This episode contains descriptions of disordered eating, so please take care. Resources are available in the show notes. The strangeness of what was happening with my sister hit me little by little and then all at once. Because, of course, these behaviors of hers with deception and medical issues went back quite a ways. We both moved out of the house for college when we turned 18. I went to California for college and then went to New York for the rest of my 20s. I was just being a young person and living my own life, and she was on the other side of the country. Our family really stayed close throughout most of that time, even though being planted that then exploded and turned into something really big. And it's really hard to grapple with that and understand it. And I know, I mean, looking back with all of it, it's like she She was very deliberate about everything. She pitted me and my sister against each other our whole lives. I was the thin one. I was the athletic one. I was the sick one who needed attention. And she did it deliberately, right? To make it so that I would fight with her and she would fight with me. We would fight over who was mom's favorite and who could get attention from mom. And then if she was madare still there, even if they don't make sense. For Joe, coming back to Hutchinson must feel like walking into a forest with a blindfold on.I was living with you as a teenager. So I know people were aware, and it's I still felt so alone and was alone in a lot of ways, some of it because I didn't have words to verbalize what was going on.I didn't have any idea what was all happening and stuff like that. So It makes sense, but it's just so confusing to hold both. I really did have a village. I really did have a lot of really, really, really good people, good, safe people in my life. And I was still in a really shitty situation. That was out of a lot of people's control.Kristen becomes very emotional listening to Joe say all of this.What are you thinking?I fully understand everything that you're saying. I totally get it, and it hurts. I hurt for a 17-year-old Joe. I hurt for a child. Joe that carried that. You never... We all fucking cause harm, all of us, especially when we're teenagers. We're growing, we're shitty. My teenagers, I love them, but they're shitty right now. We all do shit, and we all cause harm. And you didn't deserve any of the shit that you were going through. And none of that has None of that shit was on you. None of it. You weren't evil. You weren't doing anything. You were learning and growing and doing the best that you could with the tools that were in your box as we all were. And I think that 10 years makes a big difference in being able to recognize that and just the growth that has happened, I mean, psychologically. And it's incredible. It's incredibly enlightening.Just as Joe's first-grade teacher, Mrs. Becker, did, Kristen remembers Donna as taking great pains to present herself as a good mom. Kristen explains what happened at Joe's high school graduation party.She wanted it to look like she was doing so much for Joe when she didn't do anything. Like, literally, Joe arranged her entire graduation party. But I remember she was just very much wanting to be the mom that loves her daughter, wants everyone to know this is my Joe. And again, this is many years ago. But my overall impression was that she very much wanted an audience for her good parenting when she wasn't present as a parent, from what I could tell, because Joe is living with me. And didn't see her. She didn't come by and check on her to see how she was doing.The graduation party. I have pictures of us together at my grad party. So I reached out to my mom and said, Hey, I need all the pictures of me from when I was a kid so I can do something for my grad party. And my mom was like, You have to give these back. These are so important.Oh my God. Yeah, that's right. You better not ruin them. I still have them, all of them. I just have told her that I lost them or something, or I ignore the text. But for years, probably a good decade, she would randomly reach out and be like, Do you have those pictures? And I'd be like, I don't know what you're talking about. They're mine. That's literally me. I have to make a comment about that. So I got these big poster boards and put together all these pictures and got help because I had no idea what I was doing. I think at that time, I was still really involved with my church, even though later found out that that same church, people had been warning people about me and to stay away from me because I was a bad kid or something.Who's to say? But they did the performance. They made food for the grad party. I invited people. I was 17 and put together this whole thing as someone who was so sheltered my entire life. No idea what I was doing. But we got some people to make some food. My sister I just husband's mom made cupcakes. That's right. And then I reserved a space at a park or somehow. I literally don't know how any of demanding.During this time, Kristen was really up to her eyeballs in life stuff. A young mom in a troubled relationship struggling with her own eating disorder. And yet, she clocked what was going on between Joe and their mom was serious. There was something really dark simmering beneath the surface, but Kristen couldn't put her finger on it until later when Joe began to open up about the fact that they'd been a victim of Munchhasm by proxy abuse.I think just being connected through social media, I just followed Joe through their story on social media and kept up to date that way. And when they started coming to light with all of these things, it was like, it all made so much more sense. She made a lot more sense because it is that wanting attention demandingly. I don't know.Do you remember me ever being sick or having different physical issues, I guess, going on?In line with the eating disorder, yes. But other than that, no.Yeah, which actually that makes so much sense. I talk a lot about how I think once I left the home, I asked questions, and I'm not sure I would have had any memory of it because I don't think I really... I blocked I had pretty much everything out until 2016. So it's like, yeah, you could have asked all the right questions, and I still don't think I would have had the words or the language or any the understanding. I just knew that I was unwell.How does it feel to see how far Joe's since.Fucking glorious.The mystery of Joe's medical history is one they've spent years unraveling. And while we're in Hutchinson, we stop by a place that is easily as familiar to Joe as any of the houses they lived in with Donna, the hospital.I'm Dr. Kate McGinnis, and I'm I'm a family doctor in Hutchinson, Minnesota, and I've been here for 34 plus years. I took care of Joe when she was young, on and off.I remember Dr. Mcginnis being a really safe person. I remember just always feeling really safe, and I could tell her a lot of things. Obviously, I didn't know a lot of what was going on for me, but she was the first person that I ever told that I been purging to... I mean, she asked outright, Have you ever made yourself throw up? And I was like, Oh, my gosh, no one's ever asked me this before. I said yes, and then I know for a while, I saw her weekly to get weights and draw labs and just make sure that the eating disorder stuff wasn't causing too much physical damage until she helped me get into Melrose Center in the cities. What do you remember about... I know it was a while ago, but what do you remember about that time seeing Joe?Well, that I was worried about her and that I knew things weren't going well, and we did not have a lot of resources for eating disorders. It was just all coming out in the '90s.Yeah, I think my memory really once the eating disorder was more like full force. I didn't have many other health issues It was really the eating disorder. I don't think my mom came with to a lot of the appointments.Do you have any memory of meeting Joe's mom? Oh, yeah. What were your impressions of her?Well, I know that she was pretty dysfunctional and had a lot of issues. I think that was part of why you developed your eating disorder with some of her dysfunction, is my impression. But your grandma played into that, too. I think, too. What do you mean? Well, I think when I was looking at your chart last night, I looked at one note from Melrose, your initial evaluation, and they said something about your grandma said I told you to always suck in your gutter, you'd look fat. So I don't know if you have that memory, too.Oh, yeah. I do have that memory.So that's not really a healthy thing. I think that people should be saying to anybody. No. But I think there was plenty of issues to go around.Yeah. I remember that vividly. I was wearing my green and blue swimsuit, and I sat down, and then my grandma was like, stand up, stuck in your stomach before you sit down. Otherwise, you'll look fat. And that did stick with me for so much of my life. I would do exactly that because I thought that's what you're supposed to do. And then not long after that, I started weighing myself every day. Didn't understand weight at the time, but it just became like a- Remember how old you were? Probably around seven. Yeah. I have a picture of me in that little bathing suit. I was a very tiny kid. I needed more food to be eating. I was unhealthy. So then to be telling me that I should suck in my stomach because I'm looking a certain way or things like that. I mean, obviously all fat phobic and inappropriate regardless.This piece of Joe's story is unfortunately all too relatable, and I am certain I'm not the only one who was just transported back to some bad swimsuit moment from their own childhood. So yes, just a reminder to those who need it, don't make comments to kids about their bodies because an off-the-cuff remark can lodge itself in their spongy little brains forever. Don't do it to the fat kids. Don't do it to the skinny kids. Just don't. Okay? Don't. Much like their teacher, Mrs. Becker, Joe's doctors were deeply concerned about their well-being and tried to intervene.I know that Dr. Wilson said she was really worried about you and had documented in confidential files and turned you into social services.Dr. Wilson is a big part of Joe's story of discovery, and we'll be talking to her in the next episode. Joe found themselves in a predicament that many survivors encounter. By the time they discovered that nothing about their health history made any sense, the documentation that would have been able to illuminate it is long gone. When did you become aware that Joe had been suffering from this abuse?Hard to say. I mean, I'd have to go back and look at my notes, which I can't access because there are three computer systems ago, which is a problem with changing computer systems. But I would think that I had that in the back of my mind. When people have an issue, whether it's chronic ear infections or when chosen it's by proxy, depression, anxiety, whatever it is, it goes on your problem list, and you review that before you see every patient. So you But have, oh, these are the things they've had in the past.I had a long problems list. Yeah.But I mean, just to be aware of that. But like I said, I think I mostly saw you and we were focusing on what you said and weighing you in and talking about what all was going on and telling me to eat, trying to get you into treatment. Because at that time, I think Melrose Place was the only eating disorders option we had. I think, like I said, I was worried about you. I know things could have been good at home, but I don't think we talked a lot about exactly what was going on because that would be pretty classic of a child of an alcoholic.I told you, I think more than anyone, which says a lot, right? If you say, I didn't really say much. But I remember coming in to the appointments. I was always nervous because I always thought I was going to get in trouble or something. Not because you ever made me feel that way, but just because I knew that I wasn't eating or I was purging or doing things that were harmful. So I was always nervous about that. But at the same time, I liked coming in, I guess, every week.I liked that You were my support.You were that adult in my life or whatever. I'm sure that that played out with the struggles with the eating disorder, to keep me being able to come see you every week. And things like that because I be careful.I thought that just smelling food, the calories will seep into my skin. I was so struggling very, very deeply. But now, sometimes I'll be like, wow, it's weird that I'm just eating. But that's the most... It's just a slight thought where I'm like, whoa, this is different. But now I'm like, oh, I'm hungry. I need food. I think I don't really think much.That's such a positive thing because there are plenty of people who struggle their whole lives. So I just am so impressed with the progress you've made. I just want to reiterate how impressed I am, how far you've come, because people can go the other way and become more psychiatrically ill when they've had difficult childhoods. We'll call your childhood that. I think it's reasonable. And you've It just really, really turned yourself around and made such a positive impact on the world. I'm very impressed. So pat yourself on the back.Next time, we go down the medical records rabbit hole with Joe and talk about how the trauma they suffered impacted their young mind. I would say being a multiple is having one body that has has many selves in the mind. You have many independent selves who share one physical body. Most of the time, it's understood that the biggest reason that can happen is from surviving extreme and prolonged trauma. Nobody Should Believe Me is written, hosted, and produced by me, Andrea Dunlop. Our senior producer and editor is Mariah Gosset. Greta Stromquist is our associate producer. Engineering by Robin Edgar, an administrative administrative support from Nola Karmush. Music provided by Jonny Nicholson and Joel Shupak, with additional music and sounds from Sound Snap. Thank you to Cadence 3 for additional recording support.

being planted that then exploded and turned into something really big. And it's really hard to grapple with that and understand it. And I know, I mean, looking back with all of it, it's like she She was very deliberate about everything. She pitted me and my sister against each other our whole lives. I was the thin one. I was the athletic one. I was the sick one who needed attention. And she did it deliberately, right? To make it so that I would fight with her and she would fight with me. We would fight over who was mom's favorite and who could get attention from mom. And then if she was madare still there, even if they don't make sense. For Joe, coming back to Hutchinson must feel like walking into a forest with a blindfold on.I was living with you as a teenager. So I know people were aware, and it's I still felt so alone and was alone in a lot of ways, some of it because I didn't have words to verbalize what was going on.I didn't have any idea what was all happening and stuff like that. So It makes sense, but it's just so confusing to hold both. I really did have a village. I really did have a lot of really, really, really good people, good, safe people in my life. And I was still in a really shitty situation. That was out of a lot of people's control.Kristen becomes very emotional listening to Joe say all of this.What are you thinking?I fully understand everything that you're saying. I totally get it, and it hurts. I hurt for a 17-year-old Joe. I hurt for a child. Joe that carried that. You never... We all fucking cause harm, all of us, especially when we're teenagers. We're growing, we're shitty. My teenagers, I love them, but they're shitty right now. We all do shit, and we all cause harm. And you didn't deserve any of the shit that you were going through. And none of that has None of that shit was on you. None of it. You weren't evil. You weren't doing anything. You were learning and growing and doing the best that you could with the tools that were in your box as we all were. And I think that 10 years makes a big difference in being able to recognize that and just the growth that has happened, I mean, psychologically. And it's incredible. It's incredibly enlightening.Just as Joe's first-grade teacher, Mrs. Becker, did, Kristen remembers Donna as taking great pains to present herself as a good mom. Kristen explains what happened at Joe's high school graduation party.She wanted it to look like she was doing so much for Joe when she didn't do anything. Like, literally, Joe arranged her entire graduation party. But I remember she was just very much wanting to be the mom that loves her daughter, wants everyone to know this is my Joe. And again, this is many years ago. But my overall impression was that she very much wanted an audience for her good parenting when she wasn't present as a parent, from what I could tell, because Joe is living with me. And didn't see her. She didn't come by and check on her to see how she was doing.The graduation party. I have pictures of us together at my grad party. So I reached out to my mom and said, Hey, I need all the pictures of me from when I was a kid so I can do something for my grad party. And my mom was like, You have to give these back. These are so important.Oh my God. Yeah, that's right. You better not ruin them. I still have them, all of them. I just have told her that I lost them or something, or I ignore the text. But for years, probably a good decade, she would randomly reach out and be like, Do you have those pictures? And I'd be like, I don't know what you're talking about. They're mine. That's literally me. I have to make a comment about that. So I got these big poster boards and put together all these pictures and got help because I had no idea what I was doing. I think at that time, I was still really involved with my church, even though later found out that that same church, people had been warning people about me and to stay away from me because I was a bad kid or something.Who's to say? But they did the performance. They made food for the grad party. I invited people. I was 17 and put together this whole thing as someone who was so sheltered my entire life. No idea what I was doing. But we got some people to make some food. My sister I just husband's mom made cupcakes. That's right. And then I reserved a space at a park or somehow. I literally don't know how any of demanding.During this time, Kristen was really up to her eyeballs in life stuff. A young mom in a troubled relationship struggling with her own eating disorder. And yet, she clocked what was going on between Joe and their mom was serious. There was something really dark simmering beneath the surface, but Kristen couldn't put her finger on it until later when Joe began to open up about the fact that they'd been a victim of Munchhasm by proxy abuse.I think just being connected through social media, I just followed Joe through their story on social media and kept up to date that way. And when they started coming to light with all of these things, it was like, it all made so much more sense. She made a lot more sense because it is that wanting attention demandingly. I don't know.Do you remember me ever being sick or having different physical issues, I guess, going on?In line with the eating disorder, yes. But other than that, no.Yeah, which actually that makes so much sense. I talk a lot about how I think once I left the home, I asked questions, and I'm not sure I would have had any memory of it because I don't think I really... I blocked I had pretty much everything out until 2016. So it's like, yeah, you could have asked all the right questions, and I still don't think I would have had the words or the language or any the understanding. I just knew that I was unwell.How does it feel to see how far Joe's since.Fucking glorious.The mystery of Joe's medical history is one they've spent years unraveling. And while we're in Hutchinson, we stop by a place that is easily as familiar to Joe as any of the houses they lived in with Donna, the hospital.I'm Dr. Kate McGinnis, and I'm I'm a family doctor in Hutchinson, Minnesota, and I've been here for 34 plus years. I took care of Joe when she was young, on and off.I remember Dr. Mcginnis being a really safe person. I remember just always feeling really safe, and I could tell her a lot of things. Obviously, I didn't know a lot of what was going on for me, but she was the first person that I ever told that I been purging to... I mean, she asked outright, Have you ever made yourself throw up? And I was like, Oh, my gosh, no one's ever asked me this before. I said yes, and then I know for a while, I saw her weekly to get weights and draw labs and just make sure that the eating disorder stuff wasn't causing too much physical damage until she helped me get into Melrose Center in the cities. What do you remember about... I know it was a while ago, but what do you remember about that time seeing Joe?Well, that I was worried about her and that I knew things weren't going well, and we did not have a lot of resources for eating disorders. It was just all coming out in the '90s.Yeah, I think my memory really once the eating disorder was more like full force. I didn't have many other health issues It was really the eating disorder. I don't think my mom came with to a lot of the appointments.Do you have any memory of meeting Joe's mom? Oh, yeah. What were your impressions of her?Well, I know that she was pretty dysfunctional and had a lot of issues. I think that was part of why you developed your eating disorder with some of her dysfunction, is my impression. But your grandma played into that, too. I think, too. What do you mean? Well, I think when I was looking at your chart last night, I looked at one note from Melrose, your initial evaluation, and they said something about your grandma said I told you to always suck in your gutter, you'd look fat. So I don't know if you have that memory, too.Oh, yeah. I do have that memory.So that's not really a healthy thing. I think that people should be saying to anybody. No. But I think there was plenty of issues to go around.Yeah. I remember that vividly. I was wearing my green and blue swimsuit, and I sat down, and then my grandma was like, stand up, stuck in your stomach before you sit down. Otherwise, you'll look fat. And that did stick with me for so much of my life. I would do exactly that because I thought that's what you're supposed to do. And then not long after that, I started weighing myself every day. Didn't understand weight at the time, but it just became like a- Remember how old you were? Probably around seven. Yeah. I have a picture of me in that little bathing suit. I was a very tiny kid. I needed more food to be eating. I was unhealthy. So then to be telling me that I should suck in my stomach because I'm looking a certain way or things like that. I mean, obviously all fat phobic and inappropriate regardless.This piece of Joe's story is unfortunately all too relatable, and I am certain I'm not the only one who was just transported back to some bad swimsuit moment from their own childhood. So yes, just a reminder to those who need it, don't make comments to kids about their bodies because an off-the-cuff remark can lodge itself in their spongy little brains forever. Don't do it to the fat kids. Don't do it to the skinny kids. Just don't. Okay? Don't. Much like their teacher, Mrs. Becker, Joe's doctors were deeply concerned about their well-being and tried to intervene.I know that Dr. Wilson said she was really worried about you and had documented in confidential files and turned you into social services.Dr. Wilson is a big part of Joe's story of discovery, and we'll be talking to her in the next episode. Joe found themselves in a predicament that many survivors encounter. By the time they discovered that nothing about their health history made any sense, the documentation that would have been able to illuminate it is long gone. When did you become aware that Joe had been suffering from this abuse?Hard to say. I mean, I'd have to go back and look at my notes, which I can't access because there are three computer systems ago, which is a problem with changing computer systems. But I would think that I had that in the back of my mind. When people have an issue, whether it's chronic ear infections or when chosen it's by proxy, depression, anxiety, whatever it is, it goes on your problem list, and you review that before you see every patient. So you But have, oh, these are the things they've had in the past.I had a long problems list. Yeah.But I mean, just to be aware of that. But like I said, I think I mostly saw you and we were focusing on what you said and weighing you in and talking about what all was going on and telling me to eat, trying to get you into treatment. Because at that time, I think Melrose Place was the only eating disorders option we had. I think, like I said, I was worried about you. I know things could have been good at home, but I don't think we talked a lot about exactly what was going on because that would be pretty classic of a child of an alcoholic.I told you, I think more than anyone, which says a lot, right? If you say, I didn't really say much. But I remember coming in to the appointments. I was always nervous because I always thought I was going to get in trouble or something. Not because you ever made me feel that way, but just because I knew that I wasn't eating or I was purging or doing things that were harmful. So I was always nervous about that. But at the same time, I liked coming in, I guess, every week.I liked that You were my support.You were that adult in my life or whatever. I'm sure that that played out with the struggles with the eating disorder, to keep me being able to come see you every week. And things like that because I be careful.I thought that just smelling food, the calories will seep into my skin. I was so struggling very, very deeply. But now, sometimes I'll be like, wow, it's weird that I'm just eating. But that's the most... It's just a slight thought where I'm like, whoa, this is different. But now I'm like, oh, I'm hungry. I need food. I think I don't really think much.That's such a positive thing because there are plenty of people who struggle their whole lives. So I just am so impressed with the progress you've made. I just want to reiterate how impressed I am, how far you've come, because people can go the other way and become more psychiatrically ill when they've had difficult childhoods. We'll call your childhood that. I think it's reasonable. And you've It just really, really turned yourself around and made such a positive impact on the world. I'm very impressed. So pat yourself on the back.Next time, we go down the medical records rabbit hole with Joe and talk about how the trauma they suffered impacted their young mind. I would say being a multiple is having one body that has has many selves in the mind. You have many independent selves who share one physical body. Most of the time, it's understood that the biggest reason that can happen is from surviving extreme and prolonged trauma. Nobody Should Believe Me is written, hosted, and produced by me, Andrea Dunlop. Our senior producer and editor is Mariah Gosset. Greta Stromquist is our associate producer. Engineering by Robin Edgar, an administrative administrative support from Nola Karmush. Music provided by Jonny Nicholson and Joel Shupak, with additional music and sounds from Sound Snap. Thank you to Cadence 3 for additional recording support.

are still there, even if they don't make sense. For Joe, coming back to Hutchinson must feel like walking into a forest with a blindfold on.I was living with you as a teenager. So I know people were aware, and it's I still felt so alone and was alone in a lot of ways, some of it because I didn't have words to verbalize what was going on.I didn't have any idea what was all happening and stuff like that. So It makes sense, but it's just so confusing to hold both. I really did have a village. I really did have a lot of really, really, really good people, good, safe people in my life. And I was still in a really shitty situation. That was out of a lot of people's control.Kristen becomes very emotional listening to Joe say all of this.What are you thinking?I fully understand everything that you're saying. I totally get it, and it hurts. I hurt for a 17-year-old Joe. I hurt for a child. Joe that carried that. You never... We all fucking cause harm, all of us, especially when we're teenagers. We're growing, we're shitty. My teenagers, I love them, but they're shitty right now. We all do shit, and we all cause harm. And you didn't deserve any of the shit that you were going through. And none of that has None of that shit was on you. None of it. You weren't evil. You weren't doing anything. You were learning and growing and doing the best that you could with the tools that were in your box as we all were. And I think that 10 years makes a big difference in being able to recognize that and just the growth that has happened, I mean, psychologically. And it's incredible. It's incredibly enlightening.Just as Joe's first-grade teacher, Mrs. Becker, did, Kristen remembers Donna as taking great pains to present herself as a good mom. Kristen explains what happened at Joe's high school graduation party.She wanted it to look like she was doing so much for Joe when she didn't do anything. Like, literally, Joe arranged her entire graduation party. But I remember she was just very much wanting to be the mom that loves her daughter, wants everyone to know this is my Joe. And again, this is many years ago. But my overall impression was that she very much wanted an audience for her good parenting when she wasn't present as a parent, from what I could tell, because Joe is living with me. And didn't see her. She didn't come by and check on her to see how she was doing.The graduation party. I have pictures of us together at my grad party. So I reached out to my mom and said, Hey, I need all the pictures of me from when I was a kid so I can do something for my grad party. And my mom was like, You have to give these back. These are so important.Oh my God. Yeah, that's right. You better not ruin them. I still have them, all of them. I just have told her that I lost them or something, or I ignore the text. But for years, probably a good decade, she would randomly reach out and be like, Do you have those pictures? And I'd be like, I don't know what you're talking about. They're mine. That's literally me. I have to make a comment about that. So I got these big poster boards and put together all these pictures and got help because I had no idea what I was doing. I think at that time, I was still really involved with my church, even though later found out that that same church, people had been warning people about me and to stay away from me because I was a bad kid or something.Who's to say? But they did the performance. They made food for the grad party. I invited people. I was 17 and put together this whole thing as someone who was so sheltered my entire life. No idea what I was doing. But we got some people to make some food. My sister I just husband's mom made cupcakes. That's right. And then I reserved a space at a park or somehow. I literally don't know how any of demanding.During this time, Kristen was really up to her eyeballs in life stuff. A young mom in a troubled relationship struggling with her own eating disorder. And yet, she clocked what was going on between Joe and their mom was serious. There was something really dark simmering beneath the surface, but Kristen couldn't put her finger on it until later when Joe began to open up about the fact that they'd been a victim of Munchhasm by proxy abuse.I think just being connected through social media, I just followed Joe through their story on social media and kept up to date that way. And when they started coming to light with all of these things, it was like, it all made so much more sense. She made a lot more sense because it is that wanting attention demandingly. I don't know.Do you remember me ever being sick or having different physical issues, I guess, going on?In line with the eating disorder, yes. But other than that, no.Yeah, which actually that makes so much sense. I talk a lot about how I think once I left the home, I asked questions, and I'm not sure I would have had any memory of it because I don't think I really... I blocked I had pretty much everything out until 2016. So it's like, yeah, you could have asked all the right questions, and I still don't think I would have had the words or the language or any the understanding. I just knew that I was unwell.How does it feel to see how far Joe's since.Fucking glorious.The mystery of Joe's medical history is one they've spent years unraveling. And while we're in Hutchinson, we stop by a place that is easily as familiar to Joe as any of the houses they lived in with Donna, the hospital.I'm Dr. Kate McGinnis, and I'm I'm a family doctor in Hutchinson, Minnesota, and I've been here for 34 plus years. I took care of Joe when she was young, on and off.I remember Dr. Mcginnis being a really safe person. I remember just always feeling really safe, and I could tell her a lot of things. Obviously, I didn't know a lot of what was going on for me, but she was the first person that I ever told that I been purging to... I mean, she asked outright, Have you ever made yourself throw up? And I was like, Oh, my gosh, no one's ever asked me this before. I said yes, and then I know for a while, I saw her weekly to get weights and draw labs and just make sure that the eating disorder stuff wasn't causing too much physical damage until she helped me get into Melrose Center in the cities. What do you remember about... I know it was a while ago, but what do you remember about that time seeing Joe?Well, that I was worried about her and that I knew things weren't going well, and we did not have a lot of resources for eating disorders. It was just all coming out in the '90s.Yeah, I think my memory really once the eating disorder was more like full force. I didn't have many other health issues It was really the eating disorder. I don't think my mom came with to a lot of the appointments.Do you have any memory of meeting Joe's mom? Oh, yeah. What were your impressions of her?Well, I know that she was pretty dysfunctional and had a lot of issues. I think that was part of why you developed your eating disorder with some of her dysfunction, is my impression. But your grandma played into that, too. I think, too. What do you mean? Well, I think when I was looking at your chart last night, I looked at one note from Melrose, your initial evaluation, and they said something about your grandma said I told you to always suck in your gutter, you'd look fat. So I don't know if you have that memory, too.Oh, yeah. I do have that memory.So that's not really a healthy thing. I think that people should be saying to anybody. No. But I think there was plenty of issues to go around.Yeah. I remember that vividly. I was wearing my green and blue swimsuit, and I sat down, and then my grandma was like, stand up, stuck in your stomach before you sit down. Otherwise, you'll look fat. And that did stick with me for so much of my life. I would do exactly that because I thought that's what you're supposed to do. And then not long after that, I started weighing myself every day. Didn't understand weight at the time, but it just became like a- Remember how old you were? Probably around seven. Yeah. I have a picture of me in that little bathing suit. I was a very tiny kid. I needed more food to be eating. I was unhealthy. So then to be telling me that I should suck in my stomach because I'm looking a certain way or things like that. I mean, obviously all fat phobic and inappropriate regardless.This piece of Joe's story is unfortunately all too relatable, and I am certain I'm not the only one who was just transported back to some bad swimsuit moment from their own childhood. So yes, just a reminder to those who need it, don't make comments to kids about their bodies because an off-the-cuff remark can lodge itself in their spongy little brains forever. Don't do it to the fat kids. Don't do it to the skinny kids. Just don't. Okay? Don't. Much like their teacher, Mrs. Becker, Joe's doctors were deeply concerned about their well-being and tried to intervene.I know that Dr. Wilson said she was really worried about you and had documented in confidential files and turned you into social services.Dr. Wilson is a big part of Joe's story of discovery, and we'll be talking to her in the next episode. Joe found themselves in a predicament that many survivors encounter. By the time they discovered that nothing about their health history made any sense, the documentation that would have been able to illuminate it is long gone. When did you become aware that Joe had been suffering from this abuse?Hard to say. I mean, I'd have to go back and look at my notes, which I can't access because there are three computer systems ago, which is a problem with changing computer systems. But I would think that I had that in the back of my mind. When people have an issue, whether it's chronic ear infections or when chosen it's by proxy, depression, anxiety, whatever it is, it goes on your problem list, and you review that before you see every patient. So you But have, oh, these are the things they've had in the past.I had a long problems list. Yeah.But I mean, just to be aware of that. But like I said, I think I mostly saw you and we were focusing on what you said and weighing you in and talking about what all was going on and telling me to eat, trying to get you into treatment. Because at that time, I think Melrose Place was the only eating disorders option we had. I think, like I said, I was worried about you. I know things could have been good at home, but I don't think we talked a lot about exactly what was going on because that would be pretty classic of a child of an alcoholic.I told you, I think more than anyone, which says a lot, right? If you say, I didn't really say much. But I remember coming in to the appointments. I was always nervous because I always thought I was going to get in trouble or something. Not because you ever made me feel that way, but just because I knew that I wasn't eating or I was purging or doing things that were harmful. So I was always nervous about that. But at the same time, I liked coming in, I guess, every week.I liked that You were my support.You were that adult in my life or whatever. I'm sure that that played out with the struggles with the eating disorder, to keep me being able to come see you every week. And things like that because I be careful.I thought that just smelling food, the calories will seep into my skin. I was so struggling very, very deeply. But now, sometimes I'll be like, wow, it's weird that I'm just eating. But that's the most... It's just a slight thought where I'm like, whoa, this is different. But now I'm like, oh, I'm hungry. I need food. I think I don't really think much.That's such a positive thing because there are plenty of people who struggle their whole lives. So I just am so impressed with the progress you've made. I just want to reiterate how impressed I am, how far you've come, because people can go the other way and become more psychiatrically ill when they've had difficult childhoods. We'll call your childhood that. I think it's reasonable. And you've It just really, really turned yourself around and made such a positive impact on the world. I'm very impressed. So pat yourself on the back.Next time, we go down the medical records rabbit hole with Joe and talk about how the trauma they suffered impacted their young mind. I would say being a multiple is having one body that has has many selves in the mind. You have many independent selves who share one physical body. Most of the time, it's understood that the biggest reason that can happen is from surviving extreme and prolonged trauma. Nobody Should Believe Me is written, hosted, and produced by me, Andrea Dunlop. Our senior producer and editor is Mariah Gosset. Greta Stromquist is our associate producer. Engineering by Robin Edgar, an administrative administrative support from Nola Karmush. Music provided by Jonny Nicholson and Joel Shupak, with additional music and sounds from Sound Snap. Thank you to Cadence 3 for additional recording support.

I was living with you as a teenager. So I know people were aware, and it's I still felt so alone and was alone in a lot of ways, some of it because I didn't have words to verbalize what was going on.

I didn't have any idea what was all happening and stuff like that. So It makes sense, but it's just so confusing to hold both. I really did have a village. I really did have a lot of really, really, really good people, good, safe people in my life. And I was still in a really shitty situation. That was out of a lot of people's control.

Kristen becomes very emotional listening to Joe say all of this.

What are you thinking?

I fully understand everything that you're saying. I totally get it, and it hurts. I hurt for a 17-year-old Joe. I hurt for a child. Joe that carried that. You never... We all fucking cause harm, all of us, especially when we're teenagers. We're growing, we're shitty. My teenagers, I love them, but they're shitty right now. We all do shit, and we all cause harm. And you didn't deserve any of the shit that you were going through. And none of that has None of that shit was on you. None of it. You weren't evil. You weren't doing anything. You were learning and growing and doing the best that you could with the tools that were in your box as we all were. And I think that 10 years makes a big difference in being able to recognize that and just the growth that has happened, I mean, psychologically. And it's incredible. It's incredibly enlightening.

Just as Joe's first-grade teacher, Mrs. Becker, did, Kristen remembers Donna as taking great pains to present herself as a good mom. Kristen explains what happened at Joe's high school graduation party.

She wanted it to look like she was doing so much for Joe when she didn't do anything. Like, literally, Joe arranged her entire graduation party. But I remember she was just very much wanting to be the mom that loves her daughter, wants everyone to know this is my Joe. And again, this is many years ago. But my overall impression was that she very much wanted an audience for her good parenting when she wasn't present as a parent, from what I could tell, because Joe is living with me. And didn't see her. She didn't come by and check on her to see how she was doing.

The graduation party. I have pictures of us together at my grad party. So I reached out to my mom and said, Hey, I need all the pictures of me from when I was a kid so I can do something for my grad party. And my mom was like, You have to give these back. These are so important.Oh my God. Yeah, that's right. You better not ruin them. I still have them, all of them. I just have told her that I lost them or something, or I ignore the text. But for years, probably a good decade, she would randomly reach out and be like, Do you have those pictures? And I'd be like, I don't know what you're talking about. They're mine. That's literally me. I have to make a comment about that. So I got these big poster boards and put together all these pictures and got help because I had no idea what I was doing. I think at that time, I was still really involved with my church, even though later found out that that same church, people had been warning people about me and to stay away from me because I was a bad kid or something.

Who's to say? But they did the performance. They made food for the grad party. I invited people. I was 17 and put together this whole thing as someone who was so sheltered my entire life. No idea what I was doing. But we got some people to make some food. My sister I just husband's mom made cupcakes. That's right. And then I reserved a space at a park or somehow. I literally don't know how any of demanding.During this time, Kristen was really up to her eyeballs in life stuff. A young mom in a troubled relationship struggling with her own eating disorder. And yet, she clocked what was going on between Joe and their mom was serious. There was something really dark simmering beneath the surface, but Kristen couldn't put her finger on it until later when Joe began to open up about the fact that they'd been a victim of Munchhasm by proxy abuse.I think just being connected through social media, I just followed Joe through their story on social media and kept up to date that way. And when they started coming to light with all of these things, it was like, it all made so much more sense. She made a lot more sense because it is that wanting attention demandingly. I don't know.Do you remember me ever being sick or having different physical issues, I guess, going on?In line with the eating disorder, yes. But other than that, no.Yeah, which actually that makes so much sense. I talk a lot about how I think once I left the home, I asked questions, and I'm not sure I would have had any memory of it because I don't think I really... I blocked I had pretty much everything out until 2016. So it's like, yeah, you could have asked all the right questions, and I still don't think I would have had the words or the language or any the understanding. I just knew that I was unwell.How does it feel to see how far Joe's since.Fucking glorious.The mystery of Joe's medical history is one they've spent years unraveling. And while we're in Hutchinson, we stop by a place that is easily as familiar to Joe as any of the houses they lived in with Donna, the hospital.I'm Dr. Kate McGinnis, and I'm I'm a family doctor in Hutchinson, Minnesota, and I've been here for 34 plus years. I took care of Joe when she was young, on and off.I remember Dr. Mcginnis being a really safe person. I remember just always feeling really safe, and I could tell her a lot of things. Obviously, I didn't know a lot of what was going on for me, but she was the first person that I ever told that I been purging to... I mean, she asked outright, Have you ever made yourself throw up? And I was like, Oh, my gosh, no one's ever asked me this before. I said yes, and then I know for a while, I saw her weekly to get weights and draw labs and just make sure that the eating disorder stuff wasn't causing too much physical damage until she helped me get into Melrose Center in the cities. What do you remember about... I know it was a while ago, but what do you remember about that time seeing Joe?Well, that I was worried about her and that I knew things weren't going well, and we did not have a lot of resources for eating disorders. It was just all coming out in the '90s.Yeah, I think my memory really once the eating disorder was more like full force. I didn't have many other health issues It was really the eating disorder. I don't think my mom came with to a lot of the appointments.Do you have any memory of meeting Joe's mom? Oh, yeah. What were your impressions of her?Well, I know that she was pretty dysfunctional and had a lot of issues. I think that was part of why you developed your eating disorder with some of her dysfunction, is my impression. But your grandma played into that, too. I think, too. What do you mean? Well, I think when I was looking at your chart last night, I looked at one note from Melrose, your initial evaluation, and they said something about your grandma said I told you to always suck in your gutter, you'd look fat. So I don't know if you have that memory, too.Oh, yeah. I do have that memory.So that's not really a healthy thing. I think that people should be saying to anybody. No. But I think there was plenty of issues to go around.Yeah. I remember that vividly. I was wearing my green and blue swimsuit, and I sat down, and then my grandma was like, stand up, stuck in your stomach before you sit down. Otherwise, you'll look fat. And that did stick with me for so much of my life. I would do exactly that because I thought that's what you're supposed to do. And then not long after that, I started weighing myself every day. Didn't understand weight at the time, but it just became like a- Remember how old you were? Probably around seven. Yeah. I have a picture of me in that little bathing suit. I was a very tiny kid. I needed more food to be eating. I was unhealthy. So then to be telling me that I should suck in my stomach because I'm looking a certain way or things like that. I mean, obviously all fat phobic and inappropriate regardless.This piece of Joe's story is unfortunately all too relatable, and I am certain I'm not the only one who was just transported back to some bad swimsuit moment from their own childhood. So yes, just a reminder to those who need it, don't make comments to kids about their bodies because an off-the-cuff remark can lodge itself in their spongy little brains forever. Don't do it to the fat kids. Don't do it to the skinny kids. Just don't. Okay? Don't. Much like their teacher, Mrs. Becker, Joe's doctors were deeply concerned about their well-being and tried to intervene.I know that Dr. Wilson said she was really worried about you and had documented in confidential files and turned you into social services.Dr. Wilson is a big part of Joe's story of discovery, and we'll be talking to her in the next episode. Joe found themselves in a predicament that many survivors encounter. By the time they discovered that nothing about their health history made any sense, the documentation that would have been able to illuminate it is long gone. When did you become aware that Joe had been suffering from this abuse?Hard to say. I mean, I'd have to go back and look at my notes, which I can't access because there are three computer systems ago, which is a problem with changing computer systems. But I would think that I had that in the back of my mind. When people have an issue, whether it's chronic ear infections or when chosen it's by proxy, depression, anxiety, whatever it is, it goes on your problem list, and you review that before you see every patient. So you But have, oh, these are the things they've had in the past.I had a long problems list. Yeah.But I mean, just to be aware of that. But like I said, I think I mostly saw you and we were focusing on what you said and weighing you in and talking about what all was going on and telling me to eat, trying to get you into treatment. Because at that time, I think Melrose Place was the only eating disorders option we had. I think, like I said, I was worried about you. I know things could have been good at home, but I don't think we talked a lot about exactly what was going on because that would be pretty classic of a child of an alcoholic.I told you, I think more than anyone, which says a lot, right? If you say, I didn't really say much. But I remember coming in to the appointments. I was always nervous because I always thought I was going to get in trouble or something. Not because you ever made me feel that way, but just because I knew that I wasn't eating or I was purging or doing things that were harmful. So I was always nervous about that. But at the same time, I liked coming in, I guess, every week.I liked that You were my support.You were that adult in my life or whatever. I'm sure that that played out with the struggles with the eating disorder, to keep me being able to come see you every week. And things like that because I be careful.I thought that just smelling food, the calories will seep into my skin. I was so struggling very, very deeply. But now, sometimes I'll be like, wow, it's weird that I'm just eating. But that's the most... It's just a slight thought where I'm like, whoa, this is different. But now I'm like, oh, I'm hungry. I need food. I think I don't really think much.That's such a positive thing because there are plenty of people who struggle their whole lives. So I just am so impressed with the progress you've made. I just want to reiterate how impressed I am, how far you've come, because people can go the other way and become more psychiatrically ill when they've had difficult childhoods. We'll call your childhood that. I think it's reasonable. And you've It just really, really turned yourself around and made such a positive impact on the world. I'm very impressed. So pat yourself on the back.Next time, we go down the medical records rabbit hole with Joe and talk about how the trauma they suffered impacted their young mind. I would say being a multiple is having one body that has has many selves in the mind. You have many independent selves who share one physical body. Most of the time, it's understood that the biggest reason that can happen is from surviving extreme and prolonged trauma. Nobody Should Believe Me is written, hosted, and produced by me, Andrea Dunlop. Our senior producer and editor is Mariah Gosset. Greta Stromquist is our associate producer. Engineering by Robin Edgar, an administrative administrative support from Nola Karmush. Music provided by Jonny Nicholson and Joel Shupak, with additional music and sounds from Sound Snap. Thank you to Cadence 3 for additional recording support.

demanding.

During this time, Kristen was really up to her eyeballs in life stuff. A young mom in a troubled relationship struggling with her own eating disorder. And yet, she clocked what was going on between Joe and their mom was serious. There was something really dark simmering beneath the surface, but Kristen couldn't put her finger on it until later when Joe began to open up about the fact that they'd been a victim of Munchhasm by proxy abuse.

I think just being connected through social media, I just followed Joe through their story on social media and kept up to date that way. And when they started coming to light with all of these things, it was like, it all made so much more sense. She made a lot more sense because it is that wanting attention demandingly. I don't know.

Do you remember me ever being sick or having different physical issues, I guess, going on?

In line with the eating disorder, yes. But other than that, no.

Yeah, which actually that makes so much sense. I talk a lot about how I think once I left the home, I asked questions, and I'm not sure I would have had any memory of it because I don't think I really... I blocked I had pretty much everything out until 2016. So it's like, yeah, you could have asked all the right questions, and I still don't think I would have had the words or the language or any the understanding. I just knew that I was unwell.How does it feel to see how far Joe's since.Fucking glorious.The mystery of Joe's medical history is one they've spent years unraveling. And while we're in Hutchinson, we stop by a place that is easily as familiar to Joe as any of the houses they lived in with Donna, the hospital.I'm Dr. Kate McGinnis, and I'm I'm a family doctor in Hutchinson, Minnesota, and I've been here for 34 plus years. I took care of Joe when she was young, on and off.I remember Dr. Mcginnis being a really safe person. I remember just always feeling really safe, and I could tell her a lot of things. Obviously, I didn't know a lot of what was going on for me, but she was the first person that I ever told that I been purging to... I mean, she asked outright, Have you ever made yourself throw up? And I was like, Oh, my gosh, no one's ever asked me this before. I said yes, and then I know for a while, I saw her weekly to get weights and draw labs and just make sure that the eating disorder stuff wasn't causing too much physical damage until she helped me get into Melrose Center in the cities. What do you remember about... I know it was a while ago, but what do you remember about that time seeing Joe?Well, that I was worried about her and that I knew things weren't going well, and we did not have a lot of resources for eating disorders. It was just all coming out in the '90s.Yeah, I think my memory really once the eating disorder was more like full force. I didn't have many other health issues It was really the eating disorder. I don't think my mom came with to a lot of the appointments.Do you have any memory of meeting Joe's mom? Oh, yeah. What were your impressions of her?Well, I know that she was pretty dysfunctional and had a lot of issues. I think that was part of why you developed your eating disorder with some of her dysfunction, is my impression. But your grandma played into that, too. I think, too. What do you mean? Well, I think when I was looking at your chart last night, I looked at one note from Melrose, your initial evaluation, and they said something about your grandma said I told you to always suck in your gutter, you'd look fat. So I don't know if you have that memory, too.Oh, yeah. I do have that memory.So that's not really a healthy thing. I think that people should be saying to anybody. No. But I think there was plenty of issues to go around.Yeah. I remember that vividly. I was wearing my green and blue swimsuit, and I sat down, and then my grandma was like, stand up, stuck in your stomach before you sit down. Otherwise, you'll look fat. And that did stick with me for so much of my life. I would do exactly that because I thought that's what you're supposed to do. And then not long after that, I started weighing myself every day. Didn't understand weight at the time, but it just became like a- Remember how old you were? Probably around seven. Yeah. I have a picture of me in that little bathing suit. I was a very tiny kid. I needed more food to be eating. I was unhealthy. So then to be telling me that I should suck in my stomach because I'm looking a certain way or things like that. I mean, obviously all fat phobic and inappropriate regardless.This piece of Joe's story is unfortunately all too relatable, and I am certain I'm not the only one who was just transported back to some bad swimsuit moment from their own childhood. So yes, just a reminder to those who need it, don't make comments to kids about their bodies because an off-the-cuff remark can lodge itself in their spongy little brains forever. Don't do it to the fat kids. Don't do it to the skinny kids. Just don't. Okay? Don't. Much like their teacher, Mrs. Becker, Joe's doctors were deeply concerned about their well-being and tried to intervene.I know that Dr. Wilson said she was really worried about you and had documented in confidential files and turned you into social services.Dr. Wilson is a big part of Joe's story of discovery, and we'll be talking to her in the next episode. Joe found themselves in a predicament that many survivors encounter. By the time they discovered that nothing about their health history made any sense, the documentation that would have been able to illuminate it is long gone. When did you become aware that Joe had been suffering from this abuse?Hard to say. I mean, I'd have to go back and look at my notes, which I can't access because there are three computer systems ago, which is a problem with changing computer systems. But I would think that I had that in the back of my mind. When people have an issue, whether it's chronic ear infections or when chosen it's by proxy, depression, anxiety, whatever it is, it goes on your problem list, and you review that before you see every patient. So you But have, oh, these are the things they've had in the past.I had a long problems list. Yeah.But I mean, just to be aware of that. But like I said, I think I mostly saw you and we were focusing on what you said and weighing you in and talking about what all was going on and telling me to eat, trying to get you into treatment. Because at that time, I think Melrose Place was the only eating disorders option we had. I think, like I said, I was worried about you. I know things could have been good at home, but I don't think we talked a lot about exactly what was going on because that would be pretty classic of a child of an alcoholic.I told you, I think more than anyone, which says a lot, right? If you say, I didn't really say much. But I remember coming in to the appointments. I was always nervous because I always thought I was going to get in trouble or something. Not because you ever made me feel that way, but just because I knew that I wasn't eating or I was purging or doing things that were harmful. So I was always nervous about that. But at the same time, I liked coming in, I guess, every week.I liked that You were my support.You were that adult in my life or whatever. I'm sure that that played out with the struggles with the eating disorder, to keep me being able to come see you every week. And things like that because I be careful.I thought that just smelling food, the calories will seep into my skin. I was so struggling very, very deeply. But now, sometimes I'll be like, wow, it's weird that I'm just eating. But that's the most... It's just a slight thought where I'm like, whoa, this is different. But now I'm like, oh, I'm hungry. I need food. I think I don't really think much.That's such a positive thing because there are plenty of people who struggle their whole lives. So I just am so impressed with the progress you've made. I just want to reiterate how impressed I am, how far you've come, because people can go the other way and become more psychiatrically ill when they've had difficult childhoods. We'll call your childhood that. I think it's reasonable. And you've It just really, really turned yourself around and made such a positive impact on the world. I'm very impressed. So pat yourself on the back.Next time, we go down the medical records rabbit hole with Joe and talk about how the trauma they suffered impacted their young mind. I would say being a multiple is having one body that has has many selves in the mind. You have many independent selves who share one physical body. Most of the time, it's understood that the biggest reason that can happen is from surviving extreme and prolonged trauma. Nobody Should Believe Me is written, hosted, and produced by me, Andrea Dunlop. Our senior producer and editor is Mariah Gosset. Greta Stromquist is our associate producer. Engineering by Robin Edgar, an administrative administrative support from Nola Karmush. Music provided by Jonny Nicholson and Joel Shupak, with additional music and sounds from Sound Snap. Thank you to Cadence 3 for additional recording support.

asked questions, and I'm not sure I would have had any memory of it because I don't think I really... I blocked I had pretty much everything out until 2016. So it's like, yeah, you could have asked all the right questions, and I still don't think I would have had the words or the language or any the understanding. I just knew that I was unwell.

How does it feel to see how far Joe's since.

Fucking glorious.

The mystery of Joe's medical history is one they've spent years unraveling. And while we're in Hutchinson, we stop by a place that is easily as familiar to Joe as any of the houses they lived in with Donna, the hospital.

I'm Dr. Kate McGinnis, and I'm I'm a family doctor in Hutchinson, Minnesota, and I've been here for 34 plus years. I took care of Joe when she was young, on and off.

I remember Dr. Mcginnis being a really safe person. I remember just always feeling really safe, and I could tell her a lot of things. Obviously, I didn't know a lot of what was going on for me, but she was the first person that I ever told that I been purging to... I mean, she asked outright, Have you ever made yourself throw up? And I was like, Oh, my gosh, no one's ever asked me this before. I said yes, and then I know for a while, I saw her weekly to get weights and draw labs and just make sure that the eating disorder stuff wasn't causing too much physical damage until she helped me get into Melrose Center in the cities. What do you remember about... I know it was a while ago, but what do you remember about that time seeing Joe?

Well, that I was worried about her and that I knew things weren't going well, and we did not have a lot of resources for eating disorders. It was just all coming out in the '90s.

Yeah, I think my memory really once the eating disorder was more like full force. I didn't have many other health issues It was really the eating disorder. I don't think my mom came with to a lot of the appointments.

Do you have any memory of meeting Joe's mom? Oh, yeah. What were your impressions of her?

Well, I know that she was pretty dysfunctional and had a lot of issues. I think that was part of why you developed your eating disorder with some of her dysfunction, is my impression. But your grandma played into that, too. I think, too. What do you mean? Well, I think when I was looking at your chart last night, I looked at one note from Melrose, your initial evaluation, and they said something about your grandma said I told you to always suck in your gutter, you'd look fat. So I don't know if you have that memory, too.

Oh, yeah. I do have that memory.

So that's not really a healthy thing. I think that people should be saying to anybody. No. But I think there was plenty of issues to go around.

Yeah. I remember that vividly. I was wearing my green and blue swimsuit, and I sat down, and then my grandma was like, stand up, stuck in your stomach before you sit down. Otherwise, you'll look fat. And that did stick with me for so much of my life. I would do exactly that because I thought that's what you're supposed to do. And then not long after that, I started weighing myself every day. Didn't understand weight at the time, but it just became like a- Remember how old you were? Probably around seven. Yeah. I have a picture of me in that little bathing suit. I was a very tiny kid. I needed more food to be eating. I was unhealthy. So then to be telling me that I should suck in my stomach because I'm looking a certain way or things like that. I mean, obviously all fat phobic and inappropriate regardless.

This piece of Joe's story is unfortunately all too relatable, and I am certain I'm not the only one who was just transported back to some bad swimsuit moment from their own childhood. So yes, just a reminder to those who need it, don't make comments to kids about their bodies because an off-the-cuff remark can lodge itself in their spongy little brains forever. Don't do it to the fat kids. Don't do it to the skinny kids. Just don't. Okay? Don't. Much like their teacher, Mrs. Becker, Joe's doctors were deeply concerned about their well-being and tried to intervene.

I know that Dr. Wilson said she was really worried about you and had documented in confidential files and turned you into social services.

Dr. Wilson is a big part of Joe's story of discovery, and we'll be talking to her in the next episode. Joe found themselves in a predicament that many survivors encounter. By the time they discovered that nothing about their health history made any sense, the documentation that would have been able to illuminate it is long gone. When did you become aware that Joe had been suffering from this abuse?

Hard to say. I mean, I'd have to go back and look at my notes, which I can't access because there are three computer systems ago, which is a problem with changing computer systems. But I would think that I had that in the back of my mind. When people have an issue, whether it's chronic ear infections or when chosen it's by proxy, depression, anxiety, whatever it is, it goes on your problem list, and you review that before you see every patient. So you But have, oh, these are the things they've had in the past.

I had a long problems list. Yeah.

But I mean, just to be aware of that. But like I said, I think I mostly saw you and we were focusing on what you said and weighing you in and talking about what all was going on and telling me to eat, trying to get you into treatment. Because at that time, I think Melrose Place was the only eating disorders option we had. I think, like I said, I was worried about you. I know things could have been good at home, but I don't think we talked a lot about exactly what was going on because that would be pretty classic of a child of an alcoholic.

I told you, I think more than anyone, which says a lot, right? If you say, I didn't really say much. But I remember coming in to the appointments. I was always nervous because I always thought I was going to get in trouble or something. Not because you ever made me feel that way, but just because I knew that I wasn't eating or I was purging or doing things that were harmful. So I was always nervous about that. But at the same time, I liked coming in, I guess, every week.

I liked that You were my support.

You were that adult in my life or whatever. I'm sure that that played out with the struggles with the eating disorder, to keep me being able to come see you every week. And things like that because I be careful.I thought that just smelling food, the calories will seep into my skin. I was so struggling very, very deeply. But now, sometimes I'll be like, wow, it's weird that I'm just eating. But that's the most... It's just a slight thought where I'm like, whoa, this is different. But now I'm like, oh, I'm hungry. I need food. I think I don't really think much.That's such a positive thing because there are plenty of people who struggle their whole lives. So I just am so impressed with the progress you've made. I just want to reiterate how impressed I am, how far you've come, because people can go the other way and become more psychiatrically ill when they've had difficult childhoods. We'll call your childhood that. I think it's reasonable. And you've It just really, really turned yourself around and made such a positive impact on the world. I'm very impressed. So pat yourself on the back.Next time, we go down the medical records rabbit hole with Joe and talk about how the trauma they suffered impacted their young mind. I would say being a multiple is having one body that has has many selves in the mind. You have many independent selves who share one physical body. Most of the time, it's understood that the biggest reason that can happen is from surviving extreme and prolonged trauma. Nobody Should Believe Me is written, hosted, and produced by me, Andrea Dunlop. Our senior producer and editor is Mariah Gosset. Greta Stromquist is our associate producer. Engineering by Robin Edgar, an administrative administrative support from Nola Karmush. Music provided by Jonny Nicholson and Joel Shupak, with additional music and sounds from Sound Snap. Thank you to Cadence 3 for additional recording support.

be careful.

I thought that just smelling food, the calories will seep into my skin. I was so struggling very, very deeply. But now, sometimes I'll be like, wow, it's weird that I'm just eating. But that's the most... It's just a slight thought where I'm like, whoa, this is different. But now I'm like, oh, I'm hungry. I need food. I think I don't really think much.

That's such a positive thing because there are plenty of people who struggle their whole lives. So I just am so impressed with the progress you've made. I just want to reiterate how impressed I am, how far you've come, because people can go the other way and become more psychiatrically ill when they've had difficult childhoods. We'll call your childhood that. I think it's reasonable. And you've It just really, really turned yourself around and made such a positive impact on the world. I'm very impressed. So pat yourself on the back.

Next time, we go down the medical records rabbit hole with Joe and talk about how the trauma they suffered impacted their young mind. I would say being a multiple is having one body that has has many selves in the mind. You have many independent selves who share one physical body. Most of the time, it's understood that the biggest reason that can happen is from surviving extreme and prolonged trauma. Nobody Should Believe Me is written, hosted, and produced by me, Andrea Dunlop. Our senior producer and editor is Mariah Gosset. Greta Stromquist is our associate producer. Engineering by Robin Edgar, an administrative administrative support from Nola Karmush. Music provided by Jonny Nicholson and Joel Shupak, with additional music and sounds from Sound Snap. Thank you to Cadence 3 for additional recording support.