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You know, I found myself moving upstate in the middle of this fracking fight, you know, and I'm trying to raise kids there and, you know, my neighbor's like willing to poison my water.

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I had somehow gotten to that point in life in my forties where I had thought, oh, there are these amazing joy moments or these really sad, low moments. No, you can hold joy and sadness side by side.

It's one of the most influential voices in the philanthropy community.

Melinda French Gates I thought I'd be married 50 plus years. For me, I couldn't go forward. There wasn't enough trust any longer. I had days where I thought, I don't know if I'll ever be happy again. That was the hardest thing I had ever been through in my life.

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Jay Shetty. He won the only Jay Shettye.

Hey, everyone. Welcome back to on Purpose, the number one mental health podcast in the world. Thanks to each and every one of you that come back every week to become happier, healthier, and more healed. You know that my greatest fascination is sitting down with individuals who've trodden paths that may seem really different from ours, but we can still relate to them. We can still connect to them. We can still see ourselves in their experiences and find advice, lessons, and insights that we can apply to our own. Today's conversation is going to do just that. I have the honor today of speaking to Melinda French Gates, a philanthropist, businesswoman, and global advocate for women and girls. As the co chair of the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, Melinda sets the direction and priorities of one of the world's largest philanthropies across the world. In 2015, Melinda founded Pivotal Ventures, a company working to accelerate the pace of social progress in the United States. Melinda is also the author of the best selling book the Moment of Lift. Go and grab it. If you haven't already, please welcome to on purpose, Melinda French Gates. Melinda, it's such a joy to be with you.

Thank you so much for being here.

I'm so glad we could do this.

I know. Me, too. Me, too. And I want to dive straight in. I have so many questions I wanted to ask you, but I wanted to start off by saying you've gone through a lot of changes recently. So you just turned 60. Congratulations.

Thank you.

You're a grandma now? I believe so. Congratulations. And I believe your last child just left home. And so now you're an empty nester, too, which not as much. Congratulations. But you've been through so many changes in your life, and I wanted to start by asking you, what are your greatest takeaways on dealing with change? The thing that seems to be the greatest constant in all of our lives, but something none of us seem to be prepared for or comfortable with. How have you learned to deal with change?

You know, I think I learned to deal with change pretty early in my life because I went away for college. A lot of people in my school stayed in Texas. I grew up in Dallas, and I embraced change. Like, I was excited to go away for college, excited to meet new people. And same thing. After I left college, I then switched. I went to college in North Carolina, at Duke, and then I switched and went to Seattle to a brand new company hardly heard of back then, Microsoft. And again, I just jumped in with both feet and I found it fun. And I was curious to meet people. So to me, change isn't something to be afraid of. It's more something to embrace and say, oh, okay, here I am. I didn't expect to be in this place in life, but I am now. So, okay, how am I going to make the best of it? And I try to stay open and curious because so often people will come into your life if you have change in a new way or a new place. And I try to stay open and curious, like, oh, what might this person be here to teach me?

Or what can I learn from them? Or can I connect to them in a different way? So I don't know. For me, change is, in a certain way, kind of fun, and I embrace it.

Where did that mindset come from? Because I feel so many people have the opposite experience. Where change is scary, change is daunting. Change is worrying. Identify with how you feel about change. I chose to do pretty drastic things early on in my life, which made me very positive towards change because I had to go against the grain. I had to disagree with people that were close to me. I had to not worry about what people thought about my choices. And so I feel the same way as you do, that I've seen change as a positive thing in my life. But when I speak to people, change is one of the most scariest, worrying things. Where did your positive mindset towards change come from? Was it a family member? Was there something that happened early on in your life where you had a change and you adapted? Well, where did that come from?

I think it probably was my parents. I mean, my parents had both grown up in New Orleans but then had gone away. When my dad went to graduate school, they got married and moved across the country to California. Then they moved back to Dallas. My dad worked on the early Apollo space missions. Talk about change. Nobody had ever gone into space or gone to the moon. And I saw how excited he was, and he was excited about being part of it. And then my parents gave my siblings and me. I'm one of four very middle class family growing up, but they constantly gave us the message, you will be college. Going there wasn't a choice. You will go to college, and it's a matter of where you go. You can go anywhere you want to go in the country. We'll take on the debt, but we highly encourage you to go out of state. We just think you will learn more about yourself and the world if you go out of state. And so I think because they had that mindset, I did choose a college out of state. I went to Duke, North Carolina, and to me, it just became kind of exciting and fun.

And I think if that, at that formative time in life, if you're willing to go somewhere different and try something out, then maybe you're more likely to do it later. And then I never expected ever to have the role that I'm in in philanthropy. But once we started the Gates Foundation, I had the opportunity to travel the world. And not that I wasn't already traveling, but I never would have gone to India. I don't think as many times as I did, or so many different places in Africa started to realize that the more you travel, it's like a book. The more books you read, the more you learn, the more you travel, the more you learn about people, and particularly how similar we are. And so I think my parents ingrained that in me.

That's beautiful. What were your dreams back then? Obviously, your mission is so clear now, and we'll get to that. But I wonder, because when I see the work you've been doing, which is absolutely phenomenal, and the fact that service is your entire life is so inspiring to me, and, you know, something I assume for in my own life, but I wonder, where did your dreams start going? To Duke, obviously an incredible institution in and of itself. Parents who wanted you to study and perform well, we'll talk about going to Microsoft, but what were your dreams back then, when you're going to Duke? Like, what was the sky's the limit, so to speak. What was the sky at the time?

Well, I was lucky that in 8th grade, my parents sent me to a course that my dad had been through, through his work, had just recently sent him called the successful life course, which I kind of think is a little bit of a funny name now when I look back on it. They taught us a couple of things. One was to take quiet time in the morning, and the other was to set goals, like really have goals for your life and don't necessarily share those with the world. Share them with a couple of people you trust. And so I set a goal of going to college. I set a goal during high school of, hey, I realize I actually want to go to college in computer science. So I picked a university that was good at that at the time. And I, I knew I wanted to be a professional working woman eventually with children. And so I think that sort of goal mindset really helped set me on my path to then go on to Duke and then go on eventually to a career at Microsoft.

Who ran this course.

It was a man and a woman. Ed Foreman was the man. And they were down in a southern part of Texas, and you would go off with a cohort of people you didn't know. My sister and I went together. Yeah, you just soaked it in. And they gave us a whole bunch of books to read. We had, you know, we read Dale Carnegie's book on influencing people. Right. And I think at the same time, I mean, again, very formative time in my life, I'm in 8th grade, I'm switching to a new high school. But in high school I had these very liberal nuns. It was an Ursuline academy. It was an all girls catholic school. We got the messages from all of our female teachers. We could be anything we wanted to be in the world. They were incredibly supportive. But the nuns also taught us two things. One was to take time in silence. There was a chapel in the middle of the school, which wasn't a fancy chapel, it was two classrooms. But they were put together. You could go and have this silent time. They would send us off on silent retreats, but they also sent us out to serve.

The motto of the school was servion, that is to serve. And they taught us that one person, just one person, can make the difference in the life of another person. And if you are lucky enough to come to a school like Ursuline and somebody's paying your private tuition, which was my parents, you should serve. And so I served in the local public school 2 miles down the road. And I saw the difference in that public school for those kids versus where I was or the Dallas county courthouse or the local hospital. And so I think those values got embedded very early on.

I love hearing that because those courses sound so close to the kind of programming we offer today. And I always think about just how, even in formal education, you may not be exposed to some of these ideas which seem like everyone should have access to them. And it's incredible that you had a course like that that you went to earlier. And I was going to ask you two questions about that. What have you found is the value of spending that time alone, both from the course and obviously from the nuns that you got in your school? What have you found? Do you still do that? What has been the greatest value that you've gained from that over the last few decades?

I spend time in silence almost every single day. And I just find for me, it's often in the morning before I exercise or get on my phone or whatever, and I just find that that's the time that you, at least for me, that I can hear myself. I can hear in silence those moments of, I made a mistake yesterday. I didn't quite show up the way I wanted to. I wasn't my whole integrated self or, oh, wow, I would really like to show somebody today how grateful I am for them. I haven't. I haven't gotten to do that in the last week. And so that time in quiet for me is just, it's a time to really connect to my soul and to, I hope, integrate all the things that have come over time in my life or in the day before. I also made sure when our kids were growing up that we went around the dinner table and we all said what we were thankful for before we ate our meal. And the only rule was you couldn't criticize what somebody else was thankful for. And ideally, you'd come up with your own.

And even when we'd have tables of teenagers for dinner, everybody did it. And I was always just amazed what came out of their mouth, out of their mouths. And it was just that little moment of gratitude, right? And I think so often, if we can stop and be silent and quiet and hear ourselves, then the gratitude comes. And, boy, does gratitude help you get through a lot of things in life, even hard things.

For sure. For sure. And the second thing you mentioned there was setting your goals. But you shared something really interesting. You talked about how only with the people you trust. And I wanted to ask what was the perception or the reason for that? Because that's really powerful, I think, for people to hear.

So this course that I went to, this successful life course, they said, you know, only share your goals with, you know, a few trusted people, because you're going to have a lot of critics. You're going to have a lot of people that say, no way, you want to go to that university. You can't make that, or you want to be that in life. No, not a chance. But a few trusted people who have your back and have your interest in mind, they will help you meet your goal or find your dream or advance you towards your dream. And I found that to be very true all through life. Actually incredibly important to cultivate those relationships with those trusted people and vice versa, that you become there in their small circle of trust.

Yeah, we make one of two mistakes. We either tell everyone everything or we tell one person everything. So we either want everyone to have all the answers to all of our questions. And you're so right that if we tell everyone our plans, everyone's going to have an opinion about your plan. And that opinion may actually discourage you and disempower you because we're so opened up and exposed to people's opinions about us. And the opposite is also true. That if you only tell one person, that can be really hard as well, because that person may not have the tools or the resources or the experience to guide you. And so having this council of wise advisors or guides or mentors or well wishers and friends can be such a powerful thing. I think when people are setting goals, it's probably one of the biggest mistakes we make today, where we announce it on social media to the whole world, or we tell everyone in our WhatsApp chat or group chat or whatever it may be, and it can be really, really tough. You're fortunate that you gained some of these exposures early on, and they've helped you in your mindset.

What's a lesson that you wish you would have learned earlier? What's a lesson that you learned later on in life that you wish you'd learned earlier?

I have learned so many things later in life. And, you know, I think you also, I have three children. They're now in their twenties, so they're not children anymore. But you learn a lot when you're parenting your children. Like, you may think, oh, I'm a patient person, but you have no idea what patience is until you have children. And until you really are trying to pass your values on, you have to really kind of sit with, okay, what are my values? I thought I knew them, but am I living them so that I can pass them on? I would say one lesson I learned later in life was that the world really isn't built for everybody, you know? What does that mean? I kind of assumed when I left, I was in such a supportive environment in high school with this all girls school, that when I went out to university, I just met so many different people of different walks of life, which was fantastic and widening, and it helped me grow. But then when you go out in your professional career, I just began to see so many blocks for women and people of color where I just assumed when we left university we would have the same opportunities as men, or even as I traveled for the foundation, I just assumed if we were getting a new technology out in a community, it went to the men and women equally.

That was just a completely false assumption. And I think I didn't realize how the world had been, maybe inadvertently, but set up for men, and I had to go back and learn some history to understand how did we get where we are to say, okay, well, how could we start to maybe accelerate some of that change?

What was the first experience you had in your life? Like you said, you had none, saying to you, you can be anything you want and opportunities are available. You had that training. When was the first time you had personal experience of, oh, I don't actually have the same types of opportunities as men?

Well, when I went into computer science at Duke, there were some women freshman year, but by sophomore year there was me and maybe a couple of others. And I realized that a lot of the young men freshman year were better trained than I was in computer science. So they were already coming in a step up, which is why we lost so many women. I was trained well enough, thank God, that I could persist and keep my self esteem up to move through and to continue on. But I just started to realize part of the reason we don't have more women in computer science. And look how important technology has become in our society. We still don't have nearly enough women in the tech sector creating products. It's because we haven't offered the right. There are many reasons, but we haven't, for instance, offered the right classes to young women so that when they go to college, their confidence is up. They've programmed as much as young men. Or that opening fragment, freshman class is a creative class, not just a coding tech class. So we just, we have whole industries, for instance, in the United States that just are not as welcoming to women.

Politics in our own country is not at all welcoming to women. I mean, women get harassed on the campaign trails so much more than men, and they will tell you if they want to run their campaign say they want to become a state senator. They have to have had a certain amount of money to do that, which is why men usually will have more money by a certain point in their life saved up to be able to run, or a buddy will come in and will fund their buddy to be in politics. So there are just many places where there are roadblocks and barriers for women and people of color that dont necessarily exist for a white man. And I think we need to look at those and take some of them down so everybody can rise up into positions of power, use their full creativity.

Yeah. You said you had to go back and study history a little bit to look at how that had transpired. What were some of the key moments or key points of history that you think were worthy of studying for people to look back at and educate themselves on that you think would be valuable?

Well, for sure, the US constitution. I mean, there were no women in the room writing the constitution. There are no black people in the room writing the constitution. If you try to imagine what we might have devised with other people at the table, you know, and not counted women as you can't vote or you're not smart enough to vote, or black people as slaves and so not worthy, you would have created a society if the right people were at the table, you'd have created a society that was probably more equal for everybody. And so, you know, going back and looking at that piece of history or looking at, I just, I couldn't understand, as I would go out for the foundation and meet so many women in so many communities in Africa or Southeast Asia who knew about contraceptives and had had them and no longer did. And they kept saying, why? Why don't we have them? You have them in your country. Why don't we have them? We used to. And as I had to literally learn the history of contraceptives around the world, what had happened with those, and even where my own religion, I grew up Catholic, where the Catholic Church had not wanted women to have contraceptives and blocked even funding for that, and yet we know that if a woman has access to contraceptives, she's healthier, her family, her kids are healthier and the family's wealthier, and it lifts them out of poverty.

And so I had to learn that whole history before I was willing to say, okay, am I going to step into this very controversial issue? I'm Catholic. I have a deep faith, but what's the right way to step in also that maintains my integrity and what I've seen but could potentially move this issue forward because it literally is a life and death situation, often for women if they have their children too close together and their bodies aren't ready.

Hey, everyone, it's Jay here. My wife and I have had so much fun creating our own sparkling tea, Junie and I've got big news for you. It's at Target, and we'd love your support. If you can go out, grab a journey, you'll be adding adaptogens and nootropics into your life with mood boosting properties aimed at promoting a balanced and happy mind. Through our commitment to our wellness journey and striving to fuel our bodies with the healthiest ingredients, it's been our purpose to make healthy choices accessible for all, which is why Joonie is now on shelves at Target. So head to our store, locator@drinkjuny.com and find Juni at a target near you. How did you navigate that? It sounds like such a, you know, kind of challenging situation, with your personal values and beliefs historically mixed in with the research you're doing. How do you walk those difficult paths? Because to me, that's often where we all find ourselves. Like, I don't think there's that much clarity. It's not always black and white. It's not always easy. It's not always like, this is the obvious path. Although we may try and make it that way sometimes.

Often there's so much more complexity in even trying to change the world or having a positive impact in the world. How do you tread that carefully? Also recognizing that there'll still be backlash.

So this was all around 2011 and 2012, when I knew we needed to have more contraceptives in the world. We needed to further this issue. And I knew the foundation could play a role in that. And I started to realize that probably my voice in that would make a difference as a female. And I will be honest, I was terrified, terrified to speak out on this issue. Yes, I was using contraceptives. Yes, I was educating my children about their bodies and what they should do long term. But to step out on the world stage and say, this is what I believe and know, I would be attacked by my own church. As a little girl, where I sat in the pews and saw who was at the top of the church, that wasn't something I wanted. And so I had to do several things. One is, I took a lot of time and quiet to think about, what do I believe? Why would I do this? What are the ramifications for me? My children, my parents, my family, what are the ramifications for the foundation? Who can I have support me that will help me learn and maybe do this in the right way?

I also went back and questioned my faith a lot. I started listening to a very liberal catholic priest, Richard Rohrer, in his writings. That was incredibly helpful to me to realize you could push against some of that, some of those manmade rules. And I listened to a lot and read a lot of Brene Brown's work. Daring greatly was hugely helpful to me because I literally felt like I'm just going to step off a precipice and talk about this issue. And I did eventually get attacked by the catholic church and attacked from both the left and the right. But it was okay. And the reason it was okay was one I had already talked to my kids about it, talked to my parents, the people I cared about the most, but also I knew what I had seen in the developing world. I knew what women were asking me, and I knew this tool made a difference in their life. And so how could I have this platform and be in this position and them be willing to share their lives and their stories with me and me not use my voice that didn't make any sense.

I really wrestled with all of that for probably 1012 months before I then was willing to come out. And again, I had a group of small group of female friends around that I said, oh, I'm gonna do this and it's gonna be scary, but I could sort of talk it through and work it through, right? And then when you take that one courageous step and then it does start to snowball and it goes better than you think in some ways, worse in some ways than you thought, but okay, then you're not. As if, at least for me, I wasn't afraid then for other courageous steps I needed to take in my life later on.

Yeah, I think there's so much wisdom, the idea that, first of all, knowing who you are and what matters to you at a very core level, I think a lot of us sometimes do things because we think they look good or they might work out or someone will. But knowing that, I feel this is important and it matters to me. I love the idea of what you're saying, of speaking to your friends, the people around you, and recognizing that it's not all, oh, it's going to be great and everyone's going to love it. No, actually, there are going to be consequences, ramifications, challenges. And then the idea that it took you ten to twelve months, I love hearing that because I think we often think that our best decisions or big decisions are instant and we know it, and you kind of flow in the moment. But often we have to sit with these things and see how they sit with us in silence across a period of time.

Definitely.

And so I love hearing all of that. I think that's really valuable. You've talked about, you know, tell me about your experiences with imposter syndrome, because I can imagine even when you're trying to make these changes, and maybe even earlier on in life, maybe. What was your earliest experience of imposter syndrome?

Oh, gosh. Probably at the foundation, probably the first ten years of the foundation's life, I felt like an imposter. Here I am. I'm a computer scientist. I knew that background. I had gone to business school, so I knew economics. But here we are in a whole different field. I mean, I am literally, it's a whole second career for me. I'm learning about biology. I'm trying to understand from people in global health what can be done. I'm learning from doctors, I'm learning from community health workers on the ground. But I just. I didn't feel like I could ever know enough to speak credibly on this topic because I didn't go to school in global health. I wasn't a doctor. But it took some time. And again, someone actually inside the foundation who was working for me at the time, came to me and wanted me to speak out on something. And I said, no, no, I don't feel like I know enough. And this woman said to me, she said, are you kidding? Just look at all the traveling you have done. Like, go back and let's look at all the trips you've done and all the knowledge you've amassed.

She said, how many people have ever had done that kind of travel in that way, to be in these communities and to be at the tables where the scientists, I could come back and scientists would explain things to me, and I could ask, and I thought, oh, my gosh, I guess I do know enough. And I'll never know everything. No one will ever know anything, everything on the history of the earth, but I know enough to know what I know deeply, at a core, core level, and to speak those truths. And I started to realize there would be value in a woman doing that, because I could speak on behalf of so many of these women that I had met and who'd invited me into their homes or shown me the tough circumstances of their lives. And I thought, okay, I've just got to go to get over this. If they've spoken to me. I need to speak their truths in the world. And so, again, I think the first Brene Brown book I ever picked up was the gifts of imperfection. And I learned to embrace all these places in me that I do see as imperfect, I still see as imperfect.

I am an imperfect person. You're an imperfect person. We all are. But to embrace those parts of myself instead of push them away and say, but I'm probably enough. I'm still enough to be this messenger.

Yeah. What advice would you give to people who are listening or watching and have that imposter syndrome? It's so easy to. There's goodness in that belief, like I've always found that. But when I do doubt myself, there's actually beauty in that because it's a humility and accepting that I don't know there's a goodness in accepting that I don't have everything figured out. I actually think we often play down that so much today, we make it sound like it's terrible to have imposter syndrome. But to me, anyone who has a conscience or a reflection mechanism will feel that pretty much whenever they grow into a new phase. So I find it very useful to display to me what's missing, what I've not learned yet, what I need to study, what I need to become educated about, focus on. How would you guide and advise people who are sitting here listening to us and they're thinking, Melinda, I don't feel like I'm enough. I feel like I'm not well placed. I don't know enough. I'm not good enough. I'm not. Whatever else it may be, how would you guide them through that?

Well, I think it's what you said. You have to actually see the beauty in the imperfections. Somebody one time gave me a heart that had all of these sort of holes in it, in a funny way. And I was going through something really tough. And she's part of my spiritual group. I'm also in a spiritual group, non denominational spiritual group, and she gave it to me and she said, melinda, this is probably like your heart right now. Like, you thought it was kind of perfect. But no, it's imperfect. But it's those holes and those difficult places that have formed you into who you are now as a person. And so I would say to people, start by looking at what messages you grew up with in your home. What messages are you getting in your workplace? What messages are society giving you? And are those possibly not true? And start to say to yourself, yes, there are places in me that are imperfect. And I agree with you. I think looking at those helps us remain humble and not narcissistic or in our egoic self, and embracing those and saying, but there's beauty in those, and what can I learn from them?

But I do think once you embrace those parts of yourself, at least for me, I just know I feel more integrated and more like a whole person. Right. And then sometimes you also need to go back and make amends. There are times where you've really made some mistakes or said something hurtful to someone. And once you embrace those pieces, going back and making amends also, I think, again, helps you feel better about your core self, because then you are living even more in the truth and the beauty of who you hopefully want to be.

What else do you do in your spiritual group, and how did you, what is, what does that look like as people? I'm sure listening and watching, you also want to have a spiritual group, a community, a tribe. What does that look like? What do you do and how does it function?

Yeah. So there are eight of us women that are in this group. We formed it in 2001. At the time, we all had small children going through school, and we were of different religions. Actually, one or two were just, came from no religion at all. And we just agreed that we would meet monthly, second Wednesday of the month, and we would pick a reading or a book, and we would all be with it, sit with it, read it, whatever it was. We all committed to taking some time in silence every day, even if it was only ten minutes, and then coming to the group and having it be a trusted circle where we could share our innermost thoughts about that spiritual reading, about something going on in our life. It just became a group that became central to my life, and I would say vice versa. I know these women incredibly well, and their trials and tribulations and losing a parent or not sure how the marriage is going to go, or, gosh, I didn't parent very well in that moment, or here's where something has touched me deeply in my life nature. And then we go on a silent retreat at least once a year, and we're in silence, usually for two or three days.

Sometimes we'll have a leader come and guide us through that. Other times, we've done it enough now that we kind of go on our own, but it's just a place of deep, close community where I would say, we can touch one another's souls and touch our own souls.

Wow. And you've been doing that since 2001? Wow.

That's for 20 years.

Yeah, that's unbelievable.

The Therapy for Black Girls podcast is an NAACP and Webby award winning podcast dedicated to all things mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves. Here we have the conversations that help black women decipher how their past inform who they are today and use that information to decide who they want to be moving forward. We chat about things like how to establish a routines that center self care, what burnout looks and feels like, and defining what aspects of our lives are making us happy and what parts are holding us back. I'm your host, doctor Joy Hardin Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia, and I can't wait for you to join the conversation. Every Wednesday, listen to the therapy for Black Girls podcast on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcast. Take good care and we'll see you there.

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What. What is with a community like that? How do you select who gets to be a part of it? Because I guess life was very different 23 years ago. Everyone goes through so many different evolutions of life and phases. How do you pick who stays, who leaves, who goes and build that together? How does that work?

Well, at the time that we formed the group, we didn't all know each other, so there was connective tissue between, I would say, three of us who then brought in others into the group. And we formed enough trust over time that we knew that the information wouldn't go outside the group. You didn't go tell your spouse, or certainly your children or your mother. And we had one hiccup with one person in the group who just over time, that person, it was clear, wanted to spin out. And so she did. That was okay. But it just became this place of trust and life lessons and sort of milestones. We've been through so much together, and I wouldn't say that we all are best friends. Like, some of us are closer than others or the groups reform based on somebody losing a parenthood, but we're just there for each other, like, we have each other's backs. And it's. It was when I was thinking about coming out on these, on talking about contraceptives and being a bit more public for the foundation, which I hadn't been before I talked it through with this group first. They were one of the first places I said, I'm gonna do this, and I am terrified.

I'm absolutely terrified. And I knew they could almost be a trust counsel for me to tell me the truth of. Well, look here, be careful there. Know you're gonna be okay. And it's almost like we kind of grew up together.

That's beautiful. And these are all peers. They're just at the time, they're just people you're meeting. Because I think often we feel like we have to be surrounded by everyone who's ten years ahead of us and 15 years ahead of us, and everyone has to be a mentor. But we underestimate just how much our peers and the people that are going through life at the same time, at the same pace are so powerful in our lives. And we underestimate the people that are almost around us.

We do sometimes, and, you know, many of the women in this group are maybe five or six years older than I am. But you also don't know, like, one of them that's very close to me in age. Her husband was one of my best friends, and we lost him at age 37. I mean, who expects that, you know, and you're in your thirties, and you lose. She loses her husband, I lose one of my best friends. So these moments also, I think, form you and, you know, help shape who you become. So, yeah, it doesn't always have to be somebody older. And in fact, because my youngest daughter, I had the youngest of all the children in the group, my last one was the youngest. I ended up also, though not in my spiritual group, but with other friends then who were younger than me. And that was lovely, too. There's a lot of wisdom there. And, you know, I have three other siblings. I am extraordinarily close to my brother, who's ten years younger than me. There's so much wisdom there. So I think it has much more to do with is the person on a growth path.

Right. And then can we mutually learn from one another?

Absolutely. You've talked about having an addiction to perfection, and I think that's something that a lot of us deal with. What's your relationship with perfectionism now?

Well, it was awful.

How bad was it?

It was terrible.

Walk us through. What would it look like?

You know, dressing right, saying the right thing at even, like, a dinner party or a cocktail party or something like this. What if I messed up and said the wrong thing on a podcast? Oh, my gosh. So it was horrible. It was absolutely horrible. It was zapping my energy, and it was driving the people around me. I finally realized crazy, too, like, somebody who would help prepare me for something at the foundation. If I was going on a trip, I was grabbing all these facts and figures, and it just was so unnecessary. And so when I finally really looked at it and again read this book on gifts of imperfection and started to write down all the places that was coming up in my life or start to notice it, like, oh, my gosh. Before I leave my closet, I'm, you know, it's taking me ten extra minutes. How silly is that? Like, I could have ten minutes to go be in silence or be with my kids or. And so as soon as I started to identify all the places, I could break them down, and it doesn't mean it doesn't still come up.

I was going to a very small dinner party last week with a couple that I really respected but didn't know. Well. And I was going with two other girlfriends, and literally the hour before that, I went to get a bit of time and quiet, and I realized that feeling of not knowing enough was coming up. That perfectionist, oh, I need to know this. What if they asked me this about the foundation? Oh, my gosh. And then I just was like, no, stop. Just stop. I'm going to be enough. And there'd be some things I can't answer tonight that I for, you know, I forgot that particular statistic, you know, because I haven't been in that country in a while, but so what? Once you can start to let it go. And again, I could just say, okay, well, I'll just be myself, then it, then it's fine.

Yeah. And how do you stop that recurring voice that judges you, criticizes you, maybe even afterwards says to you, oh, you shouldn't have forgotten that statistic. Oh, if you would have said this, then imagine how it would have gone. I think it's hard enough to quiet the voice before you go, let alone the voice that comes afterwards that kind of puts you down even further and says, you could have done so much better. You should have done better. And especially as someone who's come from a high performing college and job and everything else, like, how is that, how has your relationship with that voice evolved?

I used to get that so much after an event or something I'd done, it almost never comes up anymore. It maybe comes up, maybe how I stopped judging myself. And when I stop, and I also stopped judging other people when I learned to not judge other people, I realized you have to look at when you judge somebody else and your fingers pointed this way. You know, like Byron, Katie says, there's three fingers pointing this way. And so I realized if I had a judgment about, even, say, a friend, right? Well, gosh, I needed to look at is that judgment really about them or is it about me? And so often the thing I might be picking on in my mind about them was actually about me. And so I had to learn to say to myself, okay, what is it in myself that I don't like? And can I just be okay with that? And so, boy, I, believe me, I've made so many mistakes. My kids tease me all the time. I'm terrible with people's names, and yet it's a sign of respect. I think if you use somebody's name, they have endless stories about how I made up, you know, how I messed up their high school friends names.

But it's okay. I was trying to be respectful I'm human. And it hu, and I also think the more I can humanize myself in front of other people, the more I take down the barrier between me and them. And we can see we are just humans, right?

Mm hmm. Absolutely. Absolutely.

Do you judge yourself? Do you later say to yourself, oh, I should have said this. I should have said that.

I think it took me a long time to get to a point of giving myself grace and not making myself feel that I had to be anyone else apart from myself and that the perfect performance wasn't actually satisfying to me. It just gave me more to have to live up to. And so when I first started doing what I do, it felt like in every room, in every conversation, I had to say something magical and miraculous and profound. And often I'd say something very basic, yet it would feel that way. And sometimes I'd say the most profound thing and it would be seen as basic. And I started to realize very quickly that if you were spending most of the time in your head just trying to figure out how to be a certain way or come across a certain way, which is what all of us do, you actually lose the opportunity to be present and have the experience and probably say something and hear things that actually have an impact on other people because you're actually there. And so it was learning to trust myself and trust that whether I knew the right thing to say or I didn't know that that was perfect just as it was.

But I think that, that grace is something we have to develop and cultivate and build because it's so natural. I was just, I was just at Goldman Sachs on Monday. We were doing a talks at Goldman Sachs, and it was all around the benefits of mindfulness mixed with a high performance culture. And so it's like, how does that work if you're a high performing trader? What does it mean to practice mindfulness and grace? There's not a lot of space for grace. If you're losing $20 million or whatever else it may be and 200 million, it could be so much more. So what does that look like to give yourself grace? And I think we equate grace to weakness. We think if I'm kind to myself, then that's weakness. And actually, I found that guilt blocks growth for sure. That guilt doesn't make you grow. Guilt can maybe make you feel bad for a second and push you in the right direction. But over a sustained period of time, guilt will drain you totally. And so I think Grace does what guilt can't. It says, I'm going to give some space to where I'm at so that I can get back on the horse.

Whereas if I just guilt myself, I'm going to keep pushing myself down into the ground. I'll never get back up.

My thinking on guilt is that sometimes it can point to where you're off of your integrated self, and it's very important to pay attention to. So for me, when it comes up in silence, I try to really look at, okay, was I off of who I want to be? Grace is one of my absolute favorite words. And it's something that in difficult situations, I actually pray for, like I will pray for. Just bring some grace to this moment, whatever that means. And I think so often, again, I think sometimes if we're trying to say the right thing or do the right thing or not say the wrong thing, we're kind of actually in that egoic part of ourselves as a point, as opposed to saying, just let Grace come through, whatever is meant to be, let it happen in this moment. And I will say, for me, because I have traveled a lot to these rural settings, low income countries and communities, I will often pray for grace before I go in and for the conversation, to try and drop any judgments I have. So I can just meet the person where they are at and they can meet me.

And I can see, is there something that can come out of this, of beauty, a learning that maybe we can work on or they can work on? But, yeah, Grace is actually one of my absolute favorite words.

I love that. How hard was it, give yourself grace through the divorce? Because I feel like that feels like, for a lot of people, can feel like one of the biggest failures, challenges, stresses. It's one of the hardest transitions and changes that you go through in life. How hard was it at that time to give yourself grace? What did that look like?

Yeah, I am. That was the hardest thing I had ever been through in my life. Let me be really clear about that. Well, you have an image. I thought I was going to be married for life. I thought I'd be married 50 plus years. And so all of a sudden you see that even despite very, very much work and counseling, that what you had doesn't actually exist. And that for me, I couldn't go forward, that I just. There wasn't enough trust any longer. And so it wasn't something I wished for. I certainly didn't think I would be in my late fifties and be divorced. It was okay that people were divorced. I didn't have some problem with that, but I didn't know that was going to be me, and it was incredibly challenging. I've never cried so much in my whole life. And I prayed a lot for grace, for grace, for myself, for grace, for my children, for grace, for the situation that we would somehow get through this as a family, behind the scenes, and hope to God it wouldn't be public before we were finished, because I knew that would be a whole nother thing.

And I think sometimes the only way I got through is because I do have a faith and thank God I had close, close friends who I could talk to on the hardest days and a good therapist. But it is not something I would wish on any family. It is a very, very difficult thing to go through because you're pulling apart something that has been tightly woven together and that you believed in. And I will say, though, on the other side, there can be a lot of beauty. You know, once you get through the rough patches and things finally kind of calm down for the whole family and everybody on the other side, there can be a lot of beauty. So I never thought I'd be in my late fifties. I'm about to turn 60 and be single again, right? Who expects that? But I didn't. But, hey, it's pretty great, too, you know? And so I look for. I just. I look in the hardest of hard times, I say to myself, just pray for grace and know there'll be something that comes out of this struggle. I'd read a book years ago, many years ago, called Awakening Joy by James Baraz and Shoshana Alexander.

And one of the things I had learned from that book, I carried it around in my briefcase for years, or my tote bag, is that you can hold joy and sadness side by side. I had somehow gotten to that point in life, you know, in my forties, where I had thought, oh, there are these amazing joy moments or these really sad, low moments. No, you can hold both side by side and realize that even when you're really sad, there's going to be joy again. It might take ten minutes, it might take ten months, it might take ten years, but there's joy, and both exist. And I started to learn to be able to hold that duality.

Yeah, it's. It's so interesting to me. I was. I was speaking to someone yesterday who'd just broken up with a five year relationship, not. Not married, just a partner. And they were saying to me, they were like, I. I know there'll be better days, but I can't see how right now. Like, I know it, but I can't see how right now. And I think that that discomfort is probably one of the most piercing emotions that you can have, because sometimes people even go as far as, there'll never be another good day. But sometimes we can see there's a good day, but we don't know when. Walk me through the emotion of when you know something is ending and your vision of what something was is crumbling, and you don't know what that next phase looks like. Walk us through the emotional navigation of that, because I feel like. Like that's what so many people struggle with, people. It's one thing being like, okay, this is ending now. But there's so much when that penny drops, almost like when that emotion drops from your head to your heart, like, okay, I know this is not working out anymore, but then it kind of goes here, and you go, oh, that's really uncomfortable.

And then you actually have to follow through with it. Walk us through navigating that. What does that take?

Something that makes me crazy is when people say, well, I had this career before, but it was a waste. And that's where the perspective shift comes, that it's not a waste, that everything you've done has built you to where you are now. This is she pivots, the podcast where we explore the inspiring pivots women have made and dig deeper into the personal reasons behind them. Join me. Emily Tisch Sussman every Wednesday on she pivots as I sit down with inspiring women like Misty Copeland, Brooke Shields, Vanessa Hudgens, and so many more, we dive into how these women made their pivot and their mindset shifts that happened as a result. It's a podcast about women, their stories, and how their pivot became their success. Listen to she pivots on the iHeartRadio app Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts on his new podcast, six degrees with Kevin Bacon. Join Kevin for inspiring conversations with celebrities who are working to make a difference in the world, like musical artist jewell.

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With me, Radhi Devlukia in my new podcast, a really good cry. We're going to talk about and go through all the things that are sometimes difficult to process alone. We're going to go over how to regulate your emotions, diving deep into holistic personal development, and just building your mindset to have a happier, healthier life. We're gonna be talking with some of my best friends.

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I have had to learn that last ten years, I would say, to really feel deeply, feel my emotions in my body. Like that emotion you just described from here to, it's not working. To drops, as you said, into your heart, and I gotta make a change. It literally felt like a stab in the heart. Like, I could feel it here, like. And so I. I just knew it was something. It was such a. Such an enormous, consequential decision that I needed to take time with it and I needed to be kind to myself. I didn't want to. I wanted to minimize, if I could, the pain to those around me. But it's just. It's gut wrenching. That's probably the best. It feels like a stab in the heart, at least to me, a stab in the heart and gut wrenching because it's not what you want to do, but that's when I think your friends come in and they are the lights and the moments of grace. And they can hold out for you and remind you the hope on the other side. You're going to be okay. I knew I was going to be okay, but I'm sure there's gonna be something beautiful on the other side, even though none of us know what that is.

What's something you know now that you wish you knew?

Then you will find happiness again. You know, you can feel like, I had days where I thought, I don't know if I'll ever be happy again. I just. I don't know. You will absolutely find happiness. And you'll find happiness in sometimes really unexpected ways or unexpected places. Right. And. I don't know. At least you learn, at least for me, I learn to appreciate the world more, appreciate my friends more and my family more, being in nature. Yeah. So you'll be happy again. You just can't feel it in the moment.

Thank you. Yeah. No, I really hope that everyone who's listening and watching that resonates with them and being able to find that grace, being able to navigate those challenging emotions, feeling it in their body, because. Yeah. It's just when you hear someone say it, when they're actually going through it. Yeah. It's one of those things where even your closest friends don't even know the right things to say because.

And sometimes there isn't the right thing to say. I mean, it's also like when someone passes away. Right. Sometimes you just need somebody to walk with you or somebody to just cry with you, you know? And there are no words. But I always know, too, when my friends step in. In those moments, I will step in for them or for somebody else. Right. Later on. And so again, I learned through the process that you actually have to accept help. Right. I wasn't so great at that. I was good at helping other people, but not so good at accepting it myself. And I had to learn to accept that help because it isn't something I could go through alone. I think sometimes we make the mistake in the world of thinking I'll soldier on. I can do this alone. No, I mean, we can only really do things in community. And it takes community to feel held and secure and safe enough to move forward in whatever it is we're doing. Our professional pursuit, our love life, our parenting of our children, if we're going to do it well, it takes community.

Yeah. What was the most recent thing you asked help for?

I was struggling with something about a week ago, and so it's personal, though. And so I asked a friend to go for a walk and she said, could we walk and talk? Like I have something I really need to work through here. Yeah. So I'll pick up a phone, call a friend, say, can we go for a walk? Or I'll text somebody. Right. And, you know, we have ways of telling each other, can you drop everything? Versus, okay, this can wait till tomorrow, you know, but for sure, I do it all the time and I hope I'm there and have the backs of my friends as well.

So. Wonderful. I wanted to dive into some of the issues that you're focusing right now through the work that you think are the biggest issues facing the world from your perspective. If you had to, if you could narrow it down to three things that you're like, these are the three things we're trying to solve right now which would have scaled impact, what would they be and what are they?

I'd say it's really one thing and it's making sure that women and people of color can walk into their full power everywhere in the world world. And we need to get women and people of color to all places in society, whether that's in politics, because they make different policies, state houses, congress, parliaments. We need to make sure they're empowered financially. We, you know, we do not invest in women led businesses or people of color businesses the way we do in male businesses, white men's businesses. That's just the truth in the VC community. And then culturally, we need to have more of those stories come forward. I feel like if we don't advance the world on behalf of everybody else, we're gonna just keep falling backwards. We're gonna keep falling backwards into these potholes that we have. And so I would like to see, you know, more women be able to step in their full power everywhere in the world. And it does, it's hard. It means breaking down social norms in certain places. It means investing in women led businesses. It means thinking about things differently in the workplace. But I think the world would be so much better off if the people making our policies looked like the rest of society, all of society.

So in the US, that means having more latinas who are there, more people of color who are making policy, more women making policy. We would just reflect more all of society instead of a certain echelon of society. And it's still, for instance, just to give you one example, I go places in the world and people just kind of scratch their head and say, the US has no paid family medical leave policy, no family leave policy. Like, don't you care about your children? And then you go to a place like Sweden or Norway who've had it for 30 years. And it's not just the women. The men take time off at the birth of their child. Well, guess what? Then they participate more. They're more involved with the child. Things are more balanced, the home and so. But it's because we don't have enough women in our US Congress and Senate and other places to be able to create those policies. Right? We have them in 13 states now, but we don't have a federal policy yet that just shouldn't be, not in this day of working parents, where most couples, both parents are working if they have kids.

And systemically, what does it actually take, like, to actually achieve that? Like, what does, what is the actual work that has to go on behind the scenes to make that happen? Because I think we only ever hear about it if it becomes news. Like you're saying if someone gets voted in or someone gets a position of power. But what's happening years and years and days and days behind the scenes to make that happen, like, what does that actually take?

It means there are lots of groups that organize and work on this, but it means funding women's political campaigns, supporting them when they get harassed on the campaign trail, giving them the tools so that when they get into these halls of power, they know how to make good policy. Right. In the past, we just have not done that. We haven't done it at scale. So that's one example in the venture capital space. It means really looking at women's businesses and seeing just because they don't look like the other businesses we've seen. These are valuable businesses or people of color. But we have to break down the bias that has been there that says, oh, well, you don't take enough risk. Or, I've never seen a business like this before, or maybe you're not trained up in the right way. We have all these sort of biased excuses. Instead of saying, no, let's fund these businesses. And then what happens is you'll have women and people of color. If you have them in all places in society, at the top, it means a young woman can look up and say, oh, there's three dozen archetypes of women who are politicians.

There are three dozen archetypes of women CEO's. I don't want to be like those six, but I want to be like one of those two young men can look up and see three dozen archetypes in politics. Three dozen archetypes as CEO, three dozen archetypes on Wall street, right? And go, I don't want to be like those guys, but I want to be like those. We're just not there yet. And so we've got to invest more in this if we're going to create true, lasting change in the country.

Yeah, no, I can. I mean, definitely speaking from the person of color point of view, like, I can. I never was. I was never raised with that belief system that there were any things that were outside of my possibility. My parents were very. My parents never made us feel that our color of skin would hold us back. And so we worked hard, we pushed forward, and it was only until much, much later, probably more recently, where I started to realize certain and differences. And it was almost as if I. Not that I'd hidden my. Not that they were hidden from me or that I wasn't aware of them. It was just I started to recognize how differently even sometimes I was criticized or looked at versus counterparts who may not have that. Like, I would often hear things like, you know, well, Jay's using his culture of meditation to make it spread across the world, and that's watered down, and it's not the truth of his tradition or whatever it may be. And I was like, wait a minute. But this is my tradition like this. I grew up with this. I'm only sharing what's actually from my home country and where my parents came from.

How fascinating that there have been other people who have taken that culture and spread it all across the world and never had to deal with that feedback, whereas that's feedback that I have to deal with. And it sounded very random and niche, but that point being the same, that sometimes you're held to a different standard.

You are. There's just.

Even though it is your own totally.

And they're just. It's bias or it's people projecting onto you because they haven't seen somebody like you before. Like, and so they'll. And there'll be, I think, a lot as a woman, I'll say a lot of time, it's these sort of little indirect ways that things come in. No, you can't. No, you shouldn't. No, we've never seen one like you before. And so I think if we somewhat. I was lucky. I got protected being an all girls school, but it wasn't until I went out to the workforce and I hear even men talk about these days, look, I've educated my daughters and sons equally in schools, but then I send them out into the workforce and my son sort of soars pretty easily, and my daughter just keeps hitting these barriers. Right. And so those are some of the things we have to look at as a society and take down.

Have you ever heard anything from your own kids that felt like that, where you're like, oh, no.

Like, less so, them specifically, but their friends, for sure. For sure. Particularly their friends of color. And my sense of that was always just to support them and tell those kids, you can be anything you want to be just because that white person tells you, no, I see you. You've been in my house. I see you. I know what you're capable of. Keep going. Right. Or also, I think some men are more networked in the world. They're more natural networks they connect into. So again, sending girls out or kids of color and connecting them into our networks so they get that first internship. So the corporation sees them as like, oh, my God, they are talented, right? But there aren't those natural networks to connect them into today, or we have to push harder to get them in. Right. And I think all of those kinds of things can help.

What are the top three values that you wanted your kids to embody that you felt were real priorities for them to operate as humans in the world today?

I wanted them to be kind. I wanted them to develop their talents, whatever that was, because I said to them, you have some inherent talent that is up to you to figure out that you can give to the world whatever field that is in. And number three, you've been lucky to grow up in the United States and to grow up in a situation where you didn't have to worry about paying for your education or your healthcare, your housing. Like, you are lucky. So you have something you have to give back to the world. So just as my parents said to me, you will be college going. My kids got the message is, you will give back to the world. Now, I've always said to them, have your own career first. Know what you're good at. But at some point, you are expected to give back. I've actually been pleasantly surprised that all of them, even in their twenties, have figured out how to give back in different ways. And again, it goes back to that thing that I learned in high school, which is, we can all, one of us can affect somebody else's life.

Right? If you grow up in the United States, you are lucky. Even in a tough circumstance in the United States, you're lucky compared to way people grew up in many other countries.

How did you guide them through the process of growing up with such famous parents and known parents, because I've. That's a really hard thing, like to grow up where everyone knows who your parents are, everyone recognizes your name, everyone. How have you helped them navigate that? Because I can imagine that's not easy at all.

It was. It was difficult for them, and I knew it was going to be difficult when they were young. Well, two things. One is we didn't have the tv on in the house, so they literally didn't know. In fact, their father was kind of who he was in the world. He was just dad in the house, you know, and I was not outspeaking in the world that much then. And so we enrolled them in their schools under my name, my maiden name, French, and it would give us two to three weeks where I would be dropping them off at school. And they were just like everybody else. Nobody knew their dad was who he was. And it wasn't until he showed up that people went, oh, those are his kids. But by then, they were already in the school, and they were just. We were seen as a normal family.

So that was done intentionally, super intentionally.

And I would sit down with the administration before the school year and talk about the values we had, and I expected them to be treated like everybody else's kids. And if my kids were acting out, I wanted to know about it, or if they were acting wealthy. I went to school, I went to university with other wealthy kids, and I wasn't. I saw how some of those kids acted. Those weren't going to be kids. So that's how they started elementary school. And then as they got to middle school and high school, we would have conversations with them about, would you like to keep your mom's name or would you like to adopt Gates? And different ones chose different things of the three of them at different times. But we just didn't make a big deal about what we were out doing in the world, you know, their world. They were very protected by their schools and by our home life. Yes, they grew up in a very fancy house, but, you know, they had chores. They knew that they were. They had an allowance. We didn't just buy them something. And when they finally got to the age where they had a phone, if they broke their phone, there were rules about how that got replaced.

We just didn't give them a new phone. Right. So they grew up with that. And I think it taught them the value of money. It taught them that, okay. They could see when. When also, when I was out speaking more, they knew why. They could see what their dad was doing. Especially in philanthropy, rather than, oh, my parents are living out their values in the world, but they were very protected by their schools, and I think that served them incredibly well.

How old were they when they got their first phone?

So my oldest daughter, the conversation was about a flip phone, and that was in fifth grade, and she finally got it in 6th.

Okay.

And the difference between when she went through high school then versus my youngest, which was six years later through the same high school, two girls because son in the middle, but the two girls, the difference between not having social media in high school and my oldest went through and then my youngest having social media by middle school, just profoundly different in terms of parenting. It was just, it was like a switch went on. And even the adults in the school having a phone, it was just so different. But we did have rules early on. You know, they plugged their phones outside their room at night where I could see them. And when I'd wake up at night and go, look, that phone better be in the place that it was supposed to be. Now, whether they snuck it back to the room for a few minutes and brought it back, I've now learned a couple of them did that. But, you know, we had rules about those things, and I think that that served them well.

How do we. How do we create a culture of giving in service? Melinda? Because I think some people would look and say, oh, it's easy to do it when you have billions to give away or, you know, millions to give away or whatever else it may be. And I remember in my spiritual tradition, one statement that I always used to love is God doesn't see how much you give. God sees how much you hold back. And it was this idea of, you know, and I've always appreciated that sentiment because. And I found so I had parents who were very giving, even though our household income for me growing up was no more than, like, 50,000 pounds. And my parents were still very charitable in the way they could be. And it set a really good tone for me. And then when I lived as a monk, we did a lot of service work. And that has continued in my life afterwards as well. And that continues to be an important part of my wife and I's life of wanting to give back, wanting to serve. But I think it's hard because so many people are struggling financially, so many people are struggling economically.

There are far less opportunities that people have to even take care of themselves. The prices of rent, you know, soaring through the roof like healthcare in this country, of course, is, you know, the biggest concern and so I think what you were saying earlier is that people who have opportunities and have the privilege to give should give. But I think often we can sit in the thing of, well, when I have a million or a billion or whatever, maybe then I'll give. How do we shift that? Like, what does that look like?

I think you can. There are different ways to give. You can give your time, your energy, or your money or any combination of those. So I think there's value in high school kids and even middle schools going out and volunteering. You know, my two of my three children worked on the teen crisis text line. And, boy, I mean, they really had to learn how to counsel, what to do. They had to show up. But they learned a lot about, you know, other teens in crisis. They benefited from it, too. I had one of my kids worked out in the community in a homeless shelter, right. And was helping with the food services. So there are so many ways to help in our own backyard. And I always tell people, start there because you'll get attached to something and you'll start to see that your time absolutely can make a difference in somebody's life. Right. And even if you can't give much money or at the end of the year, you can give dollar 50 or dollar 100 to that organization. It does help. And so I just encourage people to start somewhere, even if it feels really small to them when they start.

You learn something from all those experiences.

Yeah. And I definitely found that. I think service is one of those things that. And I, you know, there's. It can be seen as the most selfless or the most selfish thing because it gives you. It's the best learning experience of learning about the challenges that exist. Learning that when you're part of solving a problem, you feel the solution is closer. Right. I think, like, you feel like there is a light at the end of the tunnel. There is a method, for sure. And, you know, service has given me so many gifts in my life, and therefore, I will never say it's been selfless because I've gained so much from it. But the biggest thing it's helped me understand is just that, yeah. When you feel you're part of solving a problem, it feels manageable, it feels possible. And seeing one person's life change is miraculous. And I think if we see it as statistics or dollars or numbers, then it will never feel like enough because numbers will never satisfy or make us feel like we won because we know there's more. But witnessing change through the eyes of one individual, I mean, nothing can compare to that, and you'd have no idea how many lives you've changed just through that impact.

And the great opportunity you gain to even have something to give, it's a privilege to you. It's such a. Someone's giving you the opportunity to serve. They've served you by giving you the opportunity. I think we often feel like we're helping others, but I've found so often that I'm fortunate enough that I'm even in that position that I can give that to someone.

Yeah. And you learn from those people, too. You learn culturally. You learn things that you wouldn't have known even about yourself. Right. There's a quote I love that I used in, actually, my high school graduation speech. It was by Ralph Waldo Emerson. And it ends by saying, to know that even one life has breathed easier because you have lived, that is to have succeeded. And so even for me, even though I was goal oriented, I wanted to do this and I wanted to do that. My definition of success was if somebody's breathed easier on this planet because I've lived, then my life was worth it. Right. And, you know, if you talk to anybody who does hospice at end of life, or if you've gotten to walk the end of life journey, which I've been fortunate enough to do with two people in very close, you realize that, you know, people want to know at the end of their life that they were loved by their family and friends and that they loved their family and friends in return, and that their life had some meaning, whatever that meaning is for them. And so I often think in the US, we have our definition of success wrong.

We look at these people who've made it an industry or made x amount of money, but no success is. Think of that teacher. If we all talk about who had the most impact in our lives, quite often people will talk about their parents or a teacher or a coach.

Totally.

And so think about it. A coach in a school doesn't make much money, but he or she has an enormous impact on the students that come through that high school.

Absolutely.

And play that sport. And so to me, there's enormous value in that. And those are the kinds of things we should be holding up in society.

I've had this dream, and maybe we'll speak about it another time, but I've had this dream for a long time in regards to that, because I grew up in a home where I remember where my extended family or family members would always want to wait for the Times rich list like that was published. And obviously then it was the Forbes rich list became the new thing. And then now we have the time 100 list, or whatever it may be. And I always dreamed, and I still have this dream that I want to do it one day, is I want to create a service list. And I'd love a service list to be published every year of individuals and groups of people who are doing the most service. And not only would I like it to be a list of the people who give the most money, I'd like them to nominate someone who works on the ground to be nominated to be on that list, totally because of the unknown names that not famous people, basically. They're doing amazing work around the world that I'm sure you know many of. And I've always had this dream that we could publish a service list every year, because I feel like if I grew up in a home where there was a service list on my table every year, I feel what we reward in society is what we repeat.

And I don't see service being rewarded or seen as an achievement yet, or it's seen as the achievement of a few. And until it becomes something that is accessible and open to many, we'll keep looking at the rich list and being blown away by that and thinking, that's the goal of life. It's hard to change that. If the only list that every major publication is publishing is the wealth list, how will we ever shift, shift what achievement is in the society?

So anyway, that is a really good idea, because, and again, the people doing the real work are the people who are giving of themselves and in service. And as you said, you see change, even change at a grassroots level. We all get so overwhelmed by these global problems, and they are overwhelming. But again, the only thing that's ever changed the world are groups of individuals coming together. We seem to forget that, you know? So, yeah, a service list would be.

Let's find a way to.

Okay, I know about 100 people I could put on that list. Amazing.

I love it. Well, let's find a way of figuring it out. Melinda, it's been such a joy talking to you today. You've been so kind and gracious with your time. We end every on purpose episode with a fast five. A final five, which have to be answered in one word to one sentence maximum. Okay, so, Melinda French gates, these are your final five. What is the best advice you've ever heard or received?

Be yourself.

Second question. What is the worst advice you've ever heard or received?

Act like this other person.

Third question. What is a lesson you learned?

The hard way I learned to be a better parent. When I stopped and would really listen to my kids, instead of being dictatorial. When I would stop and listen, I was so much better parent.

Question number four. What is a message you want to leave behind?

That there is so much potential in everybody, and we need to unlock that potential, break down the barriers and the biases there so we just can unlock all that amazing potential.

And fifth and final question, which we asked every guest who's ever been on the show, if you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be?

That for every place in life where you see a man in a position of power, that he would be accompanied by a woman or a person of color. Beautiful.

Melinda French gates, thank you so much for being with us here and on purpose today. Who's been listening or watching? Wherever you are in the world, please share with me and Melinda your greatest takeaways, the insights that stuck with you, the messages that you'll be passing on and sharing with your family and your friends. There were so many great insights today. I hope you find your spiritual community. I hope you find your counsel of wise advisors. I hope that you recognize that imposter syndrome can be beautiful and can be powerful, and that perfectionism is something that we can learn to embrace in order to recognize that our imperfections is what makes us human. It's what makes us real. It's what makes us feel like we can connect with others. Thank you so much to all of you, and a big thank to Melinda for being here today again. And thank you so much. Honestly, this was a wonderful conversation.

Thanks for having me. This is great. I really enjoyed it.

Thank you, Melinda. If you enjoyed this podcast, you're going to love my conversation with Michelle Obama, where she opens up on how to stay with your partner when they're changing and the four check ins you should be doing in your relationship. We also talk about how to deal with relationships when they're under stress. If you're going through something right now with your partner or someone you're seeing, this is the episode for you.

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