Before we jump into the seven questions that we have for you, I wanted to just ask you so that we are all starting on the same playing field. What is the definition of happiness?

Do you want me to answer that now? Yeah. Okay. I define happiness as the joy you feel moving towards your potential. So it's both an emotion that is is directional. It got a valence to it. It's positive, but that it doesn't stop. It's not complacent. It actually leads to seeing more of what we're capable of in terms of our potential as an athlete or as a musician or a parent or a poet.

So do we get it wrong when we're just in our day-to-day life saying to ourselves, I don't feel happy? Are we talking about happiness wrong? Is that part of the problem?

I think that could be, because I think we use happy in so many different ways. I'm not happy with this hotel room, or I'm not happy within this moment. What we're looking for is not that moment of happiness, because it's so fleeting. If you're trying to hold onto that, it just slips through our fingers almost as soon as we define it. What we're looking for is more of an emotional trajectory within someone's life, that even when someone is suffering, they can actually experience joy in the midst of that. The reason why I love that we've conflated the ideas of happiness and joy together is that if happiness was based on the pleasure model, pleasure is fleeting. It's so short-lived. We only have it when things are good. But joy is something we can experience even when life is not good, in the midst of childbirth. It's not high levels of pleasure all the time. But moments of joy can correspond even with the highest amounts of fear and pain we can experience as human beings. I love that I think what we need is redefinition of what we mean when we talk about happiness. They're stuck in a single moment.

But what we're looking for is what's the trajectory in that moment? That even if I'm experiencing pain, whether it be back pain or fatigue or whatever it is that someone is experiencing, that we want them to actually experience joy in the midst of that so that we can make the negative experiences, those troughs, shorter.

So maybe I should ask you, what the heck is joy? Because as you're talking about childbirth, I'm like, Sean, I don't know what epidural they had in your wife, but I did not experience a whole lot of joy until the crown was over and the kid was out and I was done with it, and they handed me the ice pack to put in my underwear. So when you talk about joy, what do you mean?

Well, even in those moments, once we've had the baby, it's not suddenly that everything's perfect again. Now they're waking us up, right? And now we're taking care this little thing that we have no idea how to take care of, at least we didn't. And we're already exhausted at that point, right? And then the doctors leave the room. What do we do at this moment? I think that we're constantly looking for that moment where everything is great, that there's no stress the race is finished, what we find is it never actually happens for people because as soon as they finish the race, they're thinking about what they need to do when they get home. Or as soon as they get that promotion, they're immediately thinking about, What am I going to do now that I have this promotion? And how do I get this person in my team to become more positive. The joy that we're experiencing is that feeling like that we're not stagnant. There is that Maslow's hierarchy of needs, which I haven't really studied very much, but I know it goes from the basic needs all the way up to self-actualization through stages of, I think it's self-confidence and self-esteem.

What we find is that happiness doesn't occur at only one of those moments. That we find, and you've seen this as well, that in our travels, we go to places that are quite impoverished, where we'd assume that given what the people that are there have or their lack of options, that they would be miserable all the time. We don't find that. We find happiness in these surprising places where you feel joy and optimism, even in places where I might feel imprisoned. That it's not where you are on the Maslow's hierarchy of needs that determines your happiness. It's whether or not you feel like you're moving up on it, that there's growth. And I think that the moments in my career where even if you've written a book, I thought, as you know, if you write a book, I thought I was done. That was the mountaintop experience. I did it. That was my baby. It was much less painful than what my wife turned through. But I felt like, Oh, I did it. And then you realize, wait, I want people to read this. And what if people think I'm a fraud? And how do I...

Oh, maybe I need to write another book, or I want to get it on my best seller list, or how how do I turn this into changing more people's lives? You realize it's not even done. You've actually only started when the book came out. And there's this sense of futility that can occur within those moments. That moment I thought would create greater levels of happiness in my life, don't. But if we're able to experience joy as we move through those pursuit of goals, that's the only place I think that anyone finds it. That's why I think people can be very happy where They have very lower means, but they suddenly get some extra money, or they work really hard for something, and they're able to buy their kid a present or braces, or that you write a book, and it doesn't guarantee levels of happiness, but then someone tells you something about how it impacted their life. And even though you might have heard it a hundred times, you needed to hear it again, to remember that this was important, or that you're doing something meaningful in this world. So I think that that's what it is, is that it's that constant search of meaning that allows else is to feel like what we're doing on our daily actions is moving us up towards self-actualization, which I don't know what Maslow meant when he said that, but to me, it means my highest potential as Sean, as a dad, as a husband, as a speaker, as a terrible tennis player.

I honestly am a little confused about the difference between happiness and joy, and I have a feeling that our first question from Tina is going to open the door to you really landing this plane and this distinction for us. So let's roll that clip from Tina.

Hi, Mel.

I want to know how to change from thinking that you can only achieve happiness depending on external things. If I had enough money, if I had a job, if I had a partner, to finding it within you. Sean?

I love that question. The reason I love it is that the original way the psychology looked at happiness was just a pleasure or pain model. That all we're doing as human beings is responding to things that feel good in that moment or things that hurt, and we run away from those. And then they decided pleasure must be what happiness is because we're running towards that all the time. To me, I don't think that there should be a difference between happiness and joy. I want there to be confusion because I want the two to be conflated. I think we need to help redefine happiness for the world, that happiness is the joy you feel moving towards your potential. So I want people to have a disruption in that model because of exactly what was asked in that question. It was a great question because I think that we assume that the external world is a good predictor of people's levels of happiness. That's why when parents say they want the best for their kids, they want their kids to be happy, they assume that means in a good school or the top of their team, or they mean something in their head, that that determines success, and that's going to guarantee happiness, because they've checked off some externals.

But when you look at the research, as you know, the external world is a terrible predictor of happiness. We find happiness in all these surprising places, and we find unhappiness in places where people have everything. I cut my teeth on this research when I was at Harvard, and when I got in, I had never been there. I had only seen it in the movies. I applied it on a dare. I was a volunteer firefighter. I wasn't like a valedictorian or anything. And I was so happy that I got in. And I assumed that everyone who got into a place and an environment, with opulence and opportunity would be guaranteed happiness. What we found is that 80 % of them go through work debilitating depression once they get there. Another 10 %, the last time this was public, contemplated taking their lives. And then when I traveled to... And those are statistics, but every one of them was- Are you talking about just Harvard? Just Harvard in that moment.

And you were one of them.

I was one of them. And we can get to that, too. I went through depression myself, actually, after I graduated, when my job was to make sure that the first year students who went from being top one % of their school now realize that half of the students are now below average, how we could stop them from going through depression or anxiety. But they were in this incredible place. They had a success. It should have guaranteed levels of happiness. The worldly and external factor should have guaranteed happiness, and it didn't. When I traveled to 50 countries doing this research, I learned very quickly that the story that I just described had nothing to do with Harvard. It's how the brain processes the world. That if we think our happiness is based upon the externals, the problem is that every time your brain has a success, it changes the goalpost of what success looks like. And as soon as that occurs, then what should have created great levels of happiness didn't. So you get a degree, don't get excited yet. You don't have a job. If you get a job, don't get excited yet. You have to get through inflation or you got to get that promotion.

How do you change this? I think we all... At some point, you wake up and recognize, I've been living this. I'll be happy when. I'll be happy when I get the house. I'll be happy when I finally have a boyfriend or a girlfriend or a partner. I'll be happy when I lose a pound. I'll be happy when this. And that model doesn't work. And what Tina is asking is, how the hell do I change my mindset? How do I stop trying to find it outside of me? I don't even know how to begin to find inside of me. In fact, you mentioned that you were depressed, and I was reading an article where you were interviewed, and you said that you were writing in a journal during this period, and the first entry you wrote was, I don't remember being happy, and I don't think I'll ever be happy again. And now you're like the world's guru of happiness. So in that moment, though, Sean, you had an experience that I think everybody has at some point. I'm not happy, and I don't think I'll ever be happy again. And so what's the first thing that you would want somebody to know if that's where you are right now?

I think the very first thing I'd want is actually the recognition, because I wish I had known that earlier, that whole thing we're talking about. I think you're right. I think we all have that moment where you realize, I thought I'd be happy when, and it didn't work. But then if you ask somebody why they're not happy, they'll tell you about one of their externals. I'm not happy right now because I don't have a boyfriend. I'm not happy right now because I've got this guy at work. I'm not happy right now because I don't have enough money. So I think the very first step might be acknowledging it, that the human brain is designed to foil any attempt that success will guarantee happiness, because every time you hit one of those targets, we change what we think would create happiness. I think the best example of that is actually the pandemic, because I think at the beginning of it, in the middle of it, everyone thought, Think how happy we're going to be when the pandemic wanes. That's true. And the pandemic is waning, and we don't have that guaranteed levels of happiness. And what we forgot was there wasn't 100% levels of happiness before the pandemic.

So I think the first is a recognition that this isn't working. From there, I think that it requires a mindset shift and a behavioral shift. In that article, and in the work that I do, I research what we can do to create happiness when the world doesn't look like it should. And I think one important And the caveat to that is that while I'm talking about what we can do internally, that doesn't negate the need for external changes. We have systemic reasons while there's inequality, discrimination, racism that we should fight. Absolutely. I believe what gives us the power to fight that is the internal changes. And that everyone needs to do it, not just the people seeking happiness, right? The people who are being discriminatory need to do it, too.

So let's start with the mindset. What is one step, one simple step, that somebody who is Sitting alone, like Sean, unhappy Sean, back in the mid-2010s, writing, I don't remember being happy, and I don't think I'll ever be happy again. How the hell do you change your mindset? Because if you keep saying that to yourself, you're not going to be able to access happiness within.

Right. Well, I think there's something unique in that moment because I was attempting to do something about it because I'm trying to write in a journal to be happier. I'm just like, I don't think this is going to work, which we know from research, that's not a great mentality. You can predict the course of treatment based on whether or not you believe the doctor can heal you. So that was not a specialization It's the best place to start.

Okay, so, Sean, are you telling us that what you're about to tell us to do is going to work, and we should believe in our ability to change our mindset and to take actions and to access happiness?

Yes, I would actually I would wholeheartedly say that. Not only because I've experienced myself, but then we've researched it ever since. I mean, what I've learned in this research is that depression was not the end of the story at all. And that even in the midst of a broken world, in fact, only in the midst of a broken world, have we ever been able to create happiness. So the question is, how do we do so? I think the starting point is realizing not only that our strategy wasn't working, but acknowledging that there are multiple realities in this moment. And one of them is, I don't have a boyfriend or girlfriend, or I don't have this money, or I don't have this job that I want, or I'm frustrated about whatever it is. I think when you acknowledge that that's true, you could say that's one reality, but there's also some other realities as well. Last week, I went to the hospital because I was having chest pain.

You were?

Yeah. I was in the ER. I missed my very first talk in two decades. And I realized in that moment when they trip you of everything. And you know the doctor's going to knock on the door. When the doctor knocked on the door, I was like, this could change my life. It didn't. I was completely fine. But in that moment, my whole life changed. My whole life could have changed, and was completely disrupted within those moments. I think when we realized that there's multiple realities in that moment. One of them is, I miss to talk. I'm not with my family. I'm in a hospital I don't want to be in. That's true. On the other hand, I'm I'm going home today. I'm going home to two kids that I love and a wife that I love. Those are equally true, but in the same reality. And because my brain has a limited amount of resources, I need to choose, and I need to choose what I'm going to be focusing my brain on. There is so much negative in this world that I could spend the entire rest of my life focusing upon that and upon my fear, but that that doesn't serve me at all.

It's not a valuable reality for me. That in the midst of these multiple and true realities, I'm going to look at the ones that and focus on the ones that are going to allow me to fix the negative parts of my life, or that are at least going to give me the optimism, the happiness, and joy to take the next step in the next step. In depression, I just needed a step forward. I felt like I just stopped moving. So I started doing these habits, and these are the habits that we know work. These are all the things you know about as well. Gratitude, for example. I think that this would be my answer to someone sitting there and to that 26-year-old boy who is feeling this, was in those moments, I needed to scan. I need to stop scanning for all the deficits in my life, and I need to use some of those finite resources to scan the world for the things that I was grateful for. And it was hard, because my brain kept being like, yes, but what about this? What about this thing you don't have? So I had to literally train my brain, and we train it exactly like we've seen anything else with the human body, is I had to keep doing it.

I can't build a bicep if I only lift a weight once, then I'm done, right? I had to do it every day, and I had to create a pattern out of it, even when I wasn't sure it was going to work, and even when I could see no change in my life. I'd say, easily for the first two weeks, I saw no change in my life. Well, I wanted- I'm just sitting there trying to Go ahead.

You're sorry.

I'm just saying they're writing down things I'm grateful for, and my life still feels terrible. I remember breathing hurt when I was depressed because everything hurt. Everything didn't seem like it was worthwhile.

What kept you kept going?

So that's the thing. I don't get to talk about this much in any of the interviews, so I'd love to talk about this, too, because I think you're going deeper than some of the surface questions we normally get. I think that the habits are what pulled me out of depression. I write my gratitudes. I journal. I do exercise. I write a two-minute kind note almost every day. I'd say 90 plus % days since my mid-20s. I know that when I don't do those things, it's like when I don't brush my teeth, I get this film in my mouth. That's what I feel like my world looks like when I don't do those habits. Those habits are the way the building blocks for creating happiness. But the turning point for me, which I never get to talk about, the turning point for me in all this was actually not me. My job was to make sure other people didn't get depressed, so I kept trying to be there for other people. I was just supposed to be this paragon of knowing what you were supposed to do in optimism. And I kept I came deeper and deeper in depression because I knew that there is a dissonance between what I was feeling and what I was showing to the world.

The turning point for me, and what actually got me to try to do those habits, was at the bottom of the depression for me, I turned to my eight closest friends and family and told them that I was going through depression. A couple of these people were my competitors there at Harvard or my peers. I told them I was going through depression. I said, It's genetic. There's nothing you can do. My My grandmother, grandparents. It's genetic. I just wanted to tell somebody. But immediately, the groundswell of support was phenomenal. They kept calling me. They emailed me. They met up with me. One of them brought me cupcakes. It's not when I did it to get cupcakes. But as soon as I As soon as I did that, everything changed. The reason for it was actually a study I found way later in my life. It was a study by these two researchers in Virginia, and they found that if you look at a hill, you need to climb in front of you. If you look at that hill by yourself, your brain shows you a picture of a hill that looks 20 to 30 % steeper when you're alone, compared to that hill that you look at of the same height while standing next to someone who you're told is going to climb the hill with you.

So I said that in a convoluted way. When you're alone, hills actually look 20 to 30 % steeper to the visual cortex, which is amazing because I thought we have this objective view of the world, right? That's bad. This is good. This is how tall that mountain is. And what we realized was it was one of those matrix moments where I realized that the world is not objective, it's subjective. And that hill, those challenges are collapsing and expanding based upon whether or not you think you're radically alone going through this and trying to get out of this or whether you're with other people. So as soon as I did that, as soon as I opened up to other people, that was the turning point, because it was the move from happiness as a self-help idea to this recognition that happiness was not an individual sport at all. And suddenly, that hill of overcoming depression in front of me dropped by 20 to 30 %. And they opened up about things they were dealing with. None of them was depression, but it was just challenges they were experiencing. And we started creating these meaningful narratives and social bonds that made me want to do the habits because there was something worth doing the habits for.

So it was a combination of habits and social connection and a mindset shift that allowed in that moment to break from this idea that nothing matters and that there's nothing that I can do that matters, and I have to just wait for the world to change.

Well, it makes perfect sense. And it reminds me of the fact that the surgeon general just had that oped piece that went viral yesterday about the epidemic of loneliness. And in his op-ed piece in the New York Times, he talked about his own struggle with it and how the turning point was him admitting, just like you did, to his family, friends, and to a few colleagues, that he was really struggling with this. And it was there checking in on him and them sharing back that they felt disconnected from social groups and from themselves as well after the last three years. That really was the turning point. But I love that you added that research because it is true. When you are down and sad and you feel like a sad sack that nobody wants to hang out with, that's the story you tell yourself. And that story then and the emotions that feel low make you keep isolating. And And it's when you reach out that you change the behavior and you change the narrative. And then that provides a little bit of that intrinsic lift that you need, that maybe there is something I can do.

Maybe there is hope. I want to go a little bit deeper on this because you've been there, and I've been there, and lots of people listening have been there and are there right now. And so when somebody like you come in or I'm sitting here on the mic, it's so easy to be resigned and push everybody away and be like, Well, that's great for you, Sean, but you don't know what I'm going through. And I think this question, Andrew, it's actually number three. It's Sharmaine. Let's play Sharmaine's question. Because I think it's going to help us even go a little bit deeper to provide some hope, Sean, for somebody who's really feeling like, I've tried everything.

Since my teen years, I've been asking myself, Why am I here? What's my purpose? How do I create happiness within myself? I've made so much progress, yet right now I feel lost. I feel like a failure. I feel not good enough. I feel like I'm not a good girl. I feel like I'm not a good enough mom to my daughters. I feel selfish, I feel off course, and like I'm not living up to my potential. I've done the work. I know this is coming from my limiting beliefs, trauma, projections that I have taken on as truth. Yet, here I am, feeling lost, alone, and frankly stupid. I do understand the privilege I possess. I practice gratitude I know I am blessed, and I do a lot of things right. I don't think I'm depressed. I'm not completely unhappy. So what the fuck am I? I'm in some goddamn vortex of nirvana and Sean, what pops out of you?

So many things. First of all, how self-aware this person is, right? To be able, in the midst of this, to be able to identify the stages that they've been through, where they are currently, the recognition of the good, but also feeling like that they don't feel good enough, and that there's more potential. What I kept hearing in my head over and over again is, this sounds like me. This sounds so human. I think we fluctuate all the time between this, I've got things going, and then, wow, I certainly don't. If I have a really productive Monday, I get everything done and I'm super cleaning the house. Tuesday and Wednesday are terrible. I'm exhausted. I don't want to do anything. I feel like I waste every Tuesday and Wednesday whenever I have an amazing Monday. I think that that's because we swing, right? And I think what our hunger for is... If our hunger is for a mountaintop experience all the time, that we always know that we're loved, that we're always amazing, that we're always beautiful and the smartest person in the room, I think that that's an illusion, and a false desire, because I think it's an accurate reflection that we are not living up to our potential.

I think that that's true all the time. I think that I could be doing better as a dad. I could be doing better as a husband. I know that when I work really hard at being a great dad, I know I immediately look around at all the people that are doing amazing things at work, and I'm like, whoa, I'm so behind. Then when I do a ton of stuff for work or travel ever, then I'm like, oh, I should be a better dad, right? I swing back and forth between this. And I think what we need are those anchor points in the midst of it. And where those anchor points come from. You had me on the show to join you because I researched this, but I also went to the divinity school before getting into this. So what motivated my beliefs in why positive psychology mattered came from this belief that the story we tell ourselves and the lens to which we view the world changes how we act in it, and where we find our meaning, and where we find that value. And I think that those narratives, those belief systems, can answer some of those questions about How can I feel loved even when I'm not achieving my highest or my potential?

I think in the world, that's very difficult, because then we get on Instagram and we know exactly who's doing great, based upon likes, or based upon some quantification, or money can tell you who's doing great and who's not. None of those fill that void. So where those anchor points could come from? I think that they have to come from other people as well. There was a study that came out of Stanford that found that loneliness had nothing to do with actually the number of people within your life. Loneliness was simply the absence of meaning you felt in the relationships with other people and their meaningful impact upon you. That if you If you're doing anything meaningful for other people's lives, then you didn't feel social connection for the people that are around you all the time, and vice versa. So if that's the case, if meaning is what's driving our levels of happiness, then I think we actually My grandmother said it. She's like, If you want to be a friend, if you want a friend, you have to be a friend. And I was like, Okay, that's overly simplistic.

Not really, actually.

That's not working out for me. I can't be the girlfriend, right? So In that moment, I didn't understand. Now I get it. What we're finding is that when people are experiencing that fluctuation back and forth, I think we're searching for meaning. People search it in different ways. Religion, and philosophy, and psychology. I think that a lot of the things that we search for don't work out for us, which is why we get to the point where she's talking about where we feel this vortex of, I've got it, I don't have it. Got it, I don't have it. Because we're reaching on to things oftentimes, or illusory, while we're grabbing on to things that are true. My mentor, Talbind Shahar, said that, You're never as great as you think you are, and you're never as bad as you think you are. What I loved about that is that meant that there was a middle path in the midst of it. That Sometimes when I think I'm a great speaker or whatever it is, then I get humbled very quickly by anything. Or if I think that I'm not doing great, then occasionally I'll get an email and it's like, Hey, this was really important to me.

That middle path was actually the one that I wanted to be in. It's this recognition and being okay with, I am not at my full potential, but that's okay. The reason that's okay is because I'm having a meaningful impact upon other people. That The one that I mentioned of writing a two-minute pause of email, praising or thanking someone else, I found that one to be probably the most helpful of any of the things I've research because you can take someone in a socially isolated state with high levels of introversion, and if every day they scan for one new person to write a two-minute pause of email to, they stop on day eight unless we pay them $15. On day eight, that's when they realize fully that they're not a crazy extrovert with all these friends that they could write to. They're like, I wrote to everyone my favorites list in my mom twice. Everyone. And then they scan, and they remember, who's that mentor who got me into this job? Or who's that high school teacher that seemed to have some answer to some of those questions that that person was just asking? Or what about my kid's first-grade teacher who I just formed my son's life, but I don't talk to them anymore because my kid's in second grade?

And you start to see all these people that are in our lives that we're not connecting with. And a two-minute email thanking them or praising them or saying, I've seen how you've been going through breast cancer, and it inspires me that you're able to find happiness in low health when... I struggled to find happiness when I seemed to have higher health. That those moments, that just brief, meaningful act using technology for two minutes, we found that if you do it for 21 days in a row, your social connection score rises up to the top 15% of people worldwide. That's including experts. What we found was that you were lighting up these of meaningful connections on your mental map of social connection. And that, I think if you look at the philosophers, I think if you look at religion, I think if you look at psychology, they keep breaking down this idea that you can achieve happiness alone, that you could just figure out your thoughts enough, and then you did it. You could just maintain your happiness. That happiness and meaning only come from this interplay with the ecosystem with others around us.

I love that. Go ahead. If you're about to talk another study.

Go for it. I just could tell one quick study. It's a beautiful one. It's not about humans. You probably heard this one. This was also in the New York Times as well. There was a study where they found all these fireflies. Fireflies everywhere light up individually and randomly in the dark, and that's how they attract a maid. Their success rate per night per bug is 3%, which I'm told is good. But these researchers found on opposite sides of the globe, these two species, one in Southeast Indonesia and one in the There's these smoky mountains of Tennessee that you can take busses out to go see. These fireflies have these neurotransmitters that allow them to all light up and all go dark at the same time, which is beautiful, but not that smart because we live in a survival of the fittest world. We're told to be the fastest, smartest, brightest light shining, otherwise you'll never be successful. At MIT, they studied these fireflies, and they realized, we just understand how systems work. That when they lit up together seemingly with their competition, The success rate doesn't drop. The success rate goes from 3% to 82% per bug.

It's not like one bug does better. The whole system was doing orders the magnitude better than we thought was possible because as they lit up together, their light became brighter. It was attracting more and more potential mates than a single light would have been able to do and create these virtuous cycles. And we kept seeing the same thing when we looked at humans. We found that the greatest predictor of long term levels of happiness, as you know, one of the greatest predictors is social connection. It's the breadth, depth, the meaning in your social relationships. So it's not something you could figure out in your head, and then you did it, and then you can hold happiness forever. It's about finding a way of lighting up with other people and getting them to light up as well.

So, Sean, what I love about what you just said, especially in response to that question from Charmaine, is that I was listening to her just tick off one negative, nasty critical thought after another. I could feel like this heaviness. And then all of a sudden it occurred to me, wait a minute. I bet happiness is broken into two things. It is from the neck up, and it's the things that you tell yourself. But It is also, and probably way more important, that you think about the things that you're doing from the neck down. And that's where these habits come in, that if it's all doom and gloom from the neck up, you're not going to feel any motivation, hope, your interest in lighting up with everybody else. But if you can force yourself to start ticking off these simple habits that you recommend, that you practice, that you've researched, and you just highlighted the one of taking and making a two-minute note, just a two-minute note every single day for 21 days, it will have an impact in how you feel, which, of course, will start to shift all that shit you've been saying to yourself, which probably is stuff that you heard your parents say to themselves.

And so what I love about your research is that you're also making it actionable, because I think that's part of the problem, that when we feel shitty and we say shitty things to ourselves, we don't take the actions that actually change it.

Yeah. I heard one time I was on a plane and the woman sitting, I don't know, kiddy corner behind me in the back, she said she was talking to somebody else loudly that she had just met about all I have these psychological understandings about herself. Like, literally a litany of all the psychological problems that she had. I realized, and she said she had been going to therapy for years, she had this incredible knowledge about herself and understanding where she was. At no point did she ever mention anything she was doing about it. She was talking to a stranger about it, which was more trauma dumping than actually trying to move forward. But I think there's this moment where I really thought that if I read enough books, I'd find happiness. I thought that if I read enough books, I'd be smart, and then people would like me. That was completely not true. I think that we take these paths, and I love what you're saying there, is that There's this interplay between the beliefs and the actions that we do. You see the same thing with religion, between this faith and works. It's the things you believe, but if you say you believe those, but you're not doing any of those, I'm not sure you actually believe these things.

That there's got to be a connection between those. And what I would say is, in addition to that, is don't try to do it alone. I think that we treat happiness like self-help. I know our books are in self-help sections sometimes. But as soon as we do this on our own, without that friend, without that mentor, without those people that we're doing meaningful acts for, then we get frustrated very quickly and think we're doing something wrong. And what's wrong is actually the formula. Like, happiness never works out if it's an individual pursuit. And that's I love that. One of those other mindset shifts I think was crucial to find that there wasn't... You can't do enough yoga to force yourself into happiness unless that yoga caused you to be more peaceful with that interaction with your mother-in-law.

That's like happiness applied. In your new book, you've got seven questions that you recommend that people ask themselves. Let's go through those seven questions. And when you ask these questions, what do these questions do for you?

Well, I've been working on helping people change for a long time, and I realized the more effective I am, the simpler I get. If I make it really simple. And I worked with B. J. Fogg. Do you know B. J?

Hold on one second. I need to hug my son because I'm leaving today for two weeks, and I'm not going to see him. That will make you happy. I'm so happy. Oh my God, I love you. I love you. I love you. I love you. Have an awesome scrimmage. Say hi to Dr. Amen and everybody on the Internet. Hi.

Nice to see you.

I'll talk to you later.

I will. Call me.

Okay.

Bye, dude. Thank you for that. Okay. So the seven questions, you were talking about B. J. Fogg. Do you know B. J. Fogg? I don't know B. J. Fogg personally, but I'm aware of the work and the research, yes.

Oh, you would love him because so much of what you teach is a tiny habit. It's super simple, and that's why it's so effective. And so I worked with him for six months to create a tiny habit for brain health. And ultimately, it's these seven questions. Number one, am I doing something today that makes me uniquely happy based on my brain type? Two, is this good for my brain or bad for it? That's the mother tiny habit. You want to be happy, you got to get a healthier brain.

So you asked the second one, throughout the day, is this good for my brain? Turning on this, flipping through social media for the next 45, is this actually good for my brain? Obviously not. Put the phone down. Okay.

Right. Or what you're going to go drink or what you're going to eat or what you're going to smoke or the interaction you're going to have with your spouse. Is this good for my brain or bad for it? You just have to know the list. Three, am I supplementing my unique brain every day? Because based on your brain type, there are different supplements for the persistent person versus the cautious person. Four, do I choose food I love? It loves me back. Five, is it true? Whatever thought pops up in your head, is it true? So really become good at just questioning the nonsense, the noise that goes through your head. And one of my favorite questions, this is a sub-question of five, what went well today? I put myself to bed every night with, I say a prayer, and then I go, What went well today? And I start at the beginning of the day, and I go, usually I'm asleep by lunchtime, but I love that exercise because it's like a treasure hunt every day. Because you and I are both busy, and so great things happen, and we often gloss over them, where I'm like, Oh, my God, that was so cool.

My daughter is going to move closer to me, which makes me happy.

Now I'm triggered because I'm in Vermont here sitting here thinking, I'm never going to see my family again.

Which is a lie. Which is a lie. So you and I can talk about that. You'll see them anytime you want to see them, right? And children tend to follow, in my experience. But she actually found the bear I bought her the day she was born, and the music box still worked. And she sent me the picture, and it made me teary. But then I'm busy. I didn't think about it again. But boy, did I think about it, putting myself to sleep because it sets up your dreams to be more positive. And then six is, am I reinforcing behaviors I like in others today or behaviors I dislike by what I pay attention to? And seven is, does it fit? Does my behavior fit the values, purpose, and goals I have for my life? Because you have to tell your brain what you want, or it'll give you what society wants, which is consuming junk food and watching trash on social media.

Well, what I love about all these questions is that the first one that was, Am I doing something for myself that makes me uniquely happy? And the one about what went well today are things that begin and end your day. And the rest of them help you re-anchor to the power inside you to align what you're doing throughout the day so that you are happier, more supported, and more aligned with your values. So these are tools you can use all day long these questions and keep coming back to them to help you stay present, correct?

Correct. And to help you moving toward joy. And I actually start the book with the idea that happiness is not frivolous. That it's a moral obligation because of how you impact other people. If you've ever been raised by an unhappy parent or married to an unhappy spouse, I can guarantee you those people will say, yes, happiness. This is an ethical issue. And so people think of it as flat, and this isn't flaw. I think Buddhist said, happiness is the way. It's the purpose in life. And hedonism is actually the enemy of happiness, because hedonism wears out your pleasure centers in your brain. And I've been blessed to see some really amazing stars. And you just saw how Fame trashed their brain. I'm in Justin Bieber's docuseries season, and he's just a perfect example of a talented kid who Fame narrowly cost him his life. So it's not hedonism we're after. And one of my favorite techniques I think you'll like is looking for the micro moments of happiness. What's the smallest thing that happened today? That made the biggest difference for you? And I love- You just quit it, honestly, the hug with my son.

Because I'm going on- And those things happen a lot, but people don't pay attention to them. And so you hug them an extra second longer And you're getting dopamine and oxytocin and serotonin. I talk about the chemicals of happiness as well.

And that brings me to our very first question about happiness from a listener named Bandria. Hey Mel, it's Andrea. Can you talk about happiness? I can't think of a time that I have felt true happiness. I'm just living, I guess. I feel that something is missing, and I believe it's happiness. Andrea, I love the way you frame that question. And for you listening, I'm going to put that question right back to you. Can you think of a time that you felt true happiness? Or are you, like most people, that you feel like something is missing from your life and you can't quite put your finger on it? When I hear Andrea's question, I can totally relate to it because I know I felt the way that she's feeling. And one of the mistakes that I was making when I felt like something was missing is I, of course, went on the search. I got to find happiness. And here's the first piece of research that I want to talk about. Research says that happiness or that feeling that we're seeking of happiness, it's often fleeting because we are searching for happiness in wrong places. In fact, researchers at Rutgers and the University of Toronto found that people who pursue happiness, you're chasing it, you're looking for it outside yourself.

You often feel like you don't have enough time in the day. This paradoxically makes you feel unhappy. Because when you feel like you don't have enough time in the day because you're constantly chasing all these things outside of you, you start to feel like you're not in control of your life. And I think that's what Andrea is talking about, that we're all chasing down found some version of happiness that we think we're supposed to be chasing, right? That society has marketed some version of life to us. And that's why you probably are familiar with that phrase, I'll be happy when. We all succumb to that thinking. I'll be happy when I lose the weight, I fall in love, I land that dream job, I pay off my bills, I get into my dream school, I find the perfect apartment. And there's a We have multiple problems with thinking like this. First of all, if you think that you'll be happier when you achieve something, what always happens is when you achieve it, you're not as happy as you thought you would be. And then all of a sudden, because you don't have this big goal in front of you anymore, your happiness plummets.

And so the research is very, very clear that these big events that we're chasing, that we think are going to give us a boost of happiness, that happiness doesn't last. And there's a second reason why this thinking that you'll be happy at some point in the future, why this is really problematic. It's because you are anchoring your happiness on something that hasn't happened yet. That means your happiness is something you have to earn. Your happiness is something that's outside of you. And that's not what happiness is at all. Happiness is always within your control. Happiness is something that you want to cultivate in your life, where you are, right now. And the good news is, you don't have to wait to be happy when. You can learn to be happier now. So let me explain, based on the research, how happiness works when it comes to you individually. So there's this formula that's supported by the science that says, you have 100% capacity for happiness. That's what you got. Your cup can be full and runneth over. 100%, Baby, happiness is for you. 50% of that capacity is genetics. That's your default. You might be somebody that has 50% genetics that are preset to being very sunny and bubbly and happy.

Or 50% of your genetics might be like, you're grumpy. That's okay, because you still have the other 50% to play with. 10% of the rest is based on the circumstances that you're facing right now. And 40% of happiness, period, in your life right now is completely under your control. And that's what we're going to focus on, because that's awesome. No matter what family you were born into, no matter what you're facing right now in your life, 40% of your capacity for happiness right now, completely in your control. And so before we go forward, I want to make sure that as we're talking, that we're in complete agreement about what the word happiness means. Because when you and I use the word happy or happiness, we might be saying totally different things. There's a huge spectrum when people use this word. Researchers even talk about the fact that happiness is all over the map. Some people, when they say happiness, they mean laughing and having a good time. Other people mean fulfillment or thriving or kicking ass in life. And so you and I are going to have a conversation right now about what you mean when you say happiness.

Where are you on this spectrum between laughter and having a great time to feeling completely fulfilled and thriving in life. And so in order for you and I to get on the same page, I'm going to bring a metaphor in. You know Mel Robbins. She loves her metaphors. She loves her visual explanations for these big heady concepts. And thankfully, I got a great one for happiness. So whenever you hear the word happiness, I want you to think about an ocean. There are waves in an ocean, and that's one spectrum of happiness. And waves come and they go. And having fun in the waves requires you to jump in the waves, to get into the ocean, to decide that you're going to go have fun. But then if you think about the ocean, there are days that there's no waves at all. It's perfectly still. And the ocean itself and your ability to stand in that ocean, to float and to swim, that's a deeper form of happiness. Or what about the days where the ocean is stormy and you wouldn't dare go in. But on those days that you're on the beach, aren't you so present to the wind, to the salt, to the waves crashing on the beach?

That's what I want you to think about. That huge range of how an ocean shows up. I love this metaphor of an ocean for happiness, the waves being fun and the still ocean being your ability to just experience happiness and you being present even on the stormiest days to the little details. I love this range because it ties right back to all of the research, but it gives us a visual. Can you give us more advice on exactly how we can implement this wisdom?

Well, by doing a lot of the things that science tells us makes us stronger. So for example, not being reactive when we can help it, when we can take a moment to stop and take a breath when we're feeling challenged. So when we're feeling anxious or angry or scared to just stop and be with it for a moment and say to ourselves, Okay, what's happening now? What's causing it? What is my wisest way to deal with this challenge right now? So just stopping, taking a little mini time out, taking a breath is the first step. And then Using what I call our wise mind to say, Okay, what has worked well in the past? What hasn't worked well? So you get the email that makes you angry and you want to fire off an angry email in response, and you stop up, you take a breath and you say, Okay, what would be the wisest way to deal with this email that I want to get so mad about? Sometimes I'm going to sleep on this. I'm going to wait till tomorrow morning and see how it looks to me tomorrow morning. Now, sometimes we don't have that time to step back, but most of the time we do.

Even if our partner says something that makes us furious, can we not rise to the bait But can we stop and take a breath and say, I'm just going to take a moment here to hear what you said and think about how I can respond to you?

I wish we would have had this conversation two days ago. No, I'm not kidding, because there's a text that I sent that I sent in the heat of an anxiety wave. And now I am sitting here two days later. It's not been responded to by the other person. And I, of course, am managing the wave of, Oh, my God, I wish I hadn't had sent that. How do I deal with this moment right now when I feel this regret that I didn't put myself in pause?

Okay. The first thing is you don't beat yourself up about it. Too late. You say, Okay, what am I going to learn from this? So when we feel like we've made a mistake, failure is fine. The question And the point is, how do we learn from it? And I've done this, believe me, where I've fired off an angry response, and then I go, Oh, no. But then, Okay, how am I going to learn from it? So the point is, don't beat yourself up. Step away from that when you can and say, okay, what am I going to learn here? And I have to learn it over and over again. It's not like it's one undone.

Well, I'll tell you, the fact that you're a Zen master and you are still struggling with this, I literally am like, why on Earth would you become a Zen master if you still have to struggle with the same stuff that we all do?

Because part of what I teach is we all struggle with this. And part of the wisdom of Zen is to say there is no final place. There's actually a saying in Zen, there is nothing to attain. And what we mean by that is there's no final place where we've got it all figured out. And that that's so important to know. Otherwise, Otherwise, we tend to follow people who tell us they have got it all figured out. Nobody's like that. There's nobody on the planet who alone can fix it.

Well, I want to talk a little bit about money. What did this 86-year What does a long study at Harvard tell you about the role that money plays when it comes to happiness in your life?

It's complicated. So money matters. Money matters. What we find when we do research on this is that having our basic needs met is vital. So food security. Think of the billions of people who are food insecure, people who don't know where they're going to sleep tonight, people who don't know if they can educate their children, if they can pay for their medication. Having those basic financial needs met is essential. So there have been estimates in the research of, you need to make at least $75,000 a year in the US Yes, but whatever the amount is, and it's arbitrary, it's really, can I get my basic needs met? And until that happens, we are significantly less happy. But then If I make $75 million a year, that's not going to make me a whole lot happier than having my basic financial needs met. That's important because if I set out to make myself happy by trying to make a lot of money, it's a fool's errand. It's not going to happen.

It's hard, though, to really accept that that's true. I've been in situations in my life both when I was at the beginning of my career as a public defender, not making money, not able to make the ends meet. I've been in a situation in my marriage where we couldn't pay our bills. We were just absurdly in debt, and there were liens on the house. And there is a level of acute and chronic stress and anxiety that you feel when you cannot buy groceries or pay your rent. Absolutely. When you're in that situation, I hear what you're saying, which is until you can get your basic needs met, accessing a deeper level of happiness is going to be really difficult because you're not thriving. You have legitimate stress and problems that are overtaking your body and your mind. And that's a very, very real thing. So money becomes a really important tool to be able to relieve stress and solve some of your problems. But if I'm listening closely, you're saying it's not the point of your life. And too many of us fall into this trap where we believe Because of what we see on social media or what is celebrated in our culture, the new cars, the mansions, the jets, all of it, that you start to think that it's the point of your life.

Yes. And so we should think about money as a tool, not the point.

Exactly. To think, well, what's the money for? And when I answer that, is that likely to actually make me happy? So we can each do a little internal check. What are the times when I've been the happiest? Was it actually when I had that new car? Maybe for a few minutes. But was it Actually, when I had that wonderful time with my niece and we just spent an afternoon knocking around the city of Boston together, that was magical for me. What I know when I check in myself is that the times that I'm happiest are having experiences with people I care about, doing things I care about, that they don't happen to be the things that money can buy. But if I were making $19,000 a year in New York City, darn right. Money matters hugely. And you're absolutely right that it's a level of stress that prevents us from being happy until we have those needs met.

That was a great question that you asked us to contemplate. I want to ask you as you're listening to just stop and think back on your life right now. And if you think about times where you are the happiest, what's interesting as I reflect on that question. It is 1,000% when I am out doing something with other people. It is being, for me anyway, outside. We're hiking, we're sitting and watching the sunset, we are out We're working in the yard, we're exploring some new area, and it's with other people and these experiences. And so I suppose if you can even just switch your perspective and think about money as a tool to help create more of those connections and experiences with other people, you have a completely different lens on it.

Exactly. And they've actually studied this. They actually studied what makes us happier paying for material things with our extra money or paying for experiences. And what they find is that paying for experiences, whether it's going to a National Park, tickets to a basketball game, going to a museum, whatever it might be, That makes us happier, and it makes us happier for longer than buying a physical object.

Awesome. So let's talk about comparison. How does comparing where you are in life to somebody else impact your happiness?

There's a quote from Teddy Roosevelt that I love. He said, Comparison is the thief of joy. And what we find when we study this is that people who compare themselves to other people more often day to day, in a given day, you are less happy. And the people who don't compare themselves as much feel better about life and better about themselves.

How the heck do we stop? Isn't it human nature to compare yourself to somebody else?

It is human nature, but there are situations that pull for comparison, and there are situations that don't.

And by pull, you mean it is triggering you to do it?

It makes us compare. Got you. Okay. Like, we almost can't help it. Yes. Okay, so what pulls for comparison? Doomscrolling through social media pulls for comparison. When I look at other people's curated lives, other people's photos of beautiful meals or great vacations, and I compare it to my own mundane life of driving through traffic, I think, I'm not living my best life. Everybody else has it figured out, right? Right. So social media, if we consume it passively, pulls for comparison. But what about gardening? What about birdwatching? It doesn't really make us want to compare. It's just, oh, my gosh, that's so amazing.

What would you say, though, to a 20-year-old that's listening to this? Because we have a huge range of listeners, and there's tons of families that share episodes back and forth, moms and dads sending to sons and daughters and vice versa. And so what would you say to the 20-year-old? Because the second that you said birdwatching and gardening, which I'm going on an owl walking date with my husband, like a tour with a local thing in our community on Sunday. I love it. And I can't wait. But if you had said birdwatching and gardening to me- Forget it. When I was in my 20s, I'd be like, delete, not listening to this anymore. So what do you say to somebody in their 20s? Who has grown up with a phone in their hand. Yeah. Who is now in a generation and in a life experience where everybody's outside life is on display, and it makes you feel terrible on the inside about where you are.

And what I would say is make sure you're spending a lot of time in real life, a lot of time away from your phone, or at least with your phone in your pocket, never taking it out with people in activities that you love. So what are the activities that you love? Is it playing basketball? It could be just hanging out with your friends doing nothing. I actually heard a story today on NPR are about how video games can put some people into a state of flow where they're just in it. They're just doing the game, and they're not thinking about, they're not comparing themselves. They're just trying to get better at this game. Now, can it addict us? Yes, it can. But video games can be a break from this comparison on social media. So there are all kinds of ways to find Find those places in your life where you're just in an activity that you love, that you're engaged in.

On that note on video games, I think this is a really important experience to share, is that I think they're very different than your kid or your loved one scrolling on social media because the social media and the surfing is passive and video game playing is very active. I remember when our son started getting super into video Sometimes my husband and I would be in the kitchen arguing because I was a big gamer when Atari came out and played video games all the time. And so I'm defending our son like, he doesn't need to be outside. He loves it. He's really good at it. There's nothing wrong with gaming. I know you didn't game. And I remember having this huge epiphany once where I went to check in on him one afternoon and he had a headset on, and there were seven of his friends playing. And he wasn't alone. He was not only in a state of flow, doing something very active with his mind and solving problems and doing all this stuff, but he was talking to his friends as they were all playing this game together. I say that because I think we often look at what's happening on the outside without realizing, Oh, there may be something deeper here.

And with video games, it doesn't surprise me that there's not only the state of flow, but a lot of people have found ways to stay very connected to other people by playing together.

Yes. And that's such an important point because we have these stereotypes, particularly of boys and young men, that, well, they're just loners and they're on their video games and they're not making connections. But What you said is exactly right. Many young men will say, I'm with my friends and we're doing this thing. I mean, how is it different from playing basketball with your friends? Now, there's a physical element, but still, there's a connection element in basketball and in some video games that I suspect is pretty similar.

When you look at the research from this 86-year-long study, what did the participants say at the end of their life? What were their What were the biggest regrets and what were the big lessons?

Okay. The biggest regrets, two categories. One was, I wish I hadn't spent so much time at work. I wish I had spent more time with people I cared about. Almost the number one regret. And then the other regret, and this came more from women than from men, was, I wish I hadn't worried so much about what other people thought. Those are the two big regrets. The things that people were proudest of were not their achievements, and many people had achieved a lot. It was people. It was I was a good mentor. I I was a good partner. I was a good parent. I was a good boss. It was always about the relationships. Even among people who had won huge prizes or gotten big accolades, that's not what they named when they were looking back on their life.

You said the biggest regret, particularly for women, was wasting so much of your life worrying about what other people think.

Yeah.

How do you stop doing that?

Well, it's realizing that, first of all, most of that's not going to matter when we're dead. Right? But what will matter, am I treating people well? That will matter, and people will remember it even after we're gone. It's not what people think, but it's what I do. So one of the sayings I like a lot is, 20 years from now, the only people who will remember whether you worked late are your children. And so if you think about it, so much of what we worry about, is my boss going to like me? Are people going to think I'm a good this or that? It's not going to matter down the road. But Whether I was a good ethical person, that's going to matter a lot. We matter and our behavior matters, but it's not necessarily other people's opinions about whether my curtains were the right shade of blue on the windows.

Yeah, you're missing the point. Yeah. I'm wondering, as one of the world's most respected and leading experts on happiness, what do you do every day to be happier?

I do the basics. I wake up in the morning and I do my meditation.

Now, do you lay in bed? Do you get up? How do you do your meditation?

I lay in bed.

Again, I'm a morning- Is that technically just snoozing? What are you doing? You literally are like, you wake up and then you meditate while you're lying there?

Then I meditate. Again, this is good for a morning. I'm a morning person. When I wake up, I wake up. I won't fall asleep again. But for people for whom it's difficult to wake up in the morning, get out of bed, wash your face, do whatever you need to energize, and then sit down if you need, or do walking meditation. But meditation is where I start. Then I read, and I love reading in bed, and I read quality stuff. I don't look at the news. That's very important.

You're not looking at TMZ on your phone? No. Just kidding.

That, yes, but not the other news. I do quality stuff in the morning. Then I'm responsible for taking the kids to school.

I love that. I bet they love that, too.

They do, and I do. We have a ritual around that where we talk, and then they ask me, Okay, dad, one message for the day. It could be something like, be generous, be kind, or appreciate, or whatever it is. They go with it and they also share it with their friends. That's pretty cool. Yeah. We have that, and Then I go home and I work. Mornings are my productive hours. Then I do yoga in the afternoon. Almost every day, I have lunch with my wife. Then sometimes work in the afternoon, do sports. I do a lot of sports. Do you still play squash? I didn't play squash for 25 years. I always said, If one of my kids plays, then I'll take it up again. Our little one, Our 14-year-old plays squash, so I play with him.

I bet you're a monster on the pickleball court.

I've never played pickleball, but I want to. I bet you would destroy it. I want to. Yeah. Then I love movies. I love reading, hanging out with friends, family.

I want to reflect on something because what you're describing sounds like a happy life. If you're not watching this on YouTube, you can probably hear Ntal's voice that he's smiling as he's reflecting on this. It is true that so many of us make ourselves unhappy because we think that the answer to it is something out there, that national championship, the getting into the right school, the right grades, the right this, the right that. What you just described is the little things you do every day that make you feel whole.

There's something very important, Mel, that I want to add. It may sound fairytale, Oh, he's always happy and always smiling. Far from it. I have my bad day.

I asked your kids. They said, Some days you're a real jerk.

They don't say jerk, but they say, Daddy, chill. Yeah, chill. It's important to understand. Not every morning when I get up, I want to write. Some mornings I get up and I want to stay in bed and do nothing. What is most important is what we do rather than what we feel. I do what I do, whether it's the yoga, whether it's the writing, whether it's spending time with family and friends, I do it even if I don't feel like it. Over time, what we do affects us. It also affects our feelings.

If I'm hearing you correctly, what you're saying is that one of the biggest things that somebody could take away from this conversation with you is that you are not hardwired to feel happy simply because you've achieved something. That happiness is tied to pursuing it, not the achieving of it?

Yes. If you do live by the belief that achievement will lead to happiness, that will cause you a great deal of unhappiness.

Oh, that's a big one.

In fact, that is one of the main causes for the levels of unhappiness that we see in our world because people are focusing on the wrong thing. They're climbing up the wrong mountain.

Can Can you break that down for us? Because I want to just stay on this point and highlight it. Because if thinking about happiness wrong creates unhappiness, explain to us how you want us to think about happiness.

So happiness is important. It matters. Just like we are hardwired not to celebrate successes forever, we're also hardwired to pursue happiness. So it's not that I'm saying, Okay, forget about happiness. Happiness matters. However, there's also research, and this is research done quite recently by a Professor Moss, M-A-U-S, showing that if I wake up in the morning and say to myself, I want to be happy, or happiness is important for me, or it's a value for me, I will actually become less happy.

What? Wait a minute.

Really? That was exactly my reaction. That's a problem. I read about this five years ago, and I said, But that's what I'm dedicating my life to. Of course, happiness is important for me. And yet what the research clearly shows is that This will make you less happy. Does this mean we should kid ourselves, say to ourselves, I don't want to be happy, wink, wink, I actually do. Self deception is certainly not the path to happiness. So what do What we do about it? Well, let me use an analogy that was very helpful for me in thinking about happiness. Imagine you go outside. It's a beautiful sunny day, and you want to enjoy the sun. You look up at the sun directly. What happens? You hurt yourself. It burns. It hurts. You tear up. So looking at the sun directly hurts. However, what if you take a prism and you break the sunlight, and then you look at what has just been broken? In other words, the colors of the rainbow. Then you can look at the sunlight and enjoy it, but you're looking at it indirectly. It's the same with happiness. Pursuing it directly and saying, I want to be happy.

Happiness is important for me. That will make us unhappy. But if I break down happiness into its metaphorical colors of the rainbow and then pursue it indirectly, that is when I can actually become happier.

Okay, so I'm going to see if I can understand this because you're saying, I totally get the part that if you focus on something maniacally, right? You're going to get the sun spots. You cannot hold that intent gaze at something, even if you want to. But when the sunlight hits a prism and it cast a rainbow, you're saying that the rainbow is the way that you indirectly enjoy the sun. I have so many questions. The first one I have is, what is the definition of happiness?

There are five elements to happiness. There may be more, but five main elements to happiness, which we call the spire element.

The spire.

S-p-i-r-e. S stands for spiritual Wellbeing. Spiritual Wellbeing is about, of course, we can attain it through religion, but we can also find it through doing something that is meaningful to us, purposeful. By being mindful, by being present, we experience the spiritual. That's one of the colors of the rainbow. If I wake up in the morning and say, I want to be happy, I'll be less happy. But if I wake up in the morning and say, I want to find something which is more meaningful to do, or I'm going to meditate for 10 minutes now, that is an indirect way of pursuing happiness. That's one of the colors. That's the S of spire, the P of spire. That's physical well-being. Physical well-being is about nutrition. It's about rest and It's about recovery, sleep. It's about touch. It's about what we eat. That, of course, matters. If I start to exercise regularly, that's an indirect way of pursuing happiness. If I eat more healthfully, the same. Then we have the I of spire. I stands for intellectual well-being. That's about curiosity, about asking questions, about constantly learning, about deep diving, whether it's into a text or a work of art or nature.

And these are, again, all indirect ways of pursuing happiness. The fourth color of the rainbow, the R of spire, relational well-being. Number one predictor of happiness, quality time we spend with people we care about and who care about us. So if I spend more time with my loved ones, indirectly pursuing happiness. And finally, the E of spire, emotional well-being. Emotional well-being is, first of all, about giving ourselves the permission to be human. In other words, embracing painful emotions that are natural part of any life, even a happy life, sadness, anger, frustration, allowing these emotions to freely flow through us, paradoxically, actually leads to more happiness. So these five elements of happiness, spiritual, physical, intellectual, relational, and emotional well-being, are the metaphorical colors of the rainbow. And when we pursue them, we're actually pursuing happiness indirectly and becoming happier.

As you were describing all five elements, you did keep saying the word well-being. And what I wonder as I'm listening, because it makes a lot of sense, right? That all of these components go into a a whole look at how to elevate or experience happiness in your life. What do I got to achieve next to feel that thing that I want to feel? How would you begin to explain to somebody like that what this actually means and how you pursue it. If you don't even know what happiness feels like, you got the wrong definition.

The first thing that I would do is I would take a step back and explore models of happiness, because if you think about it, in our culture today, we have two major models of happiness. The one model of happiness, which is mostly associated with the West, is you become happier by achieving your goals. That's the most important thing. You get to the peak of the mountain, then you'll be happy. That's a model that I tried and that many people tried. It doesn't really work. The other model that people veer towards is, Okay, so the future doesn't get us happiness, let's focus on the now. Let's just be in the present moment.

Yes.

That's an alternative model, which is mostly, again, this is very broad brush strokes, mostly associated with the east, meditation, mindfulness, being the here and now. There are problems with both models. We know what the problem is with the future-oriented model, but there's also a problem with the present-oriented model, and that is human nature again. Because we do want goals, we are ambitious, we do want to achieve things, and whether you're living here or in Vietnam. The question is, can these two models be reconciled? In other words, can you draw the best of both worlds? The answer is yes. Goals matter. They're important, whether it is to win a championship in sports, or whether it is to get into a college, or whether it is to make X amount of money. Goals matter. We care about them.

Why do they matter in the in the context of happiness?

Well, they matter because, again, it's part of our nature. We want to improve. We want to get better. That's a beautiful and wonderful part of our nature, which we ought to celebrate, not attack. That's a good thing. However, what we also know is that the achievement of these goals will not make us happy. What will make us happy? Not the achievement of these goals, but the existence of these goals. Whether or not I achieve them is actually less important. To have them matters. Why does it matter? Because think about it, you go on a road trip and you've no idea where you're going. You turn left or right, you look over, am I falling over a cliff? What should I do today? Is this the right thing? You're meandering, you're not certain, you're not happy then. But if you know, I'm going to the top of that mountain over there, then you can go there with full energy, with motivation, motivation, especially if that mountaintop is meaningful to you, which is an important component of a goal, of course. You have a meaningful goal, you're going towards it. What does having that goal do? What it does for you is it liberates you to enjoy the here and now.

That makes a lot of sense.

That's how the two of them are reconciled.

Because it gives your day-to-day life a sense of purpose and direction. I can see How if you wake up in the morning and you're either just going through the motions or you wake up in the morning and you're not quite sure what to do with your time because you're not quite sure what you want, how that lack of purpose then starts to probably make you think too much and probably make you start to dwell on questions like, Am I happy? Am I not happy? What should I be doing? I don't know. Am Am I lost? Am I stuck? I mean, I've certainly been in those areas of my life, and so you're absolutely right about that. I see what you're saying.

And then what that means is that that future goal is not an end, but rather a means. It's a means towards liberating you to enjoy the here and now.

Let's get a definition of what happiness means in the context of this conversation. Because it's really not a feeling of positivity. For me, when I use the word happy, it is a feeling of being content, present, and okay with yourself in your life. That whatever is going on on the outside around you, that you have this ability to access a positive and supportive and optimistic baseline that is deep inside of you. And I think that's one of the mistakes that I made. I was always looking outside of me. Oh, When I get my bills paid, when I fall in love, when I get into that school. And the truth is, if I'm being honest with you, I've been miserable for as long as I can remember. I was miserable in high school. I was miserable in college. I got into my dream school. I was at Dartmouth. I was miserable at Dartmouth. I then got into law school. I was miserable in law school. I then got a great job as a public defender. I liked the job, but I wasn't happy with myself. I got married to somebody that I loved, but I wasn't really happy with myself.

Again, chasing on the outside, chasing on the outside. And I bet you do, too. I guarantee you somewhere in your mind, you're saying to yourself, Oh, if I lose the weight, then I'll be happier. If I find the love of my life, I'll be happier. Oh, if I get into that graduate school, if I pay off my debt, then I'll be happier. That's not how it works. See, I'm sure you've heard people talk about the fact that happiness is an inside job. I didn't know what the hell that meant. And so we're going to dig into what that means. And in fact, I want to bring a metaphor into the conversation. I got to credit my friend Hoda over at the Today Show because she gave me this metaphor literally a couple of days ago. I was on the show on Friday, and right before we started taping, I was talking with Jenna and Hoda, and we're sitting on the couches, and Hoda said this phrase, and I didn't know what the heck she was talking about. She said, pop up in the eye of a hurricane. I'm like, what? What do you mean pop up in the eye of a hurricane?

I guess she had been covering a story where they were in a hurricane. And she said, well, Mel, have you ever seen the eye of a storm? And I'm like, no, I never have. I've seen the swirling tornado hurricane thing before when they see it on the news. Well, she said, well, my gosh, if you pop up in the middle of one, it's crazy quiet and still. Like, there's all this chaos on the outside that you see when you see a hurricane or you see a tornado, or you see this huge storm, but in the eye of it, it's still. And when she described this, I immediately latched onto that visual. Now, I, of course, have never been in the middle of a storm like that, but I started to think about the fact that life, life can feel like this gigantic storm, right? Of chaos and things that are spinning around you all the time. And there are times in your life where things can feel completely out of control. And in my life, if I'm being really raw and real with you, I was the hurricane. I was constantly in a state of chaos internally.

Yeah, I was smiling on the outside, but things were spinning around on the inside. And usually, it was this negative feeling, like something was wrong or something bad was going to happen. I was always just spinning and spinning and spinning. And if you can't relate to that, I bet you can relate to the fact that often in life, it feels like you can get swept up by the things that are going on around you. One of One of the things that I discovered in the past three years is that when I took a really hard look at myself, I'm the one that has been the hurricane of chaos. That my mood was often out of control because my mood was dependent on things that were outside of me. I was so easily turned into a bad mood or feeling disappointed or being stressed out or being sad or being all these things that I didn't want feel. And so when Hoda shared this with me on Friday, I thought, You know what? I knew that I was going to talk to you about happiness today, and I thought, I got to bring this in because I do think that this connects to happiness, and here's how.

The eye of the hurricane, that stillness in the midst of something chaotic going on outside of you. That is what I'm talking about when I talk about happiness. That no matter what is happening or who you're with, that you can access this quietness inside of you. Because learning how to be still and content, that is powerful. It doesn't matter who you're around or where you are, no matter what is happening, what's not happening. Learning how to access that inside of you, to me, is the secret to happiness. So let me just ask you, can you do that? When things are swirling around you, when you feel a bad mood get triggered, when life gets super stressful, are you able to come into yourself and tap into this centeredness, this okayness? Can you let positive energy flow in, even when it feels like things around you are chaotic? Well, if you're like Mel Robbins, the answer is no. But I want to be able to do that. You can, and that's the good news. You can find your strength. You can find your center. You can find the ability to be content even when there is a storm brewing.

And I didn't know how to do this. My life felt like that hurricane. Your life might feel like that, too. When I look back, my life was nothing but a relentless grind. Seriously. It was a grind to pay the bills. It was a grind to deal with the constant anxiety. It was a grind to be in a relationship where I felt always annoyed with the person that I was married to. My commute was a pain. Every single thing felt hard. It felt like a fight. The only relief from that hurricane that I felt, which was my life for many years, was basically pouring a drink at night. Or I would focus on the weekend that was coming. Okay, if I can just get to the weekend, I got to get through this work week, get to the weekend. It's just two days from now. Then I can step outside of the stress of this. I can escape my life for a minute. I can drive the kids to all the things they need to do over the weekend. I'll blow off some steam at a barbecue with some friends. I'll sleep in, and then I'll get right back to it.

Or Chris and I would be able to take a short vacation to go visit my parents or his parents, and we'd escape our life for that. But my daily existence, I would describe by two words. I was frustrated or I was disappointed. Like Like I said earlier, I thought that making money would make me happy. I thought that if I just pay off these bills, if I can just breathe a little bit, I will find happiness. And the truth is, there is a certain amount of money that will make you happier. Because if you've ever been in the experience that I've been in my life, where you can't pay your bills, there is a crushing level of stress that you feel because you are constantly worried about money. And so it is true. There is a certain level of money that will make you a little bit happier. But here's what's also true. Once you can pay your bills, once you can make the ends meet, making more money doesn't solve the underlying problem, which is you don't know how to be happy. I think that's the bottom line. I didn't know I got to be happy.

That's why I was looking outside of myself. That's why I was thinking that something else would somehow make me a happier person. But here's what you will learn. You can listen to a bazillion podcast. You can try to improve your life all day long. You can chip away at all the problems that you have on the outside. You can get your bills paid. You can get yourself out of debt. You can figure out how to make your marriage happier. But that's all outside of you. Once you handle all that stuff, you know what happens? It just magnifies the fact that you haven't dealt with what actually isn't working on the inside. And that's what happened to me. Once I worked my tail off to fix everything that wasn't working, from the issues in my marriage to the crushing that we used to face, to helping my kids through the various issues that they had, I had to face the person in the mirror. Once you solve all the things that are wrong around you, the hurricane is supposed to disappear, right? Wrong. Because the hurricane, when it comes to happiness, is inside of you. And that's exactly what I came face to face with three years ago.

Hey, it's Mel. Thank you so much for being here. If you enjoyed that video, by God, please subscribe because I don't want you to miss a thing. Thank you so much for being here. We've got so much amazing stuff coming. Thank you so much for sending this stuff to your friends and your family. I love you. We create these videos for you, so make sure you subscribe.