Hey, there's financial expert Nicole Lappin, and I'm magnify, your AI investing assistant. We're working together on this new podcast, Money Assistant, where we talk to people about their money problems and then help them create an actionable plan to solve them. If we take a look at how that will impact future paola, she will be debt free in under six years and have a million dollars in retirement. How does that sound? Wait, what? Meet money assistant, premiering September 4, wherever you get your favorite podcasts. Hey, money rehabbers. Before we get started, I just wanted to let you know that today's episode includes a description of suicidal thoughts. So please take care while listening. I'm Nicole Lapin, the only financial expert you don't need a dictionary to understand. It's time for some money rehab. So I was reading the LA Times not too long ago, and I stumbled across an article titled, after being dumped, can a $4,000 breakup boot camp help you heal? I was hooked. My first thought was, damn, $4,000 is a whole lot of money. And that was my second thought and my third thought, too. But I was also so curious. Breakups and heartache and relationship woes can affect your mental health, which in turn can affect your financial health.

So what's the price of good overall health in all aspects? If it isn't $4,000, how much is it? So, naturally, I wanted to find out more about this boot camp, so I invited the founder, Amy Chan on to tell me more about it. Welcome to money rehab.

Thanks for having me.

You are the founder and chief heart hacker. Love that title at Renew Breakup Bootcamp. I cannot wait to dive into that more because we've all experienced that. Your background is so interesting to me. You started in marketing, and your last job was at one of my favorite places in New York, actually, the Ping pong club, spin. So how did you pivot from Ping pong to heartbreak?

Yeah. So I was the chief marketing officer at Spin, and I had always had this idea to create this retreat, a safe space for people to go after going through a breakup or divorce. And the idea came after a pretty traumatic breakup of my own. I was on the path of happily forever after, which to me, back then meant date, get married, and be a stay at home wife. And I was set. And then that relationship fell apart due to infidelity. And without that, I just fell into pieces. I didn't have an identity outside of the relationship and our future plans. And I tried everything I could to heal. I went to yoga retreats, but I was just procrastinating my pain. So when I healed that, I was like, what happens to those people who don't have friends and a support system? What happens to them? And so the idea came about, and I continued working in corporate until I felt ready to launch on my own.

So sorry you went through that. And thank you for opening up about it. What part of that healing process inspired.

The boot camp when I didn't know when the pain was going to end? It was a very scary place, not only for myself of what I was, these destructive thoughts of what I was going to do to end that pain, but I had crazy revenge fantasies. Like some involved buying bedbugs.

Buying bedbugs and putting them in his bed.

Maybe sending something to the woman and to the guy and maybe it would infiltrate their apartments. My mind was just going on, how could I release this pain? And so I think not knowing how the pain was going to end, if the pain was going to ever end, it was just such a scary place. And so when I hit rock bottom, and it was a key moment where I had a panic attack, I was trying to calm down in the bathtub, and I had this conversation in my head of how could I pull off a suicide without traumatizing the person who'd find my body. I'm like, oh, I don't want to do it because my friend let me their place. I don't want them to find me. I don't want their cleaner to find me. They don't even know me. And I honestly, thank God I'm so polite because I couldn't figure it out. I fell asleep that night. I didn't go through with it. And the next morning I went, holy crap, I am going to go either spiral out of control and continue that way, or I need to fight. I need to fight my way out of this.

And I don't know how, but I'm going to just take it one step at a time. And I made that key decision, and I did. And it was hard. And there was times when I felt like, oh, my gosh, I've done it. I'm over it. And then something would trigger me and I would be back into fetal position. But after going through all that, I would say it probably took me about over two years. I just was like, I have to help those people. My pain isn't going to be for nothing. And I really found my purpose in that. And I wrote about it and then eventually started my own breakup boot camp.

Oh, sister, I just got the chills. So what was that first step? How did you get from those suicidal thoughts in the bathtub to getting out of the fetal position? What was the first thing you did?

The very first thing was I signed up for a food delivery program which delivered green juices to my place because I wasn't eating. And so when you're not taking care of your body, there is absolutely no way your mind and your heart can function. And that was really started to change me. So that was number one. Number two, I went and I found work because at the same time, right before the breakup, I was laid off from my job, and I spent a big chunk of my savings taking my now ex on a trip across Europe for his birthday. And then all this came after that. So I didn't have a job, and so I got some contract work in marketing. And that really helped because having something to focus on other than the breakup and my story allowed me to just take some time off of this narrative that was replaying over and over in my head.

I'm glad that you touched on the financial part, of course, because we love to follow the money trail. And a lot of women that I hear from don't want to leave relationships because they're scared of supporting themselves. They deal with a lot financial abuse and otherwise, because they don't think they can get their finances together, but obviously they can. How much did that play into your story, and how often do you hear that from others?

In my case, I was not dependent on my partner at the time, but I got out my apartment because I couldn't afford my apartment anymore, moved in with him. So I think that it made all of it just so much more crushing. I didn't have a home. I was too ashamed to go back to my mom's house. So my friends just took turns housing me month over month until I could get back onto my own feet. And it was horrible. This embarrassing feeling so ashamed that I didn't have money was just an extra layer. And I see it a lot. I see people who are in relationships that some are pretty bad. Like, they're abusive, and some are not terrible, but they're not good. And they are like, well, what can I do? I have to stick with this because there's so much sunk cost in this. It's already been so many years. Well, how can I start now?

And also that shame of if you were living together and maybe you lived in a nice place that you can't afford on your own, and then you're couch surfing. There's just a lot of reluctance, I'm sure, in changing your life and then putting up with a lot because of that.

Yeah, for sure.

So tell us about the boot camp experience. I'm assuming you took everything you learned from all of your own healing at different retreats. But can you give us the details? How long is the retreat? I have 1000 questions. What are the activities?

So I'll start with what the boot camp is about. So it's four days. It's always out in nature. And I bring in a team of twelve experts from psychologists, behavioral scientists, sex therapists, even a dominatrix who teaches on the psychology of power dynamics. And people come, there's about 25 people and they're in programming from nine in the morning until nine at night. It's very intense and they actually don't know what they're going to have. So the agenda, just a session. And part of why we do this is because if I tell them, oh, you're going to have an out of body experience while moving trauma through the body, they're going to be like, no thanks.

Hard pass. Yeah, it's not like a fun day to sign up for trauma therapy. I've done it before. It's like today is not a great day for a colonoscopy either. It never feels like a great day.

Yeah. But they are pleasantly surprised. They are around other people who are also going through the same thing. And one of the house rules I set in the very beginning is there's no bashing of the ex and no unsolicited advice because we don't want to go into a hate fest rabit hole when we are just blaming our ex, psychoanalyzing our ex, hoping for our ex to give us closure. We are still in a relationship with our ex and that emotional charge keeps us hooked. So that's why no complaining. And then we have the experts there. So I'm sure so many people have experienced going through a breakup and then everyone becomes the major advice giver and as if they know, but a lot of the times they're projecting. And so leave it to the experts. And we have a program that takes them through different stages of the healing process, but not only to heal and move through those emotions, but to understand what are some of those subconscious patterns that have been kicking around before the x. How can we start rewiring those so we don't repeat the same emotional experience over and over again?

So of course we follow all money trails on money rehab. I'd love to dive into the actual process of creating that retreat, turning it into a business. When you were mapping out this boot camp, what elements or what offerings were most important to you, I looked at.

Everything that was critical to my healing process, and then I sought out an expert that specifically focused on that. So from cognitive behavioral therapy techniques to breath work to getting back in touch with my body after being so disassociated with it for way beyond my ex. So bringing in a tantra expert, and then I launched. Really, I thought, this is just going to be a passion project. I'm going to do it on the side. I talked to my CEO at spin about it and he actually gave me his blessing. He was super supportive in the entire process. And I was always like, this is going to be a small thing. And that first one, I actually invited some reporters to come and I got a lot of press from it. And so from the press that came, I had an email from an agent at UTA. And back then I had no idea what this was. So I was like, what do you want? Do you want money from me? And they're like, amy, just come in, let's have a meeting. And that eventually became a book deal and all these things, but I constantly, because I grew up just being used to being in corporate, I was like, this is going to be a small thing.

And it took time for me to have enough in my savings account to feel that I had enough traction that I could leave corporate for good and follow this dream of creating my own business.

How did you figure out how to price the retreat?

So in the beginning, I just wanted to break even on the first retreat, and so I priced it really low. I had friends and friends of friends come and I'm like, I'll just give it to you at cost. I just kind of need this to happen. And then what would happen is every single retreat, I kind of played with the pricing as I added more things, added more teachers, added more days, changed the location, I updated the price, and now, I mean, look, the retreat isn't my main money maker. It used to be the only way I made revenue. But during the pandemic, I turned a lot of my program into online. And the retreat now is really, it's aspirational. It is something that reminds me of why I do what I do, because as you know, as an entrepreneur, sometimes being in the day to day can be exhausting. And so when I'm at the retreat and I physically see these people transform in front of my eyes, it just reminds me like, amy, this is what you're meant to do. Keep your eye on that vision and don't veer from it.

So the LA Times did a story on you that it's $4,000 a pop, that aspirational sort of price tag. I think from a business perspective, you can either do a lower price point but do bigger volume or a higher price point. And it sounds like that's what you wanted to do. You wanted to keep it small, you wanted to keep it part of your business. I assume that was part of your process.

And then I have, like, an online version of breakup boot camp. It's like 60 videos and lessons. So for those who can't afford it or you want to do it at the comfort of your own home, that's, like, a much more economical price.

And how much is that to do?

That's 395.

In the FAQ section on your website, I read that folks can contact your team, though, if they're struggling financially and they want to attend your boot camp. Is that right? How do you balance the cost? With accessibility.

Yeah. So every retreat, we have a couple of subsidies that we will do. And I don't have this mathematical equation. I really look at it by case basis, and so we'll help out people to make it feasible for them. Cool.

And in a word, what would you say attendees are paying for signing up? What do they get?

Empowerment.

Hold on to your wallets. Money rehab will be right back. And now for some more money rehab. As you know, I preach financial independence. Pay yourself first. Don't marry rich, be rich. All of those fun things. What role do you think independence, financial or otherwise, plays in a relationship?

So this is a huge topic, because I'm going to tell you, my main client is the person who was financially dependent. And maybe they started off, they had a job, they had a career, and then somewhere along the way, they're like, you know what? Let's not. And that was really the path that when I say I thought I was going for happily ever after, that's the life that I thought I wanted and.

Needed somebody to take care of you.

Yeah. And what happens is it begins fine, right? But where people come to break up, boot camp is usually 10, 15, 20 years later. Maybe they've had children, maybe they've been a stay at home mom. And then the person comes back, there's an affair, there's been cheating, there's being blindsided. And then this person, it's typically the woman is like, oh, my gosh, what do I do? I now not only don't have my identity of being the housewife, the caretaker, I actually don't know how I'm going to land on my feet and why I love what you do, and I've sent people to your website and to buy your books is because when we're blissfully in love and the love drugs are at its peak of dopamine, you don't think about what might happen later on when the passion sizzles. When you're going through these times where you think each other are so annoying, you don't think about that. And so what happens is when you just go like, you know what? I'm not going to make money. I'm not going to be equal in finances or at least have something of my own. The power dynamic changes.

It always changes. It doesn't matter how much they love you. And eventually this person was so into you and courting you. Years pass, the lust isn't there, and then suddenly they have power over you.

What role does financial issues play in breakups? Like, would you say if somebody is thinking about splitting up from the person they're with but really concerned about finance, what kind of advice would you give them?

I would say create your safety net, however that's going to look like, right? I mean, it's not any different than what I did when I decided to start my company. My safety net was, okay, I'm going to start saving. How much do I need to save? All right, what's realistic? Three months of savings. Okay. I called my mom. Hey, mom, if everything goes to crap and I fail, can I go home and live with you while I do this thing? She said, yes. Okay. That's my building, the safety net, so I could psychologically prepare myself for this huge change that is going to come.

Yeah. I have benefited a lot from this stoicism idea because oftentimes we suffer more in imagination than in reality. So, like, fast forwarding the videotape or mp3 or whatever, if I do break up or lose my job or some scary thing, will I be okay? Well, yes. I'll go stay with my mom or my friends or whatever, and that will be my plan or solution or coming up with some number so it doesn't feel overwhelming and scary. That makes a lot of sense. I've also heard you say, which I really like, that we view happily ever after as the only desirable outcome to a relationship, and that we should expand our definition to include more. I'd love to double click on that idea. How do you think we should view possible outcomes in relationships?

I think that there's this idea. A successful relationship means one that's forever. And that's just not the case. Our relationships serve many different purposes. Some are going to be teaching you a key lesson. Some is to break your heart so it breaks you open for someone else down the road. And so I want us to reframe what happily forever after is. Ask yourself, is this version, this plan, this idea, my own dream, or is it someone else's? And start getting really clear on what do I want? And second, I feel like a lot of people are hard on themselves because a relationship didn't work or they went through a divorce and they're like, what a waste. But it's never a waste if you learned something from it. It was not a waste if you haven't learned something from it, go dig and look at whatever it is that you need to learn, because there's something there for you. There is data that you can apply to make your future even better. And sometimes relationships don't work so that you can figure out what you don't want, so that you can figure out what you do want in the future.

Yeah. And sometimes figuring out what you don't want is more important. At least I've found. I love this idea of reframing the way we view romantic relationships and outcomes. I think that there probably could be something to reframing relationships and the way we view money, too. Could we use that strategy to reframe our relationship with money?

Oh, my gosh. Yeah. And I think I'm going through this process as well, where I grew up watching my dad pay for everything, even though my mom helped out a lot and I equated money with love. And my dad is an immigrant from China. He didn't know how to express love, so he just would give me a hundred. I mean, he still does this to this day. And so I brought that money narrative with me into my relationships. And to be honest, when I look back, I was very entitled about money. And if someone didn't pay, they didn't do this, then I was like, oh, my gosh, I don't like you. And I remember, even with my ex, my expectation was that they paid for most of everything. And now I'm in a very equal partnership. And it's not that my partner wouldn't pay for the entire living expenses, but I don't want that. I don't want to ever feel like I'm living in his home, and that's just the set up for me. So I think that you need to sit down and look at what is the money narrative that you've kind of taken through osmosis, through culture, your parents, et cetera.

And then again, ask yourself, is this what you want? Is that going to serve your present and your future?

So is there some advice that you would give people in your boot camp around how they view money in a relationship, or you truly believe it's all individual?

My general rule of thumb is that money is a major factor in the power dynamics. And so if you go in thinking, oh, my gosh, like, amazing, they're just going to pay for everything all the time, it will last. There's an expiry date to that power dynamic where it's equal until it eventually shifts. And this is purely through seven years of watching what happens at the end. I work with people when they had that mentality, and it blows up. And I think for those people who are in maybe a marriage and that is a set up, that's also okay. But you can have updated conversations so that you do feel empowered about finances. And just because you started it that way doesn't mean you have to be like that forever.

Do you feel like if one person pays for the majority, then they expect something else from the other person? Like, there's some expectation because I pay the rent or because I pay the mortgage that you're supposed to deal with more shit.

Intellectually, they'll probably say no, but emotionally it's a yes. And it's not that they're bad people. I see a lot of my own friends who are the ones paying for everything, and they love their partner and they have the best of intentions, but does it show up and creep up in those resentments and like, well, I did all of this. You should be able to do that. Yeah, it does.

I see it a lot. At the end of relationships. It's like, oh, it's cool, it's cool, it's cool until it's not. Typically, I close my interviews asking guests for one piece of advice they could take straight to the bank. But for you, I wanted to know a piece of advice for healing after a breakup that listeners can take straight to the recovery road.

You've got to find something that is empowering that you can get obsessed over, because if you don't, you will just use that passion and direct it towards your ex in either painful stories. Blame, shame, whatever it is. So when I say something empowering, that could be learning a new hobby, building a side hustle, whatever it is, and you'll get a positive feedback loop as you become better at this, and that will automatically help you not ruminate and obsess about the past.

Yeah, or, like, start a company or a network asking for a friend. Money rehab is a production of Money News Network. I'm your host, Nicole Lappin. Money rehab's executive producer is Morgan Lavoie. Our researcher is Emily Holmes. Do you need some money rehab? And let's be honest, we all do. So email us your money questions, moneyrehab@moneynewsnetwork.com to potentially have your questions answered on the show or even have a one on one intervention with me. And follow us on Instagram at moneyNews and TikTok at moneyNews Network for exclusive video content. And lastly, thank you. No, seriously, thank you. Thank you for listening and for investing in yourself, which is the most important investment you can make. Hey, there, it's financial expert Nicole Lapin, and I'm magnify, your AI investing assistant. We're working together on this new podcast, Money Assistant, where we talk to people about their money problems and then help them create an actionable plan to solve them. If we take a look at how that will impact future Paola, she will be debt free in under six years and have a million dollars in retirement. How does that sound? Wait, what? Meet money assistant, premiering September 4, wherever you get your favorite podcast.