So you've had your night out, you've had a bit of alcohol, right? And you wake up, what is a hangover and what is actually happening in the body as you withdraw from the alcohol?

Yeah, hangover is fascinating. And I think people are still trying to understand exactly what is going on. So loosely defined what we refer to as hangover often is a constellation of symptoms that include headache, feeling anxious, often actually having diminished exercise tolerance. So you don't have the same aerobic capacity that you did before, feeling irritable. Those are all symptoms of hangover that people have probably experienced. There's an older school of thought that actually it was mild alcohol withdrawal. So withdrawal is when you are drinking so much that when you stop drinking, you actually get symptoms. It seems like that is likely not the case. The constellation of symptoms is quite different. And so the thinking is that it's a combination of really two things. One is dehydration. So we already talked about how alcohol make you pee more, and so you get dehydrated. And then the other is actually buy products from the drink that you're drinking itself, either the breakdown products of alcohol, or there are certain types of liquors and drinks that have other types of molecules, cogeners that can build up and make you feel even crumbier. So for example, clear alcohol tends to cause less of a hangover than dark alcohol, and that's probably because of the other substances that are in it.

But it's really toxic byproducts and dehydration, if I were to sum it up of what's causing a hangover.

Why is anxiety one of the biggest symptoms of a hangover, an alcohol withdrawal?

Yeah, it's probably the effect of these byproducts that then are still impacting the way your body functions, your brain, and it takes a long time for your body to excrete them. And so we can see just feeling that really anxious, restless, gross feeling afterwards.

Does alcohol impact cortisol or any of the other hormones that are in your brain that are playing a part in anxiety?

Yeah, it does, especially over time. And so what we see when people have been drinking over a long time is actually your body starts to adjust because our bodies are very adaptable. So if your body is used to having three or four drinks every night, your body is going to start to accommodate to that. And so what we see is actually changes in the brain. So you see changes in the amount of receptors you have, the amount of hormones you have, your dopamine levels, your stress hormone levels. So your brain is actually adapting to the effects of alcohol. So one thing you may see is that you actually don't get the same effect. So it used to be that two glasses of wine made you feel a certain way, and now you need three or four to feel the same way. That's a concept called tolerance, that your body is adapting to having that alcohol around all the time, and your brain is actually changing. The reverse of that is if all of a sudden you stop drinking, you're going to feel all out of sorts. You're going to feel shaky, you may have a headache, you may feel anxious, you may feel nauseous.

And that's because your body has gotten so adapted to always having alcohol on board that it takes time, actually, for those changes to reset.

When you really stop and think about the roller coaster you're putting your brain and your hormones and your body through, it does make you pause. And that's what I wanted to do with this conversation, is to make you stop and think about what's actually happening and the reasons why you reach for it. Can you talk a little bit about for anybody that's taking prescription drugs for anxiety or depression, the impact that alcohol can have Yeah, there's a couple of really important things to know.

First, alcohol itself can cause depression and anxiety. So even though you feel like in the moment, it's helping relieve symptoms, there's actually something called a substance-induced mood disorder, where you can But you can look all the world like you have depression, and it's actually caused by using alcohol heavily over time. So if you're drinking heavily, you may actually be working again at cross purposes with your efforts to try to manage your depression or anxiety. The other thing is there are There are types of medications that are really dangerous when they mix with alcohol, and anxiety medications in particular, especially any medication that also has a slowing down effect. So some people take medicines in a class called benzodiazapine, so things like Xanex or clonopin or Ativan. Those when mixed with alcohol have a combination effect that can actually slow down your breathing, could cause an overdose, could make you very sick, could make you more impaired sooner. So really important to not mix those complications with alcohol.

Wow. How does alcohol compromise your memory?

So alcohol affects all parts of the brain, including the amygdala, which is an area that lays down memory, and it has complicated actions in the brain. So it increases more slowing down hormone. So we think of it as a depressant because it slows you down and relaxes you, and it decreases more excitatory neurotransmitters. So In the short term, because your consciousness is being affected, you won't be making new memories. Over the long term, heavy alcohol use can actually cause dementia. It can cause severe memory problems. There's actually a unique condition that we only see with alcohol Claw, generally, where the part of your brain that lays down new memories gets damaged, and people get basically an amnesia syndrome where they can't make new memories. So they can only remember things from the past, but they're unable to make any new memories. And that's a very extreme example. But we see it in the hospital, and it's really scary when it happens.

What do you see when you look at a brain where somebody has been a heavy drinker versus somebody that's occasional or very light?

We actually see brain damage on people who've had chronic, heavy alcohol use over many years. So if you take a picture of the brain, like with a CAT scan or with an MRI, what we describe it as volume loss. So normally you want to see a big, healthy, robust brain. And as you age and with types of dementia, one thing that we see is the brain starts to shrink. So the actual functional parts of the brain are smaller. We see that process accelerated with heavy alcohol use. So often take someone who's in their 50s who really shouldn't have volume loss of their brain at that age. But if they've been using alcohol at a very heavy amount for a long time, we often see their brain looks like a much older brain because of that shrinking. And then there are very extreme examples, like this rare memory condition where we literally see that part of the brain almost die. You can see it light up that it's been severely impacted.

That's scary.

It is really scary.

We have so many listeners around the world who flutter us with questions when we told them that you were going to be here. And a lot of them are about how to deal with somebody that they love and they're drinking. And so I really want to hear your advice about what specific things you should do and what mistakes we need to avoid when there's somebody in our lives that we're concerned about. How do you approach this? What's the best way to bring it up? What is the worst. And by the way, I want to remind you that if you're thinking about somebody in your life, while the sponsors are talking to you, please share this episode. Let Dr. Wakeman talk to your loved one. It could be a life-changing gift for them to hear this. So thank you in advance for being generous with sharing this with people that you love. And I'll be waiting for you with Dr. Wakeman after a short break. Welcome back. I'm Mel Robbins, and you and I are here today with Harvard's Dr. Sara Wakeman. Dr. Wakeman, I'd love to How would you get your counsel on what you would recommend to somebody if your spouse doesn't think they have a drinking problem, but it's a problem for you.

Yeah, I think these are such important questions. One of the greatest tragedies to me around substance use disorder is often family members and the general public have been fed the wrong thing to do. I think it's a great thing to talk about. First, it's important to define what is an alcohol use disorder because that's what we're getting at. There's heavy drinking where we're worried about the long term health effects. And then there is where alcohol has become a problem in your life. And really, the definition of an alcohol use disorder is losing control over your drinking, compulsive use of alcohol, and using despite consequences. So if you are continuing to drink despite the fact that your partner has shared that they're really worried about you, or you've started to have problems at work because you're calling out sick, or you're continuing to drink despite health problems related to it. So your doctor says, You know what? Your liver tests are elevated. You really need to cut back on drinking and you continue to drink. Those Those are all signs that alcohol started to play a different role in your life. About 15 % of the population will have an alcohol use disorder in their life.

So this is a very common health condition, more common than many other conditions we see. The great news is that it's entirely treatable. Most people will get well. I think we often have in our minds that this is a terrible stigmatizing, recalcitrant condition that no one ever gets better from. That is not true. And that notion that this is something to feel hopeless about, I think, drives a lot of the stigma and shame. There's good treatment out there. People will get well, but they do need care and they need support. I think the first thing you can do if you're a loved one is just share your worries, not in a way that blames the person, not in a way that's judgmental, but in a loving way, just like you would about anything else with someone's health, that this is what you've observed, this is why you're worried, explore what the person thinks. And that becomes really important because when it comes to addiction, it really doesn't matter at all why I think someone should make changes to their alcohol use. The only thing that matters is they think their life will get better in some way.

And so really starting to untangle what are What are this person's goals and how is alcohol getting the way of them reaching it? That becomes the work. And a partner could be a wonderful mirror for that. I know you're working towards a promotion at work, and you mentioned that you had to call it sick twice this week, and your boss is frustrated at you. What do you think about that? So really exploring it. And ultimately, you're empowering the person to feel like they can make a change and that you're supporting them, but you're not forcing it on them, which is often what people feel caught up in having to do.

What is the mistake that you see people making?

I think people have So there are these notions of tough love, enabling, hitting bottom. Those are probably the biggest fallacies. So for people who aren't familiar with those concepts, the idea that tough love is that you really should make things hard on a person, that if consequences pile up, the person will ultimately get better. Enabling is the idea of that you're kind or caring to someone that you're actually hurting them in some way. And hitting bottom is this idea that people have to just fall so far and suffer some terrible consequence before they make a change. Those are all really problematic concepts for a couple So first of all, the definition of alcohol use disorder is not being able to stop despite bad things happening to you. And many people are drinking because it's a powerful coping mechanism. And some of the things that put you at risk for an alcohol use disorder are traumatic life experiences, untreated anxiety and depression, not feeling good about yourself. So having the only people that you love and trust in your life try to cut you down to size and tell you that you're doing something terrible and set some ultimatum is actually not going to help you get well.

None of us make hard changes when we feel threatened or punished or not supported. We do it when we feel loved and safe and have hoped that our life could be better. And so as a loved one, that's probably the greatest gift you can give to the person. Now, it's complicated because you're impacted by their behavior. So it's very easy as a provider. One of the things I love about doing this work, because I've been on the other side and had family members, and it's a different experience. As a doctor, whether or not my patient continues to drink doesn't impact me personally. I can just be their partner, their champion, work with them. For families, there are times where the behavior becomes so unsafe that people have to keep themselves safe and set boundaries, and that's okay. I think the distinction there is that it's not doing it for the person's benefit. So if you kick someone out of your house, it's not going to necessarily help them get better, but there may come a time and a place where people need to do that for their own emotional safety or well-being. But for that human being to help someone get well, and this is where earlier conversations are so important, is to really love and support them and work together on it and make sure they find access to good treatment, which is out there and available.

I want to just hover on this point that if somebody's reaching for alcohol and it's become a coping mechanism for dealing with stress or dealing with a health issue or mental health issue or whatever, insecurity, it's terrifying to give up the coping mechanism.

What do you see when it comes to that psychology of you're somebody family, whose family is like, You have a problem, and we're worried about you, and yet it keeps on going? How does shame or that fear that you have of, Well, I can't actually get through if I don't have the alcohol, or it's just easier. And what's the problem with having a glass of wine or two a night?

Yeah, so many important pieces in there. I think there's so much stigma in our society about alcohol use disorder and substance use disorder. And people, rightfully so, feel really ashamed and secretive. And sometimes long after they've started to worry about themselves, they're scared to tell anyone else because they think someone will judge them or treat them poorly. And that stigma and fear of bad treatment or judgment actually keeps people from seeking help for a long time. I think the other really important piece is that when you're removing something that has played a powerful role in someone's life, you need to fill up those spaces with other things. I think our Puritan roots as a society is we have this idea that you're You're doing something bad, you need to just pull yourselves up by your bootstraps and knock it off and white-knuckle it. And in fact, it should be hard. That's often these ideas of tough love and hitting bottom is like, well, you have done something bad and you You don't have willpower, so we're going to make it tough on you. When in fact, the broader concept is, why would someone make changes and how is their life going to get better?

And how do we make it easy to make a change? And so if you think about any change you made in your life, if you set yourself up for success, you're going to be far more They're likely to be able to make that change. So if you're suffering from trauma, depression, anxiety, you're not going to be able to just stop drinking without help. You need help treating the anxiety, depression, trauma, and also treatment for the alcohol use disorder. That's not because you're weak. That's not a failing. And if you're not able to meet your goals with whatever intervention and support you're getting, that's a sign that that support is not enough for you. So really shifting from this idea that the person is failing to thinking the system, the treatment, the resources are failing, and how do we adjust that instead of blaming the human being who's suffering?

I just want to thank you. I think it's very refreshing because so much that you listen to on this topic is, Don't drink. I expected Dr. Wakeman, you to come in here and just take your fist and slam it on the counter and talk about the lives ruined from alcohol. You might have that experience in your family as you're listening to us. But what she's saying is you have to understand how somebody is feeling and what's actually going to work to get them to want to see that something else is possible for them. Let's talk about urges because you have so many tools. It is unbelievable. In fact, we're going to link to this, but you've got 12 different tools or steps to coaching the people that you work with to control their urges. Can you walk us through that?

Yeah. So I want to start with the word control, because I think a lot of times people come to this work and they think, oh, yeah, controlling my urges would be, I can make them go away.

Oh, you can?

Well, unless you can get rid of your lower brain, we're not going to be able to make the urge go away. But notice how you're a little disappointed when I said that to you.

Yes, very.

Why are you disappointed?

Because it would be nice if I didn't have any urge, because then there would be no conflict because I wouldn't be thinking about it. Why? I don't know. Well, for example, I don't ever have an... I used to eat Big Macs, okay? No offense to McDonald's, but I used to love a Big Mac and an extra large fry. I would have the urge for it all the time. I haven't had the urge to eat a Big Mac in probably two decades, and I'm good with that. I I don't know if I actually would want to not have an urge for alcohol, because right now, I realize that that urge signals that it's time to turn off my brain. It's time to do something fun. And so what you're basically saying, if I'm now reading between the lines, is that I think the urge is for alcohol. You're saying, go a layer deeper.

Yeah. Saying, what if it has useful information for you?

Wow.

That's true. Controlling to me is my ability to manage and influence what's going to happen next. It's not, I got to delete every urge and make sure that they never appear And they must go away because they're bad and they're annoying, and I can't say no to them. It's like, well, I can have the urge. That urge can come up. Then what? And that's where I think the messages that we get, certainly And just say no, doesn't do a lot of good, because then all of a sudden, I'm at war with the urge. All of a sudden, it's become a battle. And as soon as I think I'm at war with something, now it's got power.

It's so true. It's so true.

Yeah. As opposed to like, okay, of course the urge is here. Or even just... I mean, one of my first things really is just naming that you're having an urge. And when I introduce that to people, it's always like, what is this woman talking about? You just want me to say, oh, I'm having an urge. And I think it's incredibly powerful and beneficial because all of a sudden, we're activating our higher brain. All of a sudden, we're not just on autopilot, we're narrating what's going on. Oh, this is an urge. Of course, I'm having an urge. It's five o'clock. My brain learned this is what we do. We get a reward at five o'clock. Of course, it's here. Because so often what happens with people is that the urge shows up, and when you want to change Change, right? If you're trying to say no, if you want to drink less, all of a sudden it's like, oh, God, the urge is here, and now my anxiety has just kicked on, too. Because I wish it wasn't there, and I wish it would go away, and I think that it's a sign that something is wrong with me or my brain is broken, or whatever.

And so can we just name it? Can we normalize it? Like, yeah, of course you're here. Of course, when I watch baseball, I'm having the urge for a beer because at some point my brain learned this This is what you do when you watch baseball.

What's so great about this is that whether you use the process that you've created, and it leads you to becoming sober and living a sober life, it's still empowering you to understand the psychological drivers so you understand and know yourself better. And that supports the work you're going to do if you are sober, or if you go through all of this and where it leads you is to just a totally different relationship with alcohol that works for you. You still have to do the deeper work to understand what are the urges and psychological data that is driving you to try to answer the urge with a drink. That's Really amazing.

Well, I think everything I'm teaching, yes, it's through the lens of alcohol and drinking and wanting to change that relationship. But to me, this is just a skill that we need across the board, right? Because we don't just have urges when it comes to a drink. We have urges around food. We have urges around spending money. We have urges to procrastinate. We're always going to have competing desires. We always have this part of us that has the dream and the goal, and this is what I want to do, and this is how I want to spend my time. And we have the part of us that's scrolling through TikTok, right? And looking for that easy way to distract ourselves or feel better or stay in our comfort zone. And so that's always going on. And I personally think that learning this work around my urges to drink is what took my life to the next level because it was like, okay, now I can apply this skill to anything that I'm doing. It's not unique to just saying no to a drink. It's not unique to alcohol. It's something that I can apply across the board.

It's an essential life skill.

Yes. And we don't teach people. This is what's so frustrating for me is we're constantly giving people messages, just say no, drink responsibly, enjoy in moderation, know when to say when. We're getting all these messages about what we should be doing, and nobody gives us the how. No Nobody explains how we're supposed to do it. And so I think what happens is people start to internalize, this should just be something I can naturally do. I should instinctually know how to say no, be responsible, right? Know when to say when. And if I can't figure it out, oh, something must be wrong with me, as opposed to, no, people give you a bunch of messages with no tools, no techniques, no understanding about the brain. I mean, that really infuriates me.

I can tell. And I'm glad you got mad because you figured out how to help all of us. So I wanted to know. So we're at this, you name the urge, and it Sounds like, what do you mean by name the urge? So let's just take, for example, the second that we are done, I'm going to have... The second I'm done talking to you. It's going to be dinner time. I'm going to leave my podcast studio. I'm going to look out at a beautiful sunset, and I'm going to have an urge to make a margarita. So when you say name the urge, does it Is just saying, did I just do that?

No. When it's happening. Oh, okay.

It's happening right now because now I'm talking about it.

I love the sunset piece, though, because the number of people that I have coached on, how am I supposed to sit on my porch anymore and enjoy a sunset? And it's like, sunsets were enjoyable before you started drinking, right? The brain started to associate, oh, I get a reward when I watch a sunset. So now when you take the reward away, it feels like something's missing from the sunset. That's what it's called. The Sunset. Nothing's missing from the sunset, right?

Okay. You're right, except for the drink. I'm making a joke out of this, but I'm not really this Cavalier about it, I do feel like there's two camps here. It's poison. Nobody should ever drink. Drinking is a problem. I can already feel people who listen to the podcast who are sober, and it is a really powerful choice for them, who are sober, and it's extremely powerful for them being upset by this conversation. And so I just want to say something, and that is this is a much deeper conversation than alcohol. And I want more people people to listen to what you're saying than just people who think they have a problem with alcohol. I want every human being to listen to this conversation and feel like this applies to you because it does. Because you're talking about the subconscious drivers that create your relationship to food, to alcohol, to money, to all of your behaviors, by the way. And alcohol is just one piece of this. And I'm going to keep on making jokes, because I think when I make a joke that now I'm thinking about the margarita, which is true, most people that have alcohol in their life actually operate that way.

When you see the sunset, you're thinking about the drink you're going to have tonight. So when I leave here and I have the urge, just as I'm walking downstairs, I say, Oh, I'm having that urge to make a drink.

Yeah. So you can say it to yourself. You can say it out loud. Both of it works. The idea is really just acknowledging what's going on. Like, oh, this is an urge. I'm having an urge right now. This is desire. Oh, how normal. Of course it's here. This isn't a problem. This is what my brain learned. I mean, I think of the number of times that I would watch Mad Men and immediately be like, I mean, I'm fixing a cocktail and smoking a cigarette right now, right? But there was no... I was on autopilot, and I just didn't have that full awareness of what was going on, as opposed to like, Oh, of course. This is desire. Of course, I'm having an urge to fix a cocktail and I'm going to smoke a cigarette right now because I'm seeing it in front of me, and I'm seeing it presented in this very sophisticated, enjoyable way. So it really is just starting to narrate. I think that's a It's a very, very powerful thing to start to be able to narrate what your brain is doing, because all of a sudden, you're not at the effect of your brain.

Part of you is watching it. And I will just add on the piece about it's poison and it's terrible. I really caution people about that. I know that there are people who find that very effective. They go down the rabbit hole of all the ways that it's harming you and it's bad for you. And I'm not denying that it can have negative consequences. But what I see happen to people, and I did this with myself as well, you start going down that rabbit hole of all the ways that it's harming you and all the poisonous, toxic effects that it's having on your body, and you're still struggling to say no, or you're still drinking more than you want, and now you're waking up the next day and you're doubly stupid because now you really Really should know better. So not only was it like, oh, God, why did I have that, like fourth glass? And I know all the harm that it's doing, and I know how bad it is for me. And so there's already so much shame around drinking. People are so hard on themselves. It just becomes like another layer of see, something really is wrong with me because now I know how bad it is.

I know it's poisoning me, as opposed to, listen, alcohol is a fact of being alive on this planet. It existed before humans learned how to harness the process of fermentation. So it's just part of being alive. So what if instead of fixating on it's so bad, the bad things that it's doing, I think that takes you away from this conversation that I think is more powerful. What does it represent? What is my desire really about? Why is it hard for me to say no? How do I feel when I'm the odd man out? What are those emotions that come up for me? That is so much more powerful area, I think, to start to get curious about rather than all the bad things that it's doing.

Well, I agree with you. And even when you said the word name, it's a desire. And when I gave that example of it's dinner time, the sun is setting, I'm going to make a cocktail, the truth is, the desire is to stop working. The desire is to exhale and stop thinking for a minute. The desire is to reward myself for a job well done. And In naming that, it also takes my focus off the drink, and it helps me get present to what I actually want.

One of the things that I do, actually, I don't know if you'll be able to see this, but But I have a little picture of me as a four-year-old looking very grumpy on my phone. It's all around my house. I've got a big one over my office. I've got it on a couple of mirrors. But the reason why I have it is because it's much easier for me to connect to that younger version of myself and say, what does she need? Because so often my internal conversation is like, well, you're not supposed to need anything. What are you complaining about? You're an adult. But if I think about What is she needing right now? When she's tired, when she's having desire, when she's frustrated, what does she need in this moment? Is it so much easier for me to answer that question on behalf of her rather than 42-year-old Rachel, who you shouldn't need anything, and you should be able to push through, and you should be able to get more done, and you have nothing to complain about, and you should be grateful for all these things that you have in your life. It's like, No, she has some needs, and that's okay.

What immediately came to mind is I need a hug. Yeah.

Isn't that harder to ask for sometimes than a drink?

Well, you can't order one from a waiter. It's true. And I can make myself a drink, so I don't have to ask for anything, right? Yeah. But I can see that when you showed me that picture of yourself, and I think about myself, like what If I go to the 14-year-old me, that red solo cup represented a hug and being welcomed into the group. Yeah. And so I can see what you're saying, that there is a desire to name when you feel that urge that is deeper than the food or the drink or the pair of jeans you're about to buy that goes way deeper, and that's what's driving it. And so, of course, you would want the thing. And, of course, not giving yourself the jeans or the ice cream Sunday or the Mai Tai feels like you're punishing yourself.

Yeah.

Wow. So once you label this desire and you start working through it, what are some of the things that once you've labeled it, you need to do so that the urge or this desire doesn't continue to drive you, but you start to change your relationship to the desire or the urge that you're having.

Yeah. I think a big thing is just watching it pass. So That's a huge thing that a lot of people struggle with. It's like, listen, if I don't say yes, it's going to be nagging me all night long.

Can I confess something to you?

Of course.

Is it normal for someone to be worried that you're about to tell me not to have a drink tonight?

That I'm about to tell you?

Yes. That you're about to coach me through this process of noticing the urge, letting it rise and fall And then at the end of this, I'm now going to have more conflict about the urge. And then you want to know how fucked up I am? Then I'm going to feel like this is now all evidence that I have an even bigger problem. That's how much of a shame cycle I'm in around this. And then I'm going to argue that, what the fuck is wrong with one goddamn drink? Why did you book Rachel on this show? See? I'm really torturing myself. Is this normal? Is this what you see in the people you work with?

Yes, this is very normal. I'm not going to tell you anything to do when it comes... I think that's actually a huge piece of of my approach is that I don't know what's best for you. I'm not going to tell you what to do because you're just going to be then looking to me or looking for someone outside of you to tell you what's right. I think you have wisdom and information inside of you, and that's not like a wink, wink, you shouldn't drink. I really do think that we have this ability to know what feels good for us and what feels like too much. But we can't access that if it's constantly in this place of like, oh, God, I shouldn't even be wanting this, or I shouldn't even have this desire.

I love your approach because I can tell you that in my 20s, 30s, and early 40s, I definitely had a drinking problem. No question. No fucking question. Whether it was the lever I pulled to relieve anxiety, or it was a escaping the shit show that my life had become when we were in financial trouble, or it was just a deep, I think, sadness and feeling lost and disconnected and how alcohol can make you social and make you fun and make you forget all that stuff. And just that constant cycle of drinking and then regretting that I drank and regretting what I said. And as I go deeper and I think about the person that I am now and the fact that, especially having a husband that doesn't drink. If he's not having a drink, most nights, I don't have a drink. And I've wondered, especially given that I have a much healthier and balanced relationship with it, why the hell I am so conflicted? Why am I not proud of myself? That I have gotten this to a point where it's not a problem, and it hasn't been a problem for a long time. And what I'm realizing is that it's so much deeper because it's about these desires and emotional needs that I've paired with alcohol.

And that I, at a fundamental level, make myself wrong for wanting things. And because I can't tolerate the desire riding up and not fulfilling it, you reach for something. Because you know what's interesting? I bet if I were to do something, I bet if I were to just play the urge game, I would notice something. And I bet this is what I would notice. I bet that on the nights that I don't drink, just because I'm not going to have a drink alone, and Chris isn't drinking, or I don't feel like having one, I guarantee you, I probably buy something I don't need, or I eat a big dessert, that I am probably so blind to the desire that that rides, that comes up in me that I don't even realize I'm just substituting one thing for another.

Yeah, I got so much freedom out of that. I'm really understanding that I was so fixated on my drinking for so long. And then I was like, wait a minute, maybe it actually has nothing to do with my drinking. Maybe it's the way that I approach trying to fulfill my needs and meet my desires and deal with negative emotion and give myself permission to have pleasure. And it was showing up in so many areas of my life. I didn't think more Or is better just with a drink. I thought it was better with food. I thought it was better with stuff. I thought it was better with success. I thought it was better with money. I thought it was better with praise. That was just the overarching principle of how I was operating. And it wasn't just showing up for me in one place. And I think that created a lot of freedom for me because I walked around for a long time being like, I don't know. I've got eight different problems. Problems, or not. Or maybe I have one thing that I'm working on, which is how to understand, identify how I'm feeling and what I need and how to be okay with an unmet desire.

Earlier, and how to fulfill it elsewhere.

That is incredible what you just said, that there is one super max problem underneath it all, and it's your unmet emotional needs, and how you are fulfilling them, and your ability to tolerate those moments when your unmet emotional needs go unfulfilled like that. You're exactly right.

It's just like such a relief was for me to be like, Oh, it's just one thing. I'm just working on one thing.

How did you figure this out? Was there a particular moment? Did you have a massive bender? And then you're like, I can't drink again. Then you reverse engineered this. Did you go to school? How did you figure this out?

I spent my 20s going back and forth between, I'm drinking, I'm not drinking, I'm drinking, I'm not drinking. But the not drinking was always, you were bad. You should be ashamed of yourself. Now it's time to punish yourself. We're just going to focus on saying no. And so I would say no and say no and feel like something was wrong with me, and I was missing out. And I was very healthy, but wasn't enjoying myself as much. And then eventually, I would give in and I'd go pick up right back where I left off. And so I was in this process in this cycle for so long. And I think I had some awareness that it was bigger than the drink. I don't know how, but I think because I understood that I felt like I wasn't able to access a part of myself without the drink. I remember believing that the fun, Rachel, the real Rachel, she comes out with a drink. And again, there was a part of me that was like, I don't think I always needed that. We may have to go very far back in time, but there was a much younger version of myself who felt comfortable in her skin and wasn't so worried about what people thought and wasn't always trying to avoid making mistakes.

That version of me existed at maybe I was three or four. I was very young, but I had I had that sense that she had been there, and somehow I had lost her. And so I think it felt like, okay, I need to figure out a way to return to that. I need to figure out a way to get that back. And I will tell you the work of Brené Brown, I found incredibly powerful because she talks about numbing. She talks about all of the things that we try to use. So she talks about... I remember this one paragraph where she's talking about the chips and queso and the cigarettes, and the beer, and the perfectionism, and all these things. And I remember reading that being like, oh, that's me. That's what's going on. So I started doing this work. I started learning about it. I decided I wanted to become a coach. And that's really how I got here. That's really the journey that I was on. I think in part, I was very frustrated that we have such a limited, narrow conversation how we talk about this. It's like, do I have a problem or don't I have a problem?

Am I an alcoholic or am I a normal drinker? We're very Black and white. And I think there are a lot of people that feel like they're in this in between, and being in that in between can feel incredibly frustrating. And it's like, nobody understands my situation or what's going on for me.

Yeah. And because It's been framed as two extremes. That always makes you feel like one's bad, one's good. You know what I'm saying? It's been really challenging to try to locate yourself. So when somebody comes to you and they say, I just want to figure out what a normal relationship with alcohol means for me, whether that means I never drink again, whether it means I have boundaries around it, whether it means How do I stop making myself wrong about it, what is the process you put somebody through? And how do we start it for ourselves?

Yeah. I think that one of the most important things to do is really first understand your mindset And when I say mindset, I mean, when you think about, well, what are my reasons for drinking? And what do I make it mean that I struggle to say no? What do I make it mean when I struggle to follow through on my commitment? What about the idea, even if this isn't where someone's going to land, but if you think about being told that you couldn't drink again, what about that would be upsetting for you? Because when you start asking these questions, it's going to reveal some of your big overarching thoughts about yourself, your ability to change, your urges, alcohol, all of that.

Can we take some of them and can you share some of the common things that you hear?

Oh, Well, I mean, over and over again, the thought that people have that I also shared is like, I'm just an all or nothing person. I think I have an addictive personality. I think I'm just very compulsive with my behaviors. I also had the, I think my brain is missing an off switch. So when I ask people, well, what is the struggle about? It's always pointing to something wrong with me, defective with my brain. Some part of me is not functioning correctly, as opposed to what And what I'm trying to help people see is what are the tools you need? What are the skills that you need to be able not only to be curious about your urge, but also to allow yourself to have this unanswered desire and not make it into a problem or something terrible that we have to avoid? But yeah, I'm an all or nothing person. That's a pretty common one.

I also, as you were saying some of these questions, I was thinking, well, what does it mean? Because you asked one about what does it mean to have a drink? I started thinking about all these situations like, well, it's celebratory. It is like you're celebrating somebody. It's something you do in groups. It's a lot of fun. It's a way to bond with somebody else. It's a way to enjoy something. I have a lot of like, I don't want to miss out. Somebody opens up, like we were at a friend's house the other night, And they opened up one of those super expensive French bottles of wine where you have to push the gray dust off of it that had been gifted to them by somebody. And I'm like, oh, I'm not going to miss out on that. I hadn't had a drink that night, but the second they pulled that out, it's like the gene of FOMO. This is going to be expensive. I'm going to try this shit. And so when you think about excuses, and the big question that you asked at the end, which is what was the big question? Because it made my heart go, Oh, God.

If you couldn't drink again, right? If it was like, Sorry, Mel, we're telling you you can't drink for the rest of your life.

I would feel like I'd never have fun again. Yeah. Like, I'd miss out on all the celebrations.

I'm sorry, how are we supposed to watch March Madness? Am I ever going to have sex again? I don't understand. What? There was I was just so... I was like, Are you kidding? So am I ever going to go to a wedding? Should I just not go to weddings anymore? I'm not going to have sex. We're not going to enjoy sports. I guess I'm never going to dance in public. There were just so many things. I was like, Well, you got to be kidding me. You're literally talking about a miserable life. So, yeah, no, thank you. I'll pass.

So what do you do if that's everything that you think? How do you handle the excuses? Because obviously, none of that's true. That's just a story you're telling yourself. And part of your methodology is getting you to go deeper than the thing that you are reaching for and getting to go deeper around these stories and these excuses that you have and understanding it. So when somebody fills all that out and they're like, okay, I'm never going to have sex. I'm not going to dance in public. I can't go to a sports game. My life will be no fun. All my friends who drink won't ever invite me I'm an awkward moment after awkward moment where everybody else orders a drink, and I'm like, Could I have a seltzer, please? Can I have the mocktail menu? And you feel like all of that, and I don't want to miss out on all the fun, and I don't want to do... When you write out your excuses, that almost makes you feel like you would retreat toward binge drinking.

Yeah, because it's like, Oh, we have nothing to look forward to, right?

Yes.

So one of the things I talk about in all those situations that I listed, the worst thing that's going to happen is a feeling.

That's true.

But I don't think we understand it that way. We're like, No, the worst thing that's going to happen is my life is going to be over.

Yes.

So you start to be like, Okay, so what is that feeling that comes up when I get on the dance floor? Totally sober. What is that feeling that I'm having when I'm sitting in the stands watching baseball and everybody has a beer, and I don't. What is that feeling? To start to identify the real issue here is not the drink. The real issue is this feeling that it's like, Oh, God, if this comes up, then there's nothing to I do, right? Mm-hmm.

What's interesting is I'm realizing that the more that you apply this to your life, the more that what you're doing is you're just teaching people how to handle the feelings that come with not reaching for what you normally reach for in that situation.

Yeah. I mean, it starts even just with identifying what the feeling is, because That's a huge piece of what I had to do a lot of work on because I was like, first off, feelings are gross. Why are we talking about them? I'm not a touchy feely person. So that was my starting point. Can we just let's talk about something logical, not be in this touchy feely emotional stuff. But then I was just like, I'm fine. I'm fine. Nothing's wrong. I'm fine. I didn't even really have the ability to articulate what was going on a lot of the time. That's a huge piece that I work on with people. It's like, okay, fine is not a feeling. How are we actually feeling? So again, much like your urges, the ability to just name and notice and also not make it a problem. I feel disappointed right now. How human of me. That's okay. We're supposed to feel disappointed sometimes. I can feel disappointed now because I'm not having the drink, or I can feel disappointed later because I didn't follow through on my commitment. But disappointments come in either way. So which one am I going to choose?

I'm reflecting on moments of my life in the last couple of years where I didn't drink and wouldn't have it, whether it's dry January or doing various challenges for a couple of months. Everything that you're saying is exactly right, because I would have these urges come up from 5:00 to 7:00 at night. And the second that I got through that the wave of feeling, and I didn't feel like having a drink anymore because it wasn't about the drink. It was about the desire of feeling a boundary with work or a desire to join in or a desire to feel that liquid hug or a desire to just be comforted. And it did pass. I guess what I want to make sure that anybody listening has is if you're like me and you feel... I feel much calmer now. I feel like I understand what the work actually is. If I want to get curious about what would a relationship with or with alcohol really look like for me that's very empowering. But for anybody listening, what is the place to start? How do you even begin this inquiry if it doesn't involve not drinking for 30 days?

What do you recommend your clients do when somebody comes to you and they're as spun around as I was when we started I had this conversation? Should I? I don't know. Is it poison? Is it this? Is there something wrong with me? Maybe there's something wrong with me. What's wrong with me? What is wrong with me? Why shouldn't I have? Where do you begin when you're in the middle of this very conflicted normal relationship with alcohol, which most people are in. I think most people live there.

Yeah, I agree. I start people with really just starting to learn about urges, learn about the brain, right? Learn about, yeah, I've got a higher brain, and I've got a lower brain, and they've got different priorities, because this is a piece that most people just have no awareness of because we're not taught anything about it. And I think really just learning, getting some basic information, that is the best place to start. It really is, because I think it does dial back the intensity of it because it's like, oh, wait, so you're Are you saying that an urge is normal and not a problem, and doesn't mean that I have to wear a label for the rest of my life? It's just dialing that back can be really powerful. Understanding, oh, I have competing desires. This is normal?

Oh, my God. I just got something. I just got something really powerful. Holy shit. I just realized the hidden freaking superpower in what you're talking about, which is if you focus and become very curious about the desire that comes up, the urge that comes up, the emotion that's underneath it all, the story that you tell yourself, you direct your attention to that exploration, which is so important, because here's what I'm realizing. Do you want to know why I always lose the battle with myself? When I wake up in the morning, I say, I'm not having a drink tonight. Or I start a Sunday night and I say, I'm not going to drink this week. I'll just wait until next weekend. And then Monday rolls I go around 6:00, I go downstairs, it's the sunset. I feel the desire to pour a gin and tonic because this is my boundary between work. I now understand what it is. When I Can you start to get in conflict with myself, Rachel? Well, you said you weren't going to have a drink, but I feel like having a drink. What's wrong with having a drink? Well, you said you wouldn't, and that's a lack of...

I have a drink to shut that conflict down. I'm not having a drink because I'm addicted to alcohol. I'm having a drink because I can't tolerate being in conflict with those two competing parts of me.

Holy shit.

That's why the drink Habit always wins because it shuts it down.

It's really even less about alcohol, right? It's just like, how am I making it okay and normalizing conflict? Like, internal conflict is okay.

Yeah. That's pretty cool. So you start by this inquiry, and you said you teach people about the higher and lower brain. Can you tell us about that?

Yeah. I mean, I will say that I thought the brain was just a lump. It's a lump in my head, and I just lost the brain lottery. That was my assessment of my own brain. It was just like, I don't know. I I just didn't get a very good one, or I got one that always wants more. So obviously, I'm not an expert on the brain. There are many, many parts of the brain, but I think just understanding at a very basic level, we have a lower brain that is concerned with the immediate moment. It does not care about tomorrow. It does not care about the future. It cares about right now. And that's a good thing, actually. That lower brain is really helpful for survival, but it cares about right now. It cares about finding pleasure, avoiding pain. It wants to do things officially. It wants to save energy. Now, thankfully, we also have a higher brain. We have that prefrontal cortex. We have that ability, that part of ourselves that can think about tomorrow and our goals and our dreams and our future. And it can weigh pros and cons, and it can get curious and ask questions.

We have both parts of the brain, and that's actually an amazing thing. If we start to understand, hey, how am I going to manage this lower brain? So I also talk about it like the toddler. How are you going to manage when the toddler is freaking out? The toddler, right? Like, watch my own children. It's like they want what they want when they want it. And trying to I have an intellectual conversation with them about why they shouldn't really want it, and this is not how we behave. You're not going to get anywhere as opposed to, okay, I have this higher brain. I have this adult brain. What am I going to do in this situation to navigate the tantrum that is actually going to be useful? Giving in, probably not so useful, because then what does the toddler learn? It's like, oh, this is how I get my way. This is a good thing.

So the higher brain is the one that you're using to tolerate the urge and to ride the wave. And the lower brain is the one that is going, Oh, sunset.

Desire boundary equals gin and tonic. Yeah, this is what we want. Yeah, this is what I want. You've taught me, when we watch a sunset, I get a drink. This is what we do, right? I remembered. See? I reminded you. I saw a sunset, and I was like, drink. Lower brain is doing its job.

Oh, my God. That's so helpful.

Because I think we all really understand. We're not going to have an intellectual conversation with the toddler.

No, you're basically going to go, I understand that you're upset, and that feeling or desire is value. That feeling or desire is true, and that's not what we're doing right now.

That's not what we're doing. And I know this is hard, and I'm going to be here with you. I'm going to stay by your side. You're not in trouble. You're not doing anything wrong. But I'm going to help you see yourself through to the other side. And you know what? It still will probably be a little uncomfortable, but so much less uncomfortable than, why are you throwing a tantrum? You're not supposed to be having a tantrum right now.

I know you don't tell people what to do, but is there any prescribed method? When a client that you're working with says, Okay, I want to try to tolerate the urges. I want to try to notice when the lower and the upper brain are in conflict and rely on the upper brain to get me through this moment where I'm going to go to a baseball game and I'm not going to order a beer. Is there anything that you tell people to do? Like, for five days, don't have a drink, or do you talk about specific scenarios? How do you get somebody to really start practicing this? Because I can also see how this, if you've been in conflict for a long time, this could become one of those things where you think about it a lot, but you don't actually try it.

Right. So I think that the process always starts with we got to learn something. We got to learn about how the works. We got to learn some of these tools. I have people take a 30-day break from drinking, and I believe it's very different than a dry January or a sober October, because what I'm always telling people is the 30 Every day, I want you to focus on using the tools. Yes, we are using the tools to say no, but I want you to focus on, this is me going all in on trying out all these techniques, all the techniques to manage my urges, all the techniques to talk back to my excuses, I'm going to be using these tools, and I'm going to be discovering some work better than others. So I always have to be in this place of assessing and adjusting. Did that work? Did It does not work? I think a lot of times what happens, dry January, there can be a lot of benefits, but the point is making it 30 days. And I'm like, Listen, we're doing these 30 days. It doesn't matter if you drink on day number two.

That's good data. That means something didn't work. Let's look at what didn't work. Let's examine that, and let's figure out what we need to do to prepare. Now, I will tell you, that's a huge mindset shift for people because a lot of people, they say I'm all or nothing when it comes to drinking. I actually think they're all or nothing about commitment. It's like, I either was committed and I did it right and gold star, or I broke my commitment, And now it's like, okay, why bother? I made a mistake, so now I get to have as much as I want. And it's like learning how to change means developing a different relationship with commitment. Like, okay, yesterday- Wait, do Say that again.

Learning how to change means developing a different relationship with commitment.

You can't have an all or nothing relationship with commitment. It can't be, I was good, I was committed, and I followed through, and I was good, or I broke my commitment And I was bad. That mindset, you're screwed.

So what do you do with that person who says, Okay, we're going to do the 30 days of not drinking, and I'm going to try the tools. And day eight rolls around, and it's a beautiful sunset, or it's a really bad day at work, or you get really, really horrible news. The last time I I wasn't drinking, I got news that a friend of ours died, and I was like, Fuck this shit. I'm having a cocktail. So if I were doing the 30 days with you, what is the data? What can I learn from that day where I didn't keep my commitment to myself?

Yeah. So there's a process that I have people go through to actually look back and understand what was happening in the moment, right? When you were When you were saying, Fuck this shit, what was going on? What were you saying, Fuck this shit, too?

Life being hard, commitment being hard, sticking to my 30-day promise being hard. Probably, if I go a little... That's at the surface. If I go a little bit deeper, it was being really pissed off and really sad that my friend had died and wanting to just numb it out, like I did not have to feel anything. And sticking to a commitment or changing, developing those new neuropaths. That's hard work. And so I did not want to have to work hard at sticking to a promise when all I wanted to do was fucking have a drink and lay down on the couch and cry about my friend.

Yeah. I mean, so all of a sudden, we get to see it through the lens of, Oh, it was sadness. It was grief. It was the belief that this This emotion is too big. It's too much. I can't handle it. I don't want to be with it. I shouldn't have to be with it, which also is so normal.

Yeah.

And so it's like, yeah, of course your brain went to the thing that it's like, I know How we get out? I know the shortcut. Here's the shortcut to not have to feel our emotions. We have to drink.

That's the lower brain, right? That's the lower brain going, I recognize this pattern.

Right. And so all of a sudden it's like, Oh, okay. This wasn't me breaking my commitment and being bad. This was me in the moment of having all of this pain and sadness bubble up, not feeling like I had an alternative for how to manage it or handle it.

How does recognizing that help you have a stronger muscle when it comes to commitment? You know, because you're right, because I'm sitting here going, I totally agree with you. All or nothing when it comes to commitment. You're either good or you're bad. You're either have integrity or you don't. You either stick to your promises or you're a fuck up, and you never will. You know, like that thinking. And If I take on a 30-day challenge and I fuck it up on day twelve, then I fucked up the whole thing.

Right. But remember, what did I say the goal of the challenge was?

It's not to not drink for 30 No, I know.

Isn't it to not drink? It's not drinking, right? We said not drinking. It's not drinking.

The goal was to use the tools.

Use the tools.

But I didn't lose the tools, so I actually didn't do the challenge. See how quick I am to go It's a bad Mel.

Okay, so now we don't... So this happens on day two, so day three, we can't go back to using the tools?

Yeah, we can. Yeah.

And we just make progress so much faster, right? When We're not... It's like, Oh, well, I tried, and that didn't work. Now it was bad. Now I'm going to go into a shame spiral, and I'm either just going to stop trying because it's like, see, nothing works. I'm just going to give up. Or I would either go into the like, Okay, nothing works. Let's just F it. I just have permission to drink and eat and do all the things that I want to do. Or I would go into the place of like, Okay, now we're going to make this super crazy restrictive rule because I was so bad. But deep down, I know I can't follow it at all.

People do that on diets nonstop. Yeah. I see such a direct parallel with the way we are all around eating. Yeah. And I want to go back to my breakthrough just a couple of minutes ago, because I'm starting to see that if you take on a 30-day challenge like this to use the tools, and to use the tools to not drink for 30 days as a way to learn and develop the muscle of commitment and understanding yourself better, if you screw up on day 2 or 12, or 28, and then you bash your sofa not having a perfect streak, the likelihood is I would then just bail on the challenge altogether because the amount of shame I I would throw at myself, and the conflict I would feel would be so much that I'd want to turn it off by having a drink. Yeah.

Except what if it wasn't a screw up? What if you didn't make a mistake? And I don't mean... I mean, what if The decision to say yes to the drink wasn't a mistake. It wasn't a screw up.

Well, how could it not be if I am making a commitment?

Because maybe it's trying to give you insight into something that you are missing, a skill that you don't have or a response that you don't have to an excuse or something that you're not aware of. Maybe you don't have the awareness, so I'm using it as a boundary. And maybe it's that moment where you're like, okay, I tried, and then it didn't It didn't work. And I said, yes. And then when you go back and look, it's like, oh. We can't get awareness just by being perfect. I think that's the misconception.

You You're right. You can't. And I just had another insight. The more I talk to you, the deeper we're going. Here's my big insight. I don't know if we have enough time to talk about this one. I realized that I hate being told what to do.

Oh, yeah. Me, too.

Even by myself. Like, It's like this rebel thing. You're not going to tell me what to do. Even if I said I want to do this thing, I'm not going to do that thing that I said that I would do. I'll show you. Is that a normal thing that you hear with people? Oh, God.

Yes. This is a huge thing. I often talk to people when they're really struggling. It's like, Okay, so what is the language that you're using to say no to the drink? They're like, Well, I'm just saying that I can't have a drink. Okay. When you tell yourself you can't have a drink, how does that make you feel? Pissed off.

Yes.

Yeah. Because here's the thing. It's not even true that you can't have a drink.

Explain that. You're like, but we said we can't.

Well, I mean, you're an adult woman. We're living in a country where alcohol is accessible. You have money, arguably, you have an app. Maybe it will deliver. You have a car. Of course you can drink. You're choosing to say no. Probably because my father was an English teacher, and so he's always hounding the importance of words. But there's such a big difference between when I tell myself I can't have something versus, okay, I'm choosing not to, and here's why. It still might feel a little uncomfortable for me, but I'm not pissed. I'm not seeking to rebel.

How do you get somebody to have a big enough why for doing this process?

Well, what do you mean when you say a big enough why?

Well, if somebody's already conflicted about whether or not they want to stop drinking, or whether or not they want to change their relationship with drinking, and I already see my anger is going going to come up. My rebel nature is going to come up. My toddler tantum throwing bullshit is going to come up. My concern that I can't make the streak is going to come up, and that's going to I know that I have a huge problem, and yet I still feel drawn to want to take this on. You know what it is? I literally am worried I can't do it.

But what's the thing you're worried that you can't do?

Stick to not drinking for 30 days, even though I've done it before.

And even though I told you you didn't have to do it, that was not the point.

Yeah.

Listen, I think- I'm trying to figure out how to do this right, and I'm trying to get to the right answer. Just so you won't be mean to yourself. I mean, this is all you're doing, right? You're like, oh, I'm just trying to avoid being an asshole to myself. Yes. If you just knew that you weren't going to be mean to yourself, if there wasn't a threat of, okay, when you screw up, we're going I'm not going to beat you up and say all the nasty, mean things.

I don't know. I've never tried life like that. No. I think I'm going to try the 30 days.

It's like, when And people are like, I don't want to try.

Not today. I'm going on a beach vacation. I'm reserving the right to watch a sunset. But no, I'm really interested in this because I'm tired of the conflict.

Yeah.

Within me. And I think there's peace that's accessible in this. And it is very freeing for somebody like me. And I think for a large number of you listening to go, oh, wait a minute. I don't have to choose between I drink all the time time, and I don't drink at all. I can end the internal conflict that I feel, and I can learn more about urges and desires and tolerating things and operate from my higher brain instead of letting my lower brain control me. And I can get myself out of this cycle of shame and management and conflict and all this shit by simply trying what you're saying for 30 days of using these tools and naming the desire and tolerating the desire and watching your excuses and going a layer deeper. And how do we get information on how to do this?

So you can go to rachelheart. Com, my website.

We're going to link to all this. We're going to link to all this. Yeah.

I just want to add, I will say that So much of this is just changing your relationship with yourself, right? Because if you knew that you weren't going to be mean to yourself when you weren't perfect, you'd be so much more willing to try it, right? You'd be so much more willing to say, I'm going to do this thing because I'm not going to make it mean that something's wrong with me, or I'm broken, or see, I really have a problem, or I knew I couldn't do it. And that's the thing that I think so often we're actually struggling with is how we talk to ourselves in the moment that we go with the lower brain, as opposed to like, oh, how normal. I don't have to make it mean that I'm broken, or something's wrong with me, or I'm a bad person.

I also see for myself that I have a story that it's going to It would be painful. And why would I... This is the story, by the way. It's probably coming from the lower brain. I have this story that it's going to be really hard. It's going to be really painful. I'm not going to have the fun. My work is already all-consuming, and I'm going to be missing out on something. And the fact is that But I'm missing out on peace with myself and being kind to myself. It's already really hard because I ride this conflict wave within me all the time, and I just silence that shit by having a cocktail and ending the fight. And I'm afraid of the desire and the urge and needing to tolerate that for 2 hours during the window that I normally fix myself a drink on the nights I'm drinking.

I think this goes back to what you were saying about the big why. I don't think it can be all about improving my physical health. Yes, there are benefits there, but it's like, what's the point of doing this work? What's the point of having a peaceful relationship with alcohol? Or what's the point of having more authority over my urges? Why am I practicing these skills? Who do I want to become? So it's moving towards something that I think Because anything we do, anytime we grow, anytime we build a muscle, it's going to be uncomfortable at first. That's normal. But if it feels like, I'm just, okay, so I get to be healthier. I had a client once say, when I was working with her on her compelling reasons, I had her say, I just want to be the captain of my own soul. I was like, yeah.

What are the compelling reasons?

So the compelling reasons are like, can you write down? Can you look at different aspects of your life, whether it's your health or your emotional well-being or your relationships. Maybe it's your career or your goals or your faith or money, time, productivity, to look at all of these areas of your life and start to ask yourself, why would it be worth it for me to change my relationship with alcohol? How would these areas of my life benefit? And I think it's going a little bit beyond, I don't know. I mean, my liver would get a break, and maybe I wouldn't wake up regretful.

My hot flashes wouldn't be so bad. I love the captain of the soul. That really spoke to me because I am somebody who is uber intentional and uber in control, and I've done so much work on myself as a leader, and as a mom, and as a wife, and as a human, and improving my relationship with myself. And I feel like the one area where I have this friction between old and new is this conflict I feel around whether or not I'm going to have a cocktail. And you have been so profoundly helpful because I have realized a couple of very liberating things. And I realize I'm about to say something very controversial, particularly for those of you who are sober. But I really profoundly believe I do not have an issue with alcohol after talking with you. I really do. I believe I have a major issue with the desire that's driven by a boundary between work and relaxing and turning my brain off, and the desire to join in and belong with others in moments of celebration, and being able to do a change and neuro pathway and habit exercise, where I examine this lovingly through these deeper desires.

They're all tied up with alcohol for some dumb reason. I think it would give me more of a sense that I'm driving the ship in all areas of my life, because this is the one where I feel like, Why can't I? What the fuck is this about? And I've been focused on the alcohol and the black or white, not the much richer and deeper opportunity of knowing myself in the way that you are helping people around the world who come to you and work with you around their urges and their relationship to their desires and alcohol, specifically. A lot of parents writing in about college-age kids and binge drinking and 20-somethings that are also drinking too much. Do you have any scripts or lead in sentences to even broach this topic? Because I feel like most of us don't know how to even bring it up.

Yeah, I think ideally it starts young. Ideally, you're having these conversations very early on with kids in a pragmatic, not in a scare tactic way. So we know that things like dare, I'm going to scare you into this is what alcohol and drugs do to your brain. Actually, kids use more drugs after seeing that stuff. It's not helpful. Kids see right through adults when they're all or nothing about things. So having these nuanced conversations of like, you're going to be around friends who are drinking really heavy. What do you think about that? What's been your experience? What are some of the worries you might have about that? And talking about the very practical risks that are not necessarily liver failure addiction, which are not going to be resonant for a 19-year-old, but getting into a situation that doesn't feel safe, getting into a sexually vulnerable position with someone, doing something that you don't want to do, missing class the next day. So talking about relevant, personalized issues that may come up for that kid. And then importantly, making the your child feel safe talking to you. You want them to feel comfortable coming to you about small things so that they'll come to you about big things.

And so you can share all of this in a way that doesn't feel judgmental, doesn't feel accusatory, really opens the door to ongoing conversations instead of making someone feel like they're being blamed or judged by their parents.

So for somebody that's never even broached this, and alcohol is in the family, this is a thing that's really triggering for all of us, is there a way to break down the conversation just so that the person listening can take from us or take from this conversation, All right, I'm going to express my feelings. Then I'm going to ask them about theirs, because most people get really defensive when you talk about this, and then that just shuts down the conversation. Totally.

Well, first of all, it is not too late. You have not failed. None of us are perfect in this. These are hard conversations, and we haven't learned how to do it. So it is never too late. It doesn't matter how many times you've ignored it or We've had an unproductive conversation. I think in that moment, probably the most important things you can communicate are, I love you. I'm worried about you. I'm here for you. I know that treatment works. This is how I can support you. So like many things, you're talking about yourself. You're talking about your care and concern. You're rooting everything and how much you love this person, and you're offering to be a partner in helping them find support and treatment. And it may not happen that day. It usually doesn't. So often the journey to recovery is a circuitous journey of a thousand small steps. It's very rarely that dramatic leap we see on TV. And so to not give up hope and to know that those small moments of kindness and support actually are progress and are part of the person's journey to ultimately getting well.

If you're the one that really just wants to cut back.

So if you're listening and you want to cut back on alcohol use, I think first, figure out your why.

How do you help them figure out their why as it relates to their relationship with alcohol?

Yeah, I think understanding first how alcohol fits in your life. And so People can do this at home by just keeping a drinking diary. So even just jotting down on your phone or in a notebook when you want to have a drink, what activities you associate with drinking, when you do have a drink, how many drinks you have over what time periods. It's like keeping a food journal where it actually just makes you more mindful of like, oh, I'm triggered to want to snack on this thing because I'm feeling really upset about this fight I just had. You can identify that with alcohol, too. You mentioned this earlier. I'm really stressed out at the end of the day. And so I come home and want to reach for a glass of wine. Understanding how alcohol fits in your life is an important first step. And then figuring out what are the goals you're working on right now, and that could change over time. But again, if your goal is something related to fitness or wellness or health, you may find, after learning more about alcohol and the role it plays in your life, that actually you want to change how much you're drinking.

And so then you have your why. My why is I'm training for a marathon, and I found that when I drink, I have a hard time waking up and going for my long runs. And so I'm only going to drink on this day, and I'm going to keep it to this amount. So it's very specific. And that's important for behavior change. If you make this broad general goal, if I'm never going to drink again because alcohol's bad, you're probably not going to do it because that's hard and it doesn't really relate to you as a human. So as much as you can make it specific, measurable, time-bound, so it's like the next three weeks, I'm going to try this, and then I'm going to reassess. That makes it much easier to actually make change and stick to it over time.

Well, it's great advice because I feel like so many of us have had that experience where you go to a big wedding and you're like, That's it. I'm never drinking again. I I can't do this to myself. And three days later, you're going out for somebody's engagement, and now you're like, She just have a glass of wine, and you're back in it. And so I think getting very clear about what are your goals. And I'm willing to bet if you write down your goals that you're going to see that alcohol is not helping any of them.

Exactly. And there's lots of tips out there, but you want to make it as easy as possible for yourself. So if your goal is to cut back on drinking, you don't want to have a week where you're with going out to happy hour with people. You want to really set yourself up for success. So organize your social activities around non-drinking activities. Come up with a plan if you're going to be in a situation where you would normally drink, that you're going to have a glass of club soda in your hand the minute you walk in the door. You're going to have a friend who knows that you're working on this who's going to be your partner. Setting those intentions and those ideas and tools and tricks ahead of time will make it way easier for you to ultimately reach that goal of cutting back.

If you don't feel supported by your family or your partner or friends, what advice have for people to navigate that?

Great question. I think first letting people know about your intentions. So sharing what your goal is is really important because people can't support you if they don't know. And if you've always drank a certain way with your partner or friends, and all of a sudden you're not, they're going to be like, What's going on? Whereas if you say to them, Hey, guys, I know you love me and support eat me. I want to share with you that my new goal is to not drink more than one drink a day or only drink on Friday and no more than two drinks or not drink at all. And this is my why. I'm doing because I'm worried about myself, or I'm doing this because it feels counterproductive to my health, and I really want your support, and this is how you can support me. So then you're really framing it as they get to be a partner with you. You're not criticizing their drinking because often people feel then like, Oh, I'm a little self-conscious. This person is going to be judging me or they think I'm bad. You're just asking for their help. And so maybe that looks like instead of meeting for drinks, you meet to go to yoga class, or you meet to go for a run, or you let the person know why you're going to be ordering a soda water instead of a drink.

And so you can be really concrete be both for yourself and what those tools look like, but also for the people in your life to signal to them how they can help support you. And sometimes people can't do that. And that happens whenever we make any big change. People may have experienced that if they decided to have a weight loss journey or change in your life in some way, that there are people that really fit in our lives for certain points and that can't journey with you through that transformation. And that's sad. But if you find that despite those conversations, someone is actually destructive to the change that you want to make and not supportive, then that may be a broader question about the role of that relationship in your life.

Hey, it's Mel. Thank you so much for being here. If you enjoyed that video, by God, please subscribe because I don't want you to miss a thing. Thank you so much for being here. We've got so much amazing stuff coming. Thank you so much for sending this stuff to your friends and your family. I love you. We create these videos for you, so make sure you subscribe.