Every single one of us has somebody in our lives that we love, but we would love to have them change. Whether it's to have them be healthier and exercise more, or be better with money, or maybe clean up after themselves or get motivated and find another job, no amount of pressure or wanting or wishing is working, at least not in my marriage.

We want to change people in our life, whether it's our partner or our kids or our parents or our employees. By doing that, we can control our world. I think in some situations, perhaps what we need is to work on ourselves.

That's not the answer I want to hear. I am so glad that you tuned in today. I'm Mel. I'm so excited about this conversation because you and I are going to be learning from a world renowned neuroscientist whose research focuses on how you can change other people's behaviors and opinions. And you know how I always say that you should share these episodes with the people that you love? Well, this one you are really going to want to share because you're going to learn why. Guilt, pressure, fear, crying, pleading, threats, ultimatums are not working with the people in your life, and they're not working when the people in your life use them on you. And there's a scientific reason why. By the end of this episode, you're going to understand exactly what to do to motivate someone and yourself to change any behavior. Doctor Tali Sherritt is a behavioral neuroscientist and the director of the effective Brain lab at University College London. Her research integrates neuroscience, behavioral economics, and psychology to study how emotion and motivation influences people's beliefs and decisions. And she's also the best selling author of three books, including the brand new book look again.

Welcome, Doctor Scher, to the Mel Robbins podcast. I'm so thrilled that you're here.

I am so excited to be here. Thanks for having me.

I was super excited to have you. Come on. Because every single one of us has somebody in our lives that we love, but we would love to have them change, whether it's to have them be healthier and exercise more, or be better with money, or maybe clean up after themselves or get motivated and find another job. And no amount of pressure or wanting or wishing is working, at least not in my marriage. So I'm just going to paint a scenario for you so that everybody who's listening, whether they're dealing with the situation or not, can start to apply it to that dynamic. So let's just say you have somebody that you love and they're sitting on the couch, and it's a Sunday afternoon, and they're happily watching golf. And as you see them sitting there, you feel this judgment and frustration rise in your body, and you start to think, why aren't they outside exercising? Why are they not like all the things that you would like for them to be doing? And I think we know in our minds that the eye roll or the, hey, it's nice outside, you should go for a run is probably not going to work.

But why do we have this desire to want to control what somebody else is doing? And so what are we getting wrong based on the research about trying to change other people?

So there's a lot that we're getting wrong, but maybe just the premise that, you know, when you want to try to change someone, obviously what they're feeling is you want to try to control me. Yes. And that is really the worst thing. I mean, once someone feels like you're trying to control them, you're trying to restrict their agency, that lowers their motivation. Then we feel anxious.

Why do we have this desire to want to control what somebody else is doing?

So the desire to control is the main desire of a human being, right. We want to control everything. And the reason it's kind of hardwired into us is because it is adaptive. If we can control. Imagine a scenario you can control everything. Well, then, right. You could get all the rewards, whether it is social rewards or just, you know, money, food, that, you know, and avoid all the harms if you were. So we have this instinct, right, of the need to control. We have a need, and then that's true for everything around us, right. And, of course, there's, like, there's individual differences, right. You have these, like, highly controlling people and people that are more relaxed. But it is this need that we all have to some extent. And I think for some people, they kind of learn to overcome them, overcome the needs, and particularly in certain situations, like in a partnership, right. You have to learn that it's not helpful. Right. And I think it's not helpful in a partnership, partially because when you do those kind of things, it makes also the other person feel not only you're trying to control them, but that they're not enough.

Right. That you're kind of, like, seeing the negatives rather than the positives in this other person. So I think in some situations, perhaps what we need is to work on ourselves.

That's not the answer I want to hear.

How do we just let them watch whatever they're watching? So, I mean, you have to pick your battles. Right.

First of all, thank you for explaining this, because you're making me, and I hope the person listening to stop and actually think about the bigger dynamic here. So on one hand, every single human being wants to feel a sense of control over themselves. And so when you were. You used the word agency. Is that what that means? That I'm in control of myself?

Right. Okay. Exactly.

So you want to feel in control of yourself, the person that is in your life, whether it's a partner or a parent or a child or a colleague, anybody, that you kind of would like them to change something. You both are feeling this need to control your own world. And basically what you're saying, and I've never thought about it this way, is that my desire to want other people to just be a little better because it's going to help their health, it might help them with their money, it might make them happier. That's my opinion. My desire to control them is in direct conflict with their fundamental need to be in control of themselves and their own life and their decisions.

Absolutely. And at the same time, part of the reason that we have a desire to change others is our desire to control, even if it's not.

Okay, wait, hold on. Let me see if I got this. So part of the reason why we have a desire to change others is because it's part of our need to control everything in our own life. Can you explain more about that?

Like, we want to change people in our life, whether it's our partner, our kids, or our parents or our employees or colleagues, partially because by doing that, we can control our world, right? To some extent. And, I mean, it's not. It could be subtle, and it could be not even something we're conscious of, but that's part of what's going on now. All that being said, we also have a responsibility to help others, right? To alter others. Even if we think we're not doing that, we are doing that. The way you behave, the emotions that you show to others, that what you do, your choices are gonna affect people around you. We need to think about what is our influence and is it a good one, right? And we have more of it than we think. Fact, you're actually influencing just people randomly around you. So if you sit on, you know, in the subway and you're eating an apple, you don't realize it, but that actually is going to influence what other people around you feel like eating or what they choose later, to some extent, it has some influence, right?

Really?

Yes. I mean, don't you feel that you see someone eating an ice cream and you're like, a lot of times I see someone eating, I was like, oh, I want an ice cream, too. Right? So it has some influence. But let's take another example. If someone's stressed, you don't know this person. They're just sitting, you know, just in front of you on a subway. They will have some impact on your emotional state. And there's many studies showing that people are stressed or make people around them more stressed, even if they don't know them, even if they're not actual people in their life. Right. Just random people. If you're happy and joyful, that also will. It's called emotional contagion. Right. So that will happen. And it happens for a good evolutionary reason, which is if you're fearful or stressed, there might be something around us that is a reason that I should be fearful and stressed as well. Right. So I pick this up, right? The kind of little facial clues that say, you're afraid. My brain is saying, ooh, she's afraid. Maybe there's something dangerous here. And so I then have this fear as well.

And this is all happens really, really fast and really, really subconsciously. Or if you're very excited, maybe there's some. Something around us that I should be excited about. Right. Again, it's not conscious, but our brain does this very, very quickly. So it's important for people to just consider that. That we have a lot of impact on people around us. And I mean much more when it comes to people who are actually in our home, our family, or in our workplace.

I already have a couple takeaways, and I want to pause and highlight them to make sure that I am tracking, because you're making me see things at a deeper level than I think I've ever considered. And first of all, I'm learning that, of course we have influence over the people around us. Of course you have the power to influence somebody's behavior, for better or for worse. So that's one thing. And I think that's good news because you hear a lot of that. You know, you can't change somebody else. I'm also realizing that the need to control your own life and your own surroundings is what's pushing you to push other people to do things. And so that may never go away. But what I'm hoping is that you can teach us how to be more effective with the influence that we have on other people so that we can influence them for the better. So let's go to the scenario where your significant other sitting on the couch, they're happily watching golf on a Sunday, you come in and you see them and you immediately have this sense of judgment and you have an opinion and you have this desire to control.

And I'm also going to say in that scenario, I'm typically somewhat stressed. And so my stress in the situation, even though I think I'm a loving person and I really care about this person and I'm right, I'm certain that my significant other on the couch happily watching golf, is picking up on my stress, either through the tone of voice or the eye roll or some hormone I'm emitting. And I would imagine that they then respond with stress. Is that also kind of part of what's going on, that you're escalating it without realizing it?

Absolutely. And perhaps what you're trying to do is reduce your own stress. Right. Oh, wait, by changing the other person.

That's right.

Because change your emotional state. Right. I mean, there's a lot of reasons why this could be, but a, if you're stressed and now I'm able to impact my environment, perhaps like change the behavior of my partner, that could actually reduce my stress. Right. And so maybe subconsciously what you're trying to do is reduce your stress, or maybe your stress because, you know, you are concerned about your partner, you know, maybe they have a heart condition or. And that causes you stress. And again, what you're trying to do is reduce your stress by altering the other person.

It's so true, because if you're worried about somebody, because you're worried about their spending, or you're worried that they're not taking care of themselves, or you're worried that they're in a dead end job that causes you stress, and so you think the solution is make that other person change, and then this problem that I'm feeling goes away, and then we call it love. It's not that at all. So maybe we can dig into why exactly this doesn't work. Because it is my mission that after this conversation, that as you listen to this, you not only have epiphanies and insights, but you've got a deeper understanding of why the way you've been approaching this for yourself and other people isn't working. And that should inspire you. I hope to try a tactic that will, based on the research. Does fear ever motivate somebody to change?

So it depends what kind of change you want, and here's the difference. Do you want someone to start acting in a certain way, going to the gym, working hard. Right. Or do you want them to stop acting? And that matters? Like, for example, do you want someone not to share confidential information? Right. Do you want to induce action or inaction?

Okay, so I want you to listen, and as you're listening, I want you to think about whatever scenario. And does this work with both other people and yourself?

Yeah. Yeah.

Okay, great. So are you trying to make yourself start to do something new, like exercise or stop doing something like gossiping?

Okay, so it is especially, fear is especially not effective if you're trying to get someone to act. Okay, gotcha.

So the proactive, you're gonna go do this new thing. Fear does not work.

Right. So, for example, telling someone, if you don't go to the gym, you'll be fat. Right?

Okay.

That's a fear strategy. And you're trying to use a fear strategy to get someone to do something.

Okay.

And the reason it doesn't work so well is because of something known as the approach avoidance principle. So what is that? To get the good stuff in life, whether it's a promotion or chocolate cake or love, you need to do something. I'm thirsty. I need to move my arm to get this water and have a drink. Right?

Yes.

So to get the good stuff, on average, we need to act. And so our brain has evolved in this kind of environment where there's a connection between a reward and in action.

Okay.

And so when we concentrate about the reward or we expect something good, a go signal is activated deep in our brain and it makes us more likely to act.

That's cool.

On the other hand, to avoid the bad stuff in life, whether it's untrustworthy people or deep waters or poison. Often, not always, but often what we need to do is not to act.

Yes.

Right. And so there's a connection that kind of evolved in our brain where when we expect something bad, there's a no go signal deep in our brain, goes all the way to our motor cortex and makes inaction more likely. It reduces action. Of course, we're sophisticated creatures. We can overcome this. So that means if, you know, if you think something bad is going to happen, mostly you first freeze, only then you do something. Right. So a reward. I'm running bad thing. I'm standing put. And so you can see why to motivate someone to act, it's better to kind of highlight the reward, not the fear, because fear causes inaction.

That's huge. Okay, so I just want to make sure that I got this because I think I just really understood it. You're basically saying anytime that you use fear or a make wrong on yourself or someone that you love, it causes you as a human being to freeze.

Yes.

It is completely backfiring as a tactic. If you're expecting somebody to go proactively, be better with money, or to look for a job, or to have healthier habits, or to get out of bed earlier or to help out more around the house. If you're using fear and make wrong, the immediate reaction internally is paralysis. Fear, hesitation.

Yeah, that's the immediate reaction.

Wow.

And of course, you can overcome this. So I'm not saying anytime that people are afraid or anytime that you use fear is not going to work, but that's kind of the basic mechanism. We've done really simple experiments where we ask people, they have to press a button to get money. So that's a reward, action, reward. And then we have a condition where they have to press a button to avoid losing money. So they have to act to avoid a punishment. They're much better at pressing the button to get the money. Right. Of course, to avoid losing the money.

That makes a lot of sense. Let's just take an example. Like, somebody that you love is vaping or smoking or doing something that we know has a very negative impact on your health. And you get frustrated and you're just like, I'm just. You need to quit vaping. I'm really scared you're going to die. Your lungs are going to blow up, like, whatever you end up saying and erupting at somebody, why does that kind of, like, scaring tactic not work?

One of the reasons is that we tend to think automatically it won't happen to me. Right? Yes. People, other person who will smoke, you know, they're gonna die young, they're gonna have lung cancer. But I'm probably gonna be okay because I have these special genes. Often what we find is that actually reframing the message and making it about positive and progress works better. So I have a few girlfriends who smoke, and sure, they are concerned about cancer, but I see that really what's driving them to try to stop smoking is that they want to have a nicer glow, better skin. Right. So you want to reframe this to highlight what is the positive outcomes and taking it in a different domain. For example, you might say, instead of saying to someone, if you take route a, you will lose time and money, which is the negative frame, right. You would say, if you take route B, you will gain time and money.

So does this work in both the situation where you want to motivate yourself and in situations where you're trying to motivate someone else to change.

Yes, absolutely. And in many cases, the kind of things that help us in changing others, we can also use on ourselves.

In your research, you say that there are three different types of way that you can motivate someone or yourself to change. Can you? What are the three? And then let's walk through them one by one.

So one is social proof, social incentives. What are other people doing? It is a relatively easy way to change behavior. Right? Highlighting the positive action of others. And let me give you an example of how this is done. Maybe we'll start kind of like on a large level. Then we go into our personal lives.

Great.

So the british government, they used to send a letter to people who didn't pay their taxes on time, and they said, you know, it's really important to pay your taxes. And that didn't help very well. So then after that, they added one sentence. And that sentence said, nine out of ten people in Britain pay their taxes on time. Right. They're highlighting the good behavior of others and that increased compliance by 15% and fought to bring to the government 5.6 billion pounds. So that's amazing. Really easy.

Okay. Now let me ask you, though, because here's the thing. If I listen to that example, I think to myself, if I were to march in and say to my husband, Chris, you know, Tally's husband is exercising every day of the week and he looks really great, that would probably not motivate Chris, I don't think. But that's the social proof. Like, how do you use social proof when you're trying to nudge somebody else in a positive way?

Okay. The other kind of thing to think about when it comes to social incentives and social proofs is, again, we talked about this a little bit before, is that if you're trying to change a behavior, it's really helpful to model that behavior, right. You want kids not to be on their phones and you're on the phone half the time. Right. That's not good. Or you want them to eat well, but then, you know, you're not eating the apple. Well, that's not good. So you need to model the behavior. And so with, like, getting your husband to go out and run, you can come in and, like, be, like, all ready for a run and then, you know, try to convince him to come along with you. Right. Maybe it's more like for you. Right.

Got it. You know, the joke of the example that I gave you is that Chris is the one that exercises, and I'm the one sitting on the couch. So I. Another one of the three ways to motivate people is immediate reward, right? Can you give an example of how you can create an immediate reward from somebody else? And how do you even figure out what's a reward for someone else that they might respond to?

So one clear, immediate reward that everyone loves is kind of like reinforcing them social feedback when they do something. And you say, like, oh, that's great. So a friend of mine, anytime when I ask him about, like, oh, how are your kids are doing? Or I asked him about something that he told me he was having trouble with, he was trying to get over, there's like, sometimes a colleague that he was having a problem. And then like a week later, I was asking, oh, how did. What happened? What he always says is like, oh, thank you for asking. And by saying, thank you for asking, that causes me to want to do that kind of thing again. Right. To be kind of perceptive about what people are telling me to ask about it. So he's basically reinforcing this behavior by giving me an immediate reward. The moment I did this, he said, thank you for asking. And that's my reward. Right.

This is so fascinating, and I think it's really important. And so I want to see if I am tracking with you and go back into our living room, where that unsuspecting person is sitting on the couch happily watching golf, and you walk in the room and you're really stressed out. And if we take what you just told us to do, based on the research, if you were to do something negative and you were to pressure them, you should go or whatever. I'm not going to let you turn off that. You're basically saying the brain doesn't even absorb it. They just tune you right out, and they are not motivated. But if you were to go, hey, honey, you know, it's beautiful outside, and if you go outside and you actually get your run in after this golf match is over, you're going to be so much more energized tomorrow morning. That that would be a better way.

Yes, absolutely. I had someone tell me that they learned about this, and then they went back to their teenage boy, which usually they had a lot of struggles in the evening about when to go to sleep. Right. And they usually said, well, if you don't go to sleep by 10:00 p.m. you're gonna be tired the next day and so on. It didn't work. But then after reading the book, she went back and she said, if you go to sleep early, you'll look better and be more energetic for your girlfriend. And she said, that worked perfectly. Well.

Well, I mean, it's such a simple trick, but it makes so much sense. And I'm even thinking about it with myself. Like, I'm constantly shaming myself, oh, I should get up, I should do this thing. I should do that other thing versus thinking about, well, what do I actually care about? Like, if I were to do this, I'm gonna feel better in an hour, versus, you know, you. And I guess that brings me to the next question, which is, we all know what we could or should be doing, right? You know that if you want to be healthier, you need to exercise today. You know that if you want to write the book, you need to be writing today. You know that if you'd like to be in a different job in a year, you better dust off your resume and do it today. Why is it so hard to make ourselves do those things? Why do we procrastinate when we know what that positive thing is that we do want?

So that positive things in all the examples that you just gave, they're in the future, right? While the good stuff is just in front of you. Right? So the chocolate cake is there. I can have a bite now, and immediately I'll get a sugar rush. Immediately. It's certain. Or the drink is there, I'll drink it. And for the immediate time, it will make me feel good. Right. Or I can sit on the couch and watch golf or Netflix show or whatever, and that will be an immediate gratification. The joy is immediate for all the other things that you said, I will do the action now, but mostly the rewards will be in the future. So I write the book now. It will be published, like, in two years. Right. I exercise now. I will eventually fit into my genes, but it's not going to happen immediately. Right? So there is this problem between. It's a temporal gap between what we need to do, which we need to do it now, and the reward that we will get would be in the future versus the stuff that's probably not good for us, but the reward is immediate.

Right? So that's a problem. And part of the problem is what's known as temporal discounting or present bias.

What is temporal meaning?

Oh, temporal is just time.

Okay, great. So there's a huge gap of time between the action I need to take and the long term benefit of taking this action right now.

Right. And there's this thing called temporal bias, our temporal discounting, which is basically this phenomena, which makes sense by which we value things in the present more than things in the future. It's not that we don't care about the future. You care about the future. But if, for example, I tell people, what would you rather have, $100 now or 110 next week? Most people will take 100 now. We discount the future to some degree, which, if you think about it, makes sense because the future is uncertain.

Yes.

Maybe I'll go to the gym and I won't actually end up being able to get into my genes. Maybe I'll write the book, but it'll be a failure in the future. So the future is very, very uncertain.

So, plus, you've also taught us that we have this imperative, personally, to stay in control. And so what is also in my control right now is the $100 that you're about to hand me or the Netflix show that's on right now. And so that. Is that playing a role in this, too?

Yes, I think because we have more control now. Right. At least a perception of it. In fact, if I do something now, it will impact the future. So I do have some control over the future, but because it's relatively uncertain, because there's so many days and everything can happen, maybe I'll die tomorrow. So I put all this work in and then I'm dead in a week. Right. So it's easier to just go with the immediate. It's more attractive. Right.

And is there a trick to get yourself to act now and do things now that are hard, that actually make your life easy in the longer run?

The number one trick is to give yourself immediate rewards. What do I mean? Let's say usually when you think about going to the gym, you say, I want to go the up. I don't want to, but I need to go to the gym so I can get these future rewards, which I'll be skinny and healthier and whatever in the future. Right. But think about what will you get immediately? Or you can do that for someone else. Right. What will you get immediately if you go now to the gym? Not only what will you get to the future? So let's say for yourself, it might be someone told me anytime they go on the treadmill, they allow themselves to watch a trashy show that usually they don't allow themselves. That's the immediate reward. Or you go for a run and you listen to a podcast, immediate reward. And you can also give it to someone else. There was a woman who came to me after a talk. And she said she wanted to get her husband to go to the gym, and he didn't really like it. But then eventually he went one day, and when he got back, I don't think it was intentional, but she kind of, like, touched his arm and was like, oh, I can really feel your muscles.

And she said, well, that did it. That caused him to go back the next day. So that was the immediate reward.

You know what else I'm gaining from your research is that if the mistake that we've been making by pressuring, judging, guilting, all that other stuff highlights the bad behavior, then when you give your love and attention appreciation to calling out the good behavior, you are really now helping them move toward that instead of creating that paralysis, you're actually fueling the tanks, so to speak. That's super cool.

Yeah. And make sure to do that for some reason, like, our kind of automatic reaction is kind of to focus on, oh, they're not doing that enough. And when people do, do we just like, we might in our head say, oh, that's nice, but we have to actually verbalize that, you know?

Yes.

My daughter, for example, she in general, doesn't eat much or doesn't like to eat, you know, anything that's healthy for sure. We went out and she ordered a sandwich that had, like, vegetables in it. And I was like, and I said, oh, livia, like, well done. I'm so proud of you. You know, so you have to highlight that when people do do these things.

Yes.

A lot of people read that.

A lot of people read that, like, condescending, though, you know how, like, sometimes if somebody, like, is. I I don't know if there's any advice or research on this, but I find that sometimes when people are really defensive, or at least I've that scenario with the kids when our son finally started eating things that were green instead of a chicken nugget and a french fry. And I'm like, finally, that's great.

A vegetable.

Double digits. At least get, like, we were way into the double digits.

One. One is eating, but the other one's not.

But so, like, there's probably before you let it out of your mouth and it's kind of calling out the. Finally you're doing it. It's, I'm really proud of you.

The way that you do it with adults. For example, like, my husband has this new thing where he gets up, he doesn't wake me up. He gets the kids ready to school. He takes him to school, and I just get to sleep. And how amazing is that right?

How did you train him to do that?

I don't know why he decided one day to start that. And he knows I don't like mornings. And, you know, if I can sleep just, like, another hour without anyone waking me up, that's great. But I make sure to say, like, oh, my God, thank you. You know, that was so great. You know, and I. And I think that's. That's good for everyone.

Of course. Of course. The third way you can motivate people to change that we've talked about is progress tracking. How do you use that if you're trying to help somebody get better with money?

Okay, so a lot of progress tracking. I mean, there's a lot of apps for all of these things. You know, there's a reason why lots of these apps, whether you're tracking your steps or you're tracking, you know, your expenses, you know, there's apps for all of these things. Maybe you don't want me to track everything. I don't know what it is that the goal. But think about what the goal is, and then you can track the specific elements that are related to that goal.

How does the progress fuel into your motivation to keep going? Because there must be a connection based on the research.

Right. So it brings. It's just the joy that we feel from progress. Right. When we see that we're progressing, that is really what's causing us the joy. When we do well, that is also joyful, but it is doing better. Right. That is even more joyful. Like, imagine, like, you're running a marathon and you're doing really well. You do, like, free 30, like, 3 hours, 40 minutes, and then the next year, you do 3 hours, 30 minutes. It's still very good. But imagine it's like, oh, now it's 3 hours and 28 minutes. Right. It's so much better because there's some kind of progress.

Right.

We really like seeing ourselves, and in fact, if we kind of just. Even if we're in the top of our game, if we are not progressing, we're just, like, just maintaining.

Yeah.

That can actually be extremely demotivating. We always need some progress in our life, and it makes sense that our brain has evolved to be like that. Right, right. Because what that does, it causes us to try to progress. Right. It causes us as an individual, but also as a species, to kind of go ahead and. Because imagine, like, think about your first entry level job. When you got it, you were probably really, really happy.

Yeah.

But of course, after a while, you kind of are hoping for something else. You're hoping for that promotion. You want to see some progress. And, I mean, it's just the way that we are wired up, and there's a good reason for it. One of my favorite experiments, actually, that show this is about hand washing.

Okay?

So we all know that hand washing is really important, right? And especially important, I mean, for the. To avoid the spread of disease. And that's especially important in hospitals and in restaurants. So in a hospital in New York state, a camera was installed to see how often medical staff actually washed their hands before and after entering a patient.

Oh, man. Ew.

And they found.

I don't know if I want to know this.

They found that only one in ten. Only 10% of the medical staff washed their hands before and after entering a patient's room. Now, this was before the pandemic. Okay, hopefully numbers are different now, but still 10%. Okay. So they put an electronic board, and also, to be clear, the medical staff knew that the camera was installed. Right? So it's not like it was a nanny camera situation. They knew the camera was installed, and yet it was only 10% that actually washed their hands. And then they made one change. They put an electronic board that told the medical staff how well they were doing every time they washed their hands, immediately they got positive feedback saying, well done, good shift. They could see it. The electronic war was above the patient's door.

Wow.

And they saw the numbers going up of the current shift rate and the weekly rate of people washing their hands and the compliance. So the number of people who washed their hands went from 10% to 90%.

Holy cow.

Which is huge. And it stayed there for quite a while. I mean, it was such a big effect that they wanted to make sure that it was real. So they replicated it in another division in the hospital, and here they found something very similar. It started at 30%. So one in three washed their hands, put the electronic board with the feedback, the well done, good shift, and it went up to 90% again. And so why does that work? It works for all the reasons that we just discussed, which is the normal approach, is just to tell the medical staff, if you don't wash their hands, there will be bad things in the future. Illness and disease. So you have to wash their hands. Right?

Right.

And a, it's in the future. B, it's something bad. So it doesn't cost me to act. So now they flipped it over, and now you're washing your hands to get a positive message, which is immediate, and it's positive. Right.

And how about the fact that you're also seeing that other people are doing it? Does that impact your desire to move toward it and adopt this positive behavior?

Right. Absolutely. So there's two other really important things here. One is it's social proof. Right. I'm seeing that 60%, 70%, 80% are doing it. I don't want to be the one who doesn't. Right. I want to do the good stuff, which is what other people are doing. This is very helpful. I know that sometimes when you take one of these, like, city bikes, there's actually a little electronic board telling you how many people have taken these bikes, really in the city. And that's kind of like, that makes you feel like, oh, a, I'm part of this big group.

Yep.

And be like, a lot of people are taking bikes, you know, being green.

Yep.

That motivates me to do. To do the same. So that's social proof. And the other nice thing about it, the numbers keep going up, and they, the same thing with the bikes, they kept going up because people are taking bikes all over the city. Right. So you're kind of there. You're about to take a bike and you see the numbers going up. And when you take one, you know, the number goes up as well. So that's very gratifying.

Yes.

And same thing with the hand washing. You wash your hands, numbers go up. You see it going up. There's progress.

So you're a parent. How the heck do we apply this to our life? Like, how do I use this to maybe get the kids to do chores, to get everybody to help out. How do we apply this?

So, in fact, I would say with kids is the easiest thing to do.

Okay.

Right. So first of all, let's start with the very beginning. You don't want to control or give them a sense that they're controlled, that you are telling them what to do. So, for example, let's say you want them to eat vegetables. Instead of saying, here, eat your carrots, say, do you want carrots? Or would you like cucumbers? Right. So there's a choice. Right?

Okay.

Or even better, make your own salad. So they're in control. Right? Or, you know, a lot of times you may ask, do you want me to choose what your vegetable, or do you want to choose yourself?

Oh, that's sneaky.

I like that one.

I like that one.

Sometimes they prefer, you know, like, especially. I mean, my kids are now, they're not that old. They're eight and ten, but they, you know, dress themselves as that. But, like, when they were younger, sometimes I would choose their outfits, but I would ask, hey, do you want me to choose your outfit, or do you want to choose it today? And so sometimes they want me to choose, but telling me that they want me to choose is a choice. So now I'm not taking the control out of them, right?

Yes.

They're giving it to me. It's a bit different. So they're still maintaining their agency. This comes to play a lot, right? Instead of telling someone, let's say it's like an employee, instead of saying, okay, this is what you're going to work on, right. This is what you need to do. Give people options, right?

Yeah.

Same thing with clients. Even if you're a doctor, you could say, well, this is a treatment, I think. Or you could say, well, here are a few options. Gotcha. Let's talk them through and see what's best. Right. So you're kind of. And you don't want to give too many. This is also interesting. You don't want to. If you're, whether you're a doctor, giving options to people or whatever it is, you don't want to give too many options, because that can be overwhelming. There's a famous study where people are given an option to choose between 60 different jams in a store. And some people are so overwhelmed, they just leave empty handed. Right, right. But two or three options, that's an easy way. Giving people a choice is an easy way to maintain their sense of control, agency and their motivation. Like, for example, you know, if so, I bike to work and I don't always put a helmet on. And so.

Because you're the exception.

Right.

Come on, doc, what are you doing? You're not following your own advice.

Right, right. And so what I do is I say, okay, anytime that I get to work and I have my helmet on, I'm allowed, you know, I can have a little Hershey chocolate or something like that. Something small. Right. So that's a reward. Right?

Can I just underscore something? You are a, like, one of the number one neuroscientists in the world. If anyone's brain needs to be protected, it's yours. So I love the fact that you just admitted, after trying to teach all of us how to change other people, that you yourself believe you're the exception and you have to reward yourself to put a helmet on.

Yeah. I have to say, I probably. I mean, it's probably true that, like, it's partially because I think I'm in the exception, but it is an odd thing. And it's more about convenience. Right? I won't. Well, so in London, where I bike, I had this really bad helmet. So I did put it on every time, but it was obvious that it's not going to help. Right? It was just like, not even fitting. And I literally arguing for why you.

Don'T wear the helmet.

No. Finally, no, I was like. I was wearing the helmet. No, I was wearing it, but I knew that it was just to tick a box. But it wasn't like, it wasn't even fitting. If something happened, it wouldn't. It was like wearing a hat. The helmet was so bad. And it. Months and months and months until I finally, I kept telling myself, I have to go buy it. Finally I did. But this was months and months and months of biking in London with a helmet. That absolutely wasn't protecting me at all.

Here's what I've learned. You needed to attach an immediate reward to that helmet and to the wearing it. Otherwise, you're going to avoid doing it at all costs.

Right. Well, I mean, I did this in this specific example, I was wearing it, but it wasn't good. I had to. What I was trying to do is get myself to go to a store to buy something that's better. Right. And I was like, well, I don't have time when I'm gonna go. Right.

Of course. Immensely relatable. I think what I'm really hearing over and over is that we are naturally wired to move towards the positive. We are naturally wired to move toward the immediate benefit. And so much of the way that we approach change with ourselves and certainly the way we approach change in the people that we love or other people around us is with negative reinforcement, with threats, with pressure, with fear. And so you're really highlighting over and over and over again to start thinking about helping people move toward what's good versus trying to shove them away from what's bad. And, you know, I wonder, we all have that person in our lives, whether it's ourselves or somebody that we love, that is so resistant to change. Is it human nature to be defensive or to not want to take accountability for the changes that are going to make our life better.

So again, there's a lot of individual differences, right? So you have, you actually have people who really like, you know, trying different things and so on, but it is difficult to change because what we're doing now, the status quo, that's the easiest thing. Right? It's easy to just go ahead and continue doing what you're doing. Making a change means effort, and there's all this uncertainty. If I continue doing what I'm doing, at least I know what the outcome is, right? If I try something new, I don't know what the outcome is. It's uncertain. People don't like uncertainty. It's very aversive. But it turns out, you know, because people, most people don't like to be, I don't know what's going to happen. We like to predict, and in fact, that's what our brain is trying all the doing all the time. We're predicting the next thing we're predicting, you know, you're predicting my next word, you're not even noticing it. It's predicting what's going on. So that's what we're trying to do. And we don't like it when we don't know what's going to happen. And change means uncertainty, but it turns out that on average, all else being equal, change actually tends to do us good.

So there's a great study by the economist Steven Levitte, where he had people go online and write something that they wanted to change. And it could be something small, like just change your hair, or it could be big, like entering or exiting a relationship. Entering or exiting a job. So they wrote down what they wanted to change. And then he asked them to flip a virtual coin. If the coin hit heads, go ahead, make a change. And if it was on tails, then stick with the status quo. And then he came back to them two weeks later and six months later. First of all, he found that they were more likely to make a change if they got heads. So 25% more likely.

Well, hold on. Which one was heads? I've already forgotten.

Change. Basically, whatever the coin showed really had an effect, 25%. I mean, it's not huge huge, but it's something, right?

Yeah.

Which, which sounds crazy.

It does sound crazy, because I would have predicted the opposite. I would have predicted that if the coin flip was don't change. People would be like, don't tell me what to do. I'm gonna go change. You watch me. Okay. So if you got the coin toss.

You were more likely to change, which is actually, it's a really interesting question. Why? Then we can talk about that. Why did that even work? Which wasn't the point of a study, but it's an interesting question.

I'd like to know, why does that work?

Yeah. Okay. So it's like giving someone else a responsibility, or it's like, well, I thought about it so much, and now it's as if it's like, you know, the. Someone has told me, right, it's fate, you know, I have to go with it.

It's a sign.

It's beyond me. Something like that. But, okay, so 25% more were likely to change. But importantly, when he came back two weeks and six months later, what he found was that on average, and there's, like, a lot of people in this is study, thousands and thousands of people. On average, those people that made a change were happier. Right? Of course, some people weren't. But on average, a change was related to an enhancement in your well being. And I think there's at least two reasons why this is. One is if you're already thinking about a change, there's a reason.

What's the reason that something needs changing?

Okay. Like, if you're thinking about changing a job or you're thinking about moving house, you know, there's probably a reason that you're thinking about it, which is that there's something that's not great, that could be better.

Right?

And so that's one reason why a change ends up being good, because it probably is time for a change. To be clear, this doesn't mean that, you know, it's recommended to always change if you're, you know, you know, leave your relationship. It doesn't even say what the change is. Perhaps you're thinking about a change regarding your relationship. It doesn't say break up. It says a change is needed. So maybe you have to go to therapy as a change. Maybe it's, like, change your routines, right? But a change is needed. And the second reason, I think, why a change, on average, ended up being a good thing is because a change means more variety in your life. It puts you in a new state, a state of learning. If you make a change, you're now in some kind of different situation, in a different environment. You need to learn something. Maybe you're moving jobs, so you need to learn something. And people, although they don't necessarily predict it, they really enjoy learning. When we are in a state, this is why people listening to your podcasts, this is why, you know, why they're so popular.

That's why you're here.

People love learning. And when they learn, it makes them really happy. There's a simple study conducted by two neuroscientists, Rutledge and Blaine, and what they found is that they had people do a task, and if they did well, they got money, and they liked getting money. They were happy when they got money, but it turned out that they were even happier. When they learned something about the task. So learning really brings you joy, and learning is basically a change. Right.

That's true.

And so I think a change brings, you know, diversity to your life. Variety puts you in a state of learning.

So I want to ask for your advice, based on the research, for how somebody might approach a situation, because I'm sure as they're listening to you, they're thinking, I feel very inspired. I feel very hopeful, and I really want to have a conversation with a person in my life that I do want to support in changing. Is there a certain way to approach a conversation or specific things to say or not say to somebody when you want to talk to them about, like, a touchy subject, you know, finding a new job, taking better care of yourself, how would you approach that to set the dynamic up for success with another adult?

Yeah. Okay. So I think there's a few things that you kind of want to avoid that we talked about. Right. Not seeming like you are giving them a prescription. Right.

Okay.

But rather, what you're doing is kind of exploring different options. And also, I think the focus has to be on what they want, not what you think they should want. Because maybe what they want is different from what you want for yourself or what you want for them or what you think they should want for themselves.

And what you've taught us that we will never get away from is that at the end of the day, you want control over yourself. And the person that you love wants to feel like they're in control of their lives. And so this is a conversation to walk into that really is eyes wide open that you may be worried or stressed or care about this issue deeply, but what really matters is what this person wants.

Right. And what I found interesting is that when you ask people about how they're feeling about things, you just ask them.

Right.

You get really a lot of information. Right. That's when they start kind of talking. So I think maybe that's a good starting point. Right?

Yes.

Something like, so how are you feeling about whether. What is you want to talk about? Like the work, how are you feeling about your job? Do you like it? Right. I mean, that is very helpful. I've seen it with my team. So we have a discussion at least once a year, if not more, where I'm just asking them, okay, tell me, how you doing? Right. And that simple question, which I don't think we ask enough, you get so much information, and from that point, you can really kind of. You really want to focus on the other person about what is it that they do that they like, and what is it that they want to change? Right. Where are they trying to go?

That's true, because if somebody doesn't want to, they're not going to, and it doesn't matter how much you want it. And so getting them to start to talk about how they feel about their health or their financial situation or where their career is going and what they would actually want, that's how you start to tap into some of the fundamental things you've been talking about. What do you do, though, if you have somebody that's just, like, extremely resistant to change? Is there anything that you would recommend based on the research that you try with somebody who just is, whether it's scared, anxiety, digging their heels in, stubbornness, is there an approach that's more effective than another one?

So I think often people who are very resistant to any kind of change is because they have negative expectations of how they will feel or what the outcome will be if they change or they think it's not possible. I'll try and I'll fail. Often it's about our expectations. So I think it's helpful to think about what is it like, how can I get to this positive place, right? If it's really about people having negative expectations of either what they could do or, like, once they get there, what would be the, you know, think about, okay, maybe we can get there by making a specific plan. Right. So I think changing these expectations, which, in fact, means making people more optimistic about something, is motivation for action.

I also think, I know, I feel like I know a bunch of couples that the dynamic is really more about the control. It's not about the health. It's not about, like, the issue at all of finding a new job. It's that the second that one partner says, I would really like you to take better care of yourself, the other person feels like they're being controlled, and as long as they don't change, they're now in control of their own life and their spouse can't tell them what to do. And so I think oftentimes you get in these standoffs with people where you're arguing about health or you're arguing about a job or you're arguing about something else, and it's really that this person doesn't want to be controlled by you. So we've focused a lot on other people, but what are the best ways to motivate yourself to change?

Okay, so, first of all, I think that we have a lot of focus, and we focus a lot about the things that are not good enough. Right. We need to change. We need to become better. I suggest as a first step, maybe let's take some time to think about the great things that we have done. A lot of, like, you know, very difficult things, and every one of us has done really difficult things and obstacles and a lot of things that we do are quite hard, and they all have, like, great skills. And let's focus on that for a while because I know even, you know, and it's true for everyone, but even if you look at this, like, uber successful people have done great things. I mean, they also focus on, oh, this could be better.

Right.

And the reason that's helpful is because that gives you confidence and strength. When you say, look, I've done this and this, and you say to yourself, not to anyone else, I've done this and this and this, that gives you strength to kind of say, okay, maybe I have what it takes to do whatever the next change is that I want to do. Right. And then really, motivation, a lot of the motivation comes from the belief that you can do that. Right. Not having motivation, it could be a few things, but a lot of times it's also like, it's not going to work. Right. It's a pessimism. Right. And so to have motivation, we need to think through what are the steps? What is a plan? So, you know, maybe I want to write a book. Well, that's quite huge. Right. And that, you know, how do I get motivation? Well, then maybe think about the specific steps that I need to do. Right, right. The outline first. Right. Let's do. And then ten pages at a time. So all of these things and just focus on those and then start to think about what is it that I've already done in my past life that suggests that I can do this?

And it could be things that are related, you know, so we're thinking about writing a book. Well, there's maybe you wrote, like, articles, or it could be things that are unrelated. You're like, well, I gave birth. That was quite hard.

Yes.

Or, you know, I raised kids. That was quite hard. So there's a lot of things that we've done in our life that are hard and we overcome them, and, you know, that's good to have in the back of our minds.

So I love that because you're right, a lot of the change comes from a make, wrong and from a should. And if you step one, do an assessment and say, let me just give myself a little bit of credit here. Yeah, I've done a lot of hard things in my life, whether it's related to this or not. And I've also shown up in major ways for other people. All of that is evidence that I'm pretty amazing and that I can apply that to this new thing that I want to do. So if you can wrap your mind by using past experience around the belief that it is possible for you to show up, it is possible for you to chip away at this. What is the second kind of most important thing to add in to keep you moving forward?

You know, what's very helpful is have other people who believe in you. Right. It's nice to know that, like, other people have trust in you because it changes your confidence in yourself as well.

Of course. But I want to just make sure that the person listening who is somewhere in the world right now and does not have that support, because I get a ton of questions from people that are listeners to this podcast, that one of the biggest challenges is I feel like I want to make all these changes, and I'm not getting the support from my family, and I'm getting kind of the side glance from my friends about starting this new real estate business, or my family is busy drinking while I'm trying not to. And so if you don't have that support and you've done step one and you've really looked for your own life, at your own life, for evidence that you can do this, what else can you focus on? Because it's really discouraging when you're trying to change and you don't feel like the folks around you are supporting you.

Yeah. And I'll tell you what else you can do. But before that, I suggest you go and find it. And I think it's possible. So, for example, if you're wanting to, you want to start real estate, let's say you're, you know, a woman, you want to start your own real estate company. Well, they are kind of groups that you can find probably on social media. So I think even if you're saying, well, in my family, I'm not getting support, you could find that support elsewhere. Just try at least to look for it, because I think it's possible.

I am so glad you said this, because here is what I learned too late. I have looked to my family to support me through experiences that they do not understand. Chris is wonderfully supportive. He doesn't have a clue what I deal with day to day in my business because he doesn't run a business like this, and neither do my kids. And so the I love that you said that because also, looking at people who have never been where you're going or don't understand where you are means you will feel misunderstood and not supported. And the best thing that you could do is seek out the people that are doing what you're doing or who you think are competing with you, because they're not. They're the people on the planet that actually understand what you're up against. So thank you for reminding us that there's support all around us if we're willing to look for it and go find it. Well, Doctor Tali Sherritt, thank you so much for being here. And I also wanted to thank you for spending time with us today. And in case nobody tells you, I wanted to tell you that I love you.

I believe in you. And I believe in your ability to not only create a better life, but to take doctor Sharett's words to heart and start experimenting, start trying new things. Stop pressuring the people in your life to change because they don't want to hear it from you. And focus on changing yourself and your own life for the better. Alrighty, I'll talk to you in a few days. And for you on YouTube. First of all, I just want to say thanks for hanging out with me. Thank you for taking time to watch something that will help you improve your life. And I also want to thank you in advance for taking a second and hitting the subscribe button. Here's what I know you're thinking. What do I do now, Mel? Well, I'll tell you what you're going to want to do. You're going to go right here. I've got a whole new video for you. It is five ways to improve your subconscious mind and be happier in 2024. You're going to love this. It is amazing insight from Stanford's doctor Paul Conti. Check it out.