Hey, guys. Are you ready for some money rehab?

Wall Street has been completely upended by an unlikely player, Gamestop. And should I have a 401k? Because then I- You don't do it? No, I never- No. You think the whole world revolves around you and your money? Well, it doesn't. Charge for wasting our time. I will take a check. I got an old-school check. You recognize her from anchoring on CNN, CNBC, and Bloomberg. The only financial expert you don't need a dictionary to understand, Nicole Lappin. Today, we have a very special guest on the show, Jason Pfeiffer, Editor and Chief of Entrepreneur magazine. But More importantly, my co-host on our podcast, Hush Money, and most importantly, my work husband. I truly cannot wait to get started. So I am actually going to bring him on so we can introduce today's topic together as we do. This is so exciting. I am stoked to say, Jason, welcome to Money Rehab.

I am so delighted to be here, Nicole.

This is amazing. This is not our first podcast rodeo, of course. No, it is not. We co-hosted a show together, Hush Money.

I remember it well.

Very well, where we debated all sorts of topics, from who should pay on a first date to whether or not it's kosher to have a secret bank account. But there is one topic that we're going Revisit Today, which is around being transparent with coworkers or even competitors about what you're earning. In other words, do you tell your coworkers what you're making?

Are you asking me that question?

I'm just setting you up. I'm teeing up our revisit of this debate because this was a topic that we actually did for our pilot when we were pitching Hush Money originally. When we first talked about this, Jason, what What is your perspective?

Right. So picture it. I arrive at your apartment with a bunch of recording equipment that I barely know how to use. We set it up in your kitchen, and we recorded this debate in which... Now, I don't remember it specifically about sharing with coworkers. I just remember it more broadly, do you tell other people what you make? And my answer was, no. No, why would you do that? That's a terrible idea. Absolutely not. That was the position that I held for a very long time.

And my answer was, Hell, yes. If you want to talk about money and no one wants to talk about it, then you should go first. And we never had to really lean into different debates because we usually disagree. I mean, naturally. We didn't have to make up the disagreement. But I have just learned that you may have changed your perspective on this. You've come my side, potentially?

I have shifted the way that I think about this. Yes. Nicole, look, I hate to come here and tell you that you're correct. It doesn't bring me any joy.

It's the first time it's ever happened. I'm savoring this.

But I have done it a lot lately. Not, I will admit, with coworkers. That is still tricky area for me. I think that's because for most people, I am the boss at entrepreneur, and I don't know that I can tell people what I make. But even people who I consider to be peers, I don't know what happens when you open that box. I don't know how I feel when I learn that I am making more or less than somebody else. I've learned what most of my colleagues make, of course, because of the level of seniority that I have. But there are some people that I think I'm happier not knowing what they make. Before I get to telling you where I have come to your side of this, first, I want a moment of clarification. When you were working inside of places, like at CNN or whatever, were you and your colleagues talking about what you guys made? Did you know what your colleagues made?

That is a great question. I don't know if those conversations conversations necessarily came up. Actually, no, I'm lying. I remember very vividly going to Houston's in Atlanta, which is where you go.

Great vegie burgers.

Long story short, I remember very vividly being in Houston's with a co-worker from CNN, and yes, talking about what we made. And he made more than I did.

And how did you feel about that?

I felt fine about it. Made me feel like I had a lot of room to grow there, and I could be making more money. Oh, that's interesting. And so I felt great about it. I was curious, so I asked. And I think at CNN, at the time I was making, I don't know, $80,000 a year, and I think he was making $300,000 a year. And so I was like, Awesome. I have more money to make here.

He was so much more experienced than you that you didn't feel like, Wait a second. There's a terrible discrepancy here.

No, no. I felt motivated. So, yes. So to answer your question, I did, even back in my early 20s, talk about how much I made very openly. And then, fast forward a couple of decades later, here we are discussing it, and I didn't even know that I was that comfortable talking about how much I make. And then we had this debate, and then you sent me a voice note, as you do, which is a whole other conversation about why the fuck you send all the seven-minute long voice notes, which I do listen to, by the way. So you sent me one about changing your tune to this debate. Can you tell me how that happened and what is your perspective now?

Yes. It's funny. Perhaps because of sleep deprivation from children, I don't remember exactly what I told you, but I'll tell you what's on my mind right now. Perfect. I went through a big change in my perspective on this, really over the course of a couple of years because of a couple of different things that happened. I'd say the first one was that I started speaking publicly for hire. People would pay me to show up at their event and stand on stage and deliver, roughly speaking, talk that I've given many, many times before. They would pay an absurd, what felt like at the time, an absurd amount of money. The first time somebody paid me, it was $5,000. That felt absurd. Then people started paying me $10,000. That was outrageous. Then 15 and more. I feel like I am scamming people. That's how it feels. Honestly, I got to tell you, it's just how it feels. It is so little work. The amount of work that it used to take me to earn that amount of money was so much more than what it takes now. It just felt like this is so foreign to the way that I thought work and compensation go together that I feel like I can just tell people about this because it is detached from self-value anymore.

I think that that was a big part of the reason that it made me uncomfortable a long time ago. I remember when we were first talking about this, and I was trying to dig into why I was so uncomfortable telling people what I made outside of office politics or whatever. I think part of it is that we attach a lot of our own self-worth to the amount of money that we make. I didn't want to, one, feel worse about myself by learning that other people are making more or potentially make somebody else feel bad about the money that I'm making. I would rather just not touch it. But now that I think about it, I think that that was because that was the salary me. The salary me is surrounded by other salaried people. We are in a hierarchy that we are blind to. That is an uncomfortable place, and you don't know what happens when the light gets turned on. I think that I was rather comfortable being in the and having other people be in the dark about where I was relative to them. Then along comes this other money. This other money didn't feel tied to anything.

I don't think that I am so unbelievable believably amazing that I deserve that money. I mean, I do. I'm not asking you to be like, Jason, you deserve it. I get it. I have worked very hard to be in a position where people will hire me to do that thing. But let's be honest, that's an an absurd amount of money to be paid for what is not a lot of work. I just started telling people. What I found was that some people who were completely outside of that world were like, What? What? Get out of here. That's insane. But then there were other people who are in my line of work who were like, That is very useful information. Thank you very much because here's what I've been negotiating. Here's what I'm getting paid. Now let me tell you about this. Then suddenly we were helping each other. I realized that opening up like this was beneficial to me and to others. That's what cracked the door open.

You love being beneficial to others.

I really do. Sharing this stuff absolutely can be consequential. Not for everybody. I don't walk out onto the streets of Brooklyn and announce what I got paid from some speaking gig or what my book publisher paid me or anything. But I have found now that in settings where I think that this information can be useful to somebody and it's not going to make them feel bad, then I want to share it. Now I've started to share other things. Actually, can I tell you something else that then shifted the experience for me? For the first 18 months of the pandemic, my family, as you know, relocated from Brooklyn, where we live, to Boulder, where my parents were. We went and moved in with my parents. It was quite a thing. Then we made all these friends in Boulder who were brand new to us. As we were making friends with them, big financial things were happening to me. I sold a book. I signed this very large deal with a big tech company. I started to make a bunch of money. Here are these new friends. You No. They felt untied from all the rest of my life, and thus any anxiety that I had about sharing information with them.

Back at home, I'm surrounded by people who are friends from work, or they're friends who I used to work with at another job. Now I make more money than they do, or they make more money than I do, and it feels like, Oh, how did we go right or wrong? Or something. I don't know. But these new friends, they were no context. As I would be negotiating the book deal, I would get dinner with them and I would tell them about what happened. They'd all be like, What? That's crazy. That's amazing. It just felt totally freeing. Then again, once I had done it, once I had the experience of saying a dollar figure to people, and it was interesting. Nothing terrible happened. I didn't feel bad about myself. I didn't feel like I had given away the farm. Then I felt more free to do it in ways that felt more tied, personally, to the wholeness of my life.

Hold on to your wallets, boys and girls. Moneyrehab will be right back.

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Do you know what I'm about to ask you?

If you're about to ask me to reveal a dollar figure on your show, I'm probably not going to do it. I'll be honest with you. But go ahead and ask. What are you going to ask? So how much did you make for the book deal? I'm not going to tell you. But why? I would tell you, I would tell you. Nicole, I would tell you. I am not going to say it on this show. And the reason for that is because... Wait a second. Before I tell you the reason of that, have you said what you got paid for your most recent book? You have? Yeah. I have it in my book.

I have a whole section about my streams of income in Ms. Independent and in all my other books. Thanks for reading that, Jason.

No, I read it in a previous book. I didn't know it was in the most recent book.

Yeah, it sure is.

Look, I would tell you, I would totally I'll tell you, we could talk offline because I'd like to know if you think that I made a good deal, but I think I did. The reason that I don't want to do it publicly is, frankly, because I worry that that information can be used against me in future business deals. I don't really care that your listeners are going to hear how much I'm making from the books. That doesn't really bother me. But what I don't want is for my editor or my agent to hear this and say, Why did you say that? That's going to hurt you because of X, Y, Z reason. I don't know. It feels like I shouldn't have that number out there. Earlier, I was telling you about speaking fees, and the reason why I feel comfortable with those numbers is because I know where I am in the hierarchy of speaking fees, and I know that I can grow, and I feel like anybody who the world of speaking fees could pretty easily guess what I made there. Whereas I feel like I don't know that people could guess what I got from my book.

I just don't know the consequences of sharing it. Which is why I wanted to ask you, have there been any consequences to you sharing that stuff?

No, I don't think so.

I just do it. Has your publisher ever said, Nicole, that is private information. You're not supposed to go shouting that from the rooftops? No. No, I haven't.

I would tell you if I did, if I got reprimanded, I love getting in trouble, as you know. But no, I haven't necessarily had backlash. I understand what you're saying that it's not the greatest negotiating tactic. Although, I'm on the fence about that. I think sometimes you want to throw out a certain standard or a certain number, and otherwise you're not going to get there, which is often not what financial or business experts say, that you are not supposed to throw out the first number. But if that number is not even in the ballpark of where their number is, you're not going to get up to where you want to be that way. Hold on. Pontificate Communication about negotiating aside. You have a distinction, it sounds like, between what your salary number is working for a bigger company and what your side hustle figures are. So you're more comfortable talking about how much you're making for the ancillary things, and you're still not comfortable talking about your salary.

Is that right? I now... That is largely correct. I am now comfortable talking about my salary with people who don't work at the same company. So I, for example, use case. Me and Mike used to work at the same magazine many years ago, and now I have this Mike has another job, and he is asking my advice about this job offer that he's considering. They're going to offer him a $30,000 raise, and he's like, That seems really great. That's a lot of money. I will tell him what I make because I want him to know, Well, here's the data point that I have about what's available in the marketplace. If that's useful to you, then you should know it. That is useful information to him. Now, what I won't do is I won't be talking to a colleague inside of my company and say, Hey, here's what I make. Do you make that? Is that useful to you? Should you, when you're negotiating with our same boss, be able to know this information so that you... That feels uncomfortable. And that's just a Pandora's box that I don't want to open. But Nicole, as I'm saying this right now, I'm recognizing an error that I'm making.

And the error is that I am seeing this way too much through the lens of my own experience. Because when you and I talk, we're talking about what we think for ourselves And so I'm now telling you what I think for myself. I've carved out this little space where this is where I will share, this is where I won't share. But who cares about me? Who cares about me? Because I am a senior person at a small company, which is a very small little quarter of the larger work world. And for anybody else, I think that sharing can be exceptionally valuable. I get it. You're right. Because if you are open about this and therefore prompt other people to be open about it, too, then you gain access to a world of knowledge that is otherwise not available to you. And that can help you in so many ways because now you can understand what you're worth at your company, just like your example of when you were starting out at CNN and you were earning what was commensurate with your experience. Therefore, you can see what is available to you on this path. You're working this job.

You can imagine that if you get this amount of experience, then this is what you can expect to make. Then what When you reach that point, you know what to demand. And all of that is exceptionally valuable, and you will have a much harder time navigating that world if you don't have some outside input. So I get it. Again, for me, This is the boundary that I'm carving. I guess the only thing maybe that's worth taking from me is that I think it's okay to set some boundary about who and where you are comfortable sharing this information I am just not... Nicole, I can't sign on to broadcasting everything I make. I get that it would be valuable to other people, but I am not comfortable with it. I think I'm going to be okay with that. I am going to give other people permission to be uncomfortable with it, too, and to draw whatever boundary makes the most sense for them. So there.

For today's tip, you can take straight to the bank. If you're ready to dive in and start having these money conversations with friends, family, colleagues, and peers, start small. Ask these folks how much they're tipping their super for the holidays or whether they give their kids an allowance. Like anything else, when it comes to talking about money, practice makes perfect. Money Rehab is a production of iHeartRadio. I'm your host, Nicole Lappin.

Our producers are Morgan Lavoy and Mike Coscarelli.

Executive producers are Nikki Etor and Will Pearson. Our masc are Penny and Mimsy. Huge thanks to O. G. Money Rehab team, Michelle Lanz for her development work, Katherine Law for her production and writing, Magic, and Brandon Dickert for his editing, engineering, and sound design. And as always, thanks to you for finally investing in yourself so that you can get it together and get it all.

You spend my money, money, money. You spend.