I'm really excited to talk to you because I have been thinking a lot about my relationship. It sounds weird to even say my relationship with alcohol. I've been thinking a lot about drinking, and I have this very conflicted relationship with drinking. My husband doesn't really drink, and so that means that I have a partner that is never pouring himself a drink at the end of the day. And that has made me think a lot more about, why am I drinking? And I've noticed that I. We're just gonna jump in with a confessional. Is that okay? I mean, is this the way that we should? Okay, great. I've just noticed that I have a lot of agita about it. Should I drink? Should I not drink? Is it bad if I'm drinking? And I wanted to talk to you because I love your website and I love your approach to having people, as you say, have a, quote, normal relationship with alcohol and with their urges. And I don't even know where to begin. I just am really excited to talk to you about this, because I don't even know. I don't. I don't know why I'm so conflicted about it.

I don't. I wish I weren't. And I guess the other thing that's been happening for me is that the more that I learn about neuroscience and the body and the fact that alcohol is poison, the more I'm thinking to myself, why the fuck am I drinking if it's this bad for me? Oh, yeah, I know. Because I like the taste of it. And every once in a while, it's fun to celebrate with friends. So that's me. That's me. The hot mess. Mel Robbins without.

Or maybe not a hot mess.

A little bit, maybe.

Normally conflicted.

Is it normal to be conflicted about alcohol?

Yes. Yes, of course it is. Of course. Think about it. On the one hand, you're like, okay, I'm, like, learning about this, and it's a poison and it's bad for my body. And on the other hand, it's, like, a billion dollar industry, and we're exposed to so many messages about alcohol. And I just think we're getting all these conflicted messages all the time that it's the thing that makes things fun and fancy and adult and how you do something special, and then at the same time, it's like, oh, by the way, you're poisoning yourself. So I think that that's very normal. And I just want to tell you that I think the vast majority of people that I work with start out in this place of, I'm not really sure what I want to do. I'm not really sure or what is right. I just know that I have this kind of. I don't know if it's an intuition or this little kind of quiet whisper that, I don't know, something doesn't feel right or something about my relationship feels a little off, and maybe I want to do something about it. It's just that this is also such a highly charged issue.

Right. And so I think a lot of times people have that intuition. They have that kind of inner knowing of, like, I don't know, maybe I want to look more closely at this, but then, like, oh, God, what does that mean? Do I have to stop drinking for the rest of my life? Do I have to put a label on? So what you are experiencing, I just want to say, is very normal, the conflict that you have. For a long time, I was like, do I have a split personality? What is going on? Because part of me had so much desire and love to drink. And part of me was also like, I don't know that this is creating the best outcomes for you. And I didn't, I thought that that conflict was a sign that something was wrong with me, rather than, you know, you've got two different parts of your brain that care about different things, and so, yeah, you're gonna be conflicted sometimes about your desires. That's normal.

Is it appropriate for me to tell you this soon in our relationship that I love you? Well, because I'm starting to think about how you're right. I've started to do. I've started to think about this like, there's something wrong with me, and I have a problem. And when I look at everybody's relationship with alcohol, it is kind of fucked up because we have all of this messaging at us. We, most of us have had periods of our lives where we drank. And I even look at our 20 somethings who are just through the college year or just got out of college, and their relationship with alcohol is crazy. You know, like, they just go on these benders, and then it's like, oh, I'm not gonna drink all week. I gotta get back healthy again. And that's what I used to be like. And I think about how much effort goes into the, am I gonna have a gin and tonic tonight, or am I not gonna have anything at all? And then if I do have a drink, I should probably take some advil before I go to bed. And the whole cycle that happens in the morning, when you feel kind of hungover, and I wake up, and I'm like, why did I do that?

Now I'm not as clear, and I don't feel like exercising, and I probably shouldn't have had that wine, and it tasted like shit anyway, and it was a lot of sugar. And so I realized that there's a lot of active energy that I have around alcohol. And I wanted to talk to you because I'm like, I'm pretty sure I don't have a problem. But what I do have a problem with is the amount of conflict that I feel like I'm doing something wrong. And I feel like I have a split personality because I literally argue for it and against it every single time I use it, where I'm like, well, it's just a gin and tonic, for God's sakes. I mean, it's just like, who cares? And then I'm like, well, you know, the poison. And, you know, you said you weren't going to drink tonight, so you're a liar, and that means you have a problem. And then I'm like, well, no, I don't, because I'm just having aging and tonic, for God's sakes. And then I fill it up with topo Chico after that. Not the alcoholic topo chico, but just regular one.

So what's wrong with that? Well, you know, you said you weren't gonna drink, and then that's a this, and then you're gonna sleep like shit. Cause you're in menopause and, like, it's like this beat down. So, yeah, help me. Help me. Help all of us. How did you start doing this? Like, what did do you drink? I have so many questions.

Yeah, okay, well, so, I mean, I will say that I started drinking in college. I was 17. Oh, that's very.

I'm a way better drinker than you are. I started at 14, man.

I was very quickly, like, oh, this is the solution to all my problems. Like, we don't have to feel awkward. We don't have to feel anxious. I don't have to listen to any of my internal critic or any of my, you know, hang ups. This is amazing. Where has this been? Right? And so that. I mean, I think that was my experience. What you're describing, the kind of 20 something that I like, would work very hard during the week, by the way. Also during the week, a constant kind of p's. Don't ever make any mistakes. Don't do anything wrong. You must do everything perfectly. And then the weekend for me was my outlet to be like, okay, like, finally, not only do I get to stop feeling anxious and awkward and have these hang ups, but also, I can, like, be a little wild and mess up, and this is the way to feel sexy and confident and have fun. And so, you know, that was something that my brain was learning. Again, I just. I think it's really important to reiterate that we are learning something. When we drink, the brain is always learning.

So we're not just learning to acquire the taste. We're learning about, hey, this is what we do at sporting, when we watch the game or at sporting events or at celebrations or on vacation. So we're learning both when we do it. And we're also learning, this is how I relax, right? This is how I connect. This is how I open up. And so all of that is unconsciously happening below the surface. And I think we get to this point where we start to want to examine our drinking, and maybe I want to drink less, or maybe I'm unsure about this, and we are trying to do it from this place of, okay, well, I know it's not good for me. Right? I know I shouldn't do this, or I should be more responsible, as opposed to, hey, what has my brain learned? Can I start to understand that? Can I start to teach my brain something different about what alcohol is a symbol for? I mean, it becomes a symbol for so many things. And I think we just look at it from the superficial of, like, oh, I just like the taste. Right? Or like, I was like, I'm just into craft cocktails.

That's just my thing.

I like the ceremony and the smoke and the sprig of rosemary that comes out of that thimble that they serve it in for $20. Right.

But.

Right.

There is so much. I mean, you think about it. You know, you go to a fancy restaurant, and you're getting the wine pairing, and the sommelier is coming over, and you're getting all this information about, you know, where it was grown and the type of grape, and, yeah, I mean, we are, like, building up all of this kind of excitement and drama around it. And by the way, I'm not saying any of that is bad, but I think we just have to understand that there's a reason that we attach all this kind of symbolism and desire and what it starts to represent. So that's all going on. And then we have the other side of, okay, well, if I had too much to drink, I was obviously stupid, and I should know better, and why am I still making these same mistakes? I should have grown out of this by now. So there's this idea that all of our desire and urges should just be conquered by our intellect, and that doesn't make any sense.

I just love everything that you're saying, because I'm starting to realize that one of the reasons why I've never been drawn toward just being a person that doesn't have alcohol in their life, period, is that it also felt, for me, at least. I know for some people, it's incredibly important and empowering, and it is the choice that is the right choice and the choice you need to make. But for me, there was something about it that felt like a part of the thing I'm already doing, which is making myself wrong about the urges. And I have always said to myself that I just wish I could be the kind of person that had no drama around it, that if I wanted a glass of wine, I had a glass of wine in the moment. And if I didn't feel the need to finish the whole bottle of wine, that I wouldn't have this whole shame cycle and conflict of whether or not I'm gonna drink or not drink. And when you said the thing about how, like, it's part of how we watch sports, it made me realize there are so many stories that your brain has learned about when and where and why you drink alcohol.

And I think the single two biggest stories for me are, number one, that alcohol, for me, is about belonging, not belonging to the alcohol. But my brain has hardwired the moment that I first had a drink when I was 14 years old and I was dating somebody who was two grades ahead of me. And at that point in time, I think it was still grandfathered in, that if you were 18, you could buy alcohol in Michigan. And so my boyfriend could buy alcohol and. Or, no, his friends could buy alcohol. Cause he was 17. And we went out. We would go out to Lake Michigan. And I remember when we were first dating, we pull into the state park, and there are all the seniors out there. And my boyfriend was a junior, and I was a freshman. And I was so scared because I was the only freshman or sophomore that was out at that beach. The sun was setting. We get out of the car. He grabs my hand. We walk towards all his friends, and one of the gals turns to me and says, hey, Mel, would you like a rum and coke?

And when she handed me that rum and coke and a red solo cup, I immediately exhaled and was like, okay, I'm part of the group. And so the trigger for me is anytime the waiter comes around, or, I'm going over to a friend's house. This just happened last night. I was not planning on having anything to drink last night. And then I went over to my friend's house. She had two glasses out and a bottle of censer. And she poured two glasses and said, let's go walk around the garden. And I'm like, okay. You know, like, okay, I'm gonna join in with you. And I it feels good to join in. And the sunset tasted great. And I had a glass of wine. That was it. And then I came home. But of course, as I'm driving home, Rachel, I'm like, why'd you do that?

Yeah, right? Cause you're making it mean that you did something wrong.

Yes.

As opposed to, like, can we just love your brain for a second? That it's like, hey, I wanna belong? How normal of me. How human of me, that I wanna feel connected. Right? And at some point you're 14, and the brain's like, oh, this is how we belong. Like, you have the red solo cup. I have the red solo cup. Look, belonging. And so that's what I'm talking about when I'm saying, like, what was your brain learning right now? You may not have made consciously that connection in that moment, but at some point, your brain did make that connection. It did make that association. And so then it's like, wait, if this is a symbol of belonging, and I want to belong. Cause who doesn't? Then what's gonna happen? All of a sudden? It's like, okay. So I go see my friend and she pours two drinks, and I'm like, no, thank you. Are we disconnected now? Do I not belong?

And I know intellectually, Rachel, that she wouldn't give a shit. She'd just take my glass that she poured and poured in hers and then give me a seltzer. She can roll with it. It's not that big of a deal. So, Doctor Waichman, can you explain to what even is alcohol and how does it affect our bodies? Sure.

So alcohol is a molecule. It's a water soluble molecule that is readily absorbed in your body through your stomach and your small intestine when you drink it. And it affects all different parts of your body and body systems, in particular your brain, which is why we feel the effects of alcohol pretty soon after you start drinking. And we can talk through what those effects are, but it impacts our behavior, our sleep, our mood and many other parts of our body system.

You talked about alcohol as a molecule. That sounds very sciency. To me. What kind of molecule is it? Is it a poison? Could you explain more about the makeup of what it actually is?

Yeah. So, I mean, the way alcohol that we drink happens is through a process called fermentation. So something that has sugar, like grape juice, or if you think about beer, barley or I, potatoes or other, often starches, are fermented. And in that transformation process, they form an alcohol molecule that then has a different effect on our body. Alcohol is found in all sorts of different things. So, obviously, it's intentionally made through fermentation to ingest. But we also use it in cleaning products or like rubbing alcohol or mouthwash. Hand sanitizer. So there are alcohols all around us and used for many different things.

Huh. Well, when you say the category cleaning, hand sanitizer, rubbing alcohol, thinking about uses in a hospital, and then I put that in the same almost family as something you would ingest in a cocktail, is it the same molecule?

It is. And in fact, some of my patients with the most severe forms of alcohol use disorder will drink hand sanitizer or rubbing alcohol or mouthwash if they can't get regular alcohol, which tells you, really, the power of addiction once someone gets to that level of severity. But it's the same molecule with the same effect.

I just already had something that I learned. That is, if you're watching us on YouTube, you can see that my mouth is agape. I don't know why I never connected the dots on that, that it is actually the same chemical.

Exactly. The actual alcohol molecule that we think of in a fancy, you know, cosmopolitan is not different from what's in rubbing alcohol, let's say.

I never knew that. I think that's an indication of just how much we engage in it and don't really think about what we're doing.

Absolutely. I mean, that it is so socialized and a part of culture and a part of celebrations and events that I think it just feels like a part of life.

Are there negative impacts to having, like, a beer or a glass of wine every night? I mean, how does that impact you?

Yeah.

So this is probably the most fascinating area of research, where things have changed and gone back and forth over many decades of science. And it's actually a somewhat tricky question to answer, which is why I think there have been very confusing sometimes and conflicting studies about this. So if you want to try to understand what is the impact of low risk drinking, moderate risk drinking, higher risk drinking, you have to figure out how do you study that? So you need to follow population over time to see what happens. Then you need to figure out, how do we isolate the effect of alcohol? And so, early on, there were lots of studies showing that low risk drinking or moderate risk drinking were actually healthy.

I think I remember something about, like, a glass of red wine is really good for you, the antioxidants. I don't know if that's the red wine lobby telling us that.

One criticism of those studies showing that low risk drinking is healthy is that the group that is often used as sort of the comparison group are people that don't drink at all. But it turns out that many people who don't drink at all may not be drinking because they have chronic health problems or because they actually used to have an alcohol use disorder, and they're now in remission or recovery, and they may have health consequences that are leading to higher mortality compared to people who are drinking at a low risk or infrequent level. So a lot of the newer studies have actually used infrequent drinkers as the sort of control group or the comparison group. And I think that's really helpful to understand the data that way. There was a really big study, actually, this year that looked at hundreds of thousands of people that had been surveyed since the 1990s, all the way through the mid 2000 teens, and did a really elegant job of trying to answer this question. And the things they did differently than other studies is, first, they controlled for other healthy behaviors, lifestyle behaviors, chronic conditions. Because one question is a person who's drinking a glass of wine a day, maybe they're also running every day and doing other health promoting behaviors.

And maybe that person who's chose not to drink at all has lung cancer, and that's the reason they're not drinking. And so they actually controlled for all of that. And they did see that in the low risk category, there seemed to be a slight decrease in mortality, and it was not true for cancer. So any amount of alcohol is associated with an increased cancer risk. And that's a really important thing to know, especially if someone has a personal family history of cancer. Breast cancer is one that's strongly associated with alcohol use. And so factoring that in as you're making your decisions about alcohol is really important.

What is it about the molecule of alcohol that increases your risk for cancer?

You know, it's different for every type of cancer. And I think we're just starting to understand this. If you take breast cancer, there things that seem to increase hormone levels are often associated with a risk of cancer. So I think that's an area of active research to understand why alcohol and breast cancer in particular, are so closely linked. Other types of cancer, it's a little more clear. They tend to be cancers of the liver or the gut that are strongly associated with alcohol. And that makes sense if you think of alcohol as a potential poison going into your gut, being metabolized by your liver, causing changes there. That's an area that we do see a lot of cancer risk.

Can you talk about what you're seeing as it relates to alcohol, liver failure, or just how it's impacting people's livers?

Yeah. So one of the main health harms from alcohol, especially heavy alcohol use, is liver damage. And so what we see happen is this progression, where the first thing that happens is inflammation of the liver. And when your liver gets inflamed, you start getting fat deposit in the liver. So the first kind of step is what we sometimes call fatty liver. So it's fat deposition in your liver that actually can totally reverse if you stop drinking or you make changes. And that's the amazing thing with the liver. It's a really regenerative organ. So you could cut 80% of someone's liver out and they would be okay. But there is a point where you cross a threshold where you can no longer repair the damage, and that's when you get to a stage called cirrhosis. So from fat deposition, then you start getting scarring. Your body lays down all this scar tissue because of the chronic inflammation in your liver. And when your liver becomes so scarred that it's really stiff and starts not functioning well, that's cirrhosis. And we often used to think of cirrhosis as something that happened to people, like, decades down the road.

I am seeing people in their early thirties with cirrhosis in the hospital, and I think those are, like, some of the most heartbreaking cases. Cause people thought, like, this wasn't on their bingo card. They did not even think this was a concern. They were drinking heavily. They thought it was their social circle was doing the same thing. And then all of a sudden, they're in their late twenties, early thirties, in the hospital, and liver failure. And there's very little we can do at that point other than an organ transplant, which is a huge deal, and not something that's accessible to everyone.

Is this something that you're seeing happening increase at a younger and younger age?

Yeah, and there's actually a lot of studies showing this. So between 2010 and 2020, there's been a significant increase in alcohol related liver failure, especially amongst women and younger and younger people. And even just after the onset of COVID we saw somewhere around a 25% increase in alcohol related death after the onset of the pandemic. So the pandemic was hard for many reasons, but it certainly increased alcohol use across the country. And with that, liver disease and liver failure.

Wow. How does alcohol impact the kidneys?

So, alcohol, one of the main effects that people have probably experienced is it makes your kidneys less sensitive to a hormone your body produces called adh, or antidiuretic hormone. And so you pee more. So if anyone's ever noticed that when they drink, they sort of pee a.

Lot more, and it's not because you're hydrated, because that's what I thought is why you pee more is because, oh, I just have more liquid in me. But it's actually because it's blocking a hormone.

Exactly. So even irrespective of how much volume you've drank, you pee more because of this blocking of the effect of a normal hormone function in your. Your kidney. And so that can lead to dehydration, which is one of the many reasons you feel really crummy the next day, because you get dehydrated from drinking.

What about the gut microbiome? We're learning so much about the importance of healthy gut. How does alcohol impact that?

Yeah, so alcohol, I think there's growing research on how it impacts the microbiome. Certainly, again, at heavy levels, it seems to harm the microbiome. And we see this in patients with liver disease. But also just the impact of alcohol itself. The kind of two main things it does. One is it creates more leakage in your gut. So people may have heard of kind of leaky gut. The walls of your intestine become more porous, so that things that aren't meant to come out of your intestine do and can actually cross the blood brain barrier. So this whole idea of kind of the brain gut access is a really growing area of research and knowledge. So alcohol can do that. It can also change the makeup of your microbiome itself, as can high fat, high sugar, white flour, sort of the western diet. But there's now a lot of studies showing that some of the modifiable things, if you want to improve your gut health, are decreasing your alcohol consumption and steering away from that kind of western diet of high fat, high sugar, high carb.

You know, I'm sitting here listening to you, and I'm thinking, why the hell do I even drink this stuff?

Yeah, I think it is important to understand sort of what are the risks that we often don't talk about and assume that this is, you know, harmless thing that's just a part of life. My personal perspective is that every health behavior exists on a spectrum, and it's really understand, important to understand, sort of, what is that spectrum? Where do I fall? And then what are my personal health goals? And actually stopping to sort of think, how does alcohol fit in my life? Like, what do I like about it? What do I nothing like about it? What am I worried about it? What is this amount of alcohol doing to my health?

Is there any health benefit to drinking alcohol?

My opinion is that we shouldn't be thinking of it as a health benefit. So I would never, as a doctor, say to a patient, I think you should start drinking a glass of wine a day for your health.

It's true.

We used to, people used to say that, you know, again, this idea of a glass of red wine is healthy. I think that framing is wrong. I think that doesn't mean that you can't drink any alcohol, and we should talk through that. But thinking of it as a health problem, promoting behavior is probably not the best way to frame it. Now, there are many things we do in life that the safest thing would be to do none of it. So if your goal is to have zero risk, you should probably never drive your car, never go skiing, you know, never fly in an airplane, never eat bacon, never go out in the sun, and people aren't going to live that way. So I think it's really important to understand sort of what are the risks? How does this fit into my overall life, and when should I be concerned, and how can I actually make changes to decrease those risks? So if you're finding that you are really stressed in your life and you're reaching alcohol as a stress reliever, it's probably not going to be a healthy way of coping with that and may lead to longer term problems.

And especially if you're trying to live a life where you're being more mindful or more present or present for your kids or your partner or, you know, you're trying to get in shape and you want to wake up in the morning to exercise. If you're drinking every night, you're probably going to feel not refreshed in the morning, going to notice it. You know, you don't have the same exercise capacity. So I think just figuring out sort of how this ritual alcohol, what role it plays in your life, and it doesn't have to be that you stop drinking entirely. And I think that's a really important message, because that may not be the goal for people, but if you are feeling like maybe this is causing some problems to me, maybe this is actually counterproductive to my other health goals. Making some changes, cutting back, taking a break, those are all really healthy ways that you can start to really explore your relationship with alcohol.

Yeah. You know, I love the fact that you are a specialist in addiction, and you have a very realistic approach, because I do agree with you that it does feel like it's either you're all in or you're all out. I think for a lot of people, it is scary to feel like there's only one option, which is you either drink or you don't. And for many people, not drinking at all is the absolute empowering option. But I love what you're saying, which is you need to wake up and understand what your motivators are and what you actually care about in this moment in your life. And if you care about producing more at work or being more present or reaching your potential, you gotta look at the role that alcohol is playing in your life.

Yeah.

So from a medical perspective, how much drinking is too much drinking?

Yeah. So from a research standpoint, higher risk drinking would be if you're having more than 10oz of hard alcohol a week or 35oz of wine in a week for a woman or for anyone over 65. So above that, we start seeing health risks like increased risk of dementia, impact on your liver, your digestive tract, and other serious conditions.

You know, I'm just sitting here thinking about you as a physician and a researcher, and how I think a lot of us lie to our doctors about how much we're actually drinking and that we're not even aware of what the serving size truly is. Because when a lot of people make a cocktail at home, it's like glug, glug, glug, glug, glug. And there's three shots right there.

Yeah.

Or you've had a number of big glasses of wine, which basically mean you have had all seven glasses of wine in one night, and thinking, oh, oh, I've just had a couple glasses. But I bet as you are seeing somebody get a scan, there's probably times where you're like, yeah, that's somebody that has. Is a very heavy drinker, because I can see it on the brain. Yeah.

And I think there's so many important points buried in that. So first, we all lie. I tell my dentist I floss every day. I don't. We want people to like us and approve of us. So I sort of expect people will lie to me, especially if they don't know me.

Right.

And for most people, because of the tremendous stigma around substance use disorder, there's a lot of shame and worry. For many people. Their experience has not been that good. Things happen to them when they share that they're having a problem with alcohol or other drugs. And so as a doctor, I feel like it's on me to earn someone's trust and also to educate them. I mean, there's nothing more heartbreaking to me than when I see someone, you know, in the terminal stages of liver failure, for example, from alcohol. And no one has told them beforehand, like, what the risks are, that this is, that this could happen. What sort of lower risk drinking looks like. They've often never had that conversation. So we'll see people in their thirties come in, they literally die during that hospital admission. And you look back and they had touch points with doctors. They maybe were drinking heavily, and no one stopped to sort of talk to them about it. And I think that is a real testament to how in the medical system, for so long, we have seen substance use and addiction as something separate from the rest of healthcare is sort of not our job or a behavioral issue or a moral issue or a willpower issue, but this is a health condition like any other.

And I think the medical system and doctors need to get comfortable talking to patients about it, asking them the right questions, giving them the right education, and partnering with people around making healthy changes.

When you sit with somebody that comes into your practice, how do you help them figure out their relationship with alcohol? What are a list of symptoms that you would say, these are all indications that this could be a problem?

Yeah, that's a great question. So I'll run through kind of the checklist that I'm thinking when I'm talking to someone about alcohol. So first, understanding how much they're drinking, just the general quantity and how frequently, is important as sort of a proxy for what their risk might be. But then the really important questions are, are they drinking more than they want to? So they may have set an intention for themselves, and they're finding they're actually always drinking more or spending more time on drinking or recovering from drinking than they intended. Have they tried to make changes and not been able to? So have you tried to cut back or tried to stop and you actually weren't able to? That's a really important sign that you may have lost control of your drinking. Are you drinking despite the fact that people in your life are worried about it, or your spouse has expressed concern, or it's impacting your work or your ability to function and roles that matter to you. Are you drinking despite the fact that it actually makes you more anxious or it's worsening your mental or physical health in some way? And then we often think about craving, which is sort of a strong psychological urge to want to drink.

So, like, you can't get the idea of having a drink out of your mind. That's something that we can see with alcohol use disorder. And then there are two physical symptoms, which is that idea of, like, do you need to drink more to get the same effects? Do you need to drink four drinks now, whereas before one or two would give you that effect? And do you feel sick if you stop drinking? So that's sort of the checklist we run through, and I think really gets at those kind of general areas of losing control, using compulsively, using despite consequences, and then craving.

That was so helpful. And one of the things that really resonated with me is that you've tried to quit. You drink more than you want, you feel anxious, and yet you continue to do it. And you're in this cycle of wishing you could get control over this and yet feeling like you can't. And yet if you aren't stumbling around at night or you feel like I am able to, like, carry on a conversation, I'm not blacking out, I'm not getting behind the wheel of a car. There's this assumption that it is under control. But I love how you just defined it, because you're making us really look at ourselves and ask ourselves the honest question, which is it really? And even just that question, are you drinking more than you want to be drinking? If you answer that question honestly and whether you're listening right now for yourself or you're listening for somebody that you love, that you're concerned about, this is an amazing starting point, because we're not bickering about how much you're drinking. We're not bickering about your behavior. We're really talking about the honest answer to what is your relationship to it?

And do you actually have control over your ability to use it or not use it? And that is powerful. Now, Doctor Waichman, where I want to pivot to next is I'm starting to see this picture where as a researcher and a renowned expert on this topic that you are talking about kind of the big risks that can happen, I want to focus a little bit on amplifying the day to day impact that most of us are not present to. Yeah. That we reach for the alcohol at night because at least in my own experience, it's like an easy lever to pull to say to my brain, we're no longer working. This is the, the thing that I do as my ritual to move into the evening, to have a glass of wine. But we don't really understand what's happening and how it's actually impacting your experience of your life day to day. I want to take a quick pause so we can hear a word from our sponsors. And I also want to remind you that if you're worried about somebody, send them this episode right now as you're listening to our sponsors because oftentimes they can't hear it from you.

But hearing it from somebody like Doctor Wakeman, who has such a balanced approach and is a renowned expert on this topic, it might actually just be the thing that gets somebody to wake up and want to do better. So I'll be waiting for you after a short word from our sponsors. Thank you for sharing this with anybody who needs to hear it. And I'll see you right after the break. Welcome back. I'm Mel Robbins and I'm so glad you're here. Thank you. Thank you for sharing this episode with absolutely anybody in your life that you believe needs to hear this. You and I are spending time today with Harvard's doctor Sarah Wakeman. So, Doctor Wakeman, can you explain to us what are some of the other day to day things that people experience when they drink that they might not realize is related to drinking?

Yeah, it's a great question. So one really common thing is worsened acid reflux. So if you have heartburn that's strongly associated with alcohol, which actually relaxes the part of your esophagus that allows acid to come back up. So oftentimes people will be struggling with terrible heartburn and they don't realize that those two glasses of wine are probably having a direct impact on that. Other things. We know that alcohol can make you dehydrated. So you may notice that your skin changes. It impacts how you sleep. So you may feel less rested when you wake up in the morning or wake up in the middle of the night and not be able to fall back asleep. So lots of little sort of day to day ways that alcohol may be impacting your health and your experience.

What are some of the benefits that you would experience almost immediately if you quit drinking entirely or you cut way back? What kind of health benefit would you experience in your day to day life?

Yeah, you'll see a lot of really quick things. So, one, you'll have sleep better and feel more restored. You may lose weight. There's a lot of calories in alcohol. So if your goal is to lose weight, you're drinking a ton of liquid calories. So you may find that that's better. You may find that your exercise capacity goes up because you're resting more and you're not having hangovers, and you're able to exercise in a way that feels different. You may find that you're less irritable and more present for your loved ones, that your mood is actually better over time. Your skin might look better. You're less dehydrated. Your hormones are more regulated, so you may have less acne. So all of those benefits you can often see in a very short time. And that can be reinforcing as you decide what you want your long term goals to look like, to really see what life is like with less or without alcohol.

How does alcohol impact the range of women's hormones, from estrogen to progesterone to, like, all of it? How does it impact your hormones?

Yeah, this is, I think, an area of growing research and understanding, and I think people are really interested in sort of drinking during menopause as well. And what, you know, what to think about all of that. A couple things. I think many of the symptoms that people experience during menopause, like hot flashes, will be made worse by any amount of alcohol.

Really?

Yes, because alcohol dilates your blood vessels. So you may have experienced, if you drink a couple glasses of wine, you actually feel flushed and warm. Yes. Well, it's just gonna amplify the experience you're having during hot flashes. So if you're trying to not have hot flashes, drinking is gonna be your enemy in that. Cause it's just gonna make that worse. Same things like sleep disturbance, are really common in menopause. Mood changes, and alcohol may impact all of those. And it can be a tough cycle because you may be drinking because your mood's actually low and you're having a hard time falling asleep, but then alcohol is actually running counterproductive and making those symptoms worse over the long haul.

Let's talk a little bit about sleep, because doesn't alcohol impact your sleep in a very negative way?

Yeah. And people may be surprised to hear that. Cause it makes you fall asleep quicker. So often people are like, oh, alcohol helps sleep because I fall asleep so quickly. But when we think about sleep architecture, there's different cycles to sleep. People are probably familiar with, like, rem sleep is that deep, you know, rapid eye movement sleep. But there's different cycles that your body, your brain naturally cycles through in the night. And the balance of those cycles is really important to get restorative sleep, which is when your body rests and heals. And what alcohol does is it changes the makeup of those cycles. So you go more quickly into deepen sleep and you have less time in sort of the normal phases of sleep. And so your sleep architecture is disrupted and you don't get that same restful sleep. So you may wake up at two in the morning, you know, after you've fallen asleep really quickly, but then you wake up and can't fall back asleep, or you may wake up in the morning and just feel not refreshed, even though you were completely, you know, asleep very deeply, because your brain is not having the time to restore itself the way that it needs to.

I have another question, Doctor Wakeman. Can you walk us through what's happening in your body in terms of what we call a hangover? So you've had your night out, you've had a bit of alcohol, right? And you wake up. What is a hangover and what is actually happening in the body as you withdraw from the alcohol?

Yeah, hangover is fascinating. And there, I think, people are still trying to understand exactly what is going on. Sort of loosely defined. What we refer to as hangover often is a sort of constellation of symptoms that includes headache, feeling anxious, often actually having diminished sort of exercise tolerance. So you don't have the same aerobic capacity that you did before feeling irritable. Those are all sorts of symptoms of hangover that people have probably experienced. There's an older school of thought that actually it was mild alcohol withdrawal. So withdrawal is when you are drinking so much that when you stop drinking, you actually get symptoms. Seems like that is likely not the case. The constellation of symptoms is quite different. And so the thinking is that it's a combination of really two things. One is dehydration. So we already talked about how alcohol make you pee more, and so you get dehydrated, and then the other is actually byproducts from the drink that you're drinking itself. Either the sort of breakdown products of alcohol, or there are certain types of liquors and drinks that have other types of molecules, cogeners, that can build up and make you feel even crummier.

So, for example, clear alcohol tends to cause less of a hangover than dark alcohol, and that's probably because of the other substances that are in it. But it's really sort of toxic byproducts and dehydration. If I were to sum it up, of what's causing a hangover, why is.

Anxiety one of the biggest kind of symptoms of a hangover, an alcohol withdrawal?

Yeah, it's probably the effect of these byproducts that then are still impacting the way your body functions, your brain. And it takes a long time for your body to excrete them. And so we can see just feeling that really anxious, restless, kind of gross feeling afterwards.

Does alcohol impact cortisol or any of the other kind of hormones that are in your brain that are playing a part in anxiety?

Yeah, it does, especially over time. And so what we see when people have been drinking over a long time is actually your body starts to adjust, because our bodies are very adaptive. So if your body is used to having three or four drinks every night, your body's going to start to accommodate to that. And so what we see is actually changes in the brain. So you see changes in the amount of receptors you have, the amount of hormones you have, your dopamine levels, your stress hormone levels. So your brain is actually adapting to the effects of alcohol. So one thing you may see is that you actually don't get the same effect. So it used to be that two glasses of wine made you feel a certain way, and now you need three or four to feel the same way. That's a concept called tolerance, that your body is adapting to having that alcohol around all the time, and your brain's actually changing. The reverse of that is if all of a sudden you stop drinking, you're going to feel all out of sorts. You're going to feel shaky, you may have a headache, you may feel anxious, you may feel nauseous.

And that's because your body's gotten so adapted to always having alcohol on board that it takes time, actually, for those changes to reset.

When you really stop and think about the roller coaster, you're putting your brain and your hormones and your body through. Like, it does make you pause. And that's kind of, that's what I wanted to do with this conversation, is to make you stop and think about what's actually happening and the reasons why you reach for it. Can you talk a little bit about, for anybody that's taking prescription drugs for anxiety or depression, the impact that alcohol can have?

Yeah, there's a couple really important things to know. First, alcohol itself can cause depression and anxiety. So if you are, even though you feel like in the moment, it's helping relieve symptoms. There's actually something called a substance induced mood disorder, where you can get, you can look all the world like you have depression, and it's actually caused by using alcohol heavily over time. So you may, if you're drinking heavily, you may actually be running, you know, working again at cross purpose with your efforts to try to manage your depression or anxiety. The other thing is there are some types of medications that are really dangerous when they mix with alcohol and anxiety medications in particular, especially any medication that also has sort of a slowing down effect. So some people take medicines in a class called benzodiazepines. So things like Xanax or klonopin or Ativan, those, when mixed with alcohol, have sort of a combination effect that can actually slow down youre breathing, could cause an overdose, could make you very sick, could make you more sort of impaired sooner. So really important to not mix those medications with alcohol.

Wow. How does alcohol compromise your memory?

So, alcohol affects all parts of the brain, including the amygdala, which is an area that lays down memory. And it has complicated actions in the brain, so it increases sort of more slowing down hormones. So we think of it as a depressant because it sort of slows you down and relaxes you, and it decreases more excitatory neurotransmitters. In the short term, because your consciousness is being affected, you won't be making new memories over the long term. Heavy alcohol use can actually cause dementia. It can cause severe memory problems. There's actually a unique condition that we only see with alcohol, generally, where the part of your brain that lays down new memories gets damaged. And people get basically an amnesia syndrome where they can't make new memories. So they can only remember things from the past, but they're unable to make any new memories. And that's a very extreme example, but we see it in the hospital, and it's really scary when it happens.

What do you see when you look at a brain where somebody's been a heavy drinker versus somebody that's occasional or very light?

We actually see brain damage on people who've had chronic heavy alcohol use over many years. So if you take a picture of the brain, like with a CAT scan or with an MRI, what we describe it as is volume loss. So normally, you want to see a big, healthy, robust brain. And as you age and with types of dementia, one thing that we see is the brain starts to shrink. So, like, the actual functional parts of the brain are smaller. We see that process accelerated with heavy alcohol use so often. Take someone who's in their fifties who really shouldn't have volume loss of their brain at that age. But if they've been using alcohol at a very heavy amount for a long time, we'll often see their brain looks like a much older brain because of that shrinking. And then there are very extreme examples, like this rare memory condition where we literally see that part of the brain almost die. Like, you can see it light up, that it's been severely impacted.

That's scary.

It is really scary.

So I want to start our talk today by just asking you a couple questions. They're easy. Don't worry about it. You don't need a pen or paper. You can answer these in your mind as I ask you. You ready? Here's the first one. Can you name the last five artists that won artist of the year at the Grammys? Me either. Or what about the last five companies that were at the top of the ink 500 list? The last five winners of the Olympic gold medal in women's gymnastics? Nope. Me either. You want to know why? Because it doesn't really matter to the average person. Right? Who cares? But I bet you can name your five favorite people that you've ever worked with. Just stop and think about them. You probably even see their faces pop up into your mind. Or how about the five people that you always laugh the hardest with? Like, you know, if you're going to see these five people, you are going to have the kind of laughter where, like, your head hurts, you're laughing so hard. Or what about the five people who had the biggest impact on your life?

Five favorite memories with your siblings. Or if you don't have siblings, five of your favorite memories with your parents. Here's another great thing to think about. Think about the five people you used to spend a ton of time with, but you don't see them anymore, but you really do miss them. You know what's interesting about all those questions I just asked you? I bet you can answer all of them. You can give me five specific names or five specific memories for every one of those questions. Why? Well, because of how those people made you feel. And that brings me to today's topic. So I mentioned this research study. The research study I want to talk to you about is called the American Time Use survey. And it's this big study where researchers collected data for over ten years. And here's what they were looking for. They were looking at how social connections evolved through the average person's lifetime. And I'm sure you've heard that saying. It's all over the Internet that you are the average of the five people you spend the most time with. And there's no doubt that having healthy relationships with other people and with yourself is one of the single most important pillars of a great life.

Now, what we're going to look at today is what the research found over ten years about who you spend time with over the course of your lifetime and how that changes over the course of your lifetime. Now, one giant caveat is that they only looked at data over ten years with Americans. And regardless of where you're listening, though, or whatever your cultural background might be, I guarantee you there is something that you will learn in this data that will make you approach your relationships differently. It will make you look at friendship, your relationship with your parents or your siblings, where you're working, your relationship with your kids, with your partner, with yourself in a very different way. I know it did for me. And so here's my intention with our conversation today. My intention is to wake you up, to wake you up to the reality of how time is passing you. Bye. And how much of your time you're probably spending on things that are not important to you. And so here's how the conversation's going to go today. I'm going to walk you through the six key takeaways. And if you want to see the data and the charts, which I think you would find them very compelling, all you got to do is go to my social media melrobins, that's the handle on all the accounts.

Or go down to the resources which we have for every show, and we will link to the post, because I want you to see the grass with your own eyes, because they are so compelling. And I got them right here in my hand. Okay? And when you see the reality, and that's what I want to hammer into your head and my head, the reality. The reality of how time is impacting your relationships with your parents, your siblings, your partner, your friends, your kids and your coworkers. This is not a fantasy. This is the reality of your life. And I want you to be more intentional from this point forward about how you spend your time, who you spend your time with. That's what this is about. To align your life with choices that match the reality of how fast time is going by. And look, everything that's already happened, that's in the rearview mirror, we cannot change the past. We know that. But you can learn from it, and you can learn from this data, and you can take from this moment and look forward, and you can use the data you're about to learn to change your life for the better.

So let's go through these six crazy statistics on who you spend your time with over the course of your life. And the first one is about family. So let's talk about your family. I mean, everybody loves to complain about their family, don't we? In fact, as I record this right now, I'm in a bit of a little, like, you know, tiff with one of our kids. They haven't talked to me in 48 hours, and so I'm not immune to the kind of challenges that can come in family relationships. But this little tiff will pass. And I noticed that anytime I post something online about narcissism or toxic behavior, you guys go crazy over those kind of posts. Yeah. Yeah. Cut them out of my life. Yeah. Narcissists. But today, I want to talk about the reality. And the reality is, your time with your family is limited. And I'm talking about both your parents and your siblings. Your time is limited. And I'm going to break this down for you, because I don't think we stop and think about this in terms of the data. We think about it in terms of kind of generally how your life feels.

But let me just explain what happens for the average person from zero to 18. Those are the years that you will spend the most amount of time that you have with your parents and your siblings. And sometimes that time can feel like a prison. But the truth is, when you zoom out and you really look at the data, it's very sobering. Here it is. When you turn 18, the amount of time that you spend with siblings and parents, it basically drops off a cliff and you know this. And it keeps dropping until you reach about age 26. And when you reach age 26, based on the data, you are now at a flatline for the rest of your life. That whatever time you're spending on a daily basis with your family, meaning your parents and your siblings, that's it. And if you're lucky, it tops out at less than an hour a day. Now, for those of you that are part of a big family farm, or you have a big family business, or you're a family where you have a multi generational house, which I think is super cool, you see your family a little bit more than average.

But I want you to stop and think about this. You never see your family, do you? I mean, we lived a mile from Chris's oldest brother as we were raising our kids outside of Boston. We never saw them. And Chris and I, we would talk about it all the time. Why don't we hang out with your brother more? It's almost like because they're family, you sort of put them in the box of just defaulting to see them over the holidays. Right? And here's another example. My mother in law, she lives 3 miles from me. Now. She's 86, and her social calendar is busier than mine. Plus, I work full time. I'm lucky when she's here in Vermont, if I see her once every two weeks. Why? I don't know. I guess I don't really prioritize it. It's not that I don't like her. I just don't really think about it. And let me just take a giant highlighter and really put this in perspective about how fleeting your time is with your parents and your siblings. My dad, Bob, he is turning 80 this year. His father was dead by the age of 81. Chris's dad died at the age of 69 from esophageal cancer.

So let's just say I'm lucky and my dad lives another ten years. Now, my dad and mom, they live in Michigan. So I only see my dad three or four times a year. So let's put that in the context of how much time I have with him. If he lives ten years, that's 30 more weekends with my dad. When you do the math that way, doesn't it make you think differently about it? Like, take my sibling, my brother, he lives in Chicago, and Derek's got two twin boys who are freshmen in high school. And his public high school schedule and our public high school schedule, they are not on the same breaks ever. And so it's not like we can go on spring break together. Plus, his kids are in competitive sports all summer long. Our son's gonna go to college next year. When are we gonna see each other? And this isn't a statistic where I'm trying to guilt you. This is the facts. And I don't know what kind of relationship you have with your parents or with your siblings. So I wanna ask you this question in the context of this statistic, especially as your parents are getting older.

If you think about this moment and you look forward and you think about the limited amount of time that you have, what kind of daughter or son do you want to be from this moment moving on? What kind of a brother or sister do you want to be from this moment moving forward? And look, maybe you've been listening to the experts that we've had on narcissism and difficult people, and you're like, that's it. I'm cutting them out. But for most of us, when you really stop and think about the reality that time is slipping through your hands and this person is the way that they are, and they are the way that they are because of their upbringing, their past experiences, and their unhealed trauma. And there's nothing you're going to do to change it, but who do you want to be? And I want you to really think about this. This is why I call my parents three times a week. I just do it to check in because of who I want to be. And I find personally that the more that I check in, the better our relationship is. The more that they soften, the warmer that they are.

And I realize why. It's because when I call, they don't feel forgotten. And it does make me incredibly sad to think that I might only spend 30 more weekends with my dad. And look, I need to say my mom and dad, but my dad's older, so he's the one that's top of mind. And my mom just turned 75. She's still kicking. So, mom, I need to see you, too, in case you're listening. And as I'm sitting here, I can't help but think, and I bet you're starting to think this, too. You know, maybe I should find a weekend in the next month to go down and see them. I mean, you just never know, right? Even though I saw him a couple weeks ago. Maybe I should make another plan. And I think that's a big takeaway. First of all, your time is limited. Do the math and think about how little time you actually have. And the second big takeaway is always have the next plan for when you're going to see them next. That helps me a ton to know that I've got something in the books, we have something to look forward to, and that I'm checking in just because that's the.

The kind of person that I want to be. And it's important that you think about this, because enjoying your relationships is not just about savoring them and being grateful that you have the time to have with them. Because we all, and I don't mean to be making fun of being grateful, but it can become very surface level. My message today is look at the data, look at the reality. And if you value this, your parents and your siblings wake the hell up and start prioritizing it. And that's what I've been doing. In fact, over the holidays, we went on two back to back grandparent trips. I don't know if you've done any of those, but when the big milestone birthday happens, it's pretty awesome. Chris's mom turned 85, and so she brought together her three sons and all the kids, which meant nine cousins, six adults, and Judy and her partner on two sailboats. It was super awesome. And here's what I realized as we were all together. Do you know the last time that all 18 of us got together? It was ten years ago. And I bet that's true with your family, too, because the older you get, the harder it is to get everybody together.

Like, if I think about my family on Chris's side, nine cousins, they're all over the place. We've got cousins in Texas and Colorado and New York City, and some in college and some graduate, and they're living their lives. It's the reality. And it's difficult to get that many people together. And so I'm proud that we did that for Chris's mom, for her 85th. And by the way, right after that, we went and spent the weekend with my entire family to celebrate my mom's 75th. And if you've ever been at a big gathering like that, a milestone birthday for a parent or a grandparent where everybody's there, I'm willing to bet it's one of the happiest times you'll ever see him. Because it's insanely difficult to get everyone together once people turn 18. And that is what the state is saying. Your time with your family is incredibly scarce once you turn 18. Take it seriously. And you want to know one thing I'd love for you to do, one way you could take it seriously? Share this episode with your siblings and your parents and your kids and your favorite niece or nephew or your cousin or your favorite aunt.

And if you're listening to my voice right now, because one of your family members sent this episode to you, the message from that person in your family to you that they wanted me to deliver is this. They miss you. They love you. This matters. So let's get a date on the calendar, and let's get together, because we're going to regret it if we don't have. And time is going to keep on going regardless of what we do with it. So make a date and make it happen. I told you this would be eye opening and sobering and inspiring. And that's just statistic number one about who you spend your time with over the course of your lifetime. We still have five more statistics to unpack, all of them equally profound. The next one is very eye opening because it's about what happens to you between the ages of 20 and 60, this 40 year span. During the ages of 20 and 60, who do you think you're spending most of your time with? The answer will surprise you, and we're going to unpack it when we come back. Stay with us. Welcome back. It's your friend Mel, and you and I are talking about six shocking statistics.

I got the graphs right here in my hand, and it's shocking statistics from a ten year study on who you spend your time with over the course of your life. And this really changed a lot for me. It's a study called the American Time study. It's a ten year study, and when I first saw these six takeaways from the study, it was depressing. And then once I kind of sobered up a little bit from the depressing news, it lit a fire under my ass, and it pushed me to prioritize certain relationships while I still have the time to do it. Now, you and I have already covered takeaway number one, which is when you turn 18, the amount of time you spend with your parents and your siblings falls right off a cliff, and then it flatlines at age 26 for the rest of your life. And if that bothers you, the message is, do something about it. This is happening not because your siblings hate you. This is happening because of how we start to spend our time as we age. There is data that explains all this. But just because this is the average, you don't have to be the average.

You got that? Good. So let's dig into the next five. Okay. And this next one is really interesting. The second key takeaway shows who you spend the most time with between the ages of 20 and 60. Any guesses? If you guessed your coworkers, bing bing bing bing bing. You're right. So what is the takeaway from this? Well, the takeaway is something that I believe is really important for you to grasp. It's this. The people that you work with day in and day out have a huge impact on the quality of your life, because based on research, 40 years of your life, these are the people you spend the most time with. Be choosy. It's not just about the money. If you prioritize a great work environment, which I want you to do, you're not only going to reach your financial goals, but you will also surround yourself with coworkers that create energy in your life and that help you tap into a deeper potential inside of you. See, your coworkers are a net positive or a net negative. And so I want you to think about this, because, you know, we think about work in a really selfish and narrow way.

What's my job? What's my title? How much money do I make? How do I climb the ladder? How do I get this? How do I get that? But I want you to kind of lift your head up and wake up to the fact that you're going to spend 40 years in the workforce or volunteering or doing something outside the house. And the people that you are doing that with really matter. Companies are not just spreadsheets. Companies are made up of people. So pick good people. And one more thing, because I can hear you start to go, but, but, but you're not stuck with a boss. You're not stuck with a toxic coworker. You're not stuck where you're working right now. And if I ask you, name your three favorite coworkers that you've ever worked with, immediately three faces would pop into your mind. You'd immediately remember laughing in the break room or that all nighter that you pilled doing something or some other thing that you did while you're on the road for work. If I asked you, name the most toxic person you've ever worked with. Boom. Bad apple right there. Cannot stand that person.

See them coming? Duck into a cubicle. Oh, my God. Avoid them like the plague. In fact, there's research that shows that person you're thinking about, if they are festering, they can take down an entire team. It's called the bad apple effect. This is how important the people around you are in terms of influencing how you feel in your day to day life. And there's just endless research about why people leave jobs. And one of the biggest reasons why people leave a job, this comes from Gallup. Number one reason, is because they can't stand the person they work for. So here are the takeaways. Do not stay in a job you hate with people you hate. Do not tell me you need the money, because the fact is, if you have this job paying you this much money, you can find another job in a better environment that also pays you that money. And I'm not hearing your excuses. I'm not hearing any of the b's that you're about to spit out that you can't make it happen. Or I live in this place, but I'm this years old, but that this is 40 years of your frickin life.

Second, if you don't like the people you're working with, be intentional about either getting out of that company or cultivating relationships with people in other departments while you're looking for another job. And finally, just like there can be a bad apple at work, be the ripe apple. Don't let the attitude of where you're working bring down your attitude, because there's always something you can do. And I want to wake you up to the fact that where you work and how you feel at work and the people that you are spending time with are going to make up 40 years of your life. And as time is passing and it's going to keep on passing, you get to choose whether you're going to be in a place that lifts you up or brings you down. And that's takeaway number two. Between the ages of 20 and 60, you spend the majority of your time with your coworkers. So get serious about where you're working. All right, let's go to the third statistic. And I'm going to warn you, the third statistic right here. Got the chart right here. This one's a little sad because it explains why you never see your friends.

I want you to reflect on your own life for a minute. Can you pinpoint the age when you really started to feel like you didn't see your friends as much? You got that age of mind. It probably doesn't surprise you when you hear that for the average person, the time you spend with friends starts to decline at the age of 21 and over the course of your twenties, you start to see less and less of your friends. And that brings us to the pivotal age of 29, where all of a sudden, the amount of time that you spend with your friends on a daily basis drops off for the rest of your life. And for most people, here's what that means. Your friends become the group that you spend the least amount of time with as you age. I'm going to say that again. For most people, as you age, friends are the group of people you will spend the least amount of time with. And if you stop and think about it, it kind of makes sense, right? I mean, just think about your own experience. You saw your friends every day in middle school and high school, or if you went to college or to trade school.

And then what happens? You graduate and maybe for a year, some of you move in together, and then exactly what the data says starts to happen in your twenties, doesn't it? Everyone starts to do what you're supposed to do. You start focusing on your own life and creating a life for yourself. Maybe you move to a different city, or you have different roommates, or you take a job that takes you in a new direction, or you go to graduate school and that consumes your life, or you meet somebody and start falling in love, and then you start to spend more time with them. And slowly but surely, it's not the same. In fact, I see our daughters going through this right now. They're 25, 23 post college, and the words they use evaporate, dispersing. Everyone I went to school with is going in different directions, and I really feel it. And based on the data, this is going to keep happening until you turn 29. And unless you do something about it, the amount of time that you're going to spend with friends after you're 29, it flatlines. Why? Well, you now know because of takeaway number two.

You're spending all that time with your coworkers. And as you're going to learn in the next three statistics, a partner starts to enter the scene. Perhaps children, if you decide to have them, they start to enter into your world as well. But here's my message. This data is the average, but you are not average. This is what happens to people who are not paying attention, who are just letting life sweep them downstream. You can create whatever you want. In fact, you know, as I think about some of the conversations that we've had recently, you'll probably remember me saying that one of the main reasons why people get so stuck and lost in life is because they don't know what they want. And that's why I was like, oh, my God, I have to talk to you about the American Times study. I have to share these statistics with you because I want to wake you up and make you realize that this data is reflective of what's happening in your life. And if you're feeling lonely or you've lost touch with friends and it bothers you, you don't have to live like that. If you don't want to be in a crappy work environment, you don't have to let it define your life for a decade.

If you like your family and you really want to see them and you kind of. You got to make it a priority. I'm not immune to any of this data, either. I mean, I feel like my friendships evaporated. And I also feel. I don't know if you feel this way. Maybe this is something that happens when you get older, but I tend to feel like the people that I like also would prefer to be in bed on a Friday night. You know, I'm the kind of person that I can text you at 09:35 p.m. and be sound asleep at 937. So having this framework and having these statistics and these graphs that you can check out and the resources, it really helped me because I'm like, oh, it's not just me. Oh, this makes a lot of sense. Oh, this is what happens in life when you're not really intentional about what you want. And so let me share a framework with you that has really helped me around friendship because I do want to see my friends. But this framework will really simplify it. You ready? When you think about friendship, think about two P's.

And I'm talking about cultivating friendships. So you are going to be friends naturally based on the first p. And the first p is patterns. So when you have overlapping patterns in your life, you tend to become friends with people. For example, work. You show up at work every single day. That's a pattern. You tend to become friends with people at work because you have an overlapping pattern. Another one. Your kids are playing on the same sports team. There's a pattern. Another one. Maybe you've taken a pickleball and you're in the same league, or you're taking an introduction to pickleball class. There's a pattern. You can become friends with those people. You frequent the same coffee shop. There's another pattern that overlaps you with other people and makes it easier for you to become friends. Now that brings me to the second p. You're only going to see the people and become friends with people that you prioritize. Period. End of story. Because even if you have all these patterns in your life and you bump into people at the coffee shop or at work, or you stand next to them on the sidelines, unless you prioritize it, you make a dinner date.

You invite them to a painting class at the local museum. It doesn't happen. And you don't always need to make new friends based on the patterns. Most of the people that I love and that you love, they probably don't live anywhere near you. I know it's annoying, but you've got to make it a priority to create a plan to get together once a year. That's it. Patterns prioritize. Otherwise, what? After 29, you're screwed. It drops off a cliff and you're not going to see these people. It's happening for everybody, but it doesn't have to happen for you. So that covers the first three statistics, and there are three more incredible time truths about who you spend your time with. Over the course of your life. And if this last one about friends or the family is like, oh, God, that's so depressing, I don't know if I can keep listening. You better keep listening because there's a whole lot of good news coming up. And the whole point of this conversation is for me to get you to truly stop time for a minute and ask yourself, what do I actually want? What do I want to feel in my life?

Who do I want to see in my life? Who do I want to surround myself in my life? Who is a priority moving forward? And I think you're starting to get my main message loud and clear. Time is going to pass you by. No matter what. You get to create what you're doing in the time that you have. So coming up, we're going to talk about what happens when you turn 29. Yes, your friendships fall off the cliff and flatline. But something else interesting happens. There's actually a person that you will be spending more and more time with for the rest of your life, and we're going to talk about who that person is when we come back. Stay with us. Welcome back. It's your friend Mel Robbins. And you and I are talking about the american time study and six shocking statistics on who you spend your time with over the course of your lifetime. And you've already learned that at the age of 18, the time you spend with your parents and siblings drops off a cliff unless you do something about it. I hope you have already forwarded them this episode. You're probably thinking also about the fact that statistic number 240 years of your life, you're going to spend it with your coworkers.

And now you're thinking, as you're driving to work, oh, my God, I got to look for a different job. Or hopefully you're thinking, I'm the luckiest person on the planet. I work with people that I love. How cool is this? We've also just unpacked the third statistic about friendship and how friendships basically peak at the age of 18, meaning the amount of time you spend every day with them. And as you get older, it gets harder and harder and harder to spend time with friends unless you pay attention to the two p's I taught you. What are the patterns in your life? And who are you making it a priority to spend time with? Take the initiative. And I just want to remind you again that this awareness of these trends, of how you're spending time, self awareness, is the foundation of creating a better life. Because if you don't know what the issue is, you're never going to be able to solve it. And the issue is simply that we all just go through life and let time pass us by. You have the opportunity from this moment forward, to be the architect of building a life that makes the most of the time that you have.

And just because these are the trends in data and these reflect what most people are experiencing, it doesn't mean that these need to be the trends in your life. And I was so personally moved by this data that I wanted to share it with you because I believe that knowing this, it will empower you to make very meaningful changes. I think everybody needs to hear this. I think everybody is struggling with this and kind of feeling it, but not really understanding the context. And to me, when I look at the stuff that we've already talked about, no wonder loneliness is an epidemic, because nobody understands why it's happening. When you see it over the course of a lifetime, in terms of the trends of how you're spending your time and who you're spending it with, you start to see, oh, oh, of course, you become lonelier unless you do something about it. And if you don't understand what's happening in the background, you think you're the problem and you're not the problem. It's not true. The problem is that time is passing. And the more that time passes, the more you just kind of go with it.

And I want you to do the opposite. I want you to feel inspired and empowered to get intentional about how you're spending your time. Because how you spend your time is what your life is all about. And that brings me to the fourth takeaway, which is that your life partner is probably the single most important decision you will ever make. This is that statistic. At about age 29, there is a person that enters your life, or multiple people as you're dating around, that you start to spend more and more and more time with as you age. And here's the thing I want you to understand. Do not rush this decision. Do not get married to someone who you know in your gut is probably not the right person, but you kind of feel like you should do it because everybody's getting married and you're getting to be that airy age, and you're starting to get a little worried. Do not settle, because the time you spend with your partner increases every single year until the day of your death. And after age 60, this person that is your life partner, they really matter, because it's the person you will spend the majority of your time with for the rest of your life.

And that's kind of a great test. Like, if you're dating somebody right now, don't look at the person who's standing in front of you right now, you know, with the nice car and the fake tan and the group of popular friends and the really cool profile on a hinge. No. Ignore what's in the present. Close your eyes and ask yourself this. Is this person? Like at their core, is this person on the inside who I would want to be alone with every day, day in and day out when I'm 60? And I want to remind you of the questions about naming your five favorite memories with friends or family. What do they all have in common? Those memories about your favorite friends or the people that make you laugh the loudest, or memories with your siblings. They're all about how someone makes you feel. And when you are choosing a partner, dear God, focus on how they make you feel. The looks are going to fade. The friends that seem all shiny and popular, they're going to disappear into the background. You know, that happens in the twenties. And it's hard to keep up with friends as you're an adult.

But this human being and how they make you feel, this is what you're signing up for for the rest of your life. And if you're single, what we're about to talk about next is really important to embrace right now. Because the very best relationship advice I can give you about choosing a partner to do life with is to choose life with yourself first. And by that, I mean do whatever you need to be doing in your day to day life right now so that you really like yourself and that you are proud of yourself as a person. You're proud of your character, you're proud of how you take care of yourself, how you talk to yourself the way that you spend your time. Because when you get the inside right, that relationship with yourself in terms of how you feel about yourself, you're not going to be swayed by the bright, shiny, popular people. You're going to be attracted to people with true character, someone who is worth going the distance with. And that brings me to the fifth statistic about who you spend your time with over the course of your lifetime. And it's this.

That when you hit 40 years old, the amount of time that you spend alone climbs and climbs and climbs. That means from 40 on, the number of hours per day that you are alone is going to increase those 30 years every single year from the age of 50 to 80. Based on the data, you are alone every day. More often. And for most people, after age 70, you're alone most of the time every day. Well, not me. I am going to an old person's home. You know, like one of those places that's like college for old people. Back to the dorms, hanging out with people. I'm not going to sit alone in this house. But joking aside, this is a huge takeaway. And the first takeaway is I want to normalize that it is normal to find yourself spending more and more time by yourself. And for me, this can be a really positive thing, because this is not a message about you needing to look out into the future and going, oh, my God, I'm going to be alone, and I'm lonely. No, this is about the need to learn to enjoy the time with yourself.

Because when you're really present to being with yourself, whether you're making a cup of tea or reading a book or taking a walk in the woods, think about it. You're not by yourself. You're with yourself. I'm with myself a lot. I'm in my car driving alone. I'm often at my house or working remote alone. I'm down in my kitchen making lunch alone. I'm heading out the door to go for a walk. And yeah, maybe Yolo and homie, my dogs may be there, but there's no other human being. I'm spending time with myself. But here's the thing, and this is what the opportunity is for you. I don't feel lonely. I enjoy spending time with myself, and that's what's available to you. And when I do start to feel like something's missing or I feel a little lonely because I have a good relationship with myself, I can see that. Oh, wow. Like, I'm missing connection and I can go back to the two p's. I either got to change my patterns of behavior so I start bumping into people again, or I've got to prioritize reaching out. And that almost always solves the problem. So the big takeaway here is learn how to love yourself and enjoy yourself and be kind yourself.

Learn how to sign yourself up for a yoga class and take yourself to it. Learn how to reach out to friends when you're feeling a little lonely and be the one that is doing that for yourself. Do that for yourself. Learn how to take yourself out to lunche or for a manicure. Learn how to be kinder to yourself. Learn how to find happiness in the time you spend alone. And you will enjoy the time that you have. Now, the final statistic on who you spend the most time with over the course of your life. This one is about kids, and it broke my heart. And you can probably guess what the statistic is going to say now that you know takeaway one. Remember takeaway one, which is that once you turn 18, the time that you spend on a daily basis with your parents and your siblings, boom. Drops right off a cliff. And by the time you are in your twenties, that number has flatlined. And unless you do something dramatic, it's not changing. And here's how that translate to our final statistic. When you become a parenthood. Depending upon when you first become a parent, the majority of the time that you have with your kids will happen in your thirties and forties.

And for most of us, there is a precipitous drop that happens in your forties. As your kids enter high school and they become more and more independent. You see less and less of them. The busier they get, the less and less of them. And that's supposed to happen. I mean, they're supposed to make friends. They are supposed to go build a life of their own. And then they turn 18. A lot of them go off to college or a trade school. And here's the sad news. Based on the data, when you turn 52, that number, which is the amount of time you spend with your kid, flatlines. And that's where it stays the rest of your life. And it is shockingly similar to how little time you spend with your own parents or siblings. Now, when I first read that, I beat myself up because I'm 55 right now. That window of time is closed. It's over. My kids are launched. Oakley leaves for college in the fall, still trying to figure out where, but he's going. And if I reflect back on those zero to 18 years, I spent way too many years of their childhood working.

I was traveling for work. I missed out on so many milestones, so many sports matches, so much in person time. However, I love knowing this statistic. And here's why I'm not allowing myself to become a statistic in this regard, because here's the thing. There is something you can do. You can become more proactive about going to your kids. You can become more proactive about creating and sustaining that relationship with them as adults. Yes. The whole point of parenting is to help your children grow up and become who they're meant to be, which means your job is as a guide and a coach through life. It means helping your children understand who are they? What do they value? What are the implications of their decisions? What are their passions? Who do they want to be? And if you take that approach that your kids are supposed to become independent human beings who are going to leave you and go build a life, that's what success looks like. You can still do that and not lose connection. And how do you do that? Well, based on every expert that's ever been on this show, it seems like the advice is the exact same.

Do your kids feel seen? Do they feel safe? And do they feel supported by you? Because if your kids feel seen and safe and supported by you, guess what? They're not going anywhere. And I want you to stop and think about your own experience with your parents. When you think of your fondest memories as a child, I bet it's in those moments where you felt safe or seen or supported. That's the glue. And the same is true with your kids. If I were to ask your kid, what are your fondest memories of childhood? I guarantee you at the top of the list are those moments where you made them feel safe, seen and supported. That's the secret to everything. If you have a complicated relationship with your parents or a sibling right now, I bet you feel none of those things with them. It is all about how people make you feel, and that means you have some control here, you know? And the interesting thing is, is that I don't know about you, but I've found that the older that my kids get, even though they physically left, they have not left. Emotionally. It's like they need me more, but they need me in a different way.

They don't need me to drive them somewhere. They don't need the money. What they need is someone that they trust, somebody who they know they can go to and get the support that they need, that they can talk to run ideas, bye. To call, to laugh, to talk through an issue with. It's a different relationship. And honestly, I enjoy this part of parenting way more than when they were little. I am not the best parent for little kids, but I am. I'm loving this adult parenting thing, which, by the way, here's my secret plan. To not be a statistic. I'm going to rope my kids into business with me, because then I can turn them into my coworkers, which means I'm going to see them a ton between the ages of 20 and 60. See how you can make the data work for you or against you. It's never too late. And that's the other thing here. When you know what you're dealing with in terms of what the actual issue is you can solve the right problem. The more that your kids or your parents or your siblings feel seen and supported, the closer you're going to be.

And by the way, it's never too late to apologize. I feel personally like I apologize all the time for things that I screwed up way back when or screwed up yesterday or could do a little bit better. And it doesn't weaken your relationship, it actually makes it stronger. So there you have it. Six surprising statistics about who you spend your time with over the course of your lifetime. Hey, it's Mel. Thank you so much for being here. If you enjoyed that video, by God, please subscribe because I don't want you to miss a thing. Thank you so much for being here. We've got so much amazing stuff coming. Thank you so much for sending this stuff to your friends and your family. I love you. We create these videos for you, so make sure you subscribe. Bye.