Wondery plus subscribers can listen to morbid early and ad free. Join Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

You're listening to a morbid network podcast. Many put their hope in Dr. Serhat. His company was worth half a billion dollars. His research promised groundbreaking treatments for HIV and cancer. But the brilliant doctor was writing a secret. You can listen to Dr. Death, bad magic, ad free by subscribing to Wondry plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. Hey, weirdos. I'm Elena. I'm Ash. And this is morbid.

We were doing a little room silence before we started recording because it makes it sound better or something, I don't know, space and noise dynamics, but.

Space and noise dynamics, brought to you by ash.

But then Elena was spaced out, so me and Mikey were just staring at her like, girl, are you going to say, hey, weirdos or not?

I was. I was spaced out because I don't know how to save documents on a computer and actually then send them to.

Oh, that sounds a.

It gets a little hairy on my end because it's a little difficult.

Difficult, lemon difficult. It's a lot.

I don't know how to fix it. But did you figure it out? Not quite, but we'll get there.

I usually just copy and paste a link.

That's pretty smart. Yeah, but some people don't like that. They don't like a link.

I don't care what they like.

No, I don't give a shit what people like.

Send what I can send.

I do my best. I do my best. That's all you could do. That's all I could do.

All you can do. Oh, everybody, it's been snowing today. Everybody, it's been snowing. I'm about to the country.

I get it away from the snow.

I am jealous.

I'm like, snow. I like winter, but this has been kind of poopy.

Yeah, but you're not that jealous because I'm going on a cruise and you don't like cruises.

No, I'm not jealous of that.

I'm so fucking excited. I'm about to utilize that drink package. I'm about to utilize that hot tub. I'm about to utilize that free. I was going to say for free wifi, but there isn't that free wifi. In fact, the wifi is pretty darn expensive wifi, but I'll be around if you need me.

Poor side. Hopefully we won't. Hopefully you can just have a nice, relaxing vacation.

Yeah, don't need me. Don't get Covid while I'm gone this time.

Oh, Lord have mercy. I hope not. I think I'm in that, like, aren't I in that little immunity period?

Hyperimmunity.

That's what they say. That's what I say.

Hey. My God.

We can't stop singing.

It's a murder on the charge floor.

Oh, yeah. Update. I know I'm updating you every single episode about my feelings on Saltbird. Yeah.

What was your previous update?

My previous update was I'm like, maybe I don't know about it. I'm going to watch it. And it is partially ash that has convinced me. I want you all to know that.

Louder for the people in the back.

One more time. Ash definitely convinced me. Oh, baby. But also, TikTok has indoctrinated me.

Yeah, there is that. Of it all, I think TikTok is actually helping me figure out how I feel about it. I think I've decided that overall, it's a great movie.

Okay.

I would probably watch it again, I think if, like, really was in the mood to get my shit know, sometimes.

You'Re in the mood to get your shit rocked.

And I feel Drew has decided. He was like, I don't know if I like.

It wasn't for him. Yeah. I'm just, like, intrigued. Like, I think I'm too intrigued not to at this point. I've seen too much. I've heard too much, I've seen too many reactions. I am vibing hard with that song.

Who is?

I've seen the end and where that song comes from. So I'm like, you know what? I want to have that energy in my life. Maybe.

You like that.

You can't deny that's great energy at the end. I mean, like, for him, maybe not for everyone else.

You need to watch.

No, I know what happens. I know why he's doing that. Oh, yeah.

You're just crazy.

I've been spoiled.

You're just cuckoo nuts.

I'm just cuckoo nuts.

I guess you could argue that his. Yeah, he's having a blast.

I think he's having a blast the.

Whole way through, and we don't even know it.

I'm sure he is having a blast. No, he is.

That's the thing at one point. Sorry, I won't spoil anything.

I don't want to spoil a spoil.

But you like that song at the end, which I also love. But I also. I don't even know what the correct wording is, but I fuck so heavy with that. One, two, three, fall.

Yeah. That one. I can't get down with that one.

It just makes me want to celebrate something.

But murder on the dance floor and I can get down with that. Yeah. We showed it to the kids this.

Morning and they were like, I don't know about this.

Yeah, they were like, they were like, this song is weird.

We were like, I don't know.

Have a good day at school. Have a good day at school.

Have a good day at school.

Bye.

Well, there's really no transition out of that, but that's what we do. We talk about weird, random shit such as Saltburn and then random songs that are having a resurgence and then we say there's really no transition for that. I'm going to tell you a sad, awful story. It's what we do, so that's what we're doing right now.

We're going to continue to do it. Yeah.

And for a while, forever. That's a lot of commitment. But no, today we're going to be talking about the murder of Gary Triano. This is a crazy case. I think this is actually like one of the first datelines that I ever watched when I was really getting into true crime.

We got a Dateline?

Yeah, I think so. I didn't watch it again recently, but now I want to watch it. But let's get into it.

Okay. Let's get into it.

Well, Gary Triano, he was born in Sacramento, California on November 6, 1943 and he grew up in Arizona. After graduating from high school in 1961, he enrolled at the University of Arizona and eventually he did graduate with his degree in accounting in 1965. So college graduate. Woo. Once he was done with school he ended up marrying Mary Cram in the late sixty s and they welcomed their first baby. In 1970 they had a daughter that they named Heather. And then Heather was followed the next year by a son, Brian.

Okay.

By 1970 Gary had found work as a car salesman in Tucson and with the arrival of their second child he really wanted to take his professional life more seriously. Kind of level up a little bit.

Level up. Level up. Level up.

So in 1971 he got a real estate license and embarked on his first development project. This was going to be a 97 home development in the northeast part of Tucson. And the project did eventually go through, but it wasn't without protests from the public and a significant amount of zoning red tape. This wasn't just an easy project that he started out with. It was a little bit of a nightmare.

Sounds like it.

But it was actually his early experiences with this development that prompted him to actually run for city council in the spring of 1973, he told reporters, zoning must best utilize the available land for the benefit of the total community, not just for the next door neighbor or the real estate developer. So he was like getting into it. He wanted to make it a better experience for the community as a whole.

He's doing the damn thing.

He is. But unfortunately, he was eventually deemed ineligible to run for the seat because he failed to meet the residency requirement for the ward. But that didn't matter because he remained committed to working to overhaul the city's zoning laws and make them friendlier towards developers. In the years that followed, Gary worked really hard to build a name for himself in the real estate and finance industries. He invested in properties and developments around Arizona and actually he even branched out into other areas, including film.

Oh wow.

Yeah, he's doing it all. In 1978, he and Mary, his wife, went to the canned film festival where a film that he actually executive produced called Mafu Cage debuted and was followed by a big old industry party.

Wow, this is fancy.

It is. Unfortunately though, while his business prospered throughout the late seventy s and into the early 80s, his relationship with Mary was slowly crumbling. I'm not sure, like all the ins and outs, but it does sound like he had a lot of projects going on. She's finding herself like a new mom and probably alone a lot. It sounds, but it just wasn't working out. And by late 1985, he had actually started seeing another woman named Pamela Phillips.

Oh no.

So not great.

It's never good when it starts that way.

No. By the following year, he and Mary decided to divorce. And in October of 1986, Gary and Pam actually got married in San Diego, California. So they started seeing each other in 1985, like late 1985. And by October 86, they were married.

Wow.

So it was like wham, bam.

Yeah. It was just, thank you, Pam. Boom. Thank you Pam. That was very good. Wham, bam.

Going to marry you, Pam.

There you go.

Now, unlike Gary's first wife, Mary, who was active in community groups and charitable organizations, she was like really into the community as a whole. Pam was the opposite. A lot of people saw her as the embodiment of self centered excess characteristics of the finance industry in the late 1980s.

Wow. They were okay.

Essentially, they kind of thought she was a bitch.

I was going to say. That's what that sounds like.

It's a nice way to say she was a bitch.

Very long winded way of saying she's kind of a bitch. Yeah, I'm not saying that she was. They just kind of saying that.

According to Tucson, weekly Pam, quote, grew up in the Tucson country club privilege and had always enjoyed a high visibility life of luxury. She was also active in Tucson real estate development and republican politics, which was actually rare for women at the time. She worked a lot and a reporter for the Tucson Weekly wrote. She used her beauty to pursue listings, deals and commissions, and she was not above using cutthroat tactics to get what.

She mean at this very moment right now. She sounds like a boss bitch.

That's actually exactly what I was just about to say.

Okay.

In this one moment.

Yeah, I know nothing about this case. Yeah. I don't know who any of these people are. I'm just saying, in this one moment, that could change.

You can't deny it. Yeah, she was fucking going, it sounds like boss bitch moves now. Another friend and political insider told a reporter in 2001, pam will rip your heart out for our commission. The nicest person.

Yeah. I mean, that's pretty intense. Yeah.

Now, if Gary's life with Mary, his previous wife, had been chill and relatively conservative, his life with Pam was the exact opposite. Yet again, they lived a social life very much in the public eye. That included entertaining wealthy guests from real estate and finance industries. Like some guy named Donald Trump.

Who?

Yeah, I don't know him. And his then wife, Marla Maples.

I don't know her either. It's not ringing a bell.

But yeah, they were friends of them.

Crazy.

Wild Pam and Gary became regular fixtures at society events and fundraisers. University of Arizona basketball games and the Tucson Country Club, almost always traveling in Gary's preferred mode of transportation, a rented stretch limo.

A rented stretch limo.

In my notes, I wrote, subtle.

I was going to say that is the most conspicuous car. It is.

It's also just so.

Eighty s. A rented nouveau limo. Eighty s. Yes. Love it.

So while nobody doubted that there was love between Pam and Gary, friends would later say that, quote, it was also money that Pam truly loves. Money.

Money. Wow.

On brand.

Did you do that? No, I didn't.

But in the mid 1980s, Gary had plenty of money. He was at the peak of his career and he was living a life that would later be described by the press as extravagant. Why couldn't I just say that word? Extravagant? Confident and flamboyant. He and Pam owned a home on the grounds of the prestigious skyline country club. They had a private chauffeur, they owned a private jet, and they always used it for trips between Arizona, California, Nevada, New York. They were just popping off.

Damn. Yeah.

And actually, she had made a considerable career for herself with assets totaling nearly 2 million by her own account.

Holy shit.

But Pam was happy to quit working after she and Gary got married, embracing a new life where he provided her with everything that she needed.

Wow.

Academy is a new scripted podcast that follows Ava Richards, played by HBO's industries Maihala Harold, a brilliant scholarship student who has to quickly adapt to her newfound eat or be eaten world. Ava's ambitions take hold, and her small town values break in hopes of becoming the first scholarship student to make the list. Bishop Gray's all coveted academic top ten, curated by the headmaster himself. But after realizing she has no chance at the list on her own, she reluctantly accepts an invitation to a secret underground society that pulls the strings on campus life and academic success. If she bends to their will, she'll have everything she's ever dreamed of. But at what cost? Academy takes you into the world of a cutthroat private school where power, money, and sex collide in a game of life and death. Follow Academy on the Wandery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes of Academy early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus.

Hi, I'm Lindsay Graham, host of Wondery's podcast, American Scandal. We bring to life some of the biggest controversies in us history. Presidential lies, corruption in sports, corporate fraud. In our newest series, we go to Baltimore, where in the spring of 2017, a police corruption scandal shocked the city. At the heart of it was an elite plainclothes unit called the Gun Trace Task Force. It was supposed to be the Baltimore Police Department's best of the best, a group of highly decorated detectives who excelled at getting drugs and guns off the streets. But they operated with little oversight, creating an environment where criminal cops could flourish by falsifying evidence and robbing suspects. Follow american scandal on the Wondry app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge american scandal, police corruption in Baltimore, early and ad free right now on Wondre plus.

Now, within a year of the wedding, Pam gave birth to their first child, followed by another three years later. In the best years of their marriage, Gary and Pam were pretty generous with their money. They would always bring friends along on their lavish vacations to flashy destinations, and they took care of those that they loved. Yeah, and their friendships with the likes of that guy named Trump and their regular trips to Las Vegas and Atlantic City. They were more than just casual associations, because gambling actually played a big role in Gary's not only personal but professional life.

Oh, okay.

Throughout the 80s, he had built part of a big part of his business and his reputation on developing Arizona's indigenous gambling industry and gaming industry, working with tribal commissions from multiple native american tribes to develop large casinos and resorts. And by the late 80s, his interest had expanded beyond the Arizona borders to include developments and gaming projects in the Caribbean, China, and even the Middle east. So, damn, he's going worldwide.

Worldwide.

Mr. Worldwide.

There you go.

No. The real estate and development business often put Gary in close proximity to known members of organized crime families, including Joseph Banano.

The bananas, the bananas, they just keep coming around.

I know. I found myself in Arizona again.

Yeah.

But in case you forgot, from my last Arizona case, where Joseph Bonano was a little part of it, he was the head of New York's Bonanno crime family, and he retired to Arizona in the mid 1970s. And actually, I don't think I said this last time, but he became active in Arizona real estate when he left his life of crime.

Right. I mean, yeah. What are you going to do? Yeah. Get a stand up job, I guess, some homes. Yeah.

Can you fucking imagine if he was your real estate agent?

You're having a showing with, like, a part of the Bona crime family.

I don't think he was like an agent.

He was just involved. Can you imagine? Hey, he's like, you want to buy this home?

You're like, yeah, I do.

Of course I do. I would love to. Just like, you know what? I'll pay more. I'll sign anything right now.

It was supposedly banana who actually helped Finance Gary's first business in the late 70s, leading some associates to link him to the mafia until and actually even after his death, which it's highly refuted.

Yeah.

Dr. Lawrence de Antonio, though, told CBS News in 2017 about Gary. He's a very flamboyant man, and he's also very good looking, but he's rotten to the core.

Oh.

Not a nice thing to say. Damn.

Somebody calling you rotten to the core after your death. Like, holy shit.

After your violent, violent death.

Yeah. Or at any time. It's just like, damn, that's a indictment. Someone rotten to the core.

That's rough. De Antonio claimed to have known Gary since they were children and insisted he was a con man, a thief, and he would rob or steal from anybody, including his own family, his own wife.

Damn. Even as a kid, he was a con man.

Let's just be clear that this is one person's assessment.

Yeah.

Now, whether or not Gary was actually involved or associated with organized crime is somewhat unclear, but it is refuted by anybody close to him who really knew him. But his work in real estate finance and development did eventually lead to serious personal and professional trouble. One way or the other.

Yeah.

By the end of the decade, a real estate bust and a global stock market crash had caused tremendous losses for investors and developers around the world. And for the first time in almost 20 years, Gary found himself in very, very dire financial straits.

Uhoh. Yeah.

The financial collapse had caused the real estate market specifically to stall. So Gary was struggling to sell properties that he'd spent years investing and developing. So he was unable to sell these properties. So he quickly found himself with really serious cash flow shortages that prevented him from paying his creditors. So of course, lawsuits followed. So he's just in a fucking.

I was going to say there's just a bunch of. Just shit. Exactly. That's the pile of shit.

Storms everywhere.

True shitstorm.

And the crash and the subsequent real estate bust caused significant losses for a lot of people around the world. But Gary's business losses were also accompanied by his personal gambling debts, which also had begun to spiral out of control.

Oh, boy.

By 1993, he was being sued by multiple organizations, and the next year, he actually, sadly, had to file for chapter eleven bankruptcy. He cited $40 million in debts.

Whoa. Yeah.

And that's in 93.

I actually didn't. Million dollars. Yeah.

In 93, money. I didn't look up the conversion, but holy shit. Now, the financial problems, of course, I'm sure anybody could assume, led to problems in Gary and Pam's relationship. And in the summer of 1993, they actually ended up separating, with Pam kicking Gary out of their country club home. A messy divorce and a custody battle quickly followed, with Pam taking out three restraining orders against her soon to be ex husband. Among other things, she claimed Gary, quote, carded a loaded gun around on the front seat of his car, mixed booze and antidepressants, threw things, tore her clothes, and was harassing her at all hours of the day.

Oh, man.

In documents filed with the court during the divorce proceedings, she claimed, my household help has even been scared. Like, let's not call people the help.

Yeah. I was going to say eke.

I'm like, I know there's a lot of other things to unpack there, but that's a. Yikes.

Yeah.

Now, it's unclear whether there was any truth to these claims or if Pam was simply trying to bolster her claim for full custody, which that does happen.

Oh, man, I hate when this kid's involved.

It's so messy.

Yeah.

But her behavior during the divorce did little to endear her to the judge or to the court system during a custody hearing in March of 1994, quote, pam became infuriated when she thought Gary was mocking her with laughter and retaliated in the hallway outside of the court, throwing a cup of water at Gary, which the judge later cited her for.

What are you thinking?

It's also like you're a fucking adult.

Yeah.

Really? And it's like you're at a custody hearing for your kids.

Yeah. That's not going to look good. Yeah, that's the thing. Losing your temper and throwing something, you can't do that.

And whether or not you are afraid of him, I don't think that's showing the judge that you really are.

Well, that's the thing. And it's honestly just showing. When you lose your temper, you'll throw things. Right, exactly. Everybody's human, but it's like, that's a place you don't want to do that.

No, exactly. You got to keep it contained in a court case. Now, the case was settled a few months later, and Pam was given full.

Custody of the children.

And at that point, she actually left Arizona and relocated to Aspen, Colorado. So she packed up the kids and left.

Damn.

Now, despite being nearly a thousand miles away, now, the distance did little to quell the vitriol between Gary and Pam. Shortly after moving to Aspen, Pam tried to get yet another restraining order against Gary, claiming, and this is a quote, a friend had told her that Triano announced if it weren't for their kids, she'd be dead.

Whoa.

Which, like, that's a big claim.

Yeah.

Had it been granted, which I don't believe it was, the restraining order would almost certainly have affected what little access Gary even had to his kids at this point.

Oh, damn.

Which already was causing a significant source of distress for Gary because this was already a difficult point in his life, financially and personally, with all the gambling debts and everything. And now his kids are, like, completely ripped away from him.

Damn.

And they move this far away.

Yeah.

But his friend John Condis told a reporter in 2001 he loved and missed his kids, and added that Gary was never without a cell phone to ensure he never missed a call from those kids.

That makes me sad. Yeah.

And no matter what happened between Pam and Gary, obviously you hope that there wasn't actual violence, but it does sound like he was a really devoted father.

Well, and you hope, like, people's, people's relationship with their kids and with their spouse can be a totally different version of themselves. You know what I mean?

Absolutely.

By no means is it okay to treat your spouse like, shit. No, but that doesn't mean he was, you know, it doesn't mean he was a bad dad.

Right?

I mean, again, I don't know these people. So maybe he was, but it doesn't sound like.

But it sounds like he was.

I was going to say it sounds like from what people who knew him said. And that's all we can go of. I was like, under, over, around. That's all we can go off. I was like, I think I malfunctioned for a second. I glitched. That's all we can go off of is people who know him. We don't know him. If somebody know he was a devoted dad, that's all we can really go off of. And that's really is, you know.

Now, after the divorce, Gary moved into a home in Sable Canyon with his business partner, Richard Hickey, and started trying to rebuild his business, which. This shows you how rough it was for him. He literally has to become a roommate.

With his business partner. That sucks.

In the two months since he filed for bankruptcy, he had lost nearly $26 million, and per his creditor repayment schedule, was only projected to make about $230,000 annually for the following years.

Wow.

I say only, obviously, that's a lot of money, but I say only because of the debt that he was up against.

Yeah.

Now, the significant drop in income also meant that he was struggling to pay child support each month, and he actually ended up often turning to his ex wife, Mary, for help in paying his debts.

Wow.

Which fucking Mary? Hell, yeah, sister.

Yeah.

Seriously, like, what a Queen Mary for the win? And yet again, I feel like it probably took a lot for him to turn to his ex wife and say, like, can I have money to help for my kids? I feel like that also shows his devotion to his children, that he wasn't.

Willing to just let it go. Like, skip, he wasn't going to not pay child support, which a lot of people don't pay child support.

Exactly. Now, I will also say, despite his financial difficulties, he still struggled to rein in his spending. He continued traveling first class. He continued gambling and spending thousands on business entertaining.

Oh, man. Which. Not learning our lesson here.

Not learning our lesson. And I will say, obviously, I know gambling is an addiction, so, yeah, it's tough.

So it's not like you can just shut it off.

Exactly. Now, in 1994, his company, New Frontier Investments, started an association with Platinum mortgage and financial Services, a Tucson finance company. It was at platinum that Gary met 31 year old Robin Gardner, and despite a 20 year age difference, the two began a very intense and passionate relationship. Wow. A few months later, Robin was pregnant.

Whoa.

And in 1995, she gave birth to their child.

Damn.

She hoped that the baby would be enough reason for Gary to marry her. But after two failed marriages and not really being in a position to have a huge wedding, he insisted that he was not interested in marriage.

Okay.

Which I can see why he didn't want to. Yeah, I can see why that would be a huge blow to her. After delivering a child 100% like that sucks.

Yeah.

According to a reporter for Tucson Weekly, whose refusal to marry Robin, quote, touched off a series of storms and exchanges of accusations of abuse and violence.

Oh, no.

Just a mess. The verbal arguments often escalated into physical altercations, including one incident in which Gary actually called 911 on Robin after she threw a vase at him in their garage.

Oh, my God. Everybody needs to calm the fuck down.

I know.

Why is everybody so aggressively violent with each other? Super aggressively violent.

While his romantic life seemed destined for failure at this point, by the fall of 1996, Gary's professional life was finally starting to pick up some steam. He was still struggling to keep up with his creditors and for the bankruptcy payment repayment schedule. Excuse me. But he had recently started working on a few new business projects, including a casino in China, which would be the first of its kind. With the bulk of his financial and romantic troubles behind him, Gary started off November 1996 with a renewed sense of optimism. He was really looking forward to just starting fresh and also celebrating his 53rd birthday with friends and family.

He's like, you know what? It's been a shit few years. Let's move on.

It's like, it's been a shit ten years at this point.

Let's go.

Let's go into the mid fifty s. New me now. On the afternoon of November 1, 1996, he played a round of golf with his friends at La Paloma Country Club, while unbeknownst to him, friends and family gathered at his house for a surprise birthday party. The golf game wrapped up at about 530 that night, and Gary made his way out to the parking lot where he parked the borrowed Lincoln town car that he'd been driving. After exchanging some pleasantries with an acquaintance in the lot, he got into the driver's seat of the car and noticed that a blue canvas bag was sitting on the passenger seat. And he kind of looked at it because he hadn't put that there, and it wasn't there when he parked the car.

Get out of that car.

Just a few hours earlier. He reached over to inspect the bag and as soon as he touched it, the bag exploded, engulfing the car in flames and shattering the glass of all the nearby cars and the country club's windows.

Holy shit.

It was a massive explosion. The canvas bag actually contained a large pipe bomb, which, and this is very bleak and very gruesome, it killed Gary instantly, blowing open his skull, quote, splitting it apart by an inch and a half on the right part of his forehead for a length of more than four inches, leaving a bridge of bone.

Oh, my gosh.

The autopsy report indicated that, among other things, shrapnel from the bomb had pierced his brain. The explosion had burned off his hair and ruptured both of his eyeballs.

Holy shit.

During a search of the scene, his left hand was discovered among debris from the blast nearly 200 yards away from the car.

Oh, my. So he didn't even know what happened. He was killed instantly.

Instantly.

Oh, that's awful.

According to his gold Movado watch, which stopped at the time of the explosion, he died at 05:38 p.m. Now, he.

Was on his way to a surprise birthday party.

All of his friends and family are at his house waiting for him. Yeah. The news of Gary's death reached friends and family a few hours later, many of whom, like I just said, just arrived at his surprise birthday party. When Pam got the news, she later told CBS News, I was absolutely hysterical. And I'm thinking, oh, my God, what am I going to do? I immediately thought, who is it? He hadn't paid. Before the bombing, Gary was totally in fear. Going around with a gun. He had life threats. I had life threats. The children had life threats. We're talking about the mexican mafia, people you don't cross. So she's offering up.

I was just going to say, what excuses here. What a response.

And it's also, I love that she has to insert herself into it.

Like, I had life. Well, that's the thing. She's like, by the way, me too.

It's like one thing to bring up your children, of course, and I did well.

And it's also just like, wouldn't your first thought just be like, I don't even know how to comprehend this. Not. Let me give you 40 different ways that this could have happened.

Exactly.

I don't know.

Exactly. And just like saying you're hysterical is interesting. Obviously, no matter what, you did love this person at some point, but you were just involved in the most bitter divorce custody battle ever. You moved super far away from him after filing multiple restrictions orders. And you're hysterical. And you don't know what you're going to do without him.

That's the thing. You don't know what you're going to do without him. I don't know about that. Yeah.

Intense. We'll say.

Yeah.

While a few of Pam's friends believed her stories about Gary's involvement with organized crime, most thought that her comments at the time were strange and very unbelievable. A family friend, Laura Chapman, told CBS when she was asked about Pam's claims that the family had been threatened and felt unsafe, she said, that's absurd. I don't believe that ever happened. I think that's actually just completely made.

Wow. So that's interesting. Yeah.

Despite what most of his friends and family said, the gambling and supposed organized crime link did prove too tempting for investigators.

Yeah, well, you have to look into it. Exactly. Once somebody says something like that, you can't just. Probably not, right.

Unfortunately, I think they spent too much time on it, though I will say they immediately started pursuing Gary's death as a mob hit.

Well, that's the thing. You can't pursue it in one, exclusively, one focus.

You can go down that path while also exploring other.

Have several avenues. Give them all the same attention and the answer will come.

Exactly. Pimba County Sheriff Clarence Dupnik told reporters he had huge gambling debts. He made deals between people who financed and built casinos, and some of those projects were unsuccessful. He was basically indicating that the hit could have been the result of an unpaid mob debt. Okay, now, to those who knew him, the notion that Gary's death was the result of shady or illegal activities was not only impossible, but also extremely offensive. I bet it was like friends and family hearing that their loved one is some guy tied up an organized crime.

Well, that's why he died. If that's not the case, I can understand why that's really offensive. To have people being like, yep, this.

Is like, I can't imagine if that happened to my dad or my loved one. And people were going around saying that, yeah, because you're like, no, this is a tragedy.

Yeah, let's figure out what happened and.

Let'S focus on that. The tragedy of it all. Now, to Gary's friend and business partner, Frank Buskemi, or Busemi, excuse me, the suggestion of mafia involvement seemed politically motivated. He told reporters there was no organized crime aspect in any Arizona casino or any casino we've been involved with. But still, according to him, opponents of expanded gaming use the death as evidence to support their claims that gaming results in a rise of crime or other unsavory activities.

That's interesting.

Which so gross and opportunistic to use. Absolutely not cool.

But you can see where he's coming from. You're like, oh, okay. Yeah.

I mean, gross and opportunistic of people that would use.

Exactly. Yeah. And you can see why he's thinking that.

Exactly. But if not the mob, who would want Gary Triano dead? And why? There were, of course, Gary's, or there was, of course, Gary's considerable unpaid debt. But those were all with legitimate businesses and organizations who actually stood to lose even more if Gary was to die before paying what he owes.

That's kind of what I was thinking, too, was if these are legitimate businesses, it's worse if he's not around to pay the debt.

Right.

You just keep taking money from, you know, like you would get that debt.

Exactly. But despite that, the Pima county sheriff continued to pursue Gary's finances as their primary theory for the murder. The sheriff said there were a number of people who would have reason to be angry with him, some in his personal relationships, and other problems could have cropped up from his financial relationships. Yet throughout the early weeks of the investigation, the sheriff continued to promote the suspected connection to organized crime as the motive. He told reporters a week after Gary's murder. In the past, the mob has used this message. Not only is it a powerful, violent way to kill, but it sends a message, perhaps to others. It's speculation, but it's disconcerting speculation.

I mean, I agree with that. At the end, it is.

But let me just tell you, they are on the wrong track here.

Oh, boy. Yeah.

While investigators dug through Gary's personal life for leads, technicians of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, ATF for short, began analyzing the wreckage for clues that could point them in the direction of the motive or the killer. In a rush to provide some information to the press, a spokesperson told them it was a, quote, pipe bomb filled with black gunpowder that killed Gary Triano. ATF agent Sig Saleja said, we know exactly what most of the bomb pieces are and what portion of the device they belong to. At this point, it's just a matter of putting it all together. Now. While agents may have appeared confident when it came to the information that was being passed on to the reporters, this would prove to be one of a few inaccuracies that were conveyed to the press.

Because they were rushing.

Right?

Stop rushing to get information out and get the good information out. Yeah.

And there's some people talking to the press that are not as close to the case as they seem to be awesome, because, in fact, when technicians had finally finished processing the vehicle a few weeks later, they discovered several pieces of electronic scrap that would eventually confirm the bomb used in Gary's murder was remotely detonated.

Oh, shit.

Isn't that fucking wild?

What? Yeah.

So after weeks of investigation, PMA county investigators were no closer to discovering who killed Gary Triano than they were on day one. Sergeant Michael O'Connor told reporters, it's like a game of clue. This is a classic. We don't have a shortage of potential suspects. Like, how classic is this?

Yeah, I love that. It's like, this is a classic. I'm sorry, what? And he ended a golf game, got into his car, and got blown up by a pipe bomb in his car that was remotely detonated on his way to a fucking surprise birthday party. Yeah. Point me in the direction of where that's a classic. Like, damn, what?

Has your career been serious? And also, can you imagine a detective sitting there or a police officer saying, like, it's like a game of clue.

And it's like, it's a game about.

Your loved one's murder.

I hope you're not looking at it like a game.

Oh, my God. I would be like, yeah, that's not.

A great way to describe that.

It's kind of gross. But the problem was, the more time that passed, actually, the shorter the list of suspects became, and fewer and fewer leads were turning up. After a few months of digging through Gary's personal life and finances, investigators came to the conclusion that his friends and family had actually expressed immediately following his death. There was no obvious connection to the mob.

Shocking that his friends and family knew him better.

Imagine that. And while he may have owed many people money, like we were saying earlier, not a single one of those people or companies would have benefited from his death.

Yeah. In fact, it would be worse.

So although none of Gary's creditors, like we just said, would have benefited from his death, there was one person who did stand to gain financially from this murder. A few months after Gary's death, his ex wife, Pam Phillips, filed a claim on the $2 million life insurance policy that she had taken out in Gary's name during their marriage, with the beneficiaries being listed as the couple's two minor children. Meaning, who's that money going to go to?

Oh, boy.

Given the considerable payout on the policy and the lack of leads or other new evidence, investigators did finally turn their attention to Pam Phillips, who proved to be less than cooperative.

You don't say.

Unlike nearly everybody else interviewed during the investigation, Pam actually refused to submit to a polygraph examination, claiming that her lawyer had advised against it, which I can see that.

Yeah.

Which maybe fair enough, but given the other.

Doesn't look great, though.

If you're being uncooperative in other avenues, then that doesn't look good handling.

It's just going to add on to it. It's a little spice on top. Yeah.

By the spring, new leads and evidence had slowed to a trickle at that point, and the investigation team, who actually had originally been meeting daily, they started scaling back their efforts until the team was fully disbanded in August, when the case had gone completely cold. Pam told reporters, I'm sad that they were unable to find whoever did this. It just doesn't feel like it's over for me and my children and the whole family.

And the whole family. Yeah.

Me and my children and Gary's entire other family.

Yeah.

Everybody who knew multiple other children for sure. Officially, the case would remain open, and investigators from multiple agencies would continue working together to find Gary's killer. But even the sheriff's department really held out little hope of solving this case. A sheriff's department spokesperson told the Arizona Republic just after the team was disbanded. It's looking slimmer every day. We don't have anything fresh coming in. And although this was technically true and there were no official suspects, many within the sheriff's office did continue to consider Pam a loose end in the investigation. They couldn't find any evidence to really tie her to the murder. But at the same time, they also couldn't shake the feeling that she was somehow involved.

Interesting.

The guts were talking to them.

Yeah. The fact that even the investigators guts were like, something's off here. Yeah. They should always trust their gut, the investigators.

Yeah, that's the thing. But not long after moving to Aspen, we know that Pam Phillips befriended her neighbor Ronald Young, and she hired him as a consultant to build a website for a company that she was intending to start. Their relationship soon turned romantic, and they had a kind of on and off again relationship until 1996, when Ronald Young abruptly left the state.

Okay.

In 1996, same year that.

Very interesting that Gary died.

His sudden departure without delivering on the service that he'd been paid for by Pam to complete, prompted her attorney to file a police report claiming that Ronald Young had defrauded Pam Phillips. And initially, Pam seemed interested in cooperating with the police about this case. But a few weeks later, she refused to help in their investigation at all.

I was literally just going to ask you. I was like, you know, it's weird that she would involve herself in that if something is amiss. But the fact that she pulled back and was like, actually, no, I don't want to talk to the police about anything. I don't want to get anybody in trouble. I don't care about anything. I'm just going to sit over here. Yeah, that's interesting.

It sounds like she had mentioned it to her attorney and they thought, maybe we can get this back. And obviously her attorney probably had no idea about anything else at this point. He was like, let's pursue this. And she was like, yeah, let's get my money back. And then was like, you know what? On second thought, I don't need that money.

And she's like, wait a second.

No need that. Take these back seats.

I don't want it.

But despite her change of heart when it came to pressing charges, Pam Phillips actually was not the only one who made a claim of fraud against Mr. Ronald Young. In April 1996, just a few weeks after Pam had filed her report against him, two Aspen businessmen made a similar claim. So a search warrant was issued for Young's home, where investigators found evidence related to the fraud case. And an arrest warrant ended up being issued in August. Now, weeks passed with no sign of Ronald Young until Aspen detective James Crowley got a call from police in Yorbalinda, California, regarding the discovery of an abandoned rental car that had been taken out in Young's name, and it was found at the airport near his parents'house. Because the vehicle had been reported stolen by the rental car company, the police were able to impound the vehicle and they had it towed to the impound lot where it had just been sitting since its discovery. So Detective Crowley actually traveled to California in October to search the contents that had been found in the vehicle, which included a sawed off shotgun.

Oh, shit.

A laptop computer belonging to Ronald Young, a credit report in Pam Phillips'name, a map of Tucson, and a large number of documents from Gary and Pam's divorce.

What the fuck? Yeah.

The evidence collected from the rental vehicle was for sure unfucking usual. But still unable to find Young, the detective returned to Aspen and continued working on more pressing cases. It was a few months later when he heard about the bombing in Arizona that James Crowley thought about Ronald Young again. Yeah, he remembered Gary Triano's name from the documents that had been found in the abandoned rental. And along with the map of Tucson.

He was like, that's kind of very interesting.

So he reported the information to the Pima County Sheriff's Department. But when they were also unable to locate Young. They pursued other suspects.

What the fuck? We're just letting him go? You're just like, oh, we can't find him.

Can't find him. So I guess, where in the world is Ronald Young?

You know what? He didn't do it because we can't find him. And it's like, what? No, you need to go look.

Nearly a decade passed.

Stop.

Nearly a motherfucking decade passed until 2005, when Ronald Young's case appeared on America's most wanted.

Oh, hey. John Walsh.

John Walsh. For fraud charges, during which it was also noted that he was a suspect in the triangle murder case. The episode aired in November of 2005, and within a day. Producer. Producers.

Producer. I liked that.

Producer producers received several calls from residents in Pompano Beach.

I think it's Pompano.

I think it is Pompano Beach, Florida. Saying that a man matching Young's description was living in the area and going by the name Kelly Young.

Oh, damn. You didn't even change your last name?

No, and I actually am pretty sure that Kelly is his middle name.

So you just start going by his middle name. Yikes. Kind of dumb.

On November 21, Broward county sheriff's officers trailed Young to a chiropractic appointment where he was arrested for fraud charges.

You got to get that spine right.

They were like, no, you can't.

They were like, you can't. You're going to be uncomfortable.

They were like, fuck you and your spine.

Fuck you and your alignment.

You're spineless. Now, when they searched his car in the parking lot that day, officers discovered a loaded gun and credit cards in the name Kelly Young. When detectives were able to search his home and his computers, they discovered that he had been receiving regular payments from this lady named Pamela Phillips since 1997.

Shut the fuck up.

Totaling approximately $400,000.

Shut the fuck. She had been paying him this entire time.

Since 1997. It is now 2000. Almost a decade five.

Yeah. Holy shit. Yeah.

According to a forensic accountant who examined the evidence, the payments were consistent with the scheduled payouts that Pam Phillips had received from Gary Triano's life insurance policy. And it appeared to the accountant that, quote, the two had attempted to conceal the transactions.

Wow. Yeah. This could not be more obvious.

No, it truly couldn't. In addition to the fraud charges against him, now in Colorado, Young was charged with being a fugitive in possession of a firearm and served ten months in a Florida jail, and upon his release in 2006, was extradited back to Colorado on the warrant for the fraud charges.

Damn.

So based on the evidence collected from his home and laptop computer, the evidence collected from the abandoned rental vehicle. In 1996, investigators on the Triano case had a strong reason to believe that Young had been paid by Pamela Phillips to murder Gary Triano.

Yeah, I would say that that's a pretty decent conclusion to come to.

One might think so. While Young sat in a Florida jail on the firearms charge before he ended up being extradited, detectives in Arizona continued combing through evidence collected from his home, and they discovered that he, quote, had recorded hours of telephone conversation with Phillips, in which they exhaustively discussed the payments.

Shut up.

According to court documents, throughout these conversations, Young and Philip, quote, referred to their financial dealings explicitly and implicitly as an illegal.

What? The fact that he recorded these.

He recorded all of them. And in most of these conversations, Pam expressed concerns that they might get caught.

Wow.

Among the more incriminating calls was one where Young reminded Pam that he, quote, helped her with something that was beyond what anyone else in the world would probably do, and she was living off the benefits.

Oh, my. That's. Boom.

In another call, where they started arguing about how much money he believed he was owed, he explicitly said, if they were caught, pam would, quote, be in a women's prison for murder.

All right, I think we spell it out, we can slam that book shut. That case is closed. Right, my friends?

So the recorded calls obviously were sufficient enough evidence to get a warrant. And in September of 2006, Tucson cold case detectives searched Pam's Aspen home, seizing a large amount of evidence they believed proved that she had conspired with Ronald Young to kill her ex husband, Gary Triano, in 1996. So now we're talking ten years later. Holy shit. Although they'd long considered Pam a suspect in Gary's murder, investigators now felt confident that after ten years of inactivity, they had found the people responsible for Gary's death. During a press conference after the search of Pam's home, ATF special agent Thomas Mangan told reporters, it's fair to say that both individuals are suspects.

Yes, absolutely.

I think it's more than fair.

Yeah.

The allegations.

The Snow White of Ferris, the Ferris of the ball.

The allegations were immediately, of course, refuted by Pam's attorney, Doug Clark, who told reporters that his client had nothing to do with Gary's death. Sir.

Okay, sir.

He explained, quote, there are at least five different very dangerous people, any of whom could have done it. They all had the means, the motive, and the opportunity to do it. Gary had a shady past and many enemies.

I love that they just keep going back to that I know that the evidence points directly at Pam, and she's essentially admitted it on a phone call, but there are so many other people who could have done it. And it's like, yeah, there's a whole bunch of people in the world that are capable of killing anybody. But we have evidence that says that she did.

We have evidence that says she has the means, motive, and opportunity. And also, are we not going to consider her a fucking enemy of Gary Triano's? That's the other thing to court.

How many times, all these restraining orders and everything, like, obviously they did not have a good relationship. Let's be real.

Let's consider her an enemy for sure. Him an enemy of hers, even. But investigators had long ago ruled out any of Gary's business associates and creditors. So no matter how hard Pam's lawyer tried, the content of the phone calls was simply too suspicious.

You can't get past that. Like, good try. Good try. Throw it at the wall and see if it sticks. But it didn't. Exactly.

So it took a while. But in October of 2008, warrants were issued for the arrest of Pam Phillips and Ronald Young, charging both with first degree murder and conspiracy to commit first degree murder. Young was arrested in California and extradited back to Arizona, but Pam Phillips was nowhere to be found.

Where the fuck did you go, Pam?

So much fucking time has passed. You might as well have given her a fucking ticket. Despite having been monitored by Colorado investigators. Investigators.

What was the producer. Producer producers and investigators. Investigators.

So, despite having been monitored by the investigators, Pam fled the US for London in September of 2008. She fled the fucking country while she was being monitored. I'm like, did everybody help out a meal like the fuck? Her lawyer claimed that she, quote, had gone to live near her daughter in Switzerland.

Bitch.

I wonder why?

Also good for your daughter going to Switzerland. I know. Yeah, get out of here.

A little more than a year would pass before Pam was finally arrested in Vienna, Austria, in December of 2009 and eventually extradited back to the US.

Wow.

Ronald Young went on trial in Pima county in late February 2010. Now where Pima County District Attorney William McCollum argued that he had engaged in a romantic relationship with Pam Phillips in 1996, and he was ultimately convinced to kill Gary Triano in exchange for $400,000, which was paid out from Gary's life insurance policy.

Wow. He's just like, here it is. He's like, boom.

And as evidence of conspiracy, McCollum provided receipts showing that the payments had actually began several months before the murder even occurred.

Wow.

Which laid the ground for the conspiracy charge. The ongoing payments and hours of recorded phone calls, they argued, were also evidence of his guilt.

Damn.

Now, arguing on Young's behalf, defense attorney Walter Palzer claims that the district attorney was only guessing about what had happened.

And that's a quote.

He said the phone calls were really too vague to prove anything.

Oh, yeah.

He said, in truth, young had learned the details of Gary's death from Pam, and desperate for money, he used that information to extort her for years, which I would like to sit here and tell you is also a crime.

You're not making your client look good. He's like, it's no big deal.

He just tried to extort. It's just extortion.

That's all.

He's like, we can talk about that later.

They have a name for that. If they have a name for it, it's probably not good, dude.

He said, if the jury wants to hypothesize, they could just as easily hypothesize that. Sometime around November 1, 1996, Phillips told her former lover she had arranged for Triano's death, and he decided to blackmail her.

Wow.

And as evidence of this, he pointed to the recordings in which Young does make vague threats of Phillips going to jail for what she did, but never implicates himself in the crime, probably because he knows he's the fucking person recording them.

Yeah, of course. Have you ever watched any crime series ever? Of course they're not going to talk about themselves. Right?

They're going to try to get you.

To say it, not them. Exactly. Yeah.

But the defense attorney, during his closing arguments, continued. If they think the blackmailing scheme and the murder scheme are equally plausible, they have to acquit Young. They don't.

They don't.

In his closing arguments, district Attorney William McCollum refuted the defense's argument, reminding the jury that, quote, the blackmail scenario doesn't make sense since Phillips began paying young five months before the slaying.

Yeah, so there's that.

You want to explain that?

Yeah.

And he also went on to point to the large amount of evidence collected in Ronald Young's home that tied him to the murder, saying he had, quote, never seen a case in which so much evidence was created by the defendant. He said, everything you've seen or heard reeks of two people who are so cold, so greedy, nothing else matters.

Damn.

The jury deliberated for 12 hours across two days, and on April 1, they returned their verdict, finding Ronald Young guilty of first degree murder and conspiracy to commit first degree murder. On May 3, 2010, Pima County Superior Court Judge Christopher Browning did sentence Young to life in prison without the possibility of parole. Whoa. Saying he, quote, could not comprehend how somebody could plot and carry out the murder of a virtual stranger for money.

Damn.

And in such a fucking horrific way.

Horrific way.

And clearly he was nearby and had pressed the button. That's the thing. Like stalking Triano.

Oh, my God. And so to be able to watch somebody walk.

So chilling. Now, if Ronald Young's trial was relatively simple and straightforward, Pamela Phillips case was, again, I say the exact opposite.

Oh, boy.

After being arrested in Vienna in December of 2009, it took eight more months before Pam was back in the US. And in July of 2010, she was finally arraigned on charges of first degree murder and conspiracy to commit first degree murder. While she was awaiting trial, though, her defense team requested that doctors perform a mental health evaluation, claiming that she was incompetent to stand trial. According to these attorneys. Her attorneys, Pam had been experiencing extreme paranoia since 2003. I fucking wonder why.

Yeah.

End quote. She has felt as though she is being watched and listened to and believes that she has had tracking devices placed in her neck.

Wow.

In March of 2011, Dr. Brad Johnson testified at a pretrial hearing, telling the district attorney he had examined Pamela Phillips and in his opinion, she was malingering or faking symptoms of mental illness. According to him, she was, quote, very dramatic, inconsistent, vague, and focused when she described her symptoms. And people with actual mental illnesses usually are not.

Yeah, there you go.

Based on his opinion, the judge refused to allow any additional mental health examinations. But in September of 2011, Pima County Judge Richard Fields reversed his early ruling prohibiting additional mental health exams. And in December of that year, Pam was examined a second time by a new mental health practitioner who determined she was indeed incompetent to stand trial, but, quote, could be restored to competency.

Okay, like, why? How so?

Couldn't tell you. But finally, in October of 2012, Pam was determined competent to stand trial. But it would be another 16 months before she would finally go to trial.

I hate how long these things drag.

Out, especially for the families.

It's like, let them get through it.

Gary's family having to wait this long for justice anyways, and then it just.

Gets dragged and dragged, and it's exactly what you said. Like having over a decade happen before you even got to this point.

Right? And then this all gets drudged back up again, which you're happy, I'm sure, to a degree about.

You want it wrapped up. Exactly.

But like I said, Pamela finally did go on trial for the murder of Gary Triano. And this was in mid February of 2014, where Pima county prosecutors told the jury that she had conspired with Ronald Young to kill her husband. And the motive was simply greedy. So cold, and it's so gross. It's so gross.

Like, oof.

Prosecutor Nicole Green said in her opening statements moments prior to that bombing, the only person who stood to get any benefit from Gary Triano's death was Pamela Phillips.

Yeah.

The prosecution argued that Pam had grown accustomed to this lavish lifestyle that she'd had when she was married to Triano. And although she no longer wanted to be married to him, she wasn't ready to give up that lifestyle. In support of their case, they offered the same evidence that had been used to convict Ronald Young. The recordings and documents they believed showed that she was an active participant in the murder. In defense of his client, Paul Ekstrom flatly rejected the prosecution's argument and instead suggested that although she had no love for her ex husband, Pam was in fact, the victim. According to Pam's defense, who were clearly taking a page from Ronald Young's defense extreme claimed that Ronald had learned the details of Gary's death for years and had used that information to extort Pam.

Wow, we're really going for this.

They're saying the same thing.

Okay.

He claimed, quote, what he had on Pam was the fact that she had a reputation in Aspen to protect. It was a small town. She was a real estate agent. She needed her reputation. They argued, pam's lawyers, that if word got out about her being a suspect in Gary's death, it could have ruined her professional career and done considerable damage to her reputation. And Young was using that to his advantage. As far as who did commit the murder, extrem claimed Gary had been killed by Neil McNeese, an Arizona millionaire to whom Gary owed money.

Wow. We're just, like, pulling that guy out of nowhere.

It's also like, is that not hearsay? Like, you just pull that out of.

Seriously, you can't just be, um. That guy did it. Yeah, that guy did it.

The law confuses me, because I think I say this at least once. Every other case, some things that are hearsay, you're like, what?

I know.

And then other things that don't get labeled as that. To me, that feels hearsay right now. On April 3, 2014, the jury retired for deliberations, and nearly a week later, took them a little longer than the previous jury, but they returned their verdict, finding Pam guilty.

Oh, okay. I was like, please don't I know.

I was trying to throw you off low. They found her guilty of first degree murder and conspiracy to commit first degree murder. And on May 22, nearly four years after her arrest and 18 years since Gary's murder, the judge, Richard Field, sentenced Pamela Phillips to life in prison without the possibility for parole.

Damn.

When the verdict was read in the courtroom, she turned to the gallery and shouted, I'm innocent. I'm innocent. This is a nightmare.

I don't know, man. I don't understand those phone calls. If you are innocent, I don't either. And I don't understand the payments. I don't understand any of it. No. And again, the motive. You were the only one who stood to gain from it.

Everyone else only lost out.

Yeah.

Pam Phillips appealed the verdict to the Arizona Court of Appeals in 2018, claiming, among other things, that she had been improperly denied contact with her attorney, denied her right to a properly presented defense, and denied her right to due process, all of which were incorrect. The Arizona Court of Appeals disagreed with all of these claims and upheld the verdict. She currently is serving her sentence at the Arizona Department of Corrections in Perryville, Arizona. And that is that.

Damn.

Such a sad case.

It is. And I was looking up, just trying to see if the kids, I know they're adults now, how they ended up. They seem like they are, from what I've read. It says that they remember their dad as, like, a larger than life personality who adored his children, was generous with his time and money. One of them. I don't want to say their names, just in case they don't want to. Yeah, I don't blame you. But they remembered he would literally play jokes on people in restaurants where he would send the bill, his bill to someone else, and then watch their reaction, but then pay their bill and his bill, just like, as a practical joke.

That's the thing. Everything I read about him just sounded like, one, he was a devoted father, and two, a pretty nice guy.

Well, and even Robin Gardner testified and said that he was an active participant in their daughter's life.

And she was sure he would have.

Been just as attentive to her if he had been given the chance to grow up with her. See, because I think she was only, like, seven months old.

It was like, right before he was killed.

Yeah, I think they were like, this is like, an older article about it, but I think they were having trouble with the money that was supposed to be awarded to them. They were supposed to get money, and it wasn't going to come because it's from Pamela yeah, of course.

That makes, like, it's from what you.

Can see, everybody who, I mean, I trust his kids to tell me if he was a good dad. That's the end all, be all on that one.

And he had two older kids because, remember, he had two kids from his first marriage, so they knew him for a long, long time.

Exactly. So it seems like. Yeah.

And for Robin to say that, like, when they did have some difficulties in their relationship.

Yeah. To say, like, he was very attentive and very a part of our daughter's life. Our daughter's life. And I know if he was around and was given the chance, he would be as attentive to her as he is with his older kids.

And all his friends said no matter what kind of streets he was in, he always had a cell phone to call these kids. It tore him apart that they were like Pam and his children. She took them so far away. I do think that justice was served here, but unfortunately, it was so late.

It was such delayed justice.

And it doesn't do anything for both.

Kids to have their dad doesn't bring him back. So it's like, what a sad, sad story.

Seriously crazy.

Truly.

But with that, we hope you keep listening and we hope you keep it weird, but not so weird that you extort anybody for money. And not so weird that you don't just get divorced like a normal person and move on with your life. You don't need to do any of that.

Yeah, you don't need to do that. Stop that.

Bye bye. Follow morbid on the Wondery app, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to episodes early and ad free by joining Wondry plus and the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey@wondry.com. Slash survey.