How the heck do you develop rock solid principles that are aligned with you? Because what you just said, I think, is the secret to creating the life that is meant for you and aligning that life with what you value and with really what matters to you. And this notion that you're loyal to your principles, not loyal to people, because I hear exactly what you're saying. I mean, especially those of us that are parents We use that. Come on now. After all I've done for you, right, with our children. All right, Mom. All right, Dad. See, he's laughing because he knows. He knows. But how do you develop principles that you can become loyal to, Trent?

Yeah. I think the first thing that you have to do is know what you want in your life. Just by yourself, what do you want in your life? What What do you want to feel? What do you want to experience? What does your greatest self look like? And you develop your principles around that. What do you want to give? What standards do you want to stand on? What values do you want to have? And that's different for everybody. So one of mine is peace. That is Umro numro one in my life is I prioritize my peace. And so for me, if I know no matter how great the opportunity is, no matter how much I'm missing out on, if my peace says no, then I'm not going to it. So I would tell you, what are the things in your life that you need, that you know will be the GPS and the roadmap to lead you to a greater self, not just externally, but internally. So what do you want to feel? For some people, it might be just honesty. For some people, it might be, I want to be a person of integrity, whatever it may be.

I want to be happy, whatever it is. You have that as your principles, and you talk to your principles, and have a conversation with your principal and say, Do I need to do this? My P says no, or my P says yes, it's all right. And it's hard, but every time I've ignored my principles, every single time, I regret it. Every time. And every time that I didn't ignore my principles, and I stood on my principles, it didn't make sense at first. Sometimes I immediately regret, like, Dang, I'm missing out. But down the line, I'm said, I'm glad that I chose to stand on my principles. So what do you need in your life? And start there. Write down a list, maybe a Five things, three things that you want in your life right now, you want to experience and say, these are my guiding forces to me living my most peaceful and fulfilled life.

One thing I want to acknowledge you for is that we were going to do this interview a couple of months ago. And I got to give you a huge shout out because Trent texted me that week and was like, Mel, Tristan, your son had this opening football game. I am not going to miss it. And being a parent who also has a guiding principle that I do not want to miss out on the important things with my kids, I'm like, Absolutely. Absolutely. In fact, I think it's so freaking amazing that that is what you would prioritize. And I'm calling that out because it's easy to let your emotions take over and to miss out on aligning your life with what actually matters to you. And this is a point that if this is the only thing that you take away from this conversation, which if you're listening, that would be impossible, given how much wisdom you are sharing with us, Trent. If the only thing that you took away is, I got to figure out what I want and what I value and come up with a set of principles that are my guiding force right now.

If you just took that away, that would change your entire life. Full stop right now. I even see the value in that because in what you and I do for a living, it's very public, and there are a lot of friends of ours that also have really big careers, and it's very easy to get caught up in, What's Trent doing? What's that doing? What do we do? But when you understand your guiding principles, you can reel back your own emotions, and you can step back into both making decisions for yourself. I also think this ties back to you being actually a very good supportive friend. Because when you're in your power and you are making decisions based on your principles, you're not letting those emotions rise up and have you engage in behavior that you might later regret. Very cool.

Yeah. I like to sound loyal to my pace, Mel.

Loyal to your pace. Pace. Pace. What does that mean?

Yeah. You're a runner, right?

I used to be.

Okay, so you know what a pace set is, right?

Yes. It's very bad. I'm very slow I'm actually famous for... I ran the New York City Marathon with a bunch of girlfriends, and then we went and ran the one in Houston. And we were just doing it to get away from our spouses because we could disappear to travel. I'm talking, by the time I dragged myself across that finish line, it was like six hours. I'm very infamous for being in the middle of one race and going, You know what? I need a coffee. And pulling off the race and running into a Starbucks and ordering an ice coffee Coffee, using the clean bathroom. It cost me 20 minutes, but I don't care.

That's exactly what I'm saying. You're loyal to your pace. So a pace setter is somebody who sets the pace off in the Olympics. You might see somebody run out in front and they set the pace and they drop off. And what I see, and I wanted to touch on this because you had talked about just comparison, seeing other people doing what they do. So for me, the reason even with Tristan, and I'll say this to that, is I We know there's going to be, and I believe there will be more opportunities, but there's not another opportunity to see his first eighth-grade basketball game. That's a moment. So I think about that. I can create other moments, but I can't get this moment back. And me losing so many people in my life, I understand the value of moments. But being loyal to my pace simply means that, well, if you're not lured to your pace, you're going to burn out. So if you ever seen somebody run a race and they're trying to keep up with the next person, and they're trying to do what the next person is doing, they burn out. That happened to me plenty of times in half marathons with friends.

I'm trying to keep up, and I don't finish because I am trying to run a pace that is meant for them to run. So when I look out and I go into the world and I see our friends and people doing all these things, and I'm like, That's awesome for them. I'm happy. But for me, That's not my pace. And to some people, I might look like a turtle. I doubt it. To some people, I might look like a Cheetah, and that's okay. But the pace works for me. The pace keeps me from burnout. The pace keeps me in my peace. And so I think a A lot of people out there, their pace setter is scarcity. Their pace setter is comparison. Their pace setter is panic. I have to do all these things, or I don't have a lot in my life. And one thing that I can give to myself In my journey, and I've gotten out of pace before. But for the majority of my journeys last 15 years, I've always had my own pace and been unapologetic about it. So I can say no to the big opportunity. I can say yes to the small opportunity because Because I understand what I need to run an efficient race in this life, in my business.

So I would tell you and ask you, what's setting the pace? Is it your confidence? If confidence is setting the pace, it's like, okay, they're doing that. Great for them. But I'm confident in myself that I will get to my finish line when I need to get there. So that's something I wanted to share because it's something that's really changed my life in my journey and me being consistent these last 15 years.

The thing that you have to have that I think is really hard for people to truly coach yourself in that regard, like I'm going to stick to my pace, is trust. There you go. That's it. How do you manufacture that? I'm thinking about it in the context of one of our daughters who Graduated from college, started in the corporate world, then left that job after 18 months, and is trying to figure out what's next. What I see in her is a lack of trust that she's going to figure it out. I think this is a very common thing, whether you've just gotten a divorce or you've been laid off, or maybe you started a career and you now, Oh, my God, don't know what you want to do because it's definitely not this thing, that you can start to panic and not trust the process. So what coaching do you have for anybody that's in this moment in their life where it feels either like the pace is way too slow or they don't have a sense if they're going in the right direction. And that thing that is now driving is panic and distrust?

How do you get back into trusting your life and yourself?

So for me, and I would tell the person, listen to this, you have to. I'm going to break this down. You have to trust even when you don't understand, even when it doesn't make sense, even when everything is going disarray. As an athlete, I have to trust that even if I'm losing the game by 10 points, I have to trust my training. I have to trust the work that I put in, that we're I'm going to make a comeback. And it's the same thing in life. You might be down on the scoreboard of life. The beautiful thing about life is that you have a lot of opportunity, God willing, to always come back in your life. And so a lot of people, Mel, that I feel, and I've been guilty of this, too, we trust external alignment. And what that means is that if everything around me is lining up, then this must be meant for my life. We're on the right path. And I can say directly opposite at times, where everything outside is lined up. I'm like, This ain't it. And then the opposite I guess it has happened, where things aren't lining up, but I trust in my internal alignment.

But how do you... So for somebody who's like, Trent, I want that so bad, Trent. How do I do that, Trent? If I'm feeling like I'm spinning out of control, and I've made all these bad I don't know how to make decisions, or I don't know how, how do you even begin that process of internal alignment and trusting?

Well, number one, you have to let go of comparison. You have to disconnect from comparison. And it's hard because comparison, and this is my heart speaking right now. So if it doesn't make sense, excuse me, but you are enough. And I know that's easier said than done. I know it sounds like some motivational stuff, but you have to really understand that and trust and believe by proving it to yourself. Who are you trying to prove it to? Are you trying to prove it to mommy, daddy, social media? You're trying to prove it to your friends? Are you proving it to yourself by doing that internal work to say, You know what? There's an internal alignment. And it's hard for me to explain. There's an internal knowing. For me, I believe belief is the strongest thing that we can have. When you start believing in what you do, you're not tripping because you know at some point, the door will open. And I believe faith is this, Mel. Believe in a door will open for your life that doesn't even exist yet. And I want to be careful because I'm not telling people to be unorganized.

But I stopped trusting my plan so much. I trusted my plan that I will have to adjust at some point. I trusted my first steps. And if my first steps didn't go right, I trusted there was something bigger for my life. So that's the internal alignment that I talk about. It's annoying in your soul that a lot of us ignore because a lot of us are afraid. A lot of us is like, I hear you, Trent, but my bills need to be paid. I hear you, Trent, but nobody's following me online. I hear you, Trent. I started the podcast and nobody's listening. And then we go to external alignment. We start trusting that, and we move away from that calling, that gift in our soul. So I've always, and it's hard for me to explain, but I've always trusted the thing inside of here, no matter how it looked on the outside. It always opened up a door for me.

Well, the piece that I think you could cling on to, if you're in that spot in your life right now, is trusting that there is something bigger that's meant for your life. One of the ways that I was able to grab onto that for myself when I was in the just pit of despair and lack of hope is the simple act of of getting yourself out of bed on those mornings where you're wallowing in a lack of trust and feeling like nothing is working out. Why? Because as Trent has just told you, you're looking around at everybody else. When you get out of bed on those mornings when you don't want to, that is proof that you believe there is something bigger meant for your life. When you force yourself to eat something that is fuel for your body instead of your crap process stuff that just makes you numb out, the choice to do something good for yourself is proof that you trust something bigger for your life. When you go to the gym, when you don't want to, that is proof. For me, All of those little actions every day, even when I don't even know where it's leading, even when I didn't have a sense of direction, they are small acts of defiance in the face of feeling stuck or hopeless.

And that little rhythm that you can create of, Well, I'm still getting out of bed, and I'm still going to the gym, and I'm still going to keep writing this memoir, or I'm going to work on this business plan, or I'm going to take this online course, even though I don't know where it's leading, that action for me has always helped me say, Because I think something bigger is meant for me. If I sit here and I wallow in it, or if I lay in bed and I stare at the ceiling and I hit the snooze button again, I am proving to myself that I don't believe that there's something bigger. That may feel like it couldn't possibly help when you are lost. But I think both Trent and I believe the same thing, which is that small little momentum that you can create Is what breaks through the darkness and the lack of hope?

I call that soul momentum.

Soul momentum? That's a good term.

Soul momentum. Because momentum, as an athlete, I know how powerful momentum is. It's the invisible force that changes everything. And I fall in love with possibility. What you're just saying is the possibility of something better. And if you fall in love with that, eventually, I believe you will meet the better that's waiting for you. But most people, again, we look at the external, we say, Oh, well, me just getting out of bed, it's not going to change anything. And that mindset will never serve you. So create some meanings in your life that serve your soul and control what you can control and pray about the rest.

In your new book, Protect Your Peace, you I'm going to talk about demanding your worth. How do you do that?

Oh, man.

And you're laughing.

So I'm like, Uh-oh.

I wasn't going to call it know your worth. But I feel like this year or just in my life and everybody, I feel like we need to be on a apologetic some more and actually demand your worth. It doesn't mean that you're kicking in the office door and say, You need to pay me this. It doesn't mean that. It's just simply you understanding your worthiness inside of you. Because the world, in my experience, will try to put you on wholesale. The world will try to cheapen you. And the more you can understand this truth, I believe you were given worth before birth. I believe you were set apart before birth. And so when I look at people and coach people, the number one thing that I see is people don't know their worth. And often, when I ask them, Well, why don't you know your worth? It's tied to something external every time. How people feel about me, how my job feels about me, what's going on? And I say, Well, if your worth is tied to something external, then how can you ever be consistent in loving yourself? Because now you're putting your life in the hands of something that can go up and down.

My followers on social media, the algorithm. If your worth is tied to that, Lord, it's up and down. So I often tell people, Cut the strings in your life. What's the puppet master that's controlling your worth? Cut it. If it's opinions, cut it. If it's comparison, cut it. If it's social media, cut it. And get back to a A solid foundational principle of worth that doesn't change. For me, it's faith for other people, it's other things. And so if my worth is not in the things that I do, but my worth is in who I am, then I'm more confident in demanding my worth. There was a time where I was scared to ask for a certain speaking price. There was a time where I was like, Oh, do I deserve this? And I look back on my life, I say, You know what? Just because they don't think I'm worth it, I'm worth it, I've been worth it, and I will forever be worth it. And I would tell the person, Listen to this. Repeat that every morning. I'm worth it, I've been worth it, I will forever be worth it. It doesn't make you stuck up.

It doesn't make you conceited. It makes you a person that understands how valuable you are. And when you understand that, that's when you activate the power in your life. And so when I mean demand your worth, that means stop settling for less because settling leads to suffering. If you settle in a certain area of your life, you will start to suffer. Relationships, business, friendships, any ship that's selling, partnerships, you will start to suffer at some point. And suffering is poison for the soul. And so demand your worth in that area, demand your worth in friendships. Demand your worth in your business. Demand your worth at your job if you have to. And it means having a conversation. Don't be, I'm not saying to be ignorant in doing it, but start believing in yourself more that you're worth more, that you are worthy. We can tell people all these things and give people all these tools. If you don't believe that you're worthy of it, you will never be coming.

For somebody who has rock bottom self-worth, where do you begin? Because obviously, It's internal, and it begins with how you treat yourself. But if you were coaching somebody who does not have the faith that you have, but that really is like, But where do I even begin in terms of demanding my worth from myself? What are some small steps that somebody could take, Trent? Yeah.

One, you got to strip away everything your worth is tied to. Everything. Every person, every situation, your past. That's the number one killer. A lot of people, and we can get into this, but they live what I call past lenses. They literally put their lenses on of your past, and you see the world that way. So I see the world as shame. I see the world as guilt. I see the world of I can never be enough because of my past. And I would tell the person, Listen to this right now, just because you have some bad chapters, listen to me. Just because you have some bad chapters doesn't mean your story can and will. So it starts with forgiving yourself. It starts giving self-grace. It starts with understanding this truth that helps me. Everybody's imperfect. Everybody got their mess. So just because people hide their struggles better than you, it doesn't make them better than you. So I'll start there. What does it look like to love myself? What does it look like for me to give myself what it needs? What does it look like for some self-care? Start what you can control.

And then from that point, then surround yourself around people who uplift your worth, who validate who you are, who make make you feel good. Sometimes it's not your family. Sometimes the people closest to you don't want the best for you. Sometimes they do. But maybe it's going to a conference. Maybe it's getting around a community group. Maybe it's joining a run club. And the more you can get around people who can just not even validate, but help you understand that you are enough, you start to believe in yourself more. Because I bet you, Mel, that the person that doesn't feel like they have worth, I bet you their environment is full of them feeling like They're worthless.

Yeah. I think if you take what Trent is saying as the fact, because it is the fact, that your worth begins and ends with you, and if you start to just ask yourself that question, what would it look like if I actually did treat myself as if I was worthy?

That's right.

You can come up with the list. I'd say nicer things. I'd get out of bed. I'd make my bed. I'd clean my room. I would start I take care of myself. I would spend some time on some things I enjoy doing. I would stop hanging around with these negative people. I wouldn't waste so much time on social media if I really valued myself. That list of actions is the map. What's interesting, and this is something that I know that you also have experienced in your life, is that this is so critical because when you start to raise your own standards for how you speak and talk to yourself, you hold yourself accountable to a different level. Your own energy from the inside out shifts the world around you. Right now, you are saying yes to things that you don't want to say yes to, that are beneath you, that you don't What do you want to do, whether it's helping somebody move out of their spare apartment, or if it's letting somebody borrow. You don't want to do it, but you say yes, which is a sign of you not valuing yourself. And what's interesting is sometimes, I think the fastest access, and you talked about this at the very beginning, is start saying no.

Start saying no all those times. No, I am not going to go to Mom and Dad's house and cook them dinner. It is your turn, sibling of mine to pull your share. I'm not doing it. When you start to raise your own standards for yourself, a funny thing happens. The world starts to align consistently. They may not like it, but something starts to shift because you're causing it. I love, love, love this. Let's talk to the person that is the go-to for everybody else. Maybe the one's taking care of aging parents, but none of the siblings are helping, or it's the single mom, and they can't get any help from the former partner, or somebody that's taken on everybody's work at work. We've all been that person once or twice, and they're ignoring themselves. What do you have to say to them, Trent?

You tell people how to treat you by what you accept. You tell people how to treat you by what you continuously accept. I'm a believer, and I'm sure there's exceptions to certain rules that people will consistently and continuously give you what you allow them to give you. I believe that you're in control of two things in this the world.What are they?What you give. Nobody can stop you giving anything, and what you accept. So if I was like, Mel, this is a cup of poison. Drink it. You wouldn't accept that. And it's crazy because I feel like, emotionally, We accept so many emotional poisons in our life that we don't have to accept. Nobody can force you to accept it. And the first thing it starts with, again, we go back to setting that boundary, saying no. Boundaries are not walls to keep things out. We hear the word boundary, we think, Oh, boundary is a bad thing, and it's toxic, and no. Boundaries aren't walls to keep things out. Boundaries are bridges to let the right things in.

Oh, that was boundaries are not walls.

To keep things out. It can be. If somebody makes it a wall, where they disrespect your boundary over and over, then it becomes a wall. Hey, I'm blocking you from my phone. Leave me alone. I'm blocking you. But boundaries aren't walls to keep things out. There are bridges to let the right things in. That's in relationships. That's in marriage. It makes it more beautiful. Me and my wife, we've set boundaries with each other. It's that makes it more beautiful. I give her her time on self-care day. She gives me my time, my hours, and we're better for our kids and our family when we come back to that. Do I want to every minute of her life? Yes. I want to know. I don't want you to go out there, babe. But I realize that's what she needs. Friendships, boundaries, your work, boundaries. And the thing that I see is that so many people aren't setting boundaries, or they're setting boundaries and not standing on their boundaries. So if you're the go-to person for everybody else, but you can't go to anybody, set a boundary. Say, Hey, if you can't do this for me, I'm not doing this for you no more.

Unapologetically. If you're the person that's always being there for everybody, if you're somebody's 2:00 AM, and they call you with all their problems, oh my gosh. Then set a boundary. Hey, you know what? If you're not going to take my advice, don't call me no more with your problems. If I can't call you at 2:00 AM, I call you, you sleep. I get the do not disturb. Then set that boundary. And boundaries aren't a mean thing. It's a necessary thing to protect your peace and to protect your energy. Because as we said at the beginning of this episode, you don't get an infinite amount of energy to use. No, it's a battery. If we're honest, some of us protect our phone battery more than we do our soul battery.

So true.

So To bring this back, set boundaries and look at boundaries as bridges. And I think it will change your life when you ask yourself what you need. Can I give them a three-step process with that?

Please. Let's go.

Number one, when you're setting boundaries, first ask yourself, what do you need in your life right now? Write that down, whatever it is. Peace. I need sanity. I need better friends, whatever it is. Number two, then ask yourself, what boundary do you need to set, do I need to set, that will lead me to what I need? The number three, which is probably the most important. Why do I have to, not want to, why do I have to stick to this boundary, and this boundary is something that can't budge. And write that down. What is it costing you? I like to call it opportunity costs. What is it going to cost you not to stick to this boundary? Your future, your peace, maybe you're a mom and you keep saying yes to everybody else and you're frustrated now your kids get that. Maybe you're a dad and you're doing all the things and you can't be the man you need to be for your wife and your family. What is it costing you? Because it's costing you way more than you think. Get clear on that and start there.

Amazing. Trent, one of my favorite things about following you online is you've got this incredible series, A Message to You. I love the hope and the inspiration and the wisdom that you are giving people every single day on social media. And if you do not follow Trent, follow him. Share this episode with everybody, how you can find him. We're going to link to all of it in the resources. But what message do you have for someone who feels like they've lost their way?

If you feel like you lost your way, I would tell you congratulations. And the reason I say that is because if you're lost, that only means one thing. You're about to be found. And sometimes you need to lose your way in order to find a better way. Sometimes you need to lose certain things to gain better things. Sometimes certain doors have to close that you want to keep open. So a better door can come into your life. So I would tell you to have patience, have faith. Never lose your belief. Never lose your worth. And do know better is coming for your life. And you're probably at a breaking point. Again, congratulations. Because a breaking point means one or two things. And I know after this episode, what you're going to choose. But one, it means you're going to break down. We're not doing that. Two, it means you're going to break through. And you're about to break through to a level that you can even imagine because of everything that you went through. It's building you, not breaking you. Keep going.

I believe you. That's what I love about listening to you. When I hear you say that in the conviction in your voice, I believe you. And I know as you're listening, you're like, Trent, give me more. Give me more. I believe you, too, Trent. So what message do you have for someone who's worried about their kids?

If you're worried about your kids, I get it. And that's a justifiable worry. But you have to learn how to let go and trust. I know so many times we want to control our kids because we want to protect our kids. But you got to understand that, number one, you're doing an excellent job at planting seeds. But that's all you can do, is plant seeds. As they continue to grow, they're going to make their own choices. And I Let me tell you from my life, my mother plants so many seeds that I didn't listen to until I got about 28, 29 years. I'm still learning. But at the right time, those seeds took harvest in my life. So that work that you're doing, mom, dad, It isn't in vain. And your kids have a life that they're meant to live, a journey that they're meant to go on. So let them go. And you just be the support system on the way. But give yourself some credit because you're doing things that you will never get thanks for. And that's what a leader is all about. Proud of you.

Thank you. Thank you for saying you're proud of us.

For sure. It's a lot.

Yeah. And I loved what you said about you're doing things that you're not getting credit for.

Yeah.

Whether you're a parent or not, I think recognizing that yourself, that you are showing up, that you're a good person, and that you're doing a whole lot that you're not getting credit for. What message do you have, Trent, for someone who is struggling with their purpose?

Yeah. If you're struggling with your purpose, I've been there. I would like to make this suggestion to you, this idea that I have. What if purpose isn't something that you search for? It's who you are. What if you're searching for something that already exists? I believe that purpose is you. I believe you are created for purpose, on purpose, to do purpose, to share purpose, to breathe purpose. I think what you're searching for is placement, it's validation from this world. I would like you to take ownership on who you are. Because I thought the NFL was my purpose till I lost it, then I felt purpulessless in my life. But now I believe that I am purpose, so I can take my life anywhere to create value, to make the room better, to use my voice to uplift. And it's the same with you. So if you're at your job and you feel like this job holds no purpose, and I know you want to get out of it, I always tell people, if you can't change your situation, you must change your mindset towards it. So you bring the purpose into the job. You bring the energy into the job.

You bring the shift into the job. In whatever environment you go around, you make it better. And as you do that, you increase what I call a magnet. And that magnet will bring the right things into your life. That magnet will increase what you need. And you don't have to go on this journey of chasing, because often we chase and we're being led by scarcity, comparison, pain, and we find things that aren't meant for our life. But if you just stopped, reflect, and pause right now and said, I am purpose, say that, I am purpose. And really believe that, you'll make impact in this world greater than anything that could ever be measured. Incredible.

What message do you have for someone who needs to exit a toxic relationship?

Leave.

Protect your peace.

I would ask you that question I asked early in this episode. Do you want to die unhappy? I know that seems very, very like... But it's the truth. This is why I know you haven't left. Because you're afraid. You're afraid of the unknown. You're afraid of leaving something that's familiar. Even if it's a familiar pain, most of us will choose a familiar pain, then go seek an unknown peace. But I'll tell you this truth about moving on. Moving on is less about what you're moving on from, and more about what you're moving on to. So create better value in what you're moving on to. Create a compelling future that pulls you away from that toxic. Because once you experience a life of peace, you'll never go back to that situation again. I'm sure you have an X that you look back and say, How was I ever with that person? It's because you grew and to what you deserve. And I know this is harsh, but you deserve exactly what you settled for. I believe you deserve more, but you got to believe that yourself and go get it.

We're learning incredible insights from the 86-year-long Harvard Adult Development Study. We're here with Dr. Robert Wauwinger, who is breaking down the amazing insights from this research study and helping us live a good life. One of the findings of the study is that your relationships not only create a good life, but they actually make you healthier. They make you live longer. And so can you talk a little bit about how the connection that you feel with people in your life or even warm connections with strangers helps you manage stress?

Yes. I mean, there are a bunch of ways it does that. One is it makes us feel we're not alone. Feeling like we're not alone is vital. Feeling like someone will catch me if I fall. Feeling like we belong. It's one of the reasons why feeling part of a group matters. It's why being excluded from a group is so painful. We need to feel like we belong to feel good about ourselves. So even the small interactions we have, like when you go into the coffee shop and you have a nice exchange with the barista who makes you your latte, is that moment of connection where, Yeah, how's your day going? And sometimes people will actually tell you how their day... They'll really tell you, not just on automatic pilot. And that that helps us feel like we're with someone else and we belong, and we're seen by someone else.

Can you talk a little bit, based on the research, of why these small moments and these small conversations, even with a stranger, throughout the week, really are an important part of living a good life?

What we know is that those conversations with strangers, again, help us feel connected, help us feel affirmed. They did an experiment in Chicago, where there are a lot of commuters on the Chicago commuter rail system, and they assigned some people to do what they normally did on their commute, which is to look at their phones or read a book or whatever, listen to music. And the other people were assigned to talk to a stranger. And they asked people, How much do you think you're going to like this assignment? And the people who were told they had to talk to strangers thought they were not going to like it. When they completed their assignment, they were all asked, How do you feel now? The people who talked to strangers were way happier than the people who just sat and did what they normally did on their commute. And it seems that the connections we make are energizing much more often than not. That, yes, sometimes we can get into a conversation we don't like, but more often than not, it's like, Oh, it's nice. It's nice to say hello to you. It's nice to complain about the weather together, whatever it might be.

It just makes me feel like I belong.

This is something that I have always done. I always said it was because I grew in the Midwest, just very friendly. I just am always talking to people. I'm always saying hello to people. I'm the person that gets onto an elevator. We're staying at a hotel, and there is this big electrical conference there. And so we get into the elevator yesterday. It's probably 7:30 in the morning. It is full of, just imagine a group of seven electrical contractors. Get that picture in your mind. They're all standing there crying. I'm like, Hey, guys, what's up? And first, silence.

Who is this? Yeah.

And I'm like, How's the conference? And they're like, Oh. Then one guy starts to talk, and then all of a sudden, like popcorn popping. Next thing you know is we're going down the 17 floors, we're chatting it up, and I'm recommending the almond croissant at the bakery and the cafe. And so I love that. And I realize that it's not even about being extroverted because I'm really more of somebody I'm realizing who's more ambroverted. I'm extroverted at work, but then I'm literally A I never leave my house thing. But I am so energized by it.

Right. So how did you feel at the start of the elevator ride and then at the end? Can you compare?

A thousand %, I compare. As I got out of my hotel room alone and I'm checking my phone as I'm walking down the hallway, and then I'm turning right to walk down the other long hallway, and I'm still on my phone, and I'm thinking about my workday, and I'm trapped in my head, and then I walk over to the elevator, and then I hit the button, and I'm so not present that I step on the first elevator that dings and it's going up, not down. So then I go up alone in the elevator for another seven floors, and then the first contractor walks in. And the second I looked at him and I said, Good morning. And he smiled and said, Good morning. I felt a little burst of energy. It was like I was immediately now in the moment and not on my phone. I was now present with another human being staying at the same hotel. The door shut. And as we start to descend, I turn, I'm like, Were you in the elevator with me yesterday morning? And he laughed. He's like, I don't think so. And I'm like, Well, you probably would have remembered it because I was yapping with everybody in the elevator.

But there was somebody in there, and then the doors open, and now we're talking. And so then somebody else gets in. And I say, Good morning. And then the guy looks up, Good And then we stand in, and then the doors open again. And so as everybody then starts to get on- You were the greeter. Yes. But the energy in the elevator shifted. Nobody was on their phone. And we didn't solve the world's problems. But even just getting off the elevator, and then as I exit, Have a great day, everybody. And a couple of people, Hey, you too, thing. I was present. I I felt a little less alone. I felt a lift of life force energy from other people. It shifted my mood, and it changed the day.

And what you've developed is a habit of doing that. And what is worth pointing out is that it's a habit we can develop, that even though it's a little awkward at first, if you just keep doing it, it'll become second nature. But I had to develop the habit.

Yeah. And I think it's really important to note something that this is really important because you underestimate how big of a difference it makes in your life. And I'd like to offer one other example of how you can do this, because I know that for a lot of people, striking up a conversation or making small talk feels either scary or trivial, and it's not. And what I've noticed about making this a habit of creating what you and the research have found are warm connections and these small social day-to-day interactions, is that I notice that I would rather feel the way that I felt when I got off the elevator this morning at the hotel, having just chatted and saying good morning to people in the elevator. I'd rather feel that tiny little buzz and lift in my mood than the way that I feel when I'm standing there lonely, looking at my phone, waiting for time to pass by, that I have realized that I have a choice about the experience in my day to day life that I can create for myself. And so another way to do this is you probably go to a coffee shop most weeks and simply complimenting somebody, either on their nails or the shirt they're wearing or how good the coffee looks.

And then after doing that three or four days in a row saying, Do you mind me asking what your first name is? I feel like I come in here every day. I see I don't even... I'd like to just... I'm Mel. Yes. And then here's a pro tip. When you turn around after you say their name, write their name in your contacts in the notes under the entry for the coffee coffee shop. And as you pull in tomorrow morning, if you're like me, you will forget that Evan is the dude that is at the coffee shop at the hotel I stay at all the time in Boston. I now know his name. He knows my order. Yeah. Because I use this and I refresh my memory the first couple of times. So when I walk up, I'm like, Oh, it's Evan, right? Oh, I'm Mel. It's great to see you again. That that small thing, as crazy as it sounds, it makes me less lonely. Absolutely.

And it makes the other person Evan feel seen. Evan feels like you see him. You're not just doing some transactional thing. It's like, I see you, and I'm glad we're here together.

And here's the other piece, if I could take it to an even more profound level. Every one of us wants to create more meaning in life, and you want to feel like you have discovered this deeper sense of purpose. I will go to my grave knowing that I feel that my life is more meaningful, and I am experiencing it at a deeper level, simply because of this one habit of forcing myself to create these warm, simple connections and conversations with strangers as I go about my day. It's almost like being tethered to a mooring that keeps you present in life, that keeps you able to ride the waves and locate a sense of energy and goodness as you go about your days, no matter where you are.

Yes. And one of the things I would add is that we can't always do it every time. So sometimes you're going to be in a bad mood or you're going to be really preoccupied with something and you're not going to be able to reach out, to get outside outside of your own head and do just what you're describing. It's okay if we can't do it every time. Do it when you can.

Well, I find that sometimes those small things take less energy than trying to refuel with a deeper conversation from somebody else. Yeah. Can you talk a little bit about what the study says about the importance of romantic relationships to your happiness and health and to living a good life?

Yes. Actually, I was talking about this to a group of people, and one woman raised her hand and said, Well, given all you've said, if I don't have a partner, should I just walk in front of a bus now? And the answer is absolutely not. You don't need a romantic partner. That romance is great, sex is great, intimacy is great. Intimacy can be with all kinds of people. It may be that you don't have a romantic partner right now in your life. That doesn't mean you never will. But if you don't have one now, there are ways to be intimate with close friends, with other family members. And so what we're finding is that these benefits of relationship don't require a marriage license. They don't even require living in the same place with somebody. That you can have people in your life, maybe just one or two, who are your close friends who you share your life with, and that there's no special arrangement you need to have with them. Now, that said, what we do find in the research is that living with somebody in an intimate partnership actually keeps you healthier longer and helps you live longer.

But there's no mystery about it. It's because it's somebody to remind you to take your medication when you're older. It's somebody to It reminds you to get off the couch. It's somebody to drag you out to a gathering when you're stuck watching Netflix.

You make it sound so romantic.

Well, I know. It's not so romantic, but it is really just the day to day that other people make us better by keeping us on track. It's somebody to get up for. It's somebody to get dressed for. That's one of the reasons we find that many times when one partner dies, the other partner doesn't live that long afterwards when we're very old, because there's a way that living with another person helps us stay in the world and take care of ourselves.

Is that the same reason why pets are so good for your health?

Oh, yeah. Pets are great. First of all, they get us up, they get us to walk. But also pets love us, especially dogs. Dogs are particularly emotionally attuned to their masters. Pets provide comfort in a way that, again, literally lowers the fight or flight response. We can measure it. When we're petting a dog, the body calms down.

I want to go back to something that you said. You mentioned something about even just having a friend or two that you have a much deeper or an intimate connection with. Do you have two or three examples that might get somebody's mind thinking about things that they could plan or do or ways they could look at their friendships to amplify them?

I do. Our lives are so busy, and we're pulled in so many different directions. And what we find is that often we want to see people, but we don't. So one of the things you can do is set up a regular contact with somebody. So let's say maybe there are just one or two or five people who you say, I got to have these people in my life regularly. Make it happen. I'll give you an example. My co-author for this book we wrote, The Good Life, is Mark Schultz. He's been my collaborator for 30 plus years, but he's also my friend. So Every Friday at noon, we get on the phone. He lives in Philly. He's not around Boston. So I might see him once a year in person. But for 30 plus years, we've had a phone call every Friday at noon. And yeah, we We do talk about research and we talk about our writing together, but we talk about our kids and our marriages, and we talk about everything. Now, one of us has to cancel if we're not going to meet Friday at noon. That means that it's going to happen by default, and that means it happens much more often than not.

It's rare that we cancel a time. What if you had a friend like that who you said, once a month, we're going out to dinner? So what I'm saying is, try making one thing regular in your life with a friend or a sibling or somebody who you just want to say, I don't want to lose this connection.

I want to tease that out because I think this is something that you could listen to and nod along and be like, Aha, aha, aha. And so I want to make sure that you really understand what we're saying here, because over and over and over again, living a good life is about the things that are right in front of you that you're not seeing. Yeah. And everybody's busy. And if this matters to you, what he's recommending is that you schedule it as a reoccurring appointment. It is already set up. The babysitter is locked in or your friend is on board. And so you've already done the hard part of moving from thinking about it to doing it. And the appointment itself is what keeps you connected. If you have it in the calendar, it's more likely to happen. And there's something that I did that really helped me tremendously, which is I have a habit every morning where I send a text to a friend or a family member just saying, I was just thinking about you, or sending a photo, or whatever else. And if I really do want to get together, I say, I would love to see you.

Are you around next Thursday? Or I saw this photo come up on Facebook. I just say, I was thinking about you. And we We underestimate how much it means to somebody else, and making it a habit to do that first thing in the morning, every morning, has fanned the embers of old relationships, of people that are still friends. I just never see them. People that I went to college with, high school with, people that I used to work with. You have many more people in your life than you realize. And these small habits actually help them contribute to creating a good life.

Absolutely. Mel, you are the poster child for what we call in the book, social fitness. These small actions, like physical fitness, like something you do every day to keep yourself socially fit. And it can be small things, like a text. It could be Somebody with a long commute, like you say, Well, I can't add anything to my time. Well, if you have a hands-free phone in your car, use your commute time to talk to somebody instead of listening to music or listening to the news. Reach out to somebody. There are all kinds of ways you can add to your life without having to add so much time that you are more stressed.

Did the study give you any guidance on what makes for a good friendship?

Yes, several things. One is what we call authenticity. All that means is, I feel I can be myself with this person. I don't have to put on any act. I don't have to hide big parts of who I am with this person. That that sense of just being able to show up as yourself means a huge amount in terms of the comfort with which you can be together. The other thing that makes a good relationship is curiosity. If you think about it, especially with long relationships, we think, Well, I know this person. I know what they're going to say. I know how they're going to react. Bringing curiosity even Even to long-standing relationships can be so good. One of my meditation teachers actually taught me this first. He said, Your job, when you go sit down on your cushion now for the one-thousandth time, As you meditate, is to ask yourself, what's here that I have never noticed before? So what if you're sitting across from your friend at the coffee shop and you ask yourself, what's here that I've never noticed before? And just bring curiosity, even to the relationships that you think are routine, mundane, like the back of your hand.

You know what's interesting that I just thought about is that if you think about your own life and you go back to half the age that you are, looking backwards, you realize how much you've grown, how much you've changed, how different of a person you are, And yet we don't give that same perspective to the people in our life. Like, your mom has gone through the exact same amount of growth, even though the habits on the outside look the same. Your partner is a totally different human being. Yes. Even though they look the same to you, your friends have had so many things happen in their life that have changed who they are and what they care about. And yet you still show up and talk about the same old sports team and how are the kids? And there's something so much deeper going on.

Yes. To notice how somebody has changed can make someone feel so seen and understood.

Do you have a good question? How would you advise us if you're sitting here listening to this and you're considering everything and you're thinking about the just treasure that is right in front of your face with the people that are already in your life, how do you lean in without sounding like some weird cheeseball that's just listened to a podcast episode, and now you're like, so if you thought about how much you've changed in the last half decade. I'm curious, what's a way to broach this with somebody?

Yeah. Well, one thing we could do is notice change. To say, you're doing that differently than you used to. Tell me about that. I've noticed this. Is that right? Do you think that this is more important to you than it used to be? Or just to notice and ask, have I got that right?

I can think about a time when my brother-in-law turned to me and he said, You're really different than you used to be. And I just wanted to acknowledge just how much work you've done and how fun you are to be around. Of course, I immediately I immediately went to make myself wrong, like, wow, I must have been a real bitch before I came out. But I remember feeling very touched by that. I think that's a wonderful suggestion to say to somebody, I've noticed that you're a lot calmer or that you seem happier or that something's off. You don't seem like yourself.

Yeah. Or that you're spending more time on this. You're spending less time on that. Or you seem less worried about this, just anything, because partly it's saying, I notice you. I don't just take you for granted. I think about you and how you are.

I'm stealing that. I love that. Take it. I am. I'm grabbing all this, and I'm going to run back into my life. It is so easy to get hooked and triggered emotionally when somebody else's frame of reference is not the same as yours. Correct. And we walk around thinking that absolutely everybody that we meet, our parents and our friends included, have the same level of therapy, have the same way of thinking, have the same way of loving that we do. And people don't. And we make assumptions about that. And then we are pissed off, or we are emotionally triggered, or we are devastated when it doesn't match what we want to hear. If it's okay, can we take some time to really un hack it for the person that's listening?

Yeah, let's go deep.

Let's start with how you define what this thing is. And can you give us an example of how the person listening might be able to use this concept of frame of reference to create better relationships with somebody in their life?

Yeah, absolutely. So frame of reference really is how someone perceives the world, the words they use, and actions. So when somebody comes in and yells, if you've come from a family of abusive, verbally abusive family, let's say, where you've just yelling actually triggers you, if someone comes in and yields, your frame of reference is danger. Run. If you come from a Greek family where everyone yells, and someone yelled, I'm like, Oh my God, it's my peeps. My frame of reference is when someone yelled, it feels good. It means that everyone's happy and excited. So you can imagine two people in the same room communicating over something, and their frame of reference is completely different. It's literally like I'm talking Chinese and you're talking English, and we're not understanding each other because our entire perception of words, actions, and behaviors are all based on our own beliefs from growing up. Got it. Does that make sense? Yes.

And the reason why this is powerful is because if you understand in your example that you're not triggered by yelling because your association growing up in a very loud, blah, blah, blah, blah, dramatic response because that volume and yelling in their household meant something else. Correct.

So now when you see somebody acting out of accordance to what you expect them to do, right? So you know when you go into a conversation, you're like, Okay, they're going to say this, and then they say the comp... You're like, They're offended? How the hell are they offended? I thought that that was going to be a great news. That's an indication you actually probably have a different frame of reference.

I would imagine that most couples therapy is nothing but a therapist trying to tease out people's frames of reference, which is their conditioning from their life experience, which then leads to your beliefs. And this needs to be shouted from the rooftops, because what you're talking about at the highest level isn't allowing someone else to treat you poorly. What you're talking about is developing a skill where you do not allow other people's frame of reference, or other people's emotions, or other people's opinions to derail you. Yes. And at the same time, because you're not derailed, because you're not emotionally triggered, you have this objectivity to truly hold space for that other person. And obviously, this is a lot of work, so you do it with the people you care about. It's hard to do with strangers. But even And so it's a way to not be emotionally hooked. Now, we're in a story where you're probably 16, 17 years old, and you feel run over by a train at the moment.

I'm in tears. I used to be called Daddy's Little Girl. So you can imagine the This entire thing, when my dad doesn't believe in me, it is tearing me apart. And so I still went to college. I still studied film.

So did you study film in the UK?

Yes. So I studied film, yeah. I got a degree in movie making.

And so was there a lot of eye rolling in your house? Or what happened once you started down the path?

I think my dad... So it's funny how traditional families are. They'll push you to get a college degree and something that's prestigious, and then they wait for you to get married. It's literally like, my dad was like, Get the college degree only so I could go and get married and then not do anything I don't want to dismiss. Like freaking being a stay-at-home wife is the hardest job ever. Can't imagine being a stay-at-home wife with kids. Oh my God. Literally, hardest job ever. But my dad just assumed I'd get the college degree just to get me to marriage. Marriage just gets me to kids. Kids just then get you to dying. It's the projected life that a Greek woman is going to have in my dad's eyes.

Because that's his frame of reference.

Correct. So when he said, Okay, fine, go to college, he'd just been like, Okay, three years. She's going to meet someone. She's going to get married. So there was no eye rolling, because for him, he already thought, Well, she's going to find a guy, get married, and it won't matter in a way. So the dream of movie be making. I just lent into it. And so I didn't have any backlash once he had said, Fine.

Because he already had in his mind a different frame of reference. This isn't going to work out anyway, because I know what happens here, because my frame of reference is she gets Correct. And it's such a fabulous tool because everybody in your family has a frame of reference about what they think is about or should happen in your life because that's what they've experienced.

Yeah, exactly.

And so you study. You now are tapping into this ambition. What happens next?

So I'm thinking, okay, I'm getting this degree. I'm working. But all of my dad's concerns are like, in my little ear.

You don't know anyone in Hollywood.

How are you going to make movies? All these voices.

I'm looking at you because if you're watching on YouTube, you see it. But if you're listening to us, Lisa Bilyeu has such a extraordinary style, and she is so distinctive, and gorgeous, and powerful in her style. And she has this fabulous stack of earrings. And so as you reached up your little hand and you started to wiggle your fingers, I started thinking about... It's almost like wearing an ear cuff that's going, you're going to get married anyway. That's always right there hanging around, just chirping in your ear.

Yeah, except you can take earrings out at the end of the day. You can't take the thought out of it as easy. But It's so true. It is that voice echoes, and you remember that stuff. The stuff that really stings is the stuff that you remember. And so it was repeating in my head. So as I was finishing college, I was like, what is that next move? I don't know anyone in Hollywood. I I have zero contacts, and I don't have a visa. And then my roommate walks in, and she hands me a brochure for the New York Film Academy. And it's an eight-week course. You get to go to America. You get to film on the backlots of Universal Studios. You actually get to use their sets. You get to use their props department. It was literally like a dream come true, and it was just for eight weeks. And so I was like, okay, I have to persuade my dad now to fund it because I had no money. I was in college. I just finished college. So I was like, This is dream come true. I get to go to America, I'm going to prove myself in eight weeks and I'm going to get the five-picture deal, right?

Like that. So that's the lie I'm telling myself.

But the lie was helpful.

The lie propelled me forward. So I actually don't mind that. So I go to my dad and have to convince him again. And I'm like, Dad, I know that I said that I'd finish college and I'd get a job, but I actually need a lot of money to go and study film in America for eight weeks. Again, we just argued. And eventually, he's like, As long as you promise me that when you come back, the first thing you're going to do is take seriously and get a job and get a career until we find the guy. He didn't say that, but that's what was underlined. So I said, Yep, deal. So I go to America and my life changed forever.

What happened?

So I walk into the New York Film Academy, and I'm like, Wow, much And I'm like, That teacher, my teacher's really freaking hot. And I'm in class. This is a school for adults people, just to give context. I'm 21 years old. And I'm like, My teacher is really smoking, and he's very talented, and I get very turned on by talent. ' And so he shows his movie, and I'm really interested. And he ignores me, Mel. And I'm like, God, this guy. ' So anyway, to cut a long story short, a month in, he turns around and ask me on a date.

So you're still taking the class? So I'd finish- You got four weeks left, baby, because it's an eight-week class. Yes.

Look at her counting. But the last four weeks was practical. Okay. So I didn't have any more classes with him. You just have to go out and make your movie. Okay, great. So on the last day of my last class, it was like, I hint, we're going out with friends. He's like, Why don't you give me your number?

And how much older was he than you? Four years. Okay, so this is not like some 40-year-old dude.

No, no, no. Okay, got you. So he comes picking me up on the first day, and it is not what I was expecting, not what I thought I'd been taught as a young kid. Having a car with rims was a sign of wealth. Wealth meant security. Having a guy that wore so much cologne was almost like a calling card right? Like I'd grown up with. And I open the door, and this guy is standing there, and he comes straight from work, and his car's a mess, and it's dirty, and it's half broken, and the back seat is full of just complete junk. And then he opens the car door for me. And I was like, Wow, chivalry is alive. So all the things I had on my checklist that you think you look for, none of that was there. And then he surprised me with this, and I was like, Wow, this is interesting.

Well, what's interesting, and I want to stop here, is that this is an example of your frame of reference.

Correct.

Yes. Because your frame of reference, growing up in just the neighborhood, in the community that you did, is that the cologne and the fancy cars and all those things is my frame of reference for a good catch. And then he shows up and doesn't match it. But then all of a sudden, because you were like, the door was opened. Exactly.

And we went to It's a B restaurant. It's a B restaurant. So in California, I wasn't sure if it was worldwide or countrywide, you rate a restaurant and you have to put it legally on the front of your window. And so an A means that you're great. A B means- What? A B means, Oh, my God, we're about to shut you down. It's like the health department.

So you don't go to somebody that has a check for a good bill of health. You've got like, eh, sketchy. Yeah.

So he takes me to a strip more restaurant on our first day with a B rating for health, and he starts asking me these crazy questions. I've I've never been asked before on a first date because I'm used to guys posturing. He didn't posture. He was just like, Oh, so why do you believe in God? And he was sincerely asking.

And he's like, Oh, right. Like on the first date? On the first...

Oh, we talked about God and porn all in one date.

Wow. And that's either going to lead you right into somebody's arms or straight for the exit door.

Exactly. And I was fascinated. I was like, this guy isn't posturing. He doesn't care what his clothes look like. He actually wants to know what I'm interested in. He's not just trying to create conversation for conversation's sake. And I was mesmerized. And I'm thinking, this is going to be the best holiday fling ever. When I'm 90 years old, Mel, I'm going to go back as a grandmother, and I'm going to tell my grandkids that once upon a time, I had this hot fling with this hot American dude. I literally thought, this is a great story to tell. Now, on the other side, he had just come out of a relationship where the girl got a little clingy. So he's thinking, great. She has to legally leave the country because she's only here on a visa.

I'm going to have a hot fling. Exactly. I'm going to have a hot fling.

And the government's going to take care of the rest, even if she's interested. And every day we would hang out. It was, what are you doing tomorrow? Nothing. Let's hang out. There was zero pressure, zero expectation, and we just had the best time. And of course, that person turns out to be my husband, Tom.

At what point did your frame of reference completely shatter, and you had that moment where you go, This is my person?

I think it becomes a drip by drip. There was the conversation. Then there was He wrote poetry. And I was like, I'm thinking of this as being... He's like a stoic alpha male. I mean, you know Tom, he creates, he has presence. And here, he's writing poetry, and he's reading it to me. And he had a dark room for those people who have no idea what a dark room is. It's back in the day when you used to process film, you actually had to process it in a red light in a dark room and put it in liquid. He had his own dark room. And so he was just fascinating. Our dates were we would go to the mountains and take photos on film, and then we'd go back and develop them. It was just my frame of reference. It was bit by bit. It was showing what was possible. It was seeing what was possible. It was then seeing what was possible, was questioning my belief system around what I thought and why did I think it. And bit by bit, each thing started to chip away, and I started to compare my belief system with how I actually felt.

What's so great about the detail in this story is that you're sharing this very powerful tool, Frame of Reference. And the first way that you introduced it is a way that you can use it to truly understand and be separate from another person emotions, opinions, emotions, expectations, and the example was your dad. So understanding, in hindsight, that his frame of reference is growing up on a mountain, the toilet's a hole in the floor, only four boys from the village get to go to school. Every girl in the village, because there's no contraception, is going to get married. That's my frame of reference. And because you can understand that, it allows you to be separate from it, hold space for it, and actually still be able to say for yourself, that's not going to be my frame of reference.

And one more thing to add to that is 100 %, and it's not personal.

And so I love that you have first shown us how you use a frame of reference to truly understand where someone's coming from and to unhook emotionally. But now you're explaining a second way to use it, which is when you meet somebody like Tom, and he is completely different than anybody that is in your frame of reference and your belief system, you're explaining how when you really have the courage to examine what is my frame of reference What do I believe about family? What do I believe the rules are that make you a good person? What do I believe about purpose and meaning and what it means to be a good daughter or this or that? When you can see your own, you can now have the power to start to challenge it based on the people that you meet or ideas that you bump into or things that you study in school. And that's so powerful.

Thank you. I love the way you brought it together. It didn't really dawn on me as I was talking that it's the two. It's the frame of reference for somebody else, but then it's also your own frame of reference.

Yes. And we are so quick to defend our frame of reference as the right way to look at something. Something, and the only way to look at something, and that if you don't fit in this, you're out, or if you don't understand me, you're out. And so I think it's a very powerful self-awareness tool that you're explaining for both understanding and being able to live in that messy, sticky middle part where your emotions aren't the same as others, the way you think about things aren't the same as others, and to also challenge yourself. So I have to ask, what the hell happened? Like, the eight weeks come up? Do you have to go back to the UK? Do you tell your father? Are you getting married? Like, what is going on?

So eight weeks comes, and we literally for four weeks, we're like, It's fun. It's a fling. It's fun. It's a fling. And we're just seeing each other all the time. So it was like the last week and we go to Dockwiler Beach and we're making smores with his friends. And so we're sitting there making smores and his friend turns around and is like, so Lisa's leaving. What are you guys going to do? And he He didn't say a word. He just turned to me and he's like, I'm going to come see you in London. Is it okay if I come in two weeks? And I was like, Yeah. He didn't even have a passport. So in two weeks, he booked a flight, got an emergency passport, didn't even have a suitcase. He took his mom's I have a pink suitcase. I literally can still see him walking down the thing with his pink suitcase. I was like, Who is this guy? I love him so much. But he jumps on a plane and he just comes. Now, I've never introduced a guy to my dad, ever.

Never introduced any?

Never. No.

And now you're going to introduce him to Tom Bilyeu, who's got a pink suitcase that has flown in from the United States? Yes, exactly. Are you out of your mind?

I was out of my mind.

What did you feel?

So when my parents are divorced, so I used to live with my mom, so he was going to stay with my mom. So I contemplated, we're going to hide him. Do I hide him for two weeks? And I was like, I can't. Two weeks? That's a long time. My dad's a Greek man who takes care of his daughter. Very protective. If I don't call him for two days, he's like calling the ambulance. He's calling the police. Like, he's that guy. So I was I can't hide him for two weeks. I just have to take him to see my dad. So I was like, Well, I've never introduced him. So I tell my dad, Hey, I'm meeting somebody. He's coming to stay. Don't worry, he's staying with my mom. I want you to meet him. And my dad's Greek Orthodox. So the first thing he's like, Is he Greek? And I'm like, No, he's like a white boy from Tacoma, Washington. And my dad's like, Okay. So I bring him in and I'm preparing Tom, right? I'm like, Babe, my dad asks a lot of questions. He's very protective. So he's going to bombard you with a thousand questions, and you walk in.

I I just want to warn you. That's who he is. Nothing against you. Don't worry.

This moment, I'm feeling nervous for you because you don't have this frame of reference thing. And you're taking me... We all have this moment where we're about to introduce somebody that we've fallen for to our family. And I cannot wait to hear what happens next. And I'm particularly curious to hear what your father's reaction was. And so I got to take a quick break to hear a word from our sponsors. They're bringing this to you at zero cost. So please take a listen. But don't go anywhere, because Lisa and I are going to be waiting for you after a short break. And check this out. I have a story that Lisa is reminding me of, of When I first met Chris, it is really personal. I have never shared this on the podcast before, and I'm going to tell that, and you're going to hear what happened with Lisa and Tom and her dad. And we're going to dig more into this tool, Frame of Reference. Stay with us. Welcome back. It's your friend, Mel. I'm so thrilled you're still here. I am with my dear friend Lisa Bilyeu, and she is the co founder of Quest Nutrition, which sold for over a billion dollars.

She is also the co founder and the President of Impact Theory studios, and she's here today talking about how you can become unapologetically you. And there's this interesting angle we've been discussing, which is how do you do that without cutting everybody out of your life? How do you do that when you actually do care about what your friends and your family think? We were just talking about both how she met her husband, Tom Bilyeu, and we're at the part of the story where she is having him come to London. He's about to meet her dad.

So Lisa, What happened next? So I told Tom, he's going to ask you a thousand questions. Remember, he's just a Greek dad that cares about his daughter. So when he asks you questions, he just wants to know that you're good for me. So please, if you just come from like, he's a father that cares, not that he hates you. So set him up there. Then my dad, I said to him, I've never introduced you to a guy before, dad. I'm 21 years old. I really like this guy. It would be great if you could welcome him. It would mean a lot to me.

What was your dad's response?

Okay. But here's the funny thing. Now, my dad didn't think it was going to last. So he was like, Yeah, I just thought, Why rock the boat? I may as well say, Okay. Tom meets my dad. He asks him to barely even one question.

Wait, your dad barely asked Tom any questions? Yes.

So remember, I've set him up, and now I'm like, Oh, dear Lord. And it was because my dad was like, I showed him respect. I fed him. I greeted him. We were very polite. I want to make sure. My dad's very polite. He just was like, How's the weather? What's America like? It wasn't like, What do you do for a living? What's your goals? So it was very not like my dad. So even though he was welcoming. And again, in hindsight, he just didn't think we were last. So he was like, Well, you greet him. You show politeness. You always show respect.

What did you do? Because you know that this is not going. I was unsure. I was like, Yeah.

Well, the funny thing is, I didn't know it was a sign of what he was actually thinking. Because when someone acts out of accordance to what you expect now, as having done all the mental work, the first thing I would say to myself is, If I was writing a script, what would have to be true for my dad, who always asks a thousand questions, not to ask Tom any?

That he doesn't like him.

And the answer would be, he doesn't like him, or he has resentment towards him, or he has a threat. My dad is the center of my attention. And so if my dad doesn't approve of him, and now my attention is going elsewhere, could that be why? I didn't know. But those are like, you come up with conclusions. But again, it's not about me.

Here's what I just want to hover on for a minute, because Because this is life. The ability to navigate these moments where somebody's behavior or their emotions do not in line with what you wish. This is reminding me of a story I don't think I've ever told, which is when Chris and I got engaged, and Chris lives in the East, and I grew up in the Midwest. And like most families and parents, now that I'm at the age I am, I understand my mother's frame of reference now. But back then, I didn't. And there was this thing that happened between us that really pissed me off and hurt me. And it was this: as Chris and I got engaged and as the wedding approached, my mom became more and more bristly towards him and snarky about his family. And it bothered me. And I did not have this tool that we're talking about in terms of being able to take a step back and not get all triggered and emotional, but go, Well, what is her frame of reference here? What might be true for her to be in her mind and her frame of reference to have her, someone I love, and someone who I know loves me, act like this?

And And not having that tool, I, of course, just was spawn around like a tut. Why is she doing this? And then you get angry, and then you literally start interacting with each other through emotion instead of being able to unhook yourself and slow yourself down. And so here's what happened. I was talking to a friend, and she said, Well, I think you just need to talk to your mom. And maybe what you could say is it really hurts you that you're chilly and like, bristly toward his family, and you're a very warm person, and you're acting in a way that's very cold and judgy. And I need you to act consistently with this. I need you to pretend you picked him for me. I need you to show up in a way that is consistent with you being happy because you picked him for me. And do you want to know what she said? She said, I didn't pick him for you, and I'm not happy. And I was so pissed. And then here's So what I started to piece together. And this is the interesting thing, even the request made her warmth come back online and made her change.

However, I can now use your tool, Frame of Reference, and I can absolutely see what was going on, because she grew up in a huge farm family in upstate New York. And my dad grew up in New Jersey, in a working-class family that had a bakery. The second that they got married, right out of college in Kansas, and ended up in Michigan, they never saw their family, ever, ever. Because my mom's family was too busy Who's running a farm, so who's going to take care of 100 head of cattle? My dad's family is running a bakery. Nobody was flying around or traveling like they do today. Her frame of reference is, once you move away, you never see your family. And so I can now use that tool and go back in time and say, Of course, she didn't pick a guy that was on the East Coast for her daughter because she wanted somebody that was going to have her end up in the Midwest. And I totally get it now. And so you can using this, whether you're using it today for a difficult conversation, to really try to hold space for what somebody else's reaction might be, and also what you need to say, or you're moving forward in your life, examining your own frame of reference, or helping you understand others, or I think this is an incredibly powerful tool to go backwards.

A thousand %. And what's interesting with everything that you just broke down is, your mom probably wasn't even aware of her own frame of reference or why she was behaving like that. Because if you don't do the work, you know this. If you don't have a growth mindset, if you don't actually look to try to understand yourself, you will be reactive. And when someone is reactive, sometimes they don't actually have clarity on why they're reacting. And so as you do this process, please bear in mind that that person may not actually know their frame of reference.

I think you should assume they don't.

Yeah, actually, that's probably best.

Don't tell them.

No, no, no. What you think their frame of reference is. Yes, do not know, because then the response will be, Oh, you know me better than I know myself. It's like you're doing this for your own work so that you know how to show up, how to communicate, and actually work towards your goals without someone hindering it. That's the goal, right? It's like, if you have a dream, what life do you want? How are you going to get that life? What's getting in your way? And these are all tools that you can use so that you can keep moving forward towards that dream without holding back when someone comes to you, whether it's a mom that you care about and is upset about a decision that you made.

I love this so much, Lisa. This is so powerful because it is at the heart of every interaction and every relationship. And one thing I also want to say about this is it takes time. Do not just start regurgitating imitating, frame of reference, frame of reference, and assume that you're suddenly healed. No. This is something that takes time. Understanding yourself, knowing yourself in your own frame of reference takes time. Especially when you want to navigate in this space that we all need to learn how to navigate, which is where you are in relation to other people. And so what happens? He meets your dad.

So he meets my dad, and he's very quiet, doesn't ask a lot of questions. Tom and I just get on so well. There's just something connection between us that we cannot describe. We just keep leaning into it. And this was before cell phones. So we would email each other. He'd come back to America. We try to find ways to be together. I would come to America for three months. Tom would get me a job on a movie set. I would work for three months. It's like a PA, and then I'd go back to England. Then Tom would come and visit. So we did that on and off for about a year. And then Tom proposes. But here's the thing. Being a very traditional Greek family that I have, I've always said to him it was very important that he gets my dad's blessing if it ever happened. So of course, Tom goes to my dad and sits down and says, Andres, I love your daughter. I want to marry her. And my dad says, No. You're so gobsmacked. I can't believe you don't know this story. Yeah, my dad actually said no. And what did Tom do?

So first of all, what happened was he asked him, and my dad then had the thousand questions. Oh, now we're in. That's when the thousand questions came up. What is your plan? How are you going to provide? If you don't have a job right now that's paying a lot, you live in an apartment, what about kids? If you have kids, what job are you going to have so you can pay for the kids? It was all very traditional questions. And then afterwards, then my dad said, No.

No? Based on Tom's answers?

Yeah. He basically was like, I still don't want you to marry my daughter.

And so Tom- Was the fact that Tom wasn't Greek also a big issue?

Oh, that was one of the biggest. That was actually the biggest. It was more the religion first, then it was the career path of how you're going to take care of me and the children that we're apparently going to have. So see, he didn't even ask me if I was going to have children. He just assumed, and that's why he asked Tom that. So Tom Like the man I loved it, he's like, Andres, I respect you. Thank you for taking the time to speak to me. I'm still going to propose to her. I understand I don't have your blessing, but I promise you, the man that you see today will not be the man that ends up being with your daughter. And I promise I will provide for her. So that's what Tom said to him.

Wow.

And so Tom, when he proposed, he told me very honestly, your dad said no, but he still knows that. So my dad, even after that, though, was very respectful. He paid for the wedding. He came to the wedding. He was very gracious. He was just, as I was talking to him, I'm going to go to America. So remember all the things that we've set up? I'm daddy's girl. I really want to please him. Yeah, frame of reference. I'm now saying yes to someone that my dad doesn't want me to marry. My dad was just very adamant. He kept saying, Maybe you should wait. What's the rush? Don't put a down payment on the reception yet. He was very... He was respectful, but very try to push it off. And that's where it's the collision. How many people have made decisions in their life based on their parents and what they want or other people? And what's happened is one of my favorite movies of all time is a movie called Closing doors or Sliding doors with Gwyneth Paltrow. That metaphor, I think about all the time. For people that may not know, Gwyneth Paltrow is running for the train.

In one scene, she makes the train. They show her life. They cut And then they do it again. She's running for the train, and she doesn't make the train. And they cut, and then her life. The difference of just making that train. That's really how I think about decisions. One decision can take you on a completely different path. So what are the decisions that you make. I love him so much, I will marry him. But how do I navigate that with my dad who doesn't want me to marry him, who doesn't want me to go? So I stepped back and I said, Okay, I can't have my dad dictate.

But that was a thought, a fleeting thought. Of course, and for a lot of people, they do. Yeah.

I'm just honest. I try not to hide around anything. And the truth is, hopefully, if nature takes its course, my dad dies before me. So now think about when I'm 50, if my dad's not around. I've now said no to the person that I love, and it may not have worked out, but what if it did? And I made a decision for somebody else that I have to live with for the rest of my life. So that was how I processed. I can't do what my dad wants. I have to do what I want. Now, how do you navigate the conversation? Because I don't want my dad out of my life. Going back to, I actually care. So I said, okay, what do we know about humans? Everyone wants to be seen and heard, period. My dad, if I shut him down and I'm like, I'm going to do... We said it earlier. I'm going to do me. Don't who you think you are to tell me what to do. You go, girl. All of that. It isn't reality. Because the reality is I did care and I wanted to show my dad respect. So I said, Okay, going into this conversation, you're not going to back down, Lisa.

You are going to marry the man of your dreams. It may not work out. You have to embrace that everything you fight for may not work out, but it may. But either way, I have to know I'm making this decision for myself. Otherwise, I won't forgive myself because I won't know if it works out or not.

And here's the thing. What I love is that you are willing to make the decision with the mindset, what if it does? What if it does work out? And in that moment that you isolated, where your dad has said no, you are making the decision that you are going to go ahead and marry Tom, I think at some point in every person's life, there is that collision between somebody else's expectations and hopes and dreams and wants and desires and yours, whether it's a job or moving somewhere or choosing to live openly in terms of who you are and who you love. And in that moment, literally putting the bet on, well, what if it does work out? What if this collision is momentary? And I'm willing to acknowledge that this person's frame of reference is not the same as mine. And I'm just going to step one step further onto that train, knowing it's taking me in a direction I feel called to go. But what if it works out? That's a beautiful way to ensure way forward in your life.

Agreed. And I think the poison of our brains is when we ask ourselves, what if it doesn't? And now I've gone against the family. I've gone against the beliefs. I made a big deal. So let's say you're studying something and you've gone to college and you tell everybody, even if they don't agree with you, you're going to go do this thing. And you spend $100,000 and four years of your life, and you go to the job and you freaking hate it. And now you stay in the job because you're so embarrassed to tell everybody you actually hate it, right? You can never predict what's going to happen. And And so I have the ability, and the ability because I've just promised myself that even if it doesn't work out, I'm going to be freaking proud that I gave it a chance in the first place. And if I make that decision now, when I get there, if it fails, I just go, Oh, I knew that it could fail. I just gave myself permission to get started in the first place. So even with my marriage, I had to say to my dad, even if in my marriage, it doesn't work out, I have to give it a shot, and I won't feel bad and go back.

I'm not going to be that person. It's going to go lick my wounds back to my dad being like, Dad, you were right. It's like, No, I I gave it a shot, and I'm proud that I did. Yes. Now, the thing with how you communicate that is that next step in this whole humongous...

Oh, I just got something really big. Okay. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. So in the scenario, area where you make a decision, and it turns out that it doesn't work out. And you come back with your tail between your legs, and you're at that moment with your dad, dad, or anybody in your life who's like, I told you so. See, I was right. Here's what I just got. In the moment of the collision, and we're just going to use your story as the model for this, And your dad is saying, No, this is not the right person for you. What he's actually saying is, He's not the right person in my story about what happens in your life. But that Your decision is the moment where you get to decide who is the right person for your story about your life. And it doesn't matter, honestly, if the relationship goes the distance or not, because obviously, if you are making the right decision for your story in that moment, they are meant to be a part of your story.

I And a thousand % agree. And I think what we instinctually do is if it fails, we then beat ourselves up.

And we think somebody else is right.

And we think the other person is right.

And it doesn't make them right.

Exactly. And what you have to do in order to prevent that, because I know that. I try not to like, okay, I know this about me. Like, know thyself, know exactly what makes you tick, know exactly what doesn't make you tick. I know myself. I knew that, oh, my God, if it fails, I'm going to feel really bad. And oh, my God, now everyone's going to think I'm a loser. And that story you're telling yourself. So in that moment, how do I make sure that even if it doesn't work out, I don't actually have that knock-on effect because I know it's going to be detrimental to my self-esteem and how I feel about myself. So I put in actions now in order for the future me to thank me and feel good about the decisions I've made. So that's why I say, I did the process. Okay, my dad's going to die before me. Okay, that's actually true, that I don't know if my relationship is going to work out or not. But either way, my dad may not be around, or eventually, he won't be around to even know if it works or not.

So I have to make a decision for me, not for him. So I was very concrete on the decision I was making.

Hey, it's Mel. Thank you so much for being here. If you enjoyed that video, by God, please subscribe because I don't want you to miss a thing. Thank you so much for being here. We've got so much amazing stuff coming. Thank you so much for sending this stuff to your friends and your family. I love you. We create these videos for you, so make sure you subscribe.