Hi, it's Bob Safian. You've been hearing me as the host of rapid response in this feed for a few years now with short, newsy interviews alongside the deeper dives of masters of scale. Well, I'm excited to share that rapid response is expanding into its own feed. We'll be putting out shows twice a week, focusing on the urgent issues that business leaders are dealing with in real time. So search for rapid response in your podcast player and subscribe to make sure you get all our episodes. I'll see you on the other side.

I was a science major. I thought it would be, you know, really cool to teach kids how to, like, learn about solar energy by making, like, a hot dog cooker out of, like, tin foil and cardboard. I go around to the school's classrooms and I'm knocking one by one on the doors of, I think it was like, fifth or 6th grade classroom. And I went into one classroom. I remember the teacher's name, Mister Z. And he lets me do my little three minute commercial at the front of the classroom. And one little boy puts up his hand and is asking questions about it. He's sort of leaning forward in his seat. He's got a big smile on his face. And Mister Z interrupts him and he says, oh, not you. This is not for you. This is for the smart kids. And I nearly took a baseball bat to that man. I was like, that kid will never forget what you said. And God knows what you've been saying the rest of the school year. You know, I can't get that classroom teacher fired. I couldn't make decisions at a level of policy that would directly change that kid's life.

But I knew I would never forget that story, and I never have. And it taught me a lesson, which is that, yeah, for sure, we have genetic endowments. You know, probably lucky to have gotten certain genetic cards from my dad and certain from my mom. I don't want to deny that. But holy smokes, the environment you're in, the people who you're with, the opportunities that you have, I think we vastly overestimate talent that's natural and vastly underestimate the power of our environments.

That's Angela Duckworth, author of the bestseller Grit and creator of one of the most watched TED talks of all time. She's dedicated her life to understanding learning, motivation and achievement. She's a professor of psychology at the University of Pennsylvania and Wharton and winner of the MacArthur Genius grant. She also hosts the Freakonomics podcast no stupid questions. And she has a new book brewing. More on that later in this episode. Angela's writing and research have profoundly impacted the way we think about perseverance, success, how we find our purpose, and how we reach our potential. She's a thought leader whose work has helped everyone from first time founders to first grade teachers. She's helped business leaders understand not only how to cultivate grit in themselves, but the grit they need across their organizations as they scale.

You got to have incredible talent at every position.

There are fires burning when you're going home.

Can you believe it?

Such an idiot. And you go back to, this is totally gonna be amazing. There are so many easy ways.

Let's know what to do. I have no idea what to do.

Sorry, we made a mistake, but you.

Have to time it right.

Oops.

We're looking at a three bedroom apartment stuff.

It just seems absolutely nutball ten years later. Well, that's just how you do it. We haven't made just how you do it.

This is masters of scale. We'll start the show in a moment, after a word from our premier brand partner, Capital one business.

I woke up in the middle of the night because I had this nightmare that we were front page news that we've done the stupidest mistake of our life by making this pivot.

That's Aparna Saran, chief marketing officer for Capital one business. And she's recalling a moment from her previous position at Capital one when she was heading up a team designing a new business card.

We had just made the decision to go all in and sunset the prior version of the product, which was honestly the cash cow for our business when we made that decision within a senior leadership meeting. As someone who had been on the journey to build this out for five plus years, it was really exciting. But by the time the weekend hit, I started to feel the responsibility and the pressure. We are taking this big bet on something that I've built.

Perhaps you've been there, you've made a pivotal decision. And then panic sets in. How would Aparna calm her butterflies and steer her team through this pivot? We'll find out later in the show. It's all part of the Refocus Playbook, a special series where Capital one business highlights stories of business owners and leaders using one of Reed's theories of entrepreneurship. Today's playbook insight have multiple plan B's.

I'm Jeff Berman, your host Angela Duckworth's book, the power of passion and perseverance became an instant success. Already a respected scholar, the book introduced a broad global audience to her research and insights on grit as a predictor of achievement. Angela's own journey as an academic, an author, and a public intellectual has been anything but linear. Her work has helped so many business leaders persist, scale, and succeed. But it took several major pivots for Angela herself to find a career fit, one that suited her strengths and met her deep desire to understand and help children. We'll start with Angela. As an undergrad at Harvard, when she took her personal passion to heart to pursue childhood education, she had to step off the path that had been laid out for her.

Well, not to stereotype, but I am the daughter of chinese immigrants who grew up in suburban South Jersey. So it was a bit of cultural destiny to be pre med. But along the way, I found kids. So I started tutoring, actually, back in high school. But as I got into my extracurriculars in college, I just found more and more hours on the side of the ledger, being outside of the lecture hall, even outside of the lab and in schools and in homes in the Cambridge, Massachusetts community. And at one point, I did tally up, and there were more hours on the side of the ledger of being in the community versus in the lab or in the lecture hall. And I made this discovery that kids are amazing. And just sitting next to kids who are like, eleven years old, I was like, whoa, you're wicked smart. Relative to me, anyway. And then the epiphany of like, oh, I need to change my life was just that. I, at the same time, had this dawning recognition that the education that these kids were getting was not at all like the education that I got growing up in my home and in the schools I had attended.

So I made a hard pivot, and I decided to not take the MCAT. My dad refused to used to talk to me for six months, I think, after I made that choice, and I decided to dedicate my career to kids and to, initially, education, teaching nonprofit stuff, and now, as a psychologist who studies human development.

This pivot from pre med to education is more than a narrative twist that took Angela in a new direction. It's perhaps the first example of a framework that she's applied time and time again. You could sum it up with a simple take your own curiosity seriously. When she felt the tug to work with kids, Angela did not set it aside as an inconvenient truth. She didn't try to get rid of it. She didn't allow herself to be frozen by the consequences it could bring as she migrated away from the career in medicine she'd been pursuing. Instead, she investigated her own curiosity. She trusted her instincts and followed the path where her energy and interest were naturally flowing. But pursuing that passion wasn't without personal consequence. Did it make you rethink the decision to pivot to kids?

Okay. I was a little bit of a rebel. My dad and I had this incredibly close and affectionate relationship. I was the apple of my father's eye. But we had this dynamic where if he said no, I said yes, and if he said yes, I said no. And, you know, I have this I'll show you response that the moment someone says, oh, that's impossible. You curl your fist into a ball, there's a fire in your belly. You lean forward, and you say to yourself, and sometimes out loud, I'll show you. So when my dad told me not to go into education. Yeah. I said back to myself, because he wasn't picking up the phone, I'll show you.

In her senior year at Harvard, Angela started a not for profit summer school for underserved kids that helped set her up to pursue her life's work.

After graduating college, I rode around on my bike all senior year. Like, I think I got almost every business in Cambridge, Massachusetts, to donate photocopies or free ice cream. I didn't know what I was doing. I didn't have a business bone in my body. But I incorporated a 501 c three nonprofit. We had a board of directors. We opened our doors, and then, you know, we ran. And actually up being profiled as a Harvard Kennedy school case study and won the better government award and celebrated its 30th anniversary recently. So it ended up becoming, I guess you would call that, a successful startup that, you know, in some ways scaled. I think at last count, they served 10% of the children in the Boston Cambridge area.

What exactly were you seeing back then that inspired you? That may not be obvious to most of us.

So when I was sitting next to a kid trying to help them do their homework, it was clear to me that they were very often extremely bored. And when they were bored, they couldn't learn anything. Right. It was just like trying to pour water on a concrete surface, but when they were interested. So this would often happen. Not when we were doing the homework problem that they were begrudgingly trying to solve, but more like, let's take a break and talk about music or talk about anything that you care about. Skateboarding, whatever. They could memorize facts. They could make connections, like abstract general truths from disparate set of facts. I mean, all the things that we would call intelligence. And it was hard to ignore the gap between the obvious intellectual potential that these kids had, especially when they were interested and encouraged, and on the other side of this chasm, you know, their failing grades, their trajectory of not graduating from college. And it was, in a way, obvious.

Angela ran the not for profit tutoring program for two years. Then she got a Marshall scholarship to attend Oxford. Furthering her interest in learning, she earned a master's in neuroscience and planned to work in us schools. But she graduated in October, missing the start of the academic year. So she needed a gig to tide her over. The global consulting firm McKinsey came calling.

Basically, McKinsey hovers over Oxford like vultures waiting for a stag to fall over. So they just pounce on you. So I do my best, bumble through this interview, and I made an offer, and I accept it under one condition. I said, I don't really care about increasing the productivity and the revenue and the profits of these companies that pay you obscene fees, but I really care about public education. If I come and work for McKinsey, can I do pro bono work for most of my time? Sure, that's fine. Just come and I get there. To New York. And of course, looking at my resume, neurobiology, undergraduate from Harvard, masters of neuroscience from Oxford. I'm immediately put on all the pharma teams and all the medical devices teams. And I did do a little bit of pro bono work, but I only lasted eleven months. And I only lasted eleven months because that got me to September of the next school year, and I went immediately to work in the New York City public schools.

It doesnt sound like this was a tough choice for Angela. She knew she was biding her time, but that wasnt a given. Prestige is alluring. Big firms can be flattering. They also come with life changing paychecks. And for many, theyre a great fit. With her personal passion propelling her, it was easy for Angela to decide to swap consulting for teaching. But the change in environment was startling. Imagine stepping from a massive company boardroom straight into a 7th grade classroom.

I mean, you know, you walk in, there are bars on the window. I couldn't tell whether they're trying to keep people out or keep people in, but it did have the feeling of a jail cell. There was like one terrible bathroom that everybody in the school had to share, like, literally one. Like one stall. So all the teachers, all the kids, you can imagine what that was like by the end of the day.

But what truly surprised Angela was the increased challenge of the work itself. As a high paid corporate consultant, she was bolstered by vast resources and legions of high achieving colleagues. Compare that to sitting with a middle schooler one on one, tackling word problems.

Teaching 7th grade math, it was just so much harder. I mean, it was like, wow. I thought figuring out what to do with your $7 billion of excess cash revenue was a problem. This is hard, right? What do I do with this kid who, you know, is sitting in front of me and has umpteen problems and I have 45 minutes to, like, change their life per day? So it was humbling, and I don't think I was a great teacher. I tried really hard, but I think the things I failed to do as a teacher probably were the inspiration for, like, everything I've done since then.

Why were you not a great teacher?

Well, I mean, I did try, right? So I was like, I will triple the amount of time these kids get math. When you're talking to somebody who's in 7th grade and they only have second grade skills, I mean, some of these kids were, like, barely adding. So the most obvious thing to do is just increase the time on task. I don't think that was wrong, but I think one of the things I have since learned is that learning is not just about quantity of time on task, it's about quality of time on task. There was so much I had yet to understand about how to make learning efficient. And I think the other major mistake was a failure to understand human motivation. So I thought just by kind of, of like exhorting children, try harder. If you try hard, you can make a life for yourself. If you try hard, you can go to college, you can get out of this hellhole where you live. And I thought these, like, sermons I would give on just like trying hard were going to motivate them. And I think for the vast majority of my students, it was not at all effective.

And thats why I discovered many better ways to motivate ourselves and others today as a psychologist.

So talk about the decision to pivot out of teaching. What was that next phase of the journey like for you?

Well, Jeff, I first want to say it was tear filled. I mean, we got this old couch from my parents. I ended up marrying my classmate from Oxford and then my McKinsey consultant colleague, Jason Duckworth. And that's where I get my very white sounding last name. And we had this old couch secondhand from my parents. It was really ugly but super comfortable. And it had these, like, huge overstuffed pillows. And Jason joked that if we could get all the salt out of that couch, because I cried so much into it. We could just have enough salt for, like, New York City for the rest of the century. I cried so much because it was so uncertain for me, you know, and I didn't want to be a classroom teacher forever. I think that was very clear to me. It's not that I disrespected the profession, but it wasn't fulfilling all of my needs. There was a moment in time where I thought maybe I would start a charter school. I thought, oh, that's how to scale, right? I've got this classroom with 30 kids. I had this urge to scale my impact, but then I was, like, looking at these other principles and leaders.

I just. I didn't have that leadership desire, actually, and I still don't. So I was really stuck. I was really angst ridden. I was like, maybe I should get an MBA. Oh, my God, that sounds horrible. Like, what is human resources? Should I go into that? And then I looked into it, and I was like, no, please, God.

It took an important type of grit for Angela to let in this realization that no matter how much she kept at it, teaching just wasn't for her. It meant stepping away from her life plan, starting over yet again. She was no longer an undergrad radical professional. Change can feel wildly different depending on your phase of life. Angela chose to embrace the unknown as a mid career professional. Married and settled in Philadelphia, she dug deeper into her own curiosity. What was it exactly that she wanted to know? She trusted that question to lead her.

And then finally, I kind of put two and two together, and I was like, I love kids, and I'm pretty good at science, and I think maybe I should go and get a PhD in psychology and figure out how to help kids, not as a classroom teacher, but as a psychologist who unearths their motivational learning processes. I only applied to one graduate school because it was the only one within commuting distance, and that was University of Pennsylvania. And I was 32, I think, and I was accepted. So my classmates were, like, a decade younger than me, but I knew what I was in graduate school for. To unpack the potential of kids and to understand what motivates them, what enables them to be brilliant and what does the opposite. And I started studying it in various ways. One of them ended up being the grit research that I've done on high achievers. But everything I did from the very first day of graduate school to where I am today was motivated by those kids that I was sometimes not helping as much as I wanted to earlier in my life.

More on how grit led the way for Angela Duckworth to become a global thought leader. After the break.

We'll be back in a moment after a word from our premier brand partner, Capital one business.

There was panic that set in that night because I didn't want to let people down.

We're back with Aparna Saran of Capital one business. She was recalling the time she woke up in a cold sweat, terrified that the new product she had been working on might fail. So the next morning, she sat down and wrote an email.

It was Sunday morning, and I said, you know what? I'm going to just, like, share this with my peers. It was very emotional. It was like sort of a cry for help.

Aparna realized that if the new product didn't take off, she needed a plan B, preferably multiple plan B's.

I'm inviting them to be the thought partners so that we are mitigating as much risk as possible, and we have contingency plans in place as we make this move. You'd write something like this and your heart is pounding. Should I send this? It was a super vulnerable moment for me, but then I was like, I'm going to just send this. Like, what's the worst that'll happen? It can't be worse than being on the front page of the newspaper.

So she held her breath and hit send. What happened next would surprise even her. We'll hear about that later in the show. It's all part of Capital one business's spotlight on business leaders. Following Reed's refocus playbook.

We'Re back with University of Pennsylvania and Wharton professor of psychology, podcaster and bestselling author Angela Duckworth. To watch our extended interview with Angela, visit the Masters of Scale YouTube channel. Let's talk about grit, because when you do a Google search for Angela Duckworth, if you were to graph it, it would be a hockey stick starting in 2016. So how did you land on grit? How did you isolate that variable? It's really quite an extraordinary branding as well that you've done here. It's a good word, isn't it, around this word?

It's a really powerful word just on a monopoeic.

Yes, yes.

Yeah. Well, okay, so I did inherit something from my father. You know, I don't say this in the genetic sense, but being incubated in a household that talked about high achievement every single day, I think I was bequeathed, as it were, an obsession with excellence. I love the Olympics. I love three star Michelin chefs. I mean, if you're a world class plumber. I want to watch you work. Right. There's nothing more beautiful to me than the ballet of, you know, human performance at its best. So I did the kind of straightforward. I don't know, I just didn't have anything else to do other than to talk to these people who were Nobel laureates or who had won a Grammy award or, you know, you fill in the blank. And what I was looking for is not what made them different from each other. What I was looking for was the common denominator. You know, what makes a prima ballerina the same as a Nobel Prize winning physicist? I found that they had this common, you know, trait. They had this combination of passion for what they did, unfakable, 24/7 love of what they did. And they had perseverance.

And I think in both dimensions, passion and perseverance. The thing that was most striking was not the intensity, but the stamina. And so I found this common denominator emerging. And I thought to myself, how do I get kids to begin to develop on this trajectory? And then I also just wanted to reverse engineer those high achievers and ask the question, how close can we get to that kind of excellence in our own lives?

So you embark on this research journey, you identify this common denominator. It's then a leap to become, really a public intellectual. Right?

That was a total accident, by the way. I started being asked to do interviews even when I was in graduate school, which I thought was kind of ridiculous. You know, I remember being asked to be on the local news because I had published research. And now we have Angela Duckworth, a graduate student at the University of Pennsylvania, here to talk about the science of success.

News interviews led to more speaking invitations. Chris Wink, co founder of the Blue Man Group, asked Angela to present at a TEDx event about creativity.

Her reply, I don't study creativity. I study grit. Right? And he said, anybody who's creative knows it takes a hell of a lot of grit. For one moment of inspiration, I was like, nah, that's so true.

Angela may have found the media attention unpleasant, even off putting at first, but it was in service of her larger mission, and it led to a worldwide audience for her work through another TED event.

It was like this collab with a public broadcasting service. So Bill Gates and others who were really passionate about education were all asked to give TED talks. I was one of them. John Legend was our emcee and host. So I gave this talk, and I then went home from New York City back to Philadelphia, and I just didn't think about it. I was just like, okay, check. I did my job. I did my best. And then the talk ended up taking on a life of its own. I think, like coaches and moms and dads and managers everywhere started forcing people to watch my talk. And I think maybe there was a message there that was hopeful. To those of us who don't feel as I do, like, you know, we're not the most talented and most innately gifted people, I will say that that was probably the one event in my life that put me into the spotlight. But as I said, it was accidental. It was not intentional.

Angela's book, the power of passion and perseverance, was published in 2016. The book perched atop the bestseller list and became a global clarion call. The success of her book and her talks on stage added up to something new. For Angela, writing and speaking were not just a byproduct of her research and passion. They were a dynamic factor to lean into a whole other dimension of impact to explore.

There was the more gradually dawning realization that I loved words, I loved using them, I loved speaking them, I loved writing them, I sure as hell loved reading them. And I think one of the things that people who become successful and people who scale, as you say, what they do at some point is figure out not only one thing that they do well, but a constellation of things that they do well. So I could bring that love of words with me in my work as a psychologist. And if I could use, then maybe I could do something that would be really special.

Yes to helping kids, no to being a manager of people. Yes to science. No to leaning away from her way with words. Get clear about your mission, which of your strengths can serve it, and equally importantly, the roles to rule out. This is what helped Angela Duckworth forge a unique path to impact. She pared down her career to a few essential components. She also has applied this principle to her writing. Her work is so wildly successful, in part thanks to a hard won commitment to simplicity.

And to me. And I know that writers have different philosophies about the words that they string together and what they're trying to accomplish. But my literary agent, a wonderful Minsch named Richard Pine, he said to me, Angela, you are a teacher. And I think that's how I write. I'm trying to do the same thing I was trying to do with my 7th graders, like teaching them algebra. I'm like, how do I take this hierarchical linear model with the set of time varying covariates and explain to a smart but non social scientist person what the bottom line is for their lives. And it's precarious work because I don't want to mislead by simplifying, but I will, you know, stand up in front of you and say that I think it's honorable work. I think a lot of my academic friends think it's tawdry and possibly worse than tawdry, you know, dangerous. You know, like, they don't like the kind of TED talk. They don't like this, that we're having this conversation. Ugh.

Because it's impure, because it's not academically.

Peer reviewed, it's not nuanced enough. It doesn't embrace the full complexity. Right. There aren't the caveats and the footnotes. You know, it's not just the form, I think, that bothers them. I think it really, in a meaningful way, disturbs them that people would leave out some of the things that they think are important. And I understand that. And they're right, but also I think they're wrong.

What are they wrong about?

Okay, here I'm going to call on William James. You know, there's a kind of a joke in psychology that a psychologist isn't a real psychologist until they've invoked the great William James. So William James was the chair of Harvard's psychology department almost exactly a century ago, maybe a little more. And William James, actually, I wish he had lived to see TED talks because he was very much engaged in the project of sharing what he had learned. I mean, he was a master of scale. He delivered a series of lectures that he called talks to teachers. And you can actually just download talks to teachers for free. It's everywhere on the Internet. He says, what I have learned from giving these lectures to school teachers is that I would learn to take out more and more of this abstruse academic detail and leave in the practical implications and the most basic principles. And I have taken that to heart. You know, William James, he knew that if he could deliver a short lecture on the nature of memory, on the nature of attention, on habit formation, on love, on faith, that he would do more good than giving an 1800 hours, you know, exposition that nobody would listen to.

Yeah, we'll link to the William James talks to teachers to show notes.

Yes, that would be a great service.

What's the most important one liner of your career?

Probably the most well known is that grit is at least as important as talent in predicting achievement. I think that's the one I'm known for, but I'm hoping to live a little longer and to do better than that. What I have been occupied since writing grit, and certainly for the last few years in earnest, is a second book and a second line of work, and it is on the power of the situation. So in a few words, grit is not enough, right? And if you give me more words, you're like, oh, Angela, your one liner can be a little longer. You can even have a semicolon. I would say, okay, Jeff, how about this? Grit is not enough. You must have your situation as your ally. And what I'm obsessed about is something that psychologists, in a way, it's like telling a chef that, you know, you need to make sure you have to, like, put enough salt and fat into a dish. It's like the chefs are like, yeah, we know that it's elementary, but I feel like that about how this power of the situation narrative is blindingly obvious to psychological scientists, but maybe not to those of us who are just navigating our everyday lives.

And even in my own marriage, I thought to myself, wow, you know, my husband was a young real estate developer in 2008, right? And it was a very, very stressful time. He was working some weeks, 100 hours a week. I was on tenure track at an Ivy League institution. We had two young children who had to be taken care of. Like, there was so much stress. And the only trick I knew was, try harder. The only trick I knew was grit. I was like, you know, I'm gonna wake up earlier. I'm gonna stay up later. I am gonna use every ounce of my will to make the life that I need to make for my children and my husband and my career. And I'll tell you that that led to a. A real crisis. It almost broke our marriage. There were just an unbelievable number of therapy hours that we logged trying to rescue ourselves from the precipice. And what has struck me now and what I'm writing about is that grit is not enough. You need a situation. We needed therapy. We needed to reach out to our friends and actually be vulnerable and not just have small talk, but actually tell them that we were in crisis.

He needed to change his work situation. He has an advisory board now of many mentors who help him prioritize in ways that he would never be able to do on his own. I reached out to mentors to help me figure out my research program and help me accomplish it in more effective ways. And so, to me, you know, grit is great, but grit is not enough. And you absolutely need to make your situation your ally if you're ever going to run the marathon of success.

Does the new book have a one word title?

It does. It is easier and it has a subtitle. Can I cheat and give you the subtitle?

I'd love it.

Yeah, the one word title is easier and the subtitle is a better way to be your best. And it's a quote from Maya Angelou who said, do your best. And then when you know better, do better.

What's the action item or the set of action steps? For someone who has got the grit, they know that they're going to work hard enough to give themselves the best chance. The situation isn't yet right. How do we assess that and what do we do about it?

One of the mistakes that I see founders make is because they've had this trick that has gotten them really far in life. Like try harder and be independent to not be a slacker. Right. I think the double edged sword of that is they don't ask for help. And what I would say is a number one action step is like, you should be in a formal community of other founders. There's a power in the solidarity, the accountability and the peer learning of a group. You know, you want to be in a flotilla, not like off sailing on your own. So that's number one. And when I look back at the mistakes that I've made in advising young leaders, it was to not tell them that first. And the second one is related, which is I think you need to make mentors. When you listen to people talk about their mentors, it's like a thing that falls out of heaven, you know, like, oh, I'm so grateful that this person came into my life and they put me on the straight and narrow, right. But they're not just falling out of heaven. You have to proactively make them.

It's a relationship and you need to start at the beginning and cultivate and so forth. So those would be my two pieces of advice to founders. You know, go find another founder. It doesn't have to be your co founder for your startup. It could be somebody who's doing something totally different. But you should be meeting regularly, trading stories, crying on each other's shoulders, and then you should go and very proactively cultivate mentoring relationships.

Theres almost the myth of the lone entrepreneur working late into the night. Whether its coding or solving a supply chain issue or whatever it is, its almost part of the heroes mythical journey. Yet what im hearing you say is that myth should be actually a myth. The reality is the highest achievers have that grit, have that work ethic, but theyre building a community to help them get wherever theyre going. Is that the right way to think about it?

It is. I mean, remember, even Luke Skywalker needed Obi Wan Kenobi. Right. The modern day Luke Skywalker for me, is Diana Nayad. Right. And this is the amazing woman who swam from Cuba to the shores of Florida, you know, a feat that had never been done without a shark cage. I mean, amazing and completely a story of grit. And at the same time, on her last and successful attempt that she had made, you know, after decades of trying and failing to do this, she heaved herself onto shore. And she says this, and I'm going to quote you, I'm going to read it to you so I don't get it wrong. She says, I have three messages. One is we should never give up. Two is you're never too old to chase your dreams. And three is it looks like a solitary sport, but it takes a team.

Angela Duckworth's journey has been shaped by pivots and hard one realizations. She has seen and studied the power of grit. And not being one to believe her own hype, she's gone on to explore the limits of grit alone. In this next chapter, Angela embraces a nuanced, sustainable approach to achievement, one that helps us understand the power of community, of mentorship, and of systems that nurture. Her commitment to rigorous research, coupled with her gift for turning complex ideas into accessible wisdom, make her a beacon for anyone striving to reach their full potential. I'm Jeff Berman. Thank you for listening.

And now a final word from our brand partner, Capital one business.

Throughout the day, text messages and emails kept pouring in. Whatever you need, just let us know.

We're back one more time with Aparna Saran of Capital one business. She was telling us about a Sunday morning email she fired off in a moment of panic. Minutes later, her inbox was overflowing. And the support she found wasn't just emotional, it was practical.

We talked about detailed contingency plans and we created our go to market strategy before we are in full rollout mode, we had stage gates so that we could test and quickly learn and iterate. And within a matter of like six months, as we were rolling things out channel by channel, those stage gates would allow us to pivot if we saw something that we didn't like.

That day, Aparna learned a lesson that stayed with her. Having multiple plan B's doesn't just expand your options, it gives you new opportunities.

The best way to pivot is actually open doors for thoughtful conversations, because humility in knowing that you actually don't know everything, as well as the empathy in knowing that disruption is always drastic and abrupt, helps you go through that pivot with other people in a very different way.

Capital one business is proud to support entrepreneurs and leaders working to scale their impact from Fortune five hundred s to first time business owners. For more resources to help drive your business forward, visit capitalone.com businesshub. That's Capital one.com businesshub.

Masters of Scale is a wait. What? Original our executive producer is Eve Tro. The production team includes Tucker Ligursky, Masha Makatinina, and Brandon Klein. Special thanks to Juliette Lee, mixing and mastering by Aaron Bastanelli and Brian Pugh. Original music by Ryan Holiday. Our head of podcasts is Lital Milad. Visit mastersofscale.com to find the transcript for this episode and to subscribe to our email newsletter.