You've got a new research in It's Not You. And one of the things that you write about are the four myths about narcissism. Can you unpack those for us?

So one of the key myths is that narcissistic people are always men. And I think that that's a dangerous myth, right? And again, I'm using the gender binary here. We still are that this research is evolving. So keep in mind, research often has a 10 to 15 year delay, if you will. But using the binary is that a narcissistic grandiose narcissists are more likely to be men. The combativeness- What is the malignant narcissism? So malignant narcissism is actually the most severe form of narcissism. I always call it the last stop on the narcissism train before it veers into psychopathy station. It's where we see the dark tetrad, where narcissism, Machiavelianism, or the willingness to exploit others, psychopathy and sadism all come together. And that's a lot of what we see in malignant narcissism. They are more coercive, they are more exploitative, they are more manipulative. They're more isolating. They don't tend to have the big, bright, shiny, grandiose personalities.

So is this when you get into severe emotional and physical abuse? Correct.

Yes. It may not even be physical. It may just simply be severe, isolated, coercibly controlling kinds of financial abuse, emotional abuse, that thing. It's more menacing. And I think that those kinds of qualities, again, tend not to be selected for in women. So we're We're going to see that more in men. But when we talk about communal narcissism, that savior narcissism, this is where we see everything from new age folks to cult leaders to people who think they're saving the world. And it's what people like saving the world like, What do you mean? They're resc puppies puppies. How could that be bad? They're rescuing puppies, though, to get validation and admiration. They probably like the puppies well enough. But if nobody's recognizing all their puppy saving or their environmental saving or whatever it is they're doing, they get angry. They have to be recognized as humanitarians. They not only put themselves out there as these great humanitarian saviors, they still treat the people they're closest to quite terribly. A great example of this would be the person like, You're a dad. Pillar of the community. You're so lucky to be his kid in the Little League and the mayor in the small town, and behind closed doors, is screaming at that family, humiliating them, shaming them.

And yet the world says, Your dad's a pillar of the community. That's a great example of communal narcissism.

So first myth that men are the narcissists. What's the next myth?

The second myth is that this is just bragging. It's just arrogance. It's just posturing. It's what we were talking about earlier. I think that somebody meets someone arrogant, they're like, oh, that's a narcissist. And I'll always say, slow down, sister. Let's spend a little bit more time. I'm digging in. I'm trying to find the entitlement. It's a little bit hard to find sometimes because it might take a minute to unfurl. That's why even therapists, it takes us a minute before we could really say definitively someone has a narcissistic personality or a narcissistic personality disorder. Just because the person's arrogant, just because a person is wearing designer labels, it doesn't mean they're narcissistic. So I say we have to be careful when it's these forward-facing characteristics.

The grudge really hit me, and so did this distinction that you mentioned earlier between the difference between somebody being annoying versus somebody's behavior being harmful.

That's exactly right. And that's the piece where... This is what concerns me about the TikTok-fication of narcissism, because what you're seeing there, and I've run into this over and over again, a lot of the folks out there who sometimes put out narcissism content were hurt by a narcist. I'll give you a classical example. Somebody His boyfriend cheats on them. He's a narcist. I'm like, he cheated on you. Not okay, but I need more. Right. Okay. So I think that this idea that somebody cheats that makes them a narcist. Do narcissists cheat more than other people? Absolutely. Absolutely. Is everyone who cheats a narcissist? No. So I think that when a person is hurt in one way, they want to make that leave. We even have to be careful there. So yes, it's annoying. It is immature. We really latch on to the superficiality part of it. Just because somebody put selfies on Instagram, it doesn't make them a narcist. They could just be a sweetie. They just might just say, look, an autumn leaves tree, and this It was me in front of it. And in some ways, I look at those and I'm like, sweet.

But I mean, it's a little.

I think what you're saying is really good. So now I feel terrible about slamming the baby in the Versace thing.

I'm willing to take that bet, Mel.

Because there are multiple checkboxes in that scenario in a certain age and behavior by parents, because I don't blame the child at all. And I also, in learning everything that I've learned in a weird way, the person that I'm closest to in my life that has a narcissistic personality style, I don't even blame her. We shouldn't say them. I don't even blame them because I understand what you're saying, which is this can be the result of adverse childhood experiences that stunts somebody's emotional growth. I don't even blame them because I understand what you're saying, which is this can be the a result of adverse childhood experiences that stunts somebody's emotional growth?

Right. And this is where it gets the most tricky for survivors, right? Because I hear you, and that's exactly what I know, and many of the people I've known who are narcissistic clients I've treated and all of that, to still keep pinning it down to, and their behavior is not acceptable. Number one, you're not responsible for their history. Number two, if they are a sentient, functional human being, they They can take responsibility for their mental health. They have put you in the position of using you as a tool of regulation, pacifier, and punching bag. That's not okay, right? They can take responsibility, but they will dine out for the rest of their life on the idea of, I had a tough childhood. And they will, these days more than ever, will commandeer the rough childhood explanation as the explanation for their behavior. This is why I'm saying we have to be careful while narcissists Narcism may be in part a trauma response. I'm going to push back on that a little, which is a person who had an adverse childhood and is having consistent trauma responses, for example, safety behaviors and all that. They tend to be consistent.

The narcissistic person knows what they're doing. How do we know what they're doing? Because you've gone through this, too. Think of the dinner party scenario. The dinner party, they're so charming. In fact, someone even ribs them, makes a funny little joke at their expense, and they laugh. You're thinking, maybe I judge this person wrong. Maybe they're not narcissistic. You get in the car at the end of the night, and they go off for the next hour. They knew what they were doing. They waited till they got in the car. That's not a lack of insight. They knew exactly what they were doing.

There's another huge insight that's brand new for me, because I think I've probably over indexed on the explain it away, be empathetic, have sympathy, while trying to remind myself I'm not responsible for it.

So what What I just shared was myth three, that this idea that they don't know what they're doing. This is why this is such an important point. That person who's careful, they make sure there's no one else in the car when they're on speaker. They scream at you after the dinner party is done. All the dinner party guests, the family, might still think they're a cool person because they've never seen the rage. Then that person experiencing that relationship often not only doesn't have support, they're having to endure other people saying, You're whoever it was, your friend, what a great person. I love of the new boyfriend. And you're like, Everybody likes them. And then what do you do?

Well, if everybody likes them- What's wrong with me?

It's got to be me. And that's why the book's called It's Not You. Wow. The fourth myth, and this is the myth to rule all other myths, which is they can change. Everyone can change. Okay, so let's start with the simplest example. I'm going to put myself here on the shopping block. I am an agreeable introvert. That's Dr. Ramani's personality. No matter how bad a day it I'll roll up to the person at the airport, Hi, how are you? Because I'm thinking, I don't know what day they just had. So I'll really say, You got to show up. You got to be warm and friendly, even if you're not feeling it, because kindness is good. My agreeableness has been there. If you ask my mother, she'll say, From the day you were born, you were the sweetest, easiest baby in the world, smiling in every picture, right? But I'm an introvert. If somebody says, Ramony, you'd be so much more successful if you're a bit more entitled, put yourself first. It could be a little bit more arrogant. Do it. My team sometimes is like, come on, you got to put yourself out there, Romani.

And when I do, I feel sick. I can't do it. The times I'll be like, I need to be first. I'm like, no, I don't. I can't do it. But if let's say somebody even said, just go out there, be more entitled, be more grandiose, be more arrogant, be all these things, stop having all this empathy. Stop. What is the likelihood I could do that? And be the life of the party. Zero. Okay, so if I If I can't make those changes, why would the narcissist, and my personality is less rigid than theirs, if I can't become a disagreeable extrovert tomorrow, why would the narcissistic person become a big, huggy, empathic, unentitled, open, vulnerable person. I can't do it, neither can they. And they're less likely to do it because their personality is more rigid. Wow.

I mean, that makes all the sense in the world.

We're actually asking something unreasonable, the narcissistic people, when we think that they can change. And when you throw go in there, they're less likely to go to therapy. And when they start going to therapy, they're 60 % more likely to drop out of therapy. When is this change actually going to happen?

So is that the reason why we don't know how many narcissists there are because they don't go to therapy?

Not only do they not go to therapy, a lot of the research, Mel, focuses on measuring how many people have narcissistic personality disorder. And that, you're going to see rates of one to six %.

Versus a style.

But versus the personality style, where we're never going to get those numbers People said, come on, spitball a number. If I were to spitball a number, 20 %, one in five. That high? Enough narcissism to cause problems in relationships? Yeah. Do they have NPD? I have no idea. But one in five people, I think, has enough narcissism to cause a problem. I think if you go to major Metropolitan areas, it's going to be worse. I think in certain industries, it's going to be far worse. Finance, law, politics, media, athletics, celebrity, much, much worse.

Wow. There are five Five different patterns that narcissists have that you write about in your new book, It's Not You. Yeah.

So dimmer is an acronym I use to help not only people who are going through these relationships, but clinicians organize the pattern. The dimmer patterns, and I use the term dimmer, is because it really turns down our light. And narcissistic people are dismissive, invalidating, manipulative, minimizing, but also gaslighting is in that manipulation. They're entitled and they're rageful. And all of those patterns, the dismissiveness, the invalidation, the minimization, the manipulation, they turn off our light because the only way we can then survive in a relationship with a Narcissist, if we don't know what it is, the only way we can survive is by giving in, which means subjugating ourselves to them, pretty much living in their service. Because when you do that, the Narcissus views us like I view this cup. Right now, I love this cup because it's holding the water I need. I'm fond of the cup. Thank you, cup. And that's even a stretch to thank the cup. When this is over, I'm going to throw this cup out because I have no more use for this cup. That's how a narcissist views a person.

What if I'm I'm fascinated about that is that you constantly think about the narcissist in your life. All the time. But they don't think about you.

No, unless they need you, and then they think about you a lot. So you like this cup. I'm thinking about this cup now. I'm about to take a drink out of They're not thinking about you unless you serve a function or unless they think they're going to lose you. The one thing we forget about narcissistic folks is they don't like abandonment because it is a loss of control. There's an argument that narcissistic folks also have attachment issues. They either have anxious attachments, avoidant attachments, or mix of both, but definitely insecure attachments. So the idea that their source of supply could get up and leave, and that's not what they want, means that they've lost control of the narrative, and they will punish that person for doing that.

Another one that you write about is domination.

Domination patterns are classical and narcissistic relationships because the function of a relationship for a narcissistic person is really to give them a place of power, domination, and control. And it's the only way they can function in a relationship. So as a result, all narcissistic relationships are asymmetric. There will never be balance and equity in in a narcissistic relationship. They have to have more power. So that's why, for example, in an intimate relationship, a narcissistic person will often have more money. And if their partner has more money, that's not going to work for them. I remember working with a client where there's a woman, and she had a very narcissistic partner. She made the money. She's incredibly successful what she did. And he was absolute textbook malignant narcissist. And he would cut her down constantly, cheated on her all the time. Anything to make her feel smaller and smaller and smaller. Then one day, he got into a new line of work, and his career really skyrocketed. Then the balance switched. He was now making more money. And money is a very, very powerful source of supply for narcissistic people, because in our culture, it's one of the fastest routes to power you can get.

So then he continued doing all the abusive things, but now he was much more secure in the relationship. And strangely, he started behaving a little better, whatever better is. But you see the same thing in families, too. It's all about power, domination, and control. And it doesn't have to be the patriarch or the matriarch. It could literally be a sibling who is the one who is exerting that power, domination, and control. And so The power isn't always where you think. And obviously, when you have a narcissistic father, for example, can really, really be painful for everyone involved because that person is already more societally powered just by being a man in charge of a family. But that's a It's central, central motivation. I think what happens for a lot of folks who fall in love with a narcissistic person is they believe you both want the same thing. You were in love. We're doing love things. I'm like, No, you're in love. They're in power. Understand the difference.

Whoa. That's a big one. You're in love, they're in power. Understand the difference. Let's go into the three phases of a narcissistic relationship, okay? Because what Rebecca has done is Rebecca dug into the cycle of a narcissistic relationship. I have to tell you, before we unpack this, everybody, I used to work on a domestic violence hotline. I did this decades ago. I was a trained crisis intervention counselor, and I will tell you that when you learn the three phases, this cycle of a narcissistic relationship and how supply really plays into it, it feels almost identical the battered women syndrome, and the romance, and the honeymoon cycle, and the abuse cycle. What's interesting is because so many of you have experienced emotional abuse from somebody who's narcissistic. I think it can be really confusing to identify it because it's sinister. When somebody hits you, you know it's wrong. But when somebody is, I I didn't say that. I never mean that. Raging at you, putting you on edge, making you feel like you're the one going crazy, it's all emotional. And so you start to question yourself. And so Rebecca is going to teach you that there are three phases of a narcissistic relationship, and they are very distinct.

And the first phase is when you get pulled in. And that phase is something you've probably seen other people have happened to them. I've certainly seen it happen to one of our kids. You get swept right off your feet. And you know that this is something called love bombing. And that's what we're going to talk about when we come back. We're going to dig into all three phases, what they look like, what they feel like, how to spot which phase you might be in or a friend might be in. And then we are going to get to that four-step approach to how you deal with a Narcist, how you negotiate, and how you ultimately win and get what you need from the Narcist in your life. So don't you dare go anywhere, because I'm going to be waiting for you after After the break. Welcome back. It's your friend Mel Robbins. We are digging into Narcism, and boy, are we learning a lot from Rebecca Zung. As you know, Rebecca Zung is one of the top-rank lawyers in the United States. She has been researching Narcism for decades. She's written three books on the subject, and I love her angle because she's not a psychologist.

She's not a relationship expert. She's a lawyer who is here to make her case. She is a lawyer who shows up in a court with a strategic mind and a game plan to win. Let's dig in to the three phases, the cycle of a narcissistic relationship. Rebecca, you write extensively about phase one, which is love bombing. Can you describe what love bombing is?

Yeah. So it's the same, whether it's a professional or a personal relationship. And obviously, if you're in a family, it's totally different. But this is initial if you're just meeting a person. So they use mirror neurons, by the way. I mean, this is one thing I do say they're really good at because it's a survival mechanism for them. So it's something that they've learned from childhood to do. And that is, they become exactly what you want. They're very good at reading people. So it's almost like chameleons to read exactly what you want. And they come on really, really strongly at the beginning to I mean, it's almost like you can't breathe. They overpower you. And all of a sudden, you're the most It's an amazing thing that make you feel like you're the most incredible person that they've ever met. And they are the most incredible person that you've ever met. And it's like your soulmates. And where have you been all my life? And it's 50 emails a day and a hot 1,000 text messages a day. And they're showing up at your house or office. And we should get married and we should meet your family.

Or if it's a business relationship, then we should be business partners. And I've got all the best contacts. And it's the excitement and it's the chemistry. And you almost can't breathe or see anything else because it's all them all the time because they're trying to get you to that next level right away. They want to lock you in as fast as possible. Let's get married in Vegas. Let's move in together. Get me on your bank accounts. And many times they'll show up as your savior. If It might be right after somebody died and they're swooping in and they're taking care of everything. Or it might be if you are a victim of something, then they'll show up and they'll take care of everything that way. Or they look for opportunities to swoop in. If they look for vulnerabilities that way as well. But it's It sweep you off your feet. Grand gestures. Massive, huge grand gestures like that a lot of times. So that's the thing you see at the beginning.

Big things lock you in. One of the things I just want to point out is that even though you're using terms like, They look for this. They do this. Would you agree, though, that this is, given that it's arrested development, not something that a narcissist is consciously doing, that they're not sitting around going, who's my next victim? Who am I going to love bomb? This is their way of being, and they do it innately. And so I think part of the reason why it's important to highlight that to everybody is to make sure that you understand that that's why there is such a sense of denial. I never did this. I didn't do that. I didn't I say that because they're not even aware that this is what they're doing. They just think that you're in love. They just think that we should get married. They just think that we are soulmates. I watched this happen with somebody that I love just in the past year, and it was so alarming because as this person came on like the absolute love of this person's life and took over their universe, I'm thinking, This is love bombing.

Oh, my God. But from both the person with narcissism and the person that they were love bombing, this felt like the world's best, most magical love story, and nobody could argue otherwise.

I absolutely do think that. I think they believe everything that they say. I do. I always tell people, Send them light, but over there. You have to protect yourself, though, too. So yes, have some passion for them. No, I agree.

I agree. What I'm trying to say is I think maybe too fine of a point that when I see people talk about narcissism, particularly on social media, There is an assumption that there is a very specific and conscious and intentional strategy that somebody is deploying. And what I'm trying to say is, I don't believe that's true because I think this is just how they operate, and they're not even aware that this is how they operate. It's unconscious, which makes it almost more dangerous that they are stuck in this loop themselves as an eight-year-old emotionally, and they're not doing anything to you, so to speak. This is how they move through every single relationship. And they are not going to be attracted to somebody who is strong and in their power because you're not buying into the love bombing, and you're not part of this loop. And so I guess I say that only because I see a lot of misinformation and finger-pointing in the language online. That's not what you're saying, but I think it's important for somebody listening to understand If you listen closely to what Rebecca Zung is saying, she's saying, based on her research, this is something that happens neurologically during childhood.

That's why there's so much denial on the part of the They're not aware. So after the love bombing, though, and you now are in business with somebody, and you now have given somebody equity, or you have put them into your bank accounts, or you think you're running off and getting married, there's all of a sudden a second stage What is that stage, Rebecca?

The devalue is that's when you start to see the wheels come off. That's when they start to exhale, and that's where you start to see the red flags. And there's no more of the 50 emails a day. That's where you start to see the lying. As soon as you get to this part, they've locked you in. They've gotten here, which is what they've been looking for. This is where they relax because they've been holding their breath, trying to get you, get you, get you. And now they've gotten you. And so now they exhale and you get to start to see that mass come down a little bit. And now you start to see all the red flags. Their stories aren't holding up. Now you start to see lies. Now you start to see manipulation. Now, all that money that they borrowed from you, well, they're not probably ever going to pay it back. But they're starting to lie about, oh, and that degree that they said they had, well, it's not really a degree. It's really something else. And that your brother-in-law that they said was actually a thing. Well, that's not really a thing.

Oh, that project that they said they were going to do for you. Well, that's probably not going to get done. And all these things are starting to happen. And the 50 calls a day. Well, now they don't call you at all. And now, how come you're so needy? And it just becomes this whole relationship that you didn't think it was at all. And you're trying to chase and get that back again. But then when you start to walk away, well, then they make promises, promises for the future. And it becomes this whole toxic stew, push, pull, push, pull, push, pull, which is also plays upon your brain because now you're getting these dopamine hits, so you become physiologically addicted to this person, and that causes a trauma bond in you.

I would love to have you unpack this. Because as you're describing this, Rebecca, my heart is sinking because I have watched someone that I love deeply go from a very strong, centered, powerful person to question questioning themselves relentlessly and putting up with bullshit lies and that, Oh, I never said that, and you're needy, and that pushback, and questioning themselves, and I have not known what to do. And so can you explain what you mean when you use that term addicted?

Yes. So there's a study by a professor from Stanford. His name is Robert Sapolsky, and he did a study on monkeys, and the monkeys would get a reward every single time they did something good, and nothing happened in their brain. Then he would give these monkeys a reward intermittently, and they didn't know when they were going to get this reward. And And when they didn't know, then the dopamine levels in their brain actually rose to the level of cocaine.

I am so glad you are bringing this study up, Rebecca, in the context of narcissism, because I'm very familiar with the study. And just to broaden this out for you listening, this is a really well-known study that's normally talked about in the context of addiction. It was done with monkeys, and here's what it proved. It proved that not getting the reward all the time is what got the monkeys addicted. I can give you another example that'll make sense. Envision a slot machine. When you go and you pull the lever or you push the button on the slot machine and you watch those things twirl, right? As you are craving a win and you don't get it, what do you do? Boom, you hit it again. All of a sudden, you get a win. Oh, my God, So now what do you do? You hit it again, and then you hit it again, and then you hit it again, and you hit it again, and now you get a win again. But it's not consistent, is it? See, it's the inconsistency. It's the fact that it might be really good. That's what causes the addiction to it.

And so this is really important to understand when in the context of narcissism, because the praise and the love bombing and the attention from the narcissist, it's totally unpredictable. Like, one minute It, you're the center of the world, and they love you, and you're this, and you're that, and the other thing. And then, boom, the wind changes, and you're in the phase of discard. You're like, literally, they don't even talk to you. And that's what makes you feel like a monkey addicted to cocaine who doesn't know when it's going to come next. And this is also why you can have a super smart, rational, accomplished girlfriend and watch her become a complete cocaine-addicted monkey when she gets in a relationship with a narcissist. You see the love bombing. Then you see the inconsistent behavior. Then you try to appeal to her rationally. But then she's back into the love bombing. And it's just like gambling or any other addiction. Because it's so inconsistent, you literally get addicted to the person because you're waiting for that next round of the love bombing to come. This makes so much sense. Right.

The conclusion was that when you are dealing with a narcissistic type of a person, that the anticipation of this love bomb, you actually become physiologically addicted to this person. And that is partially what contributes to this trauma bond, is that your brain becomes physiologically basically addicted to that hit of wanting that back.

I have seen this dynamic play out with somebody I love deeply in a relationship. The these first two phases of the relationship, the first one being love bombing everybody, and the second one now is this devaluing that makes the person spin. But then there's this third phase of a narcissistic relationship, this cycle that you can get in, and you label this the discard phase.

Yeah. So the discard phase can be either you're discarding them or they're discarding you. I mean, this is where it's the end of the relationship, and you will see the birth of the smear campaign for sure. But this is where you will definitely become public enemy number one, because you're either for them or against them. And so even with the covert narciss, the mask will definitely come off, and they will come after you because they want to make sure they take you down before you can take them down.

So, Rebecca, if you are in that discard phase, where they've withdrawn, the lies are coming out, the truth is starting to get revealed, you say there's only three options when you realize you're in this phase. What are they?

Well, you can stay. You can give exactly what they want, or you can fight back and do it in a way that's strategically, which you have to do. You have to do. I was the people pleaser. I wanted to be liked. I didn't want other people who were in our circle to think that I was the bad one. She was all likable, and I didn't want people to be mad at me. I had all this stuff that I I needed to get past so that I could speak up and stand on my own two feet. And thank God, I did.

Thank God you did, because now you're here to teach us how to do the same thing and how to try to support the people that we see stuck in this to do the same thing. For somebody listening who has been caught in this cycle, and they don't even know what their value is because they're so spun around, where do you begin? How How do you define it if you don't even know what it is because you're that like, ah?

Those baby steps, little baby steps. Once you start little baby stepping it and you start to see little steps, that's why little wins Every single day start to stack up. And when you start to see, you know what? I did it. I started to create a boundary today, and it worked. I started to do this a little bit today, and it worked. That's where you start to stack up those wins, and you start to turn it around, and you'll see it'll work. It starts working.

The two biggest things that changed for me in terms of me getting on the offensive was identifying the narcissism as a tantrum and visualizing the narcissist as an eight-year-old in a tantrum, which helped me separate myself. The second thing was really taking a pause after visualizing the tantrum and asking myself, Well, what do I want right now? If I don't want to deal with this, it's a yes or no or silence. And if I do want to deal with it, it's exactly what you're talking about in terms of thinking about, Okay, well, there's going to be a supply here. What am I willing to give to get what I want? And doing that consciously and emotionally distant makes you feel so empowered because you're no longer in it. You're now the one manipulating it, and they don't even know.

A hundred %. And it's fantastic. You are the one in control. And just remember, what's negotiable is contracts and issues and terms, not your self-worth, your self-esteem, or who you are.

Because there's so much denial when you're in it, and so much much, I think, explaining away bad behavior that I'm not sure people understand the strategies and the patterns that you can spot when you know them. So what are some of the most common patterns that narcissists use to keep your attention and that supply coming back to them?

Gaslighting is probably one of the biggest ones. I think all narcissists use gaslighting to destabilize you and make you think that you're crazy. So it would look like... And there's so many different forms of gaslighting, but the bottom line of gaslighting is trying to make you think that you're crazy. So it comes from the movie or the play Gaslight, where the husband was blowing out gaslights to try to make the wife think that she was crazy. So she would say, Wasn't that just lit? And he would say, No, no, it wasn't. So That's what they do. So they'll say, Oh, I'm going away with my friends for our anniversary weekend. And the wife would say, Oh, you're going away on our anniversary weekend? We never discussed that. Oh, yeah. We had a whole conversation about that, and you agreed. Don't you remember? No, we never had that conversation. Oh, yeah, we did. And you know we never had that conversation. That's gaslighting.

You're giving my heart palpitations because I really felt I felt like I was in the presence of this particular person that does this to me all the time. So what do you think the biggest myth is about narcissism or negotiating with narcissists?

A hundred %, it is that narcissists just want to win. Yeah, because they do want to win, but they also want to continue to manipulate you and see you squirm. And so the problem, the reason why people have trouble negotiating with narcissists, and they can't ever get out of these things, is because narcissists continue to move goalposts all the time because they enjoy the cold level supply, too. And so they've missed the mark. They forgot about the coal-level supply. And so unless you figure out a way to threaten a source of supply that's more important for them to keep than the supply that they get from jerking you around, which is the coal-level supply, then you're never going to be done, ever.

And I bet you saw over and over again being an attorney for 20 years representing people, particularly Particularly in high net-worth divorces. That divorces go on for years and years, and years with narcissists because by keeping the divorce and the arguing and all that crap alive, they're getting that supply that you're talking about.

And I didn't know what was going on as a lawyer. I had no idea. I had a guy, the divorce lasted five years. He told me, I'd rather pay you than her.

Yes. I think a lot of people say that.

And I remember saying to him, You don't need to put my kid through College, because I was like, sick of him myself. I mean, how do I get rid of you? But I didn't realize that that's what he was doing.

And what you're basically saying is that conflict and the ability to bitch to your lawyer about the, quote, crazy person on the other side, it actually creates that coal-level supply in you, the Narcissist, because you feel better than the crazy person. Am I getting this?

Yeah. Well, I'll tell you a crazy story. I'm going to tell you about a $2 million apology.

Okay, I'd like one of those.

So I had a case where we were mediating, and we thought we were just about done. The guy was going to pay the wife. I mean, she was getting a lot of assets, too. But over the course of the next several years, he was going to be paying her $2 million in alimony. Monthly, but it was going to add up to about $2 million. And he was a big, flaming, narcissist. Anyway, mediator comes in. It's like nine o'clock at We've been mediating for 12 hours. And he says to me, Hey, Rebecca, can I talk to you for a second? We go out into the reception area, and he's like, I've never seen this before. But the wife, crazy enough, she's willing to waive alimony completely. If he'll go in there, just the two of them, and apologize to her for all of the things and the way he treated her during the marriage, sincerely. I'm like, When what's the catch? And he said, No catch. She just wants an apology. I'm like, All right. She's willing to waive it. We'll put it in the agreement. Her lawyer is standing there, and she's like, Yeah, I told her no, but this is what she wants.

This really means a lot to her. I'm like, All right. So I go into the room And I said, I told him what was going on. And he says, No, I'm not going to do it. I said, What? Because you know why? Because he wanted the chance to be able to continue to screw with her every single month, not pay her, keep her on a string, do the whole thing. She wanted to be done with this dude, right? And I'm like, I'm going to kick your butt. You're going over there right now. And I'm thinking to myself, I need a CYA letter. He's going to come back over here and tell Tell me, why didn't you make me do this? So I said, you're going over there. You're doing this. So he went over there, finally, and did it like a puppy dog with his tail between his legs. And he did it. And we got the alimony he waved, it actually happened, but he did not want to.

What are the signs that you have experienced narcissistic emotional abuse?

Self blame, self doubt, confusion, anxiety, a sense of helplessness, frustration, powerlessness, problems with sleep, problems with concentration, decrements or lack of self care of any kind, feeling selfish if you do anything for yourself, being on edge, being hyper vigilant, always ready to fix, feeling you have to change yourself to please other people, a sense of a sense of isolation, a sense that you're weird. That's just the shortlist.

Wow. What is the first step if you're listening to this and you're going, Yep, narcissist Narcistic parents, or, Yep, I survived a narcissistic spouse, or I'm with one, or I've been in a relationship with one, and you're like, I exhibit all those things. What's the first step that somebody needs to take in order to start to heal from that damage.

You got to see it for what it is. And so that takes us to the place of radical acceptance. Radical acceptance is the awareness that this is not going to change. By this, I mean their behavior, these dynamics, this relationship is not going to change. Number one. Number two part of radical acceptance is these things they do, these hurtful things, you radically accepting doesn't mean they're not going to hurt. When somebody invalidates you, that you believe you loved or are supposed to love, when they invalidate you, when they insult you, when they criticize you, when they shame you, it will hurt. So don't think that radical acceptance means that all of that goes away, nor is radical acceptance, it's not a magic pill. It doesn't mean it's all going to get better. It's not that you're signing off on their behavior. It's not that you're agreeing with their behavior. It's that you're leaning into the understanding that this is it. This is not not going to change. And then the summit of radical acceptance is, this is not my fault. But I'm great. I'm glad when we can at least get the client to say, Okay, this is not going to change.

Why? Because it takes away one of the biggest barriers to healing. Which is?

Hope. Hold on. Let me see if I understand what you're saying. Hoping that somebody that has a narcissistic personality style, hoping that they can change, that is the biggest barrier to you healing? Yeah. Why?

Because now your psychological resources are still invested in the idea of them changing. So until we can get that off the table, you are going to still have way too much of you invested in something that's never going to happen, which means that there's not enough of you left to work on your healing, your process of individuation, your process of finally getting to live in yourself rather than in service to them. Does that make sense?

It makes a lot of sense because for decades with a particular person in my life, I hoped that they would change. Yes. I I could twist myself in knots and show up differently and try a little bit harder and do this and do that and constantly think about it. And what was always there in the background was the hope that things could be different. Correct. And it wasn't until I I met you three years ago or four years ago now, and you said, They are not changing, period. They're not even aware that they have this personality style, and they don't care. They don't care. And there is nothing that you can do to change this. When you said that, it was very interesting. I could see it for what it was. It's almost like when somebody says about themselves, well, I just am in the way that I am. People in my life have always said, well, that person, Mel, is just the way that they are. That's just who they are. I could never accept that because I wanted it to be different. Correct. You're right. It was the hope that it could be better.

The hope that this person would change, the hope that things could look different that kept me trying so much. Even though I think deep down, I knew that it wasn't going to make a difference.

Right.

That is a sad ass statement.

Yes, it is.

That hope that somebody else will change is what keeps us from healing.

Would you agree with that? That once the hope got lifted for you, do you feel like your healing proceeded? Yeah.

Once I understood the situation for what it was, I was so enmeshed in the situation because it had been going on for decades that I just couldn't even see the situation that I was in. But when I started to understand more about narcissistic personality styles based on you and some work with therapist, and I started seeing the behavior patterns, and I stopped making it so personal. I extracted what I wanted and all my feelings and just saw it for what it is. When this happens, this person does this. You can start to predict it because you know it in terms of the patterns. Once I was able as much as I didn't want to, and I think that's the other thing that we don't talk about a lot when it comes to narcissism, is that you can understand all that. But if you still somewhere in the back of your mind go, But I don't want it to be that way, you will forever be at the whim of that behavior.

I wouldn't even say it's so much now that I don't want it to be that way, is that I believe it could be different. The situation I'm hearing from you is you don't want it to be this way. No. You don't. The key, the lifting of the hope, the radical acceptance is it can't be any other way.

That's painful because I do think that's probably why we do stay in these relationships.

You think people stay because they think it can change?

Well, you're the expert. Why do people stay? I can tell you why I've been in this relationship for a long time.

I think that that's part of it. But I think that even when hope gets lifted or taken out, radical acceptance comes. People still need to stay. The reasons for that are often things like practical factors, money, shelter, health insurance, family courts, co-parenting minor children, not wanting to share custody with someone who's not up to it, but the courts don't care. It could be duty and obligation. It could be stigmas against divorce within a cultural system. There are so many other factors, and the challenges, those factors are very real, even when they don't feel real. Like duty and obligation are still perceptions and constructs, but they are very real. It is challenging because to eradicate the hope and that this is how it's going to be, and yet you always have to be in it, what happens then? And this is the hardest part. You say, what's step one, radical acceptance? What's step two? And this is the worst part of this whole process is grief. Because grief, when we think of the word grief, we think of someone who's died. Someone dies and we have grief. They're no longer in in our life. We can't talk to them in the same way.

There is a loss. They're not part of our routines in the same way. We think of grief as loss. Sometimes people will extend grief to a breakup or a divorce or something like that. But it matters here more than I've ever seen the word matter, because not only is there... It's a loss. Sometimes it's a loss of a relationship. Some people do walk away from these relationships. But what people lose when they give up the hope, when they go to radical acceptances, they lose a narrative. They lose a sense of a future. They lose a sense of belonging. The hope is what was keeping this person going all these years. And that's why even as a therapist, I don't just go in there and pull the hope out. The goal is to build a huge scaffold around the client before the hope gets lifted so that then the person can sit in that because the grief is monumental. If done right, healing done right means a cascade of grief, the likes of which you can't imagine because it's a A belief that never really goes away. You don't get a second crack at childhood. You don't get another parent.

A lot of these things don't get to happen again. And so you're having to live with them. These people have not died. Talk to anyone who's gone through a divorce from a narcissistic person who, until the end, will say, I was still attracted to them. There's still a part of them I love, but this was not good for me, and I could see it, and I saw it wasn't going to change, and the hope was gone. And then that narcissistic person goes and meets someone new inside of the first week. That's grief.

In the topic of hope and radical acceptance, I think there's a bunch of things that you hope for. You hope for a behavior change. You hope that there's something that you can do that will somehow make things better. You hope to feel loved. And you also hope at times for an apology.

Let's talk about that, because that apology, there's two things that really make the grief worse, narcissistic abuse. The first is the lack of closure. Closure is that moment when it's a deathbed confession. It's the, I hurt you. It's the, I should have treated you better. You deserve more. Whatever it was, some awareness that they did wrong by you. You're not going to get closure, number one, in a narcissistic relationship. But the second piece, and this is what really, really harms survivors, is the lack of justice. It's not fair. These things feel incredibly unfair. The family continues to rally around the narcissistic person and uphold them and save the best seat for them at the wedding. The friends of you as a couple still stay friends with them despite them cheating on you seven times, including with someone you knew. The workplace just moves the narcissistic emotional abuser to another office and they get promoted. The narcissistic emotional abuser who left you finds a new person who's 30 years younger than you and gets engaged inside of six months. It doesn't feel fair. If you look at Judith Harmon's work on her most recent book on Trauma and healing, she really talks about how injustice is such an impediment to healing from trauma.

We can heal from trauma so much better if the The story around it feels just. I hate to say it, but if the narcissistic person fails, takes a tumble, gets a public humiliation, it makes healing so much easier.

I'm so happy you brought this up because it makes me think of somebody in my life who went through a divorce, gosh, close to a decade ago, and she is still hung up on the ex. The ex was moving in a girlfriend to the family house, 20 years younger, almost immediately. Lifelong friends now rallying around him. She, to this day, cannot get over it. I have always looked at the situation and thought, This was 10 years ago. You're not that weak of a human being. You understand it. You know that this spouse has a narcissistic personality style. Your kids know that this spouse is a narcissistic personality style. You know that nothing is going to change. You just explain why she cannot let it go.

She can't let it go.

Because It doesn't feel there's no justice. No.

Because see, I would argue your friend is fully at radical acceptance. She does what he's about. Nothing he does surprises her. Correct. But the peace and the cognitive dissonance created by them continually being rewarded and rewarded, that is a huge barrier to healing. And there's actually no magic piece to that. I have said in the past, listen, the ultimate justice is that they still have to be them. But you know what? To them, if they're living large with their much younger spouse in the house and the money is coming in, they genuinely believe they've won. And because the other person in the relationship had a full complement of empathy and kindness and goodness and they feel the wounds, the person who is harmed by the narcissist is hurt and carries that as a real thing. The narcissistic person just merely found new supply, which is all you were in the first place anyhow, and it feels awful. And there is no quick fix to that except to identify it as an injustice. It's not that you need to get over it. Oh, come on, this, that, and the other. It's this is real. And part of the radical acceptance process is how unfairly this narcissism thing plays out in the world at large.

It's why I do what I do, because frankly, I'm tired of watching them get away with it. And so people say, Come on, Ramony, you're not going to stop a bunch of tech billionaires and all that and their narcissistic selves from ruling the world. I said, That's never my goal. I use the products they create, right? But I'll tell you what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to steer people away from relationships with them. They want to go out there and be the emperors of the universe. Great. Thank you for making my life a little bit more convenient. Please don't hurt other... Please stay away from them. They're not relationship material. They're make a fabulous app material. And let's just keep them there, okay? Because this They're not made for this. And so I think that it's really to keep people from getting these relationships. But the injustice piece is one of the single greatest. That hope and injustice hold people back, and it can really make the grief a stumbling place to which Again, the loss of hope, the experience of grief, the injustice all fuel one of the major fallouts of narcissistic abuse, which is rumination.

It never fails. I always learn something from you. I'm so grateful that you're here as you're listening to Dr. Romani. Aren't you grateful she's here, too? I want to take a short break to hear a word from our sponsors. They allow me to bring this amazing information to you at zero cost. Don't you dare go anywhere. We'll be right back. Welcome back. I'm so glad you're here with me today. I'm your friend Mel, and I'm here with Dr. Ramani Diversula. She is the world's leading expert and researcher on Narcism. We're talking about her brand new best-selling book, It's Not You, and we're talking about the new research in that book.

Let's talk a little bit about rumination because I think it's one of the most important things to understand about healing from narcissistic abuse. It relates to the friend you just talked about. Absolutely. Rumination is... Can't stop thinking, can't stop thinking. Now, here's where rumination gets interesting. One thing the research tells us, even from the times of Charles Darwin, we have argued that rumination has a function, right? It does.

What is it?

The function of rumination is a solution. Think on something long enough and you'll come to the solution.

Okay, got it.

And then you do the thing and the rumination, prize, and you feel better. The problem with narcissism Narcistic abuse is, ruminate, ruminate, ruminate, ruminate, no solution. Ruminate, no solution. Ruminate, no solution. So where many other ruminators are getting the solutions, the narcissistically abused ruminator just keeps hitting the same wall, which fuels powerlessness, and rumination without a solution is depression. Wow. So you see what's happening is that that's why the survivor's They look depressed. When they come into a clinician's office, rumination is a central part of the depression profile. In fact, Darwin and others have argued that all that rumination, it actually leads the person to almost turn inward and becomes part of the process of trying to find solutions in depression, but it gets the person stuck, stuck, stuck in the same way.

I'm thinking about this person, and they have isolated themselves. Yeah, exactly. They are basically this once vibrant, amazing person is literally living a very small life, is stuck in the thinking. The last time I saw this person, she was thinking about what's going to happen at her daughter's wedding when the ex brings a new None of... By the way, the daughter is not even engaged.

And may never get married.

Right. I'm saying you're exactly right because they're spinning their wheels in isolation on a problem that has no solution.

So it becomes depression. So The tricky bit is rumination is a key part of almost every mental health issue, anxiety, depression, you name it. But it holds a unique spot for survivors of narcissistic abuse because they're going through something that most people don't understand. Even a lot of therapists don't understand it, but certainly they're friends. A lot of people are like, Come on, get over it. He's a terrible guy. You should be happy. You're out of it. But they don't feel happy. Find someone you can talk about this about so many times until you actually let it out. Probably the best place to do that is therapy. I have clients, I think of some of my clients, and they'll over and over say, I feel like a loser. I'm telling you this again. I said, You think you're telling me the same story, but every time you tell it, you've actually put another piece of it down. I'm hearing the difference. You're not. And every time they tell the story, we're putting another piece of it down to the point where they finally release it. Friends aren't always the best place to do it, right?

Because friends are like, How many times have you done it?

I'm literally like, I've heard about this crap for 10 years, and you're in therapy, and this is an issue, and it makes me profoundly sad to see that this ex has moved on and is very happy, doesn't think about you at all, other than to complain about any time something with the kids, and you are living in a mental hole.

Right. And it's still living in service to the partner. So it's still not pulled themselves psychologically out. This is really about pulling out all the connections. You know how when you take, you take, a wallpaper or something off a wall, you leave all those sticky bits. You got to get in there and get all those sticky bits off.

I want to take a step back and talk a little bit about the definition of being a survivor of narcissistic abuse. How would you describe someone or what being a survivor of narcissistic abuse is?

So a survivor of narcissistic abuse is, in essence, a survivor of a narcissistic relationship. They've experienced all All the patterns we've already talked about in the prior episode, the devaluing, the minimization, the gaslighting, the manipulation, the domination, the betrayal, the bread crumming, all that stuff, like being minimized, devalued, all that, that happens. Those are the behaviors. That's what narcissistic abuse is, by the way. It's the behaviors in the relationship. Being chronically exposed to that and not understanding what the hell is going on leads to a fallout in the person we also talked about, the anxiety, the helplessness, the rumination, the regret, all that stuff. And so the person is experiencing all these negative experiences and don't want to keep feeling that way. To be a survivor of a narcissistic relationship or narcissistic abuse is to have all these negative emotional, physical, cognitive, even spiritual. People report a loss of faith, a loss of belief in the world, a loss of trust. All of those things are a byproduct of having gone through one these relationships. And if a person is not taught what narcissism is, how it shows up in them, what was happening in the relationship, and above all else, being coaxed into radical acceptance, these behaviors are never going to change.

These patterns are never going to change. You can set a clock by this person. Years ago, Mel, I worked with a client who was a tough sell on this, and I did something very unorthodox as a therapist. The person I'm not going to come in and say, I think that this is going to happen. I said, No, actually, I think this is what's going to go down. She said, There's no way that that's what's going to go down. I said, You want to make a bet? And so at the time, I had an office that was on top of a coffee shop. It was a pain in the neck for me. It was actually across the street, down across the street. It was a very busy road. It was hard to cross the street. So someone who would bring me tea. It would be the greatest thing ever. I said, I'll make you a bet. If it goes down the way I say it goes down, you buy me a tea and When you bring it to your session. This is not how we're supposed to do therapy. Board of psychology, please don't listen. It works.

Do it.

So we did that. By the time I was done, she probably had brought me 60 cups of tea. I think only once did I get it wrong, and I had to get the coffee once. It was a bummer. I drove. But got it, 60 cups of tea.

So is that somebody who is so disconnected with reality? What the heck? No, it was the hope.

What the heck? It was the hope. Here's where it got interesting. This is, to me, the more important part of it. Ended therapy and said, You know what? Thank you. Thank you for the fact that this entire therapeutic experience cost me hundreds more because of the tea. But she said it was your conviction. She's like, You already had the coaster out for the tea. You were ready for that because I'd know she'd come in with the tea. She didn't tell me in advance. The tea would show up. I was like... She said, You were so sure. That assuredness, that conviction, it showed me this had to be a pattern. You didn't have a crystal ball. You weren't a future reader. You knew this as a pattern. Over time, she said, I knew it could be the other way. It's almost like she said, By the 60th cup of tea, I got it. I saw it, and then was better able to predict what was going to happen. So my point in sharing that is that we know this, but the other person needs some They need a minute. Radical acceptance isn't like, Here's what narcissism is, and that's them, and look at all these things that happen.

In fact, one of the techniques I talk about in the book is something I affectionately call the Ick List. And I say to the client, You need to make no moves in this relationship Nothing has to change. But I need you to write it all down. Every time they do something, and if you're not writing it down, I'm writing it down in here, and I'm going to keep it. And over time, this list gets to the point where you're like, Oh, this is a pattern. And seeing Taking it in writing makes it more real.

What you said about hope is genius, because with this particular example that I've just shared with this friend of mine, I personally believe, if I were to make a bet, that she hopes they get back together. Correct. And so if this is resonating with you as you're listening, what I want to know, Dr. Romani, is if you're holding out hope that that parent is going to change, if you're holding out hope that things could be different, if you're holding You're drawing out hope that this person that is narcissistic in your life, that somehow something is going to be different, how do you start to dismantle this thing that you've been holding on to forever that keeps you completely enmeshed in this relationship and this freaking fantasy in your brain.

Part of it is the writing it down. I know it sounds like a strange thing to suggest, but there's something very different because euphoric recall is a very real phenomenon.

What is euphoric recall? What is that?

Euphoric recall is, it's almost like a twist on what our minds usually don't do, but in narcissistic relationships, people cherry-pick the good stuff. We did have a really nice time in Miami 10 years ago, and they really did. We laughed so much at that TV show. They just, oh, my gosh, our sex was actually really good. Euphoric recall, you pick the good things. That's why writing it down, and writing it down with people who watch the relationship and get the relationship, just getting it all down because there's times you're not going to be able to get it down. I've helped a lot of clients write these iklas. I'm like, well, remember that time you told me this? And remember the time you told me that? And they keep like, oh, yes, I do. I'm so sorry. Yes, I get it. And so we pile it all up and you can't unsee it then. It's almost like looking at the 5,000 transgressions of somebody you're going to hire. You do realize if you bring them back, these are all the things you did. An HR person be like, yeah, no, we can't bring this person back.

We can bring that. The more we have the data, that's one big piece to dismantling the hope. There's the other thing, we can talk about this in the book, is this idea of going into, something I call going into the tiger's cage. So when a client is like, No, no, no, No, it's going to be different. Remember, Mel, as a therapist, my job is never to be dogmatic and say, Absolutely not. I'll say, Okay. I'm always going to hold space with the client to feel safe to go try something and that there's no judgment. So I'll say, No, I think it's going to be different. I'm like, Okay.

I couldn't be a therapist. I'd be like, You stupid idiot. It is not going to be different. I literally want to reach out and grab my friend and strangle some sense in her. I know that sounds like a very violent thing, but it breaks my heart.

I know. But this tiger's cage piece, as I say to them, okay, so cage cat. Now we're far enough from that cat. You're like, is that a cat or is that a tiger? It's only one to find out. And they'll say, No, I want to find out which one it is. I'll say, Go in the cage, which means have the interaction. Think it's going to be different. Tell them your good news and think they're going to be happy for you or confront them on something, whatever it is. And it pains me as a therapist because you know how it's going to go down. And they go in and invariably, if it was a tiger, what's a tiger going to do? It's going to tear off your arms and legs and tear your throat out. If it's a kitten, Well, you just got yourself a new little pet. Sometimes they go in and they have the difficult conversation. I'd say one in a thousand times. It's a little kiddie. They misjudge the person. More often not, I get this torn apart person and they're saying, it's a a cup of tea, right? You told me. And I went in there and I say, But this is material, so let's break it down.

Those kinds of almost real-time analysis of these things are how we dismantle the hope. I mean, it's almost like an addict in that way, Mel. How many times does it have to pile up before a person hits rock bottom? It's different. It depends on the person. It's really trying to get the survivor to their rock bottom. Rock bottom is where hope goes away.

I love the ick list. And one of the reasons why I love this idea of taking and writing down in the physical world a list of all the things this person said or did or didn't do or whatever it was that gives you the gigantic ick is that it's in black and white. Correct. I can see in my own life that when I think about another person who got into a relationship where there was a lot of love bombing and the person they were dating came on way too strong. And huge red flag for me watching. Obviously, when you're in the middle of it, you're enjoying the ride as the person that's getting love bombed. But then the devaluing started. And the lying started, and the discarding started, and then the love bombing comes back. And I remember being in conversations with this person, and they had zero recall of the devaluing. But You're only focusing on the good. Remember the time they disappeared for three days? Remember the time where they denied doing drugs, and now you're learning they're selling them to everybody? Remember the time? All of this stuff. And I think Having it in black and white is a really good strategy because I can even think about my own life dealing with somebody close to me with a narcissistic personality style and how often I'm like, Yeah, but five years ago when this was going on, they were really great, and they had a hard childhood.

I want to keep coming back to the hope piece because I do see how hoping that something's going to change keeps you trapped. Correct. And what other strategies are there for somebody that is listening, sees themselves and is like, But I do hope they change. And it's hard for somebody like me because Dr. Romani, I'm like, But anybody can change.

Anyone can change. A narcissistic person won't change.

Oh, that's a big difference. Anybody can change. A narcissistic person won't. Oh, that stings. And hoping that they will keeps you trapped.

Right. I think that that can't/won't distinction becomes important. But they're saying, You tell me they can't change. They can't change. They can't change. Maybe that's a languaging issue. I suppose anyone could, but they won't, and I guarantee you they won't.

When you have the revelation that the voice that you've listened to for years, the voice that's held that got you back, that made you feel like shit, that it's actually not even yours, that can make your heart seize for a minute. It's one of those like, Wait, what? And then when I add on top of it, that you're not to blame for the crap that somebody programmed into your head. You were just a little person with three pounds of macaroni that was trying to absorb everything around it. Our brains love patterns, and it picks up on patterns of speaking. And that's what your brain did. And so if you're having this revelation, holy shit, I thought that Everything's my fault for my entire life because somebody made me believe it was, and then I held on to that belief. Don't freak out. This is great news because so So many people spend their entire lives not even realizing that it's possible to change the way you think. It is possible to put a new playlist in your mind. It is possible to filter the world completely differently and to make your brain work for you.

Now, are you going to have positive thoughts all day long? No. Are you going to be like, a thousand % confident? No. But can you stop torturing yourself? Yes. Can you start encouraging yourself? You better believe you can. Can you separate what your narcissistic piece of shit ex-spouse said to you from what you actually believe about yourself? That you want to believe about yourself? Yeah, you can. Can you do it overnight? No. You're going to have to work at this, just like the people in your past worked over time at saying things to you that beat you down. This stuff takes hold over time. But the good news is, your brain is super responsive. When you combine what you're learning about resetting your mind with healing your nervous system and the science of making and sticking to new habits, all of which you are absolutely smart enough and capable enough to apply to your life because your friend Mel Robbins, I am not going to make this scientific. I'm going to give you the science so that you know this stuff works and you can count on it and trust it, but I make this stuff so dead simple that literally your kids and I can do it.

And so you can do everything that you are learning on the Mel Robbins podcast. You can change your You can kick the bully out of your head. You can program in new thoughts. You can actively work to change the reticular activity system in your brain, that network of neurons that filters the world. You can take better care of your brain. Taking care of your physical brain will also help the thoughts in your mind. You can develop new healthy habits using the three simple aspects of a habit based in science and focusing on triggers and rewards. You can do this. You can make it easier, and you can heal your nervous system, which is the trifecta of transformation. We hit the habits, the mindset, and the nervous system. Holy shit, you're like the terminator of transformation. You could do anything. I believe that. I just have way too much evidence to the otherwise. And if you're cynical about that, take a look at who taught you to be cynical. Just because life hasn't worked out for you the way that you wanted to up until this point, who fucking says it's not going to work out for you and the best days aren't ahead?

I'll tell you who says, you do. You decide whether or not you're going to continue to let all this crap you're not responsible for to hold you back, or you're going to take responsibility for what happens next. Heal your nervous system. You can do that, and you don't have to spend a dollar. Change your mind. You can do that, and you don't have to spend a dollar to do it. Make new habits. Habits that actually help you get what you want, what you deserve. You can do that, and you do not have to spend money to do it. What takeaways do you want people to... Like really talking to somebody who just had a wake-up call, because we also learned that if you truly are somebody that has a narcissistic personality, you're thinking that none of this applies to But if you're listening and you're starting to think of people in your life, whether it's at work or friendships or siblings or the person that you're in a relationship with or parents or grandparents, what are some of the key takeaways that you hope people have gained from this doctor?

You're not to blame for someone else's personality. You can't change them. I You have the right to your independent, autonomous life, separate from other people, opinions, feelings, needs. And above all else, I want to let people know that there are many people out there who hear this and say, Well, I got to go. I got to leave this relationship. And some people do. They end contact or really suspend contact with a family member or even a parent. They may end a romantic relationship. They may start doubting their own marriage. They may even consider quitting a job or whatever. But then they start saying, But I want to go back, but I miss the person, but I'm having second thoughts, That's what we're getting back together, but I showed up at the family wedding anyhow. And what I tell people is this isn't about an all or nothing, and you will be pulled back because there's no talking your way out of a trauma bond. A trauma bond is something you feel. Some people will say, The idea of no longer talking to my mom or no longer being in this marriage, I feel sick. I can't do this.

I literally feel sick inside of me. So that's a real physical feeling. And it's understanding that these incompatibilities leave us feeling uncomfortable. We do get pulled back in. It's for me to keep saying to people, this is not going to change, and it is not your fault, and it is all internal to them, and this is what the apparatus looks like. But even on those days when you I feel sad, because this is a landscape characterized by grief. This was my childhood. I never got to have a real childhood. I didn't ever let my dreams launch. I got into a crappy marriage. I may never have a normal adult relationship. I screwed up my kids. This is real grief. There's no soft pedaling. You don't get a do-over on this stuff. And so for people, some of these negative emotions do echo through a lifetime. I wish I could sit here and say something fluffy like, And one day you'll never think about this again. What I want to tell people is that you're going to learn to coexist with that pain, and you're slowly going to find your voice. And it's almost like if you had a really bad accident or injury, even if you If you're not going to fully do your physical therapy and heal, every so often you're going to step on that leg the wrong way.

You're going to be like, ouch, and you're reminded. And it doesn't all just go away. You start learning the workarounds, and you understand that there's going to be good days and bad days. Because I think setting an overly sunny path forward for healing can lead people who feel like they're not healing fast enough, feeling ashamed, and so they can't even heal right. There is no healing, right? This will take as long as it takes. There will be good days and bad. But if you're willing to give yourself permission to take yourself and reality back, there actually is a path forward. And survivors of narcissistic abuse often go on to do amazing things. They write amazing things. They There's a creativity, and it's almost like a WTF of it all. All right, at this point, why not? I survived this mess. Why not? And they'll do some really cool, fun... They'll blog, they'll self-publish books. They'll start businesses. They'll go back to school. I remember one woman, I worked with her. She's like, I went back to school. I was 75 when I graduated, but I finally finished college after being told I was a a moron, a fool, an ass for 50 years.

And she's like, I'm not going to work, but I did it. And the pride that was felt. The survivor stories are remarkable. They're small, they're big. My favorite was the person who said she She's an amazing cook, and her malignant, narcissistic marriage for many, many years. She baked his favorite cake, and she gave it to people who were homeless in her neighborhood. And she's like, eat this because I've never eaten this cake They loved it. And so some people actually said, I actually cooked their favorite meal and threw it out. Some people don't like to throw out food. I get that. Some people had a big blowout party on the night of what would have been their malignant, narcissistic ex's birthday party and said, I got to put this behind me. This can take so many forms. Some people go back to school and become therapists. Some people become coaches. They help people through it.

You know what I love about this, Dr. Romani, is that when you understand something, and there is this intense fascination with narcissism, and so many of us have experiences with it. But when you understand it, and when you have a few simple tools from an expert like you, it does become an opportunity for growth. It becomes an opportunity for self-awareness, for self-compassion, that just because the weather in Chicago can't be changed and you can't change what that other person is doing, that multiple things can be true. But the thing that we know is always true is that If you're willing to put in the work, you can make the situation that you're in better for yourself because you can change the way that you show up. You can change the boundaries that you have. You can change the way that you internalize things or not.

Yeah. And people who are going through these relationships are sometimes thinking, I almost don't want to be happy because it's such a contrast to what I'm in in this relationship. So it's a sense of, okay, maybe I'm not going to take care of me because me not taking care of me fits. It's again, that making it all fit. I say, find those ways. Because I call them these tiny acts of rebellion, the way you squeeze in. Because if you exercise and they know about it like, Oh, why are you wasting time? You must have a lot of leisure time if you can exercise. But then you realize, I have 18 minutes before they get home, and you jump on the treadmill, or you throw on the yoga channel on your whatever YouTube you watch, and you do it. You find these tiny acts of rebellion that you could do. Every day, you have a goal, and each day for 365 days, you do one thing towards the goal, and maybe you finish that degree online. And here's the win. Never, ever tell the narcissistic person your dreams. Never, ever tell them your aspirations because they will mock you and they will dismantle you, and they will even try to get in the way of them.

The rebellion is to go and pursue those dreams without them ever knowing. And once you've done it, you've You've done it, you don't even have to share it. And what's really fun to watch is when the narcissist hears from someone else like, wow, did you hear about that whole thing they set up? And the person like, why didn't you tell me? And it didn't seem like that big a deal. And you just get it in there, but never share your dreams with them.

Wow. I'm thinking about this moment in a speech where I was in the audience, and it was a women's conference, and this woman stood up, and she was talking about how she had this massive dream of getting this degree online, and that her husband wouldn't allow it. No. I remember thinking how sad it was to realize that she was trapped in this life. And the thing that I want to say is that these tiny acts of rebellion, if you feel like you're trapped in this, and there's multiple things that are true, these tiny 18 minutes moments of rebellion are almost like digging a tunnel. They are. That allow you over time to escape, because every time you do something that is for you first, and you don't feel the need to share it or get permission, and you keep showing up every day, and you do that exercise, or you do that meditation or you take that online class and you don't seek the permission or validation from that narcissist, if you start to exercise that muscle, at some point you're going to wake up and you're going to realize, oh, my God, I'm actually above ground and outside the jail.

Why did I stay in there? Okay, I'm not going to validate myself, but I'm ready to make a big change now.

You start to see, I can do stuff. By doing those tiny acts of rebellion, there's something in you that gets awoke, and you're like, I can do stuff, and maybe I am strong enough to do this or to do that. You meet other people. You get validated in different ways. You get the A on the paper, and the professor says, Wow, why aren't you going to graduate school? After all those years of being invalidated, to have someone say, There's something special about you, just that one conversation can change the course of somebody's life. But that's only going to happen when you do all these tiny acts of rebellion. And that might be one of the most important steps to survivorship. This isn't about storming out and like, I'm leaving you. But you can do all these little things because I know leaving can feel overwhelming for people. And whatever that might be, it might be reading an entire set of literature, it might be learning another language. You can do that on your own time, too. But whatever it looks like, that somehow getting that new skill, actualizing that dream, and not letting them know about it or harm it, it can awaken something in you, the real you, that may actually allow you to start really distancing from this relationship, if not physically, definitely, psychologically.

I just also felt really empowered because I realized that's also something that we can do as friends and sisters and siblings and seeing other people that are in these situations, validating somebody, not doing the thing that I probably would have done in the past, which is, Why don't you leave him? Why don't you cut him off? Just validating the small moves of independence and rebellion that somebody's making and being somebody who is an ally in that, is a way that you can support someone. Another way you can do that is you can listen to this podcast. You can share this podcast. You can listen to Navigating Narcism. Follow that podcast. Hey, it's Mel. Thank you so much for being here. If you enjoyed that video, by God, please subscribe because I don't want you to miss a thing. Thank you so much for being here. We've got so much amazing stuff coming. Thank you so much for sending this stuff to your friends and your family. I love you. We create these videos for you, so make sure you subscribe.