Hey, I'm Gianna Pridenti. And I'm Jamais Jackson-Gadston. We're the host of Let's Talk Offline from LinkedIn News and iHeartPodcasts. There's a lot to figure out when you're just starting your career. That's where we come in. Think of us as your work besties you can turn to for advice. And if we don't know the answer, we bring in people who do, like negotiation expert Mori Teherypore. If you start thinking about negotiations as just a conversation, then I think it eases us a little bit. Listen to Let's Talk Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. I'm Kari Champion, and this is season four of Naked Sports. Up first, I explore the making of a rivalry, Kaitlyn Clarke versus Angel Reece. Every great player needs a foil. I know I'll go down in history. People are talking about women's basketball just because of one single game. Clarke and Reece have changed the way we consume women's sports. Listen to the making of a rivalry, Kaitlyn Clarke versus Angel Reece on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Presented by Elfbeauty, founding partner of iHeartWomen's I'm Kari Champion, and this is season four of Naked Sports.

Up first, I explore the making of a rivalry, Kaitlyn Clarke versus Angel Reece. People are talking about women's basketball just because of one single game. Clarke and Reece have changed the way we consume women's basketball. And on this new season, we'll cover all things sports and culture. Listen to Naked Sports on the Black Effect podcast Network, iHeard radio apps, or wherever you get your podcast. The Black Effect podcast Network is sponsored by Diet Coke. I'm Jess Cossabetto, executive producer of the hit Netflix documentary series, Dancing for the Devil: The 7M TikTok Cult. And I'm Clea gray, former member of 7M Films and Chicana Church. And we're the host of the new podcast, Forgive Me For I Have Followed. Together, we'll be diving even deeper into the unbelievable stories behind 7M Films and Shoshana Church. Listen to Forgive Me For I Have Followed on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Hey, everybody. This is Matt Rogers. And Bowen Yang. We've got some exciting news for you. You know we're always bringing you the best guest, right? Well, this week we're taking it to the next level. The one, the only, Katherine Han is joining us on Lost Culture East.

That's right. The Queen of Comedy herself. Get ready for a conversation that's as hilarious as it is insightful. Tune in for all the laughs, the stories, and of course, the culture. Don't miss Katherine Han on Las Culturistas. Listen to Las Culturistas on Will Farrell's Big Money Players Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. Missing in Arizona contains graphic depictions of violence and may not be suitable for all listeners. From iHeartRadio and Neon 33, I'm John Walzack, and this is Missing in Arizona. The story of a man who disappeared after allegedly killing his wife and kids, blowing up their suburban home, and escaping into the wilderness. 23 years later, I'm hunting Robert Fischer, I need your help. What got me about this case were the caves. People often pitch me story ideas. Many are good, few are great. It's extremely rare to find one that warrants two years of exhaustive investigative labor. There has to be an X factor. A man kills his family, blows up their house, and flees into the wilderness. Go on, then escapes or dies in a cave. Okay, sold. I picture a Goonies-style skeleton in an underground cave in the Arizona Mountains, a romantic, morbid Western adventure.

Of course, I want to search the caves myself, but first I need to find them. And let me tell you, the Arizona caving community is the most secretive group I have ever encountered, more than anyone I met while reporting on the Mafia or 9/11 or anything, really. No one will tell me the location of these caves, and they're not on a map. But I know that they're very close to where police found Mary Fisher's forerunner. Find the SUV, find the caves. For months, I examine every piece of data for clues, every news report, every police record. I'm proud to say in the end, my best final guess is within a quarter mile of the actual spot. But that's not good enough. These aren't Hollywood caves. They're holes in the forest floor, tiny dark doors into a subterráne world. They're easy to miss in a vast wilderness. I need the exact spot. I need help. This is where I introduce you to Paul Gemperline. Hey, you all. Paul is a fan of Season 1, Missing in Alaska. Of the thousands of people who contacted me, he's been the most helpful. When I choose this case, I email Paul, hoping to loop him in as an amateur researcher and satellite imagery analyst.

Unsurprisingly, he says, Yes. Surprisingly, he tells me he's also a recreational caver. An intelligent, tech-savvy, caving superfan? A perfect fit. The plan? Our producer Chris and I will go into the woods with Scottsdale Detective T. J. J. J. Duran, trying to find the forerunner spot based on my research and T. J.'s memories. I'll video the woods, and from his headquarters in Kentucky, Paul will try to pinpoint exactly where the SUV was abandoned, like literally the tree it was parked against. So one pleasant Phoenix morning, Chris and I meet up with T. J. And drive into the mountains. A twist here, a turn there. Okay, so this is Young Road. Turn right now. So now we're going to start heading down the-512. We descend from the top of the Muggie on Rim, that jagged strip of cliffs extending across Arizona. Young Road is paved for a bit. Then, Bumpy. Look at my fucking back wind shield. Holy... Oh, fuck. So you used to have a Bronco? Yeah. Was that back in the OJ era? I actually He bought it in 94, the year he was arrested. And I go to the Ford dealership, and there's a white Bronco, and I told the guy, I don't want a fucking white Bronco.

So he shows me all these different colors. And I picked one that was turquoise green, but it had the white top. It had the turquoise top, and it looked stupid. So he goes, Well, here, come around back. Let me show you what else we got. And he takes me around back. There's like 15 white Broncos lined up. I'm like, I told you, I don't want an OJ Bronco. We're driving down this dirt road faster than OJ on an LA highway when... Your destination is ahead on the left. We're here. Where? There should be a little road that we can turn left onto. Is it... No. Holy shit. That's it. That's it. Yeah. Shit. We turn onto a raggedy side road and park. It should be right, generally, in this direction. Do you want to walk? Yeah. An eerie silence forms the soundtrack of the forest, interrupted only by our footsteps in the wind. I pull out my phone. I don't have cell service, but I have GPS. So since the map is loaded, if we start walking, we'll see Okay, well, we're here, and then we'll get right to that spot. So we walk. Watch where you walk.

Rattlesnakes and bears. Tj and I head in different directions. Memory guides him. Gps guides me. Do you mind if I walk to finish the coordinates. Tj, yelling at me to follow him. I can tell he's pissed. I ignore him and speed walk away. We've made it so far. I'm not stopping until I reach these coordinates. Hey, TJ, I think this is it. Our producer Chris is stranded in the middle, unsure who to follow, me or TJ. Tj. The cave's over here. I found it. Tj walks over. That's it. That's the cave. The cave that shall not be named. I know its name, but I've been asked by cavers not to publicize it. They're worried a name will help people find and vandalize it, which means I get to rename it. Apex. Short. Simple. The name of my high school. Winding through the forest, I spot a sink hole, maybe 30 feet wide, 30 feet long. A wash or seasonal creek bed flows right into it. Today, there's no water, 100% dry. The sink is filled with branches and leaves and dirt. A fallen tree crosses from one side to the other. A precarious bridge. Peering down maybe 20 feet at the bottom Between craggy rocks, there it is, the cave entrance.

I know the forerunner was parked near here within 150 feet. The problem is it all looks the same. Trees, bushes, rocks. This will take more detective work. So I video it. Then T. J. Chris and I walk back to the car. Jesus Christ, John, you made me fucking sweat. T. J and I laugh about bolting in different directions, yelling at each other. And then some poor sap caught in the middle. Sorry, guys, but we made it. Back in Phoenix, I send my video to Paul Gemperline. I often joke that these stories turn me into John Nash or Cary Matheson or Charlie from It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia, a crazed person surrounded by maps and charts and stickiness. Notes. Paul puts me to shame. I see his computer monitors. They're playing a dozen videos simultaneously. He's comparing old footage of the forerunner recovery, every archived angle, to video I took in the woods. Here a tree, there a bush. Here Here's some rocks, there a shadow. Can we narrow it down? Can we find the exact spot where Robert left Mary's forerunner? I think I figured it out. Went a little bit crazy in the process.

Yes, this genius man found it. I've identified those double trees. I've identified this dead tree. I've identified this leaning tree. This tree here. I've identified the dead one there. Voila. Thank you, Paul. So at this point, we found the cave and the forerunner spot, which allows Paul to search old satellite satellite imagery for any photos taken between April 10th and April 20th, 2001. Why? Let's say we find an image from, I don't know, April 16th. Can we see the forerunner? If so, we can narrow down how long it was in the woods, tighten the timeline. Paul starts to rule out or in dozens of satellites. It's a taxing month-long chore with no payoff until one day, an email from Paul. The good-ish news is that the spot four satellite took two two 10-metre resolution photos of the Toyota location on April 16, 2001. We got lucky with this because there is zero % cloud cover, and the bit of overlap between satellite images happened to work out that the location was photographed twice. We're even more lucky because there's also a 15-metre resolution Landsat image of the area taken on April 15, 2001. Paul strikes again.

He finds images of the forerunner spot taken by two different satellites during the correct period. Unfortunately, that's where the good news ends. Only About 4% of a 15 meter pixel would be filled by a Toyota. Additionally, it would be under tree cover and also possibly split across as many as four pixels. If you zoom in down to the pixel on a 15 meter resolution set image, a forerunner would cover only 4% of that pixel. Tantalizingly close, but useless for us. We need high resolution photos. It's frustrating to stare at my screen at this wide swath of Arizona from the right time frame, knowing the forerunner is likely down there somewhere. I zoom into the spot where Greg, the camper, found it. This is the part of CSI when I'd say enhance, and the image would resolve to finer detail. But in reality, it doesn't work that way. Blurry, blurrier, blurry-est. One pixel, no detail. We've now ruled out all but three satellites, our last hope, IRS1C, IRS1D, and AerosA. The first two were operated by the Space Agency of India, The Third, by an Israeli company. As Paul digs around online, I email the Indian and Israeli embassies in DC.

Paul soon determines there's no way the Indian satellites capture the photos we need. The final, final hope is Eros A, which would give us two meter images, detailed enough to see the forerunner. In August 2023, I get an email from the Israeli embassy saying they'll check on it. Six weeks later, Hamas attacks Israel. War breaks out. I never hear back from them again. We still haven't determined whether or not Eros A captured imagery of the forerunner's spot in April 2001. If you can help, please contact us. I'm Jess Cossabetto, executive producer of the hit Netflix documentary series, Dancing for the Devil: The 7M TikTok Cult. I'm Clea gray, former member of 7M Films and Chicana Church. And we're the of the new podcast, Forgive Me For I Have Followed. Together, we'll be diving even deeper into the unbelievable stories behind 7M Films and LA Bay Chicana Church, an alleged cult that has impacted members for over two decades. Jessica and I will delve into the hidden truths between high control groups and interview dancers, church members, and others whose lives and careers have been impacted, just like mine. Through powerful in-depth interviews with former members and new chilling first-hand accounts, the series will illuminate untold and extreme extremely necessary perspectives.

Forgive Me For I Have Followed will be more than an exploration. It's a vital revelation aimed at ensuring these types of abuses never happen again. Listen to Forgive Me For I Have Followed on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, and or wherever you get your podcast. Hey, I'm Giana Prdenti. And I'm Jemai Jackson-Gadston. We're the host of Let's Talk Offline, a new podcast from LinkedIn News and iHeartPodcasts. When you're just starting out in your career, you have a lot a lot of questions, like, How do I speak up when I'm feeling overwhelmed? Or, Can I negotiate a higher salary if this is my first real job? Girl, yes. Each week, we answer your unfiltered work questions. Think of us as your work besties you can turn to for advice. And if we don't know the answer, we bring in experts who do, like Resume Specialist, Morgan Sanner. The only difference between the person who doesn't get the job and the person who gets the job is usually who applies. Yeah, I think a lot about that quote. What is it? You miss 100% of the shots you never take. Yeah, rejection is scary, but it's better than you rejecting yourself.

Together, we'll share what it really takes to thrive in the early years of your career without sacrificing your sanity or sleep. Listen to Let's Talk offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. I'm Kari Champion, and this is season 4 of Naked Sports, where we live at the intersection of sports and culture. Up first, I explore the making of a rivalry, Kaitlyn Clarke versus Angel Rees. I know I'll go down in history. People are talking about women's basketball just because of one single game. Every great player needs a foil. I ain't really near them. Why? I just come here to play basketball every single day, and that's what I focus on. From college to the pros, Clark and Rees have changed the way we consume women's sports. Angel Reece is a joy to watch. She is unapologetically Black. I love her. What exactly ignited this fire? Why has it been so good for the game? And can the fanfare surrounding these two supernovas be sustained? This game is only going to get better because the talent is getting better. This new season will cover all things sports and culture. Listen to Naked Sports on the Black Effect podcast Network, iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast.

The Black Effect podcast network is sponsored by Diet Coke. We're just days away from our 2024 iHeartRadio Music Festival, presented by Capital One. The biggest headliners in live music will be taking over T-Mobile Arena, Las Vegas. Plus some special surprises and moments you are not going to want to miss. Stream only on Hulu. The iHeartRadio Music Festival. And listen on iHeartRadio. The most anticipated live music event of the year. This Friday and Saturday, starting at 10:30 PM Eastern, 7:30 Pacific. Hey, everybody. This is Matt Rogers. And Bowen Yang. We've got some exciting news for you. You know we're always bringing you the best guests, right? Well, this week we're taking it to the next level. The one, the only, Katherine Han is joining us on Lost Culture East. That's right. The queen of comedy herself. Get ready for a conversation that's as hilarious as it is insightful. Tune in for all the laughs, the stories, and of course, the culture. I feel some Sandra Bernhardt in you. Oh, my God. I would love it. I have to watch Lost. Oh, you have to. No, I know. I'm so behind. Katherine Han can say. I'm really good at karaoke.

What's your song? Yeah, what's your song? Oh, I love a ballad. I felt Bjork's music. I just was like, who is this person? I got to Hawk this slalom, Loogie. Not Hawk this slalom. I absolutely love it. It was somehow Shakespearean when you said it. It was somehow gorgeous. Yee, my fuck, you haul them. Listen to Las Culturistas on Will Farrell's Big Money Players Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, so we found the Forerunner spa and a cave. What about other caves in the area? My hope is that someone will give us a list, or better yet, a map. That's dashed immediately when I realized that the Arizona caving community is something of a secret society. They do not like outsiders, especially reporters. The joke in the caving community is, Hey, I'm going caving in Arizona. The joke is, There's no caves in Arizona. Ken Bailey, a caver in Kentucky. We all have a big laugh because no one is going to tell you a location of a cave in Arizona. It's just not going to happen. You'll find two modes of thought in the caving community.

Dave Decker, a caver in New Mexico. Arizona is on the far side of that, which is we don't have any caves, so don't come here looking for caves. The reason that they want to keep things secret, and I'm more along these lines myself, is that you've got this group in the general public that they don't care about the caves, they don't care about the wildlife, they don't care about the archeological history that may be associated with it. They just want to go in there and party, throw beer cans around, knock down the stalagmites, and spray paint the walls. This is critical to understand. The caving community is secretive because they've been burned repeatedly. Vandals routinely desecrate pristine caves, destroying irreplaceable features of beauty that took thousands of years to form. It's not that these cavers are asocial. They can be friendly. It just pains them to see something so elegant, something they love deeply, defiled. So they turn inward. They're suspicious of outsiders. They have a code. Don't speak to outsiders, especially not a podcaster looking for the body of a killer. Beyond Vandals, even people who mean well can unintentionally do irreparable harm. One big concern is white nose syndrome, a fungal disease that kills bats.

More than six million since 2006. Humans can spread it to unaffected caves where bats hibernate. There's more, but you get the idea. Early on, I try to build trust. I tell cavers that I worked for years at a biodiversity research institute. I care about nature. I love nature. That doesn't work. Silence. I fail. To be frank, it pisses me off. I have 10 million things to do. I'm trying to report this story responsibly, and no one will help me. Meanwhile, YouTubers who just don't care are recklessly going into many of these caves anyway. Slow, though, I earned some trust. More so, several cavers helped me off the record because I learn information independently, and now they need me because they don't want certain things publicized, like the name of the cave 150 feet from where police found Mary's forerunner. Keep in mind, I already committed to not publishing coordinates or directions or anything like that. But the name, not even the name? I think this desire for secrecy will backfire, but I'm honoring their wishes. To this day, I still don't know exactly how many caves are within a mile of the forerunner's spot. At least four, including.

Apex. Again, only 150 feet from where police find the forerunner. Our producer Chris and I do a little test. We park a Subaru Crosetrek at that exact spot. We walk to APEX and can still easily see the cross track. It makes sense why police thought Robert Fisher was hiding here. They couldn't enter it in 2001. The entrance was too tight. Instead, they called a plumber who snaked in a drain camera. No sign of Fisher. 41 Club. 41 Club is on tribal land, the Fort Apache Indian Reservation. Police tear-gassed it in 2001. No sign of Fisher. Pishiburro. P-i-s-h-i-b-o-r-o. Though I've seen alternate spellings. It's unclear if police attempted to search it. And Redman. Redman is locally famous. Police tried to search it. No sign of Fisher. There's something you should know about Redman, another reason for all the secrecy. Caves, even popular ones like Redman, can be deadly. You have to worry about sliding into a crevasse. You have to worry about rocks breaking off and bashing flashing in your skull. You have to worry about bad air. Decaing organic matter creates pockets of air saturated with carbon dioxide. It can kill you. You have to worry about critters, snakes, mountain lions, bears.

You have to worry about hypothermia. You even have to worry about the rapture, an extreme anxiety that you need to get the f out now. Inexperienced people can easily die in caves. In fact, one died in Redman. His name was Aaron Standage. On February February 24, 2001, only six weeks before the Fisher murders, Standage and a friend descend into Redman and traversed it until they reached a flooded sump or passage at the back of the cave. The friend squeezed through a three-foot hole and swam 10 feet underwater, surfacing in a cavern with only 6 inches of air between water and the rocky ceiling above. Standage swam into the same cramped space, according to the Pace and Roundup. Bobbing in the water, breathing scarce air, they debate waited what to do. The friend turned around. When Standage didn't follow, the friend sought help. A rescue diver entered the flooded sump through the three-foot hole, feet first, pulling an air tank behind him. Navigating underwater, he bumped into a body. Using his legs, the diver pulled the body out of a crevice, slowly through the sump to the surface. Neither Standage nor his friend, a certified diver, took any safety precautions, according to the Hela County Sheriff's office.

They were strictly diving in, holding their breath, swimming underwater, and hoping they had air in the next cavern. My goal here is not to scare you off from caves. They can be places of discovery and adventure, of camaraderie or solitude. With experience, clients or guides, they're typically safe. But you need to exercise caution. Caves are unpredictable. Even professionals die. The most famous death occurred 99 years ago. A man named Floyd Collins got stuck in a cave in Kentucky, pinned in place by fallen rocks. For weeks, dozens of men tried to save him. The rescue became a national spectacle. Millions followed updates via radio. Tens of thousands showed up in person. Vendors sold everything from balloons to hamburgers, according to the Daily Beast, bread and circus. A newspaper reporter, William Burke Miller, only 5'5, even managed to crawl to Collins and interview him. Miller won a Pulitzer. Collins died. For years, his body was a forest attraction, displayed in a glass-covered casket. Pay a dollar, enter a cave, see a corpse. In 1929, someone stole the body. It was recovered, minus a leg. Finally, in 1989, Collins got a proper burial. Since the Collins spectacle, caves have popped up repeatedly in mass media.

In 1973, Cormac McCarthy published Child of God, a novel in which, spoiler alert, a man kills a woman, burns down her house, and flees to a cave. In In 2005 alone, Hollywood gave us The Cavern, Spalunker's Fall Pray to a Supernatural Force in Russian Caves, 6% on Rotten tomatoes. The Cave, Monsters Hunt Spalunkers in Romanian Caves, 12%. And The Descent, set in Western North Carolina, 87 %. I love that film. I saw The Descent in a theater a week before moving to Asheville, North Carolina for college. There is, of course, so much more. Caves in literature and song and lore. From Plato to Mumford and Sons, to the Lord of the Rings. Xi Jinping lived in a cave for seven years. A cave in Kenya gave us Ebola. A cave in Greece gave us Armageddon. John of Patmos had apocalyptic visions and recorded the Book of Revelation in that cave. I once hiked Devil's Courthouse, a mountain in North Carolina with a cave that, according to Cherokee legend, is home to a slant-eye giant named Judicula. Judicula controls wind, rain, thunder, and lightning. We rarely see caves in a positive light. They're usually scenes of fear, horror, death, isolation.

That's what we project onto them. But extricated from human narratives, they're undeniably sublime, exquisite quirks of nature. They form in many ways. The ones near the forerunner's spot, where police thought Robert Fischer was hiding, are called solution caves. They have been carved out over the course of hundreds of thousands of years by the action of running water, dissolving away the limestone. Frank Kimbler is a geologist and associate professor of Earth Science at New Mexico Military Institute. He lived in Arizona from the late '80s until 2009, working as an engineer for the State Department of Mines and Mineral Resources. He explored the caves near the Forerunners spot in the '90s. The first thing he tells me is that... The caving community is very secretive, and they won't tell you anything. Because... People trash things out really bad, and they leave cans. There's this caving thing that says, Leave nothing behind and kill nothing but time and take nothing but pictures. Frank has been in two of the four caves near the Forerunners spot, 41 Club and Pichiburro, where in 1992, he almost died. On the way out, I was really tired. My arms were cramping up and I miscalculated the stride length.

You need to have enough space to reach up and grab the top ledge to pull yourself out. And what happened was on the way out with my arms cramping up and I was dead tired, I get to the top and I was about a foot short. I'm going, Oh, my God, I messed up the stride length. I'm dangling in there and I'm going, All right, I'm too tired to go back down and redo and then come back up. I was the last person out and my friend Wayne was at the very top waiting for me. I tried to reach him and I couldn't reach. He reached down and I stretched with all my might. He caught my fingertips and literally pulled me I was scared to death. I thought it was going to die dangling in Pichiburro Cave, but he pulled me out, and when I got to the top, I just laid down. I said, Thank you, Wayne. This is the second time you've saved my life. He says, Don't worry about it. It's what friends are for. Pichiburro was much harder to access than other caves like 41 Club or Redman. First, you had to descend into a deep sink hole.

You would absolutely have to repel to get down into Pichiburro. No other way to get in there, and that's about 40 to 60 feet to get to the bottom. In 1992, right after Frank's near-death experience, the Pichibur sink hole collapsed. Now, there's only one way in. The flat metal plate goes in through what's called the fallopian tubes, aptly named. I wouldn't be able to fit through it. You probably would because you look like you're a pretty slender dude. So fallopian tubes is horrible to get through with fancy names like Restricter One and Restricter Two. And you're telling me that it's so tight that... I mean, I'm 5'8, 135 pounds, so I could probably do it, but you're not- You could do it. You're not that big of a guy, but it's tight enough that you don't think you would be able to get in that? I know. When I was younger, I weighed 165, and I could have done it. It would have been a little bit of a stretch, but I was used to that. But now that I'm 189 pounds, I don't think so. By chance, Frank is within one pound of Robert Fisher's weight, 190 pounds when he disappeared.

I think the chub around the good life from my wife's cooking, I It would have been stopped at probably restricter one because they have different diameters on them. That's the reason why they named them restricter one and restricter two. And it's the name. I mean, fallopian tubes. That describes how tight that is. If I went in there, am I just in an extraordinarily claustrophobic tube for a long period of time until it opens up. You would be. You would be. That's a guarantee. And I've been in tight places like that before. You would have been probably more than 100 feet of ultra tight. We're talking about got to have your hands directly in front of you, not by your sides, and you got to push with your feet and pull with your hands to get through it. No way to turn around, no way to do anything. You can't back out. Just once you get started, you got to keep going. When I spoke to a coworker of Robert Fisher's from the early '90s, she was the first person to confirm to me that he had been in at least one cave in that area, and she did not remember the name of the cave, but what she said is that they went biking with some coworkers and that Fisher and some of his coworkers went into a cave and then came out another entrance.

As far as I could tell, the only one in that area that fits that description is Pichiburro. Are there any other caves in that area that you know of that you can enter one way and exit another? I got to think about this. You can't do it in 41 Club as far as I can remember. Pichiburro, before the sink hole entrance collapse, if you knew the way around inside that cave and knew it well, yes, you could go in one side and come out the Although coming out the fallopian tubes would be an absolute bitch. Going in that way is an absolute bitch. 41 Club, I heard somebody say something that there was another entrance to that. I don't know, and I don't remember. But I do know that Pichiburro had two ways in and two ways out at one time. Now, I think it only has one unless somebody made some discoveries since I was there. I haven't been able to determine which cave Robert, Ashley, and their coworkers entered in the '90s. Pichiburro seems unlikely. They would have had to either rappel down into a sink hole or crawl through fallopian tubes. Neither matches Ashley's account.

But I'm unaware of any other cave in the area through which Fisher could enter one way and exit another. Frank and I are kindred spirits. It's adventurous souls. I suspect you are, too. Past caves, we chat about lost minds and treasures and UFOs. Sorry, UAPs. I once hunted for Forest Fenn's treasure. So did Frank. Fenn was an art dealer who hid a million dollar treasure chest somewhere in the mountain West. He wrote a poem with nine clues to find it. This is what I wanted to do for Missing Season 2. Spend my days in the wilderness treasure hunting. Instead, someone found the chest, Fenn died, and I ended up in New York at the height of COVID, sifting through 9/11 photos. Frank tells me intriguing stories, including one about people he knows who found treasure in the Oregon Mountains, O-R-G-A-N, in New Mexico. They found a partially concealed mine in the Oregon Mountains. And once they unsealed it and went back into the back end of it, there was stacked up silver bars and Spanish armor in the back. Frank's Zoom background is the site where a UFO allegedly crashed near Roswell in 1947. Did you ever find any piece of it?

I have got probably 30 or 40 fragments of metal that have come from out there. Some of it's been analyzed and it comes back as being anomalous. I tell Frank that these shows, Missing in Alaska on 9/11 in Arizona, are Gothic treasure hunts, a plane carrying two congressmen, a doctor who vanished in New York the night before 9/11, a familicidal fugitive. What drives Frank? What drives me? It's that innate curiosity that is in almost everybody. What's at the top of the mountain? Well, we climb Everest because we want to go to the top of it. We explore space, we go to the moon. It's in our nature to look for things. It's just there to explore. Including caves, which feel like a final refuge from our digital age. Voids to explore, blank spaces to give us some meaning, any meaning. In a day and age where it feels like there isn't a lot of exploration to do, it's something that is a little bit of a pioneer spirit, because even when we're saturated with satellites and cameras and drones and maps and topo this and topo that and history and photos, there are caves that are undiscovered, and it's got to be absolutely exhilarating to discover something new that you're either the first person or the first person in a very long time to go into.

There are undiscovered caves. There are many things that need to be explored. The exploration days are not over yet. As our interview winds down, Frank has a surprise. He tells me about another cave near the Forerunner spot. Number 5, Columbine. I get excited, but- It's full of water. There's no way that you could even camp out in that thing. We were water up to our armpits in that thing. I kept thinking we were going to drown, but no. And it was ice cold. Not habitable. A dead end. I'm Jess Cossabeto, executive producer of the hit Netflix documentary series, Dancing for the Devil: The 7M TikTok Cult. And I'm Clea gray, former member of 7M Films and Chicana Church. And we're the host of the new podcast, Forgive Me For I Have Followed. Episode. Together, we'll be diving even deeper into the unbelievable stories behind 7M Films and LA Bay Chicana Church, an alleged cult that has impacted members for over two decades. Jessica and I will delve into the hidden truths between high control groups and interview dancers, church members, and others whose lives and careers have been impacted, just like mine. Through powerful in-depth interviews with former members and new chilling first-hand accounts, the series will illuminate untold and extremely necessary perspectives.

Forgive Me For I Have Followed will be more than an exploration. It's a vital revelation aimed at ensuring these types of abuses never happen again. Listen to Forgive Me For I Have Followed on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Hey, I'm Gianna Pradenti. And I'm Jemai Jackson-Gadston. We're the host of Let's Talk Offline, a new podcast from LinkedIn News and iHeartPodcasts. When you're just starting out in your career, you have a lot of questions. Like, how do I speak up when I'm feeling overwhelmed. Or, Can I negotiate a higher salary if this is my first real job? Girl, yes. Each week, we answer your unfiltered work questions. Think of us as your work besties you can turn to for advice. And if we don't know the answer, we bring in experts who do, like Resume Specialist, Morgan Sanner. The only difference between the person who doesn't get the job and the person who gets the job is usually who applies. Yeah, I think a lot about that quote. What is it? You miss 100% of the shots you never take. Yeah, rejection is scary, but it's better than you rejecting yourself.

Together, we'll share what it really takes to thrive in the early years of your career without sacrificing your sanity or sleep. Listen to Let's Talk offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. I'm Kari Champion, and this is season four of Naked Sports, where we live at the intersection of sports and culture. Up first, I explore the making of a rivalry. Kaitlyn Clarke versus Angel Rees. I know I'll go down to history. People are talking about women's basketball just because of one single game. Every great player needs a foil. I ain't really near them. Why is that? I just come here to play basketball every single day, and that's what I focus on. From college to the pros, Clark and Rees have changed the way we consume women's sports. Angel Rees is a joy to watch. She is unapologetically Black. I love her. What exactly ignited this fire? Why has it been so good for the game? And can the fanfare surrounding these two supernovas be sustained? This game is only going to get better because the talent is getting better. This new season will cover all things sports and culture.

Listen to Naked Sports on the Black Effect podcast Network, iHeard Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. The Black Effect podcast network is sponsored by Diet Coke. We're just days away from our 2024 iHeard Radio Music Festival, preceded by Capital One. The biggest headliners in live music will be taking over T-Mobile Arena, Las Vegas. Plus some special surprises and moments you are not going to want to miss. Stream only on Hulu. The iHeartRadio Music Festival. And listen on iHeartRadio. The most anticipated live music event of the year. This Friday and Saturday, starting at 10:30 PM Eastern, 7:30 Pacific. Hey, everybody. This is Matt Rogers. And Bowen Yang. We've got some exciting news for you. You know we're always bringing you the best guests, right? Well, this week we're taking it to the next level. The one, the only Katherine Han is joining us on Lost Culture East. That's right. The queen of comedy herself. Get ready for a conversation that's as hilarious as it is insightful. Tune in for all the laughs, the stories, and of course, the culture. I feel some I'm going to burn harder than you. Oh, my God.

I would love it. I have to watch Lost. Oh, you have to. No, I know. I'm so behind. Katherine Han can say. I'm really good at karaoke. What's your Yeah, what's your song? Oh, I love a ballad. I felt Bjork's music, and I just was like, who is this person? I got to Hawk this slalom, Loogie. My I had Hawk, the Slalom. I absolutely love it. It was somehow Shakespearean when you said it. It was somehow gorgeous. Yee, my fuck, you haul them. Listen to Las Culturistas on Will Farrell's Big Money Players Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. If you like this show, please download our first two seasons, Missing in Alaska and Missing on 9/11. For updates, visit neon33. Com or follow me on Twitter @jonwalzack, J-O-N-W-A-L-C-Z-A-K. Thanks for listening. My initial plan is to search the Fisher caves using autonomous aerial drones. Then I have trouble finding the caves. I don't want to damage them. They're illegal issues. The technology isn't there yet. And regardless, it's expensive. We are, as I've said before, but a humble podcast. There are so many hurdles. It's dark, dusty, narrow, all kinds of geometry, and you have to figure out, Where do I go?

How do I to stay safe and do all this without a human. Sebastian Sher is an associate professor at Carnegie Mellon University's Robotics Institute. He was part of a team that participated in something called the Darpa Subterráne Challenge, sponsored by the US Defense Department. The goal was to explore underground spaces and find objects in those spaces, such as people. The idea is that before you send any first responders in, can you see what you have ahead of you in a safe way? One day in the near future, police might unleash a sworn of drones into a cave to search for a fugitive or a missing spelunker. Yet for now, nothing beats an old-fashioned boots on the ground approach. Let me reintroduce you to... Hi, Dave Decker. I'm the owner and Principal Geologist at Southwest Geophysical Consulting out of Albuquerque, New Mexico. Hi, my name is Garret Jorgensen Olage. I've been working for a Southwest geophysical since 2018. We hired Dave and Garret to help us search two caves, Apex and Redman. Part of this is just for fun. What an absurd job I have. I tell friends I'll be off the grid in Arizona in a cave hunting for the bones of a killer.

However, it is also a legitimate search for clues. We're hunting for guns, bullets, tobacco tins, keys. Our plan is not only to search the caves, but also to map them with LiDAR, scan for other caves using a drone, and metal detect around the forerunner's spot. So in November 2023, I fly back to Phoenix, as do the Pauls. Paul Deckert, our executive producer, and Paul Gemperline, our fan-turned researcher. The Pauls and I meet Dave and Garret at the forerunner's spot. I tell Dave he looks like Gary Senece. He seems mildly offended, which I don't get. The next day, he explains, he thought I was talking about Gary Busey. This is our plan. Day one, explore and map, apex and Redman. Day two, metal detect and fly the drone. To start, we get a safety briefing. Okay, so always want a good quality helmet with a chin strap. Don't wear a construction helmet with a rubber band. Not going to work if a rock falls off the ceiling and hits your head because the first rock is going to knock the helmet off, the second rock is going to crush your as well. Once you're around the cave entrance, the cave entrance tends to be the location where most rockfall actually does occur.

So try to be pretty careful when you're at the cave entrance. That's also where most critters hang out. So snakes, coyotes, ringtail cats, raccoons, any Every number of wild animals use cave entrances and the first inner room of a cave as shelter. So that's where you're most likely going to run into them. So just be aware of that and be expecting it so when the raccoon comes flying out at you or the owl comes flying out at you, you don't get startled, step backwards and fall off a cliff. One time in a cave entrance, Garrett came face to face with a bear. Start to crawl in, look up, and it's about as close as we are. Just looking at me there. I'm like, Oh, shit. I start to back out, and then I stand up, and I hear it bolt. So I Oh, fuck. It's charging me. So the cave entrance is backed up against the cliff face. I don't remember climbing it. It's about 12 feet high. I just remember the next thing I was up on top of it, scaled the rock. And then from there, I did jog to my group. Because at that point, I'm like, Okay, it probably can't get to me up that sheer rock.

It might get tight in the cave, Dave says. It feels like Mother Earth's giving you a hug if you're into that thing. I am. I like it. I like the feeling of being in a rock chamber, surrounded by rock on all sides. But some people don't like that, and they start to panic. Remain calm. In case someone does get injured, the first risk is going to be hypothermia, not moving around. 40 degrees. Environment becomes very cold, very fast. It's important to bring. Extra water, extra food, extra light, redundancy. It's just good to emphasize how isolated the environment is. It may seem obvious, but we're becoming more dependent on these technologies that just don't work underground. No Google Maps, no satellite, no GPS, no radio, no cell signal. What you have on your person and what your teammates have is all you got down there, and there's no way to get in contact with the surface. Treat critters, snakes, spiders, bats, respectfully. It's their home. Don't break off decoration, stalactites, and stalagmites. Be careful with any sign of human activity. The footprints that you see in there could be a thousand years old. The charcoal that you see along the path might actually be from Native Americans that were exploring the cave.

And with that, the descent. We climb down in the sink to the entrance into apex, a small hole in the ground, a jagged cavity in the Earth that even light struggles to enter. There's blood on the rock in here. Oh, human? No, I'm sure it's just a game, like Something killed something. I'm throwing it in there. Oh, okay. It's scary. But it does go. It goes into a small room right over here. Look up. That's big enough to turn around in. Can you tell how fresh the blood is? No, I can't tell. We're off to a good start. This thing. Garrett goes first, then Paul Gemperline, then me. I slither forward, constricted, dirt below, rock above. It's very, very tight. This is the first cave I've ever been in, had to crawl on our stomachs just to get into the entrance, and then you drop down, and it's very tight. The front room is barely big enough for two people. Paul Gemperline and I crouched down. Garrett is ahead somewhere scoping a route. To go any further, I have to drop into cramped hole, crawl forward, double back, drop down again. And this is just the start.

Remember, police thought this cave was so tight and treacherous, they didn't even attempt to enter it. We've already made it further than the SWAT team. I debate moving on. I want to push myself. I want color for the show. But I don't want to navigate the winding hermetic belly of this rock beast. I feel suffocated, only 10 feet in. I choose not to proceed. Unlike me, Paul Gemperline isn't phased. Another day, another cave. I give him my recorder. Yeah, I'm not going to mess with the settings. I clicked it and it's got a red light and it's recording, I'm pretty sure. If you need to, just shove in your pocket or whatever. Yeah, I'll try to not destroy it. I exit. Dave enters. Hey, Paul, I'm coming in right behind it. All right. Paul Deca and I stand in the sink. Dave made the off-hand comment. He said, Unless Fisher was an experienced caver, I doubt he would have gone in here. Yeah, it's extremely tight. So yes, he is known to have gone into caves occasionally, but he definitely wasn't professional. So we are with two people who do this professionally and somebody who's done it extensively, recreationally.

Paul and I have never been in a cave before. I've now been in a cave about 10 feet in. This is extremely tight. The idea that you would crawl in here with a big pack full of supplies and survive for weeks in a labyrinth of tunnels, I mean, maybe somewhere else. But the only reason you would crawl into this cave is either to explore it for fun or to die, not to hide out here. It's very claustrophobic. It's very tight. I doubt he was I've ever in it before. It's not one that people really know widely. My nerves are a little up, even from crawling on my stomach through the entrance. The entrance itself, this is the first cave I've ever been in in my life, is very tight. I think even if you want to die by suicide, you're not going to be like, I want to call into this miserably claustrophobic little cave. We're in a beautiful forest. Paul and I are down in the sink, but you look up top and it's very pretty, and we're looking up at the trees and it's still sunny, and it's the entrance of a dark little hole here.

For a while, we hear voices grow weaker then vanish. Hey, Garrett, can you hear me? Yeah, what's up? I'm coming through this triangle part. Do you do head first? Yeah. Okay. This is like a hands and knees crawl. I'm talking just to myself here. Sorry. It's like a long tunnel, almost like what a drug runner would use or something, like a drug runner tunnel. Oh, this is cool. Oh, Yeah, that opened up. Yeah, that's... Do you have a camera on you? On my phone. Yeah, we had a tunnel that was pretty long. I don't know, 50. How long you think that tunnel was, Garrett? I'm bad at that. Probably 150, 200 feet. 150, 200 feet tunnel. Now it has opened up to a room that you could fit a small Like a business jet. You could fit a business jet in here if you could get it down here. It's not flat, but it's very rocky, and there's some rock in the center of it, but it is big and open for sure. You just walked this ridge here? Yeah. Okay. It does look pretty vertical. Oh, my gosh. Yeah, that goes down 40, 50 feet or something.

Yeah, very slick. Now, Dave has to turn around. Yeah. I think this is about as far as I'm going to go. My shoulders are starting to bug me. Garrett and Paul press on. Hey, since it's the two of us, well, you know what to do. But if you fall, should I immediately go to the surface? Yeah, go get somebody. Okay. 45 minutes later. Hello? Yeah, we're coming out here in just a couple of minutes. Paul and Garet made it 1,000 feet into the cave, 100 feet below the surface. Apex is much bigger than we anticipated, including a chamber maybe-30 wide, 20 high, and 80 long. So I'd have to fit a bus in, but not flat, but a decent size. It's irregularly shaped, so it's a little hard to give estimates. Oh, wow. That's huge compared to what you would imagine. That's so cool. Wow. And now the register is in this room and it says, Welcome. The last time anyone signed the register, a scrap of paper coiled into a piece of PVC pipe was February eighth, 2023, 10 months earlier. By judging at the register, people would put their in and sign out time on the register.

People would spend anywhere from 2 to 6 hours beyond that point. So I'm going to guess that's just the start of the cave. It's pretty sizable. Neither Gareth nor Paul saw any sign of Fisher or anyone for that matter, save for the register. By now, it's late afternoon. The sun sinks, the forest dims. We navigate south through the woods to Redman Cave. At first, we can't find it. We reach a barbed wire fence, a boundary between between the Tonto National Forest and the Fort Apache Indian Reservation, and turn around. As twilight soaks the forest. Okay. This looks a little bit more inviting. I spot something 50 feet from the cave. There's what looks to be a headstone. Why is there a grave there? It's very old. I mean, it's not modern. It's not recent. We try to read its weathered letters. Jay. Jay something. Redman. I don't know who Jay Redman is, but this is his cave, and this is his grave. Nothing says not haunted, like entering a little cave near a grave in the woods. Cave near the grave. Okay, John, focus. Lingering is a luxury we can't afford. It's not the sun that matters.

We are, after all, descending into darkness with headlamps and flashlights. But we have call-out times. If our loved ones and producers don't hear from us, they're supposed to call the police. So chop, chop. It's 5:15 PM. The sun's going down, and I'm standing in the entrance of a cave about to crawl underground on my knees through a little gate into the cave. Redman is immediately more inviting than apex, but I still have to slither in. Yeah, this is very different. I squeeze through a metal gate. This is not bad. Yeah, it was Actually, it has an opening at the top of it. Let's go. Paul, it's up to you. Don't feel obligated, okay? It's not too bad. I'm okay with it, but it's a little tight. You'll have to get on your stomach. It's not nearly as bad as the other one, though. Then it's walking past that, so it's pretty easy over here. Wow, this is so cool. Redman opens up into walkable tunnels, maybe seven feet tall, four feet wide. Okay, This is, I feel better. This is cozy. The reason I'm stopped here and what I want to show you guys is you had to ask me a question about how caves form.

This particular cave is actually a really good example. Look in the ceiling right here, you see this crack? You'll see that it goes all the way down. That was the original crack that this cave formed along. Water was seeping through here, so it actually started to dissolve the rock at this location. Onward. There's some crickets right there. There are spiders. I sign the register. Again, Garret is ahead of us. He finds the sump, the flooded passage at the back of the cave. Only problem, it's down a 40-foot drop. Garret, you know that somebody died in the sump, yeah? What's that? Somebody drowned in the sump? This one? Yeah. Really? Mm-hmm. In 2001. Four hundred feet in, we pause briefly. Look like a cozy place to hide out as a future, dude? Honestly, yes. I like this cave way more than the other one. Sadly, though, this is the end for us. To proceed, we'd need climbing gear and more experience. Time to go. On the way out, Dave points to… Bat, Scott. This is back on. Okay. So this is probably one of the roosts. Okay, I'm calling out. We exit into night, a black forest.

Hike to our cars, drive to Payson, an hour West, check into hotels, grab dinner. The next morning, we return. Back to the woods. It's sunny and cool. We've been sent good weather. Praise be. Garret shows us the LiDAR scan he took of Redman. Last night, after we exited, he scurried around like a hobbit, crouched over with fancy equipment, building a 3D model. It's colorful and fascinating. Here's that final bend that it does 90 degrees. Then we stopped up here where it started dropping down into the lower level. Okay, you can see it. I pointed it over it so you can see the floor of that. Then from there, the sump would be right here because it takes another 90-degree bend. Amazing. Today is all about technology. We want to use a drone mounted thermal camera to scan for hidden caves. In cold weather, Cave entrances vent insulated air to the surface, contrasting visually on screens with the land around them. Sadly, though, it's too warm. We're limited to an eyes-only search. As Garrett pilots the drone. We're going to the forerunner spot with the metal detector, and we're going to work our way out and see what we find towards the road and then also towards the cave.

A metal detector might seem basic, but I think it's the most promising technology we have. To my knowledge, no one ever metal detected the forerunner spot. We could find keys or a pistol or a pot of gold. How deep can it detect? This one, about 18 inches. By golly, Ms. Molly, we got a hit. It was detecting my steel tow boots. We find any gold who lays ownership. Probably Forest Service. He was like, What? I was like, What? Man, this is all over the place. We went like six inches and we're getting results. Not keys. Got it. It's a bullet, 22. Right where the driver's side door the forerunner would have been. That's a fired bullet. It's hit something. It's mushroomed out. Wow. Okay. It's very interesting for that to be-Right there. Yeah. He's like, Hey, let's put it in the sun so you can see it. It's literally the place his foot would have stepped getting out of the car. Don't get too excited. Looks like another bullet casing. It's exploded. Beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep. Got another bullet here. Here a bullet, there a bullet, everywhere a bullet. This is the forest after all.

This is America after all. Basically, what I've learned is all the forest land is just littered with bullets everywhere. Even areas that look pristine. Looking at the surface, there's not garbage or trash or litter here. It's pretty pristine and clean. It's not like this is a random location, though. No, it's a campsite right here. There's a fire, there's a cave, especially the cave because there's a million other campsites. Well, I think the point is more like in your pristine natural area that looks clean right below the surface is littered with bullets everywhere. We find so many 22s. We're jaded at this point. Bullets, bullets everywhere. It only takes about an hour to get pretty jaded. And not a clue. Paul went from like, videotape this. Flags. It's a clue. So I'm like, eh. It sounds a little better. A little bigger, a little better. Any idea? I'm going to ask you every time, but any idea? 38. Really? That's the gun that's missing. First one was a 22, but the gun for sure that we know was missing of his was a 38. This very of it was known. Got it. What do we got here?

38. So it's been fired because it's not in its casing or it's been taken out of its casing. It did not hit anything before it fell to Earth. So this was fired and just fell? Yep. Didn't hit anything. It didn't hit any trees, didn't hit any people. It's in good shape, I mean. That one, you could get forensics off of this. The rifling inside a barrel, you could get info off that one. We find it in the dry wash, the seasonal creek bed, not far from the forerunner's spot. What are the odds it's Robert Fisher's? 0.001%? Regardless, on the off chances of forensic value, I'm happy to turn it over to law enforcement. Moving on, we find rusty cans, barbed wire, a wrench, only 15 feet from the forerunner's spot, and, of course, bullets. Which is no longer of interest to me. I'm dead inside. And a bolt, which isn't somehow the more interesting thing these days. A bolt, B-O-L-T. An exhilarating bolt. Make it stop. Please, no more. We were finding so many 22 casings, and And what was the other one, Dave? 177. 177 casings that we actually got tired of finding them.

And with our limited time and resources, moved on. As Dave and the Pauls poke around, I wander out far into the woods alone. This is the real joy to disconnect an adventure, a soundtrack of wind. Peace. A few hours later, Dave and Garret have to leave. But first, one final beep. Under a bush, next to where the forerunner was parked. And now they really have to go. They have to drive back to Albuquerque. Dave gives us a crowbar. This is our final hope. So we claw the dirt, maniacally, with the crowbar in our bare hands. Story of my life. Dig, dig, dig, find nothing, continue digging. Make a judgment call to when to stop digging. I'm burned and exhausted. I guess I have to stop digging. Next time on Missing in Arizona. It's interesting to think that he could have another family. He absolutely could, and probably does, to be honest. You can reach us by phone at 1833-NewTips. That's 1833-639-8477. By email at tips@iheartmedia. Com, T-I-P-S at iheartmedia. Com, online at neon33. Com, or on Twitter @johnwalzack, J-O-N-W-A-L-C-Z-A-K. Paul Decken is our executive producer. Chris Brown is our supervising producer. Hannah Rose-Schneider is our producer.

Paul Gemperline is our researcher. Ben Bolen is a consulting producer. And I'm your host and executive producer, John Walsh. Special thanks to Wolfgain Think. Additional production support provided by Ben Hackett. Cover art by Pam Peacock. Neon 33 logo designed by Derek Rudy. Our intro song is Utopia by Ruby Cube. Please download the first two Seasons of Our Show, Missing in Alaska and Missing on 9/11. And if you're so inclined, give us a five-star rating. Missing in Arizona is a coproduction of iHeartRadio and Neon 33. Hey, I'm Giana Pradenti. And I'm Jemai Jackson-Gadston. We're the host of Let's Talk Offline from LinkedIn News and iHeartPodcasts. There's a lot to figure out when you're just starting your career. That's where we come in. Think of us as your work besties you can turn to for advice. And if we don't know the answer, we bring in people who do, like negotiation expert Mori Teheri Pour. If you start thinking about negotiations as just a conversation, then I think it eases us a little bit. Listen to Let's Talk Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. I'm Kari Champion, and This is season 4 of Naked Sports.

Up first, I explore the making of a rivalry, Kaitlyn Clarke versus Angel Reece. Every great player needs a foil. I know I'll go down in history. People are talking about women's basketball just because of one single game. Clarke and Reece have changed the we consume women's sports. Listen to the making of a rivalry, Kaitlyn Clarke versus Angel Reece on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Presented by Elfbeauty, founding partner of iHeartWomen's Sports. I'm Kari Champion, and this is season four of Naked Sports. Up first, I explore the making of a rivalry, Kaitlyn Clarke versus Angel Reece. People are talking about women's basketball just because of one single game. Clarke and Reece have changed the way we consume women's basketball. All. And on this new season, we'll cover all things sports and culture. Listen to Naked Sports on the Black Effect podcast Network, iHeartRadio apps, or wherever you get your podcast. The Black Effect podcast Network is sponsored by Diet Coke. I'm Jess Acivedo, executive producer of the hit Netflix documentary series, Dancing for the Devil: The 7M TikTok Cult. And I'm Clea gray, former member of 7M Films and Chicana Church.

And we're the host of the new podcast, Forgive Me For I Have Followed. Together, We'll be diving even deeper into the unbelievable stories behind 7M Films and Shoshana Church. Listen to Forgive Me For I Have Followed on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Hey, everybody. This is Matt Rogers. Bowen Yang, we've got some exciting news for you. You know we're always bringing you the best guest, right? Well, this week we're taking it to the next level. The one, the only, Katherine Han is joining us on Lost Culture East. That's right. The queen of comedy herself. Get ready for a conversation that's as hilarious as it is insightful. Tune in for all the laughs, the stories, and of course, the culture. Don't miss Katherine Han on Las Culturistas. Listen to Las Culturistas on Will Farrell's Big Money Players Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.