At that moment, I thought the game is about to change. I had no idea what was going to come with the Instagram and the influencing and all. I had no idea what was coming there. But I thought, well, no, nobody needs to leave the house. They can put forth a false version of themselves, the grandeose version, the fantasy version, and sit at home and let the validation come in. My concern was that this was going to make their narcissistic symptomatology worse overall. And I think that has been born out.

Wow. So can I ask you a question? Because this is one of the things that really changed my life. When you taught me that narcissists are not born, they're made. Can you explain that to everybody? Because this is a game change. I understand this.

So nobody's born this way. I mean, I.

Guess- So even in a family structure where you have a grandfather, a father, like these dominant or mother person, you are not born a narcissist.

Everyone listening to this, I will say there are four kids in our family. I have a brother who's narcissistic, and the rest of us are really cool, and nice, and kind to each other. So Itry to think of how many people out there who have siblings are like, my sister is really kind and my other sister is really, really narcissistic. So if that was the case, it should appear at all siblings or at least 50 % of them it's not that. So how does it get made? It's made. So here's the most likely explanation, is that there may very well be, and this has not been isolated yet, but there may very well be a biological vulnerability to it, and that would be probably delivered through something called a child's baby's temperament. Temperament is the genetic part of our personality. Anyone who spent time around a baby will know some kids soothe really easily. Some kids are just, they're easy, they're easy, smiley, friendly babies. They're really sweet kids, right? Right. And as they grow up, they stay sweet. And the teachers like them, and they have friends, and they're just sweet, sweet, sweet. Then there are those kids who will not stop crying, and they're demanding.

And as they grow up, look at me, look at me, look at me, look at me, look at me. And they're always doing things for attention, and they're disruptive, and they won't sit still. And as they enter preschool in school, the teachers always sit down, stop that. So they're already starting to get bad vibes from their constant attention-seeking behavior. It's probably an interaction effect. The kid may not be getting enough attention or attachment needs met. You have this biological vulnerability. In the hands of a skilled, attached, warm, present, loving, consistent parent that might be manageable. That energy might get turned into athletic interest or creative interest, and that child won't feel pathologized for their style. But I hate to say it probably for the majority of kids with that style, it's a lot of stop that, sit down. Can't you be more like your sister? You're going in the corner. You're making a mess. You're going to the principal. So that kid is getting invalidated every time they turn around. That invalidation plus the temperament plus the possibility that they don't have an environment where there's a possibility for secure attachment plus the possibility of trauma, chaos, and neglect.

That's one pathway to develop a narcissist.

So if I can just make sure I'm understanding what you're basically saying is, even regardless of temperament, if you're not getting your emotional needs met, if you do not feel safe and secure in your house, if you have a parent that abandons you, a parent that's abusive, somebody with mental illness and addiction, somebody who's unpredictable, that you, as a child, don't feel safe or you don't feel seen all those emotional needs, and that's what leads to narcissism?

But not always. In fact, I wouldn't say the vast majority of the time. Many, many, many, many people grew up in situations like that of trauma, of neglect, of abuse, of chaos. They do not go on to become narcissistic. They typically go on to become rather anxious adults with poor self appraisal who don't know their value and worth a whole other different burden to carry. But Are you talking about me? No, I was actually talking about myself, Madira. Yeah, that was all me. But at the end of it, what we see is that the problem is that these paths aren't linear. I always say narcissism is a story, the development of narcissism is a story we can tell backwards, but never forwards. I have some clients who have been through horrific early childhood trauma, horrific physical abuse, sexual abuse, violence. They grew up in chaos. To tell you that these are some of the most empathic, loving human beings I've ever met would be actually missing the mark. They're just solid people. If anything, they don't understand their value. Their harm is very internalized. It's like, I'm not good enough, I'm not doing enough. But there's so much goodness, so much empathy.

They've gone on to become amazing parents, all of that. That early chaos does not damn someone by a long shot. But it does set up what are called adverse childhood experiences. Definitely, if we view this from a probability standpoint, there's more negative outcomes that could come, either internalized, disliking oneself, or externalized, and that's more of what narcissism could potentially look like. Now there's a secondary path to narcissism. Okay. And that secondary path is actually one we probably should be monitoring in modern times quite a bit, which is the overindult child, the child who gets whatever they want. The money is spent on them lavishly. You're so great. You're so smart. There was a study done out of Amsterdam. Now it'll be interesting to see what happens when these kids turn into adults. He was studying children. But what he found, this guy, I think his name is Eddie Bruelman at the University of Amsterdam. And what he found was that children who were told they are more special than other children, those were the kids that were already showing entitlement and other soft signs of narcissism. It's not that you're telling your child they're special, it's that you're more special than somebody else.

That was the penny drop moment, which is very much what you could imagine a more narcissistic parent doing. My child is more special than the other children. My child deserves special treatment. My child should play the whole game. My child should get this. My child should get that. But you're looking at kids where they're not taught the most... There's two critical things, three critical things, I'd say, every child needs.

Okay, so there's three -the critical things for.

Every child needs.

Secure attachment. So explain it as secure attachment.

Secure attachment happens when a child has at least one primary caregiver that is consistently available that the child feels that they can call that caregiver when they need them, that secure attachment develops over the early years. I'm more talking birth to like two or three. This is something where you got to lock this in early. That securely attached child in those early experiments done by John Bolby and Mary Ainsworth seminal work in the field. What they found was that the child was securely attached. When mom would leave them with a strange situation, that would be preschool or babysitter or something like that, the child would whimper a little like, Where are you going? But then they would actually calm down very quickly with the soothing of a caregiver. And then when the parent came back to pick them up, the child would be thrilled to see them. In children who are more anxiously or avoidantly or insecurely attached, they would be almost difficult to soothe at the point the parent came back. And more importantly, I mean, when the parent left, so they'd be difficult to soothe when the parent left. And when the parent came back, the child would actually either go into absolutely another meltdown, almost like, How could you leave me?

Or they turn their head away from the parent. You see, whereas that securely attached child would actually be happy to see the parent when they return. Got it. Now that secure attachment is number one, and that's created by consistency and availability in that early environment. You need one parent doing that and one primary caregiver, to be honest, is anyone, whoever that child identifies as such. Number two is that children need to they need to learn how to soothe themselves and they need to learn how to be disappointed. Okay? And we're not letting them do that. Sometimes you fail. Sometimes you don't get the teacher you want. Sometimes they run out of chocolate ice cream by the time you get up. And you know what? Sometimes you lose at shoots and ladders. I remember saying, I'm going to win this game. And the other people like, don't let them win. I'm not going to let them win. I'm getting up to the top of the shoots and ladders, and I'm going to win. And I'm saying, well, that felt good. I won my daughter. That's not fair. I say, oh, ho, ho, ho. I won this game.

Let's be present with me winning. You want to play again? Sure, we can do that again. But you need to learn to be present that not every outcome is the way you're going to want it to be. That's number two. Number three is empathy. You've got to foster empathy in children and foster compassion. That can be through books they read, stories they experience. Sure, but above all else in the home. How do they learn that? It's modeled for them. They see parents empathizing or caregivers empathizing with each other. They see extended family empathizing with each other. They see empathy in the classroom. They see empathy in the world. You can imagine a child who sees none of that, or the parent is acting in a very entitled manner like, Oh, let's just go to the head of line. We're more important than these people. Or, Oh, gosh, we're not sitting in that line. All these things parents do that they think are innocuous in an airport, at a soccer game, at a theme park, your kid's learning. And their brain is just an explosion of neurons and dead rights. And that's getting filed away under, We're special.

The reason why this is so interesting to me is because I think one of the challenges when you have either a narcissistic parent, or sibling, or boss, or somebody that you're in a relationship with is that you think that somehow everything is your fault. Yes. And when I learn from you that narcissists are made in childhood, it just opened up this door for me to go, Oh, wow. They didn't choose to be this way. They're not consciously doing this?

What it is, it's a regulation issue, right? It's the sense that a narcissistic person never quite feels safe in the world, right? Because they never feel safe, they're always on the offense and the defense simultaneously. I'm going to win. I'm going to dominate. Me, me, me. And are you looking at me? You're looking at me? And then rage, rage, rage. That constant offense defense that they play makes them very antagonistic unless things are going exactly the way they want. And where narcissistic people are tricky is that if they feel safe, I got to tell you, it might be one of the most engaging, entrancing, exhilarating.

It's literally a Jekyl.

And Hyde experience. But then at a time they don't feel safe or they're bored, it's over. And people will spend their lives trying to get back to that hung the sun, hung the moon moment. And they said, they really don't have any more use for you anymore, then that's it. You ain't going to feel that again.

Well, let's talk about what are the five warning signs that someone's a narcissist?

So I would say number one would be that their are very reactive if they experience any form of feedback or criticism. So if you say anything, even like a really thoughtful critique like, I would consider rewriting this paragraph, throw the paper in your face. Really? Really? Oh, so you're James Joyce? You write it, that thing. So very reactive, very quick. Number two, oppositionality. If you tell them to do something, they'll go out of their way. They don't like being told what to do. So you might ask them, could you wear a mask? That was a big one during the pandemic. Could you wear a mask? Oh, yeah. How dare you tell me to do this? Could you not park there? That's reserved parking for the people who are coming to get, I don't know, coming to for whatever reason. How can these parks are hurt? These spots are I'm parking right here. If you tell them to do something, it is as though they feel they're being dominated and controlled. They ain't having that. That's another thing is you see oppositionality. Their empathy is very superficial. Some people say, No, they had empathy. I'm like, Talk to me about that empathy.

And what you'll see is that it is very performative. It's very superficial. So can.

You give us an example?

An example might be, oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh. Your brother is sick. Oh, wow. That's got to be really, really hard. Are you okay? Are you okay?

That sounds nice.

Okay, then very quickly it'll be like, and now you want to talk about it. I'm the other person. Yeah, I know he's been sick, but it's brought up all this other stuff for me. I'm really feeling lost, and I'm realizing how much my brother is high. And then the narcissists are going to be doing a lot like this. They don't want to hear it. They'll come in with... I always say this, narcissistic folks are great at thank you cards and thank you gifts, but they're really bad at a true gratitude. They will be seemingly empathic. But as soon as you go in a little deeper, like you're actually really talking about how your brother's illness affected you, now you'll see they'll tune out like, too much emotion coming their way, too much need. It's very quick silver, what I call thank you card empathy. It'll seem so on point, but they're not really present with you. They'll cry at a movie. But when that same exact thing happens in their life, they're actually treating the other person badly, and they don't even connect it to you. You were just crying when that man beat someone in the story, and yet you were threatening someone.

How do you not see? They don't see it. They do not see it. There is a performative quality to the empathy, and there's also a transactional quality to their empathy. They'll be really warm to you when they need something, but when they get it, they'll actually click out. That's a really bad feeling because you're recognized, Oh, they were just nice to me to get that thing. I'd say it's this inconsistent, performative, pseudo, superficial empathy. That's another thing. The fourth I would say is egocentric. It's really hard for them to not hijack a conversation, interrupt people, and constantly make it about themselves. So even when somebody might say, I went abroad for my very first trip, and it was amazing. And I went on an airplane, and I did this, and I did that. I got my first passport. Really sweet. It's so beautiful to hear people. And you just drink it all in. The narcissistic person, give them three minutes, and they're like, What airline did you take? Yeah, and I take that airline. It's not that great. What hotel are you staying? The hotel I'd recommend in Rome is this. I went to that restaurant, and it just becomes now it's their travel log, and they're yammering on.

They just love to hold court. The conversation always stears back to them. They cannot simply be present with somebody else telling a story, or will interrupt, or will be contemptious and be like... Like that. There'll be a lot... I'll do that for the camera. Like a lot of like, Oh, my gosh, we're listening to this summer vacation story. Great. What a good use of my time. If anyone's ever watched Succession, I'd say the best, contemptuous, narcissist performance I've ever seen in my life is Roman, played by Kieran Culkin. He's never have I seen that narcissistic contempt so consistently played by a character. If you want to know what that looks like, watch Succession.

Is that the same thing as triangulation?

No. So triangulation is creating chaos in environments.

So is that a fifth sign to look for triangulation?

I would say that it's hard to look for triangulation. You have to look for the soft signs of triangulation, which be gossip, talking badly about other people, trying to get the goods on other people. So they're always trying to talk to me about this person, talk to me about that person, and then you'll come to find out they're doing the same thing about you to someone else. Yeah.

And what is the fifth sign if it's not that soft triangulation thing?

I would say then it's constantly having to put other people down to lift them up. Yeah, he thinks he got the right Tesla. Actually, that's just the baseline model or like, nobody stays on that side of that island. It's putting other people down. And it is contempt. I would wrap up contempt in that. Narcissistic people are notoriously contemptuous. It often comes out as snobbery, but it can even come out even like, Oh, God, dude, nobody's doing that, and make fun of someone. And it can hurt the other person. And then what the narcissistic person will often do is they will then turn around and say, I was just making a joke. So now if you react to it, it's a joke. But if you say something to them and you say it's just a joke, they'll still rage at you. And I'll throw in a sixth sign, or it could be 5A, is gaslighting. They're constantly doubting reality. I never said that. I never did that. I didn't put that there. That never happened. And then when you try to push back on that, when you try to push back on that, they'll say, Oh, my God, you're so sensitive, or Have you seen a shrink?

Because people don't usually react the way you are, so they leave you feeling as though you're impaired. I'd say that gaslighting is, like I said, 5A because I gave you contempt as 5.

I.

Don't.

Know if anybody else listening is having the experience I'm having right now, where I have a pit in my stomach because I have at least one person, very prominent person that I have in my mind in my life. And I'm like, Check.

Check, check.

Check, check, check. Somebody's talking at the table, they're rolling their eyes at other people. Somebody leaves the room. They just immediately trash them as they leave. What I want to know is, we'll get into what to do, but now that you're really pulling apart the signs, and we've learned that there are two tracks in childhood where this behavior and this personality type is made, what is the impact... If you have a parent that is like this, like if you have a parent that is like this? If you've been raised by somebody that exhibits all five of these, or you're like, Oh, my God, I think my mom or my dad was a freaking narcissist. Check, check, check. How does that impact you now that you're an adult?

So it's not good. That's the best answer I can give you. It is not good. So let's remember two things. First of all, I'm going to add a 5B to that list, look for entitlement. That idea if they won't wait in line, they're special, they expect special treatment, and they get really angry if they're not given special treatment. That's another sign to look for. But let's remember this about narcissism. It's on a continuum. Not all narcissists are the same. A person who is dealing with what we call a milder, lighter, narcissistic person is having a very different experience than somebody who's dealing with a rather severe, narcissistic person. I think that that has muddied the waters in this conversation, because if a person dealing with a milder, narcissist, here's the story of somebody who's dealing with a really severe narcissist or saying, Well, maybe I'm not dealing with a narcissist because I'm not living in terror.

Dr. Ramani, I'm so excited to.

Be here with you. Narcissism is not a diagnosis.

Okay? Wait, what?