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Hello, and welcome to How to Win 2024. It's Thursday morning, September fifth, by the way, opening of the NFL season. I have to do this, Simone. We always did this when Jen and I were co-hosting. We have to talk a little football and Chiefs play the Ravens tonight.

Okay.

It'll be a game. I'm Claire McCascoll, and I'm here with my guest copilot today. I'm thrilled to have MSNBC's own Simone Sanders Townsend. She is a former senior advisor and Chief Spokes for Vice President Harris, and now co-host The Weekend with Alicia Menendez and Michael Steele. I am honored to be on the air with her from time to time, and she is terrific. Hey, Simone, thank you for taking some time to be with us this morning.

It is good to see you and talk to you, and I'm happy to be here. Every time I see Claire, she's like, Call me Claire. I'm like, Senator. She's like, Call me Claire. I'm going to do my best to call her Claire today.

Good. The thing is, it makes me feel younger. I used to make the joke that people would say, Well, why would you want to go to Washington at this point in your career? Why would you want to be a senator? I said, Hey, at my age, it's the only place in the country I can feel like a hot young chick. Okay.

I like that. I like that. That's still accurate, okay?

Turning from humor to really tragedy, we need to do a shout out to George Georgia. If the school year has begun, so have the slaughter of innocent children. As of Wednesday afternoon, we lost two teachers and two students, at least nine injured, and a 14-year-old is in custody, having used, of course, an AR-15 to mow down innocent people at a high school in Georgia. Let's listen to what the vice president said. It's just outrageous that every day in our country, in the United States, of America, that parents have to send their children to school, worried about whether or not their child will come home alive. It's senseless. We got to stop it. We have to end this epidemic of gun violence in our country once and for all. It doesn't have to be this way. It doesn't have to be this way. You know, NBC just did a youth poll this week, and it showed that Harris has a 50% support among young people. I got to think this gun issue is one that the young people really care deeply about. What do you think, Simone? Could we do more on guns if we just managed to take the House, hold the Senate, and put Kamala Harrison as President of the United States?

I mean, I think it is a necessity. Look, I think guns is the issue that speaks to the youngest voters, the Gen Xers, but also the millennials, the voters my age, but also older voters, Gen X and above, because it's something that touches us all in many different ways. When I saw the reports of the shooting, all I could think about was my nine-year-old stepson and how just I remember before the end of the school year, last year, they were on lockdown because someone in the area had a gun. It's unfathomable. I'm used to fire drills, right? That's what I had to do when I was in school. I'm sure you had to fire drills, Claire. But these children now are doing active shooter drills. You have to explain to children why the school was locked down. You have to ask them to talk about, just to to to to to parse through what they are feeling This is not something that we should be putting our children through. While I think it is it's unrealistic to say we're going to prevent every single mass shooting, but it is very realistic to say we can put some regulations and some guardrails in place to ensure people do not just have...

Young people that have no business having access to a gun have one. Kamala Harris as President, with a Democratic Senate and a Democratic House, could do that, and I think they would do that. Voters need to know that that is something absolutely on the ballot. But my heart breaks for those students. I think about the teachers. I'm sure that those teachers did everything they could to save those students. This is the beginning of the school year. It is devastating.

In technology today, we use our fingerprints to open our computers, right? We can use our faces to open our computers. They could easily put those on guns. That way, you would have a 14-year-old that got a hold of a gun at his home, wouldn't be able to fire that weapon. That wouldn't stop somebody from owning a weapon and target practicing and hunting. And by the way, the weapons of war, we do not need weapons of war and multiple magazines and bump stocks and all that crap. I've never met a hunter, and I was raised by a hunter, and I was born in rural Missouri, where everyone had shotguns. I've never known that they need weapons of war.

You are not killing deer with weapons of war. No, you're not. I'm from Nebraska. Okay, we go turkey hunting in Nebraska. You're not killing turkeys with weapons of war. We just have to get very serious and realistic about what we're talking about here.

All right, now into the war room. This is fun part of the pod where we I get to pretend like I'm a political strategist, and I know that you really are a political strategist. With Labor Day, all but a faint memory at this point. We're 61 days out. The campaigns are kicking into high gear. Well, one of them is. The fat orange guy is sitting on a golf cart, mostly, and ordering cheeseburger after he does his 18th hole. But Harris and Walsh are out there killing it, man. They are killing themselves. They're working really hard. I want to take some time to look at the strategy and Trump's meandering, incoherent speeches and his light schedule. Then Senator LaFontza Butler of California will join me to look at the labor vote, making wages and economy a central part of the Harris campaign, and how important it is to keep electing women to office.

In every state. Then we're going to get into Our debate prep stance. Claire and I both have some thoughts about this. We're going to preview the first presidential debate of the cycle coming up next Tuesday.

Okay, so let's start with my favorite part. If I were in the room, if you were in the room with Vice President Kamala Harris and Tim Walls, you were in the room. This is really cool to do this because you were actually in the room. It's anybody's race. I think they are appropriate to keep telling everyone, and I think we need to underscore this. It is close. Yeah. It is close. This is a nail-biter particularly in the swing states, in the battleground states that are going to decide the Electoral College vote.

Absolutely.

Let's talk about that. Is she the change candidate? Carville says that change candidates win. How has How does she managed? If she is the change candidate, how does she manage that?

It's cool, right? A sitting vice president as a change candidate.

What does she need to do at this point? What should they be focusing on to win every single day in this cycle?

Well, look, I think one of the things they're doing is not taking anything for granted when it comes to time. As we had this conversation, the vice president is in debate prep, and she's prepping in Pittsburgh. Now, you could do debate prep at the Naval Observatory in Washington, DC or at Howard University, which is, I think, where she's done some sessions previously this cycle. When I was in debate prep with her in 2020, that is where we did debate prep at Howard. But taking the candidate out of Washington, DC, putting them into a battleground state allows earned media coverage while they're there, not doing any events, just debate prepping. They're obviously going to go out, get something to eat. There's going to be a OTR that will be covered on the local news. That is just a good, quick way to get some earned media that is not a heavy lift at while still getting the business done. So things like that.

Tell people what OTR is.

Off the record, stop.

There you go. There you go. Something that people, that press corps is not necessarily knowing about ahead of time.

Yes, but you tell them right before that you're going to go somewhere, and then you bring them into the space so that they can catch the video and the audio of the candidate doing this off the record stop, meaning it was not something that was scheduled previously. And oftentimes, it's visiting a local small business or stopping to get something to eat. And the candidate will, if you've done good advance work, unlike the advance people, your folks have gone in and made sure that the people in the business want the candidate there. So maybe we'll see an OTR, an off the record stop today. But I do think that the campaign has the right tone and tenor that they keep saying, the vice president, keep saying, We are the underdogs. And they are the underdogs, to be very clear. I know it feels all joyous and great, but if you look at the numbers, if you really drill down in some of these battleground states, it is very close. So they have the right tone, I believe. And tone is important. And they just have to keep talking policy, which I know it sounds crazy because Donald Trump doesn't actually talk policy.

But when you talk to voters out there, I've been traveling across the country with Melissa Murray and talking to Black women. Every time, especially younger Black women, they say, Oh, we don't know much about her, or I think I like her, but I want to know what the policies are. So the policy is important to some of the voters.

Yeah, she did great work yesterday on small businesses and separating herself from Biden by saying the tax that she would collect on capital gains is lower than what Biden had proposed. Here's the thing that you talk about squeezing the margins. I mean, this is what I lived. The margins in those red counties are what decide whether you win or not. I think that's really important for people who are the base of our party to understand. Residential campaigns are one in the middle. They're not one on the edges. Now, we need excitement on the edges to get people to show up, to get people to turn out. But those swing voters, those last few percentage points in Pennsylvania and Michigan and Wisconsin, those aren't people who have strong opinions on the left or the right. Those are people who have voted for both Barack Obama and Donald Trump or Donald Trump and Joe Biden. So be patient with the campaign's messaging. If you don't think they're talking enough about some of the more progressive priorities, it's not because they don't have those values. It's because they've got to show the middle of the country that they're ready to govern, that they understand the practicalities of governing, and that they're going to be balanced and work across the aisle.

Really important. So what about abortion?

Well, I think it's going to be a driving factor. I was struck by the idea that I literally was very taken aback that JD Vance said in an interview that women are going to go to vote on things that really matter to them, their bread and butter issues, and abortion isn't one of them. To me, That is a fundamental misunderstanding of really what the landscape is across the country. Now that you have some type of abortion amendment, reproductive freedom amendment on the ballot in 10 different states, that will be a boon, I think, to turnout. So one could argue that talking about the issues, understanding your state and the electorate in that state is what's going to make a difference. I like how the campaign talks about freedom because it is. It's about freedom, but at the end of the day, it's about when you are in the doctor's office, do you want your doctor to have to pick up the phone and phone it in to the capital?

Yeah. And by the way, Nicole and I talked about this on Deadline Whitehouse on Tuesday. Men, 60% of American men support reproductive freedom for women. 60%, Simone That's high. So men, that's really high. I think we sometimes get so focused on women and how we are going to move to the polls, and I'm excited about that, and there's going to be a gender gap. I'm confident of that. But men, men are going to show up, too. In Missouri, if your daughter is raped, if you're a father and your daughter is raped, the government says she's got to carry that child to term and force her to give birth to it. I think men are going to show up. So what's Trump up to? What do you think?

I think he was at his golf club, right? He was golfing and posting on his social media site.

Yeah, let's listen to some of him in Michigan last week. So people get the flavor of what... I don't know how he sounds now. Okay, run that. She destroyed the city of San Francisco, and I own a big building there. I shouldn't talk about this, but that's okay. I don't give a damn because this is what I'm doing. I should say it's the finest city in the world selling. Get the hell out of there, right? But I can't do that. I don't care. I lost billions of dollars. Somebody said, What do you think he lost? I said, Probably 2, 3 billion. That's okay. I don't care. They said, Do you think Can he do it again? And that's the least of it. Nobody. They always say that... I don't know if you know, Lincoln was horribly treated. Jefferson was pretty horribly. Andrew Jackson, they say, was the worst of all, that he was treated worse than any other president. I said, Do that study again because I think there's nobody close to Trump. I even got shot. Who the hell knows where that came from, right? He seems He used to be way more ramble pro.

I mean, it's not making much sense. He's trying to say that there's some method to this. I don't think so.

What do you think? I think he is definitely rambling. It is very interesting how he talks about San Francisco Because he always says some version of, Oh, San Francisco 10 years ago was great. San Francisco 12 years ago. You know who was the DA of San Francisco 10, 12 years ago? Kamala Harris, okay? So I just think he needs a consultant calendar. Donald Trump, I just think he's reeling from a couple of things. One, if you remember, he didn't actually like being President. He didn't like being President. He didn't like the job. I don't think he enjoys campaigning. I think he enjoys crowds and people shouting his name, but I don't think he enjoys doing the work. So it's a reminder that he's literally doing this because of all of the legal trouble that he is in. It's just a reminder. That's why Donald Trump is here. He has no strategy, if you will. I just don't see Claire how this wins an election. I know that there are people out there that still want to vote for Donald Trump, right? But infrastructure is important. And then your candidate bolstering and using their time to actively earn people's votes is how you compete in a race.

And Donald Trump is not doing... Those OTR stops I talked about, he's not doing those. He's rambling on a stage about things that don't make sense. And then he's attacking his opponent on her looks and just wondering if she's Black or not. These are not things I think that resonate with those voters that you need to help close the margins with.

Yeah, almost 60% of the ads they're running are attacking her. I will say on the Harris side, they had the infrastructure in place, and you and I know how important that is. The ground game is huge. They have committed more resources to moving voters to the polls identifying our voters than ever before in a presidential campaign. They have raised more money. They're even so flush. They're giving down-ballet races serious cash early enough that they can use it efficiently. They They are staying disciplined on message. They are working hard every day. Meanwhile, he's trying to show that you can have a rally a week where you ramble and say weird shit about Hannah Mulder and electric boats and sharks and spend a bunch of time in the middle of the night sending stuff on true social that's just bizarre and get elected president. I just don't think it's going to happen. I mean, I'm not saying that this is a done deal. He's got a lot of loyal people that are going to stand in front of a train for But it feels like that they're in a good place right now in terms of their being prepared.

I mean, just the Vance Donut Shop is a showing of how professional one campaign is than the other. Have you ever seen a sadder encounter of a vice presidential He in that donut shop.

I was like, did anybody advance the Donut Shop? Why would you all send? I mean, look, for all the thoughts that I have about JD Vance, he's a sitting United States Senator for crying out loud. You got the Senator in this Donut Shop looking like a fool.

What is going on? He looked like a fool.

It's crazy. To your point, though, can I just note that it is... Yeah, I think Donald Trump absolutely has a ceiling. You playing the sound is very important. And more people need to play Donald Trump's sound because he's benefiting from being out of sight, out of mind, because his posts are not on the site, probably not on his Twitter. They're on his little social media site, Truth Social. And so people are not seeing the crazy entering their ether in a way that they did the last election. And he has gotten worse.

Okay, before we wrap, Simone, I want to ask you about this. You and Melissa Murray are hosting an MSNBC special on September 29th, Black Women in America: The Road to 2024. Tell me about your special and why it's important for people to tune in on September 29th on MSNBC.

We are so excited for this. Look, Black women, the last election, they voted at 90 % for now President Biden and Vice President Kamala Harris. They literally helped propel them to the White House. But that is a drop off from 2016, and that's even a drop off from 2012 and 2008. Black women are not a monolith. I think we often think that, oh, Black voters, specifically, they're going to support Democrats. But if you really take a look and you just peel back the layer, you'll see that there's a lot of nuance there. And Black women are going to decide this election all across this country, not just in the cities, but in the suburbs and even in some rural areas. So we went all across the country talking to Black women, and we really just wanted to get a feel for what they were saying, how they think about this election. You think you know, Black women's voting patterns. You think you know Black women's ideology, but you actually have no idea. We are just excited to bring this to you on September 29th at 9:00 PM on MSNBC.

That's great. Okay, we're going to pause here. Up next, California Senator Lufanza Butler will join me to talk about the importance of fair pay, a working class economy, more representation by women in office, especially in this coming election. Back in a moment.

From executive producer, Rachel Maddow, MSNBC Films presents From Russia with Lev, the larger than life journey of former Trump insider, Lev Parnis, and the outrageous scheme that led to Donald Trump's first impeachment.

I was recruited to start this secret mission to dig up dirt at Joe and Hunter Biden.

It was turning American foreign policy into an episode of The Apprentice.

This was a mission impossible, a mission stupid.

From Russia with Lev, Friday, September 20th at 9:00 PM Eastern on MSNBC. Cnbc. Only on Meet the Press. Just days after the presidential debate, how did it impact the race and what will it change in the final sprint to election day? Kristen Walker sits down with VP nominee JD Vance and former presidential candidate, Pete Buttagej. On Meet the Press. Listen to the whole episode now, wherever you get your podcasts.

Welcome back. The old James Carville adage, It's the Economy's stupid, still holds true decades later. While reproductive rights and immigration in the war in Gaza are hot button issues that really matter in this election cycle, how people are feeling about their ability to pay for groceries and afford their home is always going to be front and center in every presidential election. One of the people fighting behind the scenes for these issues is Senator LaFontza Butler of California. She's recently emerged on the national stage, giving a rousing speech at last month's Democratic National Convention, a. K. A. The Love Fest.

Conning young people who simply want a good education is unthinkable. Stiffing hardworking laborers like Donald Trump did in Atlantic City is unthinkable. Bragging about having ripped away a woman's freedom to choose what she does with her own body is unthinkable. Democrats, Americans, we deserve better.

Before Senator Butler took office, she spent years as a leader in the labor movement and then as President of Emily's List, which during her time recruited and supported over 600 women to run for elected office. She joins me now to talk about the importance of a fair economic shake in this election. Welcome, Senator Butler. I'm so tickled to have you. Thank you for being here.

Thanks so much for having me.

All right, let's start with this economy thing. I think that there are too many Democrats that wanted to hang out with the statistics and just say over and over again, Well, inflation is Coming down and the stock market is doing great, and we've created 14, 15, 16 million jobs. They just gloss over the fact that for many Americans, some feel like they're treading water But many of them feel like they're drowning, that no matter what they do, no matter how hard they work, they just can't get ahead. That is a really big deal in this election. I think our vice president understands that. I know you do. I know her talking about small business and the affordability of housing and price gouging is all related to this reality. Why don't you give us a little bit of your take on what you see as the most important things that the Harris Walls ticket needs to stress to really make sure people know that she sees them and that she understands where they are right now trying to pay the bills?

Claire, thanks so much for that question. It's interesting that as the intellectual debate persisted, I found myself being so frustrated with those statistician Democrats, where for so long, being a leader in the labor movement, my job was to listen to people. I have found that to be one of the most important things that we can do as not only public servants who are seeking to earn someone's greatest trust by earning their vote, but just as human beings and the importance of connection and restoring civility in our politics and in our discourse. And so listening is incredibly key. And for so long, it felt like we were rolling past the very voices that were going to be determinative in this election. And so I think what the Harris Walls ticket is doing in this moment is reflecting back what they have heard from the American people. When you sit and talk to families all over this country, even places like California, they're talking about the driving costs of what they're spending their money on, housing, how it's so unaffordable right now, prescription drugs, how our seniors and even young people who are having to take life-sustaining drugs in many cases, their families are struggling to pay for it.

The cost of groceries. I was just in the grocery store the other day. I know how much a gallon of milk costs, particularly for a growing 10-year-old, and the cost that families are facing right now. And so I think what the Harris Walls ticket is trying to do is in this moment, talk back to the people who have been talking to them. Let's figure out beyond the political rhetoric of it all and how the stock market is doing and how job growth is happening. But they're saying, I hear you on that gallon of milk and that loaf of bread. Here's my plan to address it. Yes, I need Congress to work with me, but if you give me a Democratic Senate and a Democratic house, we can make it happen. They're saying, I hear you on rent and the an out-of-reach possibility it has become for young people to own and buy a home. We want to change that for the next generation of Americans that are coming up and reaching for these opportunities. I think there's a sincerity, there is an empathy, but most importantly, there is a communication that is back and forth, that is listening to the American people and being a representative government, determined to do something to fix those challenges that people are facing.

Before we get to Emily This is a nice list, which is near and dear to my heart for a whole bunch of reasons, many of which are personal in terms of my political career, I want to talk about unions because you were a union organizer for SEIU in California and rose through the ranks People understand SEIU is the Service Workers Union. A lot of people that take care of people you love are members of SEIU, or they should be. A lot of people that provide you services in many different fields are members of SEIU. Talk about what you see, because one of the big things that has occurred is Democrats, I think, have gotten discouraged about the rank and file voting for Democrats, about the rank and file staying with the Democratic Party. What do you attribute that to and what's your take right now? What percentage of the rank and file union members in this country do you think will vote for the Democratic ticket in November?

Claire, when I started growing up in the labor movement, the president of SEIU was a guy, a fellow by the name of Andy Stern.

No Andy.

Andy. Andy would always talk to me and talk to us in SEIU about how he saw the labor movement in three ways. It was male, pale, and stale. And that it was our job to do something about it. I feel like I was at the right place at the right time doing the right thing, and though it was hard to be a young Black woman, to come up as a journey person organizer. Traveling the country, helping people to to form their unions was probably one of the greatest privileges next to serving my country in the United States Senate. Seiu has always led from this place of bold action, of choosing to do things together as a union, no matter what city you were in or state you were in, but that we were one union, one team, fighting in the same direction. I think there have been efforts to continue to do that by all unions. And similar to your first question, people have grown very frustrated. When you feel like your union is doing all that they can and you still aren't getting enough wage increases to cover the cost of interest or the rising prices of groceries, you're going to feel incredibly frustrated and not listened to.

And there are some things that are within the union's ability to control, and there are some things that are not. The election of President Trump was an incredible setback for working families across this country, where Supreme Court decisions that led to the weakening of union representation, and the Janis decision was a blow to unions like SCIU, like AFSCME, and our teachers across the country. The refusal to do anything to raise the minimum wage, the federal minimum wage in this country, led unions like SCIU to just go out and do it in the States and go out and do it in the cities. But declaring that $15 an hour wasn't about trying to make our companies poorer, but frankly, to reward the work and productivity of workers across the country. I think where we are as a union movement, as a country, is that we're on, I believe, the beginning of a horizon, the work of the AFL LCI-O and unions like the UAW and Sean Fain and the new leader of SCIU, April Verrett, Randy Weingarden at AFT, Becky Williams at NEA. Look, I think that this is a labor movement. It's often said, this ain't your grandfather's union.

I think that's the moment that we're in. Young workers want to be a part of the union at a higher rate than ever before in this country right now. I think the number was 81% last Labor Day for workers under 30 who wanted to be a part of a union. I think we're, again, at the tip of the horizon. This is a key place, I believe, for Vice President Harris, Governor Walls, to really engage both the labor movement and those who are not yet in the union to truly build this opportunity economy where everyone has the opportunity to thrive and to be a part of a union if they want.

So Emily's List, Early Money is Like Yeast, for people who are listening that don't know what that acronym stands for. It started What, 40, 50 years ago? I don't even want to say. Forty. Yeah, 40 years ago. One of my mentors, Harriet Woods, who ran for the Senate when I was a pup, was one of the first recipients of Emily's List Money. The founder, Ellen Malcolm, did a wonderful job growing the organization. It's been in great hands, including yours, through the years. I know they are really active, especially with the falling of the Dobbs decision, because this was for pro-choice democratic women to recruit them, support them, train them, and get them money early so that they could use the money in the most effective and efficient way. Talk about your former successes, the successes of your former organization in the midterms, and why do we still have so many races that go uncontested? I mean, what can we do? I try, but I think we need to talk to everybody who's listening to this podcast about them examining why they're not running for office. Even in places that they may not win, it still matters.

Yeah, I think I'm so proud of the work that I was able to do at Emily's List before being asked by Governor Newsom to finish the term of Senator Feinstein. It was an opportunity that taught me so much about the sacrifices that people, but particularly women, make to run for office at every level of government. The work that we were able to do in partnership with Planned Parenthood and what was then NARAL, but now Reproductive Freedom for All, just right after the Dobbs decision was, I think, deeply impactful for 2022. When every pundit out there predicted a red wave, it was the issue of abortion and the work of these organizations and organizations all across the country who helped to turn that around. But it was primarily because we had the best candidates. It's been the work of Emily's List for now almost 40 years to make sure that we were recruiting the best candidates, putting them in position to win and to compete The resources that are required to run for office are enormous and is a great... Remains a great barrier for particularly women to run for office. We are independent and fierce-minded, and asking people for money is not our first place of comfort for us.

That's the incredible role that I think Emily Slis continues to play, helping women to effectively raise money and ask for people to invest in them and in their candidacy, and actually being able to do it at a time when our nation had elected its first and highest ever serving woman with Kamala Harris as vice President with Joe Biden, I think was a cherry on the Sunday, and me getting the opportunity to do it. But it was also the opportunity for us to do the work of advancing her in that moment. It was a time when she was under the most heinous attacks online, the miss and disinformation, the sexualization, the racist comments. We were able to start a Madam Vice President Project and initiative to put out to help people understand who the vice president was. For every woman that's out there, yes, there are more women running for office now more than ever, particularly women of color, Latina, African-American, AAPI women are themselves out there for office, and the bottom is low. To be at the highest is, yes, an accomplishment, but we can all do better.

We can all do better. I used to do the blouse speech. I used to tell women, Okay, I know you've gone out and bought a blouse. Maybe it was on sale. You got it home, you tried it on, it gapped in front, it never fit right. It's still hanging in your closet with a tag on it. But, man, it was such a damn bargain. I just told women, Write that check that you paid for that blouse that sits in your closet until you finally give it away to a candidate you care about. Get used to writing. I said, Please put blouse on the memo line. To this day, people tell me that they still get checks that say blouse on the memo line. It's like women always saw money as security. Men saw money as power. I used to tell women, the ultimate security is power. It is way more important to elect women- Say it again to the people in the back. Who are going to protect you and protect the things you care about and protect your children. Way more important than that damn blouse. The point is, even if you're helping Republicans, women giving money is important.

Women asking for money is something that we've gotten much better. I used to practice in the mirror, Senator. I used to look in the mirror and say, I need you to give me money. Because it was so foreign to me when I started. I got really good at it after a while, but it was foreign. Okay, so you're on a letter. I want to hit this before we let you go to Merritt Garland about protecting election workers. Do you believe the Department of Justice is doing what it needs to do to protect our election workers in this election cycle?

It's one of those metrics, Clarita. Unfortunately, we won't really know until election day. I can listen to the words and read the reports of what the team from DOJ has sent over to my office in response to the letter, and the words on the page look good. The calls that we have sound great. But the attacks that have just spiked in the last few years directed towards these public servants is unacceptable in a democracy like ours. I'm going to continue to be one of those voices who will nag incessantly about the investments that we are making, the coordination that is required at the federal level, working with our state and local governments to administer these elections, but most importantly, to protect these public servants, who's only offering is to do the best that they can for their neighbor to cast their ballot. We've got to protect them, and we've got to, most importantly, punish those who intimidate, who threaten, who harass. There have got to be consequences. To me, those are the things that I want to see from our Department of Justice, from our attorney general. What are the consequences for folks who do these types of activities?

We've seen some consequences for the J6 defendants, even though the orange guy eating a cheeseburger on the golf cart wants to pardon them all. I will say that consequences, and I love it that Ruby Freeman and her mother have gotten financial justice. I love it that they're trying to take Giuliani's Yankees World Series rings. That just makes my heart beat a little faster. I'm just so proud of them for fighting as hard as they But accountability is really key. I certainly hope everybody who votes in November, and I hope all of you do and get all of your friends to vote and make sure everybody's registered, thank the people that are working the polls when you're there, because most of them are just volunteers. Most of them are just like you and me, and they just want to help out. I think they make maybe 10 or 15 bucks a day in Missouri for doing it. It's not like this is something that they are, Oh, I'm going to go in there and see if I can't mess stuff up. They are just trying to help out, and they deserve a kind word from anybody who's voting because they make the system work.

It's been such a pleasure to have you. I see why Kamala likes you so much, why she thinks you're just better than slice bread, as my grandmother used to say. I'm proud of the service you've provided our country in so many different roles, and I look forward to talking to you again in the future. Thank you so much for being with us, Senator.

Thank you for having me. It's been great.

It's been great. Lafontza Butler represents California in the United States Senate. She is a longtime labor advocate and former head of Emily's List. Next up, my co-host, Simone Sanders Townsend, is back with me to preview next Tuesday's first presidential debate. Back with that in a moment.

Sunday, September 29th on MSNBC. Simone Sanders Townsend and Melissa Murray explore the power Black women hold in this year's election. Black Women in America, Sunday, September 29th at 09:00 PM Eastern on MSNBC and streaming on Peacock.

Welcome back. My co-host, MSNBC's own, Simone Sanders Townsend, is still with me. Okay, now we're going to talk debate. I'm not going to lie. I know you won't either. This is a big deal. She's got to be feeling a tremendous amount of pressure. Anybody who says debates don't matter need to realize that she is the candidate for President of the United States because debates do matter. Exactly.

Debates matter. The rules for the debate matter.

Everything matters. You were with her in her last debate prep when she prepared to debate Mike Pence. I think I'm speaking her line. There's always one line in a debate that lives forever. I think that line when Pence was trying to talk over her, where she established herself as a force and as someone who has strength and power, was really important. Tell me what you think is going on in debate prep. How much are they going to lean into bugging Trump versus laying out policy?

Well, look, and you talk about that line from the last debate. That was something that we workshopped, right? We practiced that. That is something that like, look, he's going to interrupt you when you're speaking. What is the thing that you're going to say to rebuff him? Because let's just be very clear, there are ways in which that if there were two men standing on the stage in this upcoming debate, that it's just different. It's different. And so a way in which a man might respond to being interrupted, a woman, even the most powerful woman in the United States of America, the vice president of the United States of America, cannot, to just be frank, cannot respond in the exact same way because it will be taken differently. And there will be people who are tuned in who maybe have never seen her in earnest before. They've only seen clips on the news or not. So they're going to make decisions about how they feel about what she's saying, but also who she is and what president she will be based off of everything. So debates are just as much about the policy and what one is saying and what one believes as it is about performance.

It is about policy and performance. And to your point, last debate, there was some shifty stuff on performance, very shifty. And then obviously, even some of the policy lines weren't delivered as crisply as they needed to be from President Biden in that last debate. So it's going to be all very Very, very important. You have to ensure... I'm sure the vice president is doing mocks at this point. And I mean, Donald Trump, the last debate that he did with a woman, it was Secretary Clinton, and he encroached upon her personal space many times. Literally was stalking her on the stage. I have to imagine that they have practiced. What are you going to do if Donald Trump comes into your space? You're not going to bop him in the nose, okay, even though you might want to. What are you going to do when he comes into your space? There are many ways in which you could respond, but you are running to be the commander in chief, the President of the United States of America. So you need to respond like a commander-in-chief would. So there are many different ways to go about that, but I absolutely think that they practice that.

I will hope that Donald Trump doesn't think that he should roll up on the vice president, but you know, stranger things have happened, Claire. You just have to remember that you are speaking to the people at home. If there is an audience, I don't believe that there is an audience in this debate.

There isn't. There isn't.

No audience. You're speaking to the people at home. So finding those times to turn directly to the camera and speak directly into the camera as the camera will be a close up on you and people will really feel like they're having a conversation with you. And then also finding those ways to needle Donald Trump. I think what gets under his skin the most is when he is dismissed. And so the laughing at him, I think, will be good. Doing it with a smile. But then when it comes to the policy distinctions between the two, Donald Trump is going to say a whole catechism of things that are not true and that aren't his policy. Last debate, he tried to take credit for the recovery from COVID. So he might try to do that this debate as well. And she will have opportunity to say, I know the former President said X, Y, and Z. Let me just tell you what that means. And then doing the split screen, if you will, that way. And lastly, the things that he's doing on Truce Social, he is going to attempt to do those on that debate stage.

He is not above a stunt. And I think the best way to deal with the shenanigans, especially when it comes to the attacks on race and gender, is to not take his bait and not play his game. And vice president Harris has been doing that thus far. Her campaign has been doing that. But it's easier when, frankly, you're not on the stage together. They'll be on the stage together. And what do you do if he says, Well, she's not really Black on the stage? You're going to laugh at him. And then what's your comeback pivot? You don't want to get into a back and forth with him on Black or on gender because I've been Black my whole life, and I don't believe in arguing about that. Those are things that they will have to absolutely work through.

Yeah. I think one of the things that grates on people's nerves is talking about whether a woman is likable as a candidate. We all remember the famous moment between Obama and Clinton about her likability. Yeah, it sucks, but it does matter. Whenever I would debate, you have a moment before it starts, you have paper there and a pencil, you have no notes. She'll have no notes. There'll be no way she has anything written. There'll be a blank pad of paper and a pen. What I always did is I wrote a couple of things on the page, not policy I wanted to remember, not my closing statement I wanted to remember, but I always put smile. I always wrote down likable. She has such confidence about the policy issues. She doesn't need to worry about whether or not she can deliver those. I think for her, the three things... Because it is performance, it is policy, but it's also personality. There are people that make up their mind based on how comfortable they are with someone. I think that's where she's got a real edge over this guy. If she can just dismiss him and act like he's unimportant, that his act is tired and old and we're bored with it, all of this lying and all of this nonsense, let's just talk about how we make things better for the American people.

I think if she does that, with strength, not letting him push her around. She has to be really strong because strength really matters here. Strength, but friendly. Then once again, remembering that the country doesn't know her that well, and the country needs to be reassured that she can govern, that she has got her shit together to actually govern this country. It's a tall order for anybody. It's especially a tall order for her in these circumstances, how she's come to the nomination and how she's run her campaign so far. It's a very big moment. Now, I know her pretty well. You know her pretty well. You've seen her under pressure. I've seen her under pressure. I've talked to her when she's happy. I've talked to her when she's pissed off. I've talked to her when she's nervous. I've talked to her in a lot of different circumstances. I think she's got this, don't you?

Yeah, I think she's got it. Look, she is someone that has no problem rising to the occasion. Yes, she wants to be prepared, and any good candidate should want to be prepared. I want a leader that wants to make sure they have dotted all their I's and crossed all their T's. But also, I think she's laser-focused on the stakes is how I would describe how she is just right about now. Frankly, Claire, it's less than 90 days, almost less than 60.

It's two months.

It's two months.

It's two freaking months.

You know how long it takes to make a habit? It takes 90 days to make a habit or to break a habit. It's less than that. So you could do anything for 90 days, you could definitely get the job done in 62 or '60. So I just think that this is a moment that was tailor-made for Vice President Kamala Harris, but it's going to be a fight to the end, okay? It might be fighting through the night in November fifth, Claire, but I think it's definitely doable. And the road to the White House, it goes directly to this debate stage on Tuesday.

And I think one thing that I know they're doing in debate prep that does matter is they are talking about a moment that would captured. We know how many people are going to watch the debate, probably more than watched the last debate, I'm predicting, that it is a bigger number than the Biden-Trump debate. But really what matters is what is captured and repeated on social media, virally, and on local news. We don't talk enough about the local news. There's still a whole swath of middle-of-the-road voters that watch their evening news every night, if nothing else for the weather hype. But it is really important important that they prepare for a potential viral moment, and that probably is going to be a moment where she puts him in his place. I know that they have to prepare to try to figure out the right way in time to put him in his place. To put him where he belongs, somebody who is a buffoon and lying and not telling the truth and specializing in personal attacks when that's not what the majority of the country wants. I can't wait. Are you going to be in Philly?

I'm not. I'm going to be New York, so down the road.

Well, I'm going to go to Philly, and they're going to kill me. They're going to work me early in the morning and late at night. These old bones have to put up with it, but it's worth it because this is a big deal. I'm so happy for the vice president, and I have a feeling that we're going to want to congratulate her when this debate is over. I hope I'm right about that.

Yeah, I think so. I think she's going to do what needs to be done because she's laser-focused. So I can't wait to see it. I'll be there watching.

Tcb. Thanks for joining us for today's installment of How to Win 2024. A big thanks to my co-host today, MSNBC's Simone Sanders Townsend. I'm honored that you took the time to share this with me today. She'll be back with me a few more times for Election Day, so keep tuning in because we're not going to let Simone wander far. She's going to be back in a couple of weeks, and I'm looking forward to it. Thanks so much.

Looking forward to being here. See you soon.

Thanks for joining us on How to Win. We really appreciate it. Before we head out this week, we have a lot of exciting content coming up I want to tell you about. First up, I want to let you know about a series we've been working on for How to Win. It's called The Threat of Project 2025. Four of my colleagues, Ali Velshi, Joy Reid, Jen Saki, and Chris Hayes, have each been diving into key elements of Project 2025. Together, they're helping us understand how a second Trump term could undermine core aspects of everything we hold dear in America, including our democracy. You can find the first two on reproductive rights and education in this feed starting next week. I also want to note, MSNBC Live Democracy 2024 is now sold out. Thank you, everyone who signed up to join us this weekend. I can't wait to see you and meet some of you then. If you didn't manage to grab a ticket, we'll be posting selections of Saturday's Conversations as a podcast next week, so keep an eye out for that. Finally, as always, please subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple podcast to listen ad-free.

This show is produced Vicky Virgolina. Jamaris Perez is our Associate Producer. Katherine Anderson is our audio engineer. Our head of audio production is Bryson Barnes. Ayesha Turner is the executive producer for MSNBC Audio, and Rebecca Cutler is the Senior Vice President for Content Strategy at MSNBC. Search for How to Win 2024 wherever you get your podcast and follow the series. Go, chiefs.

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