Hello, friends. Welcome back to the show. My guest today is Dan Bilzerian. He's an entrepreneur and a professional poker player. What would it be like to dedicate yourself to hedonism for an entire decade without any budget or time or resource constraints? What would you discover from doing every adventure imaginable in the modern world? And what would you truly value once it was over? Expect to learn where Dan has been for the last few years, whether his company ignite, actually went bankrupt. If Dan is still rich, why he's trying monogamy. What happens when you lock yourself on an island with 100 women? Dan's advice for all men on how to be more attractive, the biggest pitfalls that men make when posting on social media, how to stop being intimidated by hot women and much more. Dan has an interesting arc. Doesn't matter whether you like him or hate him, the guy is non typical. He is a non fungible human, and there are not many of them around. And I think that there's an awful lot that we can learn from observing somebody who goes to the absolute extreme of anything, whether it's in athletics or lifestyle or finance or asceticism.

There's a lot of lessons to take away from today. I really hope that you enjoy this one. Also, don't forget, the next couple of weeks. I've got the biggest guests we've ever had coming onto modern wisdom. I've got Alex Hormozi, Eric Weinstein, Robert Greene, Doctor Andrew Hughman, all coming up over the next few weeks. And the only way that you can ensure you will not miss those episodes is by hitting subscribe. So navigate to Apple podcasts or Spotify and press the follow button in the middle of the page or the plus in the top right hand corner. I thank you very much. But now, ladies and gentlemen, please welcome Dan Bilzerian. Happened to you? Where did you go?

You mean on the last, like, four things I flaked on or for the last two years?

Pick. Pick whichever you want.

Well, you know, I kind of pulled out a little bit when I did the book, right? That was like two years and then came back pretty strong for like a year, I was going back into the whole thing. And it was funny because when I did the book, I realized that the whole hedonism thing wasn't really my bag and just wasn't making me happy. So I came to that realization, much like I came to the realization that money didn't make me happy and then still chase fucking money for a long time. But, yeah, I just. I kind of wanted to get off the hedonistic treadmill. And I came back after the book. I mean, there's a lot of, like, people that were talking shit and whatever, and I kind of did it a little bit for ignite and also just because I was kind of bored and Covid was over. But I definitely realized after going, you know, I did. What was it? I did France and then we did South Africa, did South America. I did Dubai. Kind of like a, you know, whole tour. Maldives. And then I did Thailand. I just realized, like, I didn't want to travel around with fucking twelve girls everywhere that I went.

And I didn't want to dedicate my whole life to my sex addiction. So that was just the end of it.

Why? Why didn't you want that? What were you believing previously? That you sort of disillusioned yourself of, um.

Well, the belief part of it. I would say that pleasure will make you happy and that hedonism was the answer. And that if I got a ton of pussy and had a bunch of money and did all this stuff, that that would make me happy. And it did. It was fun. Like, don't get me wrong, it was fun to fuck hot girls and do all that stuff, but I just went to the edge of the earth with it. And I think there was a point. I mean, there's definitely a point. I was on a yacht, 300 foot yacht, 30 girls. And I'm just like, I should be stoked. And I wasn't. And, like, my energy was being sucked in a bunch of different directions. I just remember just being way happier. Surfing with my buddies, doing a couple vacation. Like, all the stuff that I'd kind of done before ignite. So I think 2012 till 2016 was probably the craziest. That was like the fucking Motley crue rockstar. Like, drug sex and rock and roll. Like, that was it. I became famous. It was like chicks were fucking me in bathrooms. It was just the crazy shit and it was new and it was fun.

And I did that. I did that for a long time. And then I got a girlfriend in, like, 16, and I was just, like I said, much happier. Doing the couple vacations, surfing. The guys who do the guy shit would work out during the day and then play cards, whatever. I could fuck my girlfriend at night. There was no distractions, no stress, no headaches, no bullshit. And I was just like, fuck, you know, this is much better. And then I decided to ignite because I just kind of didn't want to be taking pictures in parking lots for the next fucking 30 years with every asshole that came out to me and not have, like, something to show for.

Monetize the audience in some way.

I just felt like I should build a brand. I should just do something with it. And so it was. And also, I. I don't know. I was watching tv, I think it was, like, 2017, and they said weed was becoming legal or weed was legal, and I was like, fuck, this is perfect. I smoke a lot of weed. A lot of people wouldn't want to space. Let me do this. And so I decided to launch ignite. And when we did that, it was just everything I'd done before on steroids.

Now you've got a capitalist justification. You got a commercial reason to go.

And, you know, we'd raise $100 million. It was like, you know, fucking.

It was just gotta make it work.

Let's go do it. You know, let's just do it stronger than anybody's ever done it. Let's, you know, kind of, like, do a modern version of Playboy. And it was just kind of. I don't know, it was just like all the stuff that I kind of wanted to do when I was younger. Like, I. You know, I wanted to fucking be like the new Hugh Hefner. I want to do all that stuff. And I did that, and it was fun, you know, the million dollar parties to travel in the world, all the stuff. But I was already kind of over it from the realization that I was happier having a girlfriend than doing the harem thing. And now I'm doing the harem thing on, like, a fucking crazy scale with, like, a hundred girlfriends and all this shit. And. Yeah, I just. But I. But then I felt kind of trapped because now I had a brand, and now I kind of had to do it, and it was also. Covid saved me a little bit.

This is the difference between being homeless and going camping. Right. One is sort of mandated upon you, and the other one is a choice that you get to make.

Yeah. And it's a lot more fun when it's your choice. You know, you're doing the same thing, but if you're choosing to do it, it's different.

How big of a difference was that? Sort of framing the fact that previously, this was adventurous, it was on your timeline, there was no degree of pressure for you to be able to do it. And then you come back and you go, this feels like a job, even though it's the least job looking job that ever did. Job.

Yeah, it was kind of crazy. I think it was more because I was over it than because I had to do it.

So you're like a punch drunk boxer getting back in the ring for one last go?

Kind of. And I also felt, like an obligation to do it because we had built the company and done all this stuff. I don't know. I was kind of a slave to my own creation for a while. And then Covid almost saved me a little bit, I guess, because then I took the two years and wrote the book and zoomed out, looked at my life and things that made me happy, things that didn't make me happy, and that was pretty eye opening.

Was there an overarching lesson from that? Obviously. You said I preferred this thing, which was one girl, and spending a bit of time with my friends. Was there, like, deeper insight than just admin? To wrangle a squadron of chicks is kind of a bit of a hard day's work.

Well, it wasn't even so much that it was hard, but it was just spending time doing things that I didn't care about. That was a part of it. And then the big realization was the pleasure, you know, and how it functions like a drug and how you need more of it to, you know, get the same high, and then eventually you have to do it to not feel like shit, that whole thing. So, um, yeah, I just, you know, I just beat all my addictions when I was writing my book. I beat my sex addiction, my gambling addiction, my weed addiction, which was actually one of the harder ones to beat. And then. Yeah, and then I kind of, like, went back into all that stuff and then kind of beat it again. And I think when you beat it a second time, just like, okay, like, you know, we got, like, enough, you know?

And where have you landed now? What's life like for you now?

Well, I spent the last two years working on this course, and I spent, you know, a decent amount of time developing this new supplement product line and just hanging my friends. Like, I play paintball. I, you know, work out. I fucking mountain bike. I just. I do shit with my boys, and I don't hang out with a bunch of girls all the fucking time.

And what about that differential in the hedonic set point water line between sort of where you were and where you are? We all know what it kind of feels like to maybe be in a. Everyone's been on holiday and had peak experiences and then had to go back to their sort of normal existence, and they go, oh, my God. You know, this sort of feels a bit gray and a bit dull. What was that deceleration like?

I would imagine it would be like quitting heroin. Maybe I was, like, the one drug I didn't do. But, yeah, I think it's tough, you know? You ever seen the gambling show Oni Mahoney? The movie?

No.

So it's true story about this guy, and he's a fucking huge gambling addict, and he makes about $20,000 a year. And at one point in the movie, he's embezzled so much money from his bank that he's betting 70,000 a hand on baccarat. And he's, like, $5 million in debt, driving, like, a $3,000 car. And he's married, and his wife has no idea. And then he ends up winning, like, $10 million so he could pay off the four or 5 million and literally be set for life. And this is in the eighties when a million dollars was enough, and he ends up losing it all back, every dollar, and goes to jail. And it's funny because they had an interview afterwards, and they asked him, they said, on a scale of one to 100, what would you rate your highest thrill in life? And he's like, gambling. And he goes, 100. And they said, outside of gambling, what's the greatest thrill you've ever had in your entire life? He's like, I think about a 20, and the guy's like, how do you feel about living at a 20 for the rest of your life? And I think when you do Max pleasure seeking, it's tough because you kind of numb yourself, even in that moment.

I remember having breakfast with my buddy, and he's like, you know, oh, what'd you do yesterday? And, you know, it's like, oh, you know, fuck four chicks or fuck five chicks or, you know, whatever it was. And it was just like, it wasn't even like, it's kind of like telling me eight Cheerios. It was just, like, zero emotion. None of it like, it didn't. You know, it was just kind of the course of the day. And I think that kind of goes back to the whole. You just get used to whatever your baseline is. And I just set, like, such a crazy baseline of what normal was that. I don't know anything other than that. Like, absolute overstimulation is going to feel like a little bit of a void. But I think at the end of the day, look, I got to the end of the earth with it. And if you go to the end of the earth with something and it's not enough, then it's never going to be enough.

There's a diary entry from Elton John. It might be the best diary entry of all time. He says, woke up, watched grandstand, wrote candle in the wind, went to London, bought Rolls Royce. Ringo Starr, came for dinner. That was entire reentry.

I could see that. It's just like. And it's probably like. And for him, there was probably no emotion with any of that stuff. It was just like, yeah, that's the course of my day.

How important is it in order to be able to say, it's the classic rich man telling you that money won't buy you happiness? How important was it for you to sort of push that limit and take the cable car to the top of the hedonism mountain? Is there any shortcut? Could you have seen these things were not going to make me happy without having to go through kind of the trenches of getting there?

Absolutely not. I had to do it. I had to burn my hand on the stove over and over again.

Think about this all the time, right? So there's two types of lessons. Bill, mutual friend, good example of this. 2d lessons and 3d lessons. Reading die with zero. 2d lesson. Listening to the audiobook, even listening to him on a podcast, like a two and a half d lesson. Going to Bill's house and seeing his dialed in system and the chef and the wake surfing and all the rest of it. 3d lesson.

I gave him that stuff, by the way, the chef, the wake surfer, and he fought me on the wake surfing for like, ten years.

You designed Bill Perkins. I understand. It's like a mixed race, fucking, like, version of you. My point being that there's so many things that you want to be able. The whole personal development industry is based on, I don't need to do this thing. I can learn it through somebody else. What's that quote about? Like, any idiot can learn from their mistakes. I prefer to learn from the mistakes of others. And what I'm fascinated by are these kind of champagne challenges that are ones that you can only learn the lessons of by actually doing them.

Well, there's a caveat to that. I think. For me personally, I had to learn them myself. But I don't know if everybody else is wired like that. And I also think that if there was a guy like me that told me, I might have listened, you know, like, if Hugh Hefner would have told me, I might have listened. My dad told me, go fuck yourself, you know, because he didn't fucking do it. Like, he didn't fuck thousands of girls. He didn't go down this road. Like, he doesn't know. So he can give me his theory, which is kind of like the whole dating space. My biggest issue with the dating space, there's a lot of, like, theory. These guys haven't done it to the point that I've done it and they haven't, like, absolutely figured it out. It's kind of like poker. Like in the beginning of poker there was a lot of theory. Like, we all had ideas of what we thought was the best thing and like, then ten years later, like, the best of us all got together and we agreed on a lot of things and when the quantum supercomputer solved it, we were just wrong.

We're just dead wrong about a lot of things that every fucking of the best player thought was for sure the answer. We're just wrong, you know, and I think that's true in dating and I think there's a lot of guys out there that think that they're right and a lot of these female dating coaches then are just fucking wrong.

You've got this quote that says achieving the result is never as good as what you think it's going to feel like. And Tate says something not too dissimilar, which is having things isn't fun. Getting things is fun.

Yeah, I agree with his quote, actually, more than I agree with my quote because it's kind of in line with, like, the journey is more rewarding than like the top of the mountain, you know? And that was the mistake that I made is it was just like, how do I race to the top of the mountain? Not like how do I enjoy each part of this journey? And the journey is where it's at. Like, it's not about like being at the peak, it's about like, okay, you know, here we are, 3000ft. Like the view is fucking great. Here we are, 5000ft. The views better. You know, here we are at 7000ft. The view is better. For me it was just like top, top, top, top. Get to the top. It's like, okay, views, cool. Like what's the next mount? You know, and I so I didn't get any of the enjoyment of the climb really because I was so, like, I don't know, just fixated on getting there as fast as possible. I think sometimes just enjoying the journey and like taking a breath and, you know, and being thankful for, you know, the climb that you've made so far I think is more rewarding than just even getting to the end because a lot of times you don't even get to the end, but it doesn't matter because you enjoy the process and the journey.

You know, we can talk in pithy aphorisms all day. Tactically, how are you helping yourself to take more pleasure in the journey? I think a lot of people feel like this, maybe without having to fuck a thousand chicks, but a lot of people kind of peer over the shoulder of the present moment looking for what's coming next. You know, when I find myself doing this the most is when I'm at a comedy show. So you're waiting to get in. You're excited to get in, and then you're excited for the first guy to come on, but you're really excited for the next guy to get. And then you're really excited, and you're like, hang on. At no point am I actually enjoying the guy that's on. I'm kind of always looking past him. So what do you do? Is there anything, have you operationalized being able to enjoy the journey a little bit more? Are there any strategies that you've implemented?

I think being present, that's probably the number one thing that you could do is just be present. And I think also being present and being grateful is the answer. I mean, that's, you know, it's not that complicated, but I just think that that's the answer. It's being present and being grateful. So if you do that, then you're, by definition, enjoying the journey. You're kind of focus on where you're at and not where you're going. And I think a lot of people focus mostly on where they're going instead of enjoying where they're at. And, you know, I did the same thing.

So who would have thought that you and a meditation teacher would have arrived at the same place? So, do you remember me and you had a dinner at Bill's house? I think it might be first or second time that we met. And I wrote an insight after that, which I've wanted to talk to you about since then. So trajectory is more important than position if you're number two in the world, but last year, you were number one. That is way worse than sitting at number 150. But being on a huge upward slope from 312 months ago, there's a few reasons for this recency bias. If your value is increasing right now, that means you have to be popular at the moment. By looking at recent trajectory, you're selecting for only the people who are trendy right now, which really is all that we can remember. We can also romanticize where someone will be in future. If they're currently hot stuff, how high might they climb? Who knows? Maybe to the top, maybe even beyond the top. Humans struggle to realize that everything is temporary, including growth and decline. Instead, it's easy to label people as heroes and losers based on what we know of them right now, so we don't have to predict a messy future.

There's an old saying that there's three types of people on a ladder. One at the bottom, one at the middle, and one at the top. Which one is the best one to be? The one that's still climbing. That doesn't just work for status, but possessions, achievements, wealth, sex, everything. It's not just how we see other people, it's also how we see ourselves. We know when we're moving up or down, when life is getting better or worse. Tate said. Having things isn't fun. Getting things is fun. Another way to look at it is this. And this is what me and you spoke about. Any accomplishment is just a new, higher bar for you to get over in future. I see this in my own work. Let's say we do a new episode that hits a million plays in a day. Amazing. That's very exciting. And a new record. Wow. Also, that means that every video in future is now going to feel unimpressive until we hit 1.1 million or higher. In this way, rapid increases in success are more a curse than a blessing. So here's the theory. Slow success strategy. Even though we might want our goals and accomplishments to arrive immediately, maybe a smarter strategy is to stretch out the achievements of our dreams.

We shouldn't wish for overnight success, as we would then need to be able to beat it pretty soon, lest we feel like we're declining. Instead, slow, consistent progress is a more reliable way to maintain satisfaction. Purposefully aiming for slow success strategy may actually ensure that you always feel like you're going in the right direction.

Yeah, I like that a lot. I think it's similar to the chinese farmer parable, which is that you don't know what's good or bad. You could have instant success. You could win the lottery. But a lot of times that makes people depressed, more so after a year than losing their arm. Right. You know, sometimes people think, oh, I got a big promotion, or I want a ton of money, or I did this or did that, and they think it's great, but you don't really know until, you know, ten years, 20 years on the line, deathbed, whatever. Like, was that actually due to that? Yeah, exactly. So, I mean, I like the idea of the slow success because it's kind of like a constant climb. And I always, always said like, if I were to plot my life and I could just. If this was a simulation, I could just do whatever I wanted. It would be like, start at the absolute fucking bottom and just slow rode up, you know. But what I did is I, like, started here, went here, went here, and.

Now tried to reset it to make that not actually feel, like, there.

Yeah. And I. I said this to Bill. I actually said that I wanted to bet him or whatever. Like, I don't know, fuck. Million dollars. It was something where we would go work a regular job for like six months at Walmart or a valet. Yeah, I think he actually offered me like a million bucks to be a valethe. But it was like in the summer in Vegas for three months.

Miserable.

I should have done it, but, like, those sort of things will give you a reset. Just like when I went to boot camp, that was like a full reset because I was thankful for all the things that, you know, I took for granted. So I think having those resets is actually good. So, you know, if you were to writing a book. Yeah, yeah. I mean, something that just kind of like grounds you out and then even going to jail for like three months, you know, whatever, just some shitty experience. Because then after that it's like, you know what I mean? Like, if you were to be thrown in jail tomorrow for three months, four months, like, you might think that'd be terrible.

You spent a million bucks. I bet you could get someone to make a jail for you for three months.

I think Mister Beast. I think Mister Beast is tough to.

Be, like the most champagne homeless solution to this ever.

But yeah.

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What about the public scrutiny? You kind of mentioned it earlier on. There seemed to be a period, I can't remember when it was maybe like four or five years ago, whatever, when it just felt like people criticizing financial statements. This is where rignite is. This is actually what's going on behind the scenes. What happened with all of that and how accurate have those predictions been?

Yeah, I mean, it's funny. Like, I think it was like four years ago. They're like, you know, Dan Bozeman is going broke. Like, he's fleeing the country. He's going to jail, ignites, going bankrupt. It's like all this stuff. And it was just funny because I think I was worth like 375 million at the time or so. I was, like, worth more then than I'd almost ever been. Like, ignite was actually doing really well at that point. Like, yeah, we'd lost 50 million. But a lot of companies, they spend a lot of money on marketing. And we've done like 100 million in sales at lease every year for the last, like three or four years just in vapes alone. And so, you know, I think Uber lost like 5 billion and a quarter or something, you know, and they were, like, never profitable. I just don't think people understand companies. And we were also in the wrong space. We were doing weed in an environment where the government was, like, heavily taxing the people that are doing it legally and nobody's making money. But whatever, you know, it's like, it was one of those things where all these YouTube people were making all these, like, crazy claims and this clickbait.

And because of that, they were getting a bunch of views because, you know, you could just say whatever you want. That's the thing about a celebrity is, like, you could say whatever you want. Like, literally whatever you want, and there's no recourse. You can't really sue them. Like, at best, you could get a retraction. But, like, the legal language, unless you say that they have aids or something, you know, like, medically, you can say whatever the fuck you want. And so I was in a weird position because my videos were getting like 50 million views and my fucking stories are getting like eight to 12 million views of story and my Snapchats are getting like 3 million. So it's like, do I want to shine a light on all these fucking retards? Which is probably what they want. You know what I mean? That's why you make clickbait in the first place and address this stuff. Or do I just want to, like, focus on my book? And I just kind of, like, focus on my book and just ignored all the nonsense. But it was shocking, like, how much people believed, like, they were just like, oh.

Like, you know, Dan's going broke, and I'm just, like, fucking flying around my jet, fucking the house paid for, like, all this crazy shit, and it's like, the fuck, you know, like, I've got $4 million in watches, but I didn't, like, flex that. I didn't, like. I just didn't give a fuck. I was just like, whatever, dude. But it's funny, like, the. The. You know, the people just believe kind of, like, whatever they read and see. I think they're getting better now because of COVID and because how many times the media has lied to them, they're starting to figure it out. But I don't know. I mean, it was a weird thing. And so then that's kind of one of the reasons that I did come back a little bit. And I started posting a little bit again, because when I stopped for the book, that was kind of the time when I realized, like, you know, and reflected on my life. I was like, okay, like, I kind of don't want to do this anymore. Whatever. I. But I, you know, for the company, I was like, okay, like, you know, we'll go back and, you know, give them a quick fuck you.

And that's what I did. And then after doing that, I was like, okay, now I want to go back to, like, being a fucking normal person. But, yeah, it's. It's surprising, man. People just, you know, they'll just believe what any YouTube video says, and there's not really any regulation. I mean, if I were to make the laws, it would be that if you knowingly, like, you know, said something on a media outlet that you knew was false, there would be repercussions, but there's just not.

It's gonna be very difficult to prove that you knew that it was false as well.

Right.

I thought that the numbers worked that way. I guess it's gonna be kind of slippery, speaker one.

Yeah, yeah, I suppose so. But I think there is, like, an element of responsibility when you have a big platform. Like, you know, Piers Morgan just went crazy on fucking Tate the other day because he said something that wasn't true. It's like, where were you during, COVID when you were telling everybody else to get the fucking vaccine and all this other stuff. It's like, you know, do you fucking, you know, like condemn the media? Do you condemn this? You know, like, appears as such a fucking hypocrite. It's so funny watching him, but it's funny because there is no responsibility. Like the media doesn't have any responsibility. Like Alex Jones says something that they say is, you know, false and, and hurts people and he gets fined a billion and a half dollars and the media says a bunch of stuff that kills a bunch of people and there's no repercussions. Like how does that work? Like, at what point is there repercussions and at what point isn't there?

How did that period of life feel given that you were going through this deceleration, transition, detoxing or whatever you want to say, like rehabbing from hedonism whilst also going through this public scrutiny, whilst also there's a global pandemic which has kind of shut the world and your lifestyle down? Did that get to you?

It felt like I was going through hell. But honestly, not because of any of those reasons as much as the edit of the book. Because I did 37 fucking edits of this book. And every time I finished an edit, I was positive that it was done. And then I'd reread it and then I would start changing shit and I'd start fucking with shit. And it was just like, I just felt like I was in purgatory. I literally felt like I was in hell. Like, I felt like. I felt like every day I had like an overwhelming homework assignment that I was never gonna be able to finish and I had to go to school and fuck, you know what I mean? It was just like, like, I don't know, like school without ever getting summer break or a weekend off or whatever. Because I did it every single fucking day. I took no days off and it was like 12 hours on. I would sleep for like, whatever, 4 hours and then I would do like 8 hours, then I'd sleep for, you know, it was just like, I didn't even get like a full night's sleep.

It was just like constant. What I found is that if I worked for more than like 8 hours without sleeping, then my mind I would actually do like harm. I would do more harm than good and then had to re edit, you know, and it was just a. I don't know, it was a lot. But the crazy part is the talking shit, the fucking pandemic, all this stuff, none of it was as bad as the book quitting all the stuff. And I guess just a lack of dopamine because if you go from just having just fucking massive spikes all the time, I don't know, it's kind of like having withdrawal. I mean, you do have some kind of withdrawals. I mean, then not smoking weed. Like, and I was smoking weed every day. Like, I went a period of, like, three or four years where I never had sex without smoking weed. And I was fucking like three to four times a day, every day. I wouldn't even work out unless I was high. It was just, like, a lot of weed. And so, you know, I think your body just gets used to that.

People say that weeds not addictive, but I think it's, like, one of the most addictive things. And so that was a hard one to quit. And the sex addiction wasn't quite as hard because I did have, you know, like this, you know, hot 18 year old girl running around, like, you know, in lingerie all day, like, you know, begging me to banger. So I didn't really kind of, like, stop. And it's not like I stopped having sex, but I stopped with the craziness. But it was a tough time. You know, that was, like a pretty dark time. You know, it was like you go from this, like, top of the world, pleasure seeking, fucking dopamine spike over and over and over and over again all the time. Every time. You're the fucking man. You're the greatest thing and all this. And then, you know, like, having to deal with negativity and then also the pandemic where you can't do shit and the world's in chaos. You know, we've been never been more divided, never been more racist. Like, the country's just, like, fucking tearing itself apart. And I'm kind of, like, locked in the house and I'm doing this fucking edit.

And it was just like. It was a lot.

Just you and a word document for comfort.

Yeah, yeah. And an 18 year old in lingerie occasionally and my two cats.

You know, everything's got a silver lining. What's your approach when it comes to public scrutiny? Do you get sort of sad or riled up or does your self esteem or confidence or whatever take a hit from things like that? There's very few people that spend so much time crafting a public image to then have it be derogated rightly or wrongly or falsely or legitimately or whatever, but for that to then happen and you not feel indignation at it being wrong or you not feeling shame at it being right?

Yeah. I mean, it was one of those things where, you know, I've been famous for twelve years and, like, on a pretty large scale to where every country and every place of the world, like, people are coming up to me all the time, nonstop. And I feel like in the beginning of it, I didn't deserve it. And, like, all these people were telling me all this stuff, and I was just like, you know, I don't think I'm the greatest guy on the planet. Like, I don't think I'm, you know, fucking, like, yeah, I'm doing it, you know, but I'm also, you know, that kid that didn't get a lot of pussy in high school and whatever. And, you know, everybody's got their insecurities, so you don't feel like you deserve as much praise as you're getting. And then I got to a point where I felt like, you know, I was the fucking man. I was throwing the best parties in the fucking world. I was fucking the hottest girls. I was doing all this shit, and I have been doing it for, you know, a super fucking long time. And so maybe I do deserve it, but I don't really care.

And I think during the entire process, like, I had gotten a ton of negativity. Like, honestly, like, my biggest spikes, fame were from negative things, like throwing her off, you know, throwing a girl off the roof. Like, I just, like, I'm chucking bitches off the roof. Like, it's something to do. Like, it was like a hustler photo shoot. They asked me to fucking do it. Like, this girl, like, held onto my shirt, you know, almost fucking killed me in the process. But it wasn't my idea. It wasn't just, like, I was just randomly doing this drunk on a Tuesday because for a photo shoot, controlled environment where they asked me to do it, but that, that wasn't the headline, right? But whatever, you know, like I said, I got a lot of negative press, and then all that negative press kind of, like, you know, catapulted me forward, and I was doing the social experiment to see how much, you know, how famous I could get and whatever. And it was kind of, like, went off the rails and it kind of turned into its own thing. And. And then I would say around maybe 2021 ish or so, kind of the time that I was getting a lot of the shitty press or whatever I actually had.

I think I've developed more confidence in the last, like, three or four years than I've ever had in my entire life because I don't need anybody telling me that I'm great. It doesn't really bother me if people tell me that I'm not and I have like a higher, you know, self value than I ever have before, because I know what I've accomplished, because I spent two years fucking reflecting on it and writing about it and like realizing like, how much fucking, you know, effort a lot of this stuff took. And I also kind of like, you know, got a lot of confidence in like, who I was, a person, and like the things that I've done and the fact that I haven't sold out and I haven't done, I guess, things that would compromise your value system for money or for fame or whatever. I think a lot of other guys have done that.

Have you got any times where there was an offer on the table that was tempting or that you would have thought, oh, I mean, that's a lot of something for me to compromise my values?

Yeah, all the time. I mean, I got offered $3 million to do one post about a crypto coin. I got offered millions and millions of dollars to do an NFT post, and things that I felt like would lose people money or whatever, tens of millions of dollars for gambling sites or whatever.

Come and be a steak.com kick partner and livestream, you playing plinko balls or.

Whatever, all that shit, you know, and it's like, I really feel like gambling is a net negative. Like, I think it's just bad. Obviously the house ends up with the fucking money, it's not the answer. A lot of guys want this get rich quick thing or whatever to intro.

Just to sit on that. It's a really interesting point that everybody gets accused and gets the finger pointed at them for all of the bad things that they do and some of the bad things that they have been accused of doing, but nobody ever gets given. Plus points for the bad things that they didn't do. No one knows the podcast guests that would have done huge plays and many of the people brought on, but ethically I didnt feel were virtuous. I dont get any points for the bad things that no one knows that I didnt do, all of the stuff that you say no to. And thats an interesting point during the NFT and crypto phase where anybody, I mean that would have been whatever, like bills, coin or some fucking shit would have been a huge cash grab, the distribution circulation that you would have had with that. I totally, totally didn't think about it, but that's a. Yeah, yeah, that's okay.

Well it's different if you do your own coin because then you have some control over it. But just promoting somebody else's rug, that I wouldn't feel right about, you know, that I think is fucked up because, like, they're gonna pay me because they're gonna fucking rug it and they're gonna take the money, and the people that I'm gonna send to invest are gonna lose. So it's kind of like those people.

Are your exit liquidity.

Yeah, exactly. So, you know, look, I mean, there's been plenty of coins that have done well, you know, like doge, you know, fucking. That made a bunch of money and. Yeah, because. Because the whole premise of crypto is, like, kind of this decentralized thing that allows people to bet on, like, the stock market is rigged, and people that, you know, they saw it in the Gamestop stuff, like, they fucked those guys, like, bad. Like, they halted trading. They did all this stuff, like, finally, like, the good guys are gonna win, you know, and they still fucked it them. So. Exactly. So it's kind of like crypto is maybe, like, one of the last things that isn't really a rigged market if done right. And I think that's some of the appeal. And you can't inflate it. Like the government's inflating the fucking dollar and whatever. So I do believe in crypto, but, yeah, I wasn't going to do any of the, you know, the bullshit promo stuff, and. But I think the confidence that I have is just in kind of, like, knowing that I'm a good person. Not necessarily, you know, I mean, like, not doing bad things, I think is important, too.

But, like, I think you get your real confidence from knowing that, like, you will suffer for the right thing. You will fucking not quit. You will have follow through. You'll do the things that you believe in. You'll stand for the things that may fuck you. You know what I mean? Like, you'll say what's on your mind regardless of the outcome. Like, that's the stuff I think, that you get real confidence from. Because, look, anybody can do things that are fucking easy. You know, it's like, how do you behave when things are difficult or when the shit hits the fan? That's what defines you. Not like, you know, are you the nice guy? Do you take a bunch of fucking photos when everybody's sucking your dick? You know, it's like, not. Do you fucking, you know, whatever, wave for the crowd? Like, you know, it's just. It's easy to behave well when things are going good, but I think it's like how you behave when you know there's gonna be negative consequences for what you do or what you say. And I think when you stand up for what you believe in, regardless of the consequences, even when you know the consequences are going to be bad, I think thats when you get the real confidence.

Its interesting that your desire for self esteem or your lack of confidence originally is one of the things that drives you to make a ton of money and then sleep with loads of women and then have all of these peak experiences. And then you end up. Its like the alchemist by Paulo Coelho. You end up going all the way back around to just stick to your words, say things that you believe are true, do hard things when you can. It's basically like a philosophical equivalent of Navy SeAL hell week.

Yeah, like King Solomon, you know, it's like, I think you have to have some real insecurities to drive you to go to the ends of the earth, you know, like the David Goggins stuff. Like, he has to have some fucking demons. You know what I mean? Like, it's just one of those things where. And, you know, and back to the fucking chinese farmer. It's like, you know, sometimes those insecurities help you. You know, sometimes those are good things. Sometimes they drive you. Sometimes they give you the motivation to continue when you otherwise would have quit.

So that's one of the, I guess, liberating or reassuring or maybe actually disenchanting things of the last few years of my life. Meeting more and more successful and rich and famous people and realizing that, on average, most of them are more miserable than the average person. That a lot of the people are driven by a sense of insufficiency or a requirement for validation, or a parent that didn't care enough about them, or what the bully said in school, or whatever it might be. Andrew Wilkinson, guy that founded tiny billionaire. He says most successful people are just a walking anxiety disorder harnessed for productivity. I think there's definitely outliers in there. There's tons of people that have managed to find the correct balance between hedonism, between what they look for from everybody else, how they feel about themselves, the world's view of them, their view of them. But there's definitely a kind of irony in the most admired people often having the least admirable internal states. If you could just take a little holiday to their mental landscape as their head hits the pillow on an evening time and go, holy fuck it. No, thank you.

I do not want that. Like, there's a great interview Lex Friedman did with Elon Musk maybe last year. And Elon sort of very solemnly looks Lex in the eyes, and he says, most people think that they would want to be me. They don't want to be me. They don't know. They don't understand. My mind is a storm. You're like, holy fuck. This is the robot dancing on stage at Japan convention. Tesla firing rockets into space guy. And meanwhile, he sounds like he's having an existential crisis. Well, yeah, because what is it that drives somebody internally and what you see of them externally? And it doesn't, a lot of the time, I don't think you would pay the price that you would need to, to be the person that you admire.

Yeah. I mean, there's that. And also just money doesn't solve the problems. Like, people don't. People think that it does. It actually perpetuates a lot of problems.

How so?

Because it exacerbates them. It puts them on a larger scale. More people are fucking, you know, wanting something from you. It's harder to determine, you know, people are there for the right reasons. You know, you've got more staff, you got more responsibility. You've got more things pulling your fucking energy now. You've got, you know, four houses to, you know, manage. You've got a jet, you've got, you know, I mean, I have, like, 22 staff members.

You know, the private life is just as complex as your personal, your professional life.

I mean, managing staff is just like managing girls. You know, it's like eventually you just get to a point where, like, you don't want to fucking manage all this shit. Like, you don't, you know? And so then you hire somebody to manage that. You don't mean it's like, oh, it's outsourcing. Outsourcing, outsourcing. But you're basically, like, running a company. Like, I've got multiple chefs. I've got, you know, the. I've got, you know, house cleaners. I've got a bunch of assistants. I've got, you know, just all this staff. Right? But then the staff has to manage the staff, and it's a whole thing. Right? And what is it all for? Just so you don't have to make your bed and cook your food, whatever. Cause, like, last week, I just went up to Minnesota, saw family at my grandmother's funeral, and then I went to Canada. And we live basically, like, in the fucking woods, really. We got a cabin up there. But there's, you know, we have to use propane and there's an outhouse and, you know, we have power only because generator, you know, it's. It's a lot. You know, like, it's basically like I'm cooking my own fucking meals.

I was doing all my own shit and I just realized like, how much. How many things were done for me, but at the same time, like, I didn't really need it. You know, like, it was just kind of nice to be able to just be self sufficient for three or four days. There's no cell reservice, so I never looked at my cell phone. You know, it was kind of nice. Like, it was just good to unplug and just realize, like, I don't actually need all this shit.

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That's eightsleep.com, modernwisdom, and modern wisdom. A checkout. What have you learned about where money does, how you can spend money?

Well, a lot of ways. A tool. I mean, it's a tool to get what you want. It's a tool to save time. It's a tool to set up an environment to bring what you want to. You know, it could help you with women, it could help you with a lot of things. And so it's. It's just. It's one of those things where I think people want it for the wrong reasons. And I think a lot of people that get it don't know how to use it. But it's valuable. I mean, it allows you to, you know, travel the world when you want. Allows you to tell people fuck you. That that's the biggest thing, honestly. Like, that's the reason I always wanted money, is just to tell people, fuck you. And I. It's. It's always funny to me to see guys, like the rock or whatever, that's like, still fucking, like, punching the fucking narrative, still fucking doing what he's told. Still fucking, you know, like, giving the speeches, endorsing, you know, like, just like, who's your master? Like, what the fuck are you doing? You got $400 million. Like, what the fuck is wrong with you?

Like, why are you answering to anybody? Like, why is anybody influencing what you say? Like, be your own fucking person. You have enough. Like, when you get to a point where, like, you can't spend your money, the idea of, like, being a slave to money is fucking crazy to me.

I heard you say not long ago, maybe within the last few years, that you wanted to make a billion dollars and that that was this kind of, you knew, arbitrary, sort of pointless number to get to. Is that still on the list or is that something that you've been able to deprogram?

I've been able to deprogram it. That was one of the things. And I saw this in my life. Like, I was sure that a million dollars was, like, enough. Like, I needed a million dollars and then it was 5 million and there was 10 million, it was 50, and then it was 100 and it was like 500. You know, it was always like a fucking another number and it was never enough and it's never going to be enough. And, you know, I just realized that I got happiness from, like, helping other people and doing things that I enjoyed doing. So I need to fucking focus on that. It's actually pretty simple. It's not like a real complex.

I was going to say one of the themes here is definitely sort of simplifying rather than adding complexity. Lots of goals, lots of complexity, lots of staff, lots of complexity, lots of money, managing that obligations, this party that I need to run or go to or whatever. I've heard you say that, you know, most of the parties that you ran when you were in that phase in LA, you didn't really get any chance to enjoy yourself because you were the guy in the door and making sure that everybody else had good night. And you're organizing this and organizing that despite presumably a fucking ton of the staff or whatever that are there to help you. And increasingly it seems to me that the best ways that people who have money spend money is to actually simplify life rather than make it more complex. But the natural sort of root of having money is more things and more people and more complexity.

Yeah, I think at the end of the day, you realize that you value peace, just not headaches, not stress, not girls fighting, not energy being pulled in a million directions. And so, yeah, I would say I prioritize peace more now than I did before. I had, like, no peace before, so I don't know, man. I'm not like an extremist. I just go fucking all the way this direction. All the way this direction. And, yeah, doing those parties is a fucking nightmare. I mean, there was, like, one point, I distinctly remember one point when I actually enjoyed the party and it was maybe for ten minutes, but I was, I was. I'll never forget it because it was like. And I ended the book on it. It was. I was in a daybed and I had like 20 girls crawling all over me, fucking grabbing me. And I was like, you know, mcQualuded kicked in and I was happy. And alesso and fucking carnage and Diplo were all fucking dj and all at the same time. And, like, it was like, looked out, there's nothing but hot chicks and a few celebrities and whatever. And I just, like, I just realized at that moment, like, I had thrown, like, one of the best parties has ever been thrown in the fucking world.

Like, hands down, I know it for a fact. And there was, like, some sense of accomplishment there, you know? And. But I realized, like, this was the top. Like, you, I couldn't do a better party. There was 3000 girls. There's like 300 celebrities. And it was just, like, there. What, you couldn't have done a better party? There's, like, the best dj and the best whatever, all this shit. Cirque du Soleil performers and, yeah, I did. I was like, that was. That was a mountain that I wanted to climb.

Like, you have attempted to spin it up for one last time.

I mean, there it is. Maybe one more, you know, but, like, that's not. But. But, like, just to do it. Just like, fuck it. Why not? But not because I feel any obligation to do it. And I feel like I did it because of obligation before. I mean, it's. It is fun to throw a good party because, you know, people have a good time and it's something that, you know, they remember. But it is a fucking pain in the ass, man. Like, it's, you know, to do it the way I wanted to do it. I lost a lot of friends, you know? Cause, like, I wouldn't let fucking guys come in there. I wanted the ratio to be right, like, pissed off a lot of celebrities, but they were fucking great, you know, the parties were awesome. I mean, for the people that were there, so. And that's what I wanted to do. I always wanted to, like, go to a playboy party, and then I went to a Playboy party, and it was cool. And I fucked a girl on the grotto, and I thought, like, man, like, I've done it. And then I threw a party that was better than the Playboy party, and that was like, okay, now I've really done it.

That's enough.

Did you pivot to monogamy?

Did.

How's that?

But I'm not saying, I'm not, like, some proponent that, like, you have to be monogamous. I just found that it's just the natural state. Like, and people want to always say, like, you know, the only animals that are monogamous or gas dolphins and all this shit. But, like, you know, whatever. It's, like a natural thing in the animal kingdom for the alpha male to fuck all the chicks. Like, I get it, you know, like, I argued that too, and I did. You know, I fucked a lot of chicks. But I think that when you actually really like a girl and when she really likes you or you're in love or whatever, it's not worth the pain that it causes her to fuck other girls. That's what I landed on, so it wasn't so much. And I also didn't need it too. Like, I didn't need to fucking stick my dick in a bunch of girls. Like, I've done that. And I think that because I've done that, it actually gives you a unique ability to be monogamous. Because I think if you're some dude from Wisconsin and you're fucking married after sleeping with two chicks and some hot chick hits on you the rest of your life, you're gonna be like, damn, what would that have been like?

I wanted to walk exactly like. And I think it would almost be impossible not to be like that. That versus if you've had sex with a lot of girls, you know what you like, you know what you don't like. You probably appreciate the girl that you landed on more, so. And, um, and you just won't have the wandering eye. So I'm also a proponent of getting out there and, you know, hooking up with a decent amount of girls, seeing what you like, dating around, figuring it out, not putting pressure, not getting married, because society tells you you should get married. I'm not saying I even agree in marriage, but, like, a monogamous relationship, I think is probably the goal, is where you should want to end, because I think that's where you'll be the happiest, because you can focus on your shit, you're not distracted, and it's pretty easy to keep one girl happy. I did it with like a hundred. So, like, one is peace, one is very simple.

I remember one of my friends when I was back in the UK, was sort of really hardcore into pickup artistry and keynote escalation. And when, you know, Neal Strauss in the game and mystery and all of that stuff was coming around, I remember him saying over dinner one evening, he said, my future wife better appreciate all of this effort I'm putting in. I'm like, you're gonna have to explain to me how you like plate spinning 15 WhatsApp chicks at once is an investment in your future wife. She says, well, look, when I'm walking down the street with my two and a half kids and the golden retriever and my wife, I don't want to look at a brazilian chick and think, I wonder what it's like to fuck a brazilian chick. So he's like, really? I'm doing this for my future wife? And I'm like, maybe some roundabout kind of logic. But as you're saying here, you know, there are some lessons for some people. Like, you need constitutions. For one person, it might be money. For another person it might be fame. For another person it might be women. For other people, it might be all of them that you need to check boxes in order to close those loops.

There's that. And then I think also you get more confidence. And I think a lot of people cheat out of insecurity. And so I think by dating a bunch of women and by getting confidence and realizing that, you know, women are attracted to you and they like you, this may not have been as true for you. You know, mister fucking GQ model growing up, you probably didn't have trouble getting pussy or whatever.

Very ugly. Oh, very ugly guy until I was about 19.

All right, well, anyways, for. I think for most guys, there's probably, you know, because there's a lot of different attraction triggers. There's the common ones that guys think about, but there's a bunch of other ones that are actually really powerful. And, you know, like pre selection, for instance. Like, just having a bunch of girls around you that are interested in you will absolutely, unequivocally make hot girls want to fuck you. And I've seen it, you know, more so than good looks because I went on vacation with Bill, you know, here's a good looking guy worth $500 million. Funny, smart, like, all the things that guys think that they need. He went four days on a deserted island with 36 hot girls and didn't fuck a single girl. And not for lack of trying, he literally tried to fuck every single girl there, and they all said no. Okay? So that was one of the things that, like, you know, in deconstructing this course that I realized was, like, the things that guys think they need is not what they fucking need. Because I've seen guys with every single. And it's not like he didn't get pussy.

I mean, I fucked ten girls with him at one time before that, you know, trip. So, like, it's not like he wasn't confident. He was a fucking d one football player. The guy got girls, so he had all the things. Confidence, experience, whatever. The guys, you know, set up being on a deserted island with 36 fucking girls, they can only fuck him. I mean, I think the security guard got late. But anyway, the point is he was doing the most common thing that guys do, which is he was over communicating interest to women. And what he did is he just over communicated interest. And he hit on women in the traditional sense that guys think is correct, wrecked to get girls. He hit on them, gave them compliments, whatever. But he blew himself out with every girl because he over communicated interest. And what I told him in the fucking fourth day was like, dude, you need to just chill the fuck out. Like, stop over communicating interests. Stop acting, you know? You know, reeking of desperation. Stop acting like, if you don't get laid, you're going to fucking die, you know? And on the fourth day, sure enough, he chilled the fuck out.

He fucked four girls, you know, and, like, met his wife, had a few of the reasons, like, everything was good and, you know, and it was just a small shift. And so that's what I've seen is like, you know, small shifts can have a big fucking impact on the outcome. And I just think a lot of people are just doing the wrong thing.

What is your opinion on modern advice for men? We're talking about crisis of masculinity, men struggling with their role in the world, whether it's financially, professionally, existentially with women. What do you make of the current landscape of advice men?

I think it was a fucking disaster. Like an unequivocal disaster. The current landscape is fucking atrocious. Which is why I spent the last two years doing this. And I talked to you about this about a year ago. I actually didn't even know the fuck you were. Like, you know, sharp guys at Bill's house, probably good, dude, whatever. And, like, you know, we rap about this, and then, you know, and then I found out that, you know, you were famous, too, and you had a podcast and all this stuff, and, you know, you knew about this stuff and you're interested. But, like, at the time we talked, it was just like, you know, two guys chopping it up about this and, like, you got it. Like, I saw that, like, you understood the problem. And I don't know, I just, like, I look out and I just see them getting the wrong advice, doing the wrong things, having bad results. And then the problem is they're quitting. Like, that's the biggest problem is not that they're not getting pussy, but that they're quitting. And I think the problem today is that guys have maps with the wrong directions.

And before 40, 50 years ago, even when we were kids, like, we didn't really have directions. You know, it's like we saw some shit in the movies, right? We had some good stuff, like what James Bond did, and then we had the bad stuff, the rom.com. but, like, we didn't really have, like, the bad directions that we have today. And this attack on masculinity and all this stuff, which is, like, just a recipe for horrendous fucking results. And also coupled by the fact that women, because of social media, now think they deserve, like, this crazy guy that maybe they could fuck, but that's not going to date them seriously. And then they have experiences with those type of guys, you know, which exacerbates this problem. And then they end up fucking marrying some guy that's worth $100 million that's just, like, happy because they're hot and doesn't realize that they have, like, fucked half the, you know, NFL football team and whatever, you know, and then the girl doesn't really respect that guy because she, you know, has all these other previous guys to compare them to. Plus the fact that she doesn't really think of herself as being like, you know, that high value because she hasn't been able to date any of the guys that she actually really wanted.

Right. So it's like, creates this landscape of unhappiness on both sides for men.

Expectations. Cynicism. Yeah. There's a big trend of cynicism around dating advice for guys. And I think, as you said, a lot of them are checking out. How cynical or hopeful do you think guys should be when it comes to the dating market?

I mean, if they do the right things, there's hope for everybody. I mean, look, I was not a guy that was supposed to get hardly any pussy, and I didn't. In high school, I lost my virginity to mexican hooker. And then we went a couple of years out of that. We finally figured it out, and that sucks again, but not much. You know, in the military, I'd, like, did terrible. I would, like, go up to every girl with the typical, like, oh, I think you're beautiful, you know, can I buy you a drink line? And obviously that's going to do fucking terrible because that's like just setting yourself up for failure, over communicating interest. It puts a girl in a position of like, I can have this guy. You know, do I want him? And when you look at something like that, it's like all the flaws magnify. It's like when somebody tries to fucking sell you something, they pitch you really hard. You automatically look at all the reasons why you potentially shouldn't buy this, right? Well, it's no different in dating. So when a guy comes up and, like, lays it on real thick and this is like, oh, I'm just going to be fucking honest.

I'm just going to tell her how I feel and, like, all this bullshit and, like, you know, and it just runs her right the fuck off because she doesn't respond to that because in her, you know, past experience, all those guys that have come up are usually, like, the needy guys and whatever. And so I had the wrong approach and I got shady results. And then, you know, in college, I kind of started to figure it out because the ratio was better and my approach was different. And so when I started, like, you know, not over communicating interest and we had these situations where women would come talk to us, like, I had a glimpse of, like, okay, I'm the same guy here. I'm the same guy here, but I'm getting way better results here. Why? And that was, like, the first time. And I read the game, and so I got a little bit of an insight on it. And I would say the game was kind of, like, similar to, like, our poker theory in the beginning. It's like, it's an idea. Some of it's right, you know, but some of it's really wrong, too.

And I don't think that, you know, people are even close to figuring out what is, like, actually effective. I did a pretty good job. Like, I laid out like, a good framework of, like, the common mistakes that guys are making. What you can do, you know, correctly hacks just mindset shifts.

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That's nomatic.com modernwisdom and MW 20, a checkout. Break it down for me. What are the common assumptions, the biggest ones that are holding guys back when it comes to attracting women? And what are the reframes or the best strategies that you've deconstructed from yourself?

Okay, so the most common problems, I would say, would be some mindsets, like limiting beliefs. A big one. Like thinking like, oh, I'm not tall, so women aren't going to be attracted to me, or I'm not rich, so I can't get women. Or, you know, like, all these reasons why they're not attracted.

Do those things not matter?

No, they don't matter fucking at all. Like, at all. Like the things that actually can make a woman pursue you or chase you or be interested in you. Like, you know, Bill's a perfect example. He had all the things. Not one, not two, not three. He had every single fucking thing that guys think that they need to get women.

Plus a desert island.

Desert island with 36 year olds, like, you couldn't get a better scenario. So, like, that is literal proof that, like, all these things, things, you know.

Still didn't get light.

Exactly. That's not going to solve your problem. Because here's a guy that had all those things, and he still fucking didn't do it, right? And I. And I have another sample of fucking a bunch of guys, my fraternity that were short, that didn't have money, that weren't that fucking smart, all this stuff. And they got a ton of pussy. So, like, I just know that it's not the traditional things that guys think that they need. That that's a part of it. But I think, like. Like I said, when I kind of, like, deconstructed it, the biggest. The biggest epiphany that I had was the difference of when you are chasing a woman or you're pursuing a woman versus when she's pursuing you. And, like, the flaws disappearing on both sides. When a woman's chasing you, your flaws disappear. Her flaws magnify. Just like when the. You know, when the really, you know, stage five Klinger girl hits you up all the time. It's like you're not interested in her. Maybe she can suck your dick on a Friday night if you strike out at 03:00 a.m. right? But, like, you know, the same thing's true for women is, like, when these guys massively over communicate interests, they know they can have them, and then it's like a conversation of, do they want them looking at flaws?

You're gonna find them. Like, you've got flaws, I've got flaws. Like, everybody has flaws, right? So when you're looking for flaws, you know, they stand out. But when you're pursuing something, you know, like, think an auction. You know, like, five guys want something. Five guys are bidding for something, and, like, you really want it. And you have this, like, you know, idea in your mind of, like, when you wanted something, you didn't get it. In this fear of loss, you're not thinking about what's wrong with it. You're just, how do I get it right? Just like, you know. And this is probably the most common mistake guys make, is they're like, this girl's hot. How do I fuck her? You know? That's the thought process. Like, oh, my God, she's so beautiful. Like, I would marry that girl. How many times you heard a guy say, like, oh, my God, she's so hot. I would marry her. It's like, what if she has fucking aids? What if she's a pathological liar? What if she's fuck, like, 95,000 guys? What if she's just, like, you know, a serial cheater? Like, you know, what if this girl has massive problems.

What if she's bipolar? What if she's got a fucking massive alcohol problem? Whatever, right? Like, dig a little bit deeper. Like, be discerning. You know? Like, go into the interaction, like, wanting to find out more about the girl, not just accepting her looks as being enough. And I think that's the biggest problem that guys make, is that they just, like, the looks are enough. And then the conversation is like, how do I get her to like me? So you're already going in there with a handicap. You know, like, when a salesman comes in, like, he's already coming in from a fucking handicap. Versus, like, when somebody goes into the store because they need fucking milk, they just go to the aisle, they find the fucking milk, and they buy it. Versus if you show up at the fucking door and you try and sell them milk, they'd be like, oh, who is this guy? Is the milk fucking old? Can I trust this? You know, I mean, like, the difference, like, when you want something, it's just like, how do I get it? It's not, you know, the same conversation. And so that would be the biggest thing.

And I. And I. And I figured that out because I had big sample size of girls that wanted to fuck me that I screwed it up with, and a big sample size of girls that wanted to fuck me that I also had sex with. And I think that's, like, look, in a. In an experiment, you have to have the control group, right? Most guys do not have the control group. Like, I literally had girls sending me butt naked photos on Instagram. I want to fuck you. And I screwed it up with those girls. So I'm just saying, like, only in, like, cross comparing what worked and what didn't work with two sample sizes of girls that both wanted to sleep with me couldn't.

You're the same guy to both of them.

Exactly. Cause, like, you know, there's girls that just, like, wouldn't want to sleep with me because I'm fucking armenian or I have a shitty haircut or whatever, right? Like, there's gonna be girls that just, like, wouldn't fuck me, period. So because I had that sample that I knew that they wanted to sleep with me and I screwed it up, I was able to, like, figure out the things that I was doing wrong, and, like, one of the big things that I was doing wrong was, like, I was over communicating interests. I would have problems with the girls that I was like, oh, damn, this girl's hot. She's different. Or I really like her, whatever. And my approach would change. And because my approach would change. My fucking results would change.

What about to treat the mean to keep them keen, not signaling sufficient interest? That girl doesn't actually end up responding to you at all. Think, well, he's not interested. So this doesn't go anyway.

So I wouldn't say treat them mean. I would say change your default setting from nice to challenging, you know, because, like, a lot of these guys, like, they aren't really nice guys. Like, oh, like, you know. You know, I just want to be an. It's like, you're not that nice to the fucking fat chick. You're not that nice to the janitor. You're nice to this girl because you want to fuck her, you know? So, like, this whole idea of, like, oh, I'm just being myself, or, like, that's another one. It's like, I just want to be myself. Like, I want her to like me for me. And it's like, okay, well, there's different brands, versions of you. There's a version of you in an armani suit. There's a version of you dressed like shit, you know, there's a version of you where you fucking, like, take care of your fucking diet and work out and, like, you know, work at your fucking job. There's a version of you that just, like, succumbs to every one of your fucking, you know, impulses. Like, you know, like, I drive by McDonald's and like, you know, I just want to eat fries, but I don't, you know, like, I want to have fucking snickers all day, but I don't, you know, like, you can make yourself better.

And I think, you know, a lot of guys don't do that. Like, a lot of guys are just like, I want a girl to like me for me.

So get tactical for a moment with regards to guy has go that he thinks she's hot, she's interesting. I want to pursue her. What is a better tactical way of moving toward that? What should they do?

Well, I mean, I would not start the interaction by over communicating interest number one. So I would go up and, you know, have a conversation with her. You know, I mean, I've asked girls crazy stuff. I take, like, a pretty extreme approach, and I wouldn't recommend this for, you know, all guys, but, like, I'll ask girls crazy questions. Like, me and my were having a conversation the other day, and, like, he was like, I think it's. I was arguing that I think you have a lower chance of getting a serious rejection if you put a girl's hand on your dick than if you go for a kiss. And this is after a girl's into you and, like, you guys have been on a fucking date or whatever, and there's like, you know, some chemistry, whatever. And he was like, you're out of your fucking mind. Like this, that and the other. And I was like, okay, well, let's ask some girls. So, like, I just would go up to a girl and I'd be like, hey, you know, like, this is the. This is the question. Like, you know, what do you. I wouldn't frame, like, who is on which side?

But, like, they wanted to answer, so they gave their answer. Now all of a sudden, we're in a sexual conversation with a girl where I haven't communicated any interest to her at all, and I've almost, like, disqualified her because I'm asking her this question that, like, usually wouldn't ask about you. Exactly. You wouldn't ask a girl that you're trying to, like, hook up with because it's, like, a crazy question, too. And so I'm not saying that that would be, you know, the optimal approach, but I'm just saying, like, that's something that, like, most guys wouldn't think to do, but that it's more successful than going up over communicating interests. Putting a girl in a position where, like, she has to decide, like, accept or reject. And usually when they're, like, forced to accept or reject, usually reject is the default. And if it's not, then they're probably a horror if they just, like, accept every guy that comes up to him.

This is your chasing versus choosing paradigm.

Well, yeah, so, so, you know, get into the interaction and, you know, the caveat to that is, like, what you say to a girl isn't necessarily how important is, like, how you say it. So you could go up and say some fucking really stupid shit to open the conversation. It doesn't really matter. Like, as long as you get in there without massively over communicating interest, right. And then I would say be discerning, you know, be challenging. Like, you know, ask questions, dig deeper, get a little bit of information about it, you know? Um, I mean, Neal Strauss had a good one when he was on with Jessica Alba. And he said, um, you know, you know, looks are common in LA. Aside from your looks, like, what would your friends say are the three, you know, best qualities about you? And, like, in that one question, he immediately, like, pulled away her looks, which was, like, one of her strongest attributes. Like, nobody give a fuck about Jessica Alva. She's ugly, right? So it's literally, like, her superpower. He just sucked it right out of the conversation. He's also digging deeper, and now he's got her in a position of, like, qualifying herself to him and selling herself to him.

She's telling him why she's good, you know? And so that would be a much better start of an interaction than, like, you know, I think you're so beautiful. Like, I just had to come over here and, you know, by the way, I'm a doctor, you know, and I drive a Lamborghini. And, like, all this bullshit. The guys, like, you know, they try and brag about themselves. They're doing all these things, and the girl's just, like, in a position of like, okay, you know, like, do I want this motherfucker? That's. That's the conversation usually between guys and girls is like, the girls like, okay, do I want this guy? It's like playing poker. And the guys just, like, turn over their fucking cards. And so I would say, like, you know, dig a little bit deeper, be discerning. Like, find out about the girl. Like, you know, decide. And then if you want to give her a compliment, give her a compliment on, like, something that's unique about her, something that's, like, she earned or, you know, not just like she was born with, you know? Like, if she has pretty eyes, I'm sure she's heard that from a million fucking guys.

Like, don't tell her she has pretty, pretty eyes. You know, like, just be different. I mean, I guess, like, a big epiphany I had, too was, like, when I became famous, you know? And I just talk about this in there, too, is, like, understanding a hot girl's mind. Because when I became famous, like, I understood what it's like to be a hot chick. And I understood that in the sense of, like, I had forced interactions wherever the fuck I would go, whether it was a starbucks, whether it was fucking, you know, wherever. Like, I had people coming up to me. And the same thing is true of a girl. Like, when she goes to fucking, you get her mail, when she goes to the grocery store store. Like, guys are hitting on her all the fucking time. So it's forced interactions. And what I notice is the first hundred times, guys would come up to me and be like, bro, you're the fucking man. Blah, blah, blah. Like, you know, all this shit. I was like, okay, cool, you know, whatever. And I always take the pictures, you know? But I guess what I'm trying to, you know, explain with that is, let's say you were a famous guy.

And a guy comes up to you like, bro, you're the fucking man, dude. Like, all this shit, and you've heard this 10,000 times. Is that gonna make you want to have a beer with that guy? No, like, maybe you'll take a photo with him. You'll tell him you appreciate it, but it's not going to make you want to, like, hang out with him. Now, if that guy comes up to you and is like, hey, man, you know, I only got a second, but I just want to tell you, like, you know, I really like this fucking, you know, maybe the guy's a rock star. I really like this song that you didn't he tell. Told him a song that he did, like, in the fucking garage. He's like, and I had that same fucking guitar that you had and whatever. And then he's just like, kind of excuse himself on the way out. Maybe that rockstar, like, wants to have a conversation with, oh, shit, that guitar, you know, that's, like, one of my favorite guitars. You. You know, like, now you're coming out from a different angle. And I would say the same thing is true with hot girls is, like, if you go up and say the same fucking shit that all these other guys have said to these girls, you're gonna have the same knee jerk reaction.

The walls are gonna go up. She's gonna remember the last fucking 20 times she got caught in a fucking 30 minutes conversation with some fucking idiot talking her ear off. And she knows that the guy just wants to fuck her. Cause she's built no value, right? Like, early on in the conversation, if you compliment her a bunch before she's earned it, and it's kind of like you're telling her indirectly, correctly, you're hot. Well, you're above me, and your looks are good enough. I don't even care if you have flawed like, you're hot. And so that's enough for me, and I'm ready to date you.

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That's drink lmnt.com modern wisdom. It's so funny, that kind of a playground mentality of if I know that I can have it, I don't want it. And it's so funny how that seems to be in your worldview. Like a fundamental part of the physics.

Well, translates to everything. You know, it's sales, it's negotiation, it's business, it's all these things.

The person that can walk away from the deal is the one that holds.

The most power, always.

So here's a big one. How do guys not get intimidated or nervous by hot women?

Well, I mean, there's like the correct way, and then there's hacks. I mean, you can just, like, pretend like the girl is chlamydia. You know, if you, like, mentally kind of, like, register like she has chlamydia and, like, you wouldn't fuck her even if she wanted to fuck you. You're going to interact differently with that girl. And so that would be like the first hack to just, like, tell a guy, you know what I mean? Like, if they go up to a super hot chick and they're just otherwise going to be really giddy and, you know, nervous and just, like, excited, and all they can think about is like, you know, how do I get this girl, like me, and then that they're actually on a date with the girl, which it probably never will be, you know, like, you know, should I make a move now? All this shit, right? But, like, if you give her chlamydia, you just, like, suck all that out, you know, then you take away that anxiety. He's not thinking about, like, you know, how do I have sex with her? He's not thinking about, like, should I make a move now?

And he's going to interact with her differently, you know, and that's one of the things is, like, interact with these girls. Like, they don't have a bunch of power over you. Like, you know, like you don't need them. Neediness is not attractive. Right. And I think that's one of the things that guys sub communicate when they, you know, over compliment, when they over chase, when they do. A lot of things that guys do is they just put themselves in a category of like, you know, the fucking needy guy, which is most men. And if you want to have, you know, if you want to have success with a super hot girl, like, don't act like all the rest of the guys.

How should guys build confidence? Because it's all well and good saying that you should be the prize and you should make a chase. But what if you've got low self esteem?

Yeah, I mean, that's going to be a problem that a lot of guys are going to have to deal with. Right. So by not making the conversation binary, right. By not hitting on the girl, you're actually going to lower the pressure. Because if you just, let's just say you just ask for directions. Not that that's like the correct way, but I'm just saying as an example, you're not going to get nervous to ask a girl for directions, right? But you're going to get nervous if you feel like you're going to get rejected, right. And you get rejected when you communicate interest or you put her in a position like you give her compliments or you kind of like state your intentions, you tell her, you know, that, you know, you think she's beautiful and you want to buy her a drink or whatever the fuck it is, you know? So I would say go into the interaction from a standpoint of like, I just want to get to know this person. I want to find out more. I want to dig deeper. You know, like act like you're on the fucking bachelor and you've got 20 other options.

You're not going to just going to pick the first option. Like you're going to want to know more about this girl. And if you go into the interaction with that, you're going to sub communicate a lot more value because that's how you know a guy that has options is going to act. So you can kind of act as if and you can cheat the system a little bit and you can like do some hacks in your mind to like put you in a better headspace, which is going to then sub communicate. Sub communicate confidence. And when you do that, then you're going to have better results. When you have better results, you're actually going to naturally have more confidence. You're going to have less anxiety because you're not putting yourself in a position to get rejected. Right. And so there's a lot of things that you can do. And so my game has always been about, like, doing less to get a better result. And I think a mistake that a lot of guys make is, is they put in a lot of perceived effort. And this is before sex. So before sex, the amount of effort that you put in is going to cut negatively against you.

And this is very, like, counterintuitive for a lot of guys because in life, in your job, in business, you know, the more effort, the fucking more you're going to get a raise or the more likely to get a promotion. You show up at your fucking, you know, buddy's house at fucking 02:00 a.m. to bail them out or whatever, you know, you bail them out of jail, like, the things that you do for your friends, like, you know, then they'll have your back, right? So, like, all this effort is rewarded everywhere in life except for dating. So the more effort that you put in before you have sex with a girl, the harder it's going to be actually to have sex with that girl. And I think a lot of guys don't understand that concept.

What would you say to the women on the Internet that go, but guys don't make enough effort with me. I want them to make effort. I want them to show me that they're interested. There's enough Lothario playboy guys out there. It's actually really attractive. When a guy shows, shows me that he's interested and displays effort, she's lying.

Like, I mean, I think it's. I think it's good to give effort after it's justified or deserved. But, like, I. What? I just ignore almost everything that women say because it's almost all bullshit. Because you ask women, like, what do you want in a guy? And then you look at the last 20 guys they fucked and they have, like, almost none of those things on the list. So, like, asking, which is why, like, women dating coaches are just like, such a waste of time. Because there's what women say they want and then there's what they respond to and what they respond to is what's important, right? So. And I don't think a lot of them understand, like, the subconscious response mechanisms, too. Like one big one is pre selection and jealousy, like, those are.

Talk to me about that. So pre selection, you arriving or you being around other attractive girls. Not everybody has access to a hundred chick harem in a desert island. What can what can guys do to get that pre selection going?

I'm actually not, like, teaching do what I do did because that's, you know, not really the direction that I feel like most guys are probably going to want to go down. And I don't think it's really, like, an achievable thing. What I'm teaching is more like, and I say teaching like, I'm not trying to be like a fucking dating coach. I just want to kind of, like, put the right information out there so these guys have a fucking roadmap to get what the fuck they want to go. And I think the big thing is if they just didn't do the things wrong, they would have a fucking massive leg up. So we just, like, start with, like, don't do the fucking, like, common mistakes. And then also, you know, when I say put in effort, I'm like, I think it should be reciprocated too. Like, a buddy of mine, he would have girls pick up a gallon of milk, you know, on the way to his house, and he didn't even drink fucking milk. But the act of them, like, doing something for them made them more invested in the relationship, you know? And so these guys, like, the effort is not going to be correlated to your positive outcome.

It's like, if you showed up to your first date with chocolates and fucking and, and roses, like, you're not going to be more likely to sleep with that girl. In fact, I would argue that you'd be much less likely to sleep with that girl. And so it's just, listen, once you're in a relationship, you can put in effort, but I think the effort needs to be reciprocated. Because the problem is, if you're the only one putting an effort, if you subscribe to this, like, happy wife, happy life bullshit, then what happens is that effort becomes expected and not appreciated. And that's when women cheat on guys, when the guy is, like, constantly, because those are all a form of chasing. When you're constantly, like, making concessions, let's say movies. For instance, like, you know, a woman would be happier watching an action movie. On the third movie, you know, like, let's say she wanted to watch a rom.com, and you came. You're like, okay, fine, I'll watch a rom.com. second one. Okay, you know, we can watch that. And the third one, you're like, no, tonight we'll watch an action movie. She's gonna be happier watching that shitty movie that she doesn't like because she's next to a fucking man that she respects than watching some stupid fucking rom.com with some guy that she feels like is a yemenite pushover, very pliable.

People want boundaries. Like, you want that, too. I want that. Like, I like a submissive woman, but I still want her to have, like.

Some sense of absolute doormat.

Well, I want her to have some sense of self. Like, I want to know who she is. You know? Like, I want she. Like, she needs to stand up for something once in a while.

There's a sort of degree of untrustworthiness to someone that's if I can't trust you or no, how can I trust you? Yes. My favorite example of this is Alex Holmande Mosey. So Layla, his wife, is big into fashion, and she gets dressed up, and she's, you know, makeup and new hair, and she's, like, a fashion y sort of chick. Alix wears shorts, a wife beater, and crocs with long socks. And he said, it's a really interesting point, that Layla is more attracted to me wearing the things that I want to wear than wearing the things that she wants me to wear. She's way more attracted to the guy that does what he wants to do, even if it's not what she wants.

To do, because that's a real person. Correct. That's unique to him. That's what makes him him.

This is an interesting point that I really want to try and dig into. We've got this, and I think a lot of people will feel this tension between authenticity and presenting yourself in the most appropriate way without being so contrived and sort of deceitful and manipulative that the person that shows up on the date is actually a million miles away from who you really are? How do you think about that balance between authenticity and cultivating sort of the best version of you to put that foot forward? You know what I mean?

I do. I think it's a great question. A good point. It's so. I mean, there's different levels to this stuff, and there's different, you know, part. So I think a common mistake that guys make is they're like, you know what? I'm just gonna be honest with her. I'm just gonna, like, tell her how I feel. And, like, you know, I mean, and so they go in there and they're like, you know what? Like, you're the, you know, spend two dates and, like, I really fucking like you, and I want to, you know, monogamously. They just, like, overstep too early, and it's like, yeah, okay. That's honest. But are you really that honest? Like, the next time you guys walk out on a date and you see a girl with big tits, you're gonna tell her, like, you know, oh, damn. Like, that girl has really nice tits. I was thinking about fucking her. Like, there's limits to, like, what you're. You know, you could overshare. Right. And so I think you should be honest and that you should be honest. And that's, like, a cornerstone of my belief system. Like, I am, like, unapologetically honest.

So I am, like, if a girl asks me a question, I am, like, ruthlessly honest. So that's something that I for sure believe in. And I don't believe in, like, kind of presenting, you know, false narratives or, like, acting, you know, like, somebody that you're nothing not. But I do believe in being the best version of yourself. And also in playing fucking poker. They're playing poker. You can play poker. It's okay. It's a bit of a game until you have sex, and then you have to decide if you want to date. So I think this idea, you owe them the entire truth about every single thing that you're thinking all the time before you even get to know them, is just kind of a nonsense.

So there's this sort of a little bit of a tension between truly being yourself, standing up for the things that you want. Maybe wearing the crocs is a preference for you and might make her more attracted, even if it's not the thing that she would want, whilst also not being a completely sort of open vessel and totally transparent.

I see what you're saying. I think Alex gets away with that because he has value in so many other areas. Like, if he wasn't rich, if it wasn't smart, if he wasn't successful, wasn't confident, if he wasn't all these other things, you know, if. If. If he didn't have preselection, like, obviously other women probably want him. Like, there's a whole thing, right? Social status. You know, he's got a lot of attraction triggers.

They can get away with that.

I mean, look at me. I look like shit. I have a terrible fucking haircut. I'm wearing a fucking cheap watch. Like, I don't give a fuck, you know? Like, I wear fucking booty hugger shorts. Like, and I still get a ton of pussy.

Like, I think, well, I mean, you know what a counter signal is, right, from psychology? So there's something called the red sneaker effect, which is as CEO's or as people within companies, get hired higher up in terms of their job title. And also, as they become richer at the head founder CEO level, they dress increasingly more casually. So it's like the dude that's just graduated law school, making sure that you call him by his preferred title, the dude with 20 letters after his name. That's a leading brain neurosurgeon and has been for 50 years saying, just call me John. So counter signaling is kind of that. I had this theory, which I think is true, that mustaches are counter signals for guys, that it's basically them saying, I've got so much surplus mate value that I can, like, retard myself with this thing on my upper lip and still pull. And it's kind of the same with the crocs. It's kind of the same with, yeah.

That'S like high level game. That's like, okay. I'm like, it's kind of like this guy, I saw some YouTube videos of him, and he will go up to girls and just say fucking retarded shit to open and have success. And it's kind of like he's signaling that what you're saying is not that important, but he's doing it with such a degree of confidence. And then he also follows up the conversation with being a semi normal human being, and he's also good looking and all this stuff. But I guess the point is that sometimes if you are confident and you've got this stuff down to a science, I mean, me and my friends, we would just basically give each other the line that we would have to go up to a girl with, and it was just. Just fucking atrocious. Like really, really stupid, offensive, dumb shit, you know? And we just have to deliver that. We'd have to deliver it deadpan. We couldn't say, oh, my friend bet me to say this, and we would have crazy success with that. We would actually have better success with that than we would if we went.

On your own line with.

Well, with what the world thinks is correct to say, you know, and so it. So I think you have a point, but I think that you have to get to a certain level to do that.

Get round out the pre selection thing for me. I don't think we'd close. Close that leap.

Okay, so preselection is basically like women believing that other hot women want to sleep with you. So, you know, jealousy would be them being jealous of other women and seeing it. You know, pre selection is kind of like, I don't know, if a girl sees that you have 4 million Instagram followers, she's just going to assume that girls want to fuck you right? Because you have a level of fame, whatever like and so I think pre selection you know and then there's like, you know visual forms of it. Like I would show up at the club with two or three girls that were like sitting on my lap that like, you know I had hooked up with that were like trying to kiss me, all this stuff and then like women would just come up. I could literally just like do like a come here and go fuck a girl in the bathroom without even talking to her sometimes because the pre selection was so strong. So its not something that I would like say every guys, im just saying you should understand all the different traction triggers and theres ways to like trigger stuff too.

Like lets say on an Instagram story you just took a picture of your beer glass and a martini glass next to it and that was it and that was your story. Now girls would be like who's he with? You know, who, who's that girl? Or maybe there was just like a, you saw a nail you know like or a ring or something, you know in the, in the photo it's like you could trigger jealousy and you could trigger pre selection without like being in your face. Like I said, I'm not like telling people to do the shit that I did. You know, you don't have to be there with fucking 30 girls and all this stuff. Like I obviously like went to a circus level extreme but mine was more like solving for fame and it was like abundance and it was like a lifestyle and then it was a brand and it was a whole thing. So, so like what I did had a reason behind it and also I was just, that was part of my life. I just wanted to live this crazy fucking life and I was documenting it and it was like a bucket list thing.

But like I don't think I optimized for getting laid. Like I had tons of fucking girls but I would not say my instagram optimized for getting laid. And it's certainly not for like the highest quality of girls either. Like super hot. Yes, you know but like not the best like quality. Like almost like, like filtered that out almost. And so I wouldn't recommend that.

What was some of the more surprising realizations or reflections or attraction trigger insights that you had when going through this? What were the things that you go, oh actually I didn't realize that and I didn't realize that and I didn't.

Realize that the biggest one was just how powerful the difference was between you know, pursuing and being pursued, that was probably the most, like, when I really broke it down because I realized, like, on the one side, it's like, you know, when you're chasing, your flaws are magnified. But I didn't realize, like, that also, the opposite effect was true. When a girl's chasing you, her flaws are magnified and your flaws disappear. And, like, the exponential effect of switching that.

Does that mean that guys, if they do become a little bit more successful, they make themselves the pursued as opposed to the pursuer that they kind of need to reframe a little? Well, fixating on weight, like, she's got a wrinkly elbow. Like, shut the fuck up. Like, why? That doesn't need to be that.

No, it's more just the sense of being more discerning. Like being, like, you know, picky with who you want to be with. Not just revolutionary, not yet. Not just accepting a girl's looks. Like that's a big thing. There's a big mistake the guys make. I see so many fucking guys that are just with a girl. Cause she's hot and it's like, dude, with a hundred million dollars, you're a smart guy, you're successful, and you're dating a little fucking hooker because she's pretty. And I think guys need to get out of that mindset and start digging deeper and start, like, making girls prove themselves, making the girls compete, you know, like, I mean, being the wife or girlfriend of a guy that's worth hundreds of millions of dollars, that's smart and successful. Like, that's a prize.

Like that for the people that are $100 million.

Yeah, that's just. That's an extreme example.

Yeah. Earns normal money.

Yeah. So for the normal guys, I mean, it's the same concepts, right? Like, and honestly, like, most of the girls that are dating, those guys are cheating on those guys. With the normal guys, they're fucking the pool guy, they're fucking the poor guy. Like, a lot of times they're cheating with those other guys and so you don't have to have the money, the status. I'm just saying that's one where there's, like, a big disparity and they're not taking advantage of the fact that, like, they could have a better relationship with the girl if they just framed it differently and treated the girl a little bit differently and didn't, like, over chase. Cause when you're chasing something, it can't chase you back. That's another, like, key point too, is like, the moment you start pursuing, they can't pursue you. So I've had women that were, like, literally, like, chasing after me. And the moment I, like, showed them too much interest, it, like, oh, shit.

Like, killed the attraction.

Well, I can have them now. You know, it's real. Like, shit. Now I have the question. Do I want to fuck Dan Bilzerian? Like, you know, he wants to fuck me. Maybe that's enough. And I think with a lot of girls that just alone can be enough.

The validation. I wonder as well, how many. How many girls you're kind of selecting for that are psychologically unhealthy, healthy for whom that is such an immediate turn off.

Well, like, psychology transcends all of this stuff. It's true. Whether you're damaged, whether you're 100% put together. Like, humans just respond. Like, you know, like, every human responds to an auction. You know, like, when you're. When you're buying something you want to, like, you know, every house that you buy, you want to have an inspection. Like, we're just wired the same way. Like, as much as we want to think that we're, like, very different. Like, humans are herd animals. I mean, you saw that during COVID seen that numerous times with how much the media can sway. So, like, we are herd animals and people react. Psychology is psychology. So, you know, like, a super smart girl is still not immune to intermittent positive reinforcement. You know, like, there are certain principles that are going to apply regardless.

I wonder how many girls that are listening are thinking, yeah, there's been guys that were perfect for me. Everything was right, and he just got too keen. And there's some switch that kind of gets to turned off. And I wish that that wasn't the case. I wish that it wasn't the case that when a guy shows too much interest in me, that there's something kind of odd going on. So very much that push and pull, that sort of balance between the 260, 40, 70 as opposed to 1000.

And that's the problem is, like, it's okay to show interest and you should show interest and there should be some push pull. That's the problem is there's not usually push pull. It's usually one person is chasing and then. And it's usually the guy. And the girls like, okay, well, you know, fucking 29, you know, I kind of want to have kids. Like, you know, it's. Maybe it's time to stop fucking athletes. Like, this guy's really nice, you know? And then she goes into the relationship with the wrong frame. You know, like, she could end up with the same guy and be happy if he just behaved slightly differently. And I'm not saying like, he should be manipulative or gamey or whatever, but it's just like, don't do certain things. You know what I mean? Like, wait a little bit for this, you know, like, don't jump the gun. Like, you know, just have some fucking.

Talk to me about the admin. Is there any way to make the admin easier?

What do you mean the admin?

Well, you're dating, you're speaking to girls, the back and forth. It's like another inbox to manage with a couple of chicks that you're speaking to. Maybe you go for a date with this one, so on and so forth. For a lot of guys, I think that that can get kind of like, tiresome and exhausting. I certainly know a good few of my friends who, when they have gotten into relationships, you know, they're happy that they found someone that cares for them, and they're happy that they're with somebody that they can spend evenings with and go on holiday with. And they're very, very happy that they no longer have to do the additional mailbox admin of rya or tinder or bumble or hinge or whatever.

Yeah, I mean, it's going to be work to find the right partner, but if you want to find somebody that's going to bear your children, I'd say it's a pretty fucking important decision. If you want to find somebody to stick your dick in that's just hot, then, you know, maybe less important. So, you know, it's just kind of like, to me, like, who you choose to spend the rest of your life with is the most important decision you'll ever make in your life. Who you choose to date is probably the second most important decision, right? So, I mean, yeah, it can be time consuming for sure, and it's. And that sucks. That is a shitty part of it. And there's ways to, like, you know, fucking lower that time. And that's one of the things that I want to do too, is like, just give people better results with less effort, and in lowering the effort, they're saving more of their time. But, yeah, I mean, I don't know if there's a shortcut to, like, you know, just immediately finding the right one. I don't think I have that cheat.

Code, but do you have an idea about how much time and attention should be spent by keeping things taking over digitally versus trying to get dates to happen? Did you get into cadence of seeing each other all of that kind of stuff.

No, not into the real nuanced stuff like that. I didn't do a ton of online dating, so that wasn't really my thing. I teach guys the social media optimization and how to use your socials, know, not posting fucking 20 stories, you know, and, like, if you're going to post, like, you know, have some time between posts, your engagement is better. And, like, you know, don't do needy posts. And if you're gonna, you know, if you really want to post and, like, brag about your car, like, make the post not just about your fucking car. You know what I'm saying? Like, there's ways to show. Communicate the things that you want to communicate. Communicate attraction triggers without being, like, really braggy or on the nose about it. And I think captions help. There's like, I mean, social media is like a whole separate thing that I kind of, like, cover. But I think if I were to, like, summarize the social media, it would be like, more like, you know, communicating the things that you want to communicate without overtly bragging, which is kind of funny coming from me, but very rich.

What are the big pitfalls that guys do when it comes to the online social media?

I mean, look, who do you brag to? You brag to people that you're trying to impress. And so if you're trying to impress people, then they kind of, like, have to be above you, right? So if you're social media is, like, really braggy, then you're going to kind of come off as insecure. So you can communicate value, you can show that, you know, you live in a nice house, you can show that you have a fun life. You can show cool stuff. But the way to do it isn't necessarily, like, be standing in front of your corvette with four stacks of cash, you know, like, there's just ways to show things without tell that to rappers.

All of the rappers?

Yeah, well, you know, their whole net worth because they're wearing it at all points. At times, it's almost like a, like, indicator, you know, like Ir's, this guy's got 400,000. But, yeah, they're an extreme example. But I still see a lot of guys, like, make a lot of mistakes on social media. And I think social media is, you know, it's a powerful dating app. It's, you know, the thing about social.

Media is we're talking primarily Instagram here, I'm gonna guess.

Yeah, I mean, TikTok doesn't even allow you to message somebody that's not following you, which is kind of crazy. They don't even, like, tap into the dating element of it, but whatever. And, yeah, my experience has been most of Instagram, so, um, yeah, with ig, it's kind of like when you do a story, you're indirectly almost texting every single girl on your phone without communicating any interest. Right. And then if they respond to your story because you post something fucking cool or something, you know, that causes FOMO or they wish they were there, whatever. Now they're, you know, maybe they heart the story, and now they have started the interaction, so now they're chasing. Right. So, like, there's an example of, like, how you can do something very subtly. Like, obviously, like, posting one story would be a lot easier than texting every girl on your phone. So there's ways to, like, save time with this, you know, and still, like, you know, get in their mind, have them thinking about you. Communicate value, build, attraction, action. And so, yeah, social media is a tool. I don't choose to use it, but that doesn't mean it's not valuable.

How can guys set expectations more effectively? You've mentioned about being honest and truthful, but a lot of the time, there's kind of a big discomfort, there's bravery encouraged that's needed from guys to be able to do that. How can they set expectations? And how can they learn to be more open and honest and truthful?

Um, I. I think you're saying set. Set expectations. Kind of like set boundaries.

No, expect. This is what I want. This is the sort of thing, this is going to be serious. This is not going to be serious. I'm looking for the mother of my kids. I'm just looking for something that is casual. Someone asks you, are you seeing other people? Etc. Etcetera, like, how do you set those expectations?

Well, for me, I'm brutally honest. Like, I'm just brutally honest about it. Like, if I'm seeing other people, I. And she asks, then I tell her. So that's my approach. And I think when you do that, you also sub communicate confidence because you're telling them that the truth is more important than, you know, whether or not they walk. And that's, to me, is like, you know, that's not why I do it. I just do it because that's my moral code, and that's just how I operate. And honesty is, like, super, super fucking important to me. Like, in a partner, it's actually, like, you know, really, really high on the fucking list, so. And in order to ask for that, I have to offer it myself. That being said, it doesn't mean I'm telling these guys to, like, just blurt out every thought that comes into their mind. But, you know, if a girl asks a hard question, fucking be honest, you know? And if they walk, then they walk. And I think being willing to let them walk, I think the common mistake that guys make. And I think this is one of the reasons why, like, almost every girl that I've ever dated doesn't have anything bad to say about me because I never bullshit them.

And I think a lot of guys in La sell the dream. They tell girls that like, oh, you know, you could be the one or I'm going to take you to meet my, you know, they just say all this bullshit. They say whatever they think the girl wants to hear so they can fuck them or say they can string them along and date the three or four girls. And I was just, you know, that wasn't my school of thought. I was always just like, brutally honest. And because I was honest, it made the girls like, oh, shit. And I also set a standard of what was acceptable, too. And I set a crazy fucking standard because at one time I had a girl ask me, like, how many girls have you slept with this week? Or how many girls have you, you know, have you, you know, slept with any other girls? And I was like, in what timeframe? Sorry, that's. I jumped the gun a little bit. She's like, you know, have you been sleeping any other girls? And I was like, you know, in what timeframe are we talking about? And she, she goes, I don't know, in the last week?

And I was like, yes. And she's like, how many? And I was like, four. She goes, you slept with four girls in the last week? It's like, yeah, but I use condoms, you know? And then she was just like, that was it for her. That was like her red line and she was fucking out. But two days later she came back. And you know what? When she. After she fucking came back, she thought, thought about it. She had processed it and she was like, you know what? Like, I just really respect the fact that you just are going to shoot me straight. And I know that whatever you tell me after this point is going to be true because, like, nobody would fucking tell the truth about that and then lie about anything, anything else, right? And because of that, I was able to have a relationship where I dated her and was able to sleep with whoever I wanted and she never gave me shit about it. And she respected the honesty. And that was an unusual thing, but it was because of the raw honesty up front.

I wonder how many girls would find it sort of refreshing, even if it's something that they maybe don't want to hear for the truth to be sort of subplane.

I mean I would, I mean I always ask and this is like, you know, people think this is crazy, but I ask girls, you know, usually within the first five minutes of talking to them how many guys have slept with. I asked them like what the slightest thing they've done with the most fucked up thing. Like I just get right to the heart of it, you know, and I just, because that's interesting to me. Like most of what I, you know, talk to models about is not that interesting, but like what her body count is or what she says her body count is, is interesting because it tells me like what kind of lie she's going to tell, you know, and it's like, but if she says like a number like, you know, 73, then it's like okay, shit, like this girl's honest, right? But any, any like low number, I just assume that she lying and then I'll process it, you know, and then like later on it's like, you know, you know, maybe I can catch her. And if I, if I catch a girl in one lie then I kind of like don't trust them from that point on.

But like I said, I like to ask questions like that to get to the heart of, you know, kind of like, you know, what their value system is. Like, you know, how honest they are, like how crazy they are, how fun they are, how sexually liberated they are, like whatever it is and like it won't always blow them out. Like I'm nothing. A guy that says that girls only, you know, can sleep with three guys or not can take them seriously, whatever. Like for me, like I said, honesty is like fucking up here. Their body count is like more down here.

Are there any other big attraction triggers that we haven't covered?

Well, I mean there's a decent amount of attraction triggers. I mean some of them are, you know, are going to be ones that you would know, like, you know, looks or money or, you know, whatever, but you know, they're in the status. There's preselection, there's, you know, there's other ones that are somewhat counterintuitive. They're static, there's um, you know, leader of men. There's, you know, there's a bunch of different ones that will, you know, trigger traction on different scales, but sometimes just one attraction trigger is enough. Like pre selection alone could just be enough. You know, humor sometimes could just be enough. Like, it just, you know, it just depends on how strong it is. But that's one of the things, like, identify what attraction triggers you have and then kind of like, lean on those or favor interactions that would favor those attraction triggers.

So if you're a particularly funny guy, don't go to nightclubs when no one can hear you speak.

Exactly, exactly. Like, play to your strong suits, you know, like, if you're a really unattractive guy, then, you know, maybe, like, dating apps are probably not going to be the best thing for you, you know, or like, you know, or nightclubs also, you know, because nightclubs, I think a lot of times, you know, your initial, um, you know, reception is going to be partially based on, look, so what.

Would your advice be to unattractive guys?

Um, I mean, it depends on what their attributes are, you know, because I've seen a lot of unattractive guys with really high girls. And so, I mean, if they're rich, then they can use their money in many different ways to create, you know, pipelines of girls coming in. So then you can have jealousy, you can have pre selection, you can have competition, you know, all these things. And, you know, you can create scarcity. I mean, money is a powerful tool. Just most guys use it the wrong way. They'll go, like, buy a girl a purse or they'll, you know, I mean, just stupid shit that actually hurts them.

We spoke about this a year ago, and it seemed to me that when you were thinking this through, the hypothesis that there's kind of two buckets, there's kind of the every guy, normal guy stuff, and then there's this other kind of elite level lifestyle design type guy. What's interesting or unique or what's the setup for that guy that's maybe got fewer limitations.

Yeah, I mean, that would be, for me, the more fun to do more, you know, one on one stuff with, because I can make a significant impact in his life. And most rich guys are used to using their money to get what they want. But in dating, a lot of times, rich guys use their money and it cuts against them.

How so?

Well, right and wrong, they'll give a girl an allowance straight off the bat, you know, which is good for control, but it's not good for respect, you know, and, and I think, or they'll buy them purses before they've slipped a slept with them. And then the girl put, there's three buckets. There's guys that girls want to fuck. There's guys that girls want to date and then there's both, right? What you don't want to be in is the bucket of I want to date them but I don't really want to fuck them. That's the bucket that you fall into when you buy your purse before you fucking have sex with her. And so then she looks at you like how much can I get from this guy? She looks at you like more like a meal ticket or a sucker. And the moment she does that, then all of a sudden you have to be below her because shes taken advantage of you. I see more guys use their money incorrectly to hurt them than I see them use it to help them. If you use your money to help you, I mean, skys the limit.

Im a good example of whats possible if you deploy capital correctly. Obviously that wasnt the only attraction trigger that I had and I really dedicated a lot of my life to my sex addiction. But like, you know, if you create a good environment, I mean, it's going to just make this massively accelerate. It's going to make it a lot easier and then also you're going to have the pre selection to work with. That's going to trigger the better women to chase you and you're going to have a better relationship if the girl chase you, the more girl, the more you can get a girl to chase you before you know, you guys are in a serious relationship. And even in the relationship, the more she's going to respect you, the more she's going to value you. Like you know, there's, there's relationships where this guy, you know, is, is massively higher value than the girl, but because he behaves a certain way, the girl not only doesn't respect him, but she's more likely to cheat on him versus that same guy and that same girl. If he acted correctly, that girl will be doing everything that she could to keep that guy happy.

She'd be waking him up with blowjobs, should be doing all this stuff. She would look at him as much more of a prize. It's the same guy, but if he just acted correctly and didn't, you know, do these common mistakes that these fucking rich guys do.

Have you tried to use theory of mind to put yourself into the position of a guy that's a little bit more anxiously attached than you, someone for whom, when their partner maybe doesn't message back for a little while or the girl that they're speaking to or whatever, that they kind of get activated and they sort of want to push in a lot more. It's all well and good for you. Sort of semi subjective, sociopath dating man to cut through. It doesn't matter, working in this rational, robotic kind of way, but emotions happen for some guys, and that's going to arise, and it creates a compulsion. It motivates them to behave in ways or deal with uncertainty 100%.

Look, I can lead a horse to water. I can't make him drink. I could tell him what's correct if he doesn't choose to do it, because he can't control his impulse and his emotions and he has a bad result, that's on him. So, like, I mean, yeah, and that's, that's the problem is that, you know, when a guy feels a girl's pulling away, he's much more likely to massively engage and chase and chase. And that's actually what is going to send her right off the fucking planet, right. That is going to send her out of the orbit of a girl that he's ever going to get back with. And so, yeah, you're right. That is his instinct. And that's one of the things that he needs to not do, is when the girl is pulling away, he needs to not over chase, right. He needs to just, like, chill the fuck out, take his annex, play cool, you know, and, like, not text her 50 fucking times that night. Like, you ever seen swingers?

No.

You never seen that movie? You gotta watch it. Anyways, this fucking guy, like, you gotta watch the movie. He, like, calls his ex, and he's constantly, like, leaving messages on the recording. And anyways, when he stops caring, then she wants him back. But it's a classic movie. You gotta watch swingers, Vince Vaughn. Anyways, point is that, yeah, I mean, that would be a classic example of a bad behavior pattern that is gonna lead him to a bad result.

I asked Jocko how to get over a break. Wake up, and what do you say?

Work out at 03:00 a.m. yeah, I.

Mean, there was like, do jiu jitsu, go for runs, lift weights. Like, pretty much it. Get up at 430 in the morning. But also he said, walk away and don't look back. And this clip went, like, super duper viral. And it's him saying, walk away and don't look back. If she's the right one, walk away and don't look back. If she's not the right one, walk away and don't look back. Because if she's the right one, she'll come back. Back around. Like, who knew that Jocko Willink and Dan Bilzerian, we're going to arrive at the same piece of dating advice that wasn't on my 2024 bingo card.

Yeah, I mean, it is true, though. I mean. I mean, and you've probably seen this, right? When you broke up with a girl and she's like, okay, and walked and you're kind of like, shit, you know, but she's like, come on, baby, like, let me make this work. It just pushes you away further.

That's a, that's a good point, actually. You know, we've spoken an awful lot about, um, starting things, but how can guys be good enders? Like, do you have any scripts or formats to follow when it's time to bring something to a close?

That's not usually a problem most of these guys are gonna have, but.

Yeah, but if you're gonna, if you get good at the inflow, you're gonna have to get good at the outflow.

I agree.

Unless you're gonna begin spinning a fucking ton of plates.

I agree. And so for that, I mean, once again, it goes back to honesty, you know, it's just. But try and. Try and let them down easily. Tell them about the things that they can change. But there's no, like, if, if the reason that you, and I'm not saying this is right, but if the reason that you broke up with this chick is she just really wasn't hot enough and you want to fuck other girls, you probably shouldn't tell her, baby, you're just not hot enough. I want to fuck other girls. Right. So there's like, limitations. You don't want to, like, ruin her self esteem, but if she has been too clingy and she's been very annoying, then you can be honest about her and you can tell her, look, like you're just driving me nuts. You're, you know, you're checking my phone all the time. You're doing this, you're doing that, and I just, it's not making me happy and I, you know, and I want to break up. Like, you can tell her things that she can change, but what I wouldn't recommend is telling her things that she has no control over that's just going to ruin her self esteem because that doesn't do you any good and doesn't do her any good.

So. Yeah, and don't do it over text, you know, be a fucking man. Like, you know, have the conversation. Conversation. But if you've made up your mind, then I would say make up your mind. And if you, and if for some reason in this breakup, she's convinced you that you should take her back. I would say at a minimum say I want one week break. No talking, no communicating, no social media shit. Just one week, no contact. And at the end of that week you're gonna have a pretty good idea of how much you her how much, you know what I mean? You valued her interactions, like how much that stuff really bothered you know you just sometimes time is the best thing. And by doing that you also have a week where it's like it's not so final on your end either. Like you could get her back if you want to, which makes it actually easier for you to end thing, right. And for her it's like a little bit less of a fucking, you know like immediate severing. So she's going to go less crazy in that week. So you know, I think that's a good strategy sometimes.

But if its just like inconsolable and shes just terrible or you just want to break up with her, then I just dont string her along. Just tell her the truth and im going to move on. And theres just no getting back together.

Getting back to your current lifestyle situation is kids on the horizon? Do you want to have kids?

Its not something I really think about. A lot of people ask me that. My brother has three kids. Maybe ill get there right now. Now I am deriving happiness from helping other people out and so I'm focusing on that and I know the kids is kind of like a part of.

That but that's the ultimate helping other people out, right? It's your own genetic lineage a little bit.

But I think you have to have the right girl and you know that's the first step. You know, a lot of people decide they want to have kids and it's like, okay, well you got with who? Yeah exactly. It's like. And that's a very important piece. Sometimes finding the right girl will make you want to have kids. You know, sometimes finding the wrong girl make you not want. It's like I don't want to have more of these people on the planet.

Yeah, I mean you know it's interesting how many boss pitch CEO's then find a guy that they didn't think existed and turn into a very happy mom. Or how many dudes that were maniac business people in their twenties and their thirties find a woman that's the love of their life and go, my priorities have changed. I realized that so many of my businesses were surrogate children.

I think there's a lot more of the latter than the former. And I think the problem that a lot of these, like, boss bitch CEO girls are going to find is that by the time they want to have kids, it's like much higher chance of autism. All these other things. And they've also kind of like, you know, not cultivated a lot of things that would probably help them be a good mother. So I think this, like, detachment from traditional male female roles is another one of the problems that we have, too. And I think it's okay for a woman to work, and I think it's okay for a woman to be a mom, you know, or both. But I don't. I think both is tough. And I don't think that you can ever be a good mom if you have a full time job either. So I would, you know, say if kids are a priority, then, you know, maybe focus on, you know, doing more like, of those sort of things, like, you know, being a housewife, you know, cooking, you know, doing those sort of things. If that's what you enjoy and you enjoy, you know, taking care of kids, that that's a valuable role.

And a successful guy would probably much rather have a woman that would want to do that versus work part time and then get a nanny and maybe feed the kids after work when she's tired. You know, it's just like, I don't think that's healthy.

What advice would you give to women who want to attract a guy that's worthy and that is going to treat them well and how can they also be more attracting to guys?

The first thing is, I would say be more honest with yourself of what you actually want. You know, I think a lot of women say that they want all these things, and then there's a lot of those, a lot of guys that fit that criteria that are just invisible to them. And so, you know, like the nice guy. I want a guy that's honest. You know, you can go to fucking Walmart, and there's probably a lot of those guys won't even see them. Not to say that you should go, like, marry some guy from fucking Walmart, but I'm just saying there's a lot of, like, nice, trustworthy guys that maybe aren't quite as attractive that these women won't give the time of day or maybe they're less successful or whatever, but that guy would fucking die for you. You know what I mean? So, like, if that's on your big priority list and, like, loyalty and honesty and all these things, then it's like, okay, maybe focus more on that. But I think what they tend to focus more on is status and, you know, looks and, you know, kind of like, uh, what's, what's hot in the market, you know, whatever or what their friends would think would be good or what, you know, it's just.

And so be true to yourself. Like, if that's really what you want, then look for that. You know, give one of these guys a fucking chance. You know? God knows if he's like, you know, one of these, like, guys that don't have a lot of options, he's probably like, never going to cheat on you and treat you like fucking gold and cut off his arm for you, you know? And it's like, if you're a woman that values loyalty, then, you know, maybe go looking for loyalty. Don't go looking for, you know, the fucking basketball player. You know?

I've been thinking about cultivating receptiveness for women. Like, that's one, I think, pretty uncontroversial piece of advice. So in a post metoo world where any normal, sane, sort of respectful guy treats a no as a fuck no or anything that is shy of kind of a yes, as this could be a bad situation waiting to happen in a headline, I I think that women are still, they've got some conceptual inertia from the why men love bitches. Treat him like you don't like him, sort of nineties into noughties, dating advice that was very widely distributed to women. And they need to realize that the environment that they find themselves in is guys that a lot of the time are kind of scared of making a woman uncomfortable. First off, because if you're not a piece of shit who wants to make a woman feel uncomfortable. Secondly, because you're terrified of being a hash metoo thing. Thirdly, because you've been massively under socialized, because you spend all of your time on social media, social media, you got this huge, big stack all on top. And I think treating men as a woman like me, fucking mansplaining, treating men as kind of like particularly slow golden retrievers that need bigger signals than you might think.

So in the sort of aristocratic era of Great Britain, ladies would drop a handkerchief in front of the gentleman that they wanted, and it's an easy opportunity for the guy to, oh, miss mom mom and hand that back over. Sort of, what's the 2024 equivalent of that? You know, a lingering gaze that lasts a bit longer than you think, so that you go, I mean, that's. She's either got something in her eye or she wants me to go over, you know what I mean? So cultivating receptiveness, I think, is like a cool, a cool idea.

That would be one. I also think that, like just kind of being more proactive as a woman because of the current dating, you know, like you said, you know, guys are scared. You know, like they're usually, they get a lot of negative reception. A lot of guys don't know what to do, so they have bad results. And so maybe as a woman, just, you know, don't go hitting on guys, but just go have a conversation with them. You'd be surprised at how much more receptive men are to, you know, a reasonably attractive woman coming up and trying to have a conversation with them, you.

Know, and it's like, maybe they wouldn't be that surprised at how receptive men would be to a reasonably attractive woman.

Going, yeah, but then why not do it, you know, like, so that, because they don't really, because what's, what's, what's the downside? Right? Like for a guy, there's a lot of downside. You get rejected, you get embarrassed. It's like this. It's that. But like for a woman, why not just go have a conversation?

Hit rates definitely going to be higher. Did you see yesterday that french athlete Elise Fino who proposed to her husband after winning a gold?

I did. I did. Did.

That caused a big sort of shitstorm on Twitter with women saying, I would never do this guy, saying, you've basically just been cooked in front of the entire world. Other people saying, well, this is super romantic. You know, she's just achieved her dream in terms of career. Now she's going to achieve her dream in terms of family. What did you make of that? And the subsequent response?

It's interesting. You know, my first reaction was kind of like, what the fuck? But then, I mean, look, if she's more successful than him and she's the winner, I mean, look, at the end of the day, im not a big proponent of marriage because I think it makes your relationship more transactional and more financially based because basically what youre doing, if youre a rich guy and you get married, youre putting a bounty on the relationship. Its like, okay, she wants to get a divorce. Like now she gets $100 million. Youre putting a reward on that. And so for her, maybe if shes the breadwinner and maybe she has more money, then shes making more of a sacrifice by getting married and shes putting more of her finances on the line, you know, like maybe this guy's a fucking backup dancer or something, you know, or mechanic at automart, you know, and she's making 2300 grand a year. Then in that scenario, I actually think it's, you know, it's okay, right. And it's surprising come for me, because I'm a very, like, traditional conservative guy. But, I mean, I don't know, what if she's worth a hundred million dollars?

Not. Not that she was. I'm just saying, like, in a relationship, like, if a woman was worth $100 million, then maybe she should propose because she's the one giving up, you know, the most.

I mean, I don't think you take her son and they.

Well, I don't know about that, but, like, you know, I think who has the most money definitely makes a big difference. I mean, because that's really, at the end of the day, you're getting the government involved in your relationship and you're bringing the finances into it, right? Like, if you want to get a divorce, you know, you're going to. And then it's messy, you're going to have lawyers, you're going to be in court, and you're going to be fighting over money. That's how it is.

There's certainly going to be more conversations around this, and I. I wonder how female and feminist culture is going to deal with marriages where women, on average, out earn their male counterpart. Women between ages of 21 and 29 earn, on average, 1111 pounds more than men do. So the gender pay gap is largely a motherhood tax. It's when women hit motherhood and then they have to take maternity leave, they take time away, they have different priorities, et cetera, cetera. Two women for every one man completing a four year us college degree by 2030. The gap that we had between men going to college and women going to college 50 years ago when title ix was brought in to encourage women going to college, has now been reversed and broken through in the other direction. So the gap is now bigger in favor of women going to university than it was for men when they implemented title iX, which. Which was this big, world changing idea so that we could get more women into college. And downstream from that, the people that go to college get paid more on average. I know that college isn't everything, blah, blah, blah.

You can make as much money as sparky or as a plumber or as an electric whatever, but you're going to end up with way more women being the breadwinners in households. So I think it's going to be an interesting role reversal when you go, okay. What's happening with marriage now? Is it making an honest woman of someone when the woman out earns the mandev? How does sort of a lot of the modern talking points that women have been given, how does that play together? You know what I mean?

Yeah, I mean, it's a strange thing that I never thought that I would be discussing. You know, to me, I think this is probably the reason why our birth rate is declining, you know? Yeah, like I said, I'm more conservative. I think the, you know, the men traditionally should be out, you know, making the fucking money and doing that. I mean, if you don't want to have kids, I guess both people can work.

What a beautiful future that is for everybody. Just feeding the capitalist machine.

I mean, that's kind of the thing, right? Is where does that end? So, you know, I don't know. I thought it was okay, you know, that the men went out and worked and the women, you know, had kids and raised families. I mean, I thought that worked pretty good. It worked for thousands of years, but apparently maybe that's, you know, not what people want to do now. And so I don't know. I. You know, like I said, I'm not a big proponent of marriage just because I think it unnecessarily puts strain on the relationship and puts pressure on the relationship and makes it more about money than it should be. But I guess, to your point, if the woman is making more money than maybe she's the one that should be proposing.

Wow. Who knew? Dan Bilzerian says women should propose more. Where should people go? You got all of this new stuff happening. What's launching, what's sort of coming up from you protocol.

I have a supplement line coming out that is no artificial ingredients. So, like, no artificial sweeteners, nothing. And that was one of the big issues that I had when I would take supplements before, is they had so much artificial sweetener that it was just kind of like, mess with my stomach. And so, um, yeah, came out with a full supplement line that has no artificial sweeteners and no bullshit in there. And that's should be done, I think, on the 20th. So probably around about the time this comes out, should be available protocol.com. and then Sigma society is the. Is the guy thing to help them out. Give them, like, the roadmap and. And help them with just the mistakes that they're making and the bad roadmap. I mean, like I said, I think they have a fucking roadmap that has Canada in the south and they're fucking, you know, going south. They're trying to get to Canada, and it's not going to happen. So I'm going to give him a correct map.

Hell, yeah. I appreciate you, man. Thank you for.