The single biggest takeaway from this 86-year-long study on adult development at Harvard is that a good life is made from good relationships. So let's focus on what makes for good relationships.

And let's start with what relationships do you need in order to have a good life?

Yeah. Okay. So there's a bedrock relationship type that everybody needs, which is who has my back? We asked our study members at one point, who could you call in the middle of the night if you were sick or scared? And Some people could list several people in their life. Some people couldn't list anybody. And some of those people were even married, and they didn't list their spouse. Wow. So we think that everybody needs one person in In my world, we call it a secure attachment to another person, where you feel like if I'm in trouble, that person would be there for me.

We've talked about it on this podcast as your 4:00 AM friend. Yeah. The person you can pick up the phone to at 4:00 in the morning, whether it's an emergency or you're just lonely and you need somebody to talk to. Yeah.

Why does secure attachment matter?

And what is it? How does it relate to happiness?

Secure attachment It refers to this idea that we all bond when we're babies, when we're tiny. We bond to caregivers. And that if the bonding goes well, we end up believing that we are lovable and that there's somebody there to love us. And that when we believe those things, we grow up happy and we grow up brave enough to explore the world. Because there's a home base we can come back to. Sometimes you'll You'll see on a playground, you'll see a parent with a two-year-old, and the two-year-old totdles off. And then at some point, they'll run back and they will grab the parents leg. It's sometimes called refueling, where they're reminded, Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Home base. And then they'll totdle off again. And then they'll run back for that momentary refueling. We think that that's something we need all the way through life. So how do I take a risk in my life? You may have someone in your life, maybe it's your spouse. And if you start to take a risk, like starting a new podcast, you might run it by him and say, What do you think? Do you think I could do this?

We need somebody to say, It's okay, and I'm here. Even if it doesn't go well, I've got your back.

I feel like that's the whole purpose of this podcast for the person listening.

Yeah. That it is a refueling. Yeah. That it's a place you can come back to, like a home base, and hear somebody he, who really means it say, You got this. Yes, you can.

You can. Exactly.

Well, Dr. Woldinger, I mean, talking about relationships and connecting with people, I already have a dozen people that I'm going to share this conversation with. And so let's take a quick pause, hear a word from our amazing sponsors because they allow us to bring this to you at zero cost. And while you're listening to our sponsors, take a minute and share this with somebody that you love. Because as you're learning, relationships are what create a good life. Dr. Wauwdinger and I will be waiting for you after a short break.

Stay with us.

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Do not miss out on the life you could be living. Let's make it happen together. Welcome back. It's your friend Mel. I'm so glad you're here. Thank you for sharing this conversation with the people that you love. I know it's going to make a huge difference. We're learning incredible insights from the 86-year-long Harvard Adult Development Study. We're here with Dr. Robert Wauwinger, who is breaking down the amazing insights from this research study and helping us live a good life. One of the findings of the study is that your relationships not only create a good life, but they actually make you healthier. They make you live longer. And so can you talk a little bit about how the connection that you feel with people in your life or even warm connections with strangers helps you manage stress?

Yes. I mean, there are a bunch of ways it does that. One is it makes us feel we're not alone. And feeling Feeling like we're not alone is vital. Feeling like someone will catch me if I fall. Feeling like we belong. It's one of the reasons why feeling part of a group matters. It's why being excluded from a group is so painful. We need to feel like we belong to feel good about ourselves. So even the small interactions we have, like when you go into the coffee shop and you have a nice exchange with the barista who makes you your latte, is that moment of connection where, Yeah, how's your day going? And sometimes people will actually tell you how their day... They'll really tell you, not just on automatic pilot. And that that helps us feel like we're with someone else and we belong, and we're seen by someone else.

Can you talk a little bit, based on the research, of why these small moments and these small conversations, even with a stranger, throughout the week really are an important part of living a good life?

What we know is that those conversations with strangers, again, help us feel connected, help us feel affirmed. They did an experiment in Chicago where there are a lot of commuters on the Chicago commuter rail system, and they assigned some people to do what they normally did on their commute, which is to look at their phones or read a book or whatever, listen to music. And the other people were assigned to talk to a stranger. And they asked people, How much do you think you're going to like this assignment? And the people who were told they had to talk to strangers thought they were not going to like it. When they completed their assignment, they were all asked, How do you feel now? The people who talked to strangers were way happier than the people who just sat and did what they normally did on their commute. It It seems that the connections we make are energizing much more often than not. That, yes, sometimes we can get into a conversation we don't like, but more often than not, it's like, Oh, it's nice. It's nice to say hello to you. It's nice to complain about the weather together, whatever it might be.

It just makes me feel like I belong.

This is something that I have always done. I always said it was because I grew up in the Midwest, just very friendly. I just am I'm always talking to people. I'm always saying hello to people. I'm the person that gets onto an elevator. We're staying at a hotel, and there is this big electrical conference there. And so we get into the elevator yesterday. It's probably 7:30 in the morning. It is full of, just imagine a group of seven electrical contractors. Get that picture in your mind. They're all standing there quiet. I'm like, Hey, guys, what's up? And first, silence. Who is this? Yeah. And I'm like, How's the conference? And they're like, Oh. And then one guy starts to talk And then all of a sudden, like popcorn popping. Next thing you know is we're going down the 17 floors, we're chatting it up, and I'm recommending the almond croissant at the bakery and the cafe. And so I love that. And I realize that it's not even about being extroverted because I'm really more of somebody I'm realizing who's more ambroverted. I'm extroverted at work, but then I'm literally a I never leave my house thing.

Yeah. But I am so energized by it.

Right. So how did you feel at the start of the elevator ride and then at the end? Can you compare?

A thousand %, I compare. As I got out of my hotel room alone and I'm checking my phone as I'm walking down the hallway, and then I'm turning right to walk down the other long hallway, and I'm still on my phone, and I'm thinking about my work day, and I'm trapped in my head, and then I walk over to the elevator, and then I hit the button, and I'm so So not present that I step on the first elevator that dings and it's going up, not down. So then I go up alone in the elevator for another seven floors, and then the first contractor walks in. And the second I looked at him and I said, Good morning.

And he smiled and said, Good morning.

I felt a little burst of energy. It was like I was immediately now in the moment and not on my phone. I was now present with another human being staying at the same hotel.

The door shut.

And as we start to descend, I turn, I'm like, Were you in the elevator with me yesterday morning? And he laughed. He's like, I don't think so. And I'm like, Well, you probably would have remembered it because I was yapping with everybody in the elevator. But there was somebody in there, and then the doors open, and now we're talking. And so then somebody else gets in. And I say, Good morning. And then the guy looks up, Good morning. And then we stand in, and then the doors open again. And so as everybody then starts to get on.

You were the greeter.

Yes.

But the energy in the elevator shifted. Nobody was on their phone, and we didn't solve the world's problems. But even just getting off the elevator.

And then as I asked her to have a great day, everybody.

And a couple of people, Hey, you too, thing. I was present.

I felt a little less alone. I felt a lift of life force energy from other people.

It shifted my mood, and it changed the day.

And what you've developed is a habit of doing that. And what is worth pointing out is that it's a habit we can develop, that even though it's a little awkward at first, if you just keep doing it, it'll become second nature. But I had to develop the habit.

Yeah. And I think it's It's really important to note something that this is really important because you underestimate how big of a difference it makes in your life. I'd like to offer one other example of how you can do this, because I know that for a lot of people, striking up a conversation or making small talk feels either scary or trivial, and it's not. What I've noticed about making this a habit of creating what you and the research have found are warm connections and these small social day-to-day interactions is that I notice that I would rather feel the way that I felt When I got off the elevator this morning at the hotel, having just chatted and saying good morning to people in the elevator, I'd rather feel that tiny little buzz and lift in my mood than And the way that I feel when I'm standing there lonely, looking at my phone, waiting for time to pass by, that I have realized that I have a choice about the experience in my day-to-day life that I can create for myself. And so another way to do this is you probably go to a coffee shop most weeks and simply complimenting somebody either on their nails or the shirt they're wearing or or how good the coffee looks.

And then after doing that three or four days in a row saying, Do you mind me asking what your first name is? I feel like I come in here every day. I see you. I don't even... I'd like to just... I'm Mel. And then here's a pro tip. When you turn around after you say their name, write their name in your contacts in the notes under the entry for the coffee shop. And as you pull in tomorrow morning, if you're like me, you will forget that Evan is the dude that is at the coffee shop at the hotel I stay at all the time in Boston. I now know his name. He knows my order. Yeah, yeah. Because I use this and I refresh my memory the first couple of times. So when I walk up, I'm like, oh, it's Evan, right? Oh, I'm Mel. It's great to see you again.

That that small thing, as crazy as it sounds, it makes me less lonely.

Absolutely.

And it makes the other person feel seen. Evan feels like you see him. You're not just doing some transactional thing. It's like, I see you, and I'm glad we're here together.

And here's the other piece, if I could take it to an even more profound level. Every one of us wants to create more meaning in life. And you want to feel like you have discovered this deeper sense of purpose. And I will go to my grave knowing that I feel that my life Life is more meaningful, and I am experiencing it at a deeper level, simply because of this one habit of forcing myself to create these warm, simple connections and conversations with strangers as I go about my day. It's almost like being tethered to a mooring that keeps you present in life, that keeps you able to ride the waves and locate a sense of energy and goodness as you go about your days, no matter where you are.

Yes. And one of the things I would add is that we can't always do it every time. So sometimes you're going to be in a bad mood or you're going to be really preoccupied with something and you're not going to be able to reach out, to get outside of your own head and do just what you're describing. It's okay if we can't do it every time. Do it when you can.

Well, I find that sometimes those small things take less energy than trying to refuel with a deeper conversation from somebody else. Can you talk a little bit about what the study says about the importance of romantic relationships to your happiness and health and to living a good life?

Yes. Actually, I was talking about this to a group of people, and one woman raised her hand and said, well, given all you've said, if I don't have a partner, should I just walk in front of a bus now? And the answer is absolutely not. You don't need a romantic partner. That Romance is great, sex is great. Intimacy is great. Intimacy can be with all kinds of people, right? So it may be that you don't have a romantic partner right now in your life. That doesn't mean you never will. But if you don't have one now, there are ways to be intimate with close friends, with other family members. And so what we're finding is that these benefits of relationship don't require a marriage license. They don't even require living in the same place with somebody. That you can have people in your life, maybe just one or two, who are your close friends, who you share your life with, and that there's no special arrangement you need to have with them. Now, that said, what we do find in the research is that living with somebody in an intimate partnership actually keeps you healthier longer and helps you live longer.

But there's no mystery about it. It's because it's somebody to remind you to take your medication when you're older. It's somebody to remind you to get off the couch. It's somebody to to drag you out to a gathering when you're stuck watching Netflix.

You make it sound so romantic.

Well, I know. It's not so romantic, but it is really just the day to day that other people make us better by keeping us on track. It's somebody to get up for. It's somebody to get dressed for. That's one of the reasons we find that many times when one partner dies, the other partner doesn't live that long afterwards when we're very old, because there's a way that living with another person helps us stay in the world and take care of ourselves.

Is that the same reason why pets are so good for your health?

Oh, yeah. Pets are great. First of all, they get us up, they get us to walk. But also pets love us, especially dogs. Dogs are particularly emotionally attuned to their masters. Pets provide comfort in a way that, again, literally lowers the fight or flight response. We can measure it. When we're petting a dog, the body calms down.

I want to go back to something that you said. You mentioned something about even just having a friend or two that you have a much deeper or an intimate connection with. Do you have two or three examples that might get somebody's mind thinking about things that they could plan or do or ways they could look at their friendships to amplify Do you identify them?

I do. Our lives are so busy, and we're pulled in so many different directions. And what we find is that often we want to see people, but we don't. So one of the things you can do is set up a regular contact with somebody. So let's say maybe there are just one or two or five people who you say, I got to have these people in my life regularly. Make it happen. I'll give you an example. My co-author for this book we wrote, The Good Life, is Mark Schultz. He's been my collaborator for 30 plus years, but he's also my friend. So every Friday at noon, we get on the phone. He lives in Philly. He's not around Boston. So I might see him once a year in person. But for 30 plus years, we've had a phone call every Friday at noon. And yeah, we do talk about research and we talk about our writing together, but we talk about our kids and our marriages, and we talk about everything. Now, one of us has to cancel if we're not going to meet Friday at noon. That means that it's going to happen by default, and that means it happens much more often than not.

It's rare that we cancel a time. What if you had a friend like that who you said, once a month, we're going out to dinner? So what I'm saying is, try making one One thing regular in your life with a friend or a sibling or somebody who you just want to say, I don't want to lose this connection.

I want to tease that out because I think this is something that you could listen to and nod along and be like, Aha, aha, aha. And so I want to make sure that you really understand what we're saying here, because over and over and over again, living a good life is about the things that are right in front of you that you're not seeing. Yeah. And everybody's busy. And if this matters to you, what he's recommending is that you schedule it as a reoccurring appointment. It is already set up. The babysitter is locked in or your friend is on board. And so you've already done the hard part of moving from thinking about it to doing it. And the appointment itself is what keeps you connected. If you have it in the calendar, it's more likely to happen. And there's something that I did that really helped me tremendously, which is I have a habit every morning where I send a text to a friend or a family member just saying, I was just thinking about you, or sending a photo, or whatever else. And if I really do want to get together, I say, I would love to see you.

Are you around next Thursday? Or I saw this photo come up on Facebook.

I just say, I was thinking about you.

And we underestimate how much it means to somebody else And making it a habit to do that first thing in the morning, every morning, has fanned the embers of old relationships, of people that are still friends. I just never see them.

People that I went to college with, high school with, people that I used to work with.

You have many more people in your life than you realize. And these small habits actually help them contribute to creating a good life.

Absolutely. Mel, you are the poster child for what we call in the book, social fitness. These Small actions like physical fitness, like something you do every day to keep yourself socially fit. And it can be small things like a text. It could be somebody with a long commute. Like you say, Well, I can't add anything to my time. Well, if you have a hands-free phone in your car, use your commute time to talk to somebody instead of listening to music or listening to the news. Reach out to somebody. There are all kinds of ways you can add add to your life without having to add so much time that you are more stressed.

Did the study give you any guidance on what makes for a good friendship?

Yes, several things. One is what we call authenticity. And all that means is, I feel I can be myself with this person. I don't have to put on any act. I don't have to hide big parts of who I am with this person. That sense of just being able to show up as yourself means a huge amount in terms of the comfort with which you can be together. The other thing that makes a good relationship is curiosity. If you think about it, especially with long relationships, we think, Well, I know this person. I know what they're going to say. I know how they're going to react. Bringing curiosity even to long-standing relationships, can be so good. One of my meditation teachers actually taught me this first. He said, Your job, when you go sit down on your cushion now for the one-thousandth time as you meditate, is to ask yourself, What's Here that I have never noticed before. So what if you're sitting across from your friend at the coffee shop and you ask yourself, What's here that I've never noticed before? And just bring curiosity even to the relationships that you think are routine, mundane, like the back of your hand.

You know what's interesting that I just thought about is that if you think about your own life and you go When you go back to half the age that you are, looking backwards, you realize how much you've grown, how much you've changed, how different of a person you are. And yet we don't give give that same perspective to the people in our life. Like, your mom has gone through the exact same amount of growth, even though the habits on the outside look the same. Your partner is a totally different human being. Yes. Even though they look the same to you, your friends have had so many things happen in their life that have changed who they are and what they care about. And yet you still show up and talk about the same old sports team and how are the kids? And there's something so much deeper going on.

Yes. To notice how somebody has changed can make someone feel so seen and understood.

Do you have a good question? How would you advise us if you're sitting here listening to this and you're considering everything and you're thinking about the just treasure that is right in front of your face with the people that are already in your life, how do you lean in?

Without sounding like some weird cheese ball that's just listened to a podcast episode, and now you're like, So have you thought about how much you've changed in the last half decade?

I'm curious, what's a way to broach this with somebody?

Yeah. Well, one thing we could do is notice change. To say, You're doing that differently than you used to. Tell me about that. Or, I've noticed Is that right? Do you think that this is more important to you than it used to be? Or just to notice and ask, Have I got that right?

I can think about a time when my brother-in-law turned to me and he said, You're really different. Than you used to be. I just wanted to acknowledge just how much work you've done and how fun you are to be around. Of course, I immediately went to make myself wrong, like, Wow, I must have been a real bitch I'm sorry.

But it was...

I remember feeling very touched by that. I think that's a wonderful suggestion to say to somebody, I've noticed that You're a lot calmer or that you seem happier or that something's off. You don't seem like yourself.

Yeah. Or that you're spending more time on this. You're spending less time on that. Or you seem less worried about this. Just anything. Because partly It's saying, I notice you. I don't just take you for granted. I think about you and how you are. I love that.

I'm stealing that.

What I love about what you're teaching us is I think that we've gotten to this point, especially when you look at content on social media, where there's so much of a push to cut people out of your life, to label that stonewalling is the word that you just use. But if you think about from the standpoint of somebody that has trauma in their past, or they have just an avoidant attachment style because of what they experienced as a child, and that it's just overwhelming to feel those emotions. If you can come at it from a sense of compassion. I love what you're teaching us because through understanding, you might be able to keep somebody in your life instead of just being like, That's it. You're out. You don't talk. You don't go deep, you're stone-walling me, you're ghosting me, when really there's another side of this coin, which is, no, this is a person who, through their childhood, gets very overwhelmed by these emotions and by intimacy, and they protect themselves by removing. This isn't about hurting you. It's about them protecting themselves. Am I processing this the right way, Dr. Franco?

You are certainly Certainly. I think if you want to be in a relationship with someone who's avoidant, it's important that you try to get your needs met in another relationship. Not trying to depend on this one avoidant person to meet all of your needs. The more that your needs are met elsewhere, the more you can be flexible with the person that's more avoidant. So the more that I feel in another relationship makes me feel secure, another relationship I can be really vulnerable and deep, another relationship I feel really loved and valued, then you have your cup full enough to be able to be more flexible with that avoidantly attached person who's like, We had some intimacy, now I need a breather. Here, and I need to pull away for a while. But I do think that we should challenge avoidantly attached people to say that it's okay that you need boundaries around intimacy, and it's okay that intimacy scares you, but you also need to fill people in. You have to just be able to say, Hey, I'm a little overwhelmed right now. I need about a week, and then I'll come back, and we can talk about this.

Instead of not communicating anything and just ghosting on people because that hurts people a lot. I think on both ends- Does it hurt the person who's avoidant when they ghost?

Does that contribute to shame Or is that just a way to just... Sorry. Go ahead.

What we see the pattern being is anxiously attached people think too much about other people and not enough about themselves. And avoidantly attached people think a lot about themselves in their own needs and not as much about their impact on other people. So the anxious person being willing to completely sacrifice their sense of self and do whatever their partner needs, and they're not actually happy, but they still feel like they're in a relationship with another person, which is not actually the goal, right? The goal isn't to be in a relationship at all costs. It's to be in a relationship that elevates you and helps you express who you are and makes you feel happier. But the avoidantly attached person, it's like when you're negotiating with someone and they have all the resources and all the power. It just tends to be the anxiously attached person who's adjusting to the avoidantly attached person because the avoidantly attached person is like, well, I'm okay alone. I'm okay independent. I don't really need these relationships with other people. But you will find that avoidantly attached people, they tend to have a phantom ex, where while they're in a relationship, they don't appreciate it.

But then when it's over, they look back on it. Once they're avoidant, they call these deactivating strategies, which is basically at some point this avoidant side of them really takes over and all they can think about is needing space and feeling suffocated and needing boundaries. It's like crisis mode. But once they have that space that that deactivating side moves away, and they tend to look back on these relationships and miss them and feel lonely and realize that they do also really need connections. So the avoidantly attached person is in this very stuck place where it's like, One side of me really needs connection, and another side of me is so afraid of it, afraid of it because I think if you get too close, you're going to harm me. That is what the avoidantly attached person sees. I think if you get too close, you're not actually going to like who I am. You're going to see me as less than and deficient and a failure, right? So they can't decouple intimacy for its beauty and its feelings of connection and meaning from intimacy as a threat, as a sign of betrayal, as a sign of being judged as a sign of being ultimately rejected.

So once that piece of threat takes over and they ghost, and they might actually feel relieved from being separated from the relationship at first. But But then as that deactivating part melts away a little bit, they start to grieve. They'll have a more delayed grief process around the relationship.

Can you have more than one attachment style?

Yeah, you can. Like I said, in each different relationship, you can have a different attachment style. And it makes sense, right? Because if someone is very anxious and is like, I need all your time and attention, and you You need to be showing me that you love me all the time, right? You're going to be like, I need some space. I need some meet time. I'm losing myself to try to reassure you in all these ways. And if someone is super avoidant and they're very distant and you're trying to connect with them and they're always pulling away, you're going to feel pretty anxious, right? Where it's like, oh, my gosh, I feel insecure. Do they actually like me? So it is a dynamic. And in different relationships, we can see different parts of our attachment style coming out. There's also a really fascinating theory called internal family system theory, which is this idea that we all have multiple selves within us, like our sixth grade self that was bullied is still within us. Our inner child self that was five years old and going through what he did in our family life is still within us.

And at different moments, each of these selves can come out and take over. And if you follow that framework, each of yourselves can have a different attachment style. But the goal of internal family systems is to be led by your highest self at any given time. Your highest self is like your most adult self that is most centered and stable and loving and compassionate. And that self, that highest self within us, within all of us is secure. I do believe all of us have a piece of us that is securely attached. The more we can access that self, the more we'll feel secure in our relationships.

Well, that sounds It sounds like good news. It sounds like within each one of us is a person or a self that is capable of secure attachment. Are you saying that if you Can start to identify your default attachment style and see it as a lens and an opportunity for growth and improvement that it is possible to change your default attachment style and become more secure?

Yes. So I guess it's called internalized secure attachment, where you have to start treating and talking to yourself like that secure attachment figure that you maybe didn't have. So when you're feeling a strong emotion, being able to tell yourself, it's okay that you feel this way. I'm right here with you. And what are you feeling? And what do you need right now? Almost being on your own side and being really, really loving toward yourself is like, that's part of the ways that we heal. Part of the ways that we find secure attachment is we think about... I'll even... This is different things I've done to find more security is singing love songs to yourself. And when you're activated and triggered, realizing that that's not all of you and that there's a piece of you that is still grounded, and what does that grounded part of you want to say to the triggered part of you? What love does it have to give in this moment? It also takes... What's happening with the insecure attachment styles is they're reactive. They're getting really emotionally overwhelmed, and they're acting based on that sense of emotional overwhelm, right? So the anxious the attached person is like, clinking, clinking, clinking.

And it's almost like, reflexive. They're not acting with intention anymore. They feel like they're almost hijacked. And the avoidantly attached person is also very hijacked, but instead it's to pull away, pull away, pull away. But if we can just pause and feel those uncomfortable emotions. Like, oh, my gosh, I feel so rejected right now. I feel so abandoned right now. Where do you feel that emotion in your body? How can you lean into feeling it more deeply? Allow yourself to feel it, right? Because fundamentally, this acting out behavior is a way to try to cope with a very difficult underlying emotion. And you can instead Instead of using this acting out behavior, like the anxiously attached person, demanding things of the other person, or clinging to the other person, or the avoidantly attached person suddenly pulling away, you can develop your own tolerance for that feeling or emotion that's very uncomfortable so that you don't have to act out in your relationships to protect yourself from it.

I want to focus on avoidant or disorganized right now because I really identify personally with anxious attachment. Since you already said that somebody with an anxious attachment style is prone to self-diagnose and want to fix it and always be thinking. I'm thinking about avoidant now, and I'm thinking about disorganized because as you go sing a love song to yourself, I personally am like, Oh, that sounds beautiful. But Dr. Franco, can we talk to the person who's listening right now who just had a visceral, That is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. No, I'm serious because I think that for people who are already like, Yeah, I'm sick of being hijacked by my emotions. I am married to somebody who is avoidant. I realized in researching this show, Dr. Franco, and getting ready for this interview, I didn't understand attachment style, and yet I have been talking about it in couples therapy for two years because I'm anxious and my husband is avoidant. And the The shame piece that he feels and puts onto himself is something I was unaware of. I've been griping that, Oh, I'm married to this guy. It's really quiet, and he doesn't...

And trying to draw him out. And so could you first explain to somebody who's having a... I'm not going to tell myself, why the hell would you do that? Could you explain why it is so important for happiness and confidence and success, these things that we all deserve, to learn how to change and grow toward a more secure attachment, particularly for somebody who's avoidant or disorganized?

Yeah. Here's the thing about avoidantly attached people. They think they're super independent and don't really need anyone. But that's a defense mechanism against an underlying need for a connection that they don't think they can actually fulfill. And I think if you're being really honest with yourself, no matter what your attachment style is, you'll see that a part of you really does crave connection. And if you felt like you could find it and feel comfortable and safe with it, it would feel a lot safer for you to admit it to yourself. And I'll also say that you will not know how beautiful connection, deep, profound, sustaining connection is until you find it. That That's the only way that you'll be able to judge whether you need connection in your life or not, right? Because you're thinking you don't need connection, but fundamentally, you don't even know what connection is because avoidantly attached people, when they're in relationships, they're not actually vulnerable. They're not sharing anything about themselves. They're not very authentic, to be real. And so they're connecting in a very shallow way. And they're saying, I don't need connection. It's like, I don't need that, which is It's arguably not true in deep connection, right?

Because it's not revealing, and you're not actually being known by other people, and they're not knowing you. There's not this giving and receiving of love that's happening. It's just like we're two people that are in each other's presence, right? And so I think there's this... And what I'm saying is that there's this disjuncture between what the avoidant person doesn't think that they need and what connection actually is and what connection actually can be and how connection can make you feel alive and seen and centered and grounded and supported and lighter. Those are all the things that true connection will give you that you will miss out on if you're very avoidant?

Dr. Franco, if you've never experienced that, and here you are, and you're decades into your life, and you've always had this experience of being on the outside, right? And keeping your distance and not trusting people because both your childhood taught you that you shouldn't and can't trust people, right? And that your own behavior of opting out because of your attachment style has only reinforced that because you're never stepping toward people. How on earth do you begin to change How would you change this if you've never experienced this?

You have to reconnect with your own emotions. You can't connect with people if you're always suppressing your emotions. Which is what avoidant people do. And it starts... I mean, obviously, therapy. I think therapy, really, there's therapists that focus on attachment style, specifically. I think a lot of male therapists who see a lot of men tend to do a lot of avoidant attachment work because this is part of how we socialize men. And there is a gender difference when it comes to attachment style, where women are at least slightly more likely to be anxious, men are slightly more likely to be avoidant. So therapy can help. But it's even when we start allowing people to reconnect with their emotions. At first, they might feel it as a sensation. Do you feel a tingling anywhere in your body? If you had to turn that tingling sensation, you have to find a feeling label for it. And we take out the feelings wheel.

Can you walk us through this? So let's just say for somebody listening right now who literally, Dr. Franco is about to go, Okay, I'm turning this off. We're talking to you. And for everybody who has somebody in their life like this, and I'm glad you said the piece about the research showing that women tend to be more anxious and men tend to be more avoidant. The only reason why I'm saying this is because as you're very well aware and you wrote about in your book, when it comes to friendship, women are way better at naturally forming communities.

And men, every year that you get older, you actually get further and further and further away from those connections of sports teams and fraternities and work friends, and men become more and more and more isolated.

And we tend to be better as women, connecting and staying in friendships where we're airing emotions, and men typically do not. And so I want to speak directly to somebody who may be hearing and learning about attachment theory for the very first time. They are considering, Holy cow, I think I'm avoidant. I don't like to talk about my feelings. I don't have a lot of friends, other than the person I'm dating or family connection I don't have this intimacy in terms of emotional support. What is an exercise, and can you and I role play it for somebody that's listening right now to just dip your toe into the water of trying to experience this connection to your own emotions that you're talking about?

Yeah, we can definitely do that. One thing that I also just wanted to share briefly for avoidant buy-in, because it's hard to get avoidant people to buy into this, is the physical health implications of your attachment style. That securely attached people, both anxious and avoidant, more likely than secure people to suffer from mental health issues. Anxiously attached people have the highest rates of mental health issues. Avoient an attachment, avoidantly attached somewhere between secure and anxious, and then secure people have the best mental health. Physical health, right? Because avoidant people don't access their emotion, it manifestsates physically. So if you're avoidantly attached and you're experiencing migraines, headaches, you don't know where they came from, gastrointestinal issues, stomach ulcers, And there's really no... You have no idea where this is coming from. And you're like, What is happening to my... Why am I in chronic pain? That's connected to emotional suppression and not releasing your emotions. So that is my last plug for finding secure attachment is your health, really, your physical health and how long you live. That's in part, predicted by your ability to reconnect to human connection.

One other thing I would love to add in my own experience, and then you can talk about it, Dr. Franco, clinically, is just seeing that my husband is now very clear that he was not only suppressing his emotions. He was numbing them with a daily weed and alcohol habit. What are some simple takeaways? You've already given us one, which is to start to notice how you're feeling. And you've talked about giving yourself the assurance and the love and comfort that you need. But what are some other tools that people can use starting today to begin the process of building a secure attachment with themselves?

Find securely attached people.

Okay. Where the hell are they hiding, Dr. Franco? And your schedule is very busy, so I know you don't have time to hang out with us. How do you know a securely attached person? Let's just scan a room. What am I looking for?

Yeah. I mean, it's going to, I think, take a little while for it to reveal itself. But is this person being vulnerable with you, but not oversharing, which is a nuance that's hard to interpret or to understand? I don't know. Are they sharing your life stories with you, their whole life story and their deep-seated trauma on the first day, or are they Like hearing why the day was hard. They had a struggle today. That's the appropriate vulnerability that we see in the securely attached person. The securely attached person is more loving towards you. They're affectionate towards you. They tell you how great that you are. If you bring up an issue with them and you're like, yeah, I'd love to hear from you more. Our friendship is so important to me. They're like, yeah, I'm going to try to make you feel more loved. They're responsive to your needs. They don't try to shut your needs down or tell you that you're wrong. The securely attached people has a positive view on others. If you hear things like, nobody can be trusted or everybody's going to abandon you, that's a sign of more insecurely attached people.

But the secure person is, I don't know, they see the best in people. If you hear them talk about some of their past relationships that didn't work. Again, there's that nuance that, yeah, this part was good, but this part I really struggled with. They just have more empathy for people, to be honest. That is something that's linked to secure attachment, empathy, authenticity. You feel as if they're telling I'm telling you, there's this way that I think in authenticity can manifest as there's this uncomfortable feeling, and instead of myself feeling it, I'm now going to engage in this defense mechanism. I'm not going to talk about how I'm so much better than everyone because that person made me feel inferior. Inferior. The secure person will just say that person made me feel inferior instead of being like, and I don't care about them. These are all the reasons why I'm so much better than them anyway. There's this sense that you're hanging out with someone that's more authentic. I don't know. They also just make your nervous system feel calmer. You're just going to feel a little bit more calm in their company. Those are some signs that you've found a secure person.

The secure person, whether in friendship or in romantic relationship, what's going to happen is they're going to keep treating you in a way that's counter to this internalized set of assumptions that you have this internalized template. And over time, your template is going to be starting to mold and change because they're giving you evidence that your template isn't necessarily correct.

So that's awesome.

I love that. And is there anything that in the meantime, you could add as a habit or something to do every day that would help you to start to reconnect and build that connection with yourself while you're scanning the world for more secure people to bring in your life?

I want you to savor a moment of acceptance that you experience every day because insecurely attached people, what they're They struggle with this feeling safe in relationships, no matter what that relationship is. They're coming into the game with the baggage of this is not safe in different ways. If you're insecurely attached and something happens for you today that made you feel accepted, I want you to write it down. I want you to focus on it. I want you to think about it until you feel some emotion. You feel the acceptance. You feel the love within your body. You have to be able to savor and receive those experiences of safety and acceptance that as an insecurely attached person, you usually just ignore and usually not even register.

Can I see if some of these are examples? It's like when a friend comes over for dinner and they bring cinnamon rolls. Yeah. Knowing that they brought you something, a small gesture like that, acknowledging that that is a moment, that's something like that?

Absolutely. But it can even be so small as like, Oh, my friend sent me a voice note today. They care about me. Or my friend commented on my picture that they like it. Make it a practice to receive love. That's really what I'm getting at here. Receiving love is not easy. It's something that we need to Practice.

I hate that it's not easy.

I know, right?

And is that the bottom line when it comes to attachment theory? That the importance of attachment theory is that when you understand your attachment style, you now have a lens through which to really look at yourself and your inability to receive love. And now you can go to work on learning how to become secure so you can let love in. Is that what this is truly about at the bottom line?

That's so beautiful now. Yes. I love that. I love it. Yes. I think secure people can receive the depths of love.

This is a recent breakthrough for me. It makes me really sad, Dr. Franco, to know that I'm 54 and that I would say it's only in the last two months that I've noticed how much I Stonewall love. That I'll pour it out, but I block actually receiving it. And so I started visualizing galley doors in a kitchen that swing back and forth as a tool to help me catch myself when I'm the one putting up the wall and not receiving those gestures that are in your life every day. A stranger smiling, a leaf falling from a tree in the shape of a heart, and it's beautiful, or your pet greeting you. Just these moments where love can blow into your life and how much I was not even receiving them until recently.

Yes, yes, yes, yes. It's wild to me how hard it is to receive love, how threatening it is. I think it's so threatening if you're avoidantly attached, because to receive love means to admit that you need it in the first place. So it feels like such a vulnerable act. And for the anxious person, it's like, I don't know. It's like receiving love implies that you're valuable. You're valuable as a person. And if you struggle with anxious attachment, you have this unconscious struggle with having low self esteem, which means that if people try to treat you like you're valuable, it doesn't match up with how you feel about yourself internally. And that's why it feels threatening. It calls into question your sense of predictability about how the world perceives you and how you perceive yourself. And it can feel like pressure. Like, oh, this person values me in this way, and I can't actually live up to that. It's like you have imposter syndrome in all of your relationships if you're anxiously attached. So for both attachments out, it's really hard to receive love. It is a trigger, I think, in its own right when people try to love us.

And so being able to work on the practice of receiving love, I think it's really important for finding more security.

Well, Dr. Franco, thank you. Your work is an act of love.

So Thais, you have this incredible new book called Learning Love: Build the Best Relationships of Your Life Using Integrated It's a good attachment theory. And one of the things that I love about your work is how empowering it is.

You teach how every single one of us can break free from patterns that are holding us back using the science of attachment theory.

So I want to start with the basics. What is an attachment style?

The subconscious set of rules you have for love and connection. And those rules can be in the form of the different beliefs you have, the different needs you have, what you expect in a relationship, relationships and how you communicate and set boundaries with others. You're not born with an attachment style. It happens through conditioning and the way that that neuroplastically affects your subconscious mind. And we can recondition our attachment style patterns. If we grew up in an unhealthy environment, we didn't get good learnings about attachment styles and about relationships, we can actually heal that and change that to become secure and have really successful, thriving relationships, whether that's romantic, family, or friendships.

This is an episode that we're going to release at a time of year where almost everybody is thinking about goals for next year and resolutions and all the changes that you want to make.

And how does going to work on your attachment style and your beliefs about love and relationships, how the heck does that help you with goals or with making positive change?

Because exactly the biggest limiting beliefs that we pick up from childhood about who we are and what relationships look like also form primarily the relationship we have to ourselves, which will color everything else in our world. Whoa.

When does this start in childhood exactly? Like, what age are you talking about?

It gets conditioned into us, actually between the ages of zero to two years old.

That early?

That early, yes.

Zero to two? Zero to two. So the stuff that goes down before you even remember zero to two is what's stored in your subconscious? Yes. And is what drives you as an adult unless you do the work to change it? Exactly. Are you kidding me? Yes.

So as an example, If somebody grows up in a household where they have a really critical parent, and maybe that parent has the best intentions, they want to prepare their child for the world, it's really easy for a child because a child personalizes everything. They can't say, Oh, my parent is communicating in a suboptimal way. So instead, what happens is the child goes, Oh, this is about me. I must not be good enough, or I must not be worthy, or I must be bad. And so what happens is the meaning we give to things when we perceive our environment and our experiences programs our subconscious mind through repetition plus emotion. Anything we're repeatedly exposed to that creates an emotional response basically fires and wires neural pathways. And so then what will happen is we form these deep beliefs about who we are in relationships. But unfortunately, these same beliefs associated with our different attachment styles will also be what we believe about ourselves in the workplace, in our friendships, in terms of how we operate financially. It can really spread into multiple areas of life. And a lot of the roots of these things actually exist from how how we attach and what we experience in our environment as young children.

Wow.

I love that you just put this thing that every one of us struggles with. Every single day I wake up and I'm like, Okay, today, I'm not going to be bitchy to anybody. Today, I'm going to exercise. Tonight, I'm not going to pour myself a glass of wine. I have all of these conscious intentions, but then things happen throughout the day, and I find myself dropping into the same behavior, and it is incredibly frustrating. If I'm tracking with what you're saying, your theory and what you do out in the world, you now have 31,000 people that you are working with through your company on the stuff that you're about to teach us. You're saying that we can identify those rules and behaviors that run in the background that drive our entire life And we can change them.

100 %.

Hey, Mel. It's Jennifer. Can you do a podcast not on marriage advice, but something about how marriage is so wacky, hard, and unusual, and worth staying the course? I went back and listened to your opening podcast and was so blown away by the exposure of what you'd gone through, but also of the impact upon your marriage. And so I'm blown away that your marriage existed through all of that. I feel a lot of cultural pressure and voices about leaving marriage, but not so much about staying. Like, maybe the pendulum has shifted generationally from, quote, Stay for the Kids to, quote, Leave to make yourself happy. But isn't there another way, another perspective on the why of staying? Do you think you could talk about that? I love the show, your vibe, your honesty. It really helps. Thank you so much, Mel.

Thank you for this question. I love your vibe, and I love the question itself. And I also want to thank Thank you for distinguishing between the request of asking for advice about marriage and relationships versus just talking about my experience of how hard and wacky having a long-term relationship can be. The truth is, I don't talk about this topic of relationships and marriage and giving advice about it all that much, because the fact is, I don't think I do know the secret to marriage. I've been married 26 years, but I feel like my husband Chris and I, we are still figuring out the secret to marriage. I also worry, if I'm being perfectly honest, and I promise this would be a brutally honest episode, that if Chris and I started giving relationship and marriage advice, and we somehow held ourselves out there as the model for a marriage that works, it would blow up our own marriage. I don't know if you've ever noticed this, but it seems like every other day There is some author influencer that has been giving relationship advice who then announces that they're getting divorced, and I personally do not want to get divorced.

But I can't stop thinking about your question. You're not the only one who has been asking me to talk about the secret or the strategies or just some of the things that Chris and I have learned along the way after being together for 28 years and being married for 26 years. Jennifer, after much trepidation, I decided, Fuck it. I'm going to answer this. The first thing I want to talk about is your observation about whether or not that pendulum has shifted generationally when it comes to advice about marriage, and in particular, when marriage gets hard. I agree with you. I think for somebody our age, and for those of you that may be new to listening to this podcast, I am 54 years old. My husband is 53 years old. We have three children who are going to be 24, 22, and our son is about to be 18 years old. Chris and I have been through a lot of ups and downs. Growing up, the relationship was always, you got to stay together for the kids. I personally think that is the world's worst advice. A lot of the research bears out the fact your kids know when you're miserable.

If you're staying only to tough it out for the kids, your kids are now seeing a model of a relationship that is profoundly dysfunctional. The way that they learn about relationships is by observing you. I don't think you should stay for your kids. I think that is lousy advice, and a lot of us have heard that advice for a long time. What I believe is that if you do decide that you're going to stay in a relationship, You have to do that for yourself. When you consider the reasons why you want to stay in a relationship, if you put yourself first, it may be that it matters to you based on your values to keep your family intact. One of the things that I think a lot of people don't think about when times get really tough is that your marriage is actually more than just you and your partner. Your marriage is your family. It's your network of friends that you've built together. It's the history that you've created together. If you see value in what you've created to date, that's a really valid and important reason to work on your marriage and relationship and try to work through the challenges that have come up.

But that right there is very different than staying for the kids out of guilt and shame. So stay because you want to stay. Work on it because you want to work on it based on your values and based on what you feel in your heart. I also agree with you, Jennifer, that there has been a big swing. I mean, you see it all over social media. Leave to make yourself happy. If you're unhappy in that marriage, you just walk right out that door. I would extend this conversation that you and I are going to have today beyond marriage. Because I think that the same things that make a marriage healthy and happy and go the distance are the exact same thing that makes a friendship happy and healthy and go the distance. We live in this world, and I worry a lot about this, where people are really quick to just X people out, to ghost somebody. I'll tell you something about being in the content space. Anytime you put up something on social media and you talk about narcissism or toxic behavior in other people, the post goes crazy. People love to just talk about other people being toxic.

I worry about the fact that we have gotten to a point where the pendulum has swung and people are starting to feel like, When things get tough, I just leave. When somebody's a jerk, I just walk out with it. They're the problem. The fact is, the exit door is usually not where you find the best answers. That's typically the easy out. I have found over and over and over again that the answers to a better relationship are usually in the mirror. And so what I want to say about that is this, if you're in a relationship with somebody who's abusive, leave. If you're in a relationship with somebody who's narcissistic, leave. If you're in a relationship that makes you absolutely miserable and you have tried to work through everything, you should leave, and that will make you happy. But if you're leaving because you don't want to do the work, that's a problem. And that habit of bailing when When things get tough, you're just going to take that right into the next relationship. That's why I am saying it's not necessarily the answer that's going to make you happy. The reason why I think that it is important in a friendship or in a marriage or a relationship to stop yourself from walking out the door and just pause long enough to do the work to stay is, number one, I don't know a single person who has truly put in the work to repair a marriage or a friendship who regrett it.

But I do know a ton of people who just got frustrated and got divorced, and they now regret that they didn't try harder or that they now miss friends that they ghosted or stopped talking to years ago over something stupid because they were too afraid to have the hard conversation. I do, based on the 28 years that I have been in a relationship with my husband, I have seen this over and over and over again. If you are willing to put yourself in pause and attempt to repair the marriage or the friendship, you're not going to regret that effort. Second, and I've already alluded to this, a marriage isn't just a relationship that you have with your partner. It's the community. It's the friendships and the networks that you've built. It's the history that you have together. And so when you end a marriage or a friendship, the truth is, you basically blow apart all of those things. And so that's another reason why it's worth trying to work on it. If you still see something for yourself inside this relationship or friendship. And I think a lot about the fact that when people get divorced, I would love to think that everybody can have a modern divorce, and you can blend families, and ex-spouses can be partners, and everybody can be with their new partners and blended families and have holidays together.

That's how it should be if you're going to end a marriage. But that's not the norm. I just want to be honest because I don't think we think through these things. It's that you won't have the same relationship with the sister-in-law that you love. You will not be going to your old in-laws if you adore them for the holidays anymore. Friends are going to feel funky because they're going to feel like they got to go with the one or the other in terms of your relationship. That just is how it is right now. I wish it were different, but I promised you I'd tell you the truth. Now I want to just deliver even tougher love about whether or not you decide to end this marriage. Because the fact is, let's just say that you end this thing, right? What are you going to do? Oh, I know exactly what you're going to do because you've also seen this a million times. Once you get out of this marriage, you're going to be highly motivated to get in the best shape of your life, to get back out there, to get healthier, to be more private, to be more vibrant.

Why? Well, so that you can attract somebody better. What if you were to just do that now? Why not do that now for yourself? Again, I want to say, don't stay with somebody who's abusive. But if you're sitting there bitching to your girlfriends or your guy friends or just your friends in general and your family, that you've become room mates and that your spouse is no more fun and you don't know who you're married to anymore. But Underneath all that, you just wish it were better. You still love this person. Don't just throw in the towel because you're frustrated. Do the work. That's what I've learned. You talk I'm going to talk about the fact that in some of the beginning episodes, I shared a little bit about our story. A lot of you already know it, so I'm not going to go into great detail. But for those of you who are new who are listening to the podcast, back in 2008, I had lost my job. We were 800 grand in debt because my husband's restaurant was going under. His restaurant business was really struggling. He hadn't been paid in months. We were just leans on the house, drinking ourselves into the ground.

I got to a point where it was easier to be angry at Chris and to just be resentful of him and to be like, I don't like you. I don't want to be with you. You fucked this up. As if it wasn't partially my fault, too. I want to say something to you. If you're sitting there thinking that the grass is greener. Look, maybe the grass is, but I want you to stop and consider something. If I ever get pissed off at my husband and I'm like, You know what? Chris is annoying. I just can't stand this about him or that about him, or he's always thinking about something. He doesn't talk, and he's not that fun, and he doesn't make me laugh, or whatever you may bitch about. I stop and say to myself, What's the average 50-year-old guy like? I mean, anybody my age, sorry, dudes, but any one of you that gets to the age of 50, you got shit in the closet. You got stuff that you have lied about. You've got things that you're ashamed of. You've got things that you haven't worked through. Here I've got two options. I can either turn toward the person that I was once in love with and do the work to make it better, to grow together.

I could roll the dice. I could end something because I'm frustrated or pissed off or things got challenging or whatever the situation may be. I could literally go try to create a relationship with somebody else who, by the way, I have not seen what this person has been doing for the last 28 years. I don't know what the hell they're telling me, whether it's the truth or not. I don't know what trauma they have buried beneath their skin. I don't know what bullshit they did in their prior marriage. But if you're willing to turn toward the person that you're with now, you know at least part of the story. And for me, it has always seemed worth it. No matter how hard things got with Chris, no matter how scary things got, no matter how much we resented and hated one another, no matter how much we were drinking, I never got to the point where I thought, It's way better to roll the dice and try to meet someone new than to try to work it through with this person right here. The truth is, and I'm sure this is true about you, I've talked about Juicy Peaches and embracing your Juicy Peachiness on this podcast, but there are days I am not a peach at all.

When a marriage goes off the rails, when you get to the point where your roommate, it's not just your partner's fault. That gets to this concern that I have, that we are so quick to just cut people out of our lives, to call people toxic, to end something because we're sick of it. We haven't even done the work to try to fix it. We haven't had the harder conversation. That's it. I feel like it is always worth working on it. And so if you're struggling in your relationship or you're struggling in a friendship, absolutely hit the pause button. Do not spend another second bitching to your your girlfriends or your guy friends about the situation and put your time and energy into working to make it better. Because I guarantee you, you have not communicated what you're feeling clearly. You have not made requests about what you want. You have not started unpacking where things went off the rails. And the truth is, if you're willing to work on it, you can make it better. I don't care how long or how little you've been married. If you're willing to work on it, you can make it better.

And I think that is the secret to a long-lasting marriage, relationship, friendship. It lasts because you're willing to work on it. That brings me to the most important caveat of all of this. I think this is the biggest single truth about relationships. Relationships only work if both of you are willing to work on it together. This is not a one-way street. There is no halfway on this. There is no I'm going to fix myself, and that fixes my marriage. You will never change your marriage on your end on your own. Period. Full stop. If you're listening to this and you have somebody that won't work I got it with you. I need you to listen to the takeaways that I'm about to give you, the lessons that I've learned actually very recently after being married to the same person for over 26 years. These are lessons that I have learned very recently after Chris and I have been in marriage therapy for two years. Even saying marriage therapy is weird because I think about going to therapy like going to the gym, that it's a way to make something better. In fact, at this point, I have benefited so much and learned so much about my husband that I didn't even know, having been married to him for the first 24 years.

It's so incredible to have a third person who is not sleeping meeting with you guys or living with you guys to weigh in on what they observe. It has been one of the greatest things that we have ever done for our relationship. I'm kicking myself for not having done it sooner. And so what I want to do is I want to share with you because I'm just getting so many questions. How did you guys go the distance? How did you make it through the challenging times? How did you do it? The way we did it is that we were both willing to do the work. And no matter How far apart Chris and I felt or were or how much we were struggling in our lives or our careers or financially or with addiction or whatever it may have been, the one thing that I can say is that we were always willing to work on it. No matter how pissed off we got with one another or frustrated or isolated from one another, I knew deep down that he did love me and that I loved him. Having faced bankruptcy and having been unemployed and having struggled to pay for groceries with three kids under the age of 10, I know that when life gets hard, it is so much easier to be frustrated and angry because you're triggered than it is to be afraid.

Back when the restaurant business was really struggling, I was so pissed at Chris. I was just resentful. I He was resentful that he wasn't successful. He knew it, he could feel it. That only contributed to the shame that he felt. The fact is, there are going to be years in your relationships when it goes the distance that are amazing and years that completely blow. Years where you feel very connected and years where you feel like you're in your own corners. And the past couple of years and going through the craziness that happened during the pandemic, it's been really painful. It did some real damage to our relationship. And so this is why, Jennifer, I'm so happy that you did not ask for marriage advice, because, again, I'm going to say everything I'm about to share with you, these are not the secrets to the perfect marriage. I am not the expert in what your marriage should look like. I like to keep my marriage between Chris and I. In fact, there are things that Chris and I talk about with our therapists that our kids don't You want to know why? Because it's not their fucking business, and they shouldn't know.

And your kids are not your therapist, and they're not involved in your marriage, and you shouldn't be talking to them about the stuff that you're mad about related to your partner. It's terrible to do that. Work on it with your partner. Because the more time you spend complaining and griping about your partner to your friends or your family or, dear God, do not do it with your kids, you need to be spending twice that amount of time talking to your spouse. See, that's why you're not connected. That's That's why you have problems, because you're not actually talking to your spouse. When we first started seeing a therapist, it was in 2020, and we decided to go to therapy because we had some major things going on because obviously the pandemic turned our life upside down, and we were both at our wits end, and we were fighting a lot. Here's one of the first things that our therapist said to us, and it really has stuck with me, and I think that this framework will be really helpful for you, too. He observed that Chris and I are excellent at the transactional aspects of life.

We can cook dinner together, we can sync up our calendars, we can run errands. We can do projects around the house. We're really great at parenting together. We get the day-to-day stuff done. We love spending time as a family. We have meaningful work that we feel connected to. But here's what happened. Somewhere during the past, probably five to eight years, we got so swept up in the doing that we stopped being connected. The fact is, I was very resentful that he wasn't successful in his career. At least in the beginning, I was really resentful. I can see that my resentment made me turn on him, and it made me turn on him when he needed me most. I stopped believing that he would be able to save that business. I can see, and I will admit, and this is one of those episodes where I'm the asshole, and I'm just going to admit all the things that I did wrong in the hopes that you don't repeat the mistakes that I made. I can see that I was engaged in what I've seen people call the quiet quitting. For me, it was the quiet quitting of a marriage.

You might not even be conscious to this. You might be doing this in your job. You might be doing this in your family. When people use the term we've become roommates, I think that what you're talking about is that you're in a relationship where one of you is quietly quitting. You're doing the bare minimum. You're resentment and griping is building. Maybe you saw your parents doing it, enduring something. For Chris and I, in all of the doing, we lost that deep emotional connection to one another that we had worked so hard to build over the years. Resentment for me had started to really come in, and he could feel it. The emotional connection that you have, that's the glue for your relationship. When it becomes really transactional, there will be resentment, and there was resentment on Chris's side, too. That emotional connection is what was missing for Chris and I. The love was there underneath it all. But there was this mid-layer that had built up that made us really lose a connection to one another. I remember this particular moment. It was right before we went to therapy, a really friend of ours saw us at a dinner that friends of ours had just invited a bunch of us over for a barbecue.

She called me the next day and she said, Is Chris okay? I said, Yeah, I think Chris is fine. Why? She said, Something's wrong with him, Mel. I said, What do you mean? She said, There's just something missing. The light behind his eyes is gone. There's normally this magnetic connection between the two of you. I haven't seen the two of you in a couple of years, but it's just something's wrong. She was right. What was wrong was, number one, we were missing the connection. We were disconnected. And there were a lot of other things wrong, too. One of which I would come to learn is that Chris was really struggling with depression. And so that brings me to, well, what do you do? How do you get the connection back? Mel, if I'm going to hit the pause button and before I just shove the middle finger in the air and say, You're the problem. I'm out of here. I'm going to be happy. I'm leaving. I'm done. What do I want you to stop and think about before you do that? Well, there are six things that you got to do, in my personal opinion, that you can do and that do work if both of you are willing to work on it.

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