Dr. Romani, I'm so excited that you're spending so much time with us because your new book, It's Not You, I feel like this is the book the world needs because there is so much content out there about how to spot a Narcissist, but not enough information about what do you do once you realize you either have a parent who's one or you're in a relationship with somebody and understand the impact that it has on you.

Yeah. It's funny you say that because even when I think back in the making of the book. Listen, we go online. It's almost like it's more sexy content to talk about the why. Why do they do this? Why do they do that? What's this? What are the five signs of identifying a narcissist? That's the hot content. But the problem is that it keeps digging people into a hole. Once again, we're more fascinated by them than we are with not only how this is affecting us, but who are we? Because we had to hide ourselves in order to stay in these relationships. This idea of the tale of the hunt is always told by the hunter, never the lion. It is that the hunter always gets to tell the story. And the story of narcissism, even in the Annals of Mental Health, books about narcissism have always been about the narcissist.

It's interesting you use the word hunt. It feels very deliberate.

Yeah.

And so as you're listening to Dr. Romani in this conversation today, I would love for you to set the table more about this proverb of the Hunter versus the Lion, so that the person listening can locate themselves inside of that dynamic.

I think the proverb goes so deep, right? The tale of the Hunter, what we told about the Hunter and never the Lion, is that there is It can feel at the most extreme, like a very predatory relationship. Predatory in the sense of they're stealing your sense of self. They are making you exist for them. And it is such a seamless, quiet, gradual transition that when you finally look up and realize, whoa, I am entirely living in their psychological service and to appease them, you're like, How the heck did this happen? Because I was actually a pretty autonomous person before I met this person. I knew who I was. I'm not even sure who I am anymore. That's what I mean by the hunt. They, in essence, are hunting your sense of self. They are taking it and using it in their service. And that's why that proverb had such meaning. And we always talk about... It's always the hunter that gets to regale everyone with their tail. Let me tell you how I did this, and let me tell you how I did that, and I'm so heroic, and I had to do this and this and this.

But we don't really talk about the experience of what it's like, even when we're strong, like a lion, to be stalked and staked out and cornered, and despite all our strength, because they're using very different weapons than our claws and muscles and all the things we've got, too, because they're using something as focused as a gun, they will take us out. That's why.

I'm processing what you're saying and thinking about relationships in my own life where I have someone in my life who has a narcissistic personality style. I think there's a fundamental mistake that I'm sure everybody makes. I know I've made it, which is Presuming that everybody thinks like you, presuming that everybody loves like you do, presuming that everybody has the same level of self-awareness or intention. And so you can be going about your life thinking that the people in your life are other lions.

Correct.

And yet they are viewing you very differently.

That's right. That's exactly right.

I love that you're also picking a proverb that represents us as a lion because is, you're right, lions are very strong. And the message in your book, loud and clear, It's not you, is also that it is possible to recover and to heal.

A hundred %. And when you're in the middle of the storm, you think it's never going to stop raining. This book is really that weather forecast that I promise you it will. And even when you're in the middle of it, there's things you can do to get yourself to that sunny day, to your true sense of self.

Well, I really relate to the title It's Not You, because I think the most predominant thing that I've seen for myself in being in relationships with people with a narcissistic personality style or in listening very closely to a friend or a family member who is in one is that you do think it's you. You think you're the problem, or at least that's the way that I thought, that if only I were a better this or a better that, then this person would change. And so understanding that it's not you That, to me, gives me a sense of hope that if it's not me, then maybe if I focus on me, I can heal from this.

That's exactly right. I think that, too, the the the the the the the mistake is maybe if I'm a better daughter, better partner, better mother, better worker, whatever, better writer, whatever that better one wants to be, the error is thinking that it will change them. At best, what it might do is make you a better source of supply.

What do you mean by that?

I'm going to use the example a lot of people give me, okay? Because we talk a lot about partners. Let's talk about parents for a minute, because even adult children are very much in the thrall of their narcissistic parents. If only I did this, I visited them more, I called them more, I did this more, I did whatever it may be, okay? Because remember, you're on a grail quest that anyone who's had a narcissistic parent ever has. That Grail quest started in childhood, right? That's what's so insidious about people who are still struggling with narcissistic parents when they're adults. You're still showing up with the finger-painted picture when you were four saying, Do you like my picture? Right now, we're doing it with jobs and books and titles and look at my new house and look at my new car and look at this baby I had.

And here's your grandchildren.

And they're still not breaking out of their selfish haze, which we don't equate with parents. So what happens is the child The child of the narcissistic parent modifies and shapes and tries to become what the narcissistic parent wants. More quiet, more tidy, better tennis player, better grades, more helpful around the house, sometimes even the parents' therapist. They cheer the parent up. Parents are not cheering them up, by the way, but they are like the parents' life coach, everything. Well, that's how you became a better source of supply as a kid. And a person has to do this as a kid. As a child, the child has no choice but to accede and give in to what the narcissistic parent apparently wants and needs, basically subjugate themselves to the narcissistic parent, because it's the only way that child is going to get the absolute essential attachment needs met. That child needs a secure attachment. And when that's not happening just because the parent is being a parent and the child has to modify themselves, they will modify themselves because the child doesn't have the luxury of saying, Oh, my parents are narcissists, so nothing I'm going to do is going to work.

They can't divorce the parent, so they've got to modify themselves. That builds up a muscle in the child. And that muscle that gets built up in the child is that capacity to modify oneself, to be what the other person needs to create an attachment. So not only does that become a bad precedent once you start dating, because then you are putty in the narcissistic person's hands, you're shaping yourself to suit them, you remain, again, in that way with a parent. You continue to say whatever the equivalent of the finger-painted picture is in adulthood, and maybe I will show up more, but it's never enough. And if you did live next door to them, then they'll have contempt for you of why are you taking so much of my time? It's never enough. And so what the person is trying to do in any narcissistic relationship, including with a parent, is we think we're becoming better to change them. When we keep becoming better, we're just becoming better supply. We're giving them everything they want. And what the narcissistic person wants is that we anticipate their needs, read their minds, be what they want, never be a source of stress, prop them up, keep our needs and wants quiet, and then boom, you're the perfect source of supply.

If you're raised by a parent that's narcissistic and conditioned in that way, are you more susceptible to being in narcissistic relationships later in life?

You are. You definitely are. For no other reason that you've built this muscle up, that accommodation muscle, as I call it, right? There's a flexibility a person needs to have and develop if they have a narcissistic parent. Otherwise, they're going to develop pretty severe mental health issues, which does happen to a subset of folks. But by and large, what we see, survivors of narcissistic abuse, especially from childhood, are very flexible, very accommodating because they had to for survival reasons once upon a time. Now, what I do not buy into is this idea that because a person has narcissistic parents or parents, that they're more attracted to narcissistic people, that's not the case. What they're more likely to get is stuck in that relationship. Narcissistic people are attractive to everyone. Charm, charisma, shiny, interesting, curious, confident, rescuable, whatever we need them to be, they often are that thing. But once it starts getting darker and there's a lot of devaluation, the relationship becomes less healthy. Healthier people may be able to muster up in themselves. Like, this does not feel good. I don't like this. But the people who had the narcissistic parent are much more likely to say, I know this game.

Because you've been making excuses for your parent for so long.

Exactly. So the slide into the trauma bond is much, much more seamless, and it happens automatically because the, Oh, I just have to be more. Got it. Of course, I have to earn love. That makes sense.

As an expert on this topic and a practicing clinician, what are the signs that you have experienced narcissistic emotional abuse?

Self-blame, self-doubt, confusion, anxiety, a sense of helplessness, frustration, powerlessness, problems with sleep, problems with concentration, decrements or lack of self-care of any kind, feeling selfish if you do anything for yourself, being on edge, being hyper vigilant, always ready to fix, feeling you have to change yourself to please other people, a sense of loneliness, a sense of isolation, a sense that you're weird. That's just the shortlist.

Wow. And what is the first step if you're listening to this and you're going, Yep, narcissistic parents, or, Yep, I survived a narcissistic spouse, or I'm with one, or I've been in a relationship with one, and you're like, I exhibit all those things. What's the first step that somebody needs to take in order to start to heal from that damage?

You got to see it for what it is. And so that takes us to the place of radical acceptance. Radical acceptance is the awareness that this is not going to change. By this, I mean their behavior, these dynamics, this relationship is not going to change, number one. Number two part of radical acceptance is these things they do, these hurtful things, you radically accepting doesn't mean they're not going to hurt. When somebody invalidates you that you believe you loved or are supposed to love, when they invalidate you, when they insult you, when they criticize you, when they shame you, it will hurt. So don't think that radical acceptance means that all of that goes away, nor is radical acceptance not a magic pill. It doesn't mean it's all going to get better. It's not that you're signing off on their behavior. It's not that you're agreeing with their behavior. It's that you're leaning into the understanding that this is it. This is not going to change. And then the summit of radical acceptance is, this is not my fault. But I'm great. I'm glad when we can at least get the client to say, Okay, this is not going to change.

Why? Because it takes away one of the biggest barriers to healing. Which is?

Hope. Hold on. Let me see if I understand what you're saying. Hoping that Somebody that has a narcissistic personality style hoping that they can change, that is the biggest barrier to you healing? Yes. Why?

Because now your psychological resources are still invested in the idea of them changing. So until we can get that off the table, you are going to still have way too much of you invested in something that's never going to happen, which means that there's not enough of you left to work on your healing, your process of individuation, your process of finally getting to live in yourself rather than in service to them. Does that make sense?

It makes a lot of sense because for decades with a particular person in my in my life, I hoped that they would change. Yes. I would twist myself in knots and show up differently and try a little bit harder and do this and do that and constantly think about it. What was always there in the background was the hope that things could be different. Correct. It wasn't until I met you three years ago or four years ago now, and you said, They are not changing, period. They're not even aware that they have this personality style, and they don't care. They don't care. And there is nothing that you can do to change this. And when you said that, it was very interesting. I could see it for what it was. It's almost like when somebody says about themselves, well, I just am in the way that I am. And people in my life have always said, well, that person, Mel, is just the way that they are. That's just who they are. I could never accept that Because I wanted it to be different. Correct. And you're right. It was the hope that it could be better.

The hope that this person would change. The hope that things could look different that kept me trying so much. Even though I think deep down, I knew that it wasn't going to make a difference. That is a sad ass statement.

Yes, it is.

That hope that somebody else will change is what keeps us from healing? Yeah.

Would you agree Did you think with that, that once the hope got lifted for you, do you feel like your healing proceeded? Yeah.

Once I understood the situation for what it was, I was so enmeshed in the situation because it had been going on for decades, that I just couldn't even see the situation that I was in. But when I started to understand more about narcissistic personality styles based on you and some work with my therapist, and I started seeing the behavior patterns, and I stopped making it so personal. And I extracted what I wanted and all my feelings and just saw it for what it is. When this happens, this person does this. You can start to predict it because you know it in terms of the patterns. Once I was able as much as I didn't want to, and I think that's the other thing that we don't talk about a lot when it comes to narcissism, is that you can understand all that. But if you still somewhere in the back of your mind go, But I don't want it to be that way, you will forever be at the whim of that behavior.

I wouldn't even say it's so much now that I don't want it to be that way, is that I believe it could be different. The situation I'm hearing from you is you don't want it to be this way. No. You don't. The key, the lifting of the hope, the radical acceptance is it can't be any other way.

There is so much content out there about how to spot a Narcissist. What do you do or you're in a relationship with somebody?

People don't like the suggestion I'm about to make, and I'm aware they don't like it, and I don't care. I'm going to make it, which is what I call...