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One third of our lives is potentially spent dreaming. Your waking life is feeding your dream life. That's a solar flare from your brain in a unique state that you can't get to during the day.

Dual trained brain surgeon and neuroscientist, doctor Raul Jandial.

The measurements of emotion in our dreaming brain can reach a top speed our waking brain can never reach. How are you processing? How are you metabolizing the most difficult thing in your day?

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Hey, everyone. Welcome back to on Purpose, the number one health podcast in the world. Thanks to each and every one of you that come back every week to listen, learn and grow. I'm so excited because we've really been tapping here at on purpose into things you're fascinated about, questions that you're thinking about, topics you're exploring, themes that you're wondering about. And this was one of those that I can't wait to share with actually positive. So those patterns of dreams are there. The brain electricity is firing while we sleep, and that's the sort of foundation from which I try to find meaning in dreaming.Absolutely. I mean, the book is called, this is why you dream. Why do we dream? And why is it important for us to understand why we dream? Because I think a lot of people say, yeah, I dream sometimes. Sometimes I don't. Who cares? What's the big deal? But I'm fascinated by it. I know a lot of people are. So why do we dream? And why is it important to try to understand why we dream?It's not a big deal. It's completely off for those people who think it. If they understand. One third of our lives is potentially spent dreaming and the brain shuts down. Right. It's just one third. Like, that can't be passive, and it puts you down. Right? Get sleep pressure. Like you, I gotta sleep. Well, when I was in training and surgical training, we skip a night of sleep. What happens when somebody skips a night of sleep? The next night they dream harder and earlier. If I can be so bold, I think sleep is for the brain. It's not for our thigh muscle, it's not for our liver. There are some metabolic changes. I'm not discounting all of it. But the real thing driving us to sleep is our brain. What does our brain do just vibrantly when we sleep? It's dream. So that's like my straight up answer about, like, that thing that's not happening on accident, right? That's not a glitch that didn't last through 30,000 generations accidentally. And so then the question becomes, if we have this vibrant one third of our lives that we partially remember. Sometimes remember. Sometimes it's an exciting journey, sometimes an erotic journey, sometimes it's a nightmare.Like, what's that all about? You know? And the way I've come to understand it is first giving respect to people who've tried to come up with some ideas. Like, it's a threat rehearsal. If we're running from a wooly mammoth and our dreams we're better prepared for during the day, what I would say is maybe. And when I say maybe, you're likely. It's out of respect for you and your listeners. I don't want to be that guy that comes in here says yes no about something as big and magical as dreaming. So threat rehearsal. Maybe. Some people think it's a nocturnal therapist because towards the morning, when we have more of our vivid dreams, the emotional balance, the valence, they call it, tends to be more positive. Maybe. I like to think of it as something that sparks creativity because of what happens with the dreaming brain. The dreaming brain looks for looser dots to connect. It's imaginative by design. Logic is dampened down. So I think it's our creativity engine. And then the way I put it all together is with something straight up called use it or lose it that people know about when we talk about the brain, right?They say, hey, use it or lose it. We know if we don't use our biceps, they atrophy. But our day, if you look at the brain activation, electricity is so narrow. The brain wants to be efficient, right? Because it's an energy hog. It's only like four or five pounds, but it uses 20% of our blood. So the brain during the day to navigate the world, task on outward executive network. Logic wants to be efficient, driving down the 101 easily, going on the tube easily, not have to activate everything to get that done. If we only use those limited parts of our brain during the day and didn't have some way to high intensity train them, those would go derelict, we wouldn't use them and we may lose them. So I think in the biggest way possible is that dreaming process, dreams. And dreaming is high intensity training for our map the surface of their brain. You don't feel. You wouldn't know if I touched your brain, if the situation ever rose, which won't. But, like the brain doesn't feel, the brain feels through its nerves. So we can dissect the brain in somebody while they're talking. The point there is it's nothing is not to scare anybody. That's a therapeutic process. But when we tickle and map the brain, they'll say, oh, I remember this nightmare from when I was a kid. But you can activate a recurrent nightmare in a patient by tickling the surface of their brain. So dreams come from the brain? There are recurrent dreams. There are. That's individual. There are common dreams across people falling, being chased, teeth falling out. There are universal dreams. So you'd start to see all these patterns. A recurrent dream is a loop of electricity in that part of your brain that pops up again and again.It must be, because if we take a little faint pen and tickle it and you have that dream again, that's built into the electrical flows of your brain. So we have to step back a little bit when you ask those questions, because there are so many different dream types and dream experiences. I don't want to give a single answer. But recurrent dreams are loops of electricity that happen over and over again. We can actually activate that. And then universal dreams, common dreams and rare dreams is how I conceptualize it.What does someone do if they have a recurrent dream that they don't want to have anymore?Big question. Okay, so let's look at that. So now we got the foundation. Waking brain, dreaming brain, hyper imaginative, hyper emotional. You're cooking up. You're creating the events of your dreamscape. And I found this to be very powerful, that nightmares, since we imagined them, the treatment for nightmares is something called imagery rehearsal therapy. Now, I'm not a therapist. I mean, I take care of a lot of cancer patients. I'm more than 10,000 in my life. So there's a cultivation that I have benefited from them trusting me. So I think I have some sense of understanding of human nature. But. But therapy, when you try to help somebody through conversation, talk therapy, right? That's great. It seems to be effective. That's out there. What they're finding is imagery rehearsal therapy is a new thing where imagine what you want to be, imagine something you don't want to have. And when I read that, I was like, I don't know, if I can sink my teeth in that. Until I started reading about nightmares and learning about nightmares and across all different sciences, that if you practice before you go to bed, going back a bit to your saying that we can actually feed our dreams, if you practice a new script for the ending of your nightmares, you can rescript your nightmares through something called imagery rehearsal therapy.People can look it up, and not every time, not for everyone, but just the fact that nightmares can be rescripted is powerful. That you think you're out of control, but you can feed your dreams, you can steer your dreams, and lucid dreaming is the prime example of that. And that therapy can guide you to a better conclusion in your dream. I love It's a conversation. I think it's fresh. And I looked at a bunch of pieces that, that helped me sort of come up with an idea, a story, if you will.So if you look at the first thing about nightmares that struck me is you have to say, hey, Johnny, that was only a nightmare. It's only with nightmares that we tell our kids that's only a nightmare. So as a conversation, does that mean Johnny was blurring, dreaming brain thoughts and waking brain thoughts until that moment? So that's, that's a power. I don't, I'm not saying I have the answer, I'm just, I'm leaving that with your audience. That's one. Nightmares do that. By definition, nightmares wake you up and they sear your memory. Okay? Just like our kids learn to walk and talk, our mind is being cultivated. So they had these families that signed all the kids up to be woken up and talk about their dreams for like 20 years in a row. They're called longitudinal kids. When they start talking, their dreams are like a table, you know, a sweater. Then they get more imaginative and what happens is 567 nightmares arrive. What else is arriving. They're developing visual spatial skills, and they're also developing this thing called theory of mind. People can look up these terms that children at some point develop, the ability to look at somebody and say, that smile, I don't think they mean well, mind reading, reading, the other person's intention.Right. That arrives theory of mind at the same time as nightmares. So my biggest way to conceptualize that is nightmares arrive in children to help them develop a sense of self versus other, help them not a sense of identity, but that my from the book, which I think are so interesting for people. I want to talk to you about before we get into lucid dreaming, I want to talk to you a bit about how dreams can predict the future. And I think a lot of people worry that their dreams, their thoughts can create reality subconsciously. Somewhere. We feel that, like, I know people who have illnesses or, like, I manifested this, like, I made this happen, or like, I have a disease and, oh, my God, I saw this coming. Or, you know, that kind of feeling.Warning dreams.Yeah, warning dreams. And that almost feels a bit worrying as well, because. Because often when you have that warning, you're now constantly replaying it and thinking about it while you're awake and while you're asleep. Can dreams predict the future, especially when.It comes to health in one specific way? Dreams can absolutely predict the future of your health. And we'll get into that. That's Parkinson's. But in general, for cancer, for other diseases, it's hard to tease out whether my patients had the diagnosis and then sort of reverse thought. Like, I think I had a dream about that. I'm not judging them. I'm totally open minded, but I can't. I can't grip the data on that. But if you do have a dream about disease, statistically, you're not more likely to have that disease. They've been looking at these surveys, so it might just reveal a certain anxiety you're having. Again, symbolic. You might be struggling with something and then have a disease based dream. So as long as we remember that, most of the time, they're symbolic and not literal, I think that's important. There are plenty of reports and surveys where breast cancer patients are said, like, I had a dream, I felt a lump in these sort of things. I respect that. I respect their whole journey. So I want to put that out there, the one specific way that dreams can predict the future. I need to unpack this one for a little bit, because this was mind blowing when I.When I learned about it. There's something called rem behavior disorder, which I'm relabeling. Dream enactment behavior. Yeah. My world.Thank you, Ron. Thank you so much.My world. The words are, they confuse, you know, dream enactment behavior. Middle aged men, fifties, acting out their dream, usually protecting their bed partner. They come in the bed partner, maybe has an injury. Those men, 94% of the time, and that's essentially in medicine, it's universal. 15 years later, will develop Parkinson's, I think, you know. So that is the one example, and it's. If it's the only example for every neuroscientist out there, every scientist out there hear me with this, that the. The first warning flare of the brain's deterioration with Parkinson's is a change in dreams 15 years ago. I'll just leave it at that for all the rigorous people out actually lucid dreaming. Everything before that was a survey like, yeah, I did it and I'm lucid dreaming more. I believe people. But, you know, I like that extra bit of proof. So the mild technique is proven with the left, right, left, right Morse code technique that clearly shows you are asleep based on your brain electricity and you are using eye patterns so much.So this is a banger. They started doing a little bit of mathematic two plus two, and they'd have code. And somebody says to me, I think I was in Paris. And I said, wait a second. You said the dreaming brain doesn't do math. I said, yeah, but I also showed you the brain scans that show a bit of awareness and has come back, as does the bit of ability to do math. So I love seeing those pieces come in consistently.That's brilliant. Raul, from all your research, you've done tons of research, tons of reading, looking at studies. I feel one of the biggest things that I'm taking away from this is often the questions we're asking about our dreams are the wrong questions. We're asking, like, what does this mean? Is this, you know, is this real? Like, you know, what should I do with this? What would you say are the best questions we should ask when we've woken up after dreaming? What should we be looking for? Point us in the right direction, because I feel maybe we're wasting time and energy and effort in a different direction.So I would say when. I'll tell you my approach again, that's a massive topic you've just asked of me is one, there are dreams that clearly reflect your waking anxiety. Showing up late, alarm doesn't go off, showing up naked at a podium because you're worried about public speaking. So some don't require you to spend too much time on them. Number two, there are universal dreams, nightmares and erotic dreams. We've talked about that a little bit. Number three, there are dreams that just static, you know, let's not hold dreaming thought and emotions to what we wouldn't waking thought. There's a lot of stuff. We do them today we don't even hold on to. Right. Similarly, fourth are genre dreams, pregnancy dreams. Massive lifetime events are happening. Massive lifetime events are happening in your dreaming. That's consistent. The ones that I would say to people are to focus on are the ones that are hyper hyper emotional, and they linger into the next day. You can try to cultivate it with the morning technique. We talked about a slower rise, not switching to email and Instagram too quickly. But the hyper emotional dream is one to reflect upon.Here's why. The emotional systems of your brain, called limbic structures and the brain has the reptilian brain inside our throat, sort of back there. That's instinct. Makes you take a breath when you're underwater above it developed the emotional brain, much like what my dog has. You know, they have intuition, they have instinct through and actually step aside for a little bit and say, hey, what was that? Solar flare from my mind. And if it's useful to you, great. If the process helps you remember those more, great. But if you just have that 510 minutes during your morning where you just remember that you were not resting the night before, there was something wild and vibrant going on and you got a glimpse of it, what it means is up to you, but definitely don't neglect it.Well said. Doctor Raul John Dal the book is called, this is why you dream. If you don't have your copy already, make sure you grab it. We dove into some of the themes, some of the topics. There's so much more inside this book that I believe you're going to love and appreciate so that you can dream better, dream bigger and dream more beautifully as well, which is what I wish for each and every one of you. Raul, is there anything that I haven't asked you that you want to share is on your heart and mind intuitively that you believe is important for our community?I think there's too much judgment going on in the ways that people approach life. And some people think they've got it all figured out. And some people on the other end saying, I got nothing figured out. And I got to tell you listeners, I've been in that entire range. And I would say a couple of things. I would say, I think the dreaming brain and mind is a genius built in. That gives us resilience. And resilience. I want to leave people with a brand new definition of it, a psychological definition, that there's systemic resilience and processive resilience. Systemic resilience is what you bring to the fight, and processive resilience is what the fight brings out in you. So, wherever you're at, you're equipped with your dreaming brain as your ally. And I think, to me, that gives me a source of strength, that there's this process cultivating me, protecting me, preparing me for the next day. That's on one side, that's like. That's Rahul speaking emotionally right? On the other side, when you sit here and you say, this brain surgeon's trying to rock this stuff about the brain and mind and all that, I'll leave you with something I did not know.In neuroscience, right? I got a lab. I got a PhD in neuroscience. I'm a brain surgeon. You start to think you're, like, the expert at it, but there are things in exploring dreams and dreaming that I was surprised. Like, how did I not know that? Because it would have changed all the ways I would have acted through my life. I would have been more open, more exploratory, more willing to accept other people's experiences, because it doesn't all have to make sense, even to the uber expert. So I leave people with something to search online called paradoxical kinesis. P a r a d o x I c a l. Kinesis, it's called. We can't explain why you move that way. That's my. That's my street translation for that medical term. But what it is is those same patients that have dream enactment behavior. They care, act out their dreams, and later on, their Parkinson's develops and their brains wither. The strangest thing is when the Parkinson's sets in and their voices are stifled and their movements are rigid, when they act out their dreams, their voices are big and their movements are fluid. The dreaming mind somehow can access the body in a better way, in a more fluid way, in a more in tune way than the waking mind can.And that. That's what I like to leave people with. Like, I'm excited about this. I hope you guys are, too.So, Raul, you talk about how naps lasting 60 to 90 minutes can boost learning and creative problem solving by 40%. Why is this? And when's the best time to take a nap?The napping thing is big these days, and people are finding it's not work harder, work longer and all that, but try to work with the different states of mind and brain that you have, and napping, if you get to 60 or 90 minutes, people have done surveys and asked people to nap with puzzles, and they find entering the dream state or the sleeping state, which again, as we've talked about, is imaginative, is divergent thinking that they solve problems better, they have more solutions to riddles. And the big point there for people is there's a utility to napping. You're not lazy because you nap. And if you can do it in a way that doesn't disrupt your sleep later on in the day, I think that's another, in the world of hacks. I think that's the hack that we've got all got built in.Can you dream in that 60 to 90 minutes?Yeah.And have those dreams shown to be any different?I can't answer that. There isn't data on. Have those shown dreams shown to be any different? But I would say one condition is narcolepsy, where people fall asleep suddenly and there's information coming out from them. They suddenly fall asleep, and then they wake up and they enter a dream state. But that's a whole space that's opening up the utility of naps. And it doesn't have to be every day, it doesn't have to be rigid. And if you have a big event or a big project coming up, I think personally what I've tried is just shutting your eyes in a quiet space and allowing that mental workspace, allowing yourself not to be tasked on and drift inwards in your thoughts, whether you actually fall technically asleep or not. To me, that's been advantageous.Yes, absolutely. I agree with that. And I know many athletes who do that as well. Before a big game or before a big performance, you're not necessarily falling asleep, but I like, you're an off mode. Definitely. And also, last question I want to ask you was the question that Elena mentioned. So a lot of people, when they're in sleep entry, they feel like they're falling. Why does that exist? Why do people have that experience?I don't know if I have an answer for that, and I've seen the reports, but I couldn't tie any signs to that. But sleep entry, falling asleep is a time where activation of. Of the movement centers is pronounced and falling is actually a movement. It's not. You think, oh, running is a movement, falling, something that happens to you? No, but the activation of the brain, when people fall has to do with the motor strip as well, motor sensory. So during that transition, there may be a link there.Yeah. It's even interesting language, like falling asleep. Like, I guess you're falling onto your bed, but the idea of falling is just.I don't know, I like entering.Yeah, I find language really fascinating. And when I look at, like, falling to sleep, I'm like, that doesn't make any sense to me. Beyond falling onto a bed, which doesn't necessarily create a restful, peaceful feeling.Take that back 2000 years. And we memorize it by heart. And that's when we thought the heart was the center. So absolutely language shapes the direction of our mind. I mean, the power of words and people are finding handwriting is. It activates more part of the brains than typing. And so definitely the communication and storytelling and building meaning. There's something there. I'll explore that, hopefully, in the years ahead.Yeah, I think sleep entry and exit is brilliant. Language, though, that has really stayed with me. And it's making me think even more intentionally and insightfully around those intimate moments just before waking up. Especially those two to twelve minutes that you said before you go to bed and after you wake up. Because evening and morning routines make sense. But there's an even more special time there that could be managed.Yeah. That morning time, for me, sleep exit is definitely something I put to use. A lot of the ideas in this book. I'd read something, I'd be flipping through a bunch of papers. I'm like, what does this mean? What does it mean? And then it would be in the morning. I'd maybe that. Maybe that. Not a guarantee, but definitely a space to explore.Yeah. Amazing, Raul. So we end every episode of On Purpose with a fast five final fight. These are questions that have to be answered in one word to one sentence maximum. And these are your final five. So the first question is, what is the best dreaming advice you've ever heard or received?Try to remember them more.Okay. Second question. What is the worst dreaming advice you've ever heard or received?Dreams are meaningless.Question number three. A dream you wish you'd have more often.Falling in love the first time.Question number four. A dream that you wish people would have more often.Reconciliation dreams, dreams of forgiveness, dreams of letting go.And are those ones that we can train ourselves to have?I don't know, but those are the ones that some people report toward the end of life. And I just wonder if we had that more in the middle of our life, we would have less regrets and we'd be less encumbered by the fuss of the day.Why do you. Why? Is there any study to show why people are having it later on in life?No. Wow, that's. Yeah. And I can tell you that from my own experience with cancer patients. They're called genre dreams, end of life dreams. And again, our last act might be a massive dream and it tends to be positive, not always for near death experiences. To me, I call that a dreaming. Coming to our rescue.Yeah. Could you imagine? You're so right. If you could have that earlier on.Like, all that beef, all that fuss, you know, it's a great answer, you know, I just. I wish I could have let it go earlier.Yeah. Fifth and final question. We asked this to every guest who's ever been on the show. If you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be?Before you speak or act, do your best to imagine yourself in that person's shoes.Great answer. Doctor Ral Jandial. The book is called this is why you dream. Thank you so much for joining us today. If you don't already, make sure you follow Doctor Rahul Jandial on Instagram, Instagram across social media. Grab a copy of the book, we'll put the link in the comments and the caption section. And I'm so grateful for your time and energy today. I've learned so much. You've completely transformed my way of thinking about dreams. Honestly, through your book and this interview, I think I knew nothing about dreams before we met. I had really poor ideas and maybe some limited beliefs. And speaking to you today has just opened up a whole new area of growth for me that I don't even think I was thinking about. So I love the idea that I'm walking away with some simple yet clear tools to actually start implementing from tonight and tomorrow. So I'm really excited about this dream journey and I hope everyone who's listening and watching when you read the book, I hope you're going to go on a dream journey with me too. And I'd love to see you tag me and Doctor Raul in some of the experiments, some of the tests that you're carrying out in your own life.Thank you so much.Pleasure.Thank you so much for listening to this conversation. If you enjoyed it, you'll love my chat with Adam Grant on why discomfort is the key to growth and the strategies for unlocking your hidden potential. If you know you want to be more and achieve more this year, go check it out right now.You set a goal today, you achieve it in six months. And then by the time it happens, it's almost a relief. There's no sense of meaning. A you sort of expected it and you would have been disappointed if it didn't happen.Get emotional with me, Radhi Devlukia, in my new podcast, a really good cry. We're gonna be talking with some of my best friends.I didn't know we were gonna go there on this.People that I admire, when we say, listen to your body, really tune into what's going on. Authors of books that have changed my life.Now you're talking about sympathy, which is different than empathy, right?Never forget, it's okay to cry as long as you make it a really good one. Listen to a really good cry with Radhi Dvlukia on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.Something that makes me crazy is when people say, well, I had this career before, but it was a waste. 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actually positive. So those patterns of dreams are there. The brain electricity is firing while we sleep, and that's the sort of foundation from which I try to find meaning in dreaming.

Absolutely. I mean, the book is called, this is why you dream. Why do we dream? And why is it important for us to understand why we dream? Because I think a lot of people say, yeah, I dream sometimes. Sometimes I don't. Who cares? What's the big deal? But I'm fascinated by it. I know a lot of people are. So why do we dream? And why is it important to try to understand why we dream?

It's not a big deal. It's completely off for those people who think it. If they understand. One third of our lives is potentially spent dreaming and the brain shuts down. Right. It's just one third. Like, that can't be passive, and it puts you down. Right? Get sleep pressure. Like you, I gotta sleep. Well, when I was in training and surgical training, we skip a night of sleep. What happens when somebody skips a night of sleep? The next night they dream harder and earlier. If I can be so bold, I think sleep is for the brain. It's not for our thigh muscle, it's not for our liver. There are some metabolic changes. I'm not discounting all of it. But the real thing driving us to sleep is our brain. What does our brain do just vibrantly when we sleep? It's dream. So that's like my straight up answer about, like, that thing that's not happening on accident, right? That's not a glitch that didn't last through 30,000 generations accidentally. And so then the question becomes, if we have this vibrant one third of our lives that we partially remember. Sometimes remember. Sometimes it's an exciting journey, sometimes an erotic journey, sometimes it's a nightmare.

Like, what's that all about? You know? And the way I've come to understand it is first giving respect to people who've tried to come up with some ideas. Like, it's a threat rehearsal. If we're running from a wooly mammoth and our dreams we're better prepared for during the day, what I would say is maybe. And when I say maybe, you're likely. It's out of respect for you and your listeners. I don't want to be that guy that comes in here says yes no about something as big and magical as dreaming. So threat rehearsal. Maybe. Some people think it's a nocturnal therapist because towards the morning, when we have more of our vivid dreams, the emotional balance, the valence, they call it, tends to be more positive. Maybe. I like to think of it as something that sparks creativity because of what happens with the dreaming brain. The dreaming brain looks for looser dots to connect. It's imaginative by design. Logic is dampened down. So I think it's our creativity engine. And then the way I put it all together is with something straight up called use it or lose it that people know about when we talk about the brain, right?

They say, hey, use it or lose it. We know if we don't use our biceps, they atrophy. But our day, if you look at the brain activation, electricity is so narrow. The brain wants to be efficient, right? Because it's an energy hog. It's only like four or five pounds, but it uses 20% of our blood. So the brain during the day to navigate the world, task on outward executive network. Logic wants to be efficient, driving down the 101 easily, going on the tube easily, not have to activate everything to get that done. If we only use those limited parts of our brain during the day and didn't have some way to high intensity train them, those would go derelict, we wouldn't use them and we may lose them. So I think in the biggest way possible is that dreaming process, dreams. And dreaming is high intensity training for our map the surface of their brain. You don't feel. You wouldn't know if I touched your brain, if the situation ever rose, which won't. But, like the brain doesn't feel, the brain feels through its nerves. So we can dissect the brain in somebody while they're talking. The point there is it's nothing is not to scare anybody. That's a therapeutic process. But when we tickle and map the brain, they'll say, oh, I remember this nightmare from when I was a kid. But you can activate a recurrent nightmare in a patient by tickling the surface of their brain. So dreams come from the brain? There are recurrent dreams. There are. That's individual. There are common dreams across people falling, being chased, teeth falling out. There are universal dreams. So you'd start to see all these patterns. A recurrent dream is a loop of electricity in that part of your brain that pops up again and again.It must be, because if we take a little faint pen and tickle it and you have that dream again, that's built into the electrical flows of your brain. So we have to step back a little bit when you ask those questions, because there are so many different dream types and dream experiences. I don't want to give a single answer. But recurrent dreams are loops of electricity that happen over and over again. We can actually activate that. And then universal dreams, common dreams and rare dreams is how I conceptualize it.What does someone do if they have a recurrent dream that they don't want to have anymore?Big question. Okay, so let's look at that. So now we got the foundation. Waking brain, dreaming brain, hyper imaginative, hyper emotional. You're cooking up. You're creating the events of your dreamscape. And I found this to be very powerful, that nightmares, since we imagined them, the treatment for nightmares is something called imagery rehearsal therapy. Now, I'm not a therapist. I mean, I take care of a lot of cancer patients. I'm more than 10,000 in my life. So there's a cultivation that I have benefited from them trusting me. So I think I have some sense of understanding of human nature. But. But therapy, when you try to help somebody through conversation, talk therapy, right? That's great. It seems to be effective. That's out there. What they're finding is imagery rehearsal therapy is a new thing where imagine what you want to be, imagine something you don't want to have. And when I read that, I was like, I don't know, if I can sink my teeth in that. Until I started reading about nightmares and learning about nightmares and across all different sciences, that if you practice before you go to bed, going back a bit to your saying that we can actually feed our dreams, if you practice a new script for the ending of your nightmares, you can rescript your nightmares through something called imagery rehearsal therapy.People can look it up, and not every time, not for everyone, but just the fact that nightmares can be rescripted is powerful. That you think you're out of control, but you can feed your dreams, you can steer your dreams, and lucid dreaming is the prime example of that. And that therapy can guide you to a better conclusion in your dream. I love It's a conversation. I think it's fresh. And I looked at a bunch of pieces that, that helped me sort of come up with an idea, a story, if you will.So if you look at the first thing about nightmares that struck me is you have to say, hey, Johnny, that was only a nightmare. It's only with nightmares that we tell our kids that's only a nightmare. So as a conversation, does that mean Johnny was blurring, dreaming brain thoughts and waking brain thoughts until that moment? So that's, that's a power. I don't, I'm not saying I have the answer, I'm just, I'm leaving that with your audience. That's one. Nightmares do that. By definition, nightmares wake you up and they sear your memory. Okay? Just like our kids learn to walk and talk, our mind is being cultivated. So they had these families that signed all the kids up to be woken up and talk about their dreams for like 20 years in a row. They're called longitudinal kids. When they start talking, their dreams are like a table, you know, a sweater. Then they get more imaginative and what happens is 567 nightmares arrive. What else is arriving. They're developing visual spatial skills, and they're also developing this thing called theory of mind. People can look up these terms that children at some point develop, the ability to look at somebody and say, that smile, I don't think they mean well, mind reading, reading, the other person's intention.Right. That arrives theory of mind at the same time as nightmares. So my biggest way to conceptualize that is nightmares arrive in children to help them develop a sense of self versus other, help them not a sense of identity, but that my from the book, which I think are so interesting for people. I want to talk to you about before we get into lucid dreaming, I want to talk to you a bit about how dreams can predict the future. And I think a lot of people worry that their dreams, their thoughts can create reality subconsciously. Somewhere. We feel that, like, I know people who have illnesses or, like, I manifested this, like, I made this happen, or like, I have a disease and, oh, my God, I saw this coming. Or, you know, that kind of feeling.Warning dreams.Yeah, warning dreams. And that almost feels a bit worrying as well, because. Because often when you have that warning, you're now constantly replaying it and thinking about it while you're awake and while you're asleep. Can dreams predict the future, especially when.It comes to health in one specific way? Dreams can absolutely predict the future of your health. And we'll get into that. That's Parkinson's. But in general, for cancer, for other diseases, it's hard to tease out whether my patients had the diagnosis and then sort of reverse thought. Like, I think I had a dream about that. I'm not judging them. I'm totally open minded, but I can't. I can't grip the data on that. But if you do have a dream about disease, statistically, you're not more likely to have that disease. They've been looking at these surveys, so it might just reveal a certain anxiety you're having. Again, symbolic. You might be struggling with something and then have a disease based dream. So as long as we remember that, most of the time, they're symbolic and not literal, I think that's important. There are plenty of reports and surveys where breast cancer patients are said, like, I had a dream, I felt a lump in these sort of things. I respect that. I respect their whole journey. So I want to put that out there, the one specific way that dreams can predict the future. I need to unpack this one for a little bit, because this was mind blowing when I.When I learned about it. There's something called rem behavior disorder, which I'm relabeling. Dream enactment behavior. Yeah. My world.Thank you, Ron. Thank you so much.My world. The words are, they confuse, you know, dream enactment behavior. Middle aged men, fifties, acting out their dream, usually protecting their bed partner. They come in the bed partner, maybe has an injury. Those men, 94% of the time, and that's essentially in medicine, it's universal. 15 years later, will develop Parkinson's, I think, you know. So that is the one example, and it's. If it's the only example for every neuroscientist out there, every scientist out there hear me with this, that the. The first warning flare of the brain's deterioration with Parkinson's is a change in dreams 15 years ago. I'll just leave it at that for all the rigorous people out actually lucid dreaming. Everything before that was a survey like, yeah, I did it and I'm lucid dreaming more. I believe people. But, you know, I like that extra bit of proof. So the mild technique is proven with the left, right, left, right Morse code technique that clearly shows you are asleep based on your brain electricity and you are using eye patterns so much.So this is a banger. They started doing a little bit of mathematic two plus two, and they'd have code. And somebody says to me, I think I was in Paris. And I said, wait a second. You said the dreaming brain doesn't do math. I said, yeah, but I also showed you the brain scans that show a bit of awareness and has come back, as does the bit of ability to do math. So I love seeing those pieces come in consistently.That's brilliant. Raul, from all your research, you've done tons of research, tons of reading, looking at studies. I feel one of the biggest things that I'm taking away from this is often the questions we're asking about our dreams are the wrong questions. We're asking, like, what does this mean? Is this, you know, is this real? Like, you know, what should I do with this? What would you say are the best questions we should ask when we've woken up after dreaming? What should we be looking for? Point us in the right direction, because I feel maybe we're wasting time and energy and effort in a different direction.So I would say when. I'll tell you my approach again, that's a massive topic you've just asked of me is one, there are dreams that clearly reflect your waking anxiety. Showing up late, alarm doesn't go off, showing up naked at a podium because you're worried about public speaking. So some don't require you to spend too much time on them. Number two, there are universal dreams, nightmares and erotic dreams. We've talked about that a little bit. Number three, there are dreams that just static, you know, let's not hold dreaming thought and emotions to what we wouldn't waking thought. There's a lot of stuff. We do them today we don't even hold on to. Right. Similarly, fourth are genre dreams, pregnancy dreams. Massive lifetime events are happening. Massive lifetime events are happening in your dreaming. That's consistent. The ones that I would say to people are to focus on are the ones that are hyper hyper emotional, and they linger into the next day. You can try to cultivate it with the morning technique. We talked about a slower rise, not switching to email and Instagram too quickly. But the hyper emotional dream is one to reflect upon.Here's why. The emotional systems of your brain, called limbic structures and the brain has the reptilian brain inside our throat, sort of back there. That's instinct. Makes you take a breath when you're underwater above it developed the emotional brain, much like what my dog has. You know, they have intuition, they have instinct through and actually step aside for a little bit and say, hey, what was that? Solar flare from my mind. And if it's useful to you, great. If the process helps you remember those more, great. But if you just have that 510 minutes during your morning where you just remember that you were not resting the night before, there was something wild and vibrant going on and you got a glimpse of it, what it means is up to you, but definitely don't neglect it.Well said. Doctor Raul John Dal the book is called, this is why you dream. If you don't have your copy already, make sure you grab it. We dove into some of the themes, some of the topics. There's so much more inside this book that I believe you're going to love and appreciate so that you can dream better, dream bigger and dream more beautifully as well, which is what I wish for each and every one of you. Raul, is there anything that I haven't asked you that you want to share is on your heart and mind intuitively that you believe is important for our community?I think there's too much judgment going on in the ways that people approach life. And some people think they've got it all figured out. And some people on the other end saying, I got nothing figured out. And I got to tell you listeners, I've been in that entire range. And I would say a couple of things. I would say, I think the dreaming brain and mind is a genius built in. That gives us resilience. And resilience. I want to leave people with a brand new definition of it, a psychological definition, that there's systemic resilience and processive resilience. Systemic resilience is what you bring to the fight, and processive resilience is what the fight brings out in you. So, wherever you're at, you're equipped with your dreaming brain as your ally. And I think, to me, that gives me a source of strength, that there's this process cultivating me, protecting me, preparing me for the next day. That's on one side, that's like. That's Rahul speaking emotionally right? On the other side, when you sit here and you say, this brain surgeon's trying to rock this stuff about the brain and mind and all that, I'll leave you with something I did not know.In neuroscience, right? I got a lab. I got a PhD in neuroscience. I'm a brain surgeon. You start to think you're, like, the expert at it, but there are things in exploring dreams and dreaming that I was surprised. Like, how did I not know that? Because it would have changed all the ways I would have acted through my life. I would have been more open, more exploratory, more willing to accept other people's experiences, because it doesn't all have to make sense, even to the uber expert. So I leave people with something to search online called paradoxical kinesis. P a r a d o x I c a l. Kinesis, it's called. We can't explain why you move that way. That's my. That's my street translation for that medical term. But what it is is those same patients that have dream enactment behavior. They care, act out their dreams, and later on, their Parkinson's develops and their brains wither. The strangest thing is when the Parkinson's sets in and their voices are stifled and their movements are rigid, when they act out their dreams, their voices are big and their movements are fluid. The dreaming mind somehow can access the body in a better way, in a more fluid way, in a more in tune way than the waking mind can.And that. That's what I like to leave people with. Like, I'm excited about this. I hope you guys are, too.So, Raul, you talk about how naps lasting 60 to 90 minutes can boost learning and creative problem solving by 40%. Why is this? And when's the best time to take a nap?The napping thing is big these days, and people are finding it's not work harder, work longer and all that, but try to work with the different states of mind and brain that you have, and napping, if you get to 60 or 90 minutes, people have done surveys and asked people to nap with puzzles, and they find entering the dream state or the sleeping state, which again, as we've talked about, is imaginative, is divergent thinking that they solve problems better, they have more solutions to riddles. And the big point there for people is there's a utility to napping. You're not lazy because you nap. And if you can do it in a way that doesn't disrupt your sleep later on in the day, I think that's another, in the world of hacks. I think that's the hack that we've got all got built in.Can you dream in that 60 to 90 minutes?Yeah.And have those dreams shown to be any different?I can't answer that. There isn't data on. Have those shown dreams shown to be any different? But I would say one condition is narcolepsy, where people fall asleep suddenly and there's information coming out from them. They suddenly fall asleep, and then they wake up and they enter a dream state. But that's a whole space that's opening up the utility of naps. And it doesn't have to be every day, it doesn't have to be rigid. And if you have a big event or a big project coming up, I think personally what I've tried is just shutting your eyes in a quiet space and allowing that mental workspace, allowing yourself not to be tasked on and drift inwards in your thoughts, whether you actually fall technically asleep or not. To me, that's been advantageous.Yes, absolutely. I agree with that. And I know many athletes who do that as well. Before a big game or before a big performance, you're not necessarily falling asleep, but I like, you're an off mode. Definitely. And also, last question I want to ask you was the question that Elena mentioned. So a lot of people, when they're in sleep entry, they feel like they're falling. Why does that exist? Why do people have that experience?I don't know if I have an answer for that, and I've seen the reports, but I couldn't tie any signs to that. But sleep entry, falling asleep is a time where activation of. Of the movement centers is pronounced and falling is actually a movement. It's not. You think, oh, running is a movement, falling, something that happens to you? No, but the activation of the brain, when people fall has to do with the motor strip as well, motor sensory. So during that transition, there may be a link there.Yeah. It's even interesting language, like falling asleep. Like, I guess you're falling onto your bed, but the idea of falling is just.I don't know, I like entering.Yeah, I find language really fascinating. And when I look at, like, falling to sleep, I'm like, that doesn't make any sense to me. Beyond falling onto a bed, which doesn't necessarily create a restful, peaceful feeling.Take that back 2000 years. And we memorize it by heart. And that's when we thought the heart was the center. So absolutely language shapes the direction of our mind. I mean, the power of words and people are finding handwriting is. It activates more part of the brains than typing. And so definitely the communication and storytelling and building meaning. There's something there. I'll explore that, hopefully, in the years ahead.Yeah, I think sleep entry and exit is brilliant. Language, though, that has really stayed with me. And it's making me think even more intentionally and insightfully around those intimate moments just before waking up. Especially those two to twelve minutes that you said before you go to bed and after you wake up. Because evening and morning routines make sense. But there's an even more special time there that could be managed.Yeah. That morning time, for me, sleep exit is definitely something I put to use. A lot of the ideas in this book. I'd read something, I'd be flipping through a bunch of papers. I'm like, what does this mean? What does it mean? And then it would be in the morning. I'd maybe that. Maybe that. Not a guarantee, but definitely a space to explore.Yeah. Amazing, Raul. So we end every episode of On Purpose with a fast five final fight. These are questions that have to be answered in one word to one sentence maximum. And these are your final five. So the first question is, what is the best dreaming advice you've ever heard or received?Try to remember them more.Okay. Second question. What is the worst dreaming advice you've ever heard or received?Dreams are meaningless.Question number three. A dream you wish you'd have more often.Falling in love the first time.Question number four. A dream that you wish people would have more often.Reconciliation dreams, dreams of forgiveness, dreams of letting go.And are those ones that we can train ourselves to have?I don't know, but those are the ones that some people report toward the end of life. And I just wonder if we had that more in the middle of our life, we would have less regrets and we'd be less encumbered by the fuss of the day.Why do you. Why? Is there any study to show why people are having it later on in life?No. Wow, that's. Yeah. And I can tell you that from my own experience with cancer patients. They're called genre dreams, end of life dreams. And again, our last act might be a massive dream and it tends to be positive, not always for near death experiences. To me, I call that a dreaming. Coming to our rescue.Yeah. Could you imagine? You're so right. If you could have that earlier on.Like, all that beef, all that fuss, you know, it's a great answer, you know, I just. I wish I could have let it go earlier.Yeah. Fifth and final question. We asked this to every guest who's ever been on the show. If you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be?Before you speak or act, do your best to imagine yourself in that person's shoes.Great answer. Doctor Ral Jandial. The book is called this is why you dream. Thank you so much for joining us today. If you don't already, make sure you follow Doctor Rahul Jandial on Instagram, Instagram across social media. Grab a copy of the book, we'll put the link in the comments and the caption section. And I'm so grateful for your time and energy today. I've learned so much. You've completely transformed my way of thinking about dreams. Honestly, through your book and this interview, I think I knew nothing about dreams before we met. I had really poor ideas and maybe some limited beliefs. And speaking to you today has just opened up a whole new area of growth for me that I don't even think I was thinking about. So I love the idea that I'm walking away with some simple yet clear tools to actually start implementing from tonight and tomorrow. So I'm really excited about this dream journey and I hope everyone who's listening and watching when you read the book, I hope you're going to go on a dream journey with me too. And I'd love to see you tag me and Doctor Raul in some of the experiments, some of the tests that you're carrying out in your own life.Thank you so much.Pleasure.Thank you so much for listening to this conversation. If you enjoyed it, you'll love my chat with Adam Grant on why discomfort is the key to growth and the strategies for unlocking your hidden potential. If you know you want to be more and achieve more this year, go check it out right now.You set a goal today, you achieve it in six months. And then by the time it happens, it's almost a relief. There's no sense of meaning. A you sort of expected it and you would have been disappointed if it didn't happen.Get emotional with me, Radhi Devlukia, in my new podcast, a really good cry. We're gonna be talking with some of my best friends.I didn't know we were gonna go there on this.People that I admire, when we say, listen to your body, really tune into what's going on. Authors of books that have changed my life.Now you're talking about sympathy, which is different than empathy, right?Never forget, it's okay to cry as long as you make it a really good one. Listen to a really good cry with Radhi Dvlukia on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.Something that makes me crazy is when people say, well, I had this career before, but it was a waste. And that's where the perspective shift comes, that it's not a waste, that everything you've done has built you to where you are now. 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map the surface of their brain. You don't feel. You wouldn't know if I touched your brain, if the situation ever rose, which won't. But, like the brain doesn't feel, the brain feels through its nerves. So we can dissect the brain in somebody while they're talking. The point there is it's nothing is not to scare anybody. That's a therapeutic process. But when we tickle and map the brain, they'll say, oh, I remember this nightmare from when I was a kid. But you can activate a recurrent nightmare in a patient by tickling the surface of their brain. So dreams come from the brain? There are recurrent dreams. There are. That's individual. There are common dreams across people falling, being chased, teeth falling out. There are universal dreams. So you'd start to see all these patterns. A recurrent dream is a loop of electricity in that part of your brain that pops up again and again.

It must be, because if we take a little faint pen and tickle it and you have that dream again, that's built into the electrical flows of your brain. So we have to step back a little bit when you ask those questions, because there are so many different dream types and dream experiences. I don't want to give a single answer. But recurrent dreams are loops of electricity that happen over and over again. We can actually activate that. And then universal dreams, common dreams and rare dreams is how I conceptualize it.

What does someone do if they have a recurrent dream that they don't want to have anymore?

Big question. Okay, so let's look at that. So now we got the foundation. Waking brain, dreaming brain, hyper imaginative, hyper emotional. You're cooking up. You're creating the events of your dreamscape. And I found this to be very powerful, that nightmares, since we imagined them, the treatment for nightmares is something called imagery rehearsal therapy. Now, I'm not a therapist. I mean, I take care of a lot of cancer patients. I'm more than 10,000 in my life. So there's a cultivation that I have benefited from them trusting me. So I think I have some sense of understanding of human nature. But. But therapy, when you try to help somebody through conversation, talk therapy, right? That's great. It seems to be effective. That's out there. What they're finding is imagery rehearsal therapy is a new thing where imagine what you want to be, imagine something you don't want to have. And when I read that, I was like, I don't know, if I can sink my teeth in that. Until I started reading about nightmares and learning about nightmares and across all different sciences, that if you practice before you go to bed, going back a bit to your saying that we can actually feed our dreams, if you practice a new script for the ending of your nightmares, you can rescript your nightmares through something called imagery rehearsal therapy.

People can look it up, and not every time, not for everyone, but just the fact that nightmares can be rescripted is powerful. That you think you're out of control, but you can feed your dreams, you can steer your dreams, and lucid dreaming is the prime example of that. And that therapy can guide you to a better conclusion in your dream. I love It's a conversation. I think it's fresh. And I looked at a bunch of pieces that, that helped me sort of come up with an idea, a story, if you will.So if you look at the first thing about nightmares that struck me is you have to say, hey, Johnny, that was only a nightmare. It's only with nightmares that we tell our kids that's only a nightmare. So as a conversation, does that mean Johnny was blurring, dreaming brain thoughts and waking brain thoughts until that moment? So that's, that's a power. I don't, I'm not saying I have the answer, I'm just, I'm leaving that with your audience. That's one. Nightmares do that. By definition, nightmares wake you up and they sear your memory. Okay? Just like our kids learn to walk and talk, our mind is being cultivated. So they had these families that signed all the kids up to be woken up and talk about their dreams for like 20 years in a row. They're called longitudinal kids. When they start talking, their dreams are like a table, you know, a sweater. Then they get more imaginative and what happens is 567 nightmares arrive. What else is arriving. They're developing visual spatial skills, and they're also developing this thing called theory of mind. People can look up these terms that children at some point develop, the ability to look at somebody and say, that smile, I don't think they mean well, mind reading, reading, the other person's intention.Right. That arrives theory of mind at the same time as nightmares. So my biggest way to conceptualize that is nightmares arrive in children to help them develop a sense of self versus other, help them not a sense of identity, but that my from the book, which I think are so interesting for people. I want to talk to you about before we get into lucid dreaming, I want to talk to you a bit about how dreams can predict the future. And I think a lot of people worry that their dreams, their thoughts can create reality subconsciously. Somewhere. We feel that, like, I know people who have illnesses or, like, I manifested this, like, I made this happen, or like, I have a disease and, oh, my God, I saw this coming. Or, you know, that kind of feeling.Warning dreams.Yeah, warning dreams. And that almost feels a bit worrying as well, because. Because often when you have that warning, you're now constantly replaying it and thinking about it while you're awake and while you're asleep. Can dreams predict the future, especially when.It comes to health in one specific way? Dreams can absolutely predict the future of your health. And we'll get into that. That's Parkinson's. But in general, for cancer, for other diseases, it's hard to tease out whether my patients had the diagnosis and then sort of reverse thought. Like, I think I had a dream about that. I'm not judging them. I'm totally open minded, but I can't. I can't grip the data on that. But if you do have a dream about disease, statistically, you're not more likely to have that disease. They've been looking at these surveys, so it might just reveal a certain anxiety you're having. Again, symbolic. You might be struggling with something and then have a disease based dream. So as long as we remember that, most of the time, they're symbolic and not literal, I think that's important. There are plenty of reports and surveys where breast cancer patients are said, like, I had a dream, I felt a lump in these sort of things. I respect that. I respect their whole journey. So I want to put that out there, the one specific way that dreams can predict the future. I need to unpack this one for a little bit, because this was mind blowing when I.When I learned about it. There's something called rem behavior disorder, which I'm relabeling. Dream enactment behavior. Yeah. My world.Thank you, Ron. Thank you so much.My world. The words are, they confuse, you know, dream enactment behavior. Middle aged men, fifties, acting out their dream, usually protecting their bed partner. They come in the bed partner, maybe has an injury. Those men, 94% of the time, and that's essentially in medicine, it's universal. 15 years later, will develop Parkinson's, I think, you know. So that is the one example, and it's. If it's the only example for every neuroscientist out there, every scientist out there hear me with this, that the. The first warning flare of the brain's deterioration with Parkinson's is a change in dreams 15 years ago. I'll just leave it at that for all the rigorous people out actually lucid dreaming. Everything before that was a survey like, yeah, I did it and I'm lucid dreaming more. I believe people. But, you know, I like that extra bit of proof. So the mild technique is proven with the left, right, left, right Morse code technique that clearly shows you are asleep based on your brain electricity and you are using eye patterns so much.So this is a banger. They started doing a little bit of mathematic two plus two, and they'd have code. And somebody says to me, I think I was in Paris. And I said, wait a second. You said the dreaming brain doesn't do math. I said, yeah, but I also showed you the brain scans that show a bit of awareness and has come back, as does the bit of ability to do math. So I love seeing those pieces come in consistently.That's brilliant. Raul, from all your research, you've done tons of research, tons of reading, looking at studies. I feel one of the biggest things that I'm taking away from this is often the questions we're asking about our dreams are the wrong questions. We're asking, like, what does this mean? Is this, you know, is this real? Like, you know, what should I do with this? What would you say are the best questions we should ask when we've woken up after dreaming? What should we be looking for? Point us in the right direction, because I feel maybe we're wasting time and energy and effort in a different direction.So I would say when. I'll tell you my approach again, that's a massive topic you've just asked of me is one, there are dreams that clearly reflect your waking anxiety. Showing up late, alarm doesn't go off, showing up naked at a podium because you're worried about public speaking. So some don't require you to spend too much time on them. Number two, there are universal dreams, nightmares and erotic dreams. We've talked about that a little bit. Number three, there are dreams that just static, you know, let's not hold dreaming thought and emotions to what we wouldn't waking thought. There's a lot of stuff. We do them today we don't even hold on to. Right. Similarly, fourth are genre dreams, pregnancy dreams. Massive lifetime events are happening. Massive lifetime events are happening in your dreaming. That's consistent. The ones that I would say to people are to focus on are the ones that are hyper hyper emotional, and they linger into the next day. You can try to cultivate it with the morning technique. We talked about a slower rise, not switching to email and Instagram too quickly. But the hyper emotional dream is one to reflect upon.Here's why. The emotional systems of your brain, called limbic structures and the brain has the reptilian brain inside our throat, sort of back there. That's instinct. Makes you take a breath when you're underwater above it developed the emotional brain, much like what my dog has. You know, they have intuition, they have instinct through and actually step aside for a little bit and say, hey, what was that? Solar flare from my mind. And if it's useful to you, great. If the process helps you remember those more, great. But if you just have that 510 minutes during your morning where you just remember that you were not resting the night before, there was something wild and vibrant going on and you got a glimpse of it, what it means is up to you, but definitely don't neglect it.Well said. Doctor Raul John Dal the book is called, this is why you dream. If you don't have your copy already, make sure you grab it. We dove into some of the themes, some of the topics. There's so much more inside this book that I believe you're going to love and appreciate so that you can dream better, dream bigger and dream more beautifully as well, which is what I wish for each and every one of you. Raul, is there anything that I haven't asked you that you want to share is on your heart and mind intuitively that you believe is important for our community?I think there's too much judgment going on in the ways that people approach life. And some people think they've got it all figured out. And some people on the other end saying, I got nothing figured out. And I got to tell you listeners, I've been in that entire range. And I would say a couple of things. I would say, I think the dreaming brain and mind is a genius built in. That gives us resilience. And resilience. I want to leave people with a brand new definition of it, a psychological definition, that there's systemic resilience and processive resilience. Systemic resilience is what you bring to the fight, and processive resilience is what the fight brings out in you. So, wherever you're at, you're equipped with your dreaming brain as your ally. And I think, to me, that gives me a source of strength, that there's this process cultivating me, protecting me, preparing me for the next day. That's on one side, that's like. That's Rahul speaking emotionally right? On the other side, when you sit here and you say, this brain surgeon's trying to rock this stuff about the brain and mind and all that, I'll leave you with something I did not know.In neuroscience, right? I got a lab. I got a PhD in neuroscience. I'm a brain surgeon. You start to think you're, like, the expert at it, but there are things in exploring dreams and dreaming that I was surprised. Like, how did I not know that? Because it would have changed all the ways I would have acted through my life. I would have been more open, more exploratory, more willing to accept other people's experiences, because it doesn't all have to make sense, even to the uber expert. So I leave people with something to search online called paradoxical kinesis. P a r a d o x I c a l. Kinesis, it's called. We can't explain why you move that way. That's my. That's my street translation for that medical term. But what it is is those same patients that have dream enactment behavior. They care, act out their dreams, and later on, their Parkinson's develops and their brains wither. The strangest thing is when the Parkinson's sets in and their voices are stifled and their movements are rigid, when they act out their dreams, their voices are big and their movements are fluid. The dreaming mind somehow can access the body in a better way, in a more fluid way, in a more in tune way than the waking mind can.And that. That's what I like to leave people with. Like, I'm excited about this. I hope you guys are, too.So, Raul, you talk about how naps lasting 60 to 90 minutes can boost learning and creative problem solving by 40%. Why is this? And when's the best time to take a nap?The napping thing is big these days, and people are finding it's not work harder, work longer and all that, but try to work with the different states of mind and brain that you have, and napping, if you get to 60 or 90 minutes, people have done surveys and asked people to nap with puzzles, and they find entering the dream state or the sleeping state, which again, as we've talked about, is imaginative, is divergent thinking that they solve problems better, they have more solutions to riddles. And the big point there for people is there's a utility to napping. You're not lazy because you nap. And if you can do it in a way that doesn't disrupt your sleep later on in the day, I think that's another, in the world of hacks. I think that's the hack that we've got all got built in.Can you dream in that 60 to 90 minutes?Yeah.And have those dreams shown to be any different?I can't answer that. There isn't data on. Have those shown dreams shown to be any different? But I would say one condition is narcolepsy, where people fall asleep suddenly and there's information coming out from them. They suddenly fall asleep, and then they wake up and they enter a dream state. But that's a whole space that's opening up the utility of naps. And it doesn't have to be every day, it doesn't have to be rigid. And if you have a big event or a big project coming up, I think personally what I've tried is just shutting your eyes in a quiet space and allowing that mental workspace, allowing yourself not to be tasked on and drift inwards in your thoughts, whether you actually fall technically asleep or not. To me, that's been advantageous.Yes, absolutely. I agree with that. And I know many athletes who do that as well. Before a big game or before a big performance, you're not necessarily falling asleep, but I like, you're an off mode. Definitely. And also, last question I want to ask you was the question that Elena mentioned. So a lot of people, when they're in sleep entry, they feel like they're falling. Why does that exist? Why do people have that experience?I don't know if I have an answer for that, and I've seen the reports, but I couldn't tie any signs to that. But sleep entry, falling asleep is a time where activation of. Of the movement centers is pronounced and falling is actually a movement. It's not. You think, oh, running is a movement, falling, something that happens to you? No, but the activation of the brain, when people fall has to do with the motor strip as well, motor sensory. So during that transition, there may be a link there.Yeah. It's even interesting language, like falling asleep. Like, I guess you're falling onto your bed, but the idea of falling is just.I don't know, I like entering.Yeah, I find language really fascinating. And when I look at, like, falling to sleep, I'm like, that doesn't make any sense to me. Beyond falling onto a bed, which doesn't necessarily create a restful, peaceful feeling.Take that back 2000 years. And we memorize it by heart. And that's when we thought the heart was the center. So absolutely language shapes the direction of our mind. I mean, the power of words and people are finding handwriting is. It activates more part of the brains than typing. And so definitely the communication and storytelling and building meaning. There's something there. I'll explore that, hopefully, in the years ahead.Yeah, I think sleep entry and exit is brilliant. Language, though, that has really stayed with me. And it's making me think even more intentionally and insightfully around those intimate moments just before waking up. Especially those two to twelve minutes that you said before you go to bed and after you wake up. Because evening and morning routines make sense. But there's an even more special time there that could be managed.Yeah. That morning time, for me, sleep exit is definitely something I put to use. A lot of the ideas in this book. I'd read something, I'd be flipping through a bunch of papers. I'm like, what does this mean? What does it mean? And then it would be in the morning. I'd maybe that. Maybe that. Not a guarantee, but definitely a space to explore.Yeah. Amazing, Raul. So we end every episode of On Purpose with a fast five final fight. These are questions that have to be answered in one word to one sentence maximum. And these are your final five. So the first question is, what is the best dreaming advice you've ever heard or received?Try to remember them more.Okay. Second question. What is the worst dreaming advice you've ever heard or received?Dreams are meaningless.Question number three. A dream you wish you'd have more often.Falling in love the first time.Question number four. A dream that you wish people would have more often.Reconciliation dreams, dreams of forgiveness, dreams of letting go.And are those ones that we can train ourselves to have?I don't know, but those are the ones that some people report toward the end of life. And I just wonder if we had that more in the middle of our life, we would have less regrets and we'd be less encumbered by the fuss of the day.Why do you. Why? Is there any study to show why people are having it later on in life?No. Wow, that's. Yeah. And I can tell you that from my own experience with cancer patients. They're called genre dreams, end of life dreams. And again, our last act might be a massive dream and it tends to be positive, not always for near death experiences. To me, I call that a dreaming. Coming to our rescue.Yeah. Could you imagine? You're so right. If you could have that earlier on.Like, all that beef, all that fuss, you know, it's a great answer, you know, I just. I wish I could have let it go earlier.Yeah. Fifth and final question. We asked this to every guest who's ever been on the show. If you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be?Before you speak or act, do your best to imagine yourself in that person's shoes.Great answer. Doctor Ral Jandial. The book is called this is why you dream. Thank you so much for joining us today. If you don't already, make sure you follow Doctor Rahul Jandial on Instagram, Instagram across social media. Grab a copy of the book, we'll put the link in the comments and the caption section. And I'm so grateful for your time and energy today. I've learned so much. You've completely transformed my way of thinking about dreams. Honestly, through your book and this interview, I think I knew nothing about dreams before we met. I had really poor ideas and maybe some limited beliefs. And speaking to you today has just opened up a whole new area of growth for me that I don't even think I was thinking about. So I love the idea that I'm walking away with some simple yet clear tools to actually start implementing from tonight and tomorrow. So I'm really excited about this dream journey and I hope everyone who's listening and watching when you read the book, I hope you're going to go on a dream journey with me too. And I'd love to see you tag me and Doctor Raul in some of the experiments, some of the tests that you're carrying out in your own life.Thank you so much.Pleasure.Thank you so much for listening to this conversation. If you enjoyed it, you'll love my chat with Adam Grant on why discomfort is the key to growth and the strategies for unlocking your hidden potential. If you know you want to be more and achieve more this year, go check it out right now.You set a goal today, you achieve it in six months. And then by the time it happens, it's almost a relief. There's no sense of meaning. A you sort of expected it and you would have been disappointed if it didn't happen.Get emotional with me, Radhi Devlukia, in my new podcast, a really good cry. We're gonna be talking with some of my best friends.I didn't know we were gonna go there on this.People that I admire, when we say, listen to your body, really tune into what's going on. Authors of books that have changed my life.Now you're talking about sympathy, which is different than empathy, right?Never forget, it's okay to cry as long as you make it a really good one. Listen to a really good cry with Radhi Dvlukia on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.Something that makes me crazy is when people say, well, I had this career before, but it was a waste. And that's where the perspective shift comes, that it's not a waste, that everything you've done has built you to where you are now. This is she pivots, the podcast where we explore the inspiring pivots women have made and dig deeper into the personal reasons behind them. Join me, Emily Tisch Sussman. Every Wednesday on she pivots. Listen to she pivots on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On his new podcast, six degrees with Kevin Bacon. Join Kevin for inspiring conversations with his friends and fellow celebrities who are working to make a difference in the world, like actor Mark Ruffalo.You know, I found myself moving upstate.In the middle of this fracking know.And I'm trying to raise kids there, and my neighbor's, like, willing to poison my water.Listen to six degrees with Kevin Bacon on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

It's a conversation. I think it's fresh. And I looked at a bunch of pieces that, that helped me sort of come up with an idea, a story, if you will.

So if you look at the first thing about nightmares that struck me is you have to say, hey, Johnny, that was only a nightmare. It's only with nightmares that we tell our kids that's only a nightmare. So as a conversation, does that mean Johnny was blurring, dreaming brain thoughts and waking brain thoughts until that moment? So that's, that's a power. I don't, I'm not saying I have the answer, I'm just, I'm leaving that with your audience. That's one. Nightmares do that. By definition, nightmares wake you up and they sear your memory. Okay? Just like our kids learn to walk and talk, our mind is being cultivated. So they had these families that signed all the kids up to be woken up and talk about their dreams for like 20 years in a row. They're called longitudinal kids. When they start talking, their dreams are like a table, you know, a sweater. Then they get more imaginative and what happens is 567 nightmares arrive. What else is arriving. They're developing visual spatial skills, and they're also developing this thing called theory of mind. People can look up these terms that children at some point develop, the ability to look at somebody and say, that smile, I don't think they mean well, mind reading, reading, the other person's intention.

Right. That arrives theory of mind at the same time as nightmares. So my biggest way to conceptualize that is nightmares arrive in children to help them develop a sense of self versus other, help them not a sense of identity, but that my from the book, which I think are so interesting for people. I want to talk to you about before we get into lucid dreaming, I want to talk to you a bit about how dreams can predict the future. And I think a lot of people worry that their dreams, their thoughts can create reality subconsciously. Somewhere. We feel that, like, I know people who have illnesses or, like, I manifested this, like, I made this happen, or like, I have a disease and, oh, my God, I saw this coming. Or, you know, that kind of feeling.Warning dreams.Yeah, warning dreams. And that almost feels a bit worrying as well, because. Because often when you have that warning, you're now constantly replaying it and thinking about it while you're awake and while you're asleep. Can dreams predict the future, especially when.It comes to health in one specific way? Dreams can absolutely predict the future of your health. And we'll get into that. That's Parkinson's. But in general, for cancer, for other diseases, it's hard to tease out whether my patients had the diagnosis and then sort of reverse thought. Like, I think I had a dream about that. I'm not judging them. I'm totally open minded, but I can't. I can't grip the data on that. But if you do have a dream about disease, statistically, you're not more likely to have that disease. They've been looking at these surveys, so it might just reveal a certain anxiety you're having. Again, symbolic. You might be struggling with something and then have a disease based dream. So as long as we remember that, most of the time, they're symbolic and not literal, I think that's important. There are plenty of reports and surveys where breast cancer patients are said, like, I had a dream, I felt a lump in these sort of things. I respect that. I respect their whole journey. So I want to put that out there, the one specific way that dreams can predict the future. I need to unpack this one for a little bit, because this was mind blowing when I.When I learned about it. There's something called rem behavior disorder, which I'm relabeling. Dream enactment behavior. Yeah. My world.Thank you, Ron. Thank you so much.My world. The words are, they confuse, you know, dream enactment behavior. Middle aged men, fifties, acting out their dream, usually protecting their bed partner. They come in the bed partner, maybe has an injury. Those men, 94% of the time, and that's essentially in medicine, it's universal. 15 years later, will develop Parkinson's, I think, you know. So that is the one example, and it's. If it's the only example for every neuroscientist out there, every scientist out there hear me with this, that the. The first warning flare of the brain's deterioration with Parkinson's is a change in dreams 15 years ago. I'll just leave it at that for all the rigorous people out actually lucid dreaming. Everything before that was a survey like, yeah, I did it and I'm lucid dreaming more. I believe people. But, you know, I like that extra bit of proof. So the mild technique is proven with the left, right, left, right Morse code technique that clearly shows you are asleep based on your brain electricity and you are using eye patterns so much.So this is a banger. They started doing a little bit of mathematic two plus two, and they'd have code. And somebody says to me, I think I was in Paris. And I said, wait a second. You said the dreaming brain doesn't do math. I said, yeah, but I also showed you the brain scans that show a bit of awareness and has come back, as does the bit of ability to do math. So I love seeing those pieces come in consistently.That's brilliant. Raul, from all your research, you've done tons of research, tons of reading, looking at studies. I feel one of the biggest things that I'm taking away from this is often the questions we're asking about our dreams are the wrong questions. We're asking, like, what does this mean? Is this, you know, is this real? Like, you know, what should I do with this? What would you say are the best questions we should ask when we've woken up after dreaming? What should we be looking for? Point us in the right direction, because I feel maybe we're wasting time and energy and effort in a different direction.So I would say when. I'll tell you my approach again, that's a massive topic you've just asked of me is one, there are dreams that clearly reflect your waking anxiety. Showing up late, alarm doesn't go off, showing up naked at a podium because you're worried about public speaking. So some don't require you to spend too much time on them. Number two, there are universal dreams, nightmares and erotic dreams. We've talked about that a little bit. Number three, there are dreams that just static, you know, let's not hold dreaming thought and emotions to what we wouldn't waking thought. There's a lot of stuff. We do them today we don't even hold on to. Right. Similarly, fourth are genre dreams, pregnancy dreams. Massive lifetime events are happening. Massive lifetime events are happening in your dreaming. That's consistent. The ones that I would say to people are to focus on are the ones that are hyper hyper emotional, and they linger into the next day. You can try to cultivate it with the morning technique. We talked about a slower rise, not switching to email and Instagram too quickly. But the hyper emotional dream is one to reflect upon.Here's why. The emotional systems of your brain, called limbic structures and the brain has the reptilian brain inside our throat, sort of back there. That's instinct. Makes you take a breath when you're underwater above it developed the emotional brain, much like what my dog has. You know, they have intuition, they have instinct through and actually step aside for a little bit and say, hey, what was that? Solar flare from my mind. And if it's useful to you, great. If the process helps you remember those more, great. But if you just have that 510 minutes during your morning where you just remember that you were not resting the night before, there was something wild and vibrant going on and you got a glimpse of it, what it means is up to you, but definitely don't neglect it.Well said. Doctor Raul John Dal the book is called, this is why you dream. If you don't have your copy already, make sure you grab it. We dove into some of the themes, some of the topics. There's so much more inside this book that I believe you're going to love and appreciate so that you can dream better, dream bigger and dream more beautifully as well, which is what I wish for each and every one of you. Raul, is there anything that I haven't asked you that you want to share is on your heart and mind intuitively that you believe is important for our community?I think there's too much judgment going on in the ways that people approach life. And some people think they've got it all figured out. And some people on the other end saying, I got nothing figured out. And I got to tell you listeners, I've been in that entire range. And I would say a couple of things. I would say, I think the dreaming brain and mind is a genius built in. That gives us resilience. And resilience. I want to leave people with a brand new definition of it, a psychological definition, that there's systemic resilience and processive resilience. Systemic resilience is what you bring to the fight, and processive resilience is what the fight brings out in you. So, wherever you're at, you're equipped with your dreaming brain as your ally. And I think, to me, that gives me a source of strength, that there's this process cultivating me, protecting me, preparing me for the next day. That's on one side, that's like. That's Rahul speaking emotionally right? On the other side, when you sit here and you say, this brain surgeon's trying to rock this stuff about the brain and mind and all that, I'll leave you with something I did not know.In neuroscience, right? I got a lab. I got a PhD in neuroscience. I'm a brain surgeon. You start to think you're, like, the expert at it, but there are things in exploring dreams and dreaming that I was surprised. Like, how did I not know that? Because it would have changed all the ways I would have acted through my life. I would have been more open, more exploratory, more willing to accept other people's experiences, because it doesn't all have to make sense, even to the uber expert. So I leave people with something to search online called paradoxical kinesis. P a r a d o x I c a l. Kinesis, it's called. We can't explain why you move that way. That's my. That's my street translation for that medical term. But what it is is those same patients that have dream enactment behavior. They care, act out their dreams, and later on, their Parkinson's develops and their brains wither. The strangest thing is when the Parkinson's sets in and their voices are stifled and their movements are rigid, when they act out their dreams, their voices are big and their movements are fluid. The dreaming mind somehow can access the body in a better way, in a more fluid way, in a more in tune way than the waking mind can.And that. That's what I like to leave people with. Like, I'm excited about this. I hope you guys are, too.So, Raul, you talk about how naps lasting 60 to 90 minutes can boost learning and creative problem solving by 40%. Why is this? And when's the best time to take a nap?The napping thing is big these days, and people are finding it's not work harder, work longer and all that, but try to work with the different states of mind and brain that you have, and napping, if you get to 60 or 90 minutes, people have done surveys and asked people to nap with puzzles, and they find entering the dream state or the sleeping state, which again, as we've talked about, is imaginative, is divergent thinking that they solve problems better, they have more solutions to riddles. And the big point there for people is there's a utility to napping. You're not lazy because you nap. And if you can do it in a way that doesn't disrupt your sleep later on in the day, I think that's another, in the world of hacks. I think that's the hack that we've got all got built in.Can you dream in that 60 to 90 minutes?Yeah.And have those dreams shown to be any different?I can't answer that. There isn't data on. Have those shown dreams shown to be any different? But I would say one condition is narcolepsy, where people fall asleep suddenly and there's information coming out from them. They suddenly fall asleep, and then they wake up and they enter a dream state. But that's a whole space that's opening up the utility of naps. And it doesn't have to be every day, it doesn't have to be rigid. And if you have a big event or a big project coming up, I think personally what I've tried is just shutting your eyes in a quiet space and allowing that mental workspace, allowing yourself not to be tasked on and drift inwards in your thoughts, whether you actually fall technically asleep or not. To me, that's been advantageous.Yes, absolutely. I agree with that. And I know many athletes who do that as well. Before a big game or before a big performance, you're not necessarily falling asleep, but I like, you're an off mode. Definitely. And also, last question I want to ask you was the question that Elena mentioned. So a lot of people, when they're in sleep entry, they feel like they're falling. Why does that exist? Why do people have that experience?I don't know if I have an answer for that, and I've seen the reports, but I couldn't tie any signs to that. But sleep entry, falling asleep is a time where activation of. Of the movement centers is pronounced and falling is actually a movement. It's not. You think, oh, running is a movement, falling, something that happens to you? No, but the activation of the brain, when people fall has to do with the motor strip as well, motor sensory. So during that transition, there may be a link there.Yeah. It's even interesting language, like falling asleep. Like, I guess you're falling onto your bed, but the idea of falling is just.I don't know, I like entering.Yeah, I find language really fascinating. And when I look at, like, falling to sleep, I'm like, that doesn't make any sense to me. Beyond falling onto a bed, which doesn't necessarily create a restful, peaceful feeling.Take that back 2000 years. And we memorize it by heart. And that's when we thought the heart was the center. So absolutely language shapes the direction of our mind. I mean, the power of words and people are finding handwriting is. It activates more part of the brains than typing. And so definitely the communication and storytelling and building meaning. There's something there. I'll explore that, hopefully, in the years ahead.Yeah, I think sleep entry and exit is brilliant. Language, though, that has really stayed with me. And it's making me think even more intentionally and insightfully around those intimate moments just before waking up. Especially those two to twelve minutes that you said before you go to bed and after you wake up. Because evening and morning routines make sense. But there's an even more special time there that could be managed.Yeah. That morning time, for me, sleep exit is definitely something I put to use. A lot of the ideas in this book. I'd read something, I'd be flipping through a bunch of papers. I'm like, what does this mean? What does it mean? And then it would be in the morning. I'd maybe that. Maybe that. Not a guarantee, but definitely a space to explore.Yeah. Amazing, Raul. So we end every episode of On Purpose with a fast five final fight. These are questions that have to be answered in one word to one sentence maximum. And these are your final five. So the first question is, what is the best dreaming advice you've ever heard or received?Try to remember them more.Okay. Second question. What is the worst dreaming advice you've ever heard or received?Dreams are meaningless.Question number three. A dream you wish you'd have more often.Falling in love the first time.Question number four. A dream that you wish people would have more often.Reconciliation dreams, dreams of forgiveness, dreams of letting go.And are those ones that we can train ourselves to have?I don't know, but those are the ones that some people report toward the end of life. And I just wonder if we had that more in the middle of our life, we would have less regrets and we'd be less encumbered by the fuss of the day.Why do you. Why? Is there any study to show why people are having it later on in life?No. Wow, that's. Yeah. And I can tell you that from my own experience with cancer patients. They're called genre dreams, end of life dreams. And again, our last act might be a massive dream and it tends to be positive, not always for near death experiences. To me, I call that a dreaming. Coming to our rescue.Yeah. Could you imagine? You're so right. If you could have that earlier on.Like, all that beef, all that fuss, you know, it's a great answer, you know, I just. I wish I could have let it go earlier.Yeah. Fifth and final question. We asked this to every guest who's ever been on the show. If you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be?Before you speak or act, do your best to imagine yourself in that person's shoes.Great answer. Doctor Ral Jandial. The book is called this is why you dream. Thank you so much for joining us today. If you don't already, make sure you follow Doctor Rahul Jandial on Instagram, Instagram across social media. Grab a copy of the book, we'll put the link in the comments and the caption section. And I'm so grateful for your time and energy today. I've learned so much. You've completely transformed my way of thinking about dreams. Honestly, through your book and this interview, I think I knew nothing about dreams before we met. I had really poor ideas and maybe some limited beliefs. And speaking to you today has just opened up a whole new area of growth for me that I don't even think I was thinking about. So I love the idea that I'm walking away with some simple yet clear tools to actually start implementing from tonight and tomorrow. So I'm really excited about this dream journey and I hope everyone who's listening and watching when you read the book, I hope you're going to go on a dream journey with me too. And I'd love to see you tag me and Doctor Raul in some of the experiments, some of the tests that you're carrying out in your own life.Thank you so much.Pleasure.Thank you so much for listening to this conversation. If you enjoyed it, you'll love my chat with Adam Grant on why discomfort is the key to growth and the strategies for unlocking your hidden potential. If you know you want to be more and achieve more this year, go check it out right now.You set a goal today, you achieve it in six months. And then by the time it happens, it's almost a relief. There's no sense of meaning. A you sort of expected it and you would have been disappointed if it didn't happen.Get emotional with me, Radhi Devlukia, in my new podcast, a really good cry. We're gonna be talking with some of my best friends.I didn't know we were gonna go there on this.People that I admire, when we say, listen to your body, really tune into what's going on. Authors of books that have changed my life.Now you're talking about sympathy, which is different than empathy, right?Never forget, it's okay to cry as long as you make it a really good one. Listen to a really good cry with Radhi Dvlukia on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.Something that makes me crazy is when people say, well, I had this career before, but it was a waste. And that's where the perspective shift comes, that it's not a waste, that everything you've done has built you to where you are now. This is she pivots, the podcast where we explore the inspiring pivots women have made and dig deeper into the personal reasons behind them. Join me, Emily Tisch Sussman. Every Wednesday on she pivots. Listen to she pivots on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On his new podcast, six degrees with Kevin Bacon. Join Kevin for inspiring conversations with his friends and fellow celebrities who are working to make a difference in the world, like actor Mark Ruffalo.You know, I found myself moving upstate.In the middle of this fracking know.And I'm trying to raise kids there, and my neighbor's, like, willing to poison my water.Listen to six degrees with Kevin Bacon on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

from the book, which I think are so interesting for people. I want to talk to you about before we get into lucid dreaming, I want to talk to you a bit about how dreams can predict the future. And I think a lot of people worry that their dreams, their thoughts can create reality subconsciously. Somewhere. We feel that, like, I know people who have illnesses or, like, I manifested this, like, I made this happen, or like, I have a disease and, oh, my God, I saw this coming. Or, you know, that kind of feeling.

Warning dreams.

Yeah, warning dreams. And that almost feels a bit worrying as well, because. Because often when you have that warning, you're now constantly replaying it and thinking about it while you're awake and while you're asleep. Can dreams predict the future, especially when.

It comes to health in one specific way? Dreams can absolutely predict the future of your health. And we'll get into that. That's Parkinson's. But in general, for cancer, for other diseases, it's hard to tease out whether my patients had the diagnosis and then sort of reverse thought. Like, I think I had a dream about that. I'm not judging them. I'm totally open minded, but I can't. I can't grip the data on that. But if you do have a dream about disease, statistically, you're not more likely to have that disease. They've been looking at these surveys, so it might just reveal a certain anxiety you're having. Again, symbolic. You might be struggling with something and then have a disease based dream. So as long as we remember that, most of the time, they're symbolic and not literal, I think that's important. There are plenty of reports and surveys where breast cancer patients are said, like, I had a dream, I felt a lump in these sort of things. I respect that. I respect their whole journey. So I want to put that out there, the one specific way that dreams can predict the future. I need to unpack this one for a little bit, because this was mind blowing when I.

When I learned about it. There's something called rem behavior disorder, which I'm relabeling. Dream enactment behavior. Yeah. My world.

Thank you, Ron. Thank you so much.

My world. The words are, they confuse, you know, dream enactment behavior. Middle aged men, fifties, acting out their dream, usually protecting their bed partner. They come in the bed partner, maybe has an injury. Those men, 94% of the time, and that's essentially in medicine, it's universal. 15 years later, will develop Parkinson's, I think, you know. So that is the one example, and it's. If it's the only example for every neuroscientist out there, every scientist out there hear me with this, that the. The first warning flare of the brain's deterioration with Parkinson's is a change in dreams 15 years ago. I'll just leave it at that for all the rigorous people out actually lucid dreaming. Everything before that was a survey like, yeah, I did it and I'm lucid dreaming more. I believe people. But, you know, I like that extra bit of proof. So the mild technique is proven with the left, right, left, right Morse code technique that clearly shows you are asleep based on your brain electricity and you are using eye patterns so much.So this is a banger. They started doing a little bit of mathematic two plus two, and they'd have code. And somebody says to me, I think I was in Paris. And I said, wait a second. You said the dreaming brain doesn't do math. I said, yeah, but I also showed you the brain scans that show a bit of awareness and has come back, as does the bit of ability to do math. So I love seeing those pieces come in consistently.That's brilliant. Raul, from all your research, you've done tons of research, tons of reading, looking at studies. I feel one of the biggest things that I'm taking away from this is often the questions we're asking about our dreams are the wrong questions. We're asking, like, what does this mean? Is this, you know, is this real? Like, you know, what should I do with this? What would you say are the best questions we should ask when we've woken up after dreaming? What should we be looking for? Point us in the right direction, because I feel maybe we're wasting time and energy and effort in a different direction.So I would say when. I'll tell you my approach again, that's a massive topic you've just asked of me is one, there are dreams that clearly reflect your waking anxiety. Showing up late, alarm doesn't go off, showing up naked at a podium because you're worried about public speaking. So some don't require you to spend too much time on them. Number two, there are universal dreams, nightmares and erotic dreams. We've talked about that a little bit. Number three, there are dreams that just static, you know, let's not hold dreaming thought and emotions to what we wouldn't waking thought. There's a lot of stuff. We do them today we don't even hold on to. Right. Similarly, fourth are genre dreams, pregnancy dreams. Massive lifetime events are happening. Massive lifetime events are happening in your dreaming. That's consistent. The ones that I would say to people are to focus on are the ones that are hyper hyper emotional, and they linger into the next day. You can try to cultivate it with the morning technique. We talked about a slower rise, not switching to email and Instagram too quickly. But the hyper emotional dream is one to reflect upon.Here's why. The emotional systems of your brain, called limbic structures and the brain has the reptilian brain inside our throat, sort of back there. That's instinct. Makes you take a breath when you're underwater above it developed the emotional brain, much like what my dog has. You know, they have intuition, they have instinct through and actually step aside for a little bit and say, hey, what was that? Solar flare from my mind. And if it's useful to you, great. If the process helps you remember those more, great. But if you just have that 510 minutes during your morning where you just remember that you were not resting the night before, there was something wild and vibrant going on and you got a glimpse of it, what it means is up to you, but definitely don't neglect it.Well said. Doctor Raul John Dal the book is called, this is why you dream. If you don't have your copy already, make sure you grab it. We dove into some of the themes, some of the topics. There's so much more inside this book that I believe you're going to love and appreciate so that you can dream better, dream bigger and dream more beautifully as well, which is what I wish for each and every one of you. Raul, is there anything that I haven't asked you that you want to share is on your heart and mind intuitively that you believe is important for our community?I think there's too much judgment going on in the ways that people approach life. And some people think they've got it all figured out. And some people on the other end saying, I got nothing figured out. And I got to tell you listeners, I've been in that entire range. And I would say a couple of things. I would say, I think the dreaming brain and mind is a genius built in. That gives us resilience. And resilience. I want to leave people with a brand new definition of it, a psychological definition, that there's systemic resilience and processive resilience. Systemic resilience is what you bring to the fight, and processive resilience is what the fight brings out in you. So, wherever you're at, you're equipped with your dreaming brain as your ally. And I think, to me, that gives me a source of strength, that there's this process cultivating me, protecting me, preparing me for the next day. That's on one side, that's like. That's Rahul speaking emotionally right? On the other side, when you sit here and you say, this brain surgeon's trying to rock this stuff about the brain and mind and all that, I'll leave you with something I did not know.In neuroscience, right? I got a lab. I got a PhD in neuroscience. I'm a brain surgeon. You start to think you're, like, the expert at it, but there are things in exploring dreams and dreaming that I was surprised. Like, how did I not know that? Because it would have changed all the ways I would have acted through my life. I would have been more open, more exploratory, more willing to accept other people's experiences, because it doesn't all have to make sense, even to the uber expert. So I leave people with something to search online called paradoxical kinesis. P a r a d o x I c a l. Kinesis, it's called. We can't explain why you move that way. That's my. That's my street translation for that medical term. But what it is is those same patients that have dream enactment behavior. They care, act out their dreams, and later on, their Parkinson's develops and their brains wither. The strangest thing is when the Parkinson's sets in and their voices are stifled and their movements are rigid, when they act out their dreams, their voices are big and their movements are fluid. The dreaming mind somehow can access the body in a better way, in a more fluid way, in a more in tune way than the waking mind can.And that. That's what I like to leave people with. Like, I'm excited about this. I hope you guys are, too.So, Raul, you talk about how naps lasting 60 to 90 minutes can boost learning and creative problem solving by 40%. Why is this? And when's the best time to take a nap?The napping thing is big these days, and people are finding it's not work harder, work longer and all that, but try to work with the different states of mind and brain that you have, and napping, if you get to 60 or 90 minutes, people have done surveys and asked people to nap with puzzles, and they find entering the dream state or the sleeping state, which again, as we've talked about, is imaginative, is divergent thinking that they solve problems better, they have more solutions to riddles. And the big point there for people is there's a utility to napping. You're not lazy because you nap. And if you can do it in a way that doesn't disrupt your sleep later on in the day, I think that's another, in the world of hacks. I think that's the hack that we've got all got built in.Can you dream in that 60 to 90 minutes?Yeah.And have those dreams shown to be any different?I can't answer that. There isn't data on. Have those shown dreams shown to be any different? But I would say one condition is narcolepsy, where people fall asleep suddenly and there's information coming out from them. They suddenly fall asleep, and then they wake up and they enter a dream state. But that's a whole space that's opening up the utility of naps. And it doesn't have to be every day, it doesn't have to be rigid. And if you have a big event or a big project coming up, I think personally what I've tried is just shutting your eyes in a quiet space and allowing that mental workspace, allowing yourself not to be tasked on and drift inwards in your thoughts, whether you actually fall technically asleep or not. To me, that's been advantageous.Yes, absolutely. I agree with that. And I know many athletes who do that as well. Before a big game or before a big performance, you're not necessarily falling asleep, but I like, you're an off mode. Definitely. And also, last question I want to ask you was the question that Elena mentioned. So a lot of people, when they're in sleep entry, they feel like they're falling. Why does that exist? Why do people have that experience?I don't know if I have an answer for that, and I've seen the reports, but I couldn't tie any signs to that. But sleep entry, falling asleep is a time where activation of. Of the movement centers is pronounced and falling is actually a movement. It's not. You think, oh, running is a movement, falling, something that happens to you? No, but the activation of the brain, when people fall has to do with the motor strip as well, motor sensory. So during that transition, there may be a link there.Yeah. It's even interesting language, like falling asleep. Like, I guess you're falling onto your bed, but the idea of falling is just.I don't know, I like entering.Yeah, I find language really fascinating. And when I look at, like, falling to sleep, I'm like, that doesn't make any sense to me. Beyond falling onto a bed, which doesn't necessarily create a restful, peaceful feeling.Take that back 2000 years. And we memorize it by heart. And that's when we thought the heart was the center. So absolutely language shapes the direction of our mind. I mean, the power of words and people are finding handwriting is. It activates more part of the brains than typing. And so definitely the communication and storytelling and building meaning. There's something there. I'll explore that, hopefully, in the years ahead.Yeah, I think sleep entry and exit is brilliant. Language, though, that has really stayed with me. And it's making me think even more intentionally and insightfully around those intimate moments just before waking up. Especially those two to twelve minutes that you said before you go to bed and after you wake up. Because evening and morning routines make sense. But there's an even more special time there that could be managed.Yeah. That morning time, for me, sleep exit is definitely something I put to use. A lot of the ideas in this book. I'd read something, I'd be flipping through a bunch of papers. I'm like, what does this mean? What does it mean? And then it would be in the morning. I'd maybe that. Maybe that. Not a guarantee, but definitely a space to explore.Yeah. Amazing, Raul. So we end every episode of On Purpose with a fast five final fight. These are questions that have to be answered in one word to one sentence maximum. And these are your final five. So the first question is, what is the best dreaming advice you've ever heard or received?Try to remember them more.Okay. Second question. What is the worst dreaming advice you've ever heard or received?Dreams are meaningless.Question number three. A dream you wish you'd have more often.Falling in love the first time.Question number four. A dream that you wish people would have more often.Reconciliation dreams, dreams of forgiveness, dreams of letting go.And are those ones that we can train ourselves to have?I don't know, but those are the ones that some people report toward the end of life. And I just wonder if we had that more in the middle of our life, we would have less regrets and we'd be less encumbered by the fuss of the day.Why do you. Why? Is there any study to show why people are having it later on in life?No. Wow, that's. Yeah. And I can tell you that from my own experience with cancer patients. They're called genre dreams, end of life dreams. And again, our last act might be a massive dream and it tends to be positive, not always for near death experiences. To me, I call that a dreaming. Coming to our rescue.Yeah. Could you imagine? You're so right. If you could have that earlier on.Like, all that beef, all that fuss, you know, it's a great answer, you know, I just. I wish I could have let it go earlier.Yeah. Fifth and final question. We asked this to every guest who's ever been on the show. If you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be?Before you speak or act, do your best to imagine yourself in that person's shoes.Great answer. Doctor Ral Jandial. The book is called this is why you dream. Thank you so much for joining us today. If you don't already, make sure you follow Doctor Rahul Jandial on Instagram, Instagram across social media. Grab a copy of the book, we'll put the link in the comments and the caption section. And I'm so grateful for your time and energy today. I've learned so much. You've completely transformed my way of thinking about dreams. Honestly, through your book and this interview, I think I knew nothing about dreams before we met. I had really poor ideas and maybe some limited beliefs. And speaking to you today has just opened up a whole new area of growth for me that I don't even think I was thinking about. So I love the idea that I'm walking away with some simple yet clear tools to actually start implementing from tonight and tomorrow. So I'm really excited about this dream journey and I hope everyone who's listening and watching when you read the book, I hope you're going to go on a dream journey with me too. And I'd love to see you tag me and Doctor Raul in some of the experiments, some of the tests that you're carrying out in your own life.Thank you so much.Pleasure.Thank you so much for listening to this conversation. If you enjoyed it, you'll love my chat with Adam Grant on why discomfort is the key to growth and the strategies for unlocking your hidden potential. If you know you want to be more and achieve more this year, go check it out right now.You set a goal today, you achieve it in six months. And then by the time it happens, it's almost a relief. There's no sense of meaning. A you sort of expected it and you would have been disappointed if it didn't happen.Get emotional with me, Radhi Devlukia, in my new podcast, a really good cry. We're gonna be talking with some of my best friends.I didn't know we were gonna go there on this.People that I admire, when we say, listen to your body, really tune into what's going on. Authors of books that have changed my life.Now you're talking about sympathy, which is different than empathy, right?Never forget, it's okay to cry as long as you make it a really good one. Listen to a really good cry with Radhi Dvlukia on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.Something that makes me crazy is when people say, well, I had this career before, but it was a waste. And that's where the perspective shift comes, that it's not a waste, that everything you've done has built you to where you are now. This is she pivots, the podcast where we explore the inspiring pivots women have made and dig deeper into the personal reasons behind them. Join me, Emily Tisch Sussman. Every Wednesday on she pivots. Listen to she pivots on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On his new podcast, six degrees with Kevin Bacon. Join Kevin for inspiring conversations with his friends and fellow celebrities who are working to make a difference in the world, like actor Mark Ruffalo.You know, I found myself moving upstate.In the middle of this fracking know.And I'm trying to raise kids there, and my neighbor's, like, willing to poison my water.Listen to six degrees with Kevin Bacon on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

actually lucid dreaming. Everything before that was a survey like, yeah, I did it and I'm lucid dreaming more. I believe people. But, you know, I like that extra bit of proof. So the mild technique is proven with the left, right, left, right Morse code technique that clearly shows you are asleep based on your brain electricity and you are using eye patterns so much.

So this is a banger. They started doing a little bit of mathematic two plus two, and they'd have code. And somebody says to me, I think I was in Paris. And I said, wait a second. You said the dreaming brain doesn't do math. I said, yeah, but I also showed you the brain scans that show a bit of awareness and has come back, as does the bit of ability to do math. So I love seeing those pieces come in consistently.

That's brilliant. Raul, from all your research, you've done tons of research, tons of reading, looking at studies. I feel one of the biggest things that I'm taking away from this is often the questions we're asking about our dreams are the wrong questions. We're asking, like, what does this mean? Is this, you know, is this real? Like, you know, what should I do with this? What would you say are the best questions we should ask when we've woken up after dreaming? What should we be looking for? Point us in the right direction, because I feel maybe we're wasting time and energy and effort in a different direction.

So I would say when. I'll tell you my approach again, that's a massive topic you've just asked of me is one, there are dreams that clearly reflect your waking anxiety. Showing up late, alarm doesn't go off, showing up naked at a podium because you're worried about public speaking. So some don't require you to spend too much time on them. Number two, there are universal dreams, nightmares and erotic dreams. We've talked about that a little bit. Number three, there are dreams that just static, you know, let's not hold dreaming thought and emotions to what we wouldn't waking thought. There's a lot of stuff. We do them today we don't even hold on to. Right. Similarly, fourth are genre dreams, pregnancy dreams. Massive lifetime events are happening. Massive lifetime events are happening in your dreaming. That's consistent. The ones that I would say to people are to focus on are the ones that are hyper hyper emotional, and they linger into the next day. You can try to cultivate it with the morning technique. We talked about a slower rise, not switching to email and Instagram too quickly. But the hyper emotional dream is one to reflect upon.

Here's why. The emotional systems of your brain, called limbic structures and the brain has the reptilian brain inside our throat, sort of back there. That's instinct. Makes you take a breath when you're underwater above it developed the emotional brain, much like what my dog has. You know, they have intuition, they have instinct through and actually step aside for a little bit and say, hey, what was that? Solar flare from my mind. And if it's useful to you, great. If the process helps you remember those more, great. But if you just have that 510 minutes during your morning where you just remember that you were not resting the night before, there was something wild and vibrant going on and you got a glimpse of it, what it means is up to you, but definitely don't neglect it.Well said. Doctor Raul John Dal the book is called, this is why you dream. If you don't have your copy already, make sure you grab it. We dove into some of the themes, some of the topics. There's so much more inside this book that I believe you're going to love and appreciate so that you can dream better, dream bigger and dream more beautifully as well, which is what I wish for each and every one of you. Raul, is there anything that I haven't asked you that you want to share is on your heart and mind intuitively that you believe is important for our community?I think there's too much judgment going on in the ways that people approach life. And some people think they've got it all figured out. And some people on the other end saying, I got nothing figured out. And I got to tell you listeners, I've been in that entire range. And I would say a couple of things. I would say, I think the dreaming brain and mind is a genius built in. That gives us resilience. And resilience. I want to leave people with a brand new definition of it, a psychological definition, that there's systemic resilience and processive resilience. Systemic resilience is what you bring to the fight, and processive resilience is what the fight brings out in you. So, wherever you're at, you're equipped with your dreaming brain as your ally. And I think, to me, that gives me a source of strength, that there's this process cultivating me, protecting me, preparing me for the next day. That's on one side, that's like. That's Rahul speaking emotionally right? On the other side, when you sit here and you say, this brain surgeon's trying to rock this stuff about the brain and mind and all that, I'll leave you with something I did not know.In neuroscience, right? I got a lab. I got a PhD in neuroscience. I'm a brain surgeon. You start to think you're, like, the expert at it, but there are things in exploring dreams and dreaming that I was surprised. Like, how did I not know that? Because it would have changed all the ways I would have acted through my life. I would have been more open, more exploratory, more willing to accept other people's experiences, because it doesn't all have to make sense, even to the uber expert. So I leave people with something to search online called paradoxical kinesis. P a r a d o x I c a l. Kinesis, it's called. We can't explain why you move that way. That's my. That's my street translation for that medical term. But what it is is those same patients that have dream enactment behavior. They care, act out their dreams, and later on, their Parkinson's develops and their brains wither. The strangest thing is when the Parkinson's sets in and their voices are stifled and their movements are rigid, when they act out their dreams, their voices are big and their movements are fluid. The dreaming mind somehow can access the body in a better way, in a more fluid way, in a more in tune way than the waking mind can.And that. That's what I like to leave people with. Like, I'm excited about this. I hope you guys are, too.So, Raul, you talk about how naps lasting 60 to 90 minutes can boost learning and creative problem solving by 40%. Why is this? And when's the best time to take a nap?The napping thing is big these days, and people are finding it's not work harder, work longer and all that, but try to work with the different states of mind and brain that you have, and napping, if you get to 60 or 90 minutes, people have done surveys and asked people to nap with puzzles, and they find entering the dream state or the sleeping state, which again, as we've talked about, is imaginative, is divergent thinking that they solve problems better, they have more solutions to riddles. And the big point there for people is there's a utility to napping. You're not lazy because you nap. And if you can do it in a way that doesn't disrupt your sleep later on in the day, I think that's another, in the world of hacks. I think that's the hack that we've got all got built in.Can you dream in that 60 to 90 minutes?Yeah.And have those dreams shown to be any different?I can't answer that. There isn't data on. Have those shown dreams shown to be any different? But I would say one condition is narcolepsy, where people fall asleep suddenly and there's information coming out from them. They suddenly fall asleep, and then they wake up and they enter a dream state. But that's a whole space that's opening up the utility of naps. And it doesn't have to be every day, it doesn't have to be rigid. And if you have a big event or a big project coming up, I think personally what I've tried is just shutting your eyes in a quiet space and allowing that mental workspace, allowing yourself not to be tasked on and drift inwards in your thoughts, whether you actually fall technically asleep or not. To me, that's been advantageous.Yes, absolutely. I agree with that. And I know many athletes who do that as well. Before a big game or before a big performance, you're not necessarily falling asleep, but I like, you're an off mode. Definitely. And also, last question I want to ask you was the question that Elena mentioned. So a lot of people, when they're in sleep entry, they feel like they're falling. Why does that exist? Why do people have that experience?I don't know if I have an answer for that, and I've seen the reports, but I couldn't tie any signs to that. But sleep entry, falling asleep is a time where activation of. Of the movement centers is pronounced and falling is actually a movement. It's not. You think, oh, running is a movement, falling, something that happens to you? No, but the activation of the brain, when people fall has to do with the motor strip as well, motor sensory. So during that transition, there may be a link there.Yeah. It's even interesting language, like falling asleep. Like, I guess you're falling onto your bed, but the idea of falling is just.I don't know, I like entering.Yeah, I find language really fascinating. And when I look at, like, falling to sleep, I'm like, that doesn't make any sense to me. Beyond falling onto a bed, which doesn't necessarily create a restful, peaceful feeling.Take that back 2000 years. And we memorize it by heart. And that's when we thought the heart was the center. So absolutely language shapes the direction of our mind. I mean, the power of words and people are finding handwriting is. It activates more part of the brains than typing. And so definitely the communication and storytelling and building meaning. There's something there. I'll explore that, hopefully, in the years ahead.Yeah, I think sleep entry and exit is brilliant. Language, though, that has really stayed with me. And it's making me think even more intentionally and insightfully around those intimate moments just before waking up. Especially those two to twelve minutes that you said before you go to bed and after you wake up. Because evening and morning routines make sense. But there's an even more special time there that could be managed.Yeah. That morning time, for me, sleep exit is definitely something I put to use. A lot of the ideas in this book. I'd read something, I'd be flipping through a bunch of papers. I'm like, what does this mean? What does it mean? And then it would be in the morning. I'd maybe that. Maybe that. Not a guarantee, but definitely a space to explore.Yeah. Amazing, Raul. So we end every episode of On Purpose with a fast five final fight. These are questions that have to be answered in one word to one sentence maximum. And these are your final five. So the first question is, what is the best dreaming advice you've ever heard or received?Try to remember them more.Okay. Second question. What is the worst dreaming advice you've ever heard or received?Dreams are meaningless.Question number three. A dream you wish you'd have more often.Falling in love the first time.Question number four. A dream that you wish people would have more often.Reconciliation dreams, dreams of forgiveness, dreams of letting go.And are those ones that we can train ourselves to have?I don't know, but those are the ones that some people report toward the end of life. And I just wonder if we had that more in the middle of our life, we would have less regrets and we'd be less encumbered by the fuss of the day.Why do you. Why? Is there any study to show why people are having it later on in life?No. Wow, that's. Yeah. And I can tell you that from my own experience with cancer patients. They're called genre dreams, end of life dreams. And again, our last act might be a massive dream and it tends to be positive, not always for near death experiences. To me, I call that a dreaming. Coming to our rescue.Yeah. Could you imagine? You're so right. If you could have that earlier on.Like, all that beef, all that fuss, you know, it's a great answer, you know, I just. I wish I could have let it go earlier.Yeah. Fifth and final question. We asked this to every guest who's ever been on the show. If you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be?Before you speak or act, do your best to imagine yourself in that person's shoes.Great answer. Doctor Ral Jandial. The book is called this is why you dream. Thank you so much for joining us today. If you don't already, make sure you follow Doctor Rahul Jandial on Instagram, Instagram across social media. Grab a copy of the book, we'll put the link in the comments and the caption section. And I'm so grateful for your time and energy today. I've learned so much. You've completely transformed my way of thinking about dreams. Honestly, through your book and this interview, I think I knew nothing about dreams before we met. I had really poor ideas and maybe some limited beliefs. And speaking to you today has just opened up a whole new area of growth for me that I don't even think I was thinking about. So I love the idea that I'm walking away with some simple yet clear tools to actually start implementing from tonight and tomorrow. So I'm really excited about this dream journey and I hope everyone who's listening and watching when you read the book, I hope you're going to go on a dream journey with me too. And I'd love to see you tag me and Doctor Raul in some of the experiments, some of the tests that you're carrying out in your own life.Thank you so much.Pleasure.Thank you so much for listening to this conversation. If you enjoyed it, you'll love my chat with Adam Grant on why discomfort is the key to growth and the strategies for unlocking your hidden potential. If you know you want to be more and achieve more this year, go check it out right now.You set a goal today, you achieve it in six months. And then by the time it happens, it's almost a relief. There's no sense of meaning. A you sort of expected it and you would have been disappointed if it didn't happen.Get emotional with me, Radhi Devlukia, in my new podcast, a really good cry. We're gonna be talking with some of my best friends.I didn't know we were gonna go there on this.People that I admire, when we say, listen to your body, really tune into what's going on. Authors of books that have changed my life.Now you're talking about sympathy, which is different than empathy, right?Never forget, it's okay to cry as long as you make it a really good one. Listen to a really good cry with Radhi Dvlukia on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.Something that makes me crazy is when people say, well, I had this career before, but it was a waste. And that's where the perspective shift comes, that it's not a waste, that everything you've done has built you to where you are now. This is she pivots, the podcast where we explore the inspiring pivots women have made and dig deeper into the personal reasons behind them. Join me, Emily Tisch Sussman. Every Wednesday on she pivots. Listen to she pivots on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On his new podcast, six degrees with Kevin Bacon. Join Kevin for inspiring conversations with his friends and fellow celebrities who are working to make a difference in the world, like actor Mark Ruffalo.You know, I found myself moving upstate.In the middle of this fracking know.And I'm trying to raise kids there, and my neighbor's, like, willing to poison my water.Listen to six degrees with Kevin Bacon on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

through and actually step aside for a little bit and say, hey, what was that? Solar flare from my mind. And if it's useful to you, great. If the process helps you remember those more, great. But if you just have that 510 minutes during your morning where you just remember that you were not resting the night before, there was something wild and vibrant going on and you got a glimpse of it, what it means is up to you, but definitely don't neglect it.

Well said. Doctor Raul John Dal the book is called, this is why you dream. If you don't have your copy already, make sure you grab it. We dove into some of the themes, some of the topics. There's so much more inside this book that I believe you're going to love and appreciate so that you can dream better, dream bigger and dream more beautifully as well, which is what I wish for each and every one of you. Raul, is there anything that I haven't asked you that you want to share is on your heart and mind intuitively that you believe is important for our community?

I think there's too much judgment going on in the ways that people approach life. And some people think they've got it all figured out. And some people on the other end saying, I got nothing figured out. And I got to tell you listeners, I've been in that entire range. And I would say a couple of things. I would say, I think the dreaming brain and mind is a genius built in. That gives us resilience. And resilience. I want to leave people with a brand new definition of it, a psychological definition, that there's systemic resilience and processive resilience. Systemic resilience is what you bring to the fight, and processive resilience is what the fight brings out in you. So, wherever you're at, you're equipped with your dreaming brain as your ally. And I think, to me, that gives me a source of strength, that there's this process cultivating me, protecting me, preparing me for the next day. That's on one side, that's like. That's Rahul speaking emotionally right? On the other side, when you sit here and you say, this brain surgeon's trying to rock this stuff about the brain and mind and all that, I'll leave you with something I did not know.

In neuroscience, right? I got a lab. I got a PhD in neuroscience. I'm a brain surgeon. You start to think you're, like, the expert at it, but there are things in exploring dreams and dreaming that I was surprised. Like, how did I not know that? Because it would have changed all the ways I would have acted through my life. I would have been more open, more exploratory, more willing to accept other people's experiences, because it doesn't all have to make sense, even to the uber expert. So I leave people with something to search online called paradoxical kinesis. P a r a d o x I c a l. Kinesis, it's called. We can't explain why you move that way. That's my. That's my street translation for that medical term. But what it is is those same patients that have dream enactment behavior. They care, act out their dreams, and later on, their Parkinson's develops and their brains wither. The strangest thing is when the Parkinson's sets in and their voices are stifled and their movements are rigid, when they act out their dreams, their voices are big and their movements are fluid. The dreaming mind somehow can access the body in a better way, in a more fluid way, in a more in tune way than the waking mind can.

And that. That's what I like to leave people with. Like, I'm excited about this. I hope you guys are, too.

So, Raul, you talk about how naps lasting 60 to 90 minutes can boost learning and creative problem solving by 40%. Why is this? And when's the best time to take a nap?

The napping thing is big these days, and people are finding it's not work harder, work longer and all that, but try to work with the different states of mind and brain that you have, and napping, if you get to 60 or 90 minutes, people have done surveys and asked people to nap with puzzles, and they find entering the dream state or the sleeping state, which again, as we've talked about, is imaginative, is divergent thinking that they solve problems better, they have more solutions to riddles. And the big point there for people is there's a utility to napping. You're not lazy because you nap. And if you can do it in a way that doesn't disrupt your sleep later on in the day, I think that's another, in the world of hacks. I think that's the hack that we've got all got built in.

Can you dream in that 60 to 90 minutes?

Yeah.

And have those dreams shown to be any different?

I can't answer that. There isn't data on. Have those shown dreams shown to be any different? But I would say one condition is narcolepsy, where people fall asleep suddenly and there's information coming out from them. They suddenly fall asleep, and then they wake up and they enter a dream state. But that's a whole space that's opening up the utility of naps. And it doesn't have to be every day, it doesn't have to be rigid. And if you have a big event or a big project coming up, I think personally what I've tried is just shutting your eyes in a quiet space and allowing that mental workspace, allowing yourself not to be tasked on and drift inwards in your thoughts, whether you actually fall technically asleep or not. To me, that's been advantageous.

Yes, absolutely. I agree with that. And I know many athletes who do that as well. Before a big game or before a big performance, you're not necessarily falling asleep, but I like, you're an off mode. Definitely. And also, last question I want to ask you was the question that Elena mentioned. So a lot of people, when they're in sleep entry, they feel like they're falling. Why does that exist? Why do people have that experience?

I don't know if I have an answer for that, and I've seen the reports, but I couldn't tie any signs to that. But sleep entry, falling asleep is a time where activation of. Of the movement centers is pronounced and falling is actually a movement. It's not. You think, oh, running is a movement, falling, something that happens to you? No, but the activation of the brain, when people fall has to do with the motor strip as well, motor sensory. So during that transition, there may be a link there.

Yeah. It's even interesting language, like falling asleep. Like, I guess you're falling onto your bed, but the idea of falling is just.

I don't know, I like entering.

Yeah, I find language really fascinating. And when I look at, like, falling to sleep, I'm like, that doesn't make any sense to me. Beyond falling onto a bed, which doesn't necessarily create a restful, peaceful feeling.

Take that back 2000 years. And we memorize it by heart. And that's when we thought the heart was the center. So absolutely language shapes the direction of our mind. I mean, the power of words and people are finding handwriting is. It activates more part of the brains than typing. And so definitely the communication and storytelling and building meaning. There's something there. I'll explore that, hopefully, in the years ahead.

Yeah, I think sleep entry and exit is brilliant. Language, though, that has really stayed with me. And it's making me think even more intentionally and insightfully around those intimate moments just before waking up. Especially those two to twelve minutes that you said before you go to bed and after you wake up. Because evening and morning routines make sense. But there's an even more special time there that could be managed.

Yeah. That morning time, for me, sleep exit is definitely something I put to use. A lot of the ideas in this book. I'd read something, I'd be flipping through a bunch of papers. I'm like, what does this mean? What does it mean? And then it would be in the morning. I'd maybe that. Maybe that. Not a guarantee, but definitely a space to explore.

Yeah. Amazing, Raul. So we end every episode of On Purpose with a fast five final fight. These are questions that have to be answered in one word to one sentence maximum. And these are your final five. So the first question is, what is the best dreaming advice you've ever heard or received?

Try to remember them more.

Okay. Second question. What is the worst dreaming advice you've ever heard or received?

Dreams are meaningless.

Question number three. A dream you wish you'd have more often.

Falling in love the first time.

Question number four. A dream that you wish people would have more often.

Reconciliation dreams, dreams of forgiveness, dreams of letting go.

And are those ones that we can train ourselves to have?

I don't know, but those are the ones that some people report toward the end of life. And I just wonder if we had that more in the middle of our life, we would have less regrets and we'd be less encumbered by the fuss of the day.

Why do you. Why? Is there any study to show why people are having it later on in life?

No. Wow, that's. Yeah. And I can tell you that from my own experience with cancer patients. They're called genre dreams, end of life dreams. And again, our last act might be a massive dream and it tends to be positive, not always for near death experiences. To me, I call that a dreaming. Coming to our rescue.

Yeah. Could you imagine? You're so right. If you could have that earlier on.

Like, all that beef, all that fuss, you know, it's a great answer, you know, I just. I wish I could have let it go earlier.

Yeah. Fifth and final question. We asked this to every guest who's ever been on the show. If you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be?

Before you speak or act, do your best to imagine yourself in that person's shoes.

Great answer. Doctor Ral Jandial. The book is called this is why you dream. Thank you so much for joining us today. If you don't already, make sure you follow Doctor Rahul Jandial on Instagram, Instagram across social media. Grab a copy of the book, we'll put the link in the comments and the caption section. And I'm so grateful for your time and energy today. I've learned so much. You've completely transformed my way of thinking about dreams. Honestly, through your book and this interview, I think I knew nothing about dreams before we met. I had really poor ideas and maybe some limited beliefs. And speaking to you today has just opened up a whole new area of growth for me that I don't even think I was thinking about. So I love the idea that I'm walking away with some simple yet clear tools to actually start implementing from tonight and tomorrow. So I'm really excited about this dream journey and I hope everyone who's listening and watching when you read the book, I hope you're going to go on a dream journey with me too. And I'd love to see you tag me and Doctor Raul in some of the experiments, some of the tests that you're carrying out in your own life.

Thank you so much.

Pleasure.

Thank you so much for listening to this conversation. If you enjoyed it, you'll love my chat with Adam Grant on why discomfort is the key to growth and the strategies for unlocking your hidden potential. If you know you want to be more and achieve more this year, go check it out right now.

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