You're listening to a Morbid network podcast.

Hey, weirdos. I'm Melina. And I'm Ash. And this is Morbid.

Yeah. Yeah. I had a stoner vibe about that, the way you said more bad.

I'm in a different universe right now.

Tell the people. Let it out. Put it all in the book, sweetie. Honestly, this.

All goes in order, actually, because the last time we talked to you guys was yesterday when my ceiling flooded. Oh, yeah. We did record yesterday, too. And all the alarms in my house went off because it flooded into the smoke detector and other parts. So it set the detectors off. So that was yesterday. That was wild. That was yesterday. Then in the middle of the night last night, because all the water had flooded into one of those smoke detectors at 3:00 AM.

The witch an hour.

The alarms started blaring in my house, and a nice robotic voice was saying, Fire. Fire. Fire. I shot up out of bed and I said, Oh, my God. My kids ran down the hallway to us crying because they didn't know what was going on. That's horrific. John's running downstairs where just like everybody's... It's chaotic. It's mayhem. He discovers that it is that, that it's like a false alarm. We try to get everybody back to sleep, but everybody's all wound up and terrified. My litter is just like, sobbing. It was awful. One of my twins was trying to tell my litter's one like, It's okay. We have fire drills in school. It was so cute.

It's cute now. At the time, I was like, This is chaos.

Yes, it's chaos.

We finally get everybody settled, and then within 10 minutes, it flares again. It does that another four times back to back within 10 minutes each or five minutes sometimes until finally, he was able to clean it out, disconnect that one. He was like, to finally get it so that it wasn't going to trigger again. Right. But by that point, it had been over an hour of all of us being shot up and not going back to sleep and the kids being upset, me being straight. It was just all a mess. It was chaos. The youngest one didn't want to go to sleep, so John was trying to sleep on the end of her bed to calm her down.

That's too tiny for John. One of.

My twins was like, Is everything cool? I was like, Yeah. She was like, See you. I just went to sleep. The other one was like, Can I come in bed with you? I was like, Sure. It was chaos. The dogs had no fucking clue what was going on. They're just like, What have.

You done? I know, and think of how loud that was.

To them. How loud it was, and they were like, What.

Is going on? It's loud to us, but it's so high pitched in their poor little ears.

They're also in full... They've officially reached the point where they're full protect family mode when something happens. If they see people upset, they lose it. They're like, barking. They're losing their minds being like, Who's fucking with you guys? They're just.

Like, Let me out of here.

Let me out of here. Let me out of here. Which was beautiful for them. I love them. They're wonderful, and I'm glad they do that. But at the time, I was like, This is a nightmare.

This is a nightmare.

Today, I'm just a zombie.

Okay. It's like Halloween all over again. Yeah.

I'm living that right now. I don't know how much sleep we got because.

Also- It was so like off and on. Yeah.

Also, sorry, I'm telling you my whole life story right now, but I'm so tired it's going to be a rambling rose moment. I don't.

Think that's your whole.

Life story. Also, one of my twins lost a tooth at school yesterday. The tooth fairy came just, you know.

In the middle of all that.

In the middle of.

All that. She still had.

To do it. Which can can be very stressful for the tooth fairy as well. That was added on to it. Luckily, the tooth fairy did come, and it was great because the tooth fairy never misses.

Damn, she really does be working OT.

She does. So good job, tooth fairy.

Shout out to the tooth fairy.

Shout.

Out to the tooth fairy. The tooth fairy now has to answer the children's letters that they write now.

That they lose to you. Yes. Now that they can write.

And they're like, What's your favorite food on Thanksgiving? Thanksgiving.

In fact, it was the last one that I promise I'll be done.

After this. You're like, I don't know. The last.

Letter that they wrote to the tooth fairy, they asked what she wanted to be for Halloween, and the tooth fairy answered a stack of pancaks.

That's what she was. I like that she told them her favorite thwad on Thanksgiving is mashed potatoes.

Because of the color of teeth?

That's so creepy. Why did the tooth fairy say that?

The tooth fairy was up late. She's a cookie girl.

That's her favorite, flawed.

But yeah, that's where I'm at today. I'm really glad that she was telling you the story because I don't know what rocket ship I would take us all on today.

I watched some gobblegool last night, and then I watched some Southern charm, and then I fell asleep at a normal hour. I'm sorry, but I slept like a fucking baby. That's so.

Nice.

For you. Well, okay, the night before, though, I was up all night because of my freaking cats jiggling the door all night. Let me in. Let me in. I'm like, I'm not letting you in here because you're going to go crazy and you're going to shove everything off my night stand at all hours of the night. So no, I'm not doing it. No. Then last night they were on their best behavior. Good for those cats. My cats. My cats. My cats. Well, I wish that I had a uplifting story for you, a story of justice or something spooky to make you lull, but I don't. I have a pretty tragic case. The woman at the center of this case is a cool lady, though, reading about her and learning more about... I mean, her life is very tragic, but learning about who she was and what was important to her. I was like, This lady, I want to be friends with.

I'm into it.

It's a bit of an oldie. It's like-It's a goodie. -20 slash 30s, but it's really, really interesting. I hope you like it. This one's for you. -this one's for me? -yeah, I don't know. I felt like I was introducing you. This one's for you. A song at a concert, so it just felt right to say this.

One's for you. Hey, co-host, this one's for you.

Yeah, this one's for you, Elena. Despite the extensive coverage of her murder and the trial that followed, there's not a ton of information out there about Mamie Thurman's life, and that's who we're going to be talking about today, Mamie Thurman. But what we do know is that she was born Mamie Morrison on September 12th, 1900 to George and Ollie Morrison of Kentucky. And also the name of Ollie is so cute.

That is really cute.

Usually, you hear it for a boy, but I think for a woman or a girl, it's so pretty. Yeah. But unfortunately, in late January of 1901, when Mamie was just four months old, Ollie ended up passing away, leaving Mamie in the sole care of her father.

Oh, damn. So she never really knew her mother. Despite suffering such an early and tragic loss, maybe she grew up to be a really happy, intelligent girl. She was charismatic. She was confident. She was outgoing. She had everything going for her. Author author, Keith Davis wrote, With a bubbly and outgoing personality, she knew few strangers, like just wanted to be friends with everybody, would talk to whoever. As she got older, she carried that confidence and friendly nature into adulthood. She enthusically embraced the fashion of the early 20th century. She dressed in tight-fitting clothes. She loved a little low neckline to show the.

Girls off. Get it, girl.

She accessorized with really beautiful, eye-catching jewelry. While most adults at the time discouraged such, quote-unquote, provocative attire, Mamie loved colorful, glamorous clothing. She loved outrageous hats, head wraps, the turbans they would wear. Hell, yeah. She was a fashion gwerly. It wasn't just the fashion that Mamie loved. It was all the latest cultural trends. Being what her half brother, George Jr, described as a flapper, which is like my faith.

A.

Flapper. A flapper. She completely embraced the suffragette movement for emancipation of women, and she really rejected the conservative modesty of the previous generation. She was like, going out there on her own, going to do the damn thing in style.

She's like, tits out, everyone. Yeah. -chin up.

-i'm that button of shit. -titties up. Let's go. Yeah, let's go. Honestly, which is another thing I really love about her, she just leaned into the shocked responses that she would get from people. Because remember, she's from a small town in Kentucky, so people didn't necessarily appreciate her bold outfits or gorgeously.

Applied mug. But you know what? What other people think of you is none of your business. Rupert.

But more than anything, Mammy loved the budding jazz styles, emerging in places like New York, Chicago, New Orleans, and that music usually went along with crazy new styles of people were like, Oh, M. G. Are you summoning the devil over there? And Mamie was like, Bitch, I might be. Basically, she was just a cool chick way ahead of her time.

Sounds like it.

I love her. Now, in 1924, she met and married Jack Thurman. He was a construction worker from Bradford, I can say it.

You can do it. I have.

Faith in you. Bradfordville, Kentucky. But pretty shortly after they got married, Manny and Jack moved from Kentucky to Logan, West Virginia, a little over four hours away. Now, Logan was really just as rural as Bradfordsville, but it had more opportunities. Jack was able to find construction work pretty quickly, actually, mostly thanks to Mamie's father. Her dad had also worked in construction, and he worked a lot in that area, so he put in a good word for his new son-in-law. Then meanwhile, Mamie started taking secretarial classes at the local high school, and when she had wrapped up her coursework, she was able to get a really good job as a secretary at a local car dealership.

Cool.

Now, moving from Kentucky to West Virginia, it did put a lot of distance. Like I just said, it was a four-hour move, so put a lot of distance between Mamie and her family. But she made a point to go back as often as she could to visit her dad. By then, he had actually gotten remarried and started a family with his second wife, but he and Mamie stayed close, and she was close to his whole family there. She was a lot older than his youngest kids, but they also were super close, like I just said. Her half brother, George, later said, At first, I thought she was my aunt, Mamie, my father's sister, not his daughter. It wasn't until many years later that I discovered she was my sister. Whoa. Because there was just such an age difference. Despite the years between them, George completely adored Mamie. He told a reporter, I thought Mamie was the most beautiful woman in the world.

That is.

So sweet. Your brother just thinks you're the most gorgeous. Love that. It wasn't just her younger brother and her dad that Mammy was close to. She also was really close to her stepmom because they had a ton in common, and they actually considered each other close friends until Mammy's death.

In.

Fact, George senior, Mammy's father, and his second wife, they had a pretty difficult marriage, and they actually separated on a number of occasions, but Mamie would tell her dad exactly what she thought he had done wrong. And more often than not, she'd sigh with her stepmom.

Oh, my God. That's really funny.

Because they were closer in age, too. She was like, You're fucking my.

Friend over here. She's like, I get this.

Yeah.

Morbid tells the.

Spooky and macabre stories that.

Send chills down.

Your spine. But few stories.

Are creepier than the one at.

The.

Center of my new podcast, Ghost Story.

Ghosts.

Aren't real.

At least that's what I've always believed. Sure, odd things happen in my childhood bedroom, but ultimately, I shrugged it all off. That is until a couple of years ago when I discovered that every subsequent occupant of that house is convinced they've experienced something inexplicable too, including the most recent inhabitant who says she was visited at night by the ghost of a faceless woman. It just so happens that the alleged ghost haunted my childhood room might just be my wife's great grandmother who was murdered in the house next door by two.

Gunshots to the face.

Ghost Story, a podcast about family secrets, overwhelming coincidence, and the things that come back to haunt us. Follow Ghost Story on the Wondry app wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes ad-free right now by joining Wondry+. We're moving from one of the most magical times of the year, spooky season, to the other magical time of the year.

Speaking of, what's your favorite.

Christmas story? Oh, hands down The Grinch. Same. It cracks me up that he hates all merrimont. Same. But then it's so heartwarming at the end when the whole town is singing and he realizes there's more to Christmas than just gifts.

If I had feels, it would hit me right in them.

Well, the best part is has a new podcast starring The Grinch, and I think there's someone who wants to tell you more about it. Hi, it's me, the Grand Pouba of The Humbug.

The.

Og Green Grump, The Grinch. From Wondery.

Tiz the.

Grinch Holiday Talk Show is a pathetic attempt by the people of.

Hooverill.

To.

Use my.

Situation as a teachable moment. So join me, The Grinch. Listen as I launch a campaign against Christmas cheer. Grilling celebrity guests like chestnuts on an open fire. Your family will love the show. As you know, I'm famously great with kids. Follow Tiz the Grinch holiday talk show on the Wondery app for wherever you get your podcasts. Now, when George senior unexpectedly died in 1928, Mimi actually helped her stepmom move into a one-room, quote-unquote, no-frills apartment at the Pioneer Hotel in Logan. She kept visiting her and hanging out with her as often as she could. Oh, my God. Yeah. Like I said, they were- That's really sweet. It is. Like I said, they were pretty close in age, so they actually would go out with each other at night occasionally in the company of other men. Because Mamie had a little fun on the side.

Yeah, apparently.

Her stepmom could because her dad had passed away.

Yeah, she's a widow now.

Exactly. But a few years after moving to West Virginia, Jack ended up joining, Jack is Mammy's husband. He ended up joining the local police force, and Mamie was able to get a better job working as a secretary at one of the largest banks in town. That was where she became acquainted with some of the most influential men in Logan. Then sometimes she'd get more than acquainted. Oh. Yep. One resident of the town said of her, That Mamie sure was a high steper. She was a well-known, she was well-known and a very fine-looking lady.

Imagine being described as a high-stepper and a very fine-looking lady.

I mean, let's go.

What a legend to leave.

What a legend?

That's the thing. A legacy is what I meant, but legend works, too. What did you say? I said a legend to leave. I meant a legacy. Oh, oh. But it's in the same word family, so it's fine. Yeah.

You guys.

Know what I mean?

A high steper was like a nice thing to say.

But also like- I think it depends on how you interpret it.

For.

Yourself. Exactly.

It means that you're leading a wild and fast life.

Yes, exactly.

I think.

It's like if you're fine with that, then you're like, Hell, yeah, I'm a high steper.

I think Mammy was because like I said, she leaned into this whole thing.

I think she would have been like, Yeah, that's me. But some people would be like, Oh, shit. I'm getting a reputation for being a high steper.

Exactly. But he also.

Said, A fine-looking lady. I mean, hell, yeah.

I'd be focused on that personally. But the thing was, while most people really publicly knew Mammy as a respectable woman of quiet demeanor, a devoted wife, a faithful congregant, and regular of the services at church. Behind closed doors, people knew a little bit more and talked a little bit more about her, and rumors were starting to spread. She may have been all of those things, all of those great things, but people also said that she was promiscuous and she often went out alone and she danced with men at speakeasies. She had a tendency to drink too much at a time when literally all forms of liquor were still illegal. Damn. So she was dabbling in some stuff.

I was just going to say she's really dabbling in the... Almost in the 20s Underworlds.

Exactly, like the 20s Underworlds.

It feels like in Mulan Rouge, how that whole world was this wild underworld of folks everywhere in different...

It's so funny that you said Mulan Rouge because the entire time I was doing this case, I was thinking of that movie. Really?

Yeah, because I think they say they're creatures of the Underworld. You know what I mean? Are they hint at it? Yeah. That's what it feels like to me, this cool, just.

Like-.

Society. A little reckless. It's cool.

I love a good time.

Yeah, we're far removed from it, so it's cool for us now. Exactly. We can look back and be like, That.

Looks cool. It was, but it was also somewhat dangerous to dabble in those things back then. Especially not only just for your safety, but for your reputation. Yeah, it was scary. Remember herhusband is a police officer now.

Exactly. She's really rolling the dice here.

That's the thing. But we all know that multiple things, even contradictory things, can all be true at once. She was a really good writer. For sure. She was devoted in her own way. She went to church, but she also dabbled in those underground things.

She had many facets, Amy.

Yeah, that's the thing. She was multifaceted. But she also was a young woman in her late 20s, remember, who wanted more for her life than just small town Logan had to offer. Actually, it wasn't that she and Jack were poor. They weren't struggling to get by by any means. But Mamie had an appreciation for those finer things in life, and she and Jack weren't necessarily bringing in the money to make those things a constant. So in the meantime, she did her best to manifest these things. As Keith Davis wrote, Mamie was determined to go after opportunities. In pursuit of this endeavor, she spent much of her free time with friends and affluent neighborhoods within city limits. All right. So she's trying to rub shoulders with the right people to make a better life.

She's networking.

Exactly. But rumors and moral judgment aside, it is true that even though she was married, she did see other men. Her half brother recalled, I remember Mamie coming over to visit mom, who stayed at the Pioneer Hotel. I remember men coming in and going out of our room at all times of the day and night. It also reminds me of Gatsby a little bit.

It's very.

Much like that. That one scene where they had the hotel party.

With Myrtle. Yes. That's a.

Stressful scene. It reminds me of that. Very stressful. Now, it's unknown exactly how many extramarital relationships Mammie had, but most sources cite that her relationship with Harry Robertson was the most long-running and most significant relationship that she had, aside from her husband, Jack. Harry was the son of Logan County's former sheriff, and he was really well-known in the community because he worked at the, I think it's Guyon Valley Bank, and that was the bank that Mimi worked at, but it was one of the other biggest banks in town. Because I was like, it was one of the biggest banks in town before this was the other one. There's so many big banks. There's so many big banks. And most people considered Harry to be a decent family man. He married his wife, Louise, in 1914 in nearby Huntington. After they got married, they moved and settled in Logan. Harry went to work at the bank, and 10 years later, they'd had two children. They were living in a large three-bedroom house near the center of town. They had.

A beautiful life. Did it, guys.

And to offset the cost of living, they rented out part of their property to borders. Okay.

To offset the cost of existing.

I feel like everybody feels that right now.

They're like, I heard that. Exactly.

When Guyon Valley Bank, I think I said it a different way this time, but whatever. I love the variety. Because that's what I'm here.

To offer. The spice of life.

When Guyon Valley Bank merged with Logan First National Bank, which is where Mami worked, Harry kept his position as head bookkeeper at the new institution. That is when he became acquainted with Mamie, who, like I said, worked as a secretary for Logan First National Bank. Because those banks merged, it made Mamie and Harry coworkers. Now, they already knew each other casually, but I think they got to know each other a little bit better here, if you pick up what I'm putting down.

Cornally?

Yes. In fact, it was actually Harry who was largely responsible for Jack Thurman, Mamie's husband, becoming a police officer. Because Harry used his status in the community to advocate for Jack. And around the late 1920s, an article in the local paper, The Logan banner, referred to Jack as Harry's, quote, own favorite appointee of the city police force. Damn.

Messy. I was just going to say this is very messy.

It only gets messier. Now, it's not really clear if Jack knew that his friend Harry eventually ended up romantically and sexually involved with his wife, but it's hard to believe that he had no idea Mammy was being unfaithful. Before Mammy and Harry had become involved, Mami was known to spend a lot of time at L'Occitane de Amour, aka the Amour Club.

The Amour Club.

The Love Club? The Love Club, exactly.

The Love Club.

The Love Club. Wow. It was a local social club with a questionable reputation. For love. During Prohibition, the Amore Club was what was known back then as a key club, and that meant that patrons had to provide proof of membership and give a password before being allowed inside. Oh, damn. To drink and dance and gamble. It was.

A speakeasy. I think the original Playboy clubs were like that too. I think you're right. It's like a key club. Yeah, they did. For some reason, I remember reading that somewhere. That's the only time I've heard it.

That was also mentioned in Secrets a Playboy. I think they had special cards. Like I said, it was like a speakeasy, but the club also gained a reputation as, quote, a secret nightclub for both married and single adults, a haven for unfaithful and unsavory husbands and wives looking for a good time where there was a reasonable amount of confidentiality.

We have discretion here in high supply.

So it's like a sexy nighttime gambling, dancing, drinking, cheating on your wife in.

Husband club. I was just going to say. It's just like, hey, come cheat.

It's a sexy club. It's a sexy.

Place, okay? Yeah, with sexy people. Don't worry about it.

So F. Keith Davis, who wrote The Secret Life and brutal death of Mammy Thurman, spoiler alert, points out that since Mammy was a new employee of the bank, it would have been Harry's job to train her. Their relationship probably started as an innocent friendship. He wrote conceivably, their first conversation on the job led to occasional dinner dates away from the bank. Then from there, developed into very romantic Rendezvous when Jack was on duty.

At.

The time, Jack and Mammy were actually living in an apartment above the Robertson's garage. Harry and his wife are the Robertsons. What? It was easier to carry out their relationship and more private than it might have been otherwise. What? Yeah. They were renting an apartment from the Robertsons, and they lived above their garage.

Damn. Yeah. Damn.

So that's not good. No. Like I said, it made it easier than it might have been otherwise. For example, their relationship might have petered out when Mamie was laid off from her position at the bank in the fall of 1931. But being in close proximity, her and Harry continued to see each other, so it did not.

Peter out. Because yeah, it just kept going.

Now we're going to fast forward a little bit to when... Because like I said, there's just not a ton known about her life. I gave you as much as.

I could. No, that was a good amount. Okay, I'm glad.

I feel.

Like I know who she is.

Yeah, Dave did a really good job of digging, too, and getting more info. I got a vibe. Let's flash forward to when Mimi is discovered. It is very brutal. I just want to give you a heads up. It's intense. At about 2:00 PM on June 22, 1932, Garland Davis, a young berry picker. He was making his way through the thickets around Trace Mountain in Logan when he stumbled upon a body. The woman's face had been very, very severely beaten to the point that she was almost unrecognizable. Oh, God. So, Garland immediately ran to get police who rushed to the scene and started combing the site for evidence. Eventually, as we know, the body would be identified as Mamie Thurman. She had last been seen two days earlier on the evening of Tuesday, June 21st, when she ran into an acquaintance at a store in downtown Logan, but she'd been missing since then. Upon first glance, it was obvious to investigators, even though a knife was found in the area where the body was discovered. It was obvious to them that Mamie had been killed somewhere else and then dumped in a ditch near the bryer patch.

Oh, okay.

One of the most obvious indications of her being killed somewhere else was the lack of blood at the scene. That was immediately one of the things they noticed. They also discovered Mamie's hat about 30 feet from her body, and they noted that a bullet hole had ripped through one side of her hat. Wow. Yeah. About eight feet in the other direction, one shoe was discovered, and the match appeared to be missing, which they took as further evidence that, quote, she had been slain at another point and her body taken to the top of the mountain to be hidden.

She lost the shoe somehow. Along the way. In the journey.

I don't think they ever found it. Now, Mamie's purse was also located near her body, and her cash and other belongings were still inside. So this wasn't robbery because she also had rings and other jewelry still on her body. They quickly ruled that out as a motive. Investigators had discovered tire tracks as well at the scene, indicating that somebody had driven up to the dump site and turned around. But other than that, there was little evidence at the scene to point toward a suspect or a motive. Huh. They're like, What the hell is going.

On here? Yeah.

But whoever did this was a fucking monster, and they had brutalized her. According to court documents, and this is where it gets really intense if you want to skip forward a little bit, her neck had been broken. Her throat was cut from one end to the other, and she'd been shot in the head twice. Oh, my God. With what investigators believed was a 38 caliber revolver.

That seems like so much overkill. It is. Absolutely. Those are three methods of killing someone.

In my opinion at least, somebody was very, very angry with her. During the coroner's inquest the following day, it was stated, this is interesting. It was stated that the cause of death was the knife wound to the throat, which had severed the tranchea, the carotid artery, and the jugular vein. They thought Mamie had been shot twice to make sure she was definitely dead. But this would later be amended after a review where they determined that the actual cause of death was the two bullet wounds in the head. They said her death was instantaneous and the broken neck and wound to the throat occurred post-mortem.

My God. I'm surprised they were even able, especially back then, to determine from the three of them, because I also wonder if this person was trying to confuse the cause of death. I wonder. Because those are three specific causes of death.

Right.

That's the thing. Those aren't just injuries, like slicing someone's throat is trying to kill them. Yeah, absolutely. Shooting them in the head, trying to kill them.

Breaking their neck, trying to kill them. Breaking their neck, trying to kill them. That's the thing I think they maybe could have been trying to pull them off here. According to the medical examiner, quote, One bullet entered behind the left ear and ranging upward emerged an inch and a half above the right ear. The other, entering on the left side of the forehead, made its exit at the back of her head. There were powder burns over the face and in the wound at the rear of the left ear. Death resulted instantly from the gunshot before the throat was cut.

Wow.

So intense.

That's really intense.

It's insane what was done to her. Now, despite the lack of evidence or other information to inform the case, police wasted no time in identifying Harry Robertson as their primary suspect. He was arrested in his home in Logan at about 8:30 PM that very same night.

The.

Arrest was almost based entirely on their rumored relationship. When he was questioned, he more or less confirmed that they did have an extramarital affair with each other, but he minimized the extent of it. Of course. According to Harry, he had several dates with Ms. Thurman, but said that he had seen Ms. Thurman only a few times within the last several months. He said the last time he saw her was the previous Saturday, June 18th. Okay. Later it will come out that that was.

A lie.

Oh, no. Now, Harry was not the only one arrested at the Robertson residence in connection with the murder. Clarence Stevenson, a 28-year-old black handyman, had been living in the Robertson home for the last five months. Based on his statement given at the time of arrest, investigators believed Stevenson, quote, was a go-between for Robertson and Ms. Thurman in arranging details of meetings. And then that was also corroborated by Harry Robertson. Now, Clarence wasn't technically employed by the Robertsons, but he lived at their house on and off for the last two years, and he'd do odd jobs. He would take care of their hunting dogs in exchange for the accommodation of room and board. Now, according to Harry, both he and Clarence were home all evening the night that Mimi disappeared, and Harry said he went to bed around 11:00.

Okay.

Now, rumor and innuendo might have led the police to Harry Robertson's home, but once they were there, they knew they were in the right place. A preliminary search of the residents turned up evidence they say pointed to Harry Robertson and/or Clarence Stevenson as the killer. Oh, damn. During a search of Harry's car, investigators found what they believed to be blood stains under the floor coverings. In the basement of the home, they found, stains believed to be caused by blood and a depression in the brick wall of the basement that officers said might have been caused by a bullet. Wow.

This is just like...

It's just like.

You're basically following the smoking guns. Here it is, literally.

Based on the evidence collected, Harry Robertson, his wife, and actually another border at the house were taken into custody. The three of them were held at the prosecutor's office, and Clarence Stevenson was also arrested. But on the other hand, he was, quote, secretly removed to a jail in Williamson as a precaution against mob violence because he's the only black man who was arrested out of these four people, and they're worried for.

Obvious reasons. Especially in that.

Time period? Especially in that time period. Please remember where we are. We're in the south. Oh, yes. We're in Kentucky. Absolutely. Really, really bad.

Things could have happened to him. Absolutely.

Now, not only did the murder call attention to Mimi's affair with Harry Robertson, but it also shined a very unwelcome light on the Amour Club, where she was said to be a frequent flyer. Just days after the murder, the press started putting out stories about the club, referring to it as a Rendezvous where at least half a dozen prominent Logan men with their women friends met occasionally.

Excuse me, their women friends?

Their women friends. They're saying like, These are the prominent men in the city or in the town. So it's like, your're pointing very specific fingers at people that you don't want to fuck with. Oh, it's getting messy. It's messier.

And it's so said that this is so messy and scandalous, but on the back of Mamie's brutal fucking murder. Yeah.

And in my opinion, the right person does not get convicted for this.

Interesting. But we'll get there.

All right. Now, as far as anybody knew, the club, the more club there did not play a role in Mamie's murder, but investigators still wanted to question as many patrons as possible, and that's why it got discovered and put into.

The press so much. Yeah, that makes sense.

Now, in the days after the murder, detectives also questioned Mamie's husband, Jack, who stated that he had been on night duty Tuesday and Wednesday night, and quote, Was seen frequently in the streets until 5:30 a. M. Wednesday morning.

Okay, so they were like, Jack is not- Yeah, not our guy. We need.

To worry about him. No, that basically accounted for his whereabouts during the time that Mimi was believed to have been murdered. Now, investigators also noted that he had no car, and he also didn't know how to drive, so it would have been very difficult and close to impossible for him to have murdered his wife and then transported her body up to the top of Trace Mountain and then back to be seen on the streets.

That'd be pretty tough. He didn't do it. Yeah.

I'm not saying he didn't arrange it. I don't know. I don't know.

At all. You're not saying he had anything to do with it, and you're not saying he had.

Nothing to do with it? Exactly, because I don't know.

I.

Wasn't there. I wasn't there. It was a very... I don't know how to go. Now, on June 25th, Harry Robertson and Claren Stevenson appeared before a packed living courtroom where they were arranged for Mamie Thurman's murder. I believe his wife was eventually let go and the other border was eventually let go. It was just Harry and Clarence now that we're going to stand.

For this. This feels very, that felt very burk and hair.

Yes.

How they bring everybody in and then they start snipping off people.

They slowly. Yeah, exactly. I think it's basically to see what they can get out of all of those people.

Yeah, see if they'll turn on each other, see if anything comes of it.

Exactly. Now, the session, the arraignment, took much longer than was expected because the case had drawn such a large crowd, it actually had to be moved to a larger circuit court. Both men pleaded not guilty to the charges, but only Claren Stevenson was called to the stand. I'm going to let you ponder that for a second.

Huh.

Now, he was guarded by half a dozen state troopers because, again, they were very concerned for his safety during this entire thing. Questioned under oath, he shared what he knew of Harry Robertson's relationship with Mamie. He told the court he had never heard Robertson make any threats toward Mamie. According to Stevenson, Harry and Mammy actually had plans to meet the night she disappeared, but he said those plans were broken the previous Sunday by Harry himself, and he'd actually been the one, Stevenson, to take a note to Mamie to let her know that they weren't going to be meeting up anymore.

Interesting.

For the most part, Claren Stevenson's testimony corroborated actually most of what Harry had told investigators in the days previous, but there were some details, either from Stevenson or Robertson, that contradicted previous testimony. Their stories lined up in some ways, but then in other ways, one would say something where the other one was like, No, that's not what happened, and vice versa.

It gets to be like, huh.

What really did happen?

Who's covering for who here? Yeah, exactly. Who's lying here?

Now, for example, when he was initially asked about the blood stains discovered in the car, Clarence told the detectives that they had often transported the hunting dogs in that vehicle, and occasionally their feet blood just from being outside. Oh, I know. And like, on rough terrain.

Oh, my goodness. So sad. That makes me sad. I know.

But when he was asked the same question by the prosecutor during the arraignment, he said, quote, The dogs were always carried in the back of the car, so he didn't know how the blood could have gotten under the floor coverings in the front. Oh, okay. -it was like -Interesting. -said one thing, but then was.

Like, actually, I don't know.

Now, it was at this point that Clarence Stevenson's demeanor changed dramatically, and he became reluctant to answer really any of the prosecutor's questions, and he was visibly nervous. The judge was like, Hey, what's going on? What's going on, buddy? He told the judge, he, quote, had seen a man at the back of the courtroom twirling a pistol. A man who could kill me, he told the judge. Now the judge was like, Okay, identify this person trying to kill you. We'll make sure that you're protected. Clarence was like, Absolutely. No, I'm not going to point him out. What? But being a black man in a small Kentucky town, I can't say that I don't understand his reluctance to- Absolutely. -point this.

Person out. No, that makes a lot of sense.

The only witness who gave testimony during the arraignment was a man named R. B. Harris. He was the local undertaker who performed the initial examination of the body. After the arraignment, the prosecutor, L. P. Hager, told reporters he intended to call both men, R. B. Harris and Claren Stevenson, as witnesses, along with several state troopers and anybody else marginally related to the case. He was going to call as many people as.

He could.

Now, the next day, additional testimony again undermined Claren Stevenson's story when mine worker Ed Dalton testified that he had seen Stevenson on State Road Number 22, near where Manny had been discovered just hours before she was found, is when he said he saw Clarence.

Now, Dalton's testimony was followed by Harry Robertson, who was called not to testify on his own behalf, but called to testify against Clarence Stevenson. The testimony was expected to be sensational and take up most of the day, but instead, it actually confirmed most of what Clarence Stevenson had already told the court.

Did it back, right? It a.

Little bit. Now, what was curious, though, was a letter said to have been written by Clarence Stevenson to his sister that the prosecution's office intercepted in the middle of all of this.

Huh.

The letter read, Please do all you can to help me and go to Mrs. Robertson and tell her that they have taken me to Williams to keep anyone from seeing me. But I will not tell anything to hurt Mr. Harry, and tell her and do stand up as we all know that it's going to be hard on me and Mr. Harry. They don't know anything to hurt us. That's why they have taken me away from Logan. So tell Mr. Harry that I will die before I lie on him or Mrs. Robinson. Please help me. Okay. Now, I don't really think there's anything incriminating in that letter, personally. Yeah, I don't think so. All he was saying was like, I'm not going to lie, and I would never do anything to hurt them.

And even him saying they don't know anything to hurt me, that's why I guess people could probably look at that and be like, Does that mean there is something? And they just don't know it? But I take it as like, There's nothing. That's how I take it. I'm confident in the fact that they don't have anything.

That's how I take it. I can't-.

Because otherwise, how could he be so confident that they don't have something if he did it?

Exactly.

Yeah.

I guess it could be taken the other way. It's very interesting.

You could speculate, I guess, but there's no smoke and gun or confession in there to me.

That's how I felt. Yeah. As far as Robertson and Stevenson's were concerned, the letter hinted at some scheme or conspiracy to railroad these two men for a crime they didn't commit, and they doubted the validity of the letter in the first place.

Oh, okay. That's interesting.

They basically were like, I think maybe this got made up somehow, and the prosecution is going to use this against them, but I don't even really know how they're.

Going to. Again, messy.

Messy. Now, defense attorney CL, a step, told the court, The state's case should be built on a substantial foundation. You will not get justice by accusing the wrong man with the crime. And a few days later, after the arraignment, Harry Robertson posted $10,000 bail and was released from jail. But Clarence Stevenson was unable to post the bond, so he was remanded to his cell in Williamson. Now, Harry's out, but Clarence is still in jail. When realistically, at the beginning of all of this, he was believed to be.

The accomplice. I was just going to say he was not.

The- Not the main guy here.

-the main guy they were even going after in the first place, and now they're treating it like he is the only guy?

Oh, just wait.

I don't know about this.

It's horrible. While the investigation had moved... Excuse me, surprisingly, swiftly, from the start. There was a brief lull in the case during July when investigators had to wait for the blood test to be completed. When the test results finally came back in late July, they did confirm that the blood found in Harry Robertson's car, I repeat, in Harry Robertson's car and on Clarence Stevenson's clothes was human.

Oh!

Blood was also discovered on a straight razor that had been found in the basement. But according to the chemist who conducted the study, the stains on the razor, quote, were too faint to test accurately. But if you have found blood in the car and blood on one of their clothes, I'm willing to bet the blood on the razor was human.

Yeah. At that point- There's nothing in me that believes that's not human blood. I'm not saying it's her blood, but I'm just saying it's human. I feel like that's human blood.

In early September of 1932, the case had stalled, and despite the offer of $1,000 reward for any information that could lead to a conviction, no new leads were turned up. All the while, Clarence is just sitting in a prison cell.

For such a brutal crime, to have no leads and to just be holding this guy?

Yeah. Damn. It's nuts. The prosecutor made the decision to take the case to the grand jury based entirely on circumstantial evidence because they really didn't have an option. Like you said, they're wasting all this time and some one person sitting in jail, another is sitting in jail and others out on bond, and this isn't really going anywhere. Absolutely. He, between a rock and a hard place, was like.

Let's do this.

Now, Harry admitted to having an affair with Manny, and Clarence admitted to his role in helping facilitate the infidelity. But once again, they both denied any involvement with this murder as they were headed to trial. After two months of heavy press coverage and rumors, almost everyone in the county had formed an opinion on the case. Of course. Some felt that Harry was guilty, while other people found it hard to believe that somebody as smart as Harry would, quote, Leave such an obvious trail of blood from his basement to his sedan, from the house to the mountainside. I'm like, in the heat of the moment?

I wouldn't be so sure about that.

Look at how brutally she was killed.

Yeah.

Exactly. He could have been very angry and anger distracts.

Yeah, exactly. Makes them do stupid things.

Now others thought the whole case seemed suspicious from the start of everything, and the evidence was too convenient. Almost like somebody was trying to frame Harry for the murder. Then there were even some people who believed that Harry's wife, Louise, had taken matters into her own hands and killed Maynie in order to end the affair.

Huh. We're really speculating here.

We're all, and we.

Continue to- Wildly.

While opinions on who killed Maynie were divided among the residents of Logan, a majority of people felt that Harry was somehow involved. They figured that Claren Stevenson's participation was in disposing of the body after the murder had been committed. Oh, okay. That's how he got blood on his clothes. That's what people were speculating and assuming. I am of that mindset.

Yeah, that doesn't seem totally out of the realm of possibility.

Because he's got blood on his clothes.

Yeah, I mean, how do you.

Explain that? But what motivation does he have to murder Mammy?

Well, that's where my problem was. It's like, do I think he didn't have that he was totally removed from it? No, I really don't. It seems like he's involved in some way, shape, or form, but that could be totally on the fringe of it, like you said, which is not good, I suppose. But I think we should be looking for the person who actually did it, too.

Exactly.

I just don't see it yet. Because like you said, I don't know what the motivation is. Exactly. To do the.

Actual deed. Right.

To help afterwards, I get it. I get what his motivation would have been, but I can't connect it with the other part.

Yeah, I think you and I are on the same page here. Now, the grand jury reviewed the evidence for several days before returning with the shocking decision not to indict Harry Robertson on any of the 58 felony charges he faced. How? I don't know. How? Excuse me, I do. He's white. That's wild.

Yeah, he's white. Remember, his father was the sheriff at one point. I didn't think of that. Yeah. He's got a great reputation in the community. I mean, aside from.

Being.

Stepping out on his wife. Yeah, that. He had faced 58 felony charges and was not going to be indicted on any of them. Wow. While Claren Stevenson was indicted on several charges, including one for the murder of Mamie Thurman. Where the fuck is the evidence of that? Bullshit.

I don't know about that.

Prosecutor Lloyd Hager was outraged, actually, by the grand jury's decision. Belie that Harry Robertson was the main actor in this case, he vowed he would not end the prosecutor's investigation of Robertson. He was like, We're going.

To.

Continue looking for anything that can connect him to this.

Yeah, because how are you just letting it go?

Well, and it's like there is no Clarence involvement without Harry. I'm sorry. There's just not.

No, that's how.

I feel. It's like we're going to indict one person who's connected to this other person. I feel like it's a duo here. I feel like.

It's a duo here. That doesn't make any sense.

I feel like the real.

Big, bad guy here, is Harry. To me, seems.

Like Harry. Me too. I mean, there's blood in his car.

I don't know. I'm someone down here.

I'm not excusing what Clarence did. If he is the one that disposed of her body and helped along with that. I'm not excusing that. But I am just saying it's wrong to punish one person and not.

Both people. Yeah, that's the problem that I'm having. It's like, let's get everybody. Exactly. Why are we not trying to cast a big net here and get everybody that's involved?

I think a lot of it had to do with connections. Because remember, Harry is a prominent guy in town. He actually got Jack Thurman, basically, his.

Police job. That's true.

He's got a lot of influence.

The prosecutor felt the same as us. Like I just said, he was like, We're not going to stop until we figure out something to pin this on him. But regardless of the prosecutor's beliefs, Harry Robertson was allowed to walk free, and Claren Stevenson's trial was set for early October. Wow. Unbelievable. Claren Stevenson's trial began in Logan County Circuit Court on October 10th, 1932, before Judge Naaman Jackson. Lloyd Hagen and assistant prosecuting attorney, Emmett Skaggs, acted on behalf of the state, while Stevenson was represented by CL, Estep and Chester Chambers, the defense attorneys who had also represented him during the arraignment and the indictment. The opening day of the trial attracted more than 1,000 people to the court. Damn. Most of those people packed themselves into the courtroom to witness what was at the time, the biggest case in Logan County history. Wow. And outside, additional people waited to get in while street vendors sold water, fruit, snacks, this, that, and the other thing.

Wow. That's like a circus.

It's like, You all were here because a woman was brutally murdered.

That's the thing. I'm like, damn. We were really scraping the bottom of the barrel back then.

I understand being interested in court proceedings. For sure. I would never say that I wasn't because of who we are right now. No, of course. But like, there's a certain - Street vendor.

Selling -there's a certain decorum and a court, I would say. Yeah, exactly. I don't think you should be selling hot dogs at a court case for a murdered woman?

No, me either.

I think we can all agree on that. I think we can. I think that's one thing we can all stand together on. That'd be great. Look, we found it. Look at that. United, we all stand, I think. Here we are.

Now, the prosecutor's original theory had been that Harry Robertson murdered in order to cover up their affair and her affairs with other local, prominent men. He had enlisted the help of Claren Stevenson to dispose of the body on Trace Mountain.

But.

When the grand jury failed to indict Robertson, they were left with only one suspect and forced to prosecute what was, like we were just saying, seemingly a motiveless crime.

That's the thing. I got to know what the hell is going on here.

Instead of offering a motive, the prosecutors just stuck to the evidence, occasionally implying that Claren Stevenson may have acted in a misguided attempt to protect his boss, Harry.

Okay.

I.

Don't see it.

But they were grasping at.

Straws here. I was just going to say, I guess in terms of grasping at straws, that's a decent attempt because you're going to convince people, some people of that.

I think that's the only thing they've.

Ever done. I think that's one of those things that I could see people believing that partially.

Now, on the first day of witness testimony, the undertaker, R. B. Harris and Dr. W. S. Rowen, took the stand, and they explained to the jury how the body was discovered and transported back to the undertaker's office, as well as describing the extent of Mamie's injuries. Her husband, Jack, was also called that day to testify, and he was to tell the jury of his whereabouts at the time that Mamie had been killed, and he gave a detailed account of his life with Mammy. He told the jury, We were always on good terms and almost never fought. His demeanor on the stand was that of a man who was genuinely grieving. The judge actually had to ask him to speak up multiple times because he tended to speak softly whenever he spoke of Mammy.

Oh, that breaks my heart.

He really.

Did love her, it sounds like. And to have this...

So messy. Oh, yeah. And to.

Have the man she was having an affair with.

Be.

All involved in this. She was brutally murdered, and it could have been the guy who she was having an affair with, and it's like-.

And it could have been the guy she was having an affair with trying to help out other men that she may have been having affairs with.

Yeah, and it's like this poor guy is grieving his life and then having to deal with everybody knowing the sorted details of their... That's sad. I feel.

Really bad. Having your dirty laundry aired like that-.

During a while trying to grieve?

While trying to grieve, exactly. Horrific. Yeah.

I can't imagine. I was just going to say.

The fact that the judge had to be like, Sorry, can you speak up? Because he just always spoke softly when he talked about her. It's just sad. But the final witness called that day was Fannie Jones. She was a local black woman who was known to be friendly with both Mamie and Claren Stevenson. The prosecutor suggested that it was Fannie who had provided a private room to Mamie, where she could meet with many suitors. But Fannie vehemently denied that allegation. Now, other witnesses called to testify included state troopers and investigators and a number of local citizens who claimed that they had seen Claren Stevenson in Mamie's company days before the murder. There were also witnesses who claimed they saw Clarence driving in the area where Mamie's body was discovered not long before she was around.

Okay.

Now, the most important testimony ended up coming from Harry Roberts and himself, and he can get fucked. Oh, no. In a moment that everybody seemed to be waiting for, Harry provided all the lured details of his relationship with including that contrary to what he had initially told investigators, they had been carrying on this affair of theirs for two years. He told the judge he had last seen Mammy in his home around 8:00 PM on the evening she was killed. He lied to them originally.

Oh, that's fine.

He said he hadn't seen her for, I believe, two days. But now he's saying he saw her the very night she was killed in his home. He said after he saw her around 8:00 PM that night, he left the house to take his children to the swimming pool. What a doting.

Father, everybody. I was just going to say doting family man.

He said, That was the last time I saw her. Stevenson was in my house at the time. You fucking asshole.

Damn.

To just turn on this guy like that?

Damn. When he very well may have written a letter to his sister being like, Help them. Protect them. I would never lie on them.

Now.

Harry went on to explain that when he returned home, he noticed that his Sedan was missing, and it appeared as though Claren Stevenson had stepped out. Holy shit. He turned on him big time to save.

His own ass. Yeah. Like, what a dick. Absolutely.

Now, even Louise Robertson, his wife, was called to the stand, and she told the jury that actually, she and Mamie had been close friends until she, quote, had reason to believe she and my husband were intimate.

Oh, man, this is so messy. It is.

She said that she didn't have any proof of their affair and nothing in particular had tipped her off. She said it was just her women's intuition that led her to believe that they had been unfaithful.

I'm usually right.

Now, even after all of that, though, Louise stood by her husband. She confirmed his alibi of taking the kid swimming, and she said, Yep, Clarence did go out immediately after my husband left the house. Upon cross-examination, Louise confirmed that her husband did own a gun, a 38 caliber revolver, which is exactly the gun that maybe have been shot with.

I was going to say it sounds familiar.

But when she was asked to confirm that, she quickly added that when investigator searched the house, she overheard one of the officers say the pistol hadn't been fired. Wow.

Objection.

Hearsay. Yeah.

The fuck. I overheard it. Maybe.

Okay. Yeah. Maybe not, though.

No.

And, gee. How- How convenient is that? How convenient is that? Now, the only thing Louise failed to mention on the stand was the fact that she, knew Mammy, had been concocting a scheme to drive a wedge between her and her husband. According to Clarence, being stuck in the middle of their love triangle eventually became too much for him to bear, especially after Mammy confided in that she intended to break up the Robertson's marriage. Clarence then told Louise of this plan just months before Mammy was killed.

Oh, damn.

Yeah. He took the stand on October 14th and did his best to defend himself and explain the inconsistencies and his stories, but he was a black man in West Virginia. Sorry, I've been saying we were in Kentucky. We started in Kentucky. We ended up in West Virginia. We're now in West Virginia. Sorry about that. He's a black man in West Virginia who was accused of murdering a white woman, his defense was an uphill battle. He spent-.

To say the very least.

The very least. There aren't even words, I don't think. He spent nearly the entire day on the witness stand, first answering questions from his own attorney, excuse me, then followed by cross-examination from the prosecutor. During this questioning, Clarence told the jury about various vague and anonymous threats that he'd gotten since being taken into custody, including one incident that involved intimidation and police brutality. Can you believe it?

Can you?

Jeez. Wow. Like, this far back? Yeah. Still. According to Clarence, he was in the back of a state trooper's car traveling up toward the top of Trace Mountain when they heard gunshots near the vehicle. Clarence claimed the trooper turned to him and said the shots were from the mob that was waiting at the top of the mountain for him, unless he told them what he knew. He said the police officer would throw him out to the mob, who would almost certainly kill him.

My God.

Now, when the prosecutor asked how he responded in that moment, Clarence said, If I was making my dying statement, it would be, I don't know any more than I've told. Wow. Like, If I was on my deathbed right now, I would tell you- This is what I would say.

-i've told you everything.

Now, on October 14th, after closing arguments had been made, the jury retired to their chambers for deliberation. After reviewing the evidence and testimony for less than an hour, they returned with a verdict of guilty, but, quote, recommended mercy, thereby making it mandatory that he be given life imprisonment versus the death penalty. Wow. So even this jury knew that he had enacted a loan, and they were like, We can't put this man to death over this, when we're not doing anything to the other man who is almost most certainly involved.

Yeah, absolutely.

Now, defense attorney Chester Chambers immediately moved that the verdict be set aside and the judge granted this motion, and that deferred Clarence Stevenson's sentence until arguments could be heard in the circuit court. Now, the sentencing hearing began on October 21st, and during it, several notes were found at the courthouse that appeared to be written by a concerned citizen. The writer claimed to have witnessed Mamie's murder and indicated that Claren Stevenson had nothing to do with the crime. But other than that, they didn't give much information. Now, presented with the letters, both the prosecution and the defense actually agreed that they were probably fabricated in order to divert attention from Clarence. They didn't present them to the judge. I don't know about that decision.

Making, but- That's confusing.

-it is a little confusing.

But.

On October 25th, having no additional information, the judge, Naaman Jackson, listened to the arguments from both sides and then sentenced Claren Stevenson to life imprisonment for the murder of Amy Thurman. Now, he and his lawyers appealed the conviction in November of 1933, and three, claiming, among other things, that the jury commissioners failed to include any black jurors solely because of their race. They had admitted improper evidence and refused to admit proper evidence, and then there was a whole myriad of other things that they had done wrong. But the justices on the Supreme Court of appeals listened to both arguments and then rejected the plea and upheld the lower court's verdict. In their summary judgment, they rejected nearly every point made by the writing, We would not be warranted in reversing the judgment for insufficiency of evidence under the circumstances presented by the proof so convincing of guilt. It's like, what convinced you of.

The guilt? I was going to say, is the guilt in the room with us right now?

Can.

You point to it?

What's convincing about anything.

That they said? Yeah, I don't know about this one. This one, that's a little shady.

It's all shady, and we all know what.

It's rooted in. Because like I said, can I see him being somebody who helped after the fact?

Definitely.

But I don't see the murder.

I don't see the murder. I don't see it.

At all. Or at least they haven't convinced me.

That's for sure. No, definitely not me. But upon their ruling, Clarence was returned to West Virginia Penitentiary to continue serving his sentence. In 1939, he was transferred to Huttinsville Correctional Center due to overcrowding. Then in late 1941, after complaining of stomach pains for months and months and months, he was diagnosed with stomach cancer. Holy shit. And he ended up passing away several months later on April 24th, 1942. Oh, my God. So he did spend the rest of his life in prison for this. Wow. Now, to many residents in Logan County, Clarence Stevenson was a scapegoat. A very easy target on which the terrible crime could be pinned and then shut away in prison.

Yeah, that's what it seems like.

Because if you took Harry Robertson out of the equation, like we've been saying this entire time, there wasn't evidence to say Clarence and Mamie even knew each other very well. Had it not been for Harry, they might not have ever spoken.

It's like, and now we're supposed to believe that he just killed her.

Out of nowhere?

Like, out of.

Literally nowhere. But when it came to the real killer, there were several theories, and they have been talked about for hundreds and hundreds of years. The most obvious and popular of the theories was that Harry murdered Mammy after finding out that she kept a list of her illicit affairs with several prominent men to prevent her... He killed her to prevent her from exposing their infidalities and ruining their reputations. Okay. Similarly, some people actually believed that Harry's wife, Louise, had killed Mammy either because she learned of Mamie's plan to break up the marriage or because she simply wanted to end.

The affair. Yeah.

I'm not sure about that.

Yeah, that one... This one's hard.

It's hard.

I don't know about that, though.

Yeah, I'm not sure. To me, I really do think two people were here for this.

I think that too, but then... But I don't know.

I mean, it could have been one person.

It's very much two. My gut says two. -very much two. Yeah, my initial thought was there was two people.

Because the gunshots, the sliced throat.

That's the thing. It feels really brutal, which again, one person could absolutely do this. We've seen it. Especially because they think she was shot first, and then the sliced throat and the broken neck was done afterwards. It's like, Yeah, I guess one person could do that because all they would technically have to do to incapacitate her was shoot her. Then afterwards, it's just do the stuff afterwards. But also it's like, Why this throat slash with one person?

To me.

That says- That's like a personal thing. It feels like.

That's what I thought too. Just because he had already killed her. So why do that? Besides?

To make it worse. And just because you're angry.

I guess, yeah. You know what? The more I think about it, I.

Think it.

Is one person.

Then the other person just came along.

To-the other person was to help get rid of the evidence. Yeah.

I don't think it was Louise, though.

No. No. No, that one doesn't check.

For me. But another popular theory was that Mamie had been killed by an organized crime group in order to prevent her from exposing their liquor operations in the area because remember, prohibition. I'm not saying I don't see this. I could. Personally, I think Carrie had something to do with it, though. Throughout the investigation and trial, it became clear that Mamie was a well-organized, opportunistic woman who had been keeping notes and gathering evidence that she thought might be useful to her in the future. As a regular patron of the Amore Club, it was likely that she had been intimately familiar with men responsible for the illegal gambling, the prostitution, quote-unquote, and the liquor coming in and out of Logan County. Okay. Some believed that if she had been discovered to pose a threat to the organized criminal operation behind those illicit activities, she would have been killed in order to prevent her from going to the police.

This one makes the most.

Sense to me. And as a support for this theory, some believers pointed to the execution style method of killing used in.

The murder. That's what's striking to me, is the methods used here feels strange to me. This makes the most sense.

I think earlier you were saying with all the different motives, it seems like they were trying... Or all the different methods, excuse me, they were trying to confuse the police.

Yeah, that seems like-.

That has organized crime.

Written all over it. Yeah, it does.

And maybe, I mean, Harry's dad was a sheriff. Sometimes they can be crookie. You never know. He was involved in all the same things that Mamie was. Maybe he was connected to these people and had... I mean, the fact that all the stuff was found in his car in his basement, leads me to believe that he had some involvement in this. Yeah. Remember, she lived above his garage.

That is very true.

I could see this organized crime thing being.

Part of it. Part of a puzzle.

But I still think Harry has a piece in that puzzle.

Because it's like the human blood. Well, we can't tell that it's human blood on the straight razor, technically. But in his car. We don't have that confirmation. But there is human blood in his car, and there's human blood on.

Clarence's clothes. Clarence's clothes.

Do we know that it's Mamies without any doubt? No.

Because it was the late 20s.

But we know it was human. But we know it was human. But we know whose blood is all over your clothes. Exactly. And whose blood is all over your car? Because if it's not Mamies, then who the fuck is it? Whose is it? Who else.

Did you hurt? Yeah.

I feel like it had to be an involvement somehow. I think so. But the organized crime thing really makes the most sense.

It does make a lot of sense. Logistically. Now, other residents around Logan have their own theories, most having to do with Mamie being killed in order to protect the reputation of Harry and the elite citizens that moved in Mammy's circle. But regardless of who was responsible for her death, these days, the memories of Mammy Thurman, Harry Robertson, and Clarence Stevenson have been all but forgotten by the residents of Logan County. But there are some people who believe a part of Mammy still remains. According to local legend, if you drive out to Road 22, near the spot where Mamie's body was left, left nearly a century ago, you might catch a glimpse of her ghost wandering along the roadway, they say. Oh, shit. We have a ghost. I know. There are also people who claim that if you leave your car in neutral while you're sitting on this road, you might even find an unseen presence pushing the vehicle uphill.

I always.

Love those. Some people believe that is the evidence of the enduring spirit of Mammy Thurman.

She's just helping you out. Yeah.

Go, Mammy. It's worth mentioning that writer Joyce Robertson actually wrote a screenplay about the last few months of Mammy's life. Oh, wow. It was performed at the local high school, but then it was performed even after that. I'd be really interested to see it.

Yeah, that would be really interesting.

It sounds really good. Just knowing the cool chick that she was and all the wild things she.

Got up to. Exactly. She was a really.

Cool chick. She was. She was so ahead of her time. Yeah, she was. Just so sad that she died so young. It's also really sad that one person went to prison for it.

And that it's the person you're like-.

Who is on the.

Branches of it?

-on the branches of it? The least.

Connected to it. -on the branches of it. -probably the least.

Connected to it. The fact that Harry Robertson just got to go about the rest of his life.

Yeah, I don't know about that.

I don't know about any of that. But that is the tragic case of Mamie Thurman. Wow. It makes me so mad that we don't have full answers.

I know. Because at the end there, it really leaves it open to interpretation, and it's like-.

The interpretation just leads to so many more questions.

More questions. That's the thing. You think you get it, and then you're like, Wait, but this.

Right, because we thought we had totally got it, and then we get to the organized crime part, and you're like-.

You're like, Well, shit, that makes a lot of sense. That makes a lot of sense. No matter what, it's just so tragic. It is.

Poor Mammy. It is. And poor Jack. Yeah, poor Jack. I don't think he was involved in it in.

Any way. I don't think.

So either. I was leading you astray before.

Yeah, you were.

You're.

Welcome. Thanks.

But as always, we hope that you keep listening. And we.

Hope you keep it weird.

But not so weird that-No.

It's too weird that your fire alarm goes off at 3:00 AM.

Yeah, don't.

Keep it that weird. Hey, Prime members, you can listen to more of it early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen ad-free with Wundry Plus an Apple podcast. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at wundry. Com/survey.