I want to start with the difference between hunger and having an appetite and cravings. So we're all on the same page.

Great question. The simplest way to think about it is when you're sitting at dinner and you had this amazing dinner, appetizer, drinks, you know, entree, and you are full. You're ready. You're ready to go. And the waiter comes out and says, actually, you know what? We have these special desserts that we just made tonight, and they are out of this world. And everyone looks at each other and they're like, well, we're full, but we really want that dessert. That's cravings. That's not hunger. You're no longer hungry.

You're actually pretty full.

Extra full. Right? But you're working on that cravings pathway, and that cravings pathway is super strong. It's the same cravings pathway that alcohol uses, drugs, sugar. So desserts. So cravings is a dopamine pathway, whereas hunger is your natural need to get nutrients. Hunger, actually, you can go for many days, even a month without food.

A month?

Yes. People fast for a month. From my background, my family is Jane, and they fast for long periods of time, and there is a fasting month where you actually eat nothing and just drink water. So our hunger signals are reminders to eat because your body does not want you to go a full month without remembering to eat. So, ghrelin, you might have heard of this hunger hormone. It's released to remind us to eat. So the same time every day you get hungry, you get reminded to eat, and your ghrelinde comes and goes. So some people just aren't hungry. You know, at. In the morning, some people get very hungry at night, no matter what. They've eaten all day because of that ghrelin cycling. So if you understand that it's a cycle, it's a reminder. You don't always have to take that reminder, but it's a reminder. So if you need food, you should get it.

So what is appetite?

Appetite is the overall interest in food. Have you ever seen a dog when they're sick, they're just, like, not interested. Their appetite is dampened. It will dampen your cravings and your hunger pathways, huh?

To let you heal. So hunger is like this need to eat, right? That is tied to the biological imperative to stay alive. Appetite is the desire for food. And we've all had those periods in our life where we've felt sick. I mean, my allergies are crazy right now, and I'm not that hungry. Yes, normally, I would be ravenous right now. So my appetite is the correct word. I don't have much of an appetite. And then cravings. This is one of the reasons why I love your book. I'm so effing hungry so much because I've learned so much that I didn't know that you talk so much about our cravings and the eating patterns that we have that aren't healthy for us, based on the brain, not based on emotion, not based on what's going on with what you just ate, but that actually, there is a whole hormone cycle to this thing.

Oh, it's so complicated. So there was a french philosopher in 1825, Jean Claude Savarin, and he said, show me what you eat, and I'll show you who you are. And even today, that stands true. Right? Show me what you eat, and I'll tell you who you are. Because our lives are dictated through food. We have now food addictions. And some of it is not our fault. A lot of it is not our fault.

Yeah, you actually say that in this book that you say that, you know, you get into these sort of habits of eating unhealthy things, the pulling up at the drive thru and ordering the extra large fries and the burger on the way home from work, and then you feel like crap, and then you have a craving, and then you eat something else and that it's not your fault. How is it not your fault if you're the one putting the food in your mouth?

Think about it. Have you ever been to Miami? I always talk about a Miami phenomenon. Okay. When you go to Miami. And the first time I went, I was in med school, and I saw all the flashing lights and the people and the music and the craziness, and I was like, oh, my God. My dopamine receptors were firing.

Yep.

That's what happens the first time you eat a sugary food, like an ice cream or a McDonald's burger, you get a huge burst of dopamine. And then on day three of being in Miami, all of a sudden it doesn't seem loud, it doesn't seem as entertaining. You need to turn the volume up. You need to go to the club now, because you're kind of used to it. You don't even feel excited or happy just from being out in the street. You actually need to turn up the volume. And so that's what's happening to us. We're having this Miami south beach effect in our brains when we're eating all of this sweet food, these processed foods that they don't occur in nature, that dopamine explosion happening day after day after day, it lowers your. You know, you're not even as happy anymore. And so the problem is you need more and more and more to get that same dopamine release. And guess what happens, Mel, on the other end.

I don't know.

Dopamine has this weird after effect where it makes you irritable, it makes you uncomfortable, and it makes you crave that food so badly that you just want to, like, almost make yourself not feel the pain anymore. And so dopamine has this effect on us that we'll eat it, we'll get the pleasure, but then there's like, that pain aspect to it because you want it again.

There was something that you just said that really caught my attention. I've never heard anybody say this before. It's that you get the dopamine rush from eating things that are nothing available in nature.

Yeah.

Can you explain that?

When you eat an apple, yes, you get the sugar, but you get water, electrolytes, you know, antioxidants, and fiber. Most importantly, that is how sugar is made in nature. So you see a fruit tree. Your dopamine pathway, we think, was made to help us survive and want to find that tree with the right fruit to keep us going, to keep us agitated enough to, like, try to look for more food, just to keep us surviving. Okay, now take it, you know, thousands of years later, we have ultra processed foods, which I will define for you later, that don't have any fiber, that don't have any vitamins to tell the body that you've eaten something. And they pack the sugar in such a small amount of food that the explosion of dopamine you get is similar.

To a drug like cocaine or being in South beach.

Yeah.

Yes. It's like boom, boom. And then you have a drop, and then you crave the candy bar or the whatever it was that you just had that was ultra processed. So what does ultra processed mean?

Ultra process is really simple. If you could not make it in your kitchen or any kitchen, because the ingredients are not ingredients of food, then it's ultra processed. Ultra processed means you cannot recreate that food in your kitchen, even if you had access to any ingredient in the world.

Wow.

So that's a lot of things, you know, doritos, kit kats, sundaes. If you think about it, we have often the option of getting the minimally processed or non processed version, but it's often easier. It's easier to. The shelf life is easier when they're in packaged foods, but the ingredients in there, we don't even know exactly what each one of them does. We just know that when you consume them at the highest quantity, you have 80% more mental health days than someone who's consuming the lowest quantities.

Okay? So I wanna make sure that everybody just heard that. So one of the reasons why this is so important, we're gonna keep digging into the connection between your cravings and your appetite and your hunger, and how this is attached to dopamine. Yeah, the rush of dopamine, the drop of dopamine, the craving cycle that you're now trapped in. But you just said that if you eat more whole naturally occurring foods, that you will be 80% better when it comes to the number of days that you are feeling good mentally. Is that true?

Yes.

Why?

We are starting to understand that ultra processed foods not only make us more inflamed, which we can talk about, why inflammation is bad, but it ages you, gives you cancer, diabetes, heart disease. That's the root of all of it. It makes you sad, anxious, and it lowers your length of life. So if you look at all cause mortality, ultra processed foods will shorten your life. And yet, Mel, we live in a world where kids are eating. Over 70% of their diet is ultra processed.

Wow. I think I gotta back up a minute. And just cause there's so much to learn. This book has so much research in it, and it also has so many what you call hunger hacks, which I love. And I wanna start with some basic questions. You said this thing earlier, and I didn't want to interrupt you. I'm almost, like, embarrassed to ask this question. How do you know when you're full?

It's such a good question. We've forgotten, right, what it feels like to be hungry or be full. We're almost always just relying on external cues to tell us that. So there's various ways to feel full. So we have a couple of hormones that make us feel full. Leptin is one of them, CCK is another one. And there's various signals that they give our brain mostly just to stop eating. And so if you feel full, you won't want to eat food. However, the cravings pathway kicks in. So you may want to eat desserts, but you won't want to eat real food. So a quick way to test this is, would you eat a bowl of vegetables right now?

Right now? No.

Then you're not hungry.

Oh. So, can you explain to us what is going on in our bodies as it relates to feeling hungry?

We now know, Mel, that our brain is not just in charge of our cravings and our mood and the way we show up in the world, we always think, oh, if you feel sad, you should just think, you know, do therapy or start to think good thoughts.

Right.

But we now know that there's this connection between the brain and the gut. And when you eat food, there's an impact in your gut that's sent directly to your brain, and your brain then sends signals back down to your gut. And the way you show up in the world is a result of this communication.

And what is the chicken or the egg in the brain gut? Like, who goes first? Who's talking the loudest?

When we are formed, when we're an embryo, they're connected. They're one, and then they stretch out and they move apart to the different ends of the body. So you could say that they kind of happen from one ball of cells.

Yep.

And we can definitely say now with quite con. We can definitely say with confidence that changing our gut environment has a bigger impact on our brain than we ever thought. A bigger impact, so big that you can transplant the gut from one person to another and completely change their mental health.

Oh, I read about that study.

Yeah.

Where they did. They switched guts in. Was it mice?

Yes.

Where mice that were schizophrenic?

Yes.

Well, you should say the study, because I'm not the medical doctor.

You are a doctor. We now know that the gut microbiome has so many signaling pathways to the brain, and sometimes the bacteria are louder, actually, than the brain. Which is your question, like, which one's louder? The gut bacteria want to send a signal to the brain. They produce large amounts of dopamine and large amounts of serotonin to send a signal. So what they found is if you took animals and you gave them the microbiome from a schizophrenic human person who was diagnosed, and then a microbiome from someone who was not diagnosed with schizophrenia. Put that in mice into their gut, and you mix them up. The researchers were able to tell which mice got which gut bacteria just based on the behavior of the mice.

Based on the microbiome bacteria that they fed them.

Exactly.

So I want to get a visual here.

Yeah.

Because I can't stop thinking about the fact that everybody's obsessed with chat Gbt right now and AI and how you just insert this thing and it spits out that thing. This whole cover letter, this whole resume, this whole. This. Wow. It's so unbelievable. I'm thinking in my mind what I'm visualizing is, I'll take what I ate for lunch. So I had a salad, I had a handful of walnuts, I had a couple scoops of a chocolate mousse keto thing, I had a coconut macaroon, I had a keto chocolate peanut butter little cup thing. And I'm thinking that all of that represents input into, like, the chat GDT. And then something else gets spit out. And what gets spit out from that is a message to my brain.

Am I tracking right, exactly what's happening? In fact, it's two ways. So you have to remember that our body's really smart, so they usually use two different pathways for each thing. So when you eat sugar, for example, it stimulates your brain straight from your mouth, and then you have these other receptors, these neuropods in the gut, that sense the sugar also, and they are making their own assessment and sending it to the gut. So the gut's like, oh, yeah, it's sugar, because I knew it was coming because I felt it from the mouth. And now you guys are telling me the same thing, so everything matches and you get the response. So they work together.

Wow.

In understanding what's happening in your body.

Wow. It's amazing how sophisticated our bodies are.

Amazing.

Like, as I'm mindlessly chucking walnuts into my mouth, I'm not thinking about the fact that there are these neurotransmitters, there are these hormones, there's all this signaling going on. And so you, in your book, Doctor Amy, you write that if you're in a cycle of emotional eating, or if you're in a cycle where you have all of these cravings and you're always hungry and you're eating the wrong things, that it's not your fault. It's not your fault, and it's not your fault because your brain and your hormones are getting triggered by all this ultra processed food. Yes. And the ultra processed food, it sounds like, is food that also keeps you craving it.

Yes.

Because it's not occurring in the natural world. And so your brain is like, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. Holy smokes. This Snickers bar is incredible. Oh, my gosh. You know, this baked whatever it is that I pulled out of a box and ripped out of a package stuck in to the air fryer, this is tantalizing because it's got all these chemicals in it.

Yeah, it's the Miami beach phenomenon, right? You get to South beach and you're like, whoa, I want. Like, your brain is like, I feel good right now, and I want that again. And then it's, I want more of that again.

Right.

And the problem with our world is we're not educated about that. I, as a physician, I said to myself, how many times was I rewarding myself with Starbucks and peppermint mochas? And I would say to myself, oh, I did a good job today, so I'm going to get this sweet thing. And then it was every day, and then it was twice a day. And by the end of it, I had to recognize myself that this was happening to me. We need to talk about it more, because if we can make ourselves happier, less irritable, less chasing things, we're going to be happier people, we're going to live longer. And so for me, this was like, okay, all these companies know about it, and they're creating foods to trigger that pathway. Why don't we know about it so we actually can be in control?

Well, you know, when we hear food, you think calories?

Yeah.

You think, like, how many grams of fat? How many grams of sugar? I don't. I've never talked to anybody about the fact that there is this dopamine, serotonin, all of these hormones are impacted by it, and it's also being driven by this kind of craving cycle in your brain. And so what do we do? If we're not responsible for this situation, how the hell do we fix it? Like, where do we all begin?

Yeah. You know, the thing is, first understand that food creates mood.

Food creates mood.

So we're always trying to find out ways to make ourselves happier, think more clearly, be more satisfied. Right? And so that's why I got so interested in this work, because with my background in nutrition and being a doctor, I thought, well, if we can control our mood through food and the actions that we take on a daily basis, why aren't we talking about this? Why isn't this first line therapy? There's really good research, a new study from South Australia, that the combination of diet and exercise was 1.5 times more effective for depression than the leading medications.

Now explain why. Because that's a big research result that just through food and exercise. Yeah. Was found to be one and a half times more effective than medication alone.

And if you think about it, they actually even put therapy and medications, kind of the traditional treatment, into one category.

Okay.

And they compared that with changing your diet, with changing your sleep, your exercise lifestyle habits.

Okay.

And they said, we should be prescribing this as first line therapy for depression. There's an anxiety, multiple anxiety studies, adhd. I mean, we are missing the boat. Obviously, we're not doing something right because depression is skyrocketing. So is anxiety, so is obesity, so is diabetes, so is cardiovascular disease. So the status quo is not working. So why not employ these techniques and put them at the forefront? So things like we talked about already and that are in the book are teaching you that we have control, that, yes, do all the things, but also change the way you eat, change the way you exercise, get more sunlight.

Well, you might be depressed and anxious and struggling with a lot of stuff because of what you're eating.

Yes.

And because of your lifestyle right now. And so I think it's really great news to hear that you can feel better if you start to eat better and that this whole cycle that you are trapped in in terms of the cravings that never end and the cycle of emotional eating and feeling lethargic and feeling anxious, that you can, based on the research and based on the work that you do with patients around the world, that when you take your food intake seriously, you can profoundly change your mood, you can change your body, you can change your lifestyle, all of it. But it begins with the foods. Well, let's talk about urges, because you have so many tools, it is unbelievable. In fact, we're going to link to this, but you've got twelve different tools or steps to coaching the people that you work with to control their urges. Can you walk us through that?

Yeah. So I want to start with the word control because I think a lot of times people come to this work and they think, oh, yeah, controlling my urges would be, I can make them go away.

Oh, you can't?

Well, unless you can get rid of your lower brain, we're not gonna be able to make the urge go away. But notice how you're a little disappointed when I said that to you?

Yes, very.

Why are you disappointed?

Cause it would be nice if I didn't, like, have any urge, because then there would be no conflict. Because I wouldn't be thinking, I don't know. Well, like, for example, I don't ever have an. I used to eat big Macs. Okay? No offense to McDonald's, but I used to. I used to love a Big Mac and an extra large fries. I would have the urge for it all the time. I haven't had the urge to eat a big Mac in probably two decades, and I'm good with that.

Mm hmm.

I don't know if I actually would want to not have an urge for alcohol, because right now I realize that that urge signals that it's time to turn off my brain. It's time to do something fun. And so what you're basically saying, if I am. If I'm now reading between the lines, is that I think the urge is for alcohol. You're saying, go a layer deeper.

Yeah. Saying, what if it has. What if it has useful information for you?

Wow. So that's true.

Controlling, to me is my ability to manage and influence what's going to happen next. It's not. I got to delete every urge and make sure that they never appear, and they must go away because they're bad and they're annoying, and I can't say no to them. It's like, well, I can have the urge. That urge can come up. Then what? And that's where I think the messages that we get certainly just say no doesn't do a lot of good, because then all of a sudden, I'm at war with the urge. All of a sudden, it's become a battle. And as soon as I think I'm at war with something, now it's got power.

So true. It's so true.

Yeah. As opposed to, like, okay, like, of course the urge is here. Or even just. I mean, one of my first things, really, is just naming that you're having an urge. And when I introduced that to people, it's always like, what is this woman talking about? Like, you just want me to say, oh, I'm having an urge. And I think it's incredibly powerful and beneficial, because all of a sudden, we're activating our higher brain. All of a sudden, we're not just on autopilot, we're narrating what's going on? Oh, this is an urge. Of course I'm having an urge. It's 05:00. My brain learned, this is what we do. We get a reward at 05:00. Of course it's here, because so often what happens with people is that the urge shows up. And when you want to change, right? If you're trying to say no, if you want to drink less, all sounds like, oh, God, the urge is here. And now my anxiety has just kicked on, too, because I wish it wasn't there, and I wish it would go away. And I think that it's a sign that something is wrong with me or my brain is broken or whatever.

And so, like, can we just name it? Can we normalize it? Like, yeah, of course you're here. Of course. When I watch baseball, I'm having the urge for a beer, because at some point, my brain learned, this is what you do. When you watch baseball, what's so great.

About this is that whether you use the process that you've created and it leads you to becoming sober and living a sober life, it's still empowering you to understand the psychological drivers so you understand and know yourself better, and that supports the work you're going to do if you are sober or if you go through all of this. And where it leads you is to just a totally different relationship with alcohol that works for you. You still have to do the deeper work to understand what are the urges and psychological data that is driving you to try to answer the urge with a drink. That's really amazing.

Well, I think everything I'm teaching, yes, it's through the lens of alcohol and drinking and wanting to change that relationship. But to me, this is just a skill that we need across the board, because we don't just have urges when it comes to a drink. We have urges around food. We have urges around spending money. We have urges to procrastinate. Like, we're always going to have competing desires, right? We always have this part of us that has the dream and the goal, and this is what I want to do, and this is how I want to spend my time. And we have the part of us that's like scrolling through TikTok, right, and looking for that easy way to distract ourselves or feel better or stay in our comfort zone. And so that's always going on. I personally think that learning this work around my urges to drink is what kind of took my life to the next level, because it was like, oh, okay, now I can apply the skill to anything that I'm doing. It's not unique to just saying no to a drink. It's not unique to alcohol. It's something that I can apply across the board.

It's an essential life skill.

Yes. And we don't teach people like, this is what's so frustrating for me is we're constantly giving people messages. Just say no, drink responsibly, enjoy in moderation, know when to say when. We're getting all these messages about what we should be doing, and nobody gives us the how. Nobody explains how we're supposed to do it. And so I think what happens is people start to internalize. This should just be something I can naturally do. I should instinctually know how to say no, be responsible. Right? Know when to say when. And if I can't figure it out, oh, something must be wrong with me. As opposed to no. People gave you a bunch of messages with no tools, no techniques, no understanding about the brain. I mean, that just is. That really infuriates me.

I can tell. And I'm glad you got mad because you figured out how to help all of us. So I wanted to know. So we're at this, like, you name the urge and it sounds like what? Once, like, what do you mean by name the urge? So let's just take, for example, the second that we are done, I am going to have. With the second I'm done talking to you, it's going to be dinner time. I'm going to leave my podcast studio, I'm going to look out at a beautiful sunset, and I'm going to have an urge to make a margarita.

Yep.

So when you say name the urge, does it is just saying, did I just do that?

No, I'm like, when it's happening?

Oh, it's happening right now. Because now I'm talking about it. But, okay.

I love the sunset piece. So, because, like, the number of people that I have coached on, like, how am I supposed to sit on my porch anymore and, like, enjoy a sunset? And it's like, sunsets were enjoyable before you started drinking. Right. We just, the brain started to associate. Oh, I get a reward when I watch a sunset. So now when you take the reward away, it feels like something's missing from the sunset. Nothing's missing from the sunset. Right.

Okay. You're right. Except for the drink.

Right? Except for.

I'm making a joke out of this, but it's not. It's not. I'm not. I'm not really this cavalier about it, but I do feel like there's two camps here. It's. It's poison. Nobody should ever drink. Drinking is a problem. I can already feel people who listen to the podcast who are sober, and it is a really powerful choice for them who are sober, and it's extremely powerful for them being upset by this conversation. And so I just want to say something, and that is, this is a much deeper conversation than alcohol. And I want more people to listen to what you're saying than just people who think they have a problem with alcohol. I want every human being to listen to this conversation and feel like this applies to you, because it does. Because you're talking about the subconscious drivers that create your relationship to food, to alcohol, to money, to all of your behaviors, by the way. And alcohol is just one piece of this. And I'm going to keep on making jokes because I think when I make a joke that now I'm thinking about the margarita, which is true. Most people that have alcohol in their life actually operate that way.

When you see the sunset, you're thinking about the drink you're going to have tonight. And so now that, so when I leave here and I have the urge, I just, as I'm walking downstairs, I say, oh, I'm having that urge to make a drink.

Yeah. So you can say it to yourself. You can say it out loud. Both of that works. The idea is really just acknowledging what's going on. Like, oh, this is an urge. I'm having an urge right now. This is desire. Oh, how normal. Of course, it's here, right? This isn't a problem. This is what my brain learned. I mean, I think of the number of times that I would watch mad men and, like, immediately be like, I mean, I'm fixing a cocktail and smoking a cigarette right now, right? But there was no, I was kind of on autopilot, and I just didn't have that full awareness of what was going on as opposed to like, oh, of course, this is desire. Of course, I'm having an urge to fix a cocktail and smoke a cigarette right now because I'm seeing it in front of me and I'm seeing it presented in this very sophisticated, enjoyable way. So it really is just starting to narrate. I think that's a very, very powerful thing to start to be able to narrate what your brain is doing, because all of a sudden you're not at the effect of your brain.

Part of you is watching it. And I will just add on the piece about it's poison and it's terrible. I really caution people about that. I know that there are people who find that very effective. They go down the kind of rabbit hole of all the ways that it's harming you and it's bad for you. And I'm not denying that it can have negative consequences, but what I see happen to people, and I did this with myself as well, you start going down that rabbit hole of all the ways that it's harming you and all the poisonous, toxic effects that it's having on your body, and you're still struggling to say no, or you're still drinking more than you want, and now you're waking up the next day and you're doubly stupid, because now you really should know better. So not only was it like, oh, God, why did I have that fourth glass? But, and I know all the harm that it's doing, and I know how bad it is for me. And so there's already so much shame around drinking, there's already, you know, people are so hard on themselves. It just becomes like another layer of.

See, something really is wrong with me, because now I know how bad it is. I know it's, you know, I know it's poisoning me as opposed to, like, listen, alcohol is just. It's a. It's a fact of being alive on this planet, right? It existed before humans learned how to harness the process of fermentation, right? So it's just part of being alive. So what if instead of fixating on it's so bad, right? The bad things that it's doing, I think that takes you away from this conversation that I think is more powerful. Right? What does it represent? What is my desire really about? Why is it hard for me to say no? How do I feel when I'm the odd man out? What are those emotions that come up for me that is so much more powerful area, I think, to start to get curious about rather than all the bad things that it's doing.

Well, I agree with you. And even when you said the word name that it's a desire, and when I gave that example of it's dinner time, the sun is setting. I'm going to make a cocktail, the truth is, the desire is to stop working. The desire is to exhale and stop thinking for a minute. The desire is to reward myself for a job well done. And in naming that, it also takes my focus off the drink, and it helps me get present to what I actually want.

Mm hmm. One of the things that I do, actually, I don't know if you'll be able to see this, but I have, like, a little picture of me as a four year old looking very grumpy on my phone. It's, like, all around my house. I've got a big one over my office. I've got it on a couple of mirrors. But the reason why I have it is because it's much easier for me to connect to that younger version of myself and say, what does she need to? Because so often, my internal conversation is like, well, you're not supposed to need anything, right? What are you complaining about? Right? You're an adult. But if I think about, like, what is she needing right now, right? When she's tired, when she's having desire, when she's frustrated, like, what does she need in this moment is so much easier for me to answer that question on behalf of her rather than, you know, 42 year old Rachel, who you shouldn't need anything, and, you know, you should be able to push through and you should be able to get more done, and you have nothing to complain about, and you should be grateful for all these things that you have in your life.

It's like, no, she has some needs, and that's okay.

What immediately came to mind is, I need a hug.

Yeah, but isn't that harder to ask for sometimes than a drink?

Well, you can't order one from a waiter. It's true. And I can make myself a drink, so I don't have to ask for anything. Right? Yeah, but I can see that when you showed me that picture of yourself, and I think about myself like, what? That. What if I go to the 14 year old me, that red solo cup represented a hug and being welcomed into the group.

Yeah.

And so I can see what you're saying, that there is a desire to name. When you feel that urge that is deeper than the food or the drink or the pair of jeans you're about to buy, that goes way deeper, and that's what's driving it. And so, of course, you would want the thing. And, of course, not giving yourself the jeans or the ice cream sundae or the mai tai feels like you're punishing yourself.

Yeah.

Wow. So, once you kind of label this desire and you start working through it, what are some of the things that once you've labeled it, you need to do so that the urge or this desiree doesn't continue to drive you, but you start to change your relationship to the desire or the urge that you're having.

Yeah. I think a big thing is just watching it pass. So that's a huge thing that a lot of people struggle with. It's like, listen, if I don't say yes, it's going to be nagging me all night long.

Can I confess something to you?

Of course.

Is it normal for someone to be worried that you're about to tell me not to have a drink tonight?

That I'm about to tell you?

Yes. That you're about to coach me through this process of noticing the urge, letting it rise and fall, and then at the end of this, I'm now going to have more conflict. And then you want to know how. How fucked up I am, then I'm going to feel like this is now all evidence that I have an even bigger problem. That's how much of a shame cycle I'm in around this.

Yeah.

And then I'm going to argue that what the fuck is wrong with one goddamn drink? Why did you book Rachel on this show? See, like, you know. You know, like, I. I'm really torturing myself. Or is this normal? Is this what you see in the people you work with?

Yes, this is very normal. I'm not going to tell you anything to do when it comes. I mean, I think that's actually a huge piece of my approach, is that I don't know what's best for you. I'm not going to tell you what to do because you're just going to be then looking to me or looking for someone outside of you to tell you what's right. I think you have wisdom and information inside of you and that's not like a wink wink, you know, you shouldn't drink. I really do think that we have this ability to know what feels good for us and what feels like too much, but we can't access that if it's constantly in this place of like, oh, God, I shouldn't even be wanting this, or I shouldn't even have this desire.

I love your approach because I can tell you that in my twenties, thirties and early forties, I definitely had a drinking problem. No question. No fucking question. Whether it was the lever I pulled to relieve anxiety or it was escaping the shitshow that my life had become when we were in financial trouble, or it was just a deep, I think, sadness and feeling lost and I disconnected. And how alcohol can make you social and make you fun and make you forget all that stuff and just sort of that constant cycle of drinking and then regretting that I drank and regretting what I said. And as I go deeper and I think about the person that I am now and the fact that, you know, especially having a husband that doesn't drink, if he's not having a drink. Most nights I don't have a drink. And I've wondered, especially given that I have a much healthier and balanced relationship with it, why the hell I am so conflicted? Why am I not proud of myself? That I have gotten this to a point where it's not a problem and it hasn't been a problem for a long time.

And what I'm realizing is that it's so much deeper because it's about these desires and emotional needs that I've paired with alcohol.

Yeah.

And that I, at a fundamental level, make myself wrong for wanting things. And because I can't tolerate the desire riding up and not fulfilling it. Like you reach for something because you know what's interesting? I bet if I were to do something, I bet if I were to just play the urge game, I would notice something. And I bet this is what I would notice. I bet that on the nights that I don't drink, just because I'm not going to have a drink alone and Chris isn't drinking, or I don't feel like having one, I guarantee you I probably buy something I don't need, or I eat a big dessert that I am probably so blind to the desire that comes up in me that I don't even realize I'm just substituting one thing for another.

Yeah, I got so much freedom out of that really understanding that I was so fixated on my drinking for so long and then was like, wait a minute. Maybe it actually has nothing to do with my drinking. Maybe it's the way that I approach trying to fulfill my needs and meet my desires and deal with, you know, negative emotion and give myself permission to have pleasure. And it was showing up in so many areas of my life, right. Like, I didn't think more is better just with, you know, a drink. I thought it was better with food. I thought it was better with stuff. I thought it was better with success. I thought it was better with, you know, money. I thought it was better with praise. Like, that was just kind of the kind of overarching principle of how I was operating. And it wasn't just showing up for me in one place. And that, I think that created a lot of freedom for me because I walked around for a long time being like, I don't know, I've got, like, eight different problems or not. Or maybe I have one thing that I'm working on, which is how to understand, like, identify how I'm feeling and what I need and how to be okay with an unmet desire and how to fulfill it elsewhere.

That is incredible, what you just said, that there is one super max problem underneath it all, and it's your unmet emotional needs and how you are fulfilling them and your ability to tolerate those moments when your unmet emotional needs go unfulfilled like that. You're exactly right.

It's just like, such a relief was for me to be like, oh, it's just one thing. I'm just working on one thing.

How did you figure this out? Like, was there a particular moment? Like, did you have, like, a massive bender? And then you're like, I can't drink again. Then you, like, reverse engineered this. Did you go to school? How did you figure this out?

So, I mean, I spent my twenties going, like, back and forth between, I'm drinking, I'm not drinking, I'm drinking, I'm not drinking. But the not drinking was always. You were bad. You should be ashamed of yourself. Now it's time to punish yourself. We're just going to focus on saying no. And so I would say no and say no and feel like something was wrong with me and I was missing out. And I was very healthy, but wasn't enjoying myself as much. And then eventually, I would give in and go pick up right back where I left off. And so I was in this process, in this cycle for so long. And I think I. I had some awareness that it was bigger than the drink. I don't know how, but I think because I understood that, I felt like I wasn't able to access a part of myself without the drink. I remember believing that the fun Rachel, the real Rachel, she comes out with a drink, and again, there was a part of me that was like, I don't think I always needed that. Right? Like, we may have to go very far back in time, but there was a much younger version of myself who felt comfortable in her skin and wasn't so worried about what people thought and wasn't always trying to avoid making mistakes.

Like, that version of me existed at, you know, maybe I was three or four. I was very young, but I just. I had that sense that she had been there, and somehow I had lost her. And so I think it felt like, okay, I need to figure out a way to return to that. I need to figure out a way to get that back. And I will tell you the work of Brene Brown, I found incredibly powerful, because she talks about numbing. She talks about all of the things that we try to use. So she talks about. I remember this one paragraph where she's talking about the chips and queso and the cigarettes and the beer and the perfectionism and all these things and that. I remember reading that being like, oh, that's me. That's what's going on. So I started doing this work. I started learning about it. I decided I wanted to become a coach. And, I mean, that's really how I got here. That's really kind of the journey that I was on. I think, in part, I was very frustrated that we don't. We have such a limited, narrow conversation how we talk about this.

It's kind of like, do I have a problem or don't I have a problem? Right? Am I an alcoholic or am I a normal drinker? We're very black and white, and I think there are a lot of people that feel like they're in this kind of in between, and being in that in between can feel incredibly frustrating. And it's like nobody understands my situation or what's going on for me.

Yeah. And because it's been framed as two extremes, that always makes you feel like, you know, one's bad, one's good. Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, it's been really challenging to try to locate yourself. So when somebody comes to you and they say, I just want to figure out what a normal relationship with alcohol means for me, whether that means I never drink again, whether it means I have boundaries around it, whether it means I stop making myself wrong about it. How. What is the process you put somebody through, and how do we start it for ourselves?

Yeah. I think that one of the most important things to do is really first understand your mindset. And when I say mindset, mindset. I mean, you know, when you think about, well, what are my reasons for drinking? And what do I make it mean? That I struggle to say no. Right. What do I make it mean when I struggle to follow through on my commitment? What about the idea, even if this isn't where someone's going to land, but, like, if you think about being told that you couldn't drink again, what about that would be upsetting for you, because when you start asking these questions, it's going to reveal some of your big, overarching thoughts about yourself, your ability to change your urges, alcohol, all of that.

Can we take some of them and can you share some of the common things that you hear?

Oh, sure. Well, I mean, over and over again, the thought that people have that I also shared is like, I'm just an all or nothing person. I think I have an addictive personality. I think I'm just very compulsive with my behaviors. I also had the. I think my brain is missing an off switch. So when I ask people, well, what is the struggle about? It's always pointing to something kind of wrong with me, defective with my brain. Some part of me is not functioning correctly, as opposed to, you know, what I'm trying to help people see is, like, what are the tools you need? Right? Like, what are the skills that you need to be able not only to be curious about your urge, but also to allow yourself to have this unanswered desire and not make it into a problem or something terrible that we have to avoid. But, yeah, I'm an all or nothing person. That's a pretty common one.

I also, like, as you were saying, some of these questions, I was thinking, well, what does it mean? Like, because you asked one about, what does it mean? To have a drink.

Mm hmm.

Like, I started thinking about all these situations. Like, well, it's celebratory. It is. You know, like, you're celebrating somebody. It's something you do in groups. It's a lot of fun. It's a way to bond with somebody else. It's a way to enjoy something. I have a lot of, like, I don't want to miss out. Like, if somebody opens up, like, we were at a friend's house the other night, and they opened up one of those super expensive french bottles of wine where you have to, like, push the gray dust off of it that had been gifted to them by somebody. And I'm like, oh, I'm not gonna miss out on that. Like, I wasn't particular. I hadn't had a drink that night. But the second they pulled that out, it's like the gene of FOMO. This is gonna be expensive. I'm gonna try this shit. And so when you think about excuses and the big question that you asked at the end, which is, what does. What was the big question? Because it made my heart go, oh, God.

Oh, like, if you couldn't drink again, right? If it was like, sorry, Mel, we're telling you you can't drink for the rest of your life, I would feel.

Like I'd never have fun again.

Yeah.

Like, I'd miss out on all the celebrations.

I mean, I was like, I'm sorry. How are we supposed to watch March madness? Like, what? Am I ever gonna have sex again? I don't understand. Like, what? Like, there were just so. It's like, are you kidding? So am I ever gonna go to a wedding? Should I just not go to weddings anymore? I'm not gonna have sex. We're not gonna enjoy sports. Like, I guess I'm never gonna dance, you know, in public. I mean, they're just, like, so many things. I was like, well, you gotta be kidding me. Like, you're literally talking about a miserable life. So, yeah, no, thank you. I'll pass.

So what do you do? If that's everything that you think? How do you handle the excuses? Because obviously, none of that's true. That's just a story you're telling yourself. And part of your methodology is getting you to go deeper than the thing that you are reaching for and getting to go deeper around these stories and these excuses that you have and understanding it. So when somebody fills all that out and they're like, okay, I'm never gonna have sex. I'm not gonna dance in public. I can't go to a sports game. My life will be no fun. All my friends who drink won't ever invite me out. I'm an indoor awkward moment after awkward moment where everybody else orders a drink, and I'm like, could I have a seltzer, please? Can I have the mocktail menu? And you feel like you know all of that, and I don't want to miss out on all the fun, and I don't want to do, like, when you write out your excuses, that almost makes you feel like you would retreat toward binge drinking.

Yeah. Because it's like, oh, we have nothing to look forward to. Right.

Yes.

So one of the things I talk about in all those situations that I listed, like, the worst thing that's going to happen is a feeling.

That's true.

But I don't think we understand it that way. Like, no, the worst thing that's going to happen is my life is going to be over.

Yes.

You start to be like, okay, so what is that feeling that comes up when I get on the dance floor, right. Totally sober. What is that feeling that I'm having when I'm sitting in the stands watching baseball and everybody has a beer and I don't. Right. Like, what is that feeling? Like to start to identify the real issue here is not the drink. The real issue is this feeling that it's like, oh, God, if this comes up, then there's nothing to do. Right? Mm hmm.

What's interesting is I'm realizing that the more that you apply this to your life, the more that what you're doing is you're just teaching people how to handle the feelings that come with not reaching for what you normally reach for in that situation.

Yeah. I mean, it starts even just with, like, identifying what the feeling is, because that's a huge piece of what I had to do a lot of work on because I was like, first off, feelings are gross. Why are we talking about them? Ew. I'm not a touchy feely person. So that was my starting point. Can we just, like, let's talk about something logical, not be in this, like. Like, touchy feely, emotional stuff. But then, you know, I was just like, I'm fine. I'm like, I'm fine. I don't. Nothing's wrong. I'm fine like that. I didn't even really have the ability to articulate what was going on a lot of the time. That's a huge piece that I work on with people. It's like, okay, fine's not a feeling. Like, how are we actually feeling. So, again, much like your urges, the ability to just name and notice and also not make it a problem. Like, I feel disappointed right now. How human of me. That's okay. We're supposed to feel disappointed sometimes. I can feel disappointed now because I'm not having the drink, or I can feel disappointed later because I didn't follow through on my commitment.

But disappointments come in either way. So which 01:00 a.m. i going to choose?

I'm reflecting on moments of my life in the last couple years where I didn't drink and, you know, wouldn't have it, whether it's dry January or doing various challenges for a couple months, and everything that you're saying is exactly right, because I would have these urges come up from five to seven at night. And the second that I got through that sort of the wave of feeling, and, like, I didn't feel like having a drink anymore because it wasn't about the drink. It was about the desire of feeling a boundary with work or a desire to join in or a desire to feel that liquid hug or a desire to just be comforted. And it did pass. I guess what I want to make sure that anybody listening has is, you know, if you're like me and you feel. I feel much calmer now. I feel like I understand what the work actually is. If I want to get curious about what would a relationship with or with alcohol really look like? For me, that's very empowering. But for anybody listening, what is the place to start? Like, how do you even begin this inquiry if it doesn't involve not drinking for 30 days?

You know, like, what do you recommend your clients do when somebody comes to you and they're as, like, spun around as I was when we started this conversation? Should I, shouldn't I? I don't know. Is it poison? Is it this? Is something wrong with me. Maybe there's something wrong with me. What's wrong with me? What is wrong with me? Why shouldn't I have one? Like, just where do you begin when you're in the middle of this very conflicted, normal relationship with alcohol, which most people are in? I think most people live there.

Yeah, I I agree. And I start people with really just starting to learn about urges. Learn about the brain. Right? Learn about. Yeah, I've got a higher brain and I've got a lower brain, and they've got different priorities because this is a piece that most people just have no awareness of because we're not taught anything about it. And I think really just learning like, getting some basic information. That is the best place to start. It really is, because I think it does kind of, like, dial back the intensity of it because it's like, oh, wait, so you're saying that an urge is normal and not a problem and doesn't mean that I have to wear a label for the rest of my life and. Right. It's just like dialing that back can be really powerful. Understanding. Oh, I have competing desires. This is normal.

Oh, my God. I just got something. I just got something really powerful. Holy shit. I just realized the hidden freaking superpower in what you're talking about, which is if you focus and become very curious about the desire that comes up, the urge that comes up, the emotion that's underneath it all, the kind of story that you tell yourself, you direct your attention to that exploration, which is so important, because here's what I'm realizing. Do you want to know why I always lose the battle with myself? When I wake up in the morning, I say, I'm not having a drink tonight or I start a Sunday night. And I say, you know, I'm not going to drink this week. I'll just wait until next weekend. And then Monday rolls around 06:00 I go downstairs. It's the sunset. I feel the desire to pour a gin and tonic. Because this is my boundary between work. I now understand what it is when I start to get in conflict with myself. Rachel. Well, you said you weren't going to have a drink, but I feel like having a drink. What's wrong with having a drink? Well, you said you wouldn't, and that's a lack of intent.

I have a drink to shut that conflict down.

Yeah.

I'm not having a drink because I'm addicted to alcohol. I'm having a drink because I can't tolerate being in conflict with those two competing parts of me.

Mm hmm.

Holy shit. That's why the drink habit always wins, because it shuts it down.

So then it's like. It's really, like, even less about alcohol. Right. It's just like, how am I making it okay and normalizing conflict, like, internal conflict is okay?

Yeah, that's pretty cool. So you start by this inquiry, and you said you teach people about the higher and lower brain. Can you tell us about that?

Yeah, I mean, I will say that, you know, I thought the brain was just the lump. It's like, there's a lot. It's a lump in my head. And I just, you know, lost the brain lottery. That was kind of my assessment of my own brain was just like, I don't know. I just didn't get a very good one, or I got one that, like, always wants more. So obviously there are, you know, I'm not an expert on the brain. There are many, many parts of the brain, but I think just understanding at a very basic level, we have a lower brain that is concerned with the immediate moment. It does not care about tomorrow. It does not care about the future. It cares about right now. And that's a good thing, actually. Right. That lower brain is really helpful for survival, but it cares about right now. It cares about finding pleasure, avoiding pain. It wants to do things efficiently. It wants to save energy. Now, thankfully, we also have a higher brain. We have that prefrontal cortex. We have that ability, that part of ourselves that can think about tomorrow and our goals and our dreams and our future.

And it can weigh pros and cons, and it can get curious and ask questions. Like, we have both parts of the brain. And that's actually an amazing thing if we start to understand, hey, how am I going to manage this lower brain? So, you know, I also talk about it like, the toddler. Like, how are you going to manage when the toddler is freaking out? The toddler. Right. Like, watch my own children. It's like they want what they want when they want it, and trying to have, like, an intellectual conversation with them about why they shouldn't really want it. And this is not how we behave. You're not going to get anywhere. As opposed to, okay, I have this higher brain. I have this adult brain. What am I going to do in this situation to navigate the tantrum that is actually going to be useful, giving in? Probably not so useful, because then what does the toddler learn? It's like, oh, this is how I get my way. This is a good thing.

So the higher brain is the one that you're using to tolerate the urge.

Yeah.

And to ride the wave. And the lower brain is the one that is going, oh, sunset desire. Boundary equals shiny.

Yeah.

This is what I want.

You've taught me when we watch a sunset, I get a drink. This is what we do. Right? I remembered, see, I reminded you. I saw sunset, and I was like, drink. Like, lower brain is doing its job.

Oh, my God, that's so helpful.

Because it's like you. I mean, I think we all really understand, like, we're not gonna have, like, an intellectual conversation with the toddler.

No. You're basically gonna go, I understand that you're upset.

Mm hmm.

And that feeling or desire is value but that feeling or desire is true.

Yep.

And that's not what we're doing right now.

That's not what we're doing. And I know this is hard, and I'm going to be here with you, and I'm going to stay by your side. You're not in trouble. You're not doing anything wrong, but you're going to. I'm going to help you see yourself through to the other side. And, like. And you know what? It still will probably be a little uncomfortable, but so much less uncomfortable than, like, why are you throwing a tantrum? You're not supposed to be having a tantrum right now.

Is there any. I know you don't tell people what to do, but is there any prescribed method, like, when a client that you're working with says, okay, I want to try the. I want to try to tolerate the urges. I want to try to notice when the lower and the upper brain are in conflict and rely on the upper brain to get me through this moment where I'm gonna go to a baseball game and I'm not gonna order a beer. Is there anything that you tell people to do, like, for five days, don't have a drink. Or, you know, or do you talk about specific scenarios, like, how do you get somebody to really start practicing this? Because I can also see how this, if you've been in conflict for a long time, this could become one of those things where you think about it a lot.

Yeah.

But you don't actually try it.

Right. So I think that the. The process always starts with, we got to learn something. We got to learn about how the brain works. We got to learn some of these tools. I have people take a 30 day break from drinking, and I believe it's very different than kind of like a dry January or sober October. Because what I'm always telling people is the 30 days, I want you to focus on using the tools. Yes, we are using the tools to say no, but I want you to focus on, like, this is me going all in on trying out all these techniques, all the techniques to manage my urges, all the techniques to talk back to my excuses. I'm going to be using these tools, and I'm going to be discovering some work better than others. Right. So I always have to be in this place of assessing and adjusting. Did that work? Did that not work? I think a lot of times what happens, you know, dry January, there can be a lot of benefits, but it kind of. The point is making it 30 days. And I'm like, listen, we're doing these 30 days regardless.

It doesn't matter if you drink on day number two. That's good data, right? That means something didn't work. Let's look at what didn't work. Let's examine that and let's figure out what we need to do to prepare. Now, I will tell you, that's a huge mindset shift for people, because a lot of people, they say I'm all or nothing when it comes to drinking. I actually think they're all or nothing about commitment. It's kind of like I either was committed and I did it right and gold star, or I broke my commitment, and now it's like, okay, why bother? I made a mistake, so now I get to have as much as I want. And it's kind of like learning how to change means developing a different relationship with commitment. Like, okay, yesterday.

Wait, say that again.

Learning how to change. How to change means developing a different relationship with commitment. You can't have an all or nothing relationship with commitment. It can't be, I was good, I was committed, and I followed through and I was good, or I broke my commitment. I was bad. That mindset, you're screwed.

So what do you do with that person who says, okay, we're going to do the 30 days of not drinking, and I'm going to try the tools. And day eight rolls around and it's a beautiful sunset, or it's a really bad day at work, or you hear, you get really, really horrible news. The last time I wasn't drinking, I got news that a friend of ours died, and I was like, fuck this shit. I'm having a cocktail. So if I were doing the 30 days with you, what is the data? Like, what can I learn from that day where I didn't keep my commitment to myself?

Yeah, okay, so there's a process, right, that I have people go through to actually look back and understand what was happening in the moment. Right? Like when you were saying, fuck this shit, what was going on? What were you saying? Fuck this shit. To.

Life. Being hard. Commitment being hard. Sticking to my 30 day promise. Being hard. Probably if I go a little, that's at the surface. If I go a little bit deeper, it was being really pissed off and really sad that my friend had died and wanting to just, like, numb it out. Like, not have to feel anything. And sticking to a commitment or a new. Or changing, you know, like, developing those new neural paths, that's hard work. And so I did not want to have to work hard at, like, sticking to a promise when all I wanted to do was fucking have a drink and lay down on the couch and cry about my friend.

Yeah. I mean, so all of a sudden we get to see it, like, through the lens of, like, oh, it was sadness, it was grief. It was the belief that, like, this emotion is too big. It's too much. I can't handle it. I don't want to be with it. I shouldn't have to be with it. Which also so normal.

Yeah.

And so it's like, yeah, of course your brain went to the thing that. It's like, I know how we get out. Like, I know the shortcut. Here's the shortcut. To not have to feel our emotions. We have the drink.

That's the lower brain, right?

Yup.

That's the lower brain going. I recognize this pattern, right?

And so all of a sudden it's like, oh, okay, what? This wasn't me breaking my commitment and being bad. This was me in the moment of having all of this pain and sadness bubble up, not feeling like I had an alternative for how to manage it or handle it.

How does recognizing that help you have a stronger muscle when it comes to commitment? Well, because you're right. Because I'm sitting here going, I totally agree with you. All or nothing when it comes to commitment. You're either good or you're bad. You either have integrity or you don't. You either stick to your promises or your fuck up, and you never will. Like, you know, like that kind of thinking. And if I take on a 30 day challenge and I fuck it up on day twelve, then I fucked up the whole thing.

Right. But remember, what did I say the goal of the challenge was?

It's not to not drink for 30 days, isn't it?

Not drinking. Right? We said not drinking. It's not drinking.

The goal was to use the tools.

Use the tools.

But I didn't lose the tools, so I actually didn't do the challenge. See how quick I am to, like, go bad, Mel.

Okay, so now we don't. So, like, this happens on day two. So day three, we can't go back to using the tools.

Yeah, we can.

Yeah. And we just make progress so much faster right. When we're not, it's kind of like, oh, well, I tried, and that didn't work. Now I was bad. Now I'm gonna go into shame spiral, and I'm either just gonna, like, stop trying, right. Because it's like, see, nothing works. I'm just gonna, like, give up. Or, like, I would either go into the, like, okay, nothing works. Let's just, like, eff it. I just have permission to, like, drink and eat and, like, do all the things that I wanna do, or I would go into the place of, like, okay, now we're gonna make, like, this super crazy restrictive rule because I was so bad, but, like, deep down, I know I can't follow it at all.

People do that on diets non stop. Yeah, I see such a direct parallel with the way we are all around eating.

Yeah.

And I want to go back to my breakthrough just a couple minutes ago, because I'm starting to see that if you take on a 30 day challenge like this to use the tools, and to use the tools to not drink for 30 days as a way to learn and develop the muscle of commitment and understanding yourself better, if you screw up on day two or twelve or 28, and then you bash yourself for not having a perfect streak, the likelihood is I would then just bail on the challenge altogether because the amount of shame I would throw at myself and the conflict I would feel would be so much that I'd want to turn it off by having a drink. Yeah.

Except what if it wasn't a screw up? Like, what if you didn't make a mistake? And I don't mean. I mean, like, what if the decision to say yes to the drink wasn't a mistake? It wasn't a screw up.

Well, how could it not be if I am making a commitment?

Because maybe it's trying to give you insight into something that you are missing, like a skill that you don't have, or a response that you don't have to, an excuse or something that you're, you know, like you're not aware of. Like maybe you don't have the awareness. So I'm using it as a boundary. And maybe it's that moment where you're like, okay, I tried and then it didn't work, and I said yes. And then when you go back and look, it's like, oh, like, we can't get awareness just by being perfect. I think that's the, that's the misconception I just had.

You're right, you can't. And I just had another insight. The more I talk to you, the deeper we're going. Here's my big insight. I don't know if we have enough time to talk about this one. I realized that I hate being told what to do.

Oh, yeah, me too.

Even by myself. Like, I. It's like this rebel thing. You're not going to tell me what to do, even if I said, I want to do this thing. I'm not going to do that thing that I said that I would do. I'll show you. Is that a normal thing that you hear with people?

Yes. This is a huge thing. I often talk to people when they're really struggling. It's like, okay, so what is the language that you're using to say no to the drink? They're like, well, I'm just saying that I can't have a drink. Okay. When you tell yourself you can't have a drink, how does that make you feel? Pissed off?

Yes.

Yeah. Because here's the thing. It's not even true that you can't have a drink.

Explain that.

You're like, but we said we can't. Well, I mean, we're. You're an adult woman. We're living in a country where alcohol is accessible. You have money, arguably, like, you have an app. Maybe it will deliver. You have a car. Of course you can drink. You're choosing to say no. There's such a. This is probably because my father was an english teacher, and so he's always, like, hounding the importance of words. But there's such a big difference between, like, when I tell myself I can't have something versus, okay, I'm choosing not to, and here's why. I. I still might. It still might feel a little uncomfortable for me, but I'm not pissed. I'm not seeking to rebel.

How do you get somebody to have a big enough? A big enough why? For doing this process.

Well, what do you mean when you say a big enough? Why?

Well, if somebody's already conflicted about whether or not they want to stop drinking or whether or not they want to change their relationship with drinking, and I already see my anger is going to come up. My rebel nature is going to come up. My toddler tantum throwing bullshit is going to come up. My concern that I can't make the streak is going to come up, and that's going to reveal that I have a huge problem. And yet I still feel drawn to want to take this on.

Mm hmm.

You know what it is? I literally, like, am worried I can't do it.

But what's the thing you're worried that you can't do?

Like, stick to not drinking for 30 days, even though I've done it before.

And even though I told you you didn't have to do it. Like, that was not the point.

Yeah.

Listen, I think I'm trying to figure.

Out how to do this right, and I'm trying to get so you won't.

Be mean to yourself. I mean, this is all you're doing, right? You're like, oh, I'm just trying to avoid being an asshole to myself.

Yes.

If you just knew that you weren't going to be mean to yourself, if there wasn't the threat of, okay, when you screw up, right. We're gonna like, beat you up and say all the nasty, mean things.

I don't know. I've never tried life like that. No, I think I'm going to try the 30 days.

It's like when people are like, I just. I don't want to try.

Not today. Not today. I'm going on a beach vacation. I want to reserving the right to watch a sunset. But no, I want to. I'm like, really interested in this because I'm tired of the conflict.

Yeah.

Within me. And I think there's peace that's accessible in this. And it is very freeing for somebody like me. And I think for a large number of you listening to go, oh, wait a minute, I don't have to choose between. I drink all the time and I don't drink at all. I can end the internal conflict that I feel and I can learn more about urges and desires and tolerating things and my, and operate from my higher brain instead of letting my lower brain control me. And I can get myself out of this cycle of shame and management and conflict and all this shit by simply trying what you're saying for 30 days of using these tools and naming the desire and tolerating the desire and watching your excuses and going a layer deeper. And how do we get information on how to do this?

So you can go to rachelheart.com, my website.

We're going to link to all this. Yep.

Yeah. I just want to add, I will say that so much of this is just changing your relationship with yourself, right? Because if you knew that you weren't going to be mean to yourself when you weren't perfect, you'd be so much more willing to try it, right? You'd be so much more willing to say, I'm going to do this thing because I'm not going to make it mean that something's wrong with me or I'm broken or, see, I really have a problem or I knew I couldn't do it. And that's the thing that I think so often we're actually struggling with is how we talk to ourselves in the moment that we go with the lower brain as opposed to like, oh, how normal. I don't have to make it mean that I'm broken or something's wrong with me or I'm a bad person.

I also see for myself that I have a story that it's gonna be painful and why would I? This is the story, by the way. It's probably coming from the lower brain. I have this story that it's going to be really hard. It's going to be really painful. I'm not going to have the fun. Like, my work is already, like, all consuming and I'm going to be missing out on something. And the fact is that I'm missing out on peace with myself and being kind to myself. It's already really hard because I ride this conflict with wave within me all the time and I just silence that shit by having a cocktail and ending the fight. And I'm afraid of the desire and the urge and needing to tolerate that for 2 hours during the window that I normally fix myself a drink on the nights I'm drinking.

I think this goes back to what you were saying about the big why. I don't think it can be all about improving my physical health. Yes, there are benefits there, but it's like, what's the point of doing this work? What's the point of having a peaceful relationship with alcohol? Or what's the point of having more authority over my urges? Why am I practicing these skills? Who do I want to become? Right? So it's moving towards something that I think because anything we do, anytime we grow, anytime we build a muscle, it's going to be uncomfortable. At first. That's normal. But if it feels like I'm just okay, so I get to be healthier. I had a client once say, when I was working with her on her compelling reasons, I had her say, I just want to be the captain of my own soul. And I was like, yeah.

What are the compelling reasons?

So the compelling reasons are kind of like, can you kind of write down, can you look at different aspects of your life, whether it's your health or your emotional well being or your relationships, maybe it's your career or your goals or your faith or money, time, productivity, to look at all of these areas of your life and start to ask yourself, why would it be worth it for me to change my relationship with alcohol? How would these areas of my life benefit? And I think it's kind of going a little bit beyond like, I don't know. I mean, my liver would get a break and maybe I would wake up regretful.

Yeah, my hot flashes wouldn't be so bad. I love the captain of the soul. That really spoke to me because I am somebody who is uber intentional and Uber in control and have done so much work on myself as a leader and as a mom and as a wife and as a human and improving my relationship with myself. And I feel like the one area where I have this friction between old and new is this conflict I feel around whether or not I'm gonna have a cocktail. And you have been so profoundly helpful because I have realized a couple very liberating things. And I realize I'm about to say something very controversial, particularly for those of you who are sober. But I really profoundly believe I do not have an issue with alcohol. After talking with you, I really do. I believe I have a major issue with the desire that's driven by a boundary between work and relaxing and turning my brain off, and the desire to join in and belong with others in moments of celebration and being able to do a change and neural pathway and habit exercise where I examine this lovingly through these deeper desires.

They're all tied up with alcohol for some dumb reason. I think it would give me more of a sense that I'm driving the ship in all areas of my life, because this is kind of the one where I feel like, why can't I? Like, what the fuck is this about? And I've been focused on the alcohol and the black or white, not the much richer and deeper opportunity, knowing myself in the way that you are, helping people around the world who come to you and work with you around their urges and their relationship to their desires, and alcohol specifically. So thank you.

You're welcome. Thanks for having me.

Of course. Hey, it's Mel. Thank you so much for being here. If you enjoyed that video, by God, please subscribe because I don't want you to miss a thing. Thank you so much for being here. We've got so much amazing stuff coming. Thank you so much for sending this stuff to your friends and your family. I love you. We create these videos for you, so make sure you subscribe. Bye.