine people.

It could be Suckers and Losers. He's going to go talk about Suckers and Losers.

Every single time, she would communicate, and then she would leave dangling this bait, and he would swim up to the bait.

The bait was always a thing that Donald Trump is obsessed with about himself. A grievance, a thing in the past, the well-worn things that we've heard him go on and on about Nancy Pelosi was the reason that January sixth got attacked, yada, yada. Every one of them just serve to reaffirm the fact that the guy is old out of it and obsessed with his old grievances. I will just say as a final point, to your point on humility, I have no idea. You could come out of this and the polling is going to be exactly the same.

Or you could tell me that some group of swing voters are like, I don't know.

I don't have the mind of a swing voter, obviously.

I don't know.

I'm humble on that.

What I saw was someone totally outmatched in every single way.

Can I just add those?

No, you go.

I think that we have all been tough and critical of the press. Abc did a very fine job. They did reporting on the eating of pets.

Which is important.

You got to say it. I think sometimes people are reluctant to put themselves in a story. David Muir didn't hesitate to say, I went back and watched the tape. You didn't sound sarcastic to me when you said, I lost by a whisker. Kahn-meier got Trump on three sides of whether or not he won in 2020. He said, I won. And then he said, I said sarcastically that I lost by a whisker. And then David Muir ended it by saying, No, that wasn't sarcastic. So what the American people heard was Trump on three sides of the outcome of 2020. And David Mühr and Lindsay Davis. Lindsay Davis played an important role in that.

They were excellent. I think kudos to them because they did just enough fact-checking not to be a part of the debate, but to make sure that really egregious lies were shut down. The one thing I would add, theatrically, what vice president Harris did that I thought was very smart was that when she was saying something about Donald Trump, particularly when she was talking about the way foreign governments that she has interacted with, think about him, she looked at him. Yes. He would not look at her. He would not. He would not look at her. He stayed and he gloured into the camera. That two-shot, I think, puts her at a stature so far above him. He looked weak and he looked afraid because he wouldn't look her in the eye. She said, You, you are a disgrace. I'm not saying, I'm saying you're a disgrace. I'm saying that the people that I speak with that are heads of military.

Military leaders who have worked with you. Who worked with you. Tell me that you are a disgrace. In order to say you, has to turn to him and he can't bear it.

He can't bear it. Then he, in his own defense, he goes to Victor Orbán. You could almost hear the entire audience laughing because you're like, You've got to be kidding. That's your defense, Victor Orbán? His other good one was when he tried to explain how it was his idea to get out of Afghanistan, but it was a terrible idea. He names a random name of an Arabic name and says, Well, that guy, that guy loves me. He didn't have anyone that he he could point to that was like a character witness.

He also invented a head of the Taliban named Abdul.

Abdul. It was not the name of the head of the Taliban.

Just to be clear, he just randomly named him. Just one more thing, and then I know we have colleagues, whatever, but just on the abortion answer, which was, to me, was the worst moment in the first debate because Joe Biden got asked an abortion question and he just did not deliver the answer that is right there.

She destroyed him on the abortion answer. She talked about why we're here. She talked about the consequences in the real world of women bleeding out in a parking lot waiting to get care because they have a miscarriage that they cannot be treated, and 12-year-old survivors of incest. She completely destroyed him on it. She gave him no territory to wiggle away from it. Also, he refused to say he would veto a national ban. Yes. Which he could, and J. D. Vann said he could. He could have, and he didn't. It's now 11 o'clock on the East Coast. You are watching our coverage of the second presidential debate, the first debate between Vice President Kamal Harris and former President Trump, which concluded just a few minutes ago in Philadelphia. I mean, Chris, to your point about news being made here, Trump refused to say that he would veto a national abortion ban. Trump also repeatedly refused to say that he thinks or wants, thinks that it would be good or wants for Ukraine to win the war against Russia. Correct. He would not say it. He would not say it. Then he talks about how he's very concerned about the number of troops that Russia has lost after they invaded another sovereign country?

I mean, it was stunning. Joy, to your point about the way that Kamal Harris turned it to him directly. I just want to read that part from the transcript. Kamala Harris says to the camera, Donald Trump was fired by 81 million people. So let's be clear about that. Clearly, he's having a very difficult time processing that. But we cannot afford to have a president of the United States who attempts, as he did in the past, to upend the will of the voters in a free and fair election. I'm going to tell you that I have traveled the world as vice president. World leaders are laughing at Donald Trump. I mean, he cannot bear the idea of somebody laughing at him. World leaders are laughing at Donald Trump. I have talked with military leaders, some of whom work, and then she concerns with you, and they say, You're a disgrace. When you then talk in this way in a presidential debate over and over again about court cases you've lost because you did, in fact, lose that election, it leads one to believe that perhaps we do not have in the candidate to my right the temperament or the ability to not be confused about that fact.

That's deeply troubling, and the American people deserve better.

That is playing those two tracks that you're talking about, Chris, the camera talking to people at home and talking to her opponent in ways that deeply, deeply rattled him. She's able to do it in the same answer. Joining us now, I'm honored to say, is the Democratic vice presidential nominee in Minnesota, Tim Walls. Governor John Wallace. I really appreciate you making time to be with us here tonight. Thank you. Thanks for having me, Rachel. Great night. A great night. You were at a watch party in Arizona. You think it was a great night. Tell us how you assess your running mates' performance this evening. Yeah, I'm out here in Mesa, and folks across the country got to see a president for all Americans. You saw Kamal Harris conduct herself with dignity. She laid out a clear vision forward, one that's an opportunity economy we keep talking about, ability to own a home, making sure prescription drugs are not too expensive, and tackling the real problems and doing it all with grace and dignity. And then on the other side, look, I don't know how others describe it. You saw a nearly 80-year-old angry narcissist continue to veer off into things that in any other setting might actually be funny, but they're dangerous in this setting.

They're dangerous because this guy anywhere near the White House is simply unacceptable. But I think the good news is a lot of Americans are going to see this cliff. These things are going to go around. They're going to talk to their neighbors, and they're going to see what Vice President Harris is bringing to them. She talks about them. He talks about himself. She talks about real issues. He goes on tangents that are hard to follow. I have to tell you, I'm excited about this. It's what we all knew. I'm glad more people are engaging, and we've got an opportunity. All of this, doing it with joy, a politics of joy, a politics of possibilities, versus this just increasingly dark.

Look, what I say is, Rachel, this guy's rooting for against America. He's he's rooting for failure. He does not want good news. He does not want good economic news. He does not want to see unemployment inflation going down. He wants to see the worst because whatever twisted vision he has, he thinks he's the guy to fix it when he's the guy who started the problem. She did a great job. I'm really proud of her. You're running mate, Vice President Harris. One of the things that she was just getting praised for at this table here was that she, right out of the gate, was able to get to a lot of the details of her policy proposals, the kinds of practical proposals that you're talking about, things like child tax credit and a big tax deduction for startup businesses and for first-time homeowners. She laid out those things, and it's important, obviously, to communicate those things to the American people with such a big audience, tens of millions of people are watching tonight. It wasn't necessarily news, though, because we know that's what she's running on. On the other side, the other candidate, former President Trump, did make a bunch of news tonight.

He refused to say whether or not he would a national abortion ban. He refused to say that Ukraine should win the war in Russia, and that would be better. He was asked nine years after you first said you wanted to get rid of Obamacare, Do you yet have your own health care plan? And he responded by saying, I have concepts of plans. I mean, all of this was, among other things, it was new information in terms of Donald Trump's plans. I wonder if that changes anything for you in terms of thinking about how to campaign against him and his running mate. Americans should know. We know what a non-answer is when he's talking about this, of course he would not sign a ban against that because he wants it. He's the one who ruined Roe. He brags about it all the time. Of course, he's not going to do anything with Ukraine because he wants Putin, his buddy, to be in there, and he wants to undermine our alliances that have He's got peace in the world. These non-answers are as clear as anything. He can't answer them. Again, when you ask him for a plan nine years on health care, we know what he's going to do.

He's going to destroy the ACA, get rid of pre-existing condition protections. He's going to attack Social Security and Medicare. The one thing I say, Rachel, is he is clear about he will give tax cuts to the wealthy because that's the one thing he actually followed through with. So he has no plan. When I travel, and we all see this, when I was at the D-Day Memorial, it was clear that other countries deeply concerned with Donald Trump coming back, deeply concerned that his inability to do anything other than a transactional shakedown of our historical allies as we set on the beaches of Normandy where Americans died, protected protecting Europe, but protecting us. That's the thing. You give in on Ukraine, it empowers China, it empowers Putin, it empowers dictators. But again, one example, he was asked for one world leader who was with him in its Orbán. My God, that's all you need to know. You've got a leader in Kamala Harris that understands the importance of these alliances.

She understands what it truly means to stand up for the Western democracies, and she truly means to talk about others. Donald Trump talked about himself. 99% of the time. In other words, if he wasn't talking about that, he was talking about Orban. So it couldn't have been clear. It couldn't have been clear. And I just like to say, if I can make my plug, she did her job. Americans need to do theirs. Get engaged, get the facts, go to kamalaharris. Com, go down and do some door knocking. Talk to your neighbor, talk to your relatives. It was clear tonight that there is only one person on that stage that should be President of the United States, and that was Kamala Harris. One of the more interesting and, I think, unpredictable moments in the debate, Governor Walls, was a back and forth with the former President about whether or not he believes that he won or lost the last election. He has made some contrary remarks about this in recent days. He tried to claim, I think not very credibly, and was called out by one of the moderators, tried to claim that those recent comments were meant sarcastically as if he had been joking.

It really didn't seem at the moment like he was. The reason this isn't just about 2020, it's not just about four years ago, it's about now, is because Presumably, his attitude toward American elections carries through from the last one to this next one. I have to ask if you and your campaign and vice President Harris are fully expecting that even if you wipe the floor with him, even if you win by a lot in November, that he is going to enlist the entire Republican Party, both nationally and in every state that he can, in trying to claim falsely that he won. Yeah, that's who this guy is. Let's be very clear, This is a threat to the democracy. It is the most treasonous thing you can do to undermine what was fair and free election. He's never had anybody support anything other than a pillow guy, support his insane rhetoric around this. But look, this is dangerous. 140 police officers were hurt and some were killed. This has caused issues across this country. The campaign, we're ready for this. We know it's going to be a tough race. We know that he's not going to probably concede.

That's why I say, once again to Americans, get out there, get engaged, make sure that we're doing everything necessary. I'm going to give a huge thank you to those election workers, folks like my mom who's been a poll watcher for years, folks that are on the Republican Democrats' Independence who do the hard work of democracy for no money. They're being put at risk by the recklessness of Donald Trump because he can't, at nearly 80 years old, do something that my fourth graders, when I taught them, did. When you lose a game, you go shake hands, and you congratulate the other person, and you move on. We're in this together. This The guy cares nothing about the democracy. He cares nothing about the American people. He cares about himself and himself only. Again, and I appreciate the moderators calling him out on this, request him on it, making it clear that he's not lost. But look, this guy is a threat. This is going to be a close election. We know it comes down to the battleground states. For all the listeners out there, we need you. We need you to get engaged. We need you to send a message to this.

I just came a few minutes ago from talking with Mesa Mayor Giles, a Republican who says, I'm a strong Republican. I don't agree with all of your positions, but you are standing in the breach of democracy. Donald Trump is a threat to that, and he proudly stood there with he and his family. That's the type of things we need Americans to do across this country. Kamala Harris is going to be that President for all of us. You don't have to agree with every policy, but it's very clear she trusts this democracy. She puts the Constitution above everything else. He doesn't. I'm going to get the opportunity to debate with someone who's on the stage because Mike Pentz sure isn't, because he was willing to put the Constitution above Donald Trump. We get to continue this conversation over the next 56 days, but it's absolutely critical people know what the threat is. Governor Walls, I want to ask you You're prepped for that debate with JD Vance coming up. While we have been talking, somebody has just handed me something, and I'm going to do a not-very-TV thing, and I'm going to read it to you in totality.

I'm going to read you the whole thing because I don't think you know about this, but this was just posted online by a woman you might have heard of whose name is Taylor Swift. She has posted this online along with a photo of her cat, and I'm going to read to you what she just posted. Like many of you, I watch the debate tonight. If you haven't already, now is a great time to do your research on the issues at hand and the stances these candidates take on the topics that matter to you the most. As a voter, I make sure to watch and read everything I can about their proposed policies and plans for of this country. Recently, I was made aware that AI of me, quote me, falsely endorsing Donald Trump's presidential run, was posted to his site. It really conjured up my fears around AI and the dangers of spreading this information. It brought me to the conclusion that I need to be very transparent about my actual plans for this election as a voter. The simplest way to combat misinformation is with the truth. Then she says, I will be casting my vote for Kamala Harris and Tim Walsh in the 2024 presidential election.

I'm voting for Kamala Harris because she fights for the rights and causes I believe need a warrior to champion them.

I think she is a steady-handed, gifted leader, and I believe we can accomplish so much more in this country if we're led by calm and not chaos. I was so heartened and impressed by her selection of running mate, Tim Walls, who has been standing up for LGBTQ+ rights, IVF, and a woman's right to her own body for decades. I've done my research and I've made my choice. Your research is all yours to do and the choice is yours to make. I also want to say, especially to first-time voters, remember that in order to vote, you have to be registered. I also find it's much easier to vote early.

I will link where to register and find early voting dates and info in my story. With love and hope, Taylor Swift signed Childless Cat Lady.

I have to get your response to that, Mr. Governor. All those things, I am incredibly grateful, first of all, to Taylor Swift. I say that also as a cat owner, a fellow cat owner. You heard it. We know that it's there. That was eloquent, and it was clear. And that's the type of courage we need in America to stand up. We've seen it out of those Republicans who were at the DNC. We've seen it out of women who would like to have their own personal lives kept personal but are forced to go out there because they nearly died because they can't get abortion services in a pregnancy. Now you have somebody like Taylor Swift coming out, making that very clear. This would be the opportunity, Swifties. Kamalaherris. Com. Get on there. Give us a hand. Get things going. Governor Walsh, you do have your own debate with JD Vance that is coming up and coming up quickly. Have you started prepping for that yet, or do you have thoughts already about how you're going to approach that? Yeah, I need to look. He's a law guy. I'm a public school teacher, so we know where he's at on that.

Sure. I think it's a good opportunity to contrast where we're at. You'll hear me talk like I have about things that impact Americans, making sure they have the opportunity to thrive, making sure that we're being factual in how we talk about that.

And so I'm looking forward to it. I'll work hard. That's what I do. I fully expect that Senator Vance, as a United States Senator, a Yale law guy, he'll come well-prepared. But I think what you saw tonight is the American public is on the side of truth. The American public is on the side of things that impact their lives in a positive way. And I'll continue to put that out and continue to lift up this incredible vision that Kamala Harris brought out tonight, this incredible just change in our politics to be joyful, hopeful. Look, she did what it is. We can be joyful, but don't mistake her kindness for weakness, because she called that out, and I said, I did enough lunchroom supervision. You put bullies in their place, and she put a bully in his place all night. Right before our eyes, Donald Trump got angrier and smaller and more irrelevant. We need to keep the pressure on for 56 days and win this thing. We don't know yet what the voters will think of tonight's debate.

We don't even know yet how many people have tuned in and watched it. The immediate reaction from the political observers who I serve with here at MSNBC was that your running mate, Vice President Harris, essentially wiped the floor with Donald Trump. Tonight, Joy Reid said the word that she chose was destroyed. Chris Hayes and Laurence O'Donnell had an interesting colloquy between them as to whether or not this might have been the best televised presidential debate performance ever, not just against Donald Trump, but in any presidential debate. Again, we don't know how viewers at large will view it, but I I think, at least here, our tiny, weird focus group thinks that she did very well. Given that, it doesn't necessarily lend itself toward an obvious next choice. You could just leave it at this and decide that that was a pretty good way to leave yourself in the minds of voters before they head into the voting booth, or you could agree to another debate. I mean, if Donald Trump agreed to do it, do you think that Vice President Harris should debate him again after tonight?

Look, I don't want to speak for her, but I would be there encouraging her to do it every day if she could. We know there's going to be something new. It's the same old tired agenda that he brings every time.

She's bringing this new hopefulness, this ability to be able to articulate what Americans are asking for. The agenda that he brings up, no one's asking for that. In his mind, 99% of people, whatever that is, it's him and whoever else is in his head.

Those are the people that are thinking that way. Look, I shall make that decision.

We agreed to these We will carry them out. We'll see where it goes. But again, I would just encourage Americans, don't believe this thing's over by any stretch. This thing is going to be a margin of error race. We know that it'll be close. We know that there will be attempts to try and discourage people from voting. But Taylor Swift's right. Get registered early, get engaged, and voting's the entry point. Maybe make a few phone calls. Do a door knock. If you can contribute, those are the things that help us take this message to every corner of the country. Democratic vice presidential nominee, Minnesota governor Tim Walsh. Sir, I know a lot, a lot, a lot of pressure on your schedule tonight. Thank you so much for spending some of it here with us. Thanks, Rachel. All right. Good luck, sir. Joy. I just want to point out that Taylor Swift has 283 million followers, and 1 million people have already liked that Instagram post. It already has 1 million likes, and it already came out during our interview with Tim Walsh. It happened a little before he came. Yes. It's not even the first post she posted.

She's posted three other things since then. Taylor Swift is not just a celebrity. She actually commands a humongous squad of particularly young white women.

I think it's important to point that out because one of the places that Democrats have never been able to do well is among white voters, Even young white voters, even young white women. Dobbs has changed a lot, but you've also had people like Taylor Swift come in and culturally put forward a version of young womanhood that is super modern. She has been relentlessly attacked by the JD Vance world as being a bad role model because she is unmarried. She now is leaning into the exact demographic that JD Vance relentlessly targets, that he relentlessly disrespects. She commands so much popularity among her super fans that they've changed the NFL in a lot of ways.

It's not a small endorsement. It's a big deal. A lot of her fans are too young to vote and too young to buy concert tickets. And don't have revenue streams to afford the concert tickets.

Taylor Swift's Fandam is made up of her fans and their parents, their moms and their dads.

If there were ever a campaign in a candidacy, Taylor made for a push for girl dads on choice, on eliminating exceptions for rape and incest, on the positive role model and leadership and humility and joy that Harris is bringing, this may be a door swinging open for the girl dads for Harris ever.

Can I just say as a hopeless, bleeding-heart liberal who's also an enormous football fan, I didn't think we were going to get football in the national divorce, but I've with the Travis-Kelsey situation.

I did not see that happening, but somehow we're ending up with it, and I'm just going to say I will take it.

And note that Kendrick Lamar is going to be in New Orleans, and he's going to be the halftime show. It's also a theme of the Harris campaign is They Not Like Us. In a real way, to your point about Taylor Swift and Travis Kelsey and what that is a pop cultural phenomenon.

This idea of this idea of the weirdness and extremism and JD Vans going on all these podcasts where you're in the manosphere, where you talk about the purpose of a postmenopausal woman and all this stuff. It is really true that this fringe weirdness is a huge part of what is the modern right, what is the Donald Trump coalition, and the RFK endorse and all this stuff. It is a strange cultural moment, which that is their play. Their play is the RFK vote and the Manasphere podcast versus the Taylor Swift, Travis Kelsi. It's the Argentina election. Jd Vance is the protege, the only jobs he has really ever had are as the protege of an eccentric right-wing German billionaire who says democracy should have never been attempted, and everything's gone downhill since women had the right to vote. That's the only person he's ever had jobs working for. For real? And who bought him his US Senate seat, $15 million.

We would give him that Senate seat. It's the only election he's ever run in. They put him as vice President to Donald Trump. They could have picked somebody to normalize Donald Trump, but instead, they picked the intern to the eccentric billionaire who doesn't believe in democracy and who spent a good part of his own political life trying to convince his fellow rich, eccentric, right-wing billionaires that they should move to floating shipping containers in the middle of the sea because no land based continent could contain their brilliant.

By the way, he is now the person with the second closest finger on the button to a 78-year-old declining senior citizen who you can see right is cognitively declining.

And not only that, but they are running against the whole culture. It's Beyoncé and Taylor Swift and Kendrick Lamar. It's Budweiser and the NFL. It's all of it. It's all of it. But it's a 50-50 race. I hate to rent this back to reality, but it's literally a tide race. I've never been impressed by celebrity endorsements. I think they are helpful to the base that you already have. They tend to be people who the base already identifies with. This is someone who crosses it all. This is, I think, the most important celebrity endorsement we've ever seen in a presidential campaign, especially because it is so close and it can make that difference. The Harris for President campaign now has the two most perfectly timed and most important endorsements of this campaign. Joe Biden's 27-minute timed endorsement after he said, I'm not the candidate. Perfect timing. It just put a rocket on her to the nomination. This, about 27 minutes after the end of the debate, and it's so important, I think, to the people who are going to be consuming that Taylor Swift endorsement, including those fathers of eight-year-old girls, and that she said, I watched the debate.

I didn't decide this yesterday. This is a new candidate. It's a new candidate for all of us. I watched a more than 90-minute debate. I watched this candidate against the other candidate, and I thought about it, and here I am, and here's my endorsement. The timing on it is absolutely exquisite. The wording of it is flawless and perfect, right down to the cat lady stuff. For someone who's never been impressed by a celebrity endorsement, this is perfect and powerful. When news breaks, go beyond the headlines with the MSNBC app. Watch your favorite shows live. Get analysis from live blogs to in-depth essays and the latest updates on the 2024 election. Go beyond the what to understand the why. Download the app now at msnbc. Com/app.