Quick context, in case you're just clicking on this and you don't have any idea about my life, my wife, Laura, the Lentz family. We have been out of the public life and sphere for a couple of years now. Actually, it's moving on about four years. And we went through some things as a family that some people know about, other people don't. But we're going to use everything we've been through to hopefully bring some new life and some new hope to people. And what you're going to see on these first couple of episodes, especially this first one, you're going to see a couple that is healed and healing. And it hadn't been the case always for us. We haven't been at a place where we've been able to talk about our own life and our own pain, and we are now. So when you see us going through this story, we're looking to the future. Cannot wait to talk about other things, but it's irresponsible for us not to talk about what happened because it was so public, and I think it's fair to be able to open it up and allow people to take from it what they can.

So in this first episode, we're going to answer some questions that a lot of people have, like why has it taken us so long to talk? Why is Laura still married to me? Who's at fault? We handle some of the real hard questions, and our hope with this whole thing is that you can look at what's happening in our life, and maybe you can recognize a little bit of your story in ours, and together we can all grow. So the future of the podcast is going to be me bringing on people that I love, that have changed my life, that have helped me heal, that are helping me heal, and that's the future. But the right now, this is our story. For those of you that are brand new to this, we used to be a ministry. I made some mistakes that cost us a lot, and we talk about it all. Now, We're here. We're in this space, and I'm really excited about it. So thank you for checking it out. Episode one. Hope you enjoy it. Great news. If you have not already downloaded the B-side app, do it. It is ad-free, which is a gift from heaven.

Anytime you watch something that you love and there's ads in it, it's the worst. Not on the B-side. Ad-free. You will be the first to know about some really cool events that we have cooking. And when they come out, you'll be the first to know. And what we're passionate about here is creating a real community. And B-side is open to everybody. So you can check it out. You can watch some stuff, and that's cool. But there's a better, deeper level that I think that's available to anybody who wants it. And if you download it, you get a better chance of getting the stuff that you need, meeting people that are like-minded. And I love I think it's a part of this world that is really special. So if you are a person who loves community, add this. Be a part of the B-side family, and you'll love it. So hope to see you there. Download the B-side app. Love you. When you go through something like we've gone through, a crisis or something that's really hard, you either break down and die and let it define you for the rest of your life, or you get up and you fight and you try to break through and remind yourself that we're all writing our story and nobody else can control the true, real narrative of your life.

And we have had a journey of making sure we don't lay down, die, and let a hard chapter define us. So it's a real pleasure and a real honor to be sitting here. A little bit surreal for me. My hope for this is that we can at least show people that there is another your side to a tragic story, because as it stood before, we've done this. We haven't spoken, we haven't talked. We participated in a documentary, which we'll talk about. But I think for us, most of the people know one side of the story, which is, Yes, it is true. I got fired for my job. I broke my marriage vows. I broke the trust of a lot of people. I had an amazing position as a pastor and a leader, and I fell on my face. That is true. That's part of the story. And we're here today, still alive, still married, 21 years. Shout out to you. Our family is stronger than ever, and we have more joy and more peace than probably we've ever had. And that's part of the story. So I hope when people maybe do talk about something that we went through, they include it all because it's all true.

Both parts are true. We don't need to do this podcast. The world definitely doesn't need another podcast just to have one. But I feel We're personally responsible to share what's happened in our journey because we have led a lot of people in our lives. And up until this point, I think there's people who are interested to see what I'm going to do with this, what you're going to do with this, what happened to our marriage, what happened to our lives. And so we're going to use every bit of this to give people hope.

I think people see people fall and fail, and they like that. But I think there's also this other side of redemption and this other The side of like, no, but you can get up again and you can make it. I think for us, our story has been that. It was out there for a lot of people to see, which was really hard. But I think this side they also can see is the healing and what can happen when you work hard at a relationship.

Yeah. I think people don't sometimes understand that talking about this stuff, it is hard. It is triggering. We have put to rest A lot of things, but bringing this up, it's another credit to you for being brave enough to talk about this, because for me, a lot of it is humiliating. A lot of it is embarrassing. A lot of it is you just want to look at it and shake your head. But we're choosing to go... The least I can do is put our story out there and say, Hey, if this helps you avoid the pain and the tears, so thank you for even agreeing to do this. It's a big deal. I know it's been emotional for both of us, and I know it's going to be worth it. So that's what we're going to do on this podcast, especially early on. We're going to talk about our story because everybody else has, and I think it feels good. It feels natural to be able to speak to it, and then we're going to move on and do different things. But as it stands right now, we're going to try to answer as many questions that we've been told by people we love.

We asked her, what do you think would help people the most? What are the questions that people are asking? And some were like, Ah. We're going to do that. We're just going to go question for question. And see where we go, but with the hopes that people will be able to look into this thing and go, I can glean from that. I won't do that. And that's our story as we know it. So whatever you want to say, whatever you want to ask, shoot for the stars.

Yeah. So I get a lot of women and men on my DMs or reaching out to me who have gone through similar situations. And so that's why I wanted to do this, because it's hard to answer a lot of things in that setting, but to be able to share our story and help people in that setting that may be struggling or don't know what to do in whatever situation they find themselves, I'm hoping that this is going to help them with whatever they're going through.

There's no way it can't. No. Have you found, I think this is interesting. We've gotten to see what a marriage breakdown and a church breakdown looks like from a different side. I think I would never have known what I feel like I know now about it, how lonely it is, how hard it is. We've seen people reach out that have just been through so much stuff, and they've just been out there floating around. I didn't realize that was a real thing. Yeah, definitely.

A lot of them are worse. It can be worse than ours. Ours was just public.

We had amazing friends that stepped up and helped us, but that's not the case for a lot of people. We had some support systems with our family. That's not the case with a lot of people. You just don't know what to do. I look forward to that changing. We can be a part of that. People are in marriage situations where you feel lonely and you feel like you can't get through it. We are evidence, absolute evidence that you can, and that there's hope after a lot of pain.

You said before, we're going to tell our story and then we'll move on. I don't know that we'll ever move on. It's a part of our life. Probably through this podcast, it is going to come up in different ways. I wanted to ask you some questions. Yes, ma'am. I think people want to know, especially because I was telling you about this, but you three years ago, stuff happened. You apologized publicly, and then we disappeared. I think a lot of people are like, What's happened? They probably have a lot of things that they think about you and things that they've seen in the media, things that people have talked about that we haven't I answered. So I think maybe you're talking about, if I ask you the questions and then you answer. Perfect. It could be fun.

Yeah, perfect. Yes.

Okay. So, firstly, why do you think we waited so long, or why did you wait so long to talk?

We waited so long to talk because we had a bigger priority, which was to save our family. More accurately, for me to save my own life and then work to try to save our marriage and then work to try to save our family. And very difficult because my instinct is to go to war immediately. My instinct is to defend myself, give context, give clarity. And the way all that went down, we had to make a choice right up front, which way are we going to handle this chapter? And for me and you, I think the best advice that we got was you cannot, for For me, you cannot save face and save your life at the same time. I remember hearing that going, Well, that doesn't work for me because I want to salvage my reputation. I want to tell people what happened. I want to do all this stuff, and I need to get in a place of healing because I am in deep, deep trouble. And I remember we chose healing over reputation, protection. It was very difficult. It wasn't easy. But the healthier we got, the better it got. It didn't mean the voices ever went away or you could see things out of the corner of your eye or hear stories or see things being spun.

But once you make that choice to go, I don't really care. At the end of the day, there's nothing to salvage here. People are going to think what they're going to think. All I care about is trying to save what matters. All I care about is trying to save this family. And I was in trouble. I was in really, really, really deep, deep trouble. And I remember immediately thinking that this is going to be a different road. The night that all that stuff went down or the day after, at least, we were staying at a friend's house because we had sold our house. In New York. In New York. New Jersey. Yeah. And staying in a friend's house in Brooklyn, and they graciously let us use their apartment. And when all this stuff went down, We were obviously just shell-shocked, reeling, horrible. It makes me feel weird to even talk about it. But then I got a call from the person who lives there, and he said, basically, I want somebody to work for him. He said, You guys have to leave because the owner of this place does not want to be associated with you.

And I said, Okay, where does he want us to go? He's like, Doesn't care. He wants you out within a couple of hours. We are all I love our stuff's here. Our kids are here. There's some photographers and reporters around taking photos, and all this stuff is flying around. Our kids are like, What's going on? I remember we had to take everything we have in this apartment, put it on the street in Brooklyn, and then we got a U-Hall and a U-Hall van, and we're just throwing stuff in there. Our kids still don't really know what's going on. I'm in a weird comatose trans mode of just, Don't even know where I am. You're trying to survive. Me and Roman were in the U-Hall, and we just started driving. You were in the van with the girls. We started driving. I remember getting on the highway, pulling out of Williamsborough, Brooklyn. And I just remember thinking, What are we doing? Where are we going to go? And Roman's next to me. He's my little guy still. He's, Dad, what are we doing? Why don't we have anywhere to go? And I couldn't get a hold of anybody at that point.

So I realized a lot of people were going to handle this however way they're going to handle it. And we finally found our friend Kim Clark, who said, Come and stay with us in Connecticut. Our first couple of nights, we really felt like, man, the whole world has ended. We have been- It was COVID as well. It's COVID. It's so weird. We have no idea which way is up right now. We're We're in trouble. That was one of those nights I'll never forget. I'll never forget sitting in that car looking at my boy with all our belongings in two U-hallss going like, How did I get here? Is this real life? That's why we made the decisions that we made to just work on us, work on our family. For me, being a control guy, letting it go was not easy. But I got some advice that I still tell people to this day. I still apply it to my own life. By the way, we're not going to be the podcast of the people that have arrived and know everything. We're the people that are on a journey of healing. But he said, Carl, you got to let the rain fall.

Because I remember calling my friend going, This isn't fair. At some point, we got to step up, and at some point, we got to say something. At some point, we have to share our side. He said, It doesn't matter right now. You got to let all the rain fall. And if the rain falls and it hits the ground, and eventually, if it stays long enough, it will produce new life, new growth. That rain in this crisis, it's part of the process, and you have to let it fall.

Which is hard. That was hard for you because your natural... Yeah. Your personality is to fight. It's to protect. It's to justify. It's to do all of that. So this was really a hard thing for you to do. I was okay because I just wanted to hide. So you also said you were in trouble. You were in deep trouble. Can you explain that a little bit more? Because for some people, they're probably like, What does that mean?

When I say in trouble, I think I was at the end of a spiral, a cycle of decisions that I had been making, and I felt like I wanted to take my own life. I told you that. I didn't know what to do about it, but I knew it was serious. I think there was two parts of me. One part of me was just like, I just want to go. I just want to leave. I don't want to be here. I'm so embarrassed. I'm humiliated. My family is in this way because of me. I was in a in a really, really bad way. I felt like it was... I didn't know what the next hour was going to hold. For me, to be at that level of fear was really dangerous. I think by the grace of God, we had some people step in and help us and point to a plan. I remember right early on just saying, here, I'm going to put my life in the care of some men that have not chosen to leave. They're going to stay, and I'm going to try to figure out what to do. We're going to bit by bit.

It was the choice we made to be quiet all this time, so worth it because of where I feel like we sit today. You cannot heal and fight at the same time. I've seen now from this view, I've seen other people do it their way, where people are always fighting. I think to myself, how many Instagram posts can you put up? How many subtweets can you subtweet? How many people can you attack with your side of the story? I was like, I get it. I relate to But how can you heal? How do you heal if you're always moving, if you're always fighting, if you're always swinging? How in the world can you ever figure out what's wrong with you? I'm so glad. I'm grateful. I didn't get it at the time. I hated it at the time. It was so hard. But now I look back and if I would have spent any time defending myself or trying to figure out some way to salvage our image, there's no way I would have been able to get help because I would have focused on that.

We've been really quiet for the most part. We did do the Hulu documentary.

That's all.

That's all we did. Do you regret doing that? Would you have changed it in terms of feeling like we were maybe a bit too soon or shouldn't have said it? I don't know. What do you think?

We had so many opportunities to do interviews. I remember thinking after we got through that first season, I remember thinking, I don't know when we're ever going to be able to speak on this. The right time will come, and we were approached about the documentary. I I don't know if I would do it again. I think my motive was to feel understood. If I'm honest, that's why we did it. And that's never a good motive. My overriding thing, I said other things. I was like, We can do it for this. We want to do it for that. But if I really, really search my own soul, we did that so people would understand. What I realized afterwards is that it's not going to work. It doesn't matter. There are people who are not... They don't want to understand. And there's people who do want to understand. We can't change their minds. I can't change anybody's minds. I looked back, I wouldn't change. I wouldn't regret it because I didn't know then. I thought this is going to be an objective documentary, which isn't ever going to happen. I think that the producers tried to be as honest as they could with it, but we didn't control it.

We didn't know. We didn't know what they were putting it. We didn't know who they were talking to or what any of it was about. We just knew that our story was going to be like an overarching situation.

It was going to be left alone because we had said we don't want our story to be attached to a narrative about how somebody else is bad or whatever. And you know what? People made it what they wanted to make it. But I learned in that moment of watching people talk about us, some stuff was true. A lot of it's not true, which we can talk about. I know for myself, the thing that I realized is if you don't want for people to lie about you, don't put yourself in a position to be lied about. And I started pointing to myself. I'm going, You know what? Yeah, the lies are hard. Because what I did do was bad enough to just talk about that. But it's the stuff that was thrown on in the middle of that. And I went from being mad and bitter to going, It's my fault. It's my I fought. I put us in the middle of this road for people to lie about us. So rather than be even mad at the liars, it was a great moment for me to go, You know what? I'm just never in my life going to give other people the control that I gave them.

Because when When you are in a situation that's dishonest, people don't know what to believe. So I remember that day changed me when we talked about us. I'm just never going to be here again. People are going to talk, and they did. But moving forward, I will never put myself in the position that I put myself in. I'll never put you and our kids in a position where they can be vulnerable. So that's why we waited. That's why we waited so long. Glad we did.

And you just were saying it's your fault that you put us in that position. Who is at fault? Who is at fault in this whole situation? Because there was things thrown around in that space as well.

Yeah. I'm at fault. My decisions, my choices. That's my responsibility, and I take responsibility for it. I have wanted people to know when I get a chance to talk to them that I'm deeply sorry for what happened, and It's nobody else's responsibility. It's mine. We always have choice. We always have our own agency to do what we feel like we have to do. And I mismanaged my personal life. I hid things that I should not have hid. I lied about things I shouldn't have lied about. I was confused about who I was at times. Didn't get any help for it. And the result was a whole lot of pain for a whole lot of people, which I will remain deeply for for the rest of my life. I don't live in the shame of it, but I'll never forget the impact that it had on people. And it's nobody else's fault. It's my fault. I feel like when you're in a situation where you have made mistakes, you have two options. You could point out the window and try to find other people that are more guilty, as guilty, and you feel that need to deflect blame, or you look in the mirror.

I feel like we've done the best job we can. I know I have worked really hard at staying in the mirror. What did I do? What's my responsibility? What's my role in this? What part in this story did I play? And I am so heavy throughout it that I don't have a lot of time anymore to worry about other people's role in the story. But what happened to our marriage and what happened to my platform, it was my fault and my responsibility, nobody else's. And that's just the truth. That's just the way that I see it. It's the way that I accept it. It's the way that I relate to it. And my job now is to make living amends. As I've explained to you, when you wrong people and you hurt people and you offend people and you break the trust of people, you If you're truly about owning what you did, you try to make amends. And I've done that where I can, privately with the people that I feel like it's been appropriate. But when you're a public figure person and you hurt people on a bigger scale, your whole life has to be a living amends.

That's what I plan on doing. I can't go up to every single person that was a part of our beautiful church and say, I'm sorry to you. I can't do it. It's not possible. But I can live a life of integrity and honesty that gives people reason It's your belief. It gives people reason to have hope. I cannot change people. I can't change their minds. Big, big revelation for me in this chapter. What I can do is live a life of integrity and honesty. Nobody cares about what my words are when it comes to that. I don't care. You don't care what my words are. But if you're truly repentant and you're sorry about something, your words need to be said, but it'll change the way you think. When you change the way you think, it changes the way you act. That's true repentance. I feel like we've got a couple of years now of fruit of what we've been trying to do, but that's my goal. If people want to believe, if people want to follow, if people want to listen, that's their right. I can't change them. But what I can do is continue to recover, be who I feel like I'm called to be, be your husband, be your dad, and leave my life on display like it's always been.

Say, if you watch the bad parts of it, well, the story is still continuing. This is the story. Take it or leave it. This is who we are. And that's my goal, is to live a life of living amends. I really want to be able to say this to you in public because your reputation was damaged in public. You You had nothing to do with my hidden sin, and hidden habits, and hidden addictions. You did not know what was going on with me. I know there's been some confusing reports where people can try to piece something together and say, Laura, was she complicit? Did she know? And that's just not true. It's not our story. You didn't know anything about what I was doing because I became really proficient at making my life work despite a lot of pain. And there were times where You asked me questions to my face, and I didn't give you honest answers. There were other times where I even tried to make your reality confused. And you're a beautiful human being, and your character has never, There's never been in question. There's never been a complaint about you. You are the most lovable person and the most loved person that I've ever known.

You were the backbone of our church, the leader to so many people, and you did not deserve what I gave you, which is a scandal that's humiliating. You deserve better. And you've had to stand strong and watch people even start to try to bring you into stories that are so malicious and so evil. Again, that's on me. It's not even on the liars. But I'm so sorry that it happened. I've apologized to you to the point you've told me to stop apologizing. But it's freeing. It feels really good for me to be able to say you had nothing to do with what I was doing. You didn't find out and then cover it up and try to keep it going. You've never cared about that. You never cared How about a role like that? You would never stand for that. It just got to the point where I think God had had enough, and I'm grateful for that. I look back now at that situation. I don't even relate to it as this horrible tragedy. I relate to it now as a moment in our story that I got saved again, that I got a chance to be free again, that I got a chance to be honest again.

And not everybody gets a second chance. I've taken mine, and I'm living in it, and I'm going to keep living in it. And that's my story. That's my encouragement for anybody going through it. How do you get a second chance? Choose it and use it. And it didn't even mean for that to rhyme, but it did. I think one thing that I read when it comes to that's interesting to me is every headline typically would say, Disgraced Pastor or Pastor Falls from Grace, Falls from Grace, Falls from grace. Disgraced pastor. What's funny about that is God bless those people. They don't understand grace because you can't fall from grace. You fall into grace. So it didn't even make any sense to me. I'm not mad at the tabloids who write because they're, Oh, Disgraced Pastor, disgraced. You don't understand what grace is. It's the opposite of grace. Grace is mercy and favor and forgiveness that you do not deserve, but God gives it to you anyway. So if anything, I fell into grace. And if people could stop writing headlines like that, I would appreciate it because it's inaccurate. Disgraced pastor. I'm not a disgraced former pastor.

I am a human being that made huge mistakes. Mine were public. Everybody got to see them. And now I'm a human being that's trying to rectify my life and make wrongs right and to live completely differently. But disgraced? I am not. I'm more filled with grace than I've ever been. Did I fall from grace? Absolutely not. I fell into it, and I'm really grateful for that. And If people feel disgraced, I understand it. You could say what I did was disgraceful maybe at times, sure, but I'm not disgraced because we're forgiven and I have been able to feel God's grace more than ever. I understand the thought, but I just wanted to get it out there. That doesn't fit me. You can keep writing that headline if you want, but that's not me. I don't identify as the disgraced former pastor. No, sir. No, ma'am. Whoever's writing that. If you were to ask me what's the order of things that I struggle with the most, it's the pain that you and our kids have had to carry and that you and our kids have had to walk through. You don't think of that when you're making stupid decisions behind closed doors.

You just don't. You can't ever imagine or feel the weight of it. Everything that's happened, watching you shoulder the blame and walk in that consequence with me as your husband, I don't know where you get that strength from. I don't know where you get that courage from. I'm glad you have it. But our children, to be able to walk through that storm and to be able to stand strong and tall today, if you wanted to give me a recipe for kids that would walk away from God and write off everything to do with our faith, it would be the recipe that was given to our children. And to watch those little people be their own people, to watch them continue to pursue a relationship with God, to not be bitter. They got some stuff to say, and they're going to say it because they're human and they're amazing. But the fact that they have been who we We've seen them become, it's just a real blessing. I don't take it for granted. Every time I see them, I'm like the parent now that goes overboard on the easy stuff because I'm like, I put you in a tough spot.

What can I get you? Can I buy you a car? I'm that guy. I got to guard myself against being that guy. Just at It's a constant guilt check. I got to check my guilt every time I have to discipline my children. But that was the hardest part. And because it was the hardest part, it's the part that I'm believing for the most fruit and grace on the other side of it.

I think we're seeing that.

We're seeing that in our family.

Which, I mean, you don't see it when you're in it. You're like, Oh, we are so effed. My kids are a mess. And that was hard as a mom to watch because you're like, You, mother, you did this to our kids and to me. And so that was hard because I can't protect them from that. And I couldn't because it was so public. But they seeing where they are today and how strong they and how honest they are and how much grace they have for other people and empathy for other families and their friends and things that they've had to face, I'm super grateful that we could take this situation, and they've gotten the best out of it. It's been hard, but they've gotten the best.

I remember telling Charlie about what happened, and she said, Thanks for telling me, dad. I don't forgive you. And I don't know. Understandably, she's like, I don't know if I'll ever be able to forgive you. So I hope someday you can find it in your heart to forgive me. It's not owed.

She was 14 at the time.

It's not owed. It's not expected. But she looked at me and said, I don't know if I can ever forgive you. And the day she did was one of my favorite days. And to give more context on Charlie's surrounding situation, she had had a mental health breakdown that was so serious that we had to admit her into a hospital.

She went to a teen...

Mental health institution. And It was scary.

She was there for eight weeks.

We almost lost her. Eight weeks? We almost lost her. While all this is going on, that's in the background. It was really hard. We found out about everything that happened. We called the hospital and said, Hey, something's going to come out, and I want to tell my daughter because now I'd have contact with them except for twice a week. And I need to be able to tell my daughter now because if someone in that hospital finds out, I don't want them to hear. I don't want her to hear from them. I remember this call with a therapist on Zoom. Charlie's there, and I had to look across the screen and say, Charlie is some really, really bad news that's about to come out. And told her what I did and what had happened. And that's when she looked at me and she just was quiet. Remember she was quiet? She was quiet and just said, Thanks for telling me, dad. I don't forgive you, though. I don't forgive you. I don't know if I ever be able to forgive you.

I don't know if I will, yeah.

I said, I get that.

I get that. Then we're like, Can she stay a few more weeks?

Yeah. It's She's just staying in process. We looked back on it and it was really, really fortunate. She was able to process that in a hospital with a therapist. Ava, who has a lot of your spirit, forgave me right away, hugged me and said, There's There's going to be a lot that comes from this, but that I forgive you. Roman, I don't know if he's ever vocalized yet that he has forgiven me. This is a work in progress. I mean, we're tighter than we've ever been, but he's unable to talk about this. As we record this pod, he is Our child that has processed it, the most internal. It's starting to come out, and I'm looking forward to that being fruitful and healthy. But man, it's hard when I look back on it, but I'm so, so, so grateful for it and for what our kids have... People forget that they already, the first chapter of their lives, they were in public, part of a church revival in New York City. Wild, amazing. But they've already sacrificed. They've already been through so much, and then have that happen. Just a shout out to our amazing kids.

You've done something right as a mom. Maybe I've done some things right as a dad, too, over the years. You have, for sure. But thank God that Our kids have made it through. A lot of people have asked about our children. I'm thankful for that. I appreciate the people who have continued to pray and love our kids. They are amazing people. They're fierce. It's true. You can't underestimate how much suffering can produce growth. We don't like to suffer, and we don't like to go through pain. But watching them suffer. Remember a therapist told us together, and we did a session about our kids. She said, Don't teach your kids how to avoid it. Teach them how to suffer well. I'm like, That doesn't sound right. Teach my kids how to suffer well? She said, Yeah, because it's going to prepare them for life. You cannot avoid suffering. I know you hate the scenario you put on your kids, but teach them how to suffer through it. What does that look like? We can talk about that down the road. How do you suffer well? But they learn that, and they're better for it. I just love our kids.

I'm super proud of them. Me too. They're amazing.

Super strong.

People say, What's the darkest day? I'm like, Which one? Got a couple. I got a couple. I got a Museum of Dark Days, but stuff like that, if you don't give up in the middle of it. That was the stuff that made me want to quit. When I look back, I'm a fighter. I can get through a lot, but I just never, never, never planned on my kids going through that much pain that I caused. But they are amazing today. We are so close where it's annoying. Can't even shake them.

I mean, Yeah. They're so clingy now because we had so many years together of just the five of us.

It just does. It just does.

We would never have had that. If we were still doing what we were doing in New York, we wouldn't have had this time, and I wouldn't change that for anything.

No, I wouldn't either. I don't like... This road has been hard.

It's been the worst, but it's like for our family.

It's been hard, hard, hard. But if I look at it now and I look at our relationship and Where our kids are at, I'm like, I don't know. I guess God is faithful, and who they are becoming is just a real amazing credit to them. Proud of them, proud of you. Holding it together during that time I was just unavailable, completely unable to do anything. On top of being the reason for all this, I could barely keep my... There were days where I didn't even know where I was, didn't know what I was doing. I I was in a constant state of brain fog, and I later found out what all that was. But it was bad. But you did the role of both of us. And that's why I think you're the bravest person I know. With fault, there's things that have to be said when there's an opportunity to say it. It's my fault that a lot of people that we love, our church especially, were put in a position where they had to defend, where they had to disassociate. I get that. Our church was always controversial. I've always been a bit of a lightning rod with some of the stances we've taken.

I think our church became accustomed to like, No, no, no. Yeah, our church might look like this, but it's this and defend. Then people stood on it, and then this comes out, and I just cannot imagine what that would have felt like. I'm so sorry about that. I'm sad about it, but it's my fault. I accept responsibility to the people that stood tall and defended us and we're a part of all that we built. I cannot wait for a brighter day. It just broke my heart to know that people who have been standing up for me my whole life. I gave ammunition to every Everybody who wanted to say something about big church, about pastors like me, I gift-wrapped it. I recognize that even the pastors that I love who used to be my peers, I recognize I made their job harder. Anytime one pastor falls, it has a ripple effect, especially when it comes to other ministers. I apologize to the men that I know when I can and to those that I might not meet. That's the truth. It's my heart. I'm so sorry that I've dedicated my life to be a light in the church.

There was a chapter there where I made it harder for people to do their job. I'm aware of that and grateful that there's so many awesome pastors out there. The real story that's never written is that there are so many faithful pastors. There are so many men and women that serve faithfully without scandal. It's just situations like ours get a lot of press and a lot of air time.

We've talked about a few things in our story, but what actually is the story? Like, what actually happened? What happened for those- Because some people know, a lot of people, most people don't.

Most people don't. And for those that do, they probably don't know. They don't know. What really because it was hard to watch people accept one side of a story. But what happened, for those who don't know, like I alluded to earlier, I had some private addictions and problems and habits that we'll get into in-depth on this podcast, that caused me to make huge mistakes, huge mistakes, personal mistakes. I was unfaithful to you, and I covered it up. As we know, covering does nothing but make the thing worse. That began to build and cycles in my life began to continue. It was found out that I was unfaithful in my marriage. I was fired publicly, and it was one of the catalyst things that started an entire bigger picture of bigger conversation about Hillsong Church, and I was a part of that. So that's what happened. I had a really, really phenomenal role, loved it, and I made mistakes in private that cost me and everybody in public. And so that's what happened. I don't know what people have heard or what people might have assumed or thought, but that's as unspectacular as it was. I made bad decisions, and I lied.

I covered it up. And grateful that I can live a different life now. But that's the truth. That's what happened.

How do you feel like do you think people can live with lies or covering up things? Because I know there's a lot of other people that have done the same thing and cover it up. That's going to come out.

Definitely will come out. I think the grace and compassion that we have towards the people that we know that are dealing with the same thing. I'm sad because nobody looked at my situation and was like, That looks incredible.

Because of how it was handled. Yes.

People looked at our situation like, Oh, my gosh. If it happened to that guy like that? What's going to happen to me? So it's not like our situation brought a huge wave of honesty in the church. I don't believe that happened. I know it didn't happen from my vantage point. I know a lot of guys were like, I'm going to go deeper in hiding, and I'm going to make sure that my wife is cool with this, and we're just going to gut this out in private because I do not want to lose my job. I don't want to lose my reputation. I don't want to lose this. So I'm definitely going to be able to point at this guy and have judgments about it. But the stuff that I'm going So that's a real part of this. And I think that happened, and it is happening. I hope we can bring a little bit of light to that and help people because it's going to come out. If you build anything on a lie, it's going to fall eventually. And my story is that. We did a lot of great things. There was a lot of good things happening, but there was a lie in the foundation, in the fabric of who I was as a person, not even an incident.

There was a lie about who I was. And it's painful painful. The consequences are painful.

One thing I don't understand, how can you stand up? How can you stand there and preach on a stage every week, knowing that you're holding so many secrets, so many sins, lies, all of that? How do you do that?

Very difficult question, and I understand it. The way I can articulate living a life where you have that secrecy It is torture for the person living me, and it's torture for the people that are not in the know. I don't care who you are, what you've done. Nobody's created to live with lies. If anything, we tell a lie, and we sit on it, and we learn to live with it. It's like adapting to dysfunction. That's what it's like to live with a lie. There's no burying a lie. We think that's what happening. But I look at when I thought I was burying a lie, and I was really digging my own grave. That's a hard reality to face. But now I know the power of honesty in a totally different way. That's been a really powerful part of our healing and Our journey is being so honest where it's scary, but I don't know any other way. You told me something, if I have permission to share it telepathically, can I have permission? Sure. But we were going through our checks like we do, and our marriage checks includes me asking you, How can I make you feel safer?

How can I make you feel comforted? It's just a regular part of our vernacular. The other day, you told me, you said, I don't know. Let me think about it. You said, I don't remember what it was like to not trust you. I tried to play it cool. I think I went outside and cried and told a bunch of my friends that are with me, Hey, the Lord said this. But man, the dichotomy. To be at a place where I broke every amount of trust you had in me. For a couple of years later, for you to look at me and go, I got to dig for a reason. I don't remember what it's like to not trust you. It is an encouragement for people everywhere, because if you're going through something, it can just feel like there's no end in sight. Ours was like that. There were some very hard seasons of you just not believe in me, and you didn't have I do. It's still not a thing where I have earned the right to live a certain way. The way our marriage, number two, has worked is every day I got to show up for you.

That's what I was going to say. The For me to say, I can't remember not trusting you. That's a lot of work on your end. It's a lot of... You show up every day doing the work, and I don't take that lightly either. That's a big deal. I know a lot of men don't choose to do that.

Well, that leads me to this. Why did you stay married to me? I think that I've watched you have to weather that storm. We've obviously hopped on and off social media in the amount of people that have ridiculed you for staying with me, cursed you out for staying with me. Anonymous text messages, once a cheater, always a cheater. You're brainwashed. You're this. Why would you stay with that man to watch you eat that stomach, stand on it, and give me an opportunity. Why did you do that? Because you had biblical grounds to leave me. Absolutely. In every way, but you didn't. Why?

I mean, my journey isn't for everyone. I know that. I did have every reason to leave. Absolutely.

You want to emphasize that again Because you've already said it. I'm kidding. No laughing. No fun. I stayed with you because I saw you doing the work.

But firstly, backing all the way back, I remember the first time we sat on the phone, I think it was the next day or that first week of everything, we're on the phone with a therapist, and she was asking you questions about your childhood and some of the things that you had gone through in the trauma and the abuse. I saw you break down like I'd never seen you break down or anyone for that matter. But your physical reaction to what you You were trying to explain what had happened to you. I saw that, and it wasn't an excuse for me. It wasn't like a, Oh, poor thing. It just gave me context as to what torment you were going through in your own mind. That was one of the reasons I chose to stay was seeing that and what that did to you for the sake of my kids and for the sake of just, I don't know what it was, but I knew that I needed to stay to heal, firstly, because I'd seen a lot of women go through this. I was the person who would always say, I would never stay.

I know so many people say that even in this situation, look at us and go, She's crazy. I would never stay. I was one of those people. I would have been like, Get out of here. My husband ever did that. I'm out. But when you're in it, it's definitely a different thing. It's not so binary. We had older kids, but for me, I didn't want to be one of those women that had all this pent up, brokenness and hurt and things that I'd never... Bitterness. I just chose very early on in this situation to be like, I don't want to live with a broken bitter heart. I did the myself.

Well, can I interject? Yeah. When you said we chose to heal together, our verbiage is different. So by together- Yes. At the same time- At the same time. But we were so not together because we were told, This isn't going to work as a couple. In fact, the place that I went to get help said, If you're here to save your marriage, go somewhere else. We're here to save your life. And if you save your life, maybe your marriage will make it. But any man who comes to a place to get help just for his marriage, it doesn't work.

Well, I think even in our situation, and you've said it before, I didn't do anything in this. You brought this. I still had to do my work. I still had to do my own work and my own healing and look at myself I think a lot of people, especially in the Christian space, they'll do couples counseling. They'll do all the couples things together, and the wife will definitely point the finger, and it's all him, which can work in some settings. But for I was like, we needed to do our own. You needed to do your journey of healing and work. I need to do my journey of healing and work. And so that's how we got to where we are today, even. I think we've maybe done threeouples sessions in three couples sessions in three years.

For us, it's been more effective to do something different.

Every journey is different, but that's how we've done it.

I think there are things I wanted to jump in and say over these past three years because people just assume, but You gave me really clear ultimatums about what would happen if this were to continue. There were checkpoints. There were people that were involved heavily, so you didn't have to carry all of it. It wasn't your job to make sure I'm doing the right thing. I think a lot of people fall into that trap. It was your job to say what you said, and it was hard. Maybe people don't know, the first time you said you forgave me was last year. I think maybe someone might I have imagined you just saying, you forgive me. It wasn't like that. I think what I felt like to me, you were giving me an opportunity to see what I was going to do with this information that I found.

I mean, you had broken every piece of trust. The betrayal part of infidelity is… It's so beyond what you can even… I can't even explain the feeling or explain what that betrayal does to a woman or to a whatever the situation is. But for me, that betrayal is so big. I had to heal and I had to do all the things, and I had to watch you do your work and get the help you needed. But I also wanted to keep a little bit of a wall up because I didn't want to get hurt again, and I didn't want to be put in that same position to be hurt again. I had to I protect myself. I didn't wait a long time. I never felt like I couldn't say it. I literally couldn't say, I forgive you. It took me three and a half years to say that. And so for me, that was a really long journey, but I really needed to have that space. I needed to be able to see and trust you. And you did the work of the trust, of building trust again. And when I went through some of that work, they explained it to me.

They took a glass filled with, I think it was Skittles or M&Ms or something. They took a drinking glass, and then he smashed it on my… One of my therapists smashed it on the ground and we just watched every bit of glass and all these M&Ms just fall all over the place. He was like, That's what your husband did to you. Now you need to try and pick all that up. It was It was so overwhelming, but it was like it could be done. He explained all of that to me, but it was just a beautiful visual for me to go, This is what you had done to our marriage was took every piece that we had built for 19 years at the time, 18 years at the time, and it was just completely shattered. And so you had to do the work of putting all of that back together and not taking the pieces that were there. It was taking a new glass.

That's what we did. We took a new jar.

We took a new jar and we took new Skittles.

Marriage number two.

Marriage number two was picking up and you dropping in the Skittle every chance you could.

I'm grateful. So we mentioned us doing our healing and us doing separate counseling. If somebody's like, What did Laura have to do? I think it's informative to know that when you have been married to somebody that has been cheating, the mental toll that it takes on you is extraordinary. It's severe. We didn't know some of the depths and the lengths of that until we started doing our own work. So even though I was at fault completely in our marriage breakdown, you had to go get work and get help because of who, in some ways, you became because of me. Because you are so strong where I feel like God spared your sanity, but it was this close. And you had to do work. So can you speak to that? Because what does that look like for a wife?

Well, I think because you mentioned before that I would ask you things over the years, and you would gaslight me, really, is what it's called. But it's basically taking what I think is reality and-Spinning it. Spinning it back on me, which happens all the time. It's not just… It's a very common thing. And then within the infidelity, the betrayal, I didn't know what it was, but It's actually called Betrayal Trauma that you deal with as a wife that goes through who is the victim of infidelity. And I didn't know that was even a thing. So I found a therapist that specialized realizes in Betrayal Trauma. I didn't realize the amount of work that I needed to do because I was a mess. My mind… They said, When you're gaslit the way you are in situations like that. It's more than just trauma. It's like mental torment, physical torment on your brain. I had to unwind a lot of my own things that had gone on in my own head. That's why I had to do my own work, because the trauma of betrayal is so full on for a person that you need to get therapy.

We can push it off. I could have kept going, probably.

We know people have tried that.

People try it and they keep trucking on. It does not go well. They keep trucking on. They still parenting and still doing the marriage thing and all of that. But it It's so not healthy, and it's going to break down somewhere along the way. And you're also going to stay resentful and bitter and traumatized. And the trauma stays in your body. We've learned a lot about the brain and what happens to your body. Passes through to your children for sure. Yes. And that passes on to your kids. It passes on for generations until you can break it. And so we chose to break it. And so I did my work, and I did a lot I still do therapy.

You know what's hard? And I love it. You know what's hard about that is to go back to the Skittles thing. It's a terrible feeling to be the bad part of an illustration. I bet. And that's part of facing what you've done wrong. And you use the word torment. I remember someone looking at me eye to eye, a counselor, a therapist, and said, You've been tormenting your wife. That was tough. I felt like a physically wanted to fight. I was so hurt. So the last thing I wanted to hear was that. But once I reflected on us, that's exactly what I was doing.

And I think it's good for people who are listening, for men who may be doing this who think they can cover it up because it happens all the time. They make mistakes It takes. They cover it up. And a wife isn't stupid, but we want to trust as well. So it's not like a woman goes in and just stays there because we want to believe what you're saying. And so for the men that are Well, for the women, whatever side it is, but whoever is in a situation like that, and you are tormenting your spouse, please say something. Just get honest. Be honest. Stop lying to yourself and be honest about it because the way you're living now, it's not going to go away. You don't even know how bad it is. Yeah, you don't know. You think you're protecting them from whatever you've done? You are hurting them as you sit there in your lives. You're hurting them. I just pray that people come forward and get the help they need to break that. Because if you do have kids as well, you're passing it on. It's a known thing that the trauma carries on.

The quicker you step up and face this stuff, the better. In that same vein, I remember Alex, my therapist, who I can't wait for people to meet her. She had said, Why did you wait so long, to be honest? I was like, Why? I didn't want to hurt My wife, and I didn't want to let people down. And she's like, Oh, so you're the hero. She's like, You were tormenting her. You already let people down. You're hurting people. In my crazy broken mind, I'm going, Oh, I'm doing this for valid reasons. I don't want the church to crumble, and I don't want people to be disillusioned, and I don't want Laura to be heartbroken. So I'm going to push through this and somehow make it right. And one of the first steps of making things right is to admit exactly That's basically what you've done. And I wasn't being selfless. It wasn't for the greater good. I stayed in lies because it was more convenient for me, and it was the selfish option that made sense to me. That's the truth.

Which is what I mean, it's not just in infidelity, it's in anything that has a hold on you, like alcohol, like drugs, like whatever your vice is, like shopping, like whatever, social media, whatever your addiction or whatever is. That's what it does to people, damages them. Do you still believe... Is what you preach, is it true? Is it real? Because I'm sure people have those questions as well. Yeah. Is everything you've said a lie?

Very fair question. I've actually been in the position that people are in on that one. I've had men that I respect come out with secrets and lies. So I I do know the feeling to a degree of what it's like to have a hero or somebody you look up to or trust. I could just use the word trust, not heroic. Somebody you put trust in and you found out that that's not true and their trust is broken. I am now in a position. Part of the consequence of my action is that people have the right to question everything. Although, logically, I could make a case that doesn't make sense because when you're lying about something, it doesn't mean that everything in your life is a lie. But I understand why people would think that. I can say about my preaching. I preached the truth. I preached about who Jesus is. I preached about the grace of God. I preached about stuff that's real. And so the preaching, what people heard, if someone was a part of our church, was any of it real? Yes, it was all real. I showed up the best I knew how to show up and gave it the best I could.

Dedicated my whole life to this, as did our family. I just would hope that God would give people the grace to look at it through a human lens. It doesn't mean you accept anything. It doesn't mean that you make an excuse for me. It just means that you understand that, yeah, I was living on some lies. And what I preached, I believe, with my entire whole heart. I actually look back now at what I preach, and I say, At least preach the truth, because nobody can take that away. Nobody can bring me videos or something of some heredical thought. That's not our story. Our story is I preach the truth, and maybe I did it so passionately because I was running from my own demons, running from my own lies. But it's a great question, and I get it for those that question everything I did or we were ever a part of. Sorry, I put you in that position. You were just asking on behalf of other people, Is what I said true? Is the preaching real? Did you question the ministry side of things when you found out that I had lies and I had been lying to you?

Did you think, Oh, is this preaching that? How did you handle that?

I really didn't. I didn't I don't think that ever even crossed my mind because I saw what you went through every week to preach in terms of just the way you would prepare, the way you honored what you had to do and what you had to do to bring the word, what you had to do to prepare for a Sunday, and also the pressures that you were under outside of just even the stage. People think, I think, preaching is just you just get up there and you do your thing. You would spend days and hours and weeks on a word or on a message and on whatever you were doing. You took that very seriously. You took it very… You knew that it was… That was a heavy weight on you. I never questioned that. I never thought that that was, Oh, he's a lot like, What? Because I know you're a human. You're not a preacher. You know what I mean? I didn't marry you because you were a preacher. I married you because I loved you and you're a human being. That just never would... Those two would never cross. It's good to know.

Maybe when we pick this conversation up, we'll talk about the rehab I went to and the counseling center that you went to. We can also talk about maybe our relationship to Brian Houston and to Hillsong Church, which a lot of people want to know about. We'll just keep this conversation moving. Thank you for being so honest. This isn't easy, but it's needed. So I love you. I appreciate you. I love you. Great news. If you have not already downloaded the B-side app, do it. It is ad-free, which is a gift from heaven. Anytime you watch something that you love and there's ads in it, it's the worst. Not on the B-side. Ad Free. You will be the first to know about some really cool events that we have cooking. And when they come out, you'll be the first to know. And what we're passionate What I'm listening about here is creating a real community. And B-side is open to everybody. So you can check it out. You can watch some stuff, and that's cool. But there's a better, deeper level that I think that's available to anybody who wants it. And if you download it, you get a better chance of getting the stuff that you need, meeting people that are like-minded.

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