You are teaching the world this revolutionary concept called conscious parenting. Can you explain what that is?

What I teach in conscious parenting is kind of against the grain. Right? It's revolutionary in that it's not focused on curating, producing, micromanaging this perfect product called a child, but instead focuses on the awakening of the parent's consciousness. Because I truly believe the future of the planet lies in the evolution of the parent.

So. Okay. Okay, you already. Cause that is a very big departure from what most parenting experts are focused on, which are strategies for either connecting with or controlling your child's behavior.

Right.

And your focus is on using the experience of parenting to awaken something within you.

Right? Awaken the parents, because no matter what you say to your child, you may have the best script, but if you are operating from a place of disconnect within yourself, then no matter what you tell your child, it will land in a way that is disconnected and disempowering for the child. What I help parents understand is that their internal disconnection from their own self governance, their own self authority, their own inner knowing, which they divorced from, you know, way back in childhood, is still operating in their parenting today. And the relationship with their children is not here so much to fix the child, but to use the relationship as a mirror to their own unhealed self.

Whoa. Your approach is to get parents to understand that your job is not to change or fix the child, but to use the experience to change or fix and heal something about yourself.

Right? The child is not broken, so there's nothing to fix. So if you come with that attitude of, I need to fix and micromanage and, you know, produce this star achiever that I can post on Facebook about and share with all my friends and feel good and tell my mom and dad, look, I'm not a loser. See, I did good. That whole approach is never going to work well, because you're operating from a state of lack and scarcity and unworthiness, looking for your child to be your trophy. So the first thing I help parents understand is that this anxiety that they have translates to control. And children who feel subconsciously, even that they are being controlled will begin to operate from their own brokenness because they will think to themselves, why am I being controlled all the time? Why am I being micromanaged all the time? It must be because I'm broken. So if we look back to our own childhood, to our own parenting, we will remember moments where we felt disconnected, disempowered by our parents. And we wanted to protest, saying, hey, no, I know who I am. Or let me be me.

But we were denied that right and disconnected from our knowing because they were operating from anxiety and a need to control. So the one thing I offer parents through this approach, if they have to and they have to learn it, if they're open to it, is an invitation to release control, because our children are not controllable. Life is not controllable. And that is the greatest nugget of wisdom. The jewel I offer through conscious parenting is imagine raising your children without anxiety and control.

Is that possible?

Of course. But it requires a lot of inner work on the part of the parent. And it's constant and it's daily and it's to be cultivated. It's a practice. So conscious parenting is the art of living in the moment. Understanding that life is so precarious and fragile that any instinct to control will actually create the opposite effect of more uncontrollability. You know, I wrote a book called out of control because we're operating out of control, but everything becomes out of control. And the whole world is operating out of this desire to control. If you look all around you, monuments and cathedrals to our need to be significant, to control our anxiety that we're not good enough. And if the parent operates out of that unknowingly, that I am not good enough, and therefore I need to raise a child who is a superstar. Actually, you will raise a child who feels unworthy, because paradoxically, it is when you raise the child who feels good enough, as they are, without the tentacles of your control. Now that child will be raised on a bastion of inner empowerment.

One thing I want to just establish at the very beginning, because we are going to focus so much on both the act of parenting, but also on being parented. So your own experience of growing up, your own experience of how your parents shaped you, could you speak to the person listening who is not a parent? Because we have so many just mothers and daughters and fathers and sons and friends that share episodes to one another, that I could see this conversation today being a big one, where maybe you send this to your mom or dad to get them to think differently about your relationship. Or your mom or dad is sending it down to a daughter or son. And so if you do not have children, though, as you're listening to the conversation today, how would you advise somebody to listen to you and to what you're about to teach us today so that it impacts your life whether you are parenting a child or not?

Yeah, I always say my work is really for any human raising a child or who has been one. Right, a parent or someone who's been parented. So my work is all about deconstructing and demystifying the institutions of culture that have pervaded our minds and our belief systems in such pernicious ways. And the reason why I focus on parents is not because I'm so in love with children necessarily, but it's because I see that that's how the transmission of those institutional belief systems gets passed down. So which better source to cut it at is the parent? So I help the parent disrupt their conditioning, their harmful conditioning, so that the next generations can be free. But it is for any human who's been parented. So what institutions am I talking about? This whole idea that we need to raise a successful child, that is a myth. It comes from the institution of achievement and wealth and competition and climbing the ladder. And from a young age, we're training our children to go off to college. Children don't even have a childhood anymore because of the parents anxiety and desire to control the future, which in the parents mind, because they're indoctrinated, is I need to raise a kid who is a superstar, which means wealthy, elite with a good career.

Now, those aspirations could be worthy, but when that is the sole focus, you miss the process, you miss the essence of who your child is, and you actually fill your child with anxiety about the future. Let's take another institution that's very common in parenting. I want my child to be happy. Right? The institution of happiness. It's an institution. In fact, our entire culture is chasing happiness. Well, that is a disease. It's a toxic way to live, to parent, to be parented. Because when our focus is on this ubiquitous ideal called happiness, we missed the process that occurs in this present moment. And children, more than any human, has the capacity to live in the present moment. And they beckon us to the present moment. But because we're only focused on happiness for the future and raising that superstar tomorrow, we're missing the awakening that can happen in the experience of the here and the now.

I am listening to you and I'm thinking both as a parent, yes. And as somebody who has been conditioned to chase success and chase happiness. And I can admit to you easily, I can see it right now, that, you know, I absolutely was about the chasing success early in the parenting, but I've just passed that off to happiness. And I thought I was doing it right. I'm like, oh, I don't care if they're successful. I don't care about the grades. I don't care what college they go to. Not, I just want my kids to be happy. But I didn't think that that was causing anxiety. How does that cause anxiety?

Oh my goodness. So can we deconstruct it for a second?

Of course.

So first and foremost, you're absolutely right. Parents in the new age, the positive psychological parents who are so enlightened, have just completely, euphemistically transferred the focus from achievement and money and wealth because that's too passe and too primitive onto this more enlightened concept called happiness. But it's equally a load of B's as before. Let me tell you why deconstruct the sentence. I just want my child to be happy. You know, I love when parents come to me, they say, doctor Shephali, ok, ok, ok. I've learned everything you've said. I don't care if my child is a carpenter, a ballet dancer or a monk in Tibet. I have given up the Ivy League dream and they think they have done a big job, which they have to a degree. All I want, Doctor Shafal, you know, all I'm asking for is that they just be happy. Okay, so let's deconstruct. I just want my child to be happy.

Yes.

What's the first letter? I just. What's the third letter word?

Want.

Yep.

Okay.

I want my. Okay child. Every word there is problematic. So it starts with I, which is full of ego, want, meaning I want my. The possessive because this being belongs to me child. So I want for another being to be in a state that works for me. And I call that state happiness. And it should look like being grateful, always smiling, feeling really, you know, empowered and successful and worthy. So what happens then when the child doesn't have those states of being that I have deemed are happy? Then what happens?

I'll tell you what happens.

Yeah.

I freak out.

Exactly.

And I start trying to fix everything.

Exactly.

And I start worrying about it. In fact, I was on the phone with my husband this morning. I'm realizing I've fallen right into your trap. I am now the parent that needs the coaching. Yes, Doctor Shabali. And so I was on the phone with my husband Chris this morning because I'm really worried about one of our kids.

Yes.

Because I saw this post that went up and I'm like, that's not them. That looks kind of cringey. What are they doing? They don't look happy.

Correct.

We got to find a therapist. Something is wrong. And so I swooped right in exactly. Like a freaking control freak. But since I have been focused on emotion. Yes, I think it is noble.

It is noble. Exactly. And I talk about, what should I do?

Make them sit and suffer.

Right, right.

See, I'm like, I know.

And that's what parents will do when I just suggest to the parent, can we just pause and just look at our control issues? You know what they say in protest? Exactly what you just said. Oh, so then I should just make my kids suffer? Like I'm going to just allow them to do drugs, sex and rock and roll? Is that what you're saying?

Is that what you're saying?

So look how we go, like, because you cannot even tolerate, correct me, just saying. Okay, can we just pause for a moment and reevaluate where we are? Your anxiety takes you. Oh, okay, fine. Then I'll just let them smoke pot with me and become an alcoholic.

Right? And you want to know what I'm also getting? That my reaction is the same reaction that I experienced from my parents when I did something that triggered that 100%.

Because we have children, okay? If we're really honest so that they can make us feel good about ourselves, we have children to fill our inner void of unworthiness. If we're really honest, we don't have children so that they can discover who it is they are. That just sounds too chaotic and scary and too much in the unknown. We have children so that we can take the trophy home to our parents and go see I am worthy and let them be the mirror of our own deep sense, deep desire, craving for significance. And unless we are willing and brave enough to look under the hood of that ego and own with humility and compassion, yes, that's why I had a child, so I can feel good about myself. Then we are now progressing. But to get parents to even to admit that, oh, my goodness, I sweat bullets and cry blood and tears because the parental ego is so firmly in place by society. Really, it's not the parents fault.

So now let me put on the hat of being a daughter.

Yes.

And so as you're listening, whether you have kids in your life, you are somebody's kid.

Yeah. Always.

Always. It doesn't matter how old you are until your parents die, you still have somebody in your life where you are the child. And one of the things that has really struck me is how what I feel has been passed down as something toxic in my kind of from my grandparents to parents to me to my kids, is this sense of just loyalty and duty that you are supposed to do absolutely everything that your parents would like for you to do, whether it's coming home on certain weekends or it is wearing your hair a certain way, or it is because we owe them.

We owe that. That is the subtle subscript of all parenting. That because the parent is so deluded to believe that they're actually having the child out of selflessness, they have convinced the child, through the songs over the crib and the breastfeeding, that I am doing all this like a martyr for you, my child. So we've convinced the child, very insidiously, that all this is for you. Therefore, you owe me undying loyalty, duty, obligation and allegiance, and you will pay with your soul.

I think this is why we all feel so guilty.

Oh, isn't it? Yes, exactly. Because the parent doesn't want to own that they are having the child for them. The moment you can own to a child. Listen, I am a lunatic. I'm unhealed. I really just had you to feel good about myself. I'm so sorry. The child will say to you, thank you. I knew that already. Right. We know when our parents are using us. Our children know when they're being objectified. You know, we women talk about being objectified by culture, but the first objectification starts between parent and child.

What do you think the most toxic parenting behavior is?

It's exactly this, where you use your child to fulfill your unmet fantasies, expectations and desires and do not own it and pretend as if you're so selfless that you're doing it all for these children who are so ungrateful. And if only they could understand the sacrifices we've been through. And that is the subtle imprint on our children's psyche. And that's how we keep them, you know, festered to, you know, in a way, to our own wounds. We keep them festering in this way and connected.

Well, you know, it's interesting is when my mom was in college, she and my dad, you know, met, and she ended up getting pregnant with me. And when she had me, she dropped out of college. And she has said to me, and she has said to my two daughters in particular, I gave up everything.

Yes, yes.

For your mother.

So imagine that subscript. Now. She said it blatantly, but we are saying this over the dinner table constantly. Like, how could you do that? Aren't you happy I got you to the beach? Look, I enrolled you in dance classes. What do you mean you want to drop out? It happens in the most subtle and also not so subtle ways, all the way from who you're going to marry. How can you leave the traditions of our family system, the caste, the race, in all sorts of ways? We have these invisible puppeteering strings tethered to our children and we keep them, keep them to us because we have not empowered ourselves and we haven't awakened ourselves into our own authenticity. You see, because we're not authentic, we're not living in our own power and knowing we need our children to complete us. We need them to fulfill all that is unfulfilled within.

And if you are, and yes, and if you don't have kids yet, you feel this tether to your own parents, which is why there's that conflict between you being who you want to be, but constantly defaulting and thinking to what are they going to think about it? And, you know, I'll be the first to admit that this behavior of feeling like, well, you owe me. Yes, I did everything I could. I paid for that. So I expect you to behave a certain way. This is the single biggest behavior and way of thinking that I am trying to break. Yes, it comes up all the time when I get triggered and when I then want to control what somebody's doing, that if I don't get the control, I immediately go to, well, you should be doing it right. Like, look at everything I've overdone.

Yes.

It's insidious.

Yes. And the reason why I focus so much on parental control and the unmasking of it versus giving strategies on how to get your kids to eat carrots and giving strategies for what to say at bedtime, I'm like, screw the strategies. Yeah, because if you're coming from a split off, disconnected, disempowered place of lack, it doesn't matter, because that is what your child is going to absorb. Screw the carrots. Get in alignment with your own true self first, because children will pick up the bullshit and they will absorb your anxiety. And the reason why we are robots in adult life, searching for love in all the wrong places is because we were raised by parents who weren't authentically in their own body, in their being, in their presence. We were raised disconnected. So our first primary relationship was disconnected. And we're walking around like zombies looking for connection through the corporate corner office, through the botox, through the jewelry, through the Maseratis, because we're searching for that thing on the outside, because we never cultivated it on the inside. So that's the work I do with parents. And parents get really upset with me because they're like, oh, you didn't give me the three keys to fix my child's social media addiction.

I said, because they are not the problem. Only, of course, they become eventual problems. But it starts in the parent's psyche. The child is born in the parent's psyche. How is the parent perceiving the child? And the parent will perceive the child based on how the parent perceives themselves. So our relationship with our children is just like every intimate relationship, a mirror of how we relate to ourselves.

Which is why your entire philosophy about conscious parenting and having an awakening yourself is important for all of us.

Yes.

So why don't we start with then, the positive definition of what is a parent's job?

Yes.

Because I can see that I've been trying to control. I can see the legacy of you owe me. I gave you life, I paid for your life. I can see all that. I know I'm not supposed to be the friend. I know I'm not supposed to be the enabler. I don't want my kids to be entitled. What the hell is my role?

Yeah, I love it. Our role is actually so eloquently, elegantly simple that parents are actually not going to like what I'm going to say, even though I'm helping them liberate out of all the anxieties. Our role is to really be the bastion and the refuge of unconditional presence, unconditional acceptance. But it needs to be embodied, and that's the hard part, right?

I don't even know what you just said. Like, this is so far away from what I'm doing. What does this even mean?

Because you're here, right? Most parents are here. How do I fix, how do I control? How do I get my kid to take the science and the physics and the, you know, and the finance course and how do I get them to not be in that relationship? We're so focused externally to puppeteer these beings who actually don't require puppeteering. It's coming from our machinations of anxiety. It's all being produced in our movie because we are not, in the present moment, connected to ourselves. So what is our role? Our role is to be the embodiment of unconditional acceptance. Every human being desires to be seen to be considered worthy to have unconditional validation for who it is they are. In their essence, every human being wants to be in the presence of others where they feel good enough as they are. Correct?

Yes.

So you desire just like me, just like every authentic human being, we desire to be seen for who it is we are. We desire to be told that we're good enough as we are that we don't need to be perfect, that wherever we move in life, it will be our destiny, our adventure to own. Even though it doesn't look like the script or the prescription that you had for me now, then I experience freedom in your presence. I feel liberated because you are not impinging your worth onto me. You are in your own lane, working on your own self esteem. Now I'm free to be an f up, to be whoever I want to be because you are not impinging your.

Worth on me or your anxiety or your need to continue all of it.

Or how you. You are faring as a parent. Based on how I am doing. I tell parents all the time how your child is faring in the world doesn't give you a grade. How you are faring in the world gives you a grade. But we look at our children as the trophy for our self worth. And that's the enmeshment that is toxic.

Well, I want to broaden this out because I have a feeling that you may be listening to this episode and listening to Doctor Shefali. And I want to validate something that you're saying, which is if you just think about your own experience as a human being and what it was like or it wasn't like when you were a child and you now think about yourself as an adult. Every one of us can relate to this idea that when you feel controlled by your parents or you feel judged by them or you feel like there's going to be friction there, what do you do? You just pull away.

Yes.

And you hide more of yourself.

And you lie.

And you lie.

You wear a mask.

Yes.

And you live in authentically.

Yes. And so the invitation that you have for each and every one of us is to recognize this dynamic that you have with the parents that you love or that, you know, have whatever kind of relationship with, you know that this is true.

Yes.

That when you feel judged, when you feel controlled, when you feel somebody else's anxiety and worry creeping onto you, you literally shrink and hide and run away and pull away from it. And what you're here to say is that, a, you are passing this now to your kids. And I would imagine you probably also see this with the way that people are in romantic relationships, everybody with their friendships, that you're doing the same thing. And that the invitation is to recognize it and to have this awakening in yourself so that you are okay and you are present and you create enough space around you so that your parents can be your parents, your kids and your friends and your significant other can be themselves. And you can recognize, like, your own emotion and your own ability to be okay with the ups and downs of it all. Is that what we're working on here?

Yes. And it's so hard to do in the parents parenting journey, isn't it? Because they literally, at least biologically, come from you. So for the parent to conceive that I don't own this being, I don't possess this being, and I shouldn't control this being, is unfathomable, because you're like, what the hell? It came from here. Look, I have these stretch marks. Look, I have all the cellulite. It came from me. It's mine. So conscious parenting really has its underpinnings in eastern spirituality and meditation. And therefore, it's a deeper philosophy than just strategies to fix the perfect, to create the perfect child. Until people understand that our biggest plague in humanity is our desire to impose control, possession, ownership over others, they will not understand what I'm saying. So this is really a call to something bigger than parenting. It's an awakening of humanity to understand that our children, our partners, our lovers, our siblings, each of us has our own unique destiny. And whenever that destiny doesn't match with ours, it creates panic, because we all want to be mirrored, we all want to be enmeshed because we're hungry for that validation. But if we realize that that validation needs to come from within, and each one of us has the complete freedom to live our own path, now, we can walk by each other's side without the need to micromanage and fly free to a destiny of our own making.

But that takes supreme inner empowerment and inner discernment, inner boundaries, inner power. So that's what I'm teaching parents, enter your own power, because when you enter your own power and claim it, you will not need your children to be a certain way, look a certain way, and they will fly free to a destiny that is glorious. But you have to trust that. And that takes supreme maturity and it takes a wholeness of self.

Let's just. And as you're listening to doctor Shefali, I want you to think about a battle for control that you have right now with either a child that you're parenting, or if you're not a parent, think about a significant other. You want them to exercise more, you want them to eat healthy, you want them to be more proactive at their job. You wish they weren't such a slob.

And so lovely things.

Lovely things, yes. And in your heart.

You're a good person.

Good person. And you know that this is like going to who they could be and it's going to help them. And you're all good intentions. Yes, exactly. Yes, exactly. And so you, like, want to control this person that you love deeply and you want to control them because how.

Do we go deeper?

Yes. And you know what I see, too? I see this happening with relationships.

Yes.

I see so much pressure that everybody is putting on their significant other and their dating and the prom prosal proposal, and now, like, the fancy Instagram posts and what it's all got to look like, it's like everything has been ramped up.

Yes.

How do you stop making your child or your significant other or your parents the enemy?

Because you realize that the only reason people are enemies to us is because they've triggered something deep within us that we haven't healed. There is no enemy, really, on the outside except for people who physically subjugate you. And even then, they're not real enemies because ultimately, mental liberation is an inner job. So in terms of psychological enemies, those are created by your own unhealed self, I'm sorry to say, after a certain age now, children who tell me that they are being emotionally abused by their parents, those children, I will fully validate and I will call the parents to task. But after a certain age, I tell those children if they've grown up after 21, I say, okay, it's time for you to release the unconsciousness your parents burdened you with and all the suffering that they indoctrinated you with. It's time to release them. And now to parent yourself. Because I believe every human is a parent to their own inner child.

That's beautiful. Every human is a parent to their own inner child. I love that. What do you do if you're listening right now, Doctor Shefali, and you're having this kind of heaviness in your heart because you're really maybe for the first time, giving yourself permission to see your experience as a child and to realize that your parents did not give you what you needed, that there was this battle for control, that you do feel this sense of obligation and undying loyalty and you didn't feel seen. What is your advice to somebody who's kind of having that awakening of what their experience has been?

Yeah. So that realization is huge. Coming to that awareness, although it's a heavy awareness to come to, is actually the first step of disrupting patterns and healing generational pain. We actually cannot avoid that trauma of that realization, that holy shit, I wasn't honored for who it is I was. Or I've been living a lie. Or I've been living inauthentically. In fact, if a person doesn't come to the humble footsteps of that realization, they haven't really begun the awakening process. That is the first step of coming to your knees and going, holy shit, I've been living a lie. Oh, my God, I didn't see this. Where have I been living? I didn't realize this about myself. I've been living as a puppet to my parents fantasies for all this time. I've been lying to my authentic self. That is the key. So to come to that realization is the jewel, but it comes with pain. So now can we tolerate that pain and then take the next step forward? So what is the next step? Okay, now let's have compassion for where our parents came from. They only did what they did to the level of consciousness.

They had a. We all operate only to the degree of consciousness we have. We're not good or bad. I stay away from those labels. We are all on a spectrum of consciousness to unconsciousness at any given point in time. So once we come to that wisdom, we can see their pain. We can see that they did not parent themselves. We can see that our grandma and grandpa were really, you know.

Yes.

So then we have compassion, and we have compassion for our mistakes with our children, and we don't go back and berate ourselves, because that's, again, continuing the cycle of low worth and scarcity. And then we begin to start in the here and now. No matter how old your child is, no matter how old you are, no matter how many marriages or divorces, the moment to begin living an awakened life is available right here, right now. And it's difficult to get your mind out of the resentments and regrets of the past. But it is in our power to bring that mind to the beauty and abundance that this moment allows for you.

I want to thank you for highlighting the fact that when you start to have this awakening, that you don't want to do things the same way that your parents or grandparents did, that you want to truly have this awakening of taking control of yourself and your life and the way that you go through life, that there is this knee jerk reaction, especially on social media, to just judge and call people toxic and cancel and cut your parents out and all that stuff. And I am so happy that you just highlighted this idea that, first of all, this is their first time being human beings.

Absolutely.

And how could you expect somebody who was probably raised in a very troubling manner to somehow magically evolve. I'm not excusing any, like, abuse or like, anything that was done to any of us, but really bringing a lens of compassion to, oh, somebody is repeating the patterns that were done to them. They did what they did based on the consciousness that they have. And now that I am listening to Doctor Shefali and I am learning all these things, I have a level of consciousness that's different.

Yes.

And if you then jump on the bandwagon of judge toxic, cut out all that stuff that is just like, you're now back in the lane of controlling.

Right? So boundaries are healthy, yes. But when they are used euphemistically for walls and barriers and crevices, then we're just perpetuating the same trauma over and over again. When we truly evolve, it means, it comes with it. Unconditional self acceptance. Unconditional self acceptance comes with it. An acceptance of our shadow. Right? So when you accept your own shadow now, you see it in everyone around you, and you have the same compassion. So truly evolved human beings who are working on themselves, they are actually the most aware of their shadows, right? So when parents stand up in audiences and tell me, doctor, you know, I'm a conscious parent, I go, oh, you poor thing. Because there is no such thing as a label, right? Consciousness is a calling. It's a striving, it's a quest, it's a daily cultivation. And it's not a journey of perfection. It's not a destination. It is actually the most grueling process of constantly looking at your florid ego in its face.

Well, you know, I'll share with you as you're listening to Doctor Shefali and I, that I am so excited that my adult daughters are both in therapy.

Yes.

Because I've said to them, please, like, talk about all the things I did wrong, please, like, let's heal the things that I did wrong. Tell me what patterns that I have that are not working for you. If you felt unseen or invalidated, if I was a control freak, if I was checked out, your experience is exactly right, and I can do better. And so, giving yourself permission to evolve, giving your children, your children, giving your parents, giving your partners the same permission.

But you know why you did that? Because you're releasing your desire, your need to be perfect. You're letting it go. You're like, I've smashed it. I can see that it's not going to work. I need to let it go. Now. That humility, even though it takes some defacing of your pride. Doesn't it bring about a liberation?

Absolutely.

Because you're like, who said I was perfect? So when we can enter that humility of seeing your shadows, seeing your limitations, you actually free your children. Because your children knew all along it wasn't them. They knew we were the crazy ones, but we were acting like it was them. So when we now own our crazy children are like, hallelujah. I don't need you to be perfect. I'm okay being imperfect. You were the one who thought you needed to be the perfect parent. I didn't put that on you, mommy. You put that on yourself because you were still hungry for worth from your childhood and you put it on me.

I can't wait to hear what you think and your reaction and your relationships are because I know that people are going to send this episode to their parents, they're going to send it to their kids, they're going to send it to their friends. How do we do this? We started to talk about the steps because as somebody's listening to doctor Shefali and they're thinking, I want this.

Yes.

I don't want to be a control freak. I don't want to have my ego tied to micromanaging everything. I can see how my need to control is blowing up in my face with my kids, with my parents, with my partners. How do you start to let go of control? Because I think we control because it's the way that we feel better. We don't feel anxious like we're trying to. Like, one of the reasons why I control is because I'm so worried something's gonna happen to my kids. I'm so worried about them. And how do you start?

Well, it's really a practice and it takes work. And I know parents don't want to hear that. They want the one two three, but I wrote the one two three in this book called the parenting math because parents were asking me for the steps. But really the steps are about, number one, uncovering your own childhood conditioning. You've got to do the work. You've got to go back and understand how you are carrying your internal mother, how you've internalized your mother and your father. Sorry, you have to do that work. So you work with a coach, a therapist. And the second thing, which I teach is you have to awaken to really what life is about. And what life is about, in a very simple way, is the present moment, the impermanence and fragility of death and the absolute relinquishment of control over ourselves or another human being.

So many people remarked about the openness that you guys have all displayed on various episodes of this podcast. And do you personally think that you have a very open relationship with me and dad? Or how would you describe the type of relationship that you have with dad and I? So I. Why don't you go first.

To answer the question point blank? Yes, definitely. Very open. I tell them almost everything. And that being said, I am. I consider myself extremely open. I tell them anything from work to friend problems, to boyfriend issues, etcetera. But I think that I am actually the least open when now looking to my two right or the my siblings, simply because I. I think I choose what I share with them. And that is a lot, but not every single detail which others can speak to.

Guilty.

Okay, now you're up.

Why do you share stuff with us?

I think that growing up, we always had a very open relationship. And I think one of the core things that you both instilled in all of us is you will never, ever get in trouble for telling the truth. If we were telling you completely upfront and honestly what we were doing, where we were going, who we were going with, or in general, like, what is going on in our lives, then regardless of what it was, we would never be punished for that. And I will always remember I had an incident with my first time drinking. I drank a whole handle of vodka, and I'm the oldest, so that was my first rodeo. And I woke up in the morning and I was petrified, puke all over myself, sleeping on the window bench. I thought I was just toast. Like, I thought I was dead meat. I was so scared. And then we all sat down on the screened in porch, and they both said to me, we will never punish you for something that we also did as kids. And as long as you are open and honest about that, pretty much opens the door.

Wild.

Oh, yeah, baby. I was running with gas after that. But after you guys said that, I just felt so much more at ease. And my punishment that day was actually going to lacrosse tryout, which I yacked at several times. But. But then I looked at my other friends who would get in trouble and for drinking or for doing things we weren't allowed to, and they would immediately be grounded, they'd immediately have to stay home. They were restricted from alcohol. They were whatever. And that just kind of put a huge barrier between, I think, them and their parents, which was just, let's be sneaky, let's steal, let's sneak out, let's go to parties and lie about where we are. When I think from very early on, you both were very vocal about, as long as you are honest, you will not be get in trouble. And I think that that just eliminated the barrier between us completely.

I think a lot of parents say that. I think that is every parent's throwaway line. Hey, as long as you tell me the truth, you're not gonna get in trouble. As long as you call me, you're not getting in trouble. And then in the tsunami of emotions when you get the call that your kid is blacked out or there's been a huge party or the police showed up or whatever else, most parents freak out and then ground or punish.

Mm hmm.

No, I disagree. I disagree. For you to say that every parent out there just makes a blanket statement that says, just tell us the truth, and you'll be fine. Like, no way that. That therein lies. I think one of the secrets, the keys to the kingdom, is inviting that truth telling, because most people don't.

Okay, well, that agree.

I agree.

I actually don't think that any of my friends. I mean, I think. I think that, like, it was unspoken in a lot of my friends households growing up that, like, if you tell us the truth, you won't get in trouble. But, like, it wasn't actually, like, there was a difference between what they were saying and what they were doing in terms of the parents. Like, the parents want you to tell the truth, but they're still gonna punish you. You guys want us to tell the truth, but you're not gonna punish us. Like, you actually do what you say you're gonna do as parents.

But did you, Mel? Is that what your parents told you? Yeah. See, I didn't get. I didn't get that from my parents. I just got the. The idea that it takes. The message to me was it takes.

A long time to build trust, and.

It takes 2 seconds to shatter the trust, which is sort of infers that tell the truth, and you're not gonna blow up relationships or leave people feeling.

Sort of lost inside of the dynamic.

Between the two of you. Like, my number one goal as your parent in our relationship building was to get you to want to come and talk to me and dad about important topics instead of going to your dipshit friends. And I always thought, if you're 13, 1415, or 16, way better to talk through something you're thinking about or worried about or, you know, wanting to try and all that stuff with adults who will listen to you than going to other 1415 or 16 year olds that don't know what the hell they're doing.

I agree with that. And this was, like, sort of going to be my whole point about, like, why I also have such an open relationship with my parents. Arguably too open.

Definitely too open.

Yeah. Don't take notes from me. I turned out fine.

Sort of.

But what I was gonna say is, you were just saying, like, it's so much better for kids at that age to, like, go to their parents who will listen to them rather than their dipshit friends. But, like, that's the issue, is that parents don't listen. And what I was gonna say, my whole point is that there's a difference between, like, I think that, like, my definition of listen as, like, you guys have defined what listen means to me, and it's like, internalizing what we're saying. Like, parents all around the world can just listen to their kid be like, I really want to go to this party tonight. Like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Or, like, can I please, like, whatever it may be, oh, I got too drunk at this party, or, oh, I slept with someone before I was ready. Like, there's a difference between hearing what they're saying and actually listening and internalizing how it's making them feel. Like, I feel like every time we told you guys something as kids, you would actually, like, empathize with us and hear us and internalize it. And in doing that, you were able to, like, loosen the reins a little bit and let us fuck up and let us fail and let us.

And instead of being like, you're stupid, you're like, you're being punished. That was dumb. You were like, let's talk about it. How is it making you feel?

So you're saying in these conversations that we were having as you were growing up, you had that sense of feeling heard inside of.

Yes, absolutely. Oh, my dad is balling. I hate when you cry. I really wasn't planning on this, but.

No, totally. Like, I feel like most kids don't talk to their parents because their parents don't hear them and don't listen to them, so why would they?

I think a lot of my friends, for example, whenever they would want to go on a trip or go to a party or do anything they want to do, and they already knew in the back of their head that their parents didn't want them to, or we're gonna say no, they go into the conversation to talk about that and express how they're feeling. And as a kid, I think we all come from the exact same scenario where we want to explain why we want to go to this thing or go to this trip or why we should be able to do this, etcetera. But on the other end, the parents, like, like Kendall said, may be listening, but they already have an answer in the back of their head. Their mind is made up. There's no room for conversation or changing. I think that when kids go into conversations with parents who immediately make up their mind, do not allow for any sort of alterations or changes to the plan, then you're just set up for failure, because then it just turns into sneakiness and hatred and all that stuff. Yeah. Resentment. And so, I don't know.

I think that I'm looking for a word, but. Oh, I mean, I think this is also a little bit of. I mean, I think parents and children should note, obviously be equal. Like, there's parents need to have a little bit of authority over children. But I think what I really appreciated most in a lot. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Okay. And. But I think that, like, at the end of the day, like, I always felt as a child, like, you're equal. And I always felt like you guys.

What does that mean? Because I know. Because I don't think dad and I ever bought into the parenting philosophy of being your friends. What? What dad and I, at least if I had to summarize the way that we think about parenting is. I think about parenting as though our job is to help you figure out who you are. And that means learning how to think through decisions, learning how to come to terms with your own values, learning the weight of the consequences of decisions, and that the whole point of parenting is for you to grow up and leave and go find somebody that you love as much as dad and I love one another and go build a family and that. And to become more of who you are. And so we were always focused on connection first, correction, dead last.

I feel like I'm so open because you guys were so open with me. Like, I feel like I could go.

To you guys, I could ask you.

Guys something about your life, and you'd tell me. There was nothing that you really hid from me. Maybe there was. Or maybe I was just so young.

That I didn't really ask, but you were very open, which was super nice.

And I also felt like you guys.

Had my back, like, 100% of the time, no matter what.

For example, I went to camp for.

A month and I got bullied.

And so my mom found out about it, and she, like, refused to let me stay there.

So she took me out a week early, which felt really nice because it.

Showed that she cared about how I.

Was feeling, and she understood that and she acted upon it, which was really helpful for me.

And it showed that she has my back, and she continued to show me.

That throughout the rest of my life.

Seeking connection with you guys required us to learn how to listen. It required us to learn how to hear your points of view, even though they were often stupid or immature or dangerous or irrational or emotional or irritating, but still to respect you enough to listen. And no, and oftentimes your ideas were great and we would listen and acquiesce. But the. I think you also had a sense of safety because we always had guardrails. There's nothing you're going to do that's dangerous. There's nothing we're going to allow you to do that is self destructive or destructive to other people. There is nothing that we're going to ever allow you to do that could be a situation that is deadly or discriminatory against people. And so there were guardrails, and there are guardrails that we're very, very intense about.

But I think that your guardrails are, like, around morals and, like, who we are as human beings, not behavioral.

Can you give an example?

Be a kind person, hold the door for people, say thank you, ask the waiter's name. Like, those kinds of things are like, unspoken guardrails, whereas I feel like other parents put up guardrails that are, like, no drinking on the weekends. Like, you never put up guardrails that were, like, activities or experiences or things we do. It's how we are. Within those experiences are where the guardrails are.

What do most parents get wrong? Like, what are some don'ts that you've seen either dad and I do or other parents do?

Let your kids figure it out themselves.

Yes. Let their kid, like, never with drinking and driving.

Well, yeah, yeah, obviously. Honestly, if somebody is, like, gateway drugging their way into heroin or cocaine or becoming an alcoholic at a young age, I can bet you that there is a massive lack of love and appreciation and being heard and being seen in their household. It's probably coming from their parents. Hate to call you guys out, but it's probably coming from their parents. And you know what? Instead of the, like, yeah. You find out that they're doing cocaine. That's terrifying you. Like, that's. I can't even imagine what that's like as a parent. But instead of seeing that and having some rash, crazy reaction about, like, we're throwing all this out. We're putting you into this. We're putting you into therapy. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Blah, blah, blah, blah.

What I think would be more impactful is, like, sitting their kid down and being like, can we have it? Like, you're not. Here's a punishment. You're not leaving this table until we actually talk this through. Because there's got to be a lot more deep seated issues than just this bag of white powder. Like, I think that the issue is that, like, parents are just so quick to be, like, they're so afraid of it becoming a bigger issue that they just band aid on a bullet wound and just, like, put them into it when, like, the real issue is the deep seated hurt that the kid is feeling and the love that they're not getting.

But I also want to add, though, that, like, for a lot of people, the parents sitting down to have that conversation, if the parent is not the actual person to talk to, then a licensed therapist is. And so it's nothing but searching the house to get rid of all the coke and the weed to make sure they don't have any cause. I can assure you, we're smart. We can find it, like, anywhere.

I want to start with a particular post that you put on social media that went crazy viral and it really struck a nerve for me. And you posted this thing where you said at 32 years old, I realized I was a child in an adult body. And this just hit deep for so many people. What did you mean?

Thank you for calling out that post. I think for a lot of us, that can be really challenging to hear that about ourselves. And for me, if I'm speaking honestly, it was very challenging to come to that awareness. And what I meant was mainly around my emotions and the way that I hadn't learned, of course, in early childhood to tolerate, to navigate, to be able to process my emotions. And in many ways, and I use this language, I think this is the part that becomes difficult, is in a lot of ways, I was very emotionally immature in the way that I handled the frustrations, the difficulties and the stresses of life. Because the reality for me, as I think is the case, which is, I think, why it resonates force with so many of us, is that so few of us, for many different reasons, which I'm sure we'll dive into, many of which today, we didn't have those safe environments. We didn't have those emotionally attuned caregivers who themselves learned how to navigate their own emotions. So, I mean, needless to say, parenting is a large, large task in and of itself. And, you know, when we don't have that safety and we don't have someone modeling, mirroring, attuning to us emotionally, what we do then appear is like a child in an adult body.

I want to take a step back because for those of you who have not read Doctor Nicole's New York Times number one bestselling book, which is a game changer, how to do the work, or you don't follow her online like millions and millions and millions of people do. Can you tell everybody what your life looked like at the age of 32? Because when you talk about emotional immaturity, it's not like you were running down the street naked, taking a baseball bat to the side of a wall, like kind of rambling gobbledygook. You were high, functionally high functioning and successful. So we just give everybody, like, what does life for Doctor Nicole at 32 look like when you have this realization that, holy shit, I can't process my emotions maturely?

Yeah. And I'll be the first to say I wasn't able to even admit that or even have that language for what was going on at the time. What I did know was that I had finally arrived, or so I thought, to the end of all of this achievement based to do list. To speak to your point, I wasn't dysfunctional in the very traditional sense. In a lot of ways. I had the successful life, or at least appearance of life around me. I was in a partnership, a committed partnership. I had a successful practice. After achieving my PhD, I was surrounded by a network of supportive individuals. I was living in the city that I chose to live in. Everything seemingly on the outside was reflecting this idea that I should feel good, or at least better than I was. I think, as a lot of us do. My first feeling was a really low, disempowered lack of fulfillment and shame, because again, as I looked around, I kept almost telling myself, well, what is wrong with you, Nicole? Why aren't you, you know, feeling good about yourself? Why aren't you feeling fulfilled? Why aren't you feeling even connected to this life that you created?

So not having the awareness of why I was struggling right alongside with at that point, the clients that I had been working with week after week, month after month, I kept wondering, you know, feeling as a disempowered then clinician in the room, what is wrong? Why are so many of us stuck, those of us who even have access to supportive individuals like myself, in a therapeutic environment? Why is the report I'm getting week after week, not that I'm getting better, but that I'm getting more and more frustrated, more and more shameful, more and more stuck in these patterns. And for me, it really began with exploring, you know, what is keeping so many of us stuck. And for me, I landed on the answer being all of the conditioning, oftentimes very stress based, very trauma based conditioning that, you know, was emblematic of the childhoods that most of us have grown up in that were creating habits and patterns that no matter how much insight, how much awareness that we had, were keeping us disconnected from ourselves, from our life and from our relationships.

So as you are talking and somebody's listening intently, going, wait a minute, is there a different way to experience life? You know, because adulthood, it's so familiar sounding that you check all the boxes, Ivy League degree, you know, you're practicing psychologist, you are successful on the outside, you're surrounded by all these people and you're having this internal crisis and disconnect where you're going, why am I not happy? What is wrong with me? What more could there be? How can I not figure this out? I am sure most everybody listening can relate to this. And so we're going to get into what you did. But if somebody is going, that's me, that's me right now, what is something, Doctor Nicole, that you want to tell them right now about what this means? If you're experiencing this disconnection from what your life is like today and what you're feeling inside, you know, speaking from.

The perspective of having been that person, I mean, as I, you know, was entering my thirties, I convinced myself because I too saw similar, you know, complaints. I heard similar complaints and I almost gaslit myself in a lot of ways with this idea like you're sharing mallow. This must be just what adulthood is. This might just be the circumstances of the, you know, environments, very unnatural. I was living in a city, my myself, that many of us are living. And it took me becoming conscious again of the very real impact of these habits and patterns to create just that little bit of space. So what I want to offer to anyone who's resonating and has that embedded belief that this is just what life is about, or maybe a more problematic belief, I think, for ourselves is maybe this is just what my life is meant to be about. Maybe there's something inherently wrong with me, you know, that is translating to this lack of fulfillment, this overwhelming stress or whatever it might be for you. And so very much speaking from that person as well, I thought that something was just off about me.

I want to share the hope of creating that space of really, and you'll often hear me break down. As far as I see, the process of creating change into two major steps. And the first step, I will always note, is becoming conscious. And when we become conscious of how habitual, how patterned we are as individuals, then some of us can gift us with that little bit of space that then allows us to take that next step, which is beginning to make new choices outside of those old ingrained habits, to then be able to experience ourself differently. And I'm really being intentional with that because again, I think the best, you know, the best shifting of beliefs is when I, we ourselves begin to create change, begin to experience life differently. Many of us, I'm sure, have listened to motivational speakers who have said, oh, you can do this, you know, come on this side of. Of life, of change, and it really isn't. And again, speaking from my own experience of this, we don't believe it until we do it. But when we do become conscious, or as we begin to become conscious, we can gift ourself with that space, of course, does not happen overnight, but over time, we can begin to then make new choices, relieving ourself of that shame, that belief that this is just what life is all about and.

Or this is what my life is all about.

Well, this is one of the reasons why I love you so much. Not only because you've made a huge difference in my life. And I'm going to try to take a highlighter and call out a couple of those things that you have said that were complete paradigm shifters for me and helped me achieve level up moments in my own healing. And so I want to just. I want to make sure everybody heard something, which is even the awareness that you feel stuck, even the awareness that something is off, even the awareness that this isn't working is great news, because if I'm hearing you correctly, being frustrated or feeling discombobulated in your body about your life, that is the consciousness that you're talking about.

Yes, 100%. I mean, anything that we can attune to feeling, even the lack of. Because I know for a lot of us, we feel numb. For me, that was very much part of my journey, is feeling apathetic. Not actually feeling much of anything, though, to speak to your very beautiful celebration of that awareness. The moment we start to say, okay, feel anything, or I feel so depressed, or whatever it is that I do feel when I am able to see or witness that's what consciousness means for me. And honestly acknowledge that that's the case for my circumstances. Then we are actually beginning the process of creating change.

Yes, this is going on right now in real time in my life, because we were just having dinner last night for my husband's birthday. And our daughter has asked my husband, when do you feel most alive? What experiences make you feel most alive? And after Chris answered, I turned her and I said, I've heard you say that word alive a number of times. Where is that coming from? And she said, well, it's because I don't feel that alive in my life right now. And I think when you have those insights, you're right to go, you know, I was celebratory. Cause I'm trying to highlight the fact that most of us react to that insight, that, holy shit, I don't feel excited by my life. I don't feel like myself. I don't feel alive. It's scary when you have that moment of consciousness.

It's incredibly scary, you know, feeling, as many of us do when we're on that blind autopilot, especially if our autopilot is driven by a state of nervous system disconnection. I often connect many of the conversations, many of the habits and patterns that we're beginning to talk about now back to our physiological body. And there actually is a state of shutdown that many of us. I found myself living in, that created. And it wasn't to say, like, we were going back to the beginning, right? I was still marching through life, you know, checking endless boxes of to do list. It wasn't that I was apathetic sitting on a couch, though. So for some of us, that's how it presents. We don't feel motivated. We procrastinate. We actually can't get up and do much of anything, though some of us are still able to continue to literally just live life going through the motions. And our emotions are what makes us a human. So, feeling very much, I talk about my spaceship that I was living on, the spaceship of disconnection that, again, began for me in childhood, does create this feeling, this embodied existence of living like a robot.

So when we rob ourself of our emotional experience of life, we're robbing ourself, in my opinion, of life itself. But again, as often is the case, there are reasons embedded in our mind, in our body, that have created that experience, even of that distance, that disconnect, that apathy, that lack of motivation, that procrastination, whatever it is, that isn't a reflection of who you really are, what is meant for you in life. But again, is an adaptive coping mechanism, usually around your earliest environments or circumstances.

Wow. Totally. Because if you tell them not to do it, they'll do it. But if you ask them a million questions, they'll come solve their own problems. Yes. I had five kids in elementary school. Five. How old are your kids? Like, how far apartheid. They've in six years. Five and six years. So right now. Right now we have 1514, 1210. And now. Wait, hold on. 1514, 1210. And you basically got almost four teenagers. And they're so, like, major door slamming. No, no, no. They're awesome. We. What? Okay. That's the advice that I want. Okay, wait a minute. So please, Sunny, tell. How do you raise daughters to not slam doors? Please talk to me.

I can answer this, too.

He laughs all the time. Don't laugh.

Don't laugh.

I make him cry more. Sonny, I've been. It's just entertaining me. Right?

Like, I don't understand these, these things that go in the household is. I've been asked to leave certain conversations.

Like, you're not helping. We call it hormones, by the way. That's why he doesn't understand.

But here, here's, here's what's been amazing from an outsider looking into what she.

Does as a mother with the four.

Daughters is she's involved, she's a part of their lives. She didn't start to try to communicate.

When they were 14 and slamming those doors. It's true.

Open door, wide open conversation. People are like, what?

We get the question all the time, how do you have five kids? What do you, do you have four.

Teenagers over communicate, which does an unbelievable.

Job at love them, be part of their lives and accept them for who they are. That's the biggest thing. We're all individuals. What's your parenting style? We have five.

Yeah, we have five.

I have this. We have the same. It sounds like we have the same parenting style. You guys and Chris, you know, my husband and I, and that is that we decided very early on it's not our job to create mini me's. It's our job to help our kids figure out who they are and how to make decisions they can live with. That means them making lots of mistakes. And for us, it's meant creating a safe space to talk about the scary stuff like drugs and sex. And as a parent, not judging, but asking questions, then being like, what do you think about that? And, like, modeling. How do you think through something and always ask questions don't say anything. Just ask questions and help them think it through themselves. Totally. Because if you tell them not to do it, they'll do it. But if you ask them a million questions, they'll come solve their own problems. Yes, but back to the door slamming. We have issues with clothes borrowing. Well, it's not borrowing, it's stealing. So the 17 will go into this 19 year old's room and grab the clothes, and the next thing you know.

Eruption. Yes. Our kids all share because I'm the same size as my next three daughters. Like, I'm a tighter medium. Oh, see, you're lucky. What would you do in my case, where you got one that's like, you know, the size of leg and the other one, that's normal. So let them sort it out because it's not my job to intervene in their relationship. It's their job to figure it out.

Sometimes I do say this.

If they're trying to communicate and somebody's getting mad, I'll say, are you hearing what they're saying? They're saying, this is hurting my feelings. When you say that, I don't like it. And they're like, yeah, yeah, mom, I hear them, but it's like, I like that. If I see they're not hearing each.

Other, that's when I step in and.

Say, are you hearing this? You're not. I know you're trying to save. I don't think you're communicating. Well, what's a better way to say that?

That's the only time I intervene.

Yeah, that's actually genius, because you're asking a question is what? Which is what we do. But see, I've gotten so, like, I'm washing my hands of this. Yeah, it's the same fight over and over again. But if I were to say, wait a minute, you're not hearing her and you're not hearing, what's the issue really about if it keeps happening, what is it really about? It's not really about the clothes. Yeah. It's about the power struggle between them and the fact that one of them doesn't respect the other. Boom.

What are some of the lessons that you do teach your kids that you've learned from the things that you teach on stage or from your book? Are there certain lessons that you pour into them?

Oh, yeah. So I. I haven't written a book about parenting, but I'm going to. I have.

I'm definitely going to need that one day. One day.

I don't believe that you own your children, that you're in control of your children, that you are even above your children. I believe that parenting is one of the biggest responsibilities on the planet, because what you're doing is you're raising an individual.

Yeah.

The idea of parenting is not to raise people that live in this house for the rest of their lives and turn out to be carbon copies of me and my husband, Chris. The idea is to raise individuals that grow up having the capability to discover who they are, to make decisions, to think critically, to have opinions, to be kind to people. And so it's a very difficult parenting philosophy because it means you're not dictating what's happening, you're guiding what's happening. Now, if something's dangerous, if it's destructive, if it's immoral, if it's illegal, I get final say. I tell you what to think. And do you live in my house or our house, Chris? In my house. And so you still have to make your bed. You still have to do your laundry. You still have to abide by the rules of the house. But we are teaching our kids to think for themselves. We're teaching them how to question authority. We're teaching them how to take responsibility for their actions. And so what happens is, you know, just last night we had a. We had a major discussion with our 17 year old because she's going to be a senior in high school, right?

We just got back from a family trip next week, field hockey starts and schools off, and senior year has begun, and this is the week for college applications, period. This is it. And she didn't want to spend all day, every day going into the library, sitting down and working on the things she needed to do. And we got into this back and forth because we have trained her to ask why, and we have trained her to state her opinion, and we have taught her to raise her voice and to question when things don't align with either her expectations or her values. Not entitled, just fully responsible for what she's doing, when she's doing it and thinking through. And of course, we won the argument, and of course, she's sitting at the library right now. But having her go and explain to us, well, I don't want to be there all day because I haven't seen my friends all summer, because I've been working and because I've been a counselor, and this is the one. And that's a valid concern for an 18 year old. So we went back and forth about the longer term issue and the fact that in life, you have to make long term decisions, which means you're going to be pissed off in the short term.

And then we said to her, please tell us what would you rather? Would you rather spend this week and be with your friends and be a complete freak for the next three months because school started and you're not done with the most stressful thing you've ever done in your entire life, which is college application? Or would you rather sit your ass at the library, get this done and have the entire fall of your senior year to play with your friends? And you're the only kid that's not stressed out because your applications are done.

You choose right, short term plan for long term pleasure.

But see, the choice was hers. But we had the conversation about cause and effect and most parents are like, don't do as I say, don't do as I do, do as I say. And then they show you a completely different example. And they also say, because I said so. And if you say because I said so, you're not teaching your kids cause and effect. You're teaching them I'm right, you're wrong. And that's why most kids are like this the second they get to college.

Yeah. So we're about to get in with Melanore and her philosophy on how she makes decisions in her life. This is really important because literally your entire life is made up of decisions, right? And it all is what's going to set you up for either success or failure. And at the end of the day, I'm a huge component of the three C's choices. Chances change. You have to make a choice to take a chance on your life or we are never going to see a change. But we're going to go deeper than that. Mel's going to discuss what she calls outcome thinking, how she makes her choices, how she really decides if it's right or wrong for her. And it's something that I think you can really use as a framework to make some of the most important decisions in your life.

And the third takeaway is one of my biggest philosophies as a leader and just the way that I think I am what I call an outcome thinker. So anytime I need to make a decision, I'm always thinking about the outcome and the outcome is what guides me on what to do.

How much do you balance in making a decision, the outcome thinking and the really playing that out compared to your intuition?

Yeah, it's a great question. So any decision can be divided into what do I need to do versus how and when do I need to do it for the what? That is intuition. And by intuition, I use the word energy. And the way to answer any question for yourself personally that you don't immediately know the answer to is to ask this question, does it energize and expand my life or does it shrink it? If it energizes and expands your life, the answer is, hell, yes, you should absolutely do it. That is one what you should do. If the decision shrinks you or it deflates you, then the answer is hell no, you should not do it. This is an incredible tool to use in deal making, by the way, because, you know, I'm in the middle of negotiating a massive media deal at the moment, and it's something I've always wanted to do. And when you're negotiating for some. Something you really want, whether it's somebody that you're dating or, you know, it's a salary or whatever, it may, in my case, it's a massive media deal. You can get really ego driven. Right?

Right.

You can start to get very attached to the deal or to the person or to the whatever, but you have to stop and ask yourself, is this deal or this person actually expanding?

Right.

And energizing, or are there aspects of it that deplete and shrink me? And if there's any aspect of it that depletes and shrinks, you either have to change that aspect of the deal or the relationship structure, or you have to say, no, period. If you decide that, yeah, it energizes me, and I really want to do it, then that's what you want next. You. You've got to think about the outcome, which is how and when you make it happen.

Right?

Does that make sense?

Yeah, 100%.

Cool.

At what point did you find your purpose? Because, like, for me, you know, I'm an entrepreneur for, like, 15 years, and most of my career, I chased the money. I. Because of my upbringing. You talked a lot about, like, how we were conditioned growing up, and I always felt I had something to prove to my dad. You know, I always, you know, was.

He really successful or why? No.

You know, he just. He wanted me to. He wanted me to go to Princeton. He wanted me to be this smart kid. He wanted me to play basketball. You know, he wanted me to. You know, he worked at Prudential, and that was the first company I knew of. And he would just always talk about prudential, you know, and how successful that was and how he just. He wanted that for me. He wanted me to become successful when I become highly educated. He wanted me to become the best in my class, he wanted me to make high honorable. Did you know? But I tried, you know, I always.

Was trying to prove, or was there a little bit of you resented the pressure and so you acted out and didn't do it because clearly, I mean, come on, you found it elite daily. Everything you invest in goes and is a huge success. You're a really smart guy when you want to put the fucking work in. And so there was an aspect about your personality that I already know that you don't like being told what to do.

Yes. Oh, forget it. If I feel like I'm put into a box, I'll freak out. Like I need that freedom, that flexibility, for sure.

Yes. And so one of the things for you to think about personally and as an entrepreneur is that your dad gave you the greatest gift in the world. Because when you realize anytime that you're in a box, that felt like what it was like to be with your dad because he had aspirations for you that looked a certain way. This not about making your dad right or wrong.

Right.

It's about what you respond to energetically as a human being.

Right.

No deal that you ever do and no relationship that you are ever in will ever work if you feel like somebody is setting the expectations for you, full stop.

Yeah.

So it's not that like the new story for you, the what happened is your dad had high aspirations, you didn't achieve them. So you as a kid started telling yourself a story that you gotta prove something to your dad. Right? What I'm here to tell you is the new chapter for you is recognizing that what you learn from your father is that you're successful when you define the expectations for yourself. And, but for your dad, you wouldn't learn that.

Yeah, no, it's so true. It took me so long to realize that. I can't even tell you how many times I, you know, I really felt I had to prove something to him because I didn't meet those other expectations. And I finally, finally, I mean, it just took me to getting to my thirties to realize I don't have anything to prove and that I defined what success really is for me in my life and what makes me happy. And he loves me no matter what. You know, both my parents do. And I'm blessed for the mentorship that he gave me as well as my mother. But I feel that in my early twenties, when I first felt that school wasn't for me and I decided to drop that my first semester, I went all in to trying to figure out the Internet and the online business and all those things. You know, I chased the money for a really, really long time, and I always was creative. I had, I loved creating content and marketing and all those things, but I don't think I ever really thought about, like, my purpose. And I think that a lot of us in our twenties, you know, we really don't.

But I think now there's so much content on social media now.

So here's the thing. I think you should change the. What energizes you? Everyone talks about passion, legacy, purpose. The one word to pay attention to is energy.

I love that.

That's it. Let's simplify this, okay? So whatever energizes you naturally expands you, feels like possibility is exciting to do. It may be scary, that doesn't matter. It has to do with how it makes you feel.

Right?

When you were in your twenties, money made you feel good. It expanded you. It energized you. Chasing the money, that was the game. That was your passion. That was your. There's nothing fucking wrong with that. Nothing wrong with that. And I particularly want to say that to the women that are watching.

Yeah. Hell yeah.

Because it is socialized into women not to chase success like that, not to go after the money. And so if what energizes you is amassing wealth, go for it. But what happened, and the reason why I say that is because people talk about the word passion or purpose, and the truth is it's not a person, place, or a thing. It's not. It is the feeling of being expanded and energized.

Right.

If you're pursuing your path, it means that you wake up every day and are energized. So instead of trying to think, what's my purpose? What's my passion? What's my purpose? What's my passion? Fuck, I don't know.

Yeah.

Instead of thinking like that, I want you instead to ask yourself, what's, what could I do today that would energize me? What energizes me? If it's making money, figure out how to make money. If it is making a difference, figure out how to make a difference. It could be in any single shape or form. But if it energizes you, that's what you need to follow. And what happens is that passion also because it's energy, it dissipates over time, because when you first start making money, it's fucking thrilling. Thrilling. There is nothing, nothing more exhilarating than making your first million.

Yeah.

Nothing more exhilarating. But what happens is once you learn how to do something once, you can do it over and over again. And so it starts to become routine.

Yeah.

Which means it's no longer energizing.

Right.

Which is why every entrepreneur out there goes through the mode of chasing the money. And then you hit the money that you need to make, then you're like, I'm not fulfilled. Everybody does.

Yeah.

And it's because you were energized by the money and now you're not.

Yeah.

Now you got to be energized by the next thing.

Yeah.

And for you, it's clearly service. It's clearly making a difference. It's empowering others. And so when I look back on my trajectory.

Yeah.

My. The thing that energizes me is making people feel like they matter.

Yeah.

It's that simple. This is like a horrible story because it makes me feel like the world's worst parent. And I'll tell it to you. So our son, we found out that he had, like, profound dyslexia. He ends up going to a school for kids with language based learning styles. And then he was going to transfer back to, like a, you know, like a regular public school in the 7th grade. And at this time, he had blue hair. He loved the. Loves the gamer ninja. He had blue. His blue hair was so cool. I love it. And as we were nearing him starting this new school, I started to get worried. I started to get worried that if he shows up at a new school in the 7th grade with blue hair, that he would get picked on and he would get bullied. And so I started to let my worries literally bubble over. And I started to say to him, hey, you want to get a haircut before school? Hey, do you think we should cut the tips off? Hey, you know, what do you think about the blue hair?

Hey.

Like, I started to just nudge him and nudge him. And then, of course, our older daughters, his older sisters, pile on and like, dude, you're not going to roll into that school with blue hair. It's not like you're a star lacrosse player. You know, you do musical theater and you play on the girls field hockey team. I think you might want to cut your blue hair off, buddy. You know, like, they literally. And we're not like, it's literally out of. Please, dear God. He had just been bullied at a camp. Don't let him roll into a school and have this happen again. It was all out of love. And ultimately, a couple days before school, Oak goes, you know, I think I want to get my hair cut. He acquiesces and upon reflection, here's what I realized. We meant well, but parenting styles are often about compliance, and they're often driven by your ego and your desire to protect your kid or not have that kid or whatever. And so you end up sending these messages either overtly, you're not doing musical theater because of your own bullshit, or you send these messages very. What's the other word?

Subtly or lot? So subtly because you're worried, you're protecting them. You're concerned because you don't understand them. And the message that I realized now that I was sending to him is, I'm not accepting you for who you are. And until you do as I say, that's when I'll like you. Until you look how I want you to look or do the activities that I want you to do. That's when you're okay. But who you are is not okay. And you got to change in order to get my approval. And, you see, I think that's the heart of where we break this relationship with ourselves. We start to tell ourselves there's something wrong with me as I am. And in order to fit into this group or in order to make my mother happy or in order to get my dad to stop griping at me, I have to be somebody I'm not. We become our own sorting hat as a means to protect ourselves from criticism, as a means to comply and make everybody feel okay and as a means to fit in with people. And that's where it begins. And that's why I'm so passionate about this, because I feel like if you can stand in front of a mirror and see your blue hair and high five it, it doesn't fucking matter what anybody else says, including your mother.

And when you're a kid, you didn't have a choice. You didn't. You were just doing what you needed to do to get by. And it's a very tame story, but the truth is, and there are a lot of teachers that understand that and a lot of your listeners that understand this, there are kids who can't reveal their true identity because it's not safe for them to do so in their homes or in their schools. And so when you're a kid, you often don't have a choice. But there's a fundamental flaw in human wiring, which is when that kind of bullshit happens to you, no human being who's a child has the life perspective or experience or the brain wiring to be objective and go, these freaking adults are screwed up, man. Somebody call the police. You know if this kid's bullying me. I bet his dad's an asshole. Like you have no ability. So every one of us goes, there's something wrong with me. There's something wrong with me. And in order to get the love and the likes and to be seen and supported for who I am, I gotta hide. I gotta change.

I can't be myself. And that's where it begins. Hey, it's Mel. Thank you so much for being here. If you enjoyed that video, by God, please subscribe because I don't want you to miss a thing. Thank you so much for being here. We've got so much amazing stuff coming. Thank you so much for sending this stuff to your friends and your family. I love you. We create these videos for you, so make sure you subscribe.