Wondery subscribers can listen to morbid early and ad free. Join wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. You're listening to a Morbid network podcast.

I'm Dan Tabirsky. In 2011, something strange began to happen at a high school in upstate New York. A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms, and spreading fast. What's the answer? And what do you do if they tell you it's all in your head? Hysterical. A new podcast from Wondery and Pineapple Street Studios binge all episodes of hysterical earth and ad free on Wondery.

Hey, weirdos. I'm Ash.

And I'm Elena.

And this is morbid. This is morbid. This morbid. And I have a tummy ache.

Tummy troubles abound over there.

Elena made me get Taco Bell today, and that was a bad idea. And in the last episode, if you heard that, I had a Baja blast. Don't worry. I don't just have Taco Bell every day. This is the same day.

Bulk recording, bulk recording.

Bulk recording. Party, party, party.

So she was very excited about it in the first episode.

You'll hear a marked difference. Yeah, the energy has.

Has dwindled.

Ib's girlies out there, everybody.

I feel for you.

Do you guys eat taco Bell? Do you do that to yourselves?

I feel like people do.

I can't go to Taco Bell.

I have Ib's, I have rbs. I do not. And I'm sorry that you go through this.

It is remarkable that you don't have stomach issues.

I know. I'm my dad. I know I got my dad's stomach.

I don't know.

That boy is, like, almost 80 years old, and he can still eat, like, buffalo chicken in the middle of the night if he wanted to.

He does do that. I don't know if my dad has a bad stomach or not. And I don't know about my mom either, so.

She has a bad stomach.

Yeah. Props.

Got it from mom. Ma'am.

I got it from ma. She has a bad stomach. Anyway, bad stomach. Enough about my digestive issues. Do you know I have a very crazy tale today? A very sad tale. Of course, because you're listening to morbidity. This is going to be about the murder of one Albert Snyder.

Oh, Albert is such a. Albert. Nope, it's not Albert Fish. I was gonna say Albert. There's never been an unkind Albert.

So that I was wrong. Um, rumor has it he, like, wasn't the kindest.

Yeah, now that I'm thinking about it, I don't know. A kind Albert.

I don't know, Ann.

Albert just flipped that switch a little bit.

Yeah. Well, here's the thing, though. Like, he. He's said to have not been the kindest, but some people who didn't do the kindest thing to him.

So take it with a giant grain of salt. Yeah, exactly.

Take it with, like, half a grain of salt.

Yeah.

So. But if we're gonna talk about Albert Snyder, first we have to talk about Mamie Ruth Brown, who was later married to Albert Snyder. So let's do that.

Let's do it.

Mamie Ruth Brown was born in New York, New York, to Harry and Josephine Brown on March 27, 1895.

City's so nice, they named it twice.

Harry had moved to New York, New York from Norway. He loves places that start with n. Look it.

I love a Norwegian.

Yeah. This was decades earlier that he moved there, and when he did, he met Josephine, who had also come to the US, but she came from a coastal village in Sweden.

I'm obsessed with all of that, aren't you? Because I also love swedish people and.

I want to go to a coastal village in Sweden.

Me too.

I think I'd be so much better off.

I think we all would.

I probably wouldn't even have IB's, actually.

Probably. I don't think they have it there. Know what it is?

That's their claim to fame. We're Sweden. We don't have Ib's.

Swedish people. Do you have stomach problems? I feel like you don't.

Probably not. I think that's highly american, because I.

Feel like you're lovely and, like, you know, it's nice there.

Less processed.

Less processed. I. Let us know.

Do you have ib's set us up?

I would like to know.

Me, too. Well. Initially, the family, which included Ruth's older brother Andrew, lived in a small apartment on Manhattan's west side on Morningside Avenue.

Oh.

Within a few years, though, they moved north to a less developed part of the city, where they shared a rented house with Harry's nephew and brother in law. Now, even though they had worked to earn enough financial stability to move out of the slums of Morningside Avenue, the Browns had what author Landis McClellan describes as a desperately hard life.

Yeah, that sounds great.

No, Harry Brown. No, no. Harry Brown did have reliable employment as a carpenter and a contractor, but he also had a lot of health issues, and most of the time, he wasn't able to work at all because of untreated epilepsy.

Ooh.

Yeah. So the family had to rely on borders to help cover the rent. And on the occasions when Harry was unable to work, Josephine would have to find temporary work as a sick room attendant or practical nurse, kind of just leaving the children to fend for themselves at home. Hmm. Yeah. Aside from their financial constraints, Harry and Josephine always managed to provide the essentials for their kids. They never went without food, clothing or shelter. The basics.

That's good.

But in comparison to a lot of other families living in poverty in New York at the time, the Browns could have considered themselves lucky. Ruth just never saw it that way. Years later, when she was asked about her childhood, she recalled that it was, quote, dominated by a sense of deprivation and want.

That's sad.

I know. Like, she had food, she had shelter, but she and her brother never got the luxuries of new toys and fancy clothes like a lot of other kids in their neighborhood did, because, remember, they were able to work and, like, move to a nicer neighborhood, but they couldn't really keep up with the Joneses.

Yeah.

And that's sad also. A little after her 6th birthday, Ruth was hospitalized and had to have intestinal surgery, which was the first of a ton of health problems that she would go through while she was still pretty young.

Oh, man.

Just a few years later, at nine years old, she suffered severe sunstroke, and it actually required medical attention. And after that, she started to experience fainting spells, which she actually blamed on her dad's epilepsy. But there's no evidence to support that there was a link between the two. She just kind of surmised that maybe.

There was link in there.

Yeah. But the most difficult of these problems by far was an ongoing problem with her appendix. That all started with a botched appendectomy when she was twelve. Oh, yeah. The thought of a botched one of those.

No.

No, thanks.

Nope.

The thought of that in and of itself, an appendectomy like that's.

It's terrifying.

Yeah, but a botched one.

Ooh. No.

That caused years and years of physical and emotional pain. And her health problems left her unable to play with the other children in the neighborhood. So that caused her to feel isolated.

Oh, that's sad.

It's really sad. Now, when she was finished with the 8th grade, Ruth decided to quit school and actually take a job with the New York telephone company. It's kind of unclear why she left school, but Arthur McClellan, who wrote the double indemnity murders, notes that around the same time, Ruth had become romantically involved with one of her teachers and, quote unquote, the two carried on a romance during vacation months.

Oh.

Now, when the school year resumed in the fall, Ruth became intensely jealous of any other girl who showed any kind of interest in this teacher. And on a few occasions, that jealousy actually escalated to violence. Oh, no, McCluller wrote. This would explain the sudden decision to leave school. Perhaps she was caught fooling around with a teacher and he was fired and she was expelled. Or maybe she quit in disgrace.

Oh, man.

Yeah. Yikes.

Very scandalous.

As Jess.

I was trying to think of the word.

Yeah. Whatever her reasons for leaving, though, Ruth soon found that full time work did suit her. In a really short time, she was making decent money. She was able to help support her family, and she also still had money left over for herself. And it was actually through her job at the phone company that she ended up meeting Albert Snyder. They met when she accidentally dialed the wrong number in 1950.

Oh, my goodness.

It's actually unknown who she was trying to reach, but she accidentally dialed Snyder's number, who was the editor of Motorboating magazine. You have to laugh at that. That's there for you to laugh. It's called comedic relief. Thank you, motorboating magazine. But the confusion turned out to be lucky, because by the end of that day, Ruth had quit her job at the phone company and accepted Snyder's job offer as the magazine's newest proofreader and copyist. Oh, yeah.

Look at that.

Let's talk about Albert.

Let's talk about it.

Albert Snyder was born October 11, 1882, in Kings County, New York, to Charles and Mary Snyder. They were german immigrants who had moved to Brooklyn several years earlier. Charles owned and operated a small bakery and cafe in Williamsburg, but the family lived in an apartment above the store.

Which, like, that's adorable.

That must have also just smelled good at all times.

Oh, yeah.

By all accounts, Albert's early life was fairly unremarkable. But from a very early age, he did show a talent and passion for art and creativity that he'd carry into adulthood. And actually, it would lead him to a career in publishing. When he was finished with high school, he attended the Pratt Institute to study art. And when he completed his degree, he had really no difficulty finding work as a commercial artist.

Look at Albert.

Work was his main focus, but he also managed to make time for his other passions, outdoor sports and boating.

Motor boating, maybe both.

Perhaps it would take a few more years of professional ladder climbing, but eventually he would manage to combine his passion for art with his passion for outdoors and his passion for motorboating and become the editor of Motor Boating magazine.

Hey.

Oh, I said, I will never be over this.

No, honestly, you shouldn't.

When Albert was in his early twenties, his father decided to sell the bakery and retiree. He had managed to build a successful business over the years, and when he sold the bakery, he was able to move the entire family from the apartment in Williamsburg to a three story home in the Bedford. I think it's Stuyvesant neighborhood. It was there that Albert met his first serious girlfriend, Jessie. I think it's Guichard. Her family lived just a few houses down, so they were cute little neighbors.

That's that ripple.

They dated very, very seriously for a long time. And Albert was devastated when, in the fall of 1912, Jesse died from pneumonia at age 30.

Aw.

McClellar wrote, snyder never really got over Jesse. He treasured his scrapbooks, filled with meticulously dated and captioned photographs of her. And every day until his death, he wore a keepsake pin inscribed JG.

Oh, that's heartbreaking.

Yeah, they were.

That was like real love.

They were soul mates.

Yeah.

He may never have gotten over Jesse, but for Albert, he did want to have his life continue to move on. He knew that he couldn't just, like, sat around, sat all day. So a year after her death in early 1913, Albert started working at motorboating magazine. I can't ever say it without laughing.

Never will.

I'm sorry. And a year later, he received that mistaken call from that young woman, Ruth, at the phone company. So when I first told you about this, I was like, it was really cute. She down the wrong number, and, yeah, we loved it. Then she ended up with a job. At first, Albert was actually annoyed by her mistake, and he hung up on her before she even had time to finish apologizing. And he usually would have left it at that, but for some reason, he ended up feeling guilty and just called her back to apologize for how rude he had been.

Huh.

Now, Ruth accepted the apology, and after a few minutes of casual small talk, he asked her if she wanted to come down to the publishing company to discuss a job opening.

Hmm. Look at that.

It's kind of like kismet.

I was gonna say, what a chance. Opportunity.

Definitely. Ruth accepted the invitation, and by the end of the day, she was the newest employee in the Hearst company secretarial pool.

Look at her.

I know. Just making her way up. Well, Albert may have still been heartbroken over the loss of Jesse, but that did not stop him from pursuing Ruth. Within days of starting the new job, he started making some advances, implying that, you know, maybe he was romantically interested.

Hey, yo.

On her first day of work, he snuck up behind her at her desk and started playing with her hair and then asked her to join him for dinner that night. It was a very different time.

It was the most different of times because that would not be met with the same kind of reaction.

Now, today you get Helga Pataky.

Don't come play with my hair.

Don't touch me. No, but, you know, different time.

Such a different time.

Later that day, Ruth asked one of her coworkers whether she should go to dinner with him or nothing. And apparently the co worker replied, don't go stepping out with him, Brownie. You won't come back the same way you went out.

Whoa.

Which I just love the idea of, like, her co worker being like, I have all the hot tea, and, baby, you don't want to do that.

And also, it's like, I don't know, you made it sound kind of awesome.

You won't come back the same way you went out. Could be, like, so fucking great or could be so fucking bad.

And that's the thing.

And I'm like, that's not a gamble I'd take.

That's a. That's a dice roll right there.

It is.

But it's still a roll of the dice.

Yeah. You know, you never know.

They made it sound all right.

I don't know. It's kind of unclear what she was implying because, like we just said, it could have been one of two very extreme things. But it was enough to make Ruth decline the invitation. She wasn't ready to roll the die that night.

No, she wasn't ready.

No. Now, in the weeks that followed, Albert just kept on asking Ruth to go to lunch, go to dinner, any occasion he could find as an excuse for a date. And she kept refusing his invitations, remembering what her co worker had said. But eventually, she relented and was like, you know what? I'll go to lunch with you. According to Ruth, Alberts advances were always made, quote, in the spirit of good fun. And she actually never felt threatened. She didn't feel like it was inappropriate at all.

Well, that's good.

Maybe that's why after repeatedly refusing him for weeks, she eventually caved and would occasionally join him for lunch or dinner. So they were kind of like casually dating.

Yeah.

A few months after starting the job at motorboating magazine, always Ruth was offered and accepted a better paying job with a printing company no longer working at the publisher, she expected not to see Albert Snyder. But just a few days after starting her job, he showed up at the office and was like, hey, you want to go to lunch?

Yeah.

Ruth didn't really have much interest in actually seriously dating Albert before, but the more he pursued her, the more viable of an option he became.

A.

After all, he had a stable job, he was cultured, he had an interest in the arts, and most importantly, he lavished her with gifts and nights out constantly.

So there you go.

Yeah. So they started dating, and he made the trip regularly downtown to take her to lunch, dinner, or to see a show. By Christmas 1914, he actually proposed to Ruth. But given the 13 year age difference between them, she was like, eh, I don't think so.

No, thanks.

But at her 20th birthday party a few months later, Albert showed up with flowers, a box of chocolates, and an expensive engagement ring.

Whoa.

And the grand gesture was enough to persuade Ruth to, this time, accept his proposal.

Look at that. That felt like it escalated quickly.

Wait, this is weird. The couple married July 24, 1915.

Whoa. What the fuck is that about?

Cuz, remember at the top of the weird, I said, we're recording on the same day. You remember the Taco Bell day? And in your case, the murderers were.

Born on July 24.

And in this case, they got married on July 24, which, if you don't remember, was yesterday.

What does that mean? That's too weird. That is weird. Of all the days in the year, there's 365 of them.

There are?

Yeah, that's weird. We didn't do that.

For that to happen once is weird. For that to happen twice is.

It's like the owl thing. I see one owl, I'm like, that's fun. I see two, I'm like, I'm a little weirded out. Exactly what's going on.

Yeah. Who, who, bitch?

Who, who? And even that's, like, just mystical as fuck.

Yeah. Yeah. I don't love it.

I don't know about that.

That's the weird coincidence. But they did get married yesterday, but in 1915.

Yeah.

In a small ceremony, which was at the Browns family apartment, and a bunch of their friends. Friends and family attended. And then later, they moved to a rented house in Bay Ridge, Brooklyn. If Ruth thought that married life was gonna be a really, you know, nice continuation of their relationship up to that point, she was pretty quickly disenchanted. Instead of the long lunches, the dinners, the nice gifts, all that kind of thing that had characterized most of their time dating, Albert immediately went back to the routine of his bachelor days. He used most of his time outside the office to pursue his own hobbies and put her around the house. Like, he just wasn't. He wasn't putting as much effort in now that he had gotten her.

Yeah. You know, that makes sense.

And on the weekends, he could typically be found on his boat, which was a 30 foot cabin cruiser that he named the Jessie G. Oh. In a tribute, obviously, to his late girlfriend.

Okay, I know this case and that. I forgot about that part. And I'm like, oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah. Oh. After they got married, Ruth tried to convince him to change the name to Ruth, but he wouldn't do it. And I kind of see both sides. I can, too, because it's like, okay, it wasn't like you got married. And then he bought a boat and named it after his ex girlfriend. He already had the boat. Yeah, but then at the same time, like, I don't know that I would want to be on my husband's boat named after another girl, no matter, like, when it was named.

Yeah.

But then the fact that she died, like. Like, that's tough.

Yeah, that's really tough. I can see both sides. I can understand him not wanting to change it.

Yeah.

And I can understand her wanting him to change it.

I think you just kind of have to agree to disagree there. Yeah, but.

But then, like, do you get on the boat? I feel like you need to name.

It something totally different or just get another boat.

Just by another boat.

You're rich.

Yeah.

I don't know.

Get another boat.

You work at Motor Boating magazine. You do.

So I feel like you can have.

You must have a boating connection. Yeah, get another one. Call your boat guy. Yeah.

You know?

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That's 20% off your first order when you shop better hydration today using promo code morbid@liquidiv.com. this show is sponsored by Better help. When your schedule is packed with kids, activities, big work, projects, and more, it's easy to let your priorities slip. Even when we know what makes us happy, it is hard to make time for it. But when you feel like you have no time for yourself, non negotiables like therapy are more important than ever. Personally, I've benefited from therapy. I always used to tell myself, oh, I don't have any time. I'm too busy. You got to make the time for yourself. You're going to feel so much better, and it's just 1 hour dedicated to you. I think everybody should go to therapy at least once in their lives. I think most people should go multiple times in their lives because therapy is fantastic and it just offers you a set of skills, a set of coping mechanisms. You find out a little bit about yourself and how you approach things. If you're thinking of starting therapy, give betterhelp a try. It's entirely online, designed to be convenient, flexible, and suited to your schedule.

And all you have to do to get started is fill out a brief questionnaire. You'll get matched with a licensed therapist, and you can switch therapists anytime for no additional charge. Never skip therapy day with betterhelp. Visit betterhelp.com morbidtoday to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp help.com morbid. Well, anyway, Albert's apparent lack of interest in spending time with his wife was a source of many, many arguments.

That'll be a problem, too.

Yeah, but the biggest sign of incompatibility was their respective feelings about children. Since she was little, Ruth had always dreamed of getting married and having kids. Albert, on the other hand, had absolutely no interest in having children. And he was relieved when he found out that Ruth's childhood surgeries made the potential for children pretty unlikely. But two years into their marriage, and without telling him, Ruth had a minor medical procedure that greatly increased her chances of getting pregnant. And in the winter of 1917, she did become pregnant.

I wonder what that was.

Yeah, I don't know. Let's like, have no idea. But I was wondering the same thing. Like what? You could have increased your chances.

Yeah. Interesting.

I can't think of anything. Can you?

Yeah. I can't.

Yeah. I don't want to speculate too much.

Yeah.

But according to McClure, Snyder was enraged at the news of the pregnancy, but comforted himself with the thought that perhaps he would have a son to keep him company.

Or maybe a daughter.

He didn't.

No.

No. They had a daughter named Lorraine. She was born in November of that year, and Albert was described as inconsolable about having a daughter.

Get the fuck over it is what I have to say.

Exactly.

Yeah.

The arrival of the baby didn't make Ruth and Albert's relationship any better, obviously.

Yeah.

Lorraine was described as a difficult child, which is so stupid.

She was a baby.

It's like. Yeah, she had a baby.

Yeah. She had needs.

She tended to become sick pretty easily, so she required additional attention. And not long after.

How dare her?

I know. Ew.

Yeah.

Oh, my God. Lorraine.

That baby.

Cool it. But not long after Lorraine's birth, the family moved from Bay Ridge and bought a house next door to Ruth's parents so that she could actually have some extra help because, you know, Lorraine was sickly, and obviously her family knew what that was like. Unfortunately, for unknown reasons, within a year, they had developed a really bad relationship with their neighbors, and Albert uprooted the family and moved them to queens, where they would remain for the rest of their marriage. But you wonder what happened there. It got so bad and contentious with their neighbors, they didn't move.

Like, damn, that's serious beef with your neighbors.

That's a big old beef.

Yeah.

It's like the.

What's it, the McCoys and the Hatfields and McCoys.

Yeah. There you go.

There you go. Get out of town now.

Later, Ruth would repeatedly claim that Albert was, quote unquote, cruel to his daughter and abusive towards both of them. It's unclear if this is true or not. And you, like I said, have to remake her word with a grain of source. Remember? With a grain of.

A grain of source.

For the grain of sand. Remember the source. But there's no denying that the two of them were unhappy in their marriage. By all accounts, Albert was obsessive about order and cleanliness, and he would lash out at Ruth and Lorraine whenever things didn't meet his standards. And while they didn't have any financial trouble and their needs were always methadone, he was constantly complaining to Ruth about expenses. And as the marriage continued to deteriorate, Ruth and Albert's intimate life obviously declined rapidly. At first, Albert tried to kind of coerce Ruth and Tina getting together, getting busy, getting busy. When that stopped working, he would, quote unquote, force himself on her.

Oh.

Eventually things got to the point, though, where he stopped bothering her altogether.

Oh, my. This is awful.

The whole thing is a wreck.

Yeah.

As the marriage continued to crumble, Albert started drinking heavily, and Ruth started looking for attention elsewhere. According to McKellar, Ruth, quote, wasn't interested in women. She'd hardly ever speak to the woman, to a woman on the street. But every man in the neighborhood was on speaking terms with her. She made it a point to nod to every strange man she saw on the street and would soon establish a casual relationship with him.

Wow.

And he doesn't mean like strange men. He means like strangers.

Yeah, just like men she didn't know.

Yeah. One man who lived in the neighborhood at the time and was a little bit younger, recall to Ruth, most of the folks thought she was pretty fast, but us kids liked her. She was a great cut up.

I mean, damn, what a descriptor.

Well, the adults fucking hated her. But we shook her.

She was pretty fast.

She's fun.

We thought she was great. She was a cut up, though.

I love cut up.

Cut up. I know. That's so. Twenties.

It is now. Ruth did her best to keep up appearances for the friends and for the neighbors. But by 1925, the Snyder's marriage had completely disappeared. Disintegrated arguments were escalating into screaming matches. Then her and Albert would go days without speaking to each other. His drinking. Wow.

He is drinking.

I just became Michaela. His drinking. His drinking had worsened considerably, and his temper was explosive. On one occasion when a neighborhood boy accidentally sent a baseball through the Snyder's window, Albert was said to have chased the boy down the street, quote, into the boy's own living room, where he pummeled him within an inch of his life.

I'm sorry, what?

So they were playing neighborhood baseball. You're like, let me explain. This kid accidentally, like, threw the baseball through the. Through the window. I'm sure it happened a lot in the twenties and especially in New York. And Albert was very angry and allegedly found that boy and allegedly beat him almost to death. That's wild. That's one way to describe it.

Feral behavior.

It is if true. If true.

Because obviously he's not around to dispel any of this.

Exactly.

And he wasn't at the time either.

Exactly. But that was. That wasn't even just ruth saying that. That was like somebody's recollection.

Yeah, that's somebody's recollection. It's like, damn, Albert.

Yeah.

Holy shit.

And people did also remember that his tendency to blow up at neighbors was bad, but it was no worse than the emotional abuse and manipulation that was directed at Lorraine.

No.

Once. And this is a trigger warning for pretty much like, child abuse. Once, when she refused to eat her morning oatmeal, Albert got so angry that he locked himself in his bedroom and told her he was going to shoot himself with a pistol because she wouldn't eat her oatmeal for breakfast.

Get it together. Yeah, get it together.

I think they had just argued themselves into such a negative space where he was drinking and had become. I think he had become somebody entirely different because he was unhappy and trying to make that better with alcohol, and Ruth was unhappy and trying to make that better with, like, stepping out the side.

Woof.

It was just bad.

Oh, that's really bad.

Now, I want to say luckily, but it doesn't work out that way. Luckily. Ruth had reached her breaking point by the early 1920s, and she had started considering leaving Albert.

Yeah.

Which you wish that she had just done that. But the problem was that if she was going to leave, she was only going to do so if she was going to be awarded a large alimony and child support payment and she wanted full custody of Lorraine. Given how Albert felt about having a daughter, it seemed pretty reasonable that he would object to giving full custody, which is awful. But the money part, the alimony and the child support payments were another matter entirely. In order to get everything she wanted out of the divorce, Ruth was going to have to prove to a court that Albert had either been unfaithful or that there was a pattern of cruel treatment. Now, in the later years of their marriage, others had witnessed the unkind ways that Albert treated his family. But in the 1920s, it wasn't anything that would constitute cruelty.

I was gonna say it was such a different barometer.

What the fuck would. Back then, not a lot like, people remember that. That he. His child wouldn't eat her oatmeal and he locked himself in a room and told her he was gonna shoot himself. And that doesn't constitute cruelty. Yeah, like, damn.

Yeah, it was the wild west back then.

I guess so. So she couldn't prove that. And as for his infidelity, Ruth did suspect that he was carrying on an affair with a woman from his office, but she didn't have any evidence and she wasn't gonna be able to prove it. Mmdh so under the circumstances, it seemed like a divorce under desirable conditions was out of the question. And if Ruth wanted out of her marriage with full benefits, she was gonna have to find another way. Now, it may have been true that she didn't have very many female friends, but her life wasn't completely void of women. Occasionally, she would have lunch with her hairdresser and friend Kitty Kaufman. It was in June of 1925 that Kitty and Ruth were sitting together having lunch when they ran into Jud Gray, a hoisery salesman, an acquaintance of kitties, a hoisery salesman. His hoosery was not bunches hosiery. Now, Jud Gray was born in New York, but he spent most of his life in New Jersey. Actually, like Ruth, he had been sickly as a child, and he also felt isolated from other kids as a result. So they could kind of relate.

Yeah.

Among the illnesses that he suffered as a child, he suffered a particularly bad bout of pneumonia that actually almost killed him, and he had to spend a ton of time in the. In the hospital recovering from that.

Oh, wow.

A few years later, he was wrestling with another boy at school, and someone threw a fistful of sand in his face, and some of that got into his eye, which permanently impaired his vision. Whoa. Yeah. Like, you think. Just, like, one split second little thing.

Yeah. It's like, don't be a dick and throw sand in people's faces.

Yeah. Could ruin the rest of their life. But these setbacks in his younger years had left him a pretty shy, introverted child. He struggled to make friends with other. With other boys, and he spent most of his time with his mother and his sister, who he was really, really close to. He adored them.

Okay.

His awkward social skills left him with a lifelong feeling of inadequacy and a desperate desire to be included by his peers. Now, luckily, in 1908, when he was only 16, he ended up meeting his future wife, Isabel Kahlenbache. But according to McKellar, even grace falling in love was motivated by a desire to be one of the gang. At the time, his sister was engaged to be married. So he felt this pressure that he needed to find a partner, or he was risking becoming a third wheel. So, unfortunately, the positive addition of romance into his life was kind of offset by the fact that his father's attempt to transition from jeweler to jewelry manufacturer hadn't gone very well. And Judd was forced to quit school and become a salesman to help support the family.

Oh, wow.

So all of a sudden, he's got, like, a lot of change going on in his life. Now, when Judd's grandfather died in 1914, he actually was offered his grandfather's territory with the Empire Corset company. Judd had no experience at that point selling ladies undergarments, but the job paid better and was more reliable than jewelry sales, so he accepted it. And it was through that job as a salesman that he met Kitty Kaufman. And it was because of Kitty that in the summer of 1925, he found himself talking with Ruth Snyder.

Oh, that's how we get there.

Yep. And by the time he met Ruth, his own marriage was in serious decline. He and his wife had had a child together, and using the money from his inheritance, after his father's death, they bought a house in East Orange, New Jersey. But his job as a salesman meant that he cr. He had to travel a great deal. So they didn't really have a lot of alone time together.

Yeah.

And when they did manage to get time alone together, it was apparent that they had very different interests when it came to socialization. Judd's idea of a good time was going out to nightclubs, theaters, fancy restaurants. And Isabel much preferred to stay home and play cards.

So they were just opposite ends of the spectrum.

Apples and oranges. Exactly. In fact, after their daughter Jane was born, Isabel regularly discouraged Judd from going out, and she also hated the social group that he hung out with. So it was just.

So you're just kind of. Yeah. What are you gonna do?

Like, what do you do at that point?

What are your choices here?

Yeah. So by the time he was 30, Judd had reached a lot of major milestones of adulthood. Marriage, family, home ownership. But he was completely miserable.

Damn.

Now, that afternoon, when he joined Kitty and Ruth for lunch at Henry's, which was a swedish restaurant on 34th street, they spent the afternoon just drinking highballs and chatting and laughing. Drinking highballs, drinking highballs. Judd and Ruth enjoyed each other's company so much that they decided to get another drink together after Kitty left. And then another one. And another one. Now, when the afternoon inevitably had come to a close, Judd was so reluctant to leave that he insisted Ruth come see him at his office the next day to accept a free corset and also insisted that she write to him whenever he was out on the road.

Oh, yeah. Oh.

The relationship had begun innocently enough, I guess you could say. Sort of. It happened by, like, happenstance. But soon it became an all consuming affair for Jud, whose experience with women was literally just limited to his mother, his sister, and his wife, who he met at 16. Ruth was something of a wild woman. Remember, she's a cutout or a cut up.

She's a cutout.

She's a cutout. She's a cut up. She was exciting. She was sexually liberated. She was socially uninhibited. She was a great dad.

Yeah, she's cut up, man.

And Jud Ruth found that initial spark that had actually first drawn her to her own husband, Albert. He was attentive. He lavished her with gifts, attention. He loved going out, going to shows and restaurants. Like, it was literally like her and.

Albert's early days, so it's like bringing her back.

But his sales route kept him away more often than either of them would have liked. But whenever he was in New York, they would manage to make some excuse to their respective spouses about why they needed to be away overnight.

Eek.

Aka they're having a full blown affair.

Yeah, I was going to say we've reached a fair territory.

Neither of them was particularly public about the affair, but at times it seemed like they weren't really going out of their way to hide it either. Not long after they started seeing each other, Ruth was getting a large number of letters addressed to one misses Jane Gray, and she. Jane Gray, like Jane Doe, but his last name.

Wow.

Yeah.

Lady Jane Gray.

Oh, yeah, that's fancy, too.

Yeah.

And she told the postal worker to only deliver these specific letters to her, not to give them to anybody else.

Yeah, don't worry about it, though.

No, it's not.

It's not suspicious at all.

Don't be suspicious.

Don't be suspicious.

But at the same time, the Snyder's telephone bill ballooned in size due to all the long distance calls that Ruth was making to Judd while he was out on the road.

Yikes.

She told a friend, Al, about hit the ceiling once when he saw the long distance charges.

Al, about hit the ceiling?

I'm like, yeah, I bet he did.

Damn.

But if he had any idea about the affair, Albert never said as much. He also had a history of infidelity and was very likely having his own affair at the same time.

So he's like, who gives a shit?

He's like, yeah, I guess we're both doing that.

We're very unhappy.

But more importantly, by 1925, when the affair had begun, their marriage was, like, completely destroyed, so neither of them cared. They fought constantly, though, and their latest subject of debate was around their daughter. Ruth was willing to stay in the unhappy marriage, but she was determined to get Lorraine out of the house as soon as possible. And she wanted to send her to a boarding school, I think, because things were so dysfunctional, she just didn't want her around that. Yeah, she thought it would be better. In fact, she actually started working part time selling stock in a dental supply company door to door, trying to save some money to make it so she could send Lorraine away.

Oh, wow.

But Albert was completely opposed to this. He did not want to send Lorraine away, which is shocking, I know. Exactly. But according to McKellar, shortly after the argument misses Snyder became interested in insurance.

Wow. What an unrelated thing. Yeah, that won't have any bearing on this, I'm sure.

No, not at all. At first, her curiosity about insurance seemed rather innocuous. If Judd carried about $30,000 in life insurance, why did Albert, who had two recent brushes actually with accidental death, only carry 1000?

Why?

I don't know. In late November of 1925, Ruth said the same thing. She said, I don't know why he doesn't do this. So she invited an insurance agent, Leroy Ashfield, to the house to discuss increasing Albert's life insurance.

That's. I know. Back then, nobody knew that that was a red flag. Yet we know better now.

We definitely know better.

2024, we can all agree. Your spouse invites an insurance agent over to the house to discuss your life insurance and increasing it.

Lock the doors, sneak out the back and book a flight somewhere. Well, they'll never find you.

You want to go to a safe place.

Yes. But with the extra income she was receiving monthly from her father's estate following his death, they could definitely afford more insurance. And to her surprise, Albert agreed.

Oh, my.

A few days later, he called Ashfield's office and told them to write up a new policy for $50,000 with Ruth. Ruth listed as the beneficiary.

Whoa.

The policy also included a double indemnity clause, meaning that the company would pay double that in the event of an accidental death. Oh, so if he died by accident, she would actually get $100,000.

Oh, man.

Yes. On the morning of March 20, 1927, nine year old Lorraine Snyder was awoken by a strange sound at her bedroom door.

She's only nine.

I know she's a little bit. The family had been out at a party the night before, and she stayed up later than midnight. So she was groggier than usual. And it took her a few seconds before she realized it was actually a light tapping that she was hearing at her door. So she called up for her mom and dad, but got no answer. So she got out of bed and opened the door. And lying on the floor with her wrists and ankles bound together and a handkerchief stuffed in her mouth was her mother, Ruth, who had been tapping at the door lightly for some time.

That's so terrifying.

So Lorraine removed the gag, and Ruth told her to run to the phone and call their neighbor, Mister Mulhauser, for help. Mister Mulhauser arrived a few moments later and helped Ruth undo the rest of the bindings. While she gave her best recollection of what had happened, she told him, they hit me over the head and tied me up. I'm afraid for Albert uh oh. Listening on audible helps your imagination soar. Whether you listen to stories, motivation, expert advice, any genre you love, you can be inspired to imagine new worlds, new possibilities, and new ways of thinking. Find the genres you love and discover new ones along the way. Explore bestsellers new releases, plus thousands of included audiobooks and originals that members can listen to all they want with more added all the time. Audible makes it easy to be inspired and entertained as part of your daily routine without needing to set aside extra time. There's more to imagine when you listen. I am almost done with the guest list by Lucy Foley. I'm listening to that title right now and it is heating up. The lights keep going off. People are running from one tent to another.

There's a body outside. Ah, my imagination is soaring. As an audible member, you can choose one title a month to keep from the entire catalog, including the latest bestsellers and new releases. New members can try audible free for 30 days. Visit audible.com morbid or text morbid to 500 500. That's audible.com morbid or text morbid to 500 500 to try audible free for 30 days. Audible.com morbid if you're like me, you're constantly thinking about the safety of the people and things you value most. And after watching, like, 455 true crime documentaries and listening to this podcast, I knew, and I'm sure you know, that you need to secure a home with the best. My research led me to simply safe. I've trusted Simplisafe to protect my home for like four years now. And guys, the level of security and customer care has been incredible. I sleep better every single night knowing Simplisafe's 24/7 monitoring agents are standing by to protect me. And if someone tries to break in, they will send emergency help when I need it the most. Guys, I really want you to have the same peace of mind that I and so many listeners experience every day.

Which is why we have partnered with simplisafe to offer listeners 20% off of a system. Just visit simplisafe.com morbid. What I love most is that simplisafe just keeps getting better. With exclusive liveguard protection, simplisafe agents can act within 5 seconds of receiving your alarm and can even see and speak to intruders inside your home, warning them police are on their way. As a simplisafe user, it is literally no surprise that Simplisafe has been named best home security systems by Us News and World Report for five years running and the best customer service in home security by Newsweek. Protect your home this summer with 20% off any new simplisafe system. When you sign up for fast protect monitoring, just visit simplisafe.com morbid. That's simplisafe.com morbid. There's no safe like simplisafe. So Mulhauser went to the couple's bedroom and found that on one of their twin beds, quote, the covers were piled in a heat, bloodstained in two or three places. He pulled back the covers and discovered a badly beaten Albert Snyder, who had two large gashes in his head and a picture hanging wire wrapped tightly around his neck.

Oh, that's awful.

Yeah. When the police arrived, Ruth gave them the full account of what happened the night before. She said they had been out at the home of their friend George, Hugh and Albert. And George actually got into an argument that eventually caused the Snyders to leave. She said around 02:00 a.m. right as she was getting ready for bed, she heard a bored squeak in the hallway and she went to check, which is when she said two men came into the house. She said they were both strangers. One man, a giant, seized her by the throat and hit her over the head. After that, she said she could remember nothing until she woke up on the floor in the hall several hours later.

Wow.

Yeah. Crazy. So mister Mulhauser called another neighbor, George.

George.

George. George Cor and the two men helped Ruth into Lorraine's room before they called the police. The first to arrive at the house were patrolmen Robert Tucker and Edmund Schultes, who immediately evacuated. No, they immediately evaluated the scene.

They evacuated the area.

I have Taco Bell Ib's indigestion and I'm dying. I have evacuation on the brain. They immediately evaluated the scene as a robbery gone wrong. They briefly questioned Ruth, who just kept telling them the same story that she told the neighbors, and they started searching the home later. Both men would recall. At no time during her original questioning did Ruth ask about her husband or even seem remotely interested in how he.

Was doing she forgot that part. Yeah, she forgot that part of the screen.

She should have wrote that on her head. She was too focused.

Yeah, too focused on the story and not focused enough on, like. Also act like a human.

Yeah. Also worry about your husband, sister. A short time later, an ambulance arrived, along with local physician doctor Vincent Juster. The doctor made a quick evaluation of Albert's body and estimated he'd been dead about 6 hours. He placed his time of death right about the time that Ruth claimed they got home from the party. Jester examined Ruth, and despite what she'd claimed about being hit on the head, he could not find a single injury anywhere on her head or anywhere else on her body and could find nothing that would have caused her to lose consciousness for an extended period of time like she had claimed.

Did you forget that part, too?

Yeah. She did not knock her noggin.

The fact that she was like, I got hit in the head and passed out for several hours and didn't think that she should probably get herself a head wound.

No.

Okay.

She said, how would they know?

Yeah, how are they gonna know?

How are they gonna know but won't know? Rather than being disoriented, also like you would expect from somebody who had been hit over the head and lost consciousness for multiple hours, perhaps. He noted that Ruth seemed calm and.

Collected because she wasn't hit over the head.

Pretty much. Albert's body, though, was transferred to the medical examiner's office, where the autopsy was conducted by Doctor Howard Neal. The first observation that he noted was that Albert had two wounds on his head, one on the back of the skull and the other on the right near the forehead, both about an inch long and about half an inch wide. Both had been inflicted with a blunt, heavy object. Object. And although they did look superficial, they were the cause of death. Another serious injury was caused by manual strangulation. The picture hanging wire that had been wrapped tightly around his neck and strangled him. Yeah. Finally, and most curiously, there was a cotton rag stuffed into his mouth, and the strips of the same cotton fabric had been balled up and show shoved into both of his nostrils.

Oh, my God.

A chemical analysis would determine that the substance on the rag was chloroform.

Wow.

The same substance found on a blue handkerchief that was found on the bed at the crime scene.

Whoa.

Yeah. So he had been chloroformed like a ton.

Yeah.

Doctor Neal also evaluated Ruth at the hospital and came to the same conclusion that Jester had. It was very unlikely that she had ever lost consciousness at all, let alone for five or 6 hours, like she'd claimed. And Neil also pointed out that her wrists didn't show any signs that you would expect from a person who had been bound for an extended period of time and also had struggled to free themselves, like she said she had.

The fact that they were already up on these little, like, nuances in 1920, like these kind of things. Isn't that interesting? Yeah.

There was no chafing, no rash, no irritation on her wrists. And when he heard the story that she had given the police, he laughed and said 5 hours. Five minutes would be more like it.

Oh, you can't get past the forensic pathologist. You sure can. The medical examiners are gonna get you.

Every time, just like in.

Like in my case.

Yeah. It was only a few hours since investigators had arrived at the Snyder's house, and already the cracks in Ruth's story were starting to show. Her injuries didn't match the story that she was telling at all, and neither did the condition of Albert's body. It wasn't uncommon for someone to be killed during the commission of a robbery, but when it did happen, it didn't look like what detectives had discovered in the Snyder's bedroom. In botched robberies, the victims might be stabbed or shot before somebody runs away. But in this case, the killer not only hit Albert in the head, they also tried to render him unconscious with a large amount of chloroform. Then they also violently strangled him with a wire.

Yeah, that. I was gonna say. That was a lot of stuff. A lot for them to claim that they were just robbing.

Yeah. Like, if somebody had actually come into the Snyder house to rob them in the middle of the night, it seemed way more likely that, no, they didn't come to rob. They came to kill.

Yeah.

Finally, there was also the house itself. That seemed all wrong to investigators. In robberies, obviously, detectives fully intended to find the home ransacked, but in this case, the house had been, quote unquote. This is my favorite. Systematically turned topsy turvy.

I love that. They can always tell.

I just love the way that they describe it. Like, that's so 1920s, like, topsy turvy.

Turvy. And it's systematically topsy turvy.

Yes. It appeared that whoever had searched the house had gone room by room, tearing everything apart from the drawers and the cabinets to the closets and the couch cushions. But among the mess, there was a ton of valuable items, like Albert's gold watch with a platinum chain just lying about. But still, Ruth claimed that her most valuable jewelry was missing. And she said, also, I have a fur coat and $110 in cash was stolen from Albert's wallethood. So obviously, all of those things are gone.

Yeah.

And the thing was, though, that it was very telling to the detectives. Whoever had torn through the house also tore through the kitchen.

Oh, there's your towel.

One detective later told reporters, no professional burglar or thief ever even touches the kitchen.

What the fuck are they gonna find in there?

Nothing.

It's by chance, if they find something in there, waste time.

And if that you've already passed by all those, like a gold wall.

You're not gonna waste time in the kitchen.

No. There were other things about the scene that also seemed very strange and very convenient. Ruth had described the man who attacked her as italian, or at least italian looking. She said. And on the floor in the master bedroom, they discovered scraps of an italian language newspaper. So not only did this person supposedly rob them, they also sat down and read the newspaper and then ripped it.

Up and left it on the floor.

Yeah. And then it gets better.

That was so convenient of him.

It really was.

To do that.

It was super duper convenient.

So nice.

Also, on the table in the living room, detectives discovered a full glass of whiskey beside a newly opened bottle. And beside that was a half smoked cigarette and an ashtray.

Okay.

Neither Albert or Ruth smoked cigarettes. And according to her story, they came home from the party and immediately went to bed. So if what she was saying was true, that meant that at some point or another, before committing a brutal murder, the killer sat down in the living room, perhaps read that italian newspaper, smoked half a cigarette, and then poured a glass of whiskey for themselves, but never took a sip of it.

What's your point? I don't see anything wrong with.

That's wild. That's what Ruth said.

That's a while. Yeah.

They sat Ruth down and told her all of that. She said, what's your point?

Yeah.

Are you talking about.

I don't see what you want me to say here.

She said, I can't read Italian.

Sounds like a time.

She said, I also don't like whiskey. Yeah.

She's like. Sounds like a time was had.

I don't know.

Okay.

I was asleep.

Yeah.

I was unconscious.

I was unconscious for five or 6 hours with no headwind to be seen.

I have a strong skull.

Yeah.

It's just the way it is.

I heal really fast. I'm the slayer.

I am the chosen one.

I just heal really fast. I have superpowers.

Don't worry about it. Yeah, but, yeah. According to McLaughlin, McKellar. Excuse me, investigators, quote, did not give misses Snyder story the slightest credence.

Wow. It sounds like she really. She went in with a strong story at first. Fully confident. Man, that fell apart quick.

Yeah. Confidence doesn't always sell your story.

Doesn't it? Does in the. In the beginning, but once they start poking holes. Yeah, that fell apart.

And she made it really easy for them to do that. But all three doctors who evaluated her that morning concluded she didn't have any injuries that would explain her story. But that was only one of the details that didn't make sense. If her hands had been loosely bound in front of her, as they had been when the neighbor found her, why hadn't she at least untied the binding around her ankles?

Yeah. They were like, why would you stay bound like that?

And nothing at the seam at the scene made it seem like it was a robbery at all. What criminal would risk having to kill a man so brutally for a pretty meager payoff?

Yeah, that's the thing. It's like he would have. If what you're saying was true, he would have bonked you both in the head, ran around, grabbed what he could.

And he'd taken that gold watch.

Yeah. Now he goes.

Yeah.

And he wouldn't have stopped in the kitchen, I can tell you that much. And he definitely wouldn't be not drinking a whiskey, pouring it, smoking half a cigarette, and then ripping up an italian newspaper.

No. No, I don't think so. There was literally also nothing about Albert Snyder's public profile or their home that would imply wealth. So whoever was said to have broken in there would have been completely desperate and reckless. Yeah.

Like, it just didn't make anyone some planned crazy thing.

And like you were just saying, if they were so desperate, it, why would they take the time to pour a glass of whiskey, not drink it, and only smoke half a cigarette before they left? And why would they leave behind those valuables, which were in plain view?

The answer is they would not.

Yeah. No. It was clear to literally anyone with eyes or ears that Ruth was not being honest with detectives. And within a few hours of having called the police, she went from acting suspicious to being a full blown suspect.

Yeah.

When the most important part of her story turned out to be an outright lie. Because initially, like you remember, she claimed that some of her most valuable jewelry was gone. Rings, necklaces, brooches. She said they'd all been stolen and so had her expensive fur coat.

Yeah.

Within a few hours, investigators who were searching the home found all of that jewelry stuffed under a mattress in the bedroom.

Come on, man.

Like, she just put it under a mattress. Why? Why? When confronted with this, she said her memory had failed her and that she had forgotten. Hiding them there.

Oh, yeah. Yep.

And then.

That's the correct answer.

And then that coat that she claimed had been stolen was found in the back of a closet.

I mean, the jig is up.

I mean, I'm glad you couldn't, but, like, you couldn't do better than hiding that coat.

You couldn't even bring them out of the house at any point, you can.

Just throw them in the trash downstairs.

Literally do anything else.

She hid the coat in a closet. That's the first place literally anyone is gonna look.

That's where coats live.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So all things considered, that scene of a supposed burglary was starting to look like somebody had staged it.

You don't say.

And very badly.

Yeah.

When she was cleared by the doctor, Ruth was taken to the Jamaica precinct for further questions, which went on all day and well into the evening. Most interesting to the detectives asking the questions was how Ruth spoke of her now dead husband as though he was someone she didn't care for.

Oh, no.

When asked what kind of man he was, she replied, why? He was just the opposite from what I am. I'm young, and I like to have a good time and go out to parties and dance. He liked to stick around the house.

That's what we wanted to know. We were more asking a little deeper than that.

Does he know anybody that would ransack your house?

Eventually she said, he doesn't like to party, and he's old. And he's old. They were like, that's not what we were asking. Thank you for that, though.

Now, while she was being interviewed at the precinct, other officers started talking with the front of the Snyder's friends and neighbors to get a more accurate picture of their relationship. Of greatest interest to them was a fight that Albert had supposedly got to on the night of the murder. But that turned out to be a dead end when they learned that it was kind of just a petty squabble between friends. Reports of a suspicious, quote unquote feeble minded man seen in the area days before the murder were also investigated and quickly ruled out. And like we said, nothing about that scene suggested that any kind of break in had occurred. The doors and the windows were all still locked from the inside, and none of the entrances appeared to have been tampered with.

This was not well thought out, which I'm glad it wasn't because they got caught.

Yeah. But, like, wow, it's. It's actually appalling how little they played.

Yeah.

Because also, Albert's 32 caliber pistol, which he kept beside the bed for protection, was still undisturbed in its holster. So if he'd seen the attacker at all, it hadn't been alarming enough for him to reach for his gun.

That's interesting.

Yeah. As detectives inside the Jamaica precinct continued questioning Ruth into the early hours of the morning, they were, like, really going for her. Reporters had started to assemble outside the station, trying to await a statement from the commissioner McLoughlin. Which always makes me think of John.

Yeah, you're right.

Or District attorney Thomas Thornton. However, much to their disappointment, when McLaughlin finally emerged at 130 in the morning, his statement was brief and vague. He said, the investigation has not yet progressed far enough for me to make a definite statement.

To the point.

And if I was a reporter, I would have said boring.

Boring. Or if you're my youngest, you would say that.

Yeah. Boringen. Now, McLoughlin might not have had anything to say about the investigation at 01:30 a.m. but just a few hours later, the case broke wide open when Ruth broke down and confessed to playing a role in her husband's death. However, she blamed the actual murder itself on her lava. Jud. I was gonna say Jude. It's Judd. According to Ruth, she secreted Gray in the house early Saturday evening, then accompanied her husband and daughter to the home of friends, where they had a bridge party until after midnight. Once they returned home and Albert had fallen asleep, Gray emerged from his hiding place, snuck into the master bedroom, where he struck Albert twice in the head with a sash weight, and then stuffed the chloroform rags into his mouth and nose before wrapping the wire around the man's neck and strangling him to death.

Damn.

It's like, why did you guys do all of that? Once Albert was dead, Judd and Ruth went from one room to another, ransacking the house to make it seem like the place had been robbed. And then, after hiding what few valuables Ruth would claim had been stolen, Judd used the picture wire to gently bind her wrists and ankles and made sure she was comfortable in her bed before leaving the house. Wow. Yeah. Based on Ruth's confession, detectives searched for Jud Gray and eventually located him at a hotel in Syracuse, New York, where he was arrested on the afternoon of March 21. With both suspects now in custody, it wasn't long before Ruth and Judd turned on each other and started accusing one another of being the killer, of course, because that literally always happens. In her confession, Ruth claimed things became unbearable and I was looking for a way out. And in talking with Mister Gray, whereby we were talking about getting rid of him, wow.

It's like that just happens so casually.

We were just getting really close and we were talking, and then I said, what if we got rid of my husband?

You know, what if.

According to Ruth, by February of 1927, Albert had become intolerably abusive and on multiple occasions actually even threatened to kill her. And when she told Judd about the threats, she said his response was that they should, quote, get Snyder before he got her.

Wow.

Yeah. When he was first arrested, Judd claimed he actually never even met Albert Snyder and had no idea what the detectives were talking about. When the charges against him were read, he said, do you think I'm crazy? Why? I've never even met Snyder. The woman must be crazy when she involves me in this thing.

Bad person to set this up with.

Yeah, exactly. According to Judd, his relationship with Ruth was flirty and friendly, but they never, or they only ever possibly had lunch four or five times at the most. To say you possibly did something five times is bat shit crazy.

Maybe.

Possibly I did that five times.

Yeah, possibly.

Like, I don't know, like could have been. Oh, possibly I might have done that once. Yeah, that's very believable. Yeah, possibly I did that five times.

You know, like a whole handful of times.

Maybe you did that.

You did.

But he said so. Maybe I might have done that. But I never ever met her husband. Never. And he also claimed he had been in Syracuse the whole night that the murder even happened. And he also presented letters and phone records that said supposedly proved he was at that hotel when Albert was killed. Unfortunately for him, detectives quickly determined that those letters had been mailed in advance and the phone calls had been prearranged to support his alibi. So wrong.

There's that.

Being an adult has its high points. Like you can eat ice cream for dinner anytime or you can stay up all night if you want to, but its not all fun. You also have to do your taxes and figure out whats for dinner every freaking night, never ending. And you have to make doctors appointments. But for that one, theres Zocdoc, the healthcare app that makes adulting that much easier. Zocdoc is a free app and website where you can search and compare high quality in network doctors. Choose the right ones for your needs and click instantly to book an appointment were talking about in network appointments with more than 100,000 healthcare providers across every specialty, from mental health to dental health, eye care to skincare, and much more. You can filter for doctors who take your insurance, who are located nearby, who are a good fit for any medical need you may have, and who are highly rated by verified patients. Plus, Zocdoc appointments happen fast. Typically, within just 24 to 72 hours of booking, you can even score same day appointments. I mean, come on. I have used Zocdoc before just to get a quick appointment in when I've needed it, and it's been a lifesaver.

It's kind of just like looking at a catalog of doctors. They're all right at your fingertips. You can just pick one right out. So stop putting off those doctors appointments and go to zocdoc.com morbid find and instantly book a top rated doctor. Today, that's zocdoc.com morbid, sockdoc.com morbid. With his alibi rapidly crumbling, he decided to confess. But of course, he blamed Ruth. According to him, he did not want to kill Snyder, but he was coerced by Misses Snyder.

That makes it better.

Yeah. He said that she threatened to reveal their affair to his wife unless he helped her with the murder. Now, both Ruth and Judd's confessions were very similar and that they each detailed how they'd met, how Ruth had been suffering in her relationship with an abusive man, and that one of the motives for the murder was the insurance payout she was going to get if Albert died. Where they differed, though, obviously, was who was ultimately responsible for Albert's death. According to Judd, he hit Albert once with the weight, but then Ruth, quote, picked up the weight and struck him over the head again.

Whoa.

So he was like, I only did it once.

Yeah. And I wasn't the kill shot.

Yeah. He explained that the plan had started months earlier, but he never believed they would actually go through with it. We were just talking about murdering.

No one has ever talking casually about murdering someone that they are. And also, it's never casual.

You're inputting casually and you just don't think it's ever gonna happen.

You guys shouldn't be talking about this in a real way.

He told investigators they began by saying things like, quote, wouldn't it be great if the old man would only pass away?

Wow.

But that the idea, quote, unquote, remained in the wish state for a long time.

That's actually a fairly pretty sentence in another context.

Yeah. Remained in the wish state is beautiful. That's good writing.

It's in a different context.

Yeah. Anyway, the idea eventually did turn into a kind of half joke that they shared until they finally started to, quote, talk about ways and means of making that wish come true.

Wow, sir.

Yeah. If only it had remained in the wish state.

Yeah.

In his statement to the press, Queen's district attorney Richard Newcomb said a more cold blooded crime has never been conceived. And he vowed to prosecute both to the fullest extent of the law. I feel like they always say that it's very hyperbolic. It is.

I mean, like a very cold blooded crime, for sure. Very cold blooded. But among. Up there and in the. In the bad ones, for sure.

Definitely. But also, like, Jack the Ripper had already.

Jack the Ripper had been around, so.

But he announced that he planned to convene the grand jury as soon as humanly possible, and he was expecting indictments for first degree murder. In the meantime, Judd and Ruth were arraigned on March 22. And despite both having confessed, they entered pleas of not guilty. According to Ruth's lawyer, quote, the confession was wrung from her by duress. And Judd's lawyer, quote, hinted that a plea of insanity might be entered later. I feel like we're coming across that so often lately. According to the New York Times, while Judd had also recanted his confession, he almost immediately contradicted himself when he saw his wife later that day.

You don't say.

His. Imagine being that poor woman.

Yeah.

Not only do you learn that your man has been cheating on you, but that he is now involved in a.

Murder case because he murdered his mistresses husband for her.

Yeah. But when misses Gray asked her husband whether or not he had done what he'd been accused of, he, quote, hung his head, then nodded and said yes.

Oh, that's gut wrenching.

Yeah. It's like out of a movie.

Yeah.

On March, March 24, just two days after being charged, district attorney Newcomb's prediction came true when the grand jury handed down indictments for first degree murder for both Ruth and Judd. In total, the grand jury heard testimony from eight witnesses and viewed the full extent of the physical evidence. And they also heard full confessions from both of the accused. When the indictments were returned, Newcomb asked for a trial date of April 4, which was less than two weeks away. He said, this will allow ample time for the defense to prepare, and there is no reason for any longer delay.

He's like, shut up.

He's like, we're doing this. We need to get it done. Let's get it done. After the indictments were returned, Ruth and Judd both gave interviews to the press, where they both reasserted their defenses. Judd repeated his claim that he had only participated in the murder because Ruth threatened to expose their affair. But it was Ruth who struck the killing blow with the sash weight. He did not kill the man. He only participated.

No way. I did the first one, not the sex.

Like, does that really make it that much better?

You're still bad.

Yeah. Ruth, on the other hand, denied any responsibility and stuck to her story that her confession had been coerced. When a reporter asked her directly whether she participated in the murder of her husband, she said, God, no, and insisted that Albert was her first and only love.

Wow. Fake wow.

She also gave a somewhat dishonest description of her relationship with Judd, claiming that for more than a year, their friendship had been purely platonic. Also wrong. Doubt it, she said. It never would have been otherwise if my husband loved me, but Albert ceased to care for me. And then she paused for a moment before adding, oh, I'm awfully sorry about this.

I bet you are. I bet.

In the days leading up to the trial, her lawyer desperately tried to get the trial separated, likely knowing that being tied to Judd would only make his client look guilty. In fact, when the press considered Ruth's culpability alone, there was a growing consensus that it was, quote, unthinkable that a jury of men will condemn pretty Ruth Snyder to death. They won't. They won't find her guilty. She's gorge.

Not that. Heck. Not that hot cut up.

Yeah. No, never.

Yeah.

Judd's defense team, on the other hand, was determined to prevent that from happening. Given that no queen's jury had ever sentenced a woman to death, he stood a much better chance of avoiding the death penalty if he were to be tried alongside Ruth.

I love that they had opposite reasons for it.

Yeah, exactly. In the end, Ruth lost her bid to have the cases separated, and the two went on to be tried together.

So not good for her.

Judd thought it was going to be good for him. It wasn't good for Ruth. And I'll let you know right here that it's actually not good for either of them.

Woof.

After a week of difficult jury selection, the trial began on Monday, April 25, with a courtroom full of celebrities and locals all eager to get a glimpse of these killers.

Wow.

Yeah. What a different time. Outside the courthouse, vendors sold popcorn and hot dogs while the overflow crowd attempted to see through doors and windows.

Wow.

At one point, a guy even arrived with a load of wood and tried to build a foot riser. To see in the windows.

Now, that's just innovative.

That is innovative.

That's just putting your skills to good use.

But eventually they told him to go away.

Yeah. I mean, you can't do that, but, like, could you? Somebody must have, like, patted him on the back and been, like, in another situation, this was pretty good.

Absolutely.

Pretty smart.

I would have. In his opening statement, district Attorney Newcomb laid out the case in pretty simple terms. He said Ruth Snyder and Jud Gray had been involved in an affair for over a year. And eventually they decided to murder Albert in order to, one, avoid the stigma and problems of a divorce, and also to access that large life insurance payout that Ruth was going to get upon his death. Newcomb assured the jury that the state would prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the death was not an impulsive act, but was the result of constant and repeated planning that went back many months and that both of the accused were equally responsible for this murder.

Bam.

Yeah. In the days that followed, the prosecution called a number of witnesses. They presented considerable evidence in support of their theory that Albert Snyder's death had been the result of a conspiracy perpetrated by his wife and Jud Gray. Among the most damning evidence was the insurance policy, which Newcomb claimed Snyder had been, quote, tricked into signing without reading it, studying it, or knowing what it was about.

How did that even happen?

According to Leroy Ashfield, the agent from the Prudential Life insurance company, Ruth convinced her husband to sign the document in which the amounts had been left blank. And Ashfield filled in the highest amounts once it had been signed. And once it had been signed. Ruth, quote, paid all the premiums herself and gave instructions that all mail relating to this policy be sent only to her.

And no one thought that was a little strange?

Imagine the poor postal worker that worked for her, or, like, worked like, had her on his route.

Yeah.

Yikes. The insurance documents and testimony from Ashfield were definitely the most compelling evidence of a conspiracy. But by far the most damning evidence was the written confessions that both of these fuckers made when they were arrested.

It always is.

And both of those were read aloud for the jury. In Judd's confession, he claimed, with some veiled threats and intense lovemaking, she reached the point where she got me in such a whirl that I didn't even know where I was at. Like, wow, okay. Like, we. That's just saying we had good sex, and she convinced me to murder her husband.

Exactly.

It was the worst excuse ever.

I'm not very sympathetic to it.

And he admitted that he played some role in Snyder's murder, but he said he only had done so because Ruth, quote, hounded him into the crime. He went on to say that Ruth had actually already tried to kill Albert six times prior to the final act. And when he first learned of her plans, he was horrified and told her so. It's like, but you still showed up to take part in this, so that doesn't matter.

Like, Ruth is like, I tried it six times, and he's like, what? I'm shocked that you would kill your husband.

That's crazy.

What?

After the prosecution rested their case, Ruth's defense team took over and called their first witnesse Ruth Snyder. In the weeks since her arrest, she had gone from confessing to the murder to now not only claiming that she played no part in it, but that she had actually tried to save her husband from Jud Gray.

Wow.

According to Ruth, she, quote, found Jud Gray kneeling on the back of the sleeping man, hitting him with a sash weight, and she dragged him off.

I bet.

Yeah, totally.

I bet that's what happened.

She claimed at that point, he threatened her with a pistol and told her not to interfere or he would kill her. She told the jury, I was mortally afraid of him. I saw what a terrible man he was. I couldn't see any other way out than to do what he asked me to do.

This is so real.

It's like, well, what did he ask you to do? Because you just said you played no part in this other than trying to stop it.

Yeah.

So you just contradicted yourself.

So wha.

So what is it you're saying, mom? Throughout her hours of testimony, the press noted the attitude of the courtroom was generally not one which would communicate. Which would communicate sympathy for the witness.

You know what say.

And if she wasn't getting much sympathy from the men on the jury, she was going to get even less from Newcomb. On cross examination for hours, he went point by point in her testimony and called into question every inaccuracy and every conflict. And she mostly responded with I don't know, or I don't remember, which is.

Definitely translates to, you got me?

Yeah, exactly. The trial finally came to a close on May 9, 1927, when the jury retired for deliberation. Before sending the jury out, Justice Townsend Scudder reminded the jury of their charge. The defendant Gray contends that the suggestion to murder Albert Snyder was first made by the defendant Snyder. The defendant Snyder contends that the suggestion to murder Albert Snyder was first made by the defendant gray. He says she proposed it. She says he proposed it. It is your duty to ascertain and declare the facts. Act without fear or favor, without sympathy or prejudice, find the truth in the evidence, follow it, and apply the law the court has given you and bring in a just verdict.

Somebody went, booyah.

It's after that. Don't you just picture them in, like, a group huddle?

Yes.

Like, on the sideline.

That was like a coaches, like, you know, pump up speech before the big.

Game at the end, he just said, like, hands in.

Yeah, absolutely.

Now jaw went, hoorah. Hoorah. Just before 07:00 p.m. on May 10, the jury emerged from deliberation to find Ruth and Judd both guilty of first degree murder.

That. I was actually a little shocked by that just because of, like, how messy this whole thing was.

Yeah.

You know, like, it could have easily gone another way where, like, one of them got out of it.

I know. And you would usually think that it would be Ruth just because of the time period and the fact that, like, she was pretty, so they thought she might be able to kind of sway the jury.

But I think it was them together. I think it did not work. I mean, I think she was guilty also, but. Yeah, like, I don't think it worked in her favor.

I think it was together. Yeah. To the. Them being together and just the evidence at the house, like, I mean, you can't get her saying all her shit was missing and then them finding it hidden.

Oh, yeah.

And then her having no injuries, even though she claimed she was beaten over the head.

That's the thing. It was like, it would probably be Judd who would get out of it or get lesser. I don't think either one of them are going to get out of. We're going to get out of it, but whenever there's two, you always think one of them might get out of it. And this one. Nope.

Well, this is actually interesting, and it's funny that you say this right now, because in the case of Judd, eleven of the twelve jurymen voted guilty, and one juror left his decision blank.

Interesting.

They actually believed that Judd had been telling the truth, but they couldn't ignore the fact that he had voluntarily participated in the murder. So they. They didn't really have a choice but to find him guilty.

Yeah, that makes sense. But they sense.

They believed what he was saying.

Like, that he was saying he didn't intend to or that he wasn't going there to do that.

Yeah, but that, like, she had kind of, like, swindled him into it, but in Ruth's case, the jurors were unanimous in disbelieving the story that Ruth had told the court, and all twelve of them voted to find her guilty. So I think even if she had been tried on her own, I think the only one who might have benefited from being tried separately was Judd, which.

Is what I thought.

Yeah, I agree with you there. Now, four days later, on May 14, Ruth Snyder and Judd Gray were back before justice Scudder, where they were both sentenced to die by the electric chair. And remember, no woman in a queen's jury had ever been sentenced like this. The hearing took 15 minutes from the time they entered the courtroom until they learned their fates. As she was let out of the courtroom after hearing the verdict, Ruth loudly announced, this is only a formality. I have just as good of a chance now of going to free as I had before the trial started.

Survey says that's a lie.

Survey says you're Dululu.

Yeah, that's a no.

Like, this is a formality. No, bitch. This is a literal trial.

This is a literal sentencing. Like, you don't get more official.

No. Ruth and Judd had definitely put a great deal of hope into the appeals process, and they were determined, if nothing else, they would be able to avoid the death penalty. But unfortunately, by January 1928, both of them had exhausted their appeals, and every attempt at clemency or stay of execution had been rejected by the governor. I mean, yeah, they tried everything. And it was like, nope, nope, nope, nope.

Absolutely not.

So on the evening of January 12, Ruth Snyder and Judd Gray were both fled to the electric chair at Sing Sing prison. Ruth first followed by Gray. As she was led to the chair, Ruth reportedly, quote, prayed without ceasing and stared with eyes from which all human intelligence had Fleda whoa.

What a descriptor.

I know. At 11:00 p.m. the executioner threw the switch, ending Ruth's life in a matter of moments. At the moment that the switch was thrown, Tom Howard, a photographer from Daily News.

This is wild.

Snapped a photo of Ruth using a camera that he snuck into the prison strapped to his ankle. He literally like, bonkers. Like, that is commitment on another level.

That is journalism right there.

That's journalism.

That is some commitment to the journalism.

Cause we'll post the picture that he got, and it was literally plastered on the front page of the Daily News the next morning. And when you see this picture, you're like, imagine getting your newspaper, and that's.

And that's your front page. And doesn't. Didn't it just say dead.

Yes.

It literally just said dead on the front. Like, whoa.

Intense. Now, Judd's execution quickly followed, and when asked whether he had anything to say on his behalf, he said, I was carried forward by some power outside myself, but I had made my peace with God and am now prepared to die. At 1113, the executioner threw the switch, sending thousands of volts of electricity through his body, and a cloud of smoke rose through the air. At 1114, the prison doctor announced Jud Gray was dead.

Wow.

And that is the story of the murder of Albert Snyder.

And the fact that it ends with an ankle photo of somebody as the switch is flicked, getting electrocuted. Like, the electric chair to me is so barbaric. It's just the look of it, the idea of it, the methodology of it is so barbaric to me. Like, it just in black and white terms, like, that is a barbaric thing.

No, I completely agree.

So seeing it is just so jarring. Like, it's very, very jarring.

Like the. And just, you can. You can see the electricity in the photo, like, yeah, you can, like, feel it. Yeah, it's weird.

Yeah, it's very nice. And the fact that he just plopped it on the front page, like, damn.

Yeah.

What a time.

What a fucking time. And the fact that obviously, like, nobody had ever snuck a camera in before, and he did it with his ankle.

And, you know, that can never happen. You know, like, with the. With technology and, like, metal detectors and shit.

No way.

That's wild.

Yeah, it's a crazy story.

Damn.

So we hope you keep listening, and.

We hope you keep it weird.

Honestly, keep it so weird that you have that much dedication to your journalism.

Yeah, that's a lot of dedication.

I like that I don't have to tell you not to keep it so weird that you shouldn't murder your husband. You should know that by now.

Yeah. You know, not to keep it that weird.

Bye bye, Sadeena. If you like morbid, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey@wondery.com. survey. She struck him with her motor vehicle. She had been under the influence and she left him there. In January 2022, local woman Karen Reid was implicated in the mysterious death of her boyfriend, Boston police officer John Okeefe. It was alleged that after an innocent night out for drinks with friends, Karen and John got into a lovers quarrel en route to the next location. What happens next depends on who you ask. Was it a crime of passion? If you believe the prosecution, it's because the evidence was so compelling.

This was clearly an intentional act, and.

His cause of death was blunt force trauma with hypothermia or a corrupt police cover up. If you believe the defense theory, however, this is all a cover up to prevent one of their own from going down. Everyone had an opinion, and after the ten week trial, the jury could not come to a unanimous decision to end in a mistrial. It's just a confirmation of just how complicated this case is. Law and crime presents the most in depth analysis to date of the sensational case in Karen. You can listen to Karen exclusively with Wondery Plus. Join wondery plus in the Wondery app, Apple podcasts, or Spotify.